Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 1: You Are the Starless, I'm Katie, and I'm Eves.
Speaker 2: In today's episode, The Art of War, we embark on
Speaker 2: a journey to explore the often overlooked yet profoundly impactful
Speaker 2: role of black artists in warfare. From the trenches of
Speaker 2: World War II to the guerrilla warfare of Vietnam and
Speaker 2: the rubble of occupied Palestine, black artists have wielded their
Speaker 2: creativity as a poignant tool for expression, resistance, and change.
Speaker 1: These artists bring to light the stories that the smoke
Speaker 1: of war has obscured, but persist in the enduring canvases, melodies,
Speaker 1: and words of those who refuse to be silenced.
Speaker 2: These stories go beyond the visible scars of war and
Speaker 2: delve into the nuanced and air arratives only art can capture.
Speaker 1: As we find ourselves witnessing the genocide of Palestinians, it
Speaker 1: begs the question, what role does art play in the
Speaker 1: theater of war? And how have Black artists shaped the
Speaker 1: narratives that endure in the wake of conflict.
Speaker 2: The theater of war is a good way to put it.
Speaker 2: The powers that declare war have an agenda right, a
Speaker 2: message they're trying to convey. Like World War Two, the
Speaker 2: United States position was to foster democracy across the world.
Speaker 1: Despite the fact that Black Americans couldn't participate in sit democracy.
Speaker 2: And just like theater, there are sets. Both world wars
Speaker 2: were fought in the trenches, and now you'll see countries
Speaker 2: using drones, the costumes, read uniforms, the dialogue No.
Speaker 3: We don't negotiate with terrorists.
Speaker 2: It is a performance, and the actors are yes, soldiers
Speaker 2: and military officials, but often too civilians, civilians who have
Speaker 2: no say on how their lives will be impacted.
Speaker 1: So true war effects us on so many levels, down
Speaker 1: to family units and individuals.
Speaker 2: For sure, World War two's messaging lean heavily on what
Speaker 2: families and individuals could do on the home front to
Speaker 2: support the war effort, and black artists lent their talents
Speaker 2: to further that message.
Speaker 1: So black artists produced pro war propaganda during World War Two.
Speaker 4: They sure did.
Speaker 2: In fact, black artists were hired specifically to appeal to
Speaker 2: Black Americans. Take Charles Austen, for example, The Office of
Speaker 2: War Information hired him to create a series of motivational drawings,
Speaker 2: especially for African American newspapers during World War Two. His
Speaker 2: sketches ranged from famous black heroes to the necessity of
Speaker 2: growing fruits and vegetables at home, all in an attempt
Speaker 2: to boost morale and African American war contributions. Ease, Can
Speaker 2: you describe this sketch by Austin?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it says at the top, America needs your
Speaker 1: strength plan nutritious meals, and at the bottom it says,
Speaker 1: a well fed nation is a fighting nation. And then
Speaker 1: in the foreground you see a black family for people.
Speaker 1: In this family, there are two parents and a child,
Speaker 1: and the young child is holding a plane in his hands,
Speaker 1: and then there's a swallowed baby that the mother is holding,
Speaker 1: and they're all kind of looking up and off to
Speaker 1: the right like they're looking into the distance, kind of hopeful,
Speaker 1: also kind of forlorn, and the father is dressed in
Speaker 1: work clothing and he's holding a lunch box. In the background,
Speaker 1: at the very bottom, so that they're super small, you
Speaker 1: can see formations of soldiers with their weapons all lined up.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that the propaganda was so targeted.
Speaker 4: I mean, it makes sense.
Speaker 2: Many Black Americans were pretty ambivalent about the United States
Speaker 2: involvement in World War two, They felt it was impossible
Speaker 2: to fight for freedom abroad when black lives were not
Speaker 2: valued at home. That's a word like you want folks
Speaker 2: to risk life and limb to quote spread democracy. And
Speaker 2: we can't even sit at the front of the bus
Speaker 2: or go to certain restaurants or be hired at certain
Speaker 2: retailers like be Sefero right now. And that's where the
Speaker 2: double V campaign comes in. On February seventh, nineteen forty two,
Speaker 2: The Pittsburgh Courier, a weekly black newspaper, orchestrated the double
Speaker 2: V campaign, which stood for two victories for Black Americans,
Speaker 2: defeating fascism and Nazism abroad while also defeating Jim Crow
Speaker 2: in Inequality at home. And it's February fourteenth issue, the
Speaker 2: Courier stated.
Speaker 5: We have adopted the double V war cry, victory over
Speaker 5: our enemies at home and victory over our enemies on
Speaker 5: the battlefields abroad. Thus, in our fight for freedom, we
Speaker 5: wage a two pronged attack against our enslavers at home
Speaker 5: and those abroad who will enslave us. We have a
Speaker 5: stake in this fight. We are Americans too.
Speaker 1: The personification of about that action girl.
Speaker 2: Yes, And while Charles Austen was using his drawings as
Speaker 2: a way to count the ambivalence Black Americans felt about
Speaker 2: fighting for a country that constantly beat them down. Noted
Speaker 2: poet Langston Hughes drew inspiration from the Double V campaign
Speaker 2: and wrote the lyrics for Freedom's Road, with music by
Speaker 2: Emerson Harper and performed by Josh White. The catchy tune
Speaker 2: spoke directly about fighting fascism and Hitler, but also spoke
Speaker 2: to the dangerous Black Americans faced in their home country,
Speaker 2: with the lyrics united.
Speaker 6: We then divided, we fall. Let's make this land fameful
Speaker 6: one and all. I've got a message, and you know
Speaker 6: it's right, Black and white together, you night and fight.
Speaker 1: Did Langston Hughes ever say what his intent for Freedom's
Speaker 1: wrote was?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: When Freedom's Road came out, Hughes wrote in a letter
Speaker 2: that the songs dimmed from his concerned about how black
Speaker 2: soldiers were being treated in the South.
Speaker 4: He said, the lower southern elements resent colored boys in uniform,
Speaker 4: and so go out of their way often to be
Speaker 4: rude and unpleasant. He pointed out that it reflected poorly
Speaker 4: on the US government that even as they fought for
Speaker 4: freedom abroad, they couldn't protect their soldiers in certain parts
Speaker 4: of their own country. Hughes finished the letter by saying
Speaker 4: that he had a lot more to say, but Freedom's
Speaker 4: Road was the best he could do.
Speaker 1: I think as artists we can be our own harshest critics,
Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting that he said it was
Speaker 1: the best he could do. Like a lot of times,
Speaker 1: black people who created really potent and impactful works like
Speaker 1: downplay them. But I think Freedom's Road it was simple,
Speaker 1: but it was still a song that got the point
Speaker 1: across that he was concerned about how black people were
Speaker 1: being treated here, but we're still having to fight abroad.
Speaker 2: So while the art from black artists during World War
Speaker 2: two mostly had a positive spin with either outright pro
Speaker 2: war propaganda or the hopefulness of the Double V campaign,
Speaker 2: the sentiments from the Vietnam War and the art that
Speaker 2: came out of it were very different. We're on that
Speaker 2: after the break. So the Vietnam War was the first
Speaker 2: fully racially integrated American war. It lasted from nineteen fifty
Speaker 2: five to nineteen seventy five and was extremely unpopular.
Speaker 1: Who could forget Muhammad Ali's stance on the war.
Speaker 6: My concils don't let me go shoot my brother.
Speaker 5: Are some darker people?
Speaker 6: Are some four hundred people in the month for big
Speaker 6: powerful a.
Speaker 3: Miracle, and shoot them for what they never called me, Niga.
Speaker 1: It's similar to the concerns that the World War II
Speaker 1: propaganda was so desperately trying to.
Speaker 2: Squash YEP because black people were still facing discrimination and
Speaker 2: outright violence in the US, and Ali was not the
Speaker 2: only well known black person to speak out against the war.
Speaker 2: You got to remember that the nineteen sixties was a
Speaker 2: period of significant social upheaval, marked by the civil rights
Speaker 2: movement and the anti Vietnam War protests. Many black activists
Speaker 2: and leaders, including Martin Luther King Junior and Malcolm X,
Speaker 2: linked the fight for civil rights with opposition to the war.
Speaker 2: In March nineteen sixty five, King criticized the war during
Speaker 2: the Selma March when he told a journalist that quote
Speaker 2: millions of dollars can be spent every day to hold
Speaker 2: troops in South Vietnam, and our country cannot protect the
Speaker 2: rights of negroes in Selma. And two years later, during
Speaker 2: King's first anti war march in Chicago, he reinforced the
Speaker 2: connection between war abroad and injustice at home, stating quote,
Speaker 2: the bombs in Vietnam explode at home. They destroy the
Speaker 2: dream and possibility for a decent America.
Speaker 1: We are definitely seeing a thread of Black Americans connecting
Speaker 1: wars abroad to the treatment we face at home, like
Speaker 1: why would we help you harm people like y'all do us?
Speaker 2: And Initially African American troops had a much higher casualty
Speaker 2: rate than other ethnicities. In nineteen sixty five, nearly a
Speaker 2: quarter of troop casualties were black, which inspired Fred to
Speaker 2: pains Bring the Boys Home. In the song pain does
Speaker 2: it Min's words about the senseless violence of the Vietnam
Speaker 2: War and who is paying the ultimate price? She sings
Speaker 2: you marched them away. Pain song received a lot of
Speaker 2: airtime nationally. Billboard's May twenty second issue of nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: one named it the best new record.
Speaker 1: Of the week.
Speaker 2: By July of that year, the single reached number four
Speaker 2: on the Billboards Soul Singles chart. Bring the Boys Home
Speaker 2: spent thirteen weeks on the Hot one hundred, peaking at
Speaker 2: number twelve. But the protest anthem was banned by the
Speaker 2: American Forces Network because, according to them, it benefited the enemy.
Speaker 1: Benefited the enemy or gave hope to the soldiers who
Speaker 1: were fearing for their lives for a senseless war. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this song has a little bit more bite than the
Speaker 1: last song we talked about did the way that she
Speaker 1: expresses herself in the song, I think it's a little
Speaker 1: bit more exuberant, Like you can feel a lot of
Speaker 1: the sorrow and the desperate longing for them to come
Speaker 1: back in the way that she expresses herself in the song.
Speaker 1: Of course, I have all the other context of reasons
Speaker 1: for what my politics would be around around wanting them
Speaker 1: to come back home. But just from listening to this song,
Speaker 1: like I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of
Speaker 1: someone who hasn't decided what side they would be on, Like,
Speaker 1: I feel like I could listen to this song and think,
Speaker 1: maybe I need to think about this little a little
Speaker 1: bit more, Maybe I need to do a little bit
Speaker 1: more research, because this is clearly something that means a
Speaker 1: lot to her and so many other people.
Speaker 2: Had you heard this song before.
Speaker 1: I had heard this song before, but it's not like
Speaker 1: something I listened to all the time, and it's not
Speaker 1: something I heard in a long time. So it's a
Speaker 1: song that it could have applied to other wars, so
Speaker 1: it's something that can be applied universally as well. And
Speaker 1: I think that's a good thing about it, because it's
Speaker 1: a piece that can live on.
Speaker 2: So I had never heard this song before, and when
Speaker 2: I was doing the rece this song and then of
Speaker 2: course Marvin Gaye song What's going On came up, and
Speaker 2: then that one song like.
Speaker 1: Whoa huh, yeah, what is it good for?
Speaker 2: So both of those ones came up, But I went
Speaker 2: with this song because, like you said, you like you
Speaker 2: can hear the longing in her voice and you can
Speaker 2: tell she's like really means what she's singing. And I
Speaker 2: think because it was banned at one point, maybe.
Speaker 4: That's why I've never heard it before.
Speaker 2: As opposed to the other songs, I feel like What's
Speaker 2: going On it's just kind of a groove, you know
Speaker 2: what I'm saying, Like you can not know that it's
Speaker 2: about war if you're not really paid attention to the
Speaker 2: song or to the lyrics. And then like the other
Speaker 2: one is just kind of like you always hear the
Speaker 2: movies and it's like when people getting pumped up or whatever.
Speaker 2: But this song, it's like clearly about a war, that's unpopular.
Speaker 2: And when I was playing it out loud, my mom
Speaker 2: was saying how her mom would sing the song around
Speaker 2: the house while her dad was in Vietnam, and like
Speaker 2: that song to the people who were in Vietnam. It
Speaker 2: really gave them hope that people were wanting them to
Speaker 2: come back and were thinking about them while they were
Speaker 2: facing all this danger, like participating in this guerrilla warfare
Speaker 2: for what to stop the spread of communism. And to
Speaker 2: know that Black Americans were suffering disproportionately during the war,
Speaker 2: from the casualties, the injuries, the people that did end
Speaker 2: up coming back, the PTSD, it was all just like
Speaker 2: off the charts for these black soldiers. And her song
Speaker 2: really gets to that and gets like the feeling of
Speaker 2: what Black Americans were feeling for their family members, their friends,
Speaker 2: their neighbors who were in that war and really wanting
Speaker 2: them to make it out safely and get out of
Speaker 2: harm's way.
Speaker 1: So a couple of things considering you had never heard
Speaker 1: it before, so you went from never hearing it till
Speaker 1: knowing that your grandmother, Yeah, listen to it. I feel
Speaker 1: like that could bring up a lot of feelings.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it made me.
Speaker 2: Think about like what she was going through listening to
Speaker 2: that song, knowing that her children's father was there and
Speaker 2: you know, not wanting him to die, and seeing all
Speaker 2: the people coming back in body bags, because that's what
Speaker 2: was the impetus of this song, like seeing the black
Speaker 2: soldiers coming back in body bags. And I think at
Speaker 2: the time the average age of people dying for black
Speaker 2: soldiers dying was like twenty years old, because like people
Speaker 2: who really hadn't started their lives getting shipped off to a.
Speaker 4: War just to die.
Speaker 2: So yeah, knowing that she sung that around the house
Speaker 2: around my mom when she was how old my mom
Speaker 2: had been a little girl, not even in double digits yet, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that made me was like, oh wow, kind of like
Speaker 2: having that connection and kind of like stumbling upon the
Speaker 2: connection too, right, because that's kind of not something my
Speaker 2: mom would bring up unless she heard me listening to
Speaker 2: the song, you know.
Speaker 1: And speaking of death. That is something that was mentioned
Speaker 1: in the song. There's a part I can't remember the
Speaker 1: exact lyrics, but where she sings about seeing them in
Speaker 1: the sky and coming back home. So there was while
Speaker 1: there was hope in the lyrics of the song saying
Speaker 1: bring them back, you have to believe that they're going
Speaker 1: to make it through the war. But then there was
Speaker 1: also a part in the song that acknowledges a lot
Speaker 1: of these people may not come back at all if
Speaker 1: you get the body back, because a lot of people
Speaker 1: didn't even get that. They didn't get to see their children,
Speaker 1: their spouse, their cousin, you know, their uncle, whoever that,
Speaker 1: whoever that person was to them. They never even got
Speaker 1: to see them after they were deceased. Bring them back
Speaker 1: home before we never before they their home is no
Speaker 1: longer this home anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so definitely more pointed than the World War two example,
Speaker 2: But I think the thread of the sentiments of like
Speaker 2: why are we as black people doing this fighting was
Speaker 2: still very much present in Vietnam, and it wasn't something
Speaker 2: that we had to think about afterwards. I think sometimes
Speaker 2: like with wars, like like the invasion of Iraq, it's
Speaker 2: like a couple years later, we're like, oh, we need
Speaker 2: fucked up, But like Vietnam, it was like, nah, y'all
Speaker 2: fucking up right now, which I think is interesting and
Speaker 2: really did play into the art that was created during
Speaker 2: that time.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And it was a long war, so there
Speaker 1: was a lot of time to contemplate over.
Speaker 2: That, so the wars we've talked about up until now
Speaker 2: have been wars we weren't alive for.
Speaker 1: But there have been plenty of wars since.
Speaker 4: We were born, plenty.
Speaker 2: And now that our frontal loaves are finally fully developed,
Speaker 2: where witnessing yet another as Israel targets Palestinian civilians and
Speaker 2: reduces Palestine to rubble.
Speaker 1: But Israel's oppression of the Palestinians isn't a new phenomenon.
Speaker 4: Not at all.
Speaker 2: It dates back to nineteen forty eight, when Zonis forces
Speaker 2: declared the establishment of the State of Israel, triggering the
Speaker 2: first Arab Israeli war. Zinus military forces expelled at least
Speaker 2: seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinians from their homes and
Speaker 2: lands and captured seventy eight percent of historic Palestine. The
Speaker 2: remaining twenty two percent was divided into what are now
Speaker 2: the occupied West Bank and the besieged Gaza Strip.
Speaker 1: And I imagine Black artists have been speaking out like
Speaker 1: they did during previous wars. Yeah.
Speaker 2: A noted example is a poet June Jordan. Her poem
Speaker 2: Apologies to All the People in Lebanon, is dedicated to
Speaker 2: the six hundred thousand Palestinian men, women, and children who
Speaker 2: lived in Lebanon from nineteen forty eight to nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2: In the poem, Jordan speaks to the complicity of Americans
Speaker 2: who remain ignorant in silence as the Palestinian people suffered.
Speaker 2: She repeats the phrase I didn't know and nobody told
Speaker 2: me in what could I do or say anyway.
Speaker 1: A common refrain we hear today while discussing what's currently
Speaker 1: going on in Palestine.
Speaker 2: Yes, and this poem was originally written in the eighties,
Speaker 2: but it was striking to me how it could have
Speaker 2: been written today, Like.
Speaker 1: Which parts do you mean? Honestly all of it?
Speaker 2: Like there's a part where she's talking about the Zionists
Speaker 2: saying never again, referring to the Holocaust. But then on
Speaker 2: the same hand, they're making close to one million people
Speaker 2: in Palestine homeless and killing them and maiming them and
Speaker 2: bragging about their military accomplishments instead of seeing what they're doing,
Speaker 2: which is killing civilians, blowing up their homes, their hospitals,
Speaker 2: making sure that aid can't get to them. It's like
Speaker 2: what we're seeing right now.
Speaker 1: Thinking about the phrase she repeated, and how many people
Speaker 1: say the sources of the same things. Today was a
Speaker 1: call to self reflection, a call to question people and
Speaker 1: their capacity to be able to do research, a call
Speaker 1: to ask us what things we think we're responsible for
Speaker 1: and that we are not responsible for, and how we
Speaker 1: think about those things. And Yeah, I do think it
Speaker 1: is upon that crosses the barriers of time. And I
Speaker 1: can read that and sit there and think what could
Speaker 1: I do? What could I do? What could I do?
Speaker 1: Like I'm already reading this thing, so like what else
Speaker 1: could I read? She uses numbers, you know, she uses
Speaker 1: imagery specific to the devastation. So we get to think
Speaker 1: about what the demolishment looked like, we get to think
Speaker 1: about how many people, We get to think about the
Speaker 1: ages of the people, And in reading this today, we
Speaker 1: get to think about how many more people have been
Speaker 1: added to that account since this poem came out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and June Jordan, well, I don't think this poem
Speaker 2: ever got banned. She did speak about how speaking up
Speaker 2: for Palestinians, because this isn't the only poem that she's
Speaker 2: written that was talking about what's going on in Palestine.
Speaker 2: There's like a gap in her career where she couldn't
Speaker 2: get books published because she was so outspoken. There's one
Speaker 2: and since where she says, like I have become a Palestinian,
Speaker 2: Like that's how closely she felt was like their plight.
Speaker 2: She's like, I was born a black woman and I've
Speaker 2: become a Palestinian because she was like that much in
Speaker 2: solidarity with them. But yeah, I mean, and we see
Speaker 2: that now people speaking up about Palestine, like they're getting
Speaker 2: buyed from their jobs, like they can't publish what they
Speaker 2: we're publishing. So it's just interesting to see from the
Speaker 2: inception of this conflict to right now the same tactics
Speaker 2: from the Zionists and then the same tactics of like
Speaker 2: trying to silence people who are anti Zionists.
Speaker 1: We also see the repression of people sharing their anti
Speaker 1: Zionist messages yeah, and pro Palestinian messages. Yeah, very clearly,
Speaker 1: and not just from government but from agents of the
Speaker 1: government that weren't sanctioned by them but just want to
Speaker 1: do their bidding.
Speaker 2: Yes, like licking that brick baby, how it.
Speaker 1: Tastes salty, salty, bloody.
Speaker 2: Right after the break, we'll talk with Monet about how
Speaker 2: she shows solidarity with the palestinin people through her artistry.
Speaker 3: My name is Azamnet and I am a surrealist blues poet.
Speaker 2: We see that the Black artists has a long history
Speaker 2: of using their art to speak out against wars abroad.
Speaker 2: What do you think is behind that tradition?
Speaker 3: So if one is in touch and in alignment with
Speaker 3: one's values around you know, justice, freedom of quality, love, community, connection, liberation,
Speaker 3: then one must respond when those things are attacked or
Speaker 3: oppressed or violated. Any feeling sentient being that is investigating
Speaker 3: themselves but also their relationship to the people they love
Speaker 3: at some point comes to question how does the world
Speaker 3: reflect the values that they live by and that they
Speaker 3: love by, and what is disrupting them from being able
Speaker 3: to live out those values. It requires a certain kind
Speaker 3: of art to survive this setup we have here.
Speaker 1: You know, I know there's a lot of conversation around
Speaker 1: how desensitized we've been in so many different ways that
Speaker 1: we're constantly bombarded with these images of atrocities. What role
Speaker 1: does sensitivity play in the work that you do, and
Speaker 1: how you're able to enliven or awaken folks hearts, and
Speaker 1: how that relates to resistance work.
Speaker 3: We have to learn to be sensitive to each other,
Speaker 3: to understand and listen to each other's where we ache,
Speaker 3: where we where we aspire, where we imagine, where we envision,
Speaker 3: and where we suffer, where we struggle. I mean, all
Speaker 3: those things are determined based on our sensitivity to them,
Speaker 3: Our closeness, our proximity to the pain, our proximity to
Speaker 3: the healing dictates a lot of our strategies for our survival.
Speaker 3: We have normalized a society that is not aware or
Speaker 3: compassionate with the sensitivity of children, you know, which creates
Speaker 3: adults that are you know, terrifying. And so I think
Speaker 3: that that is why we need to be more than upset.
Speaker 3: We need to be intolerable with our disgust around what
Speaker 3: is happening to Palestinian children, What is happening to the
Speaker 3: children and Sudan, what is happening to the children in
Speaker 3: the Kongo. Yes, of course our elders matter. Yes, of
Speaker 3: course our you know, moms and fathers matter. But if
Speaker 3: we cannot protect if there's no sanctity of innocence of children,
Speaker 3: if we have yet to protect that, if that is
Speaker 3: being come up for negotiation, we are I don't think
Speaker 3: we're savable any child that is born is a new lesson,
Speaker 3: a new opportunity for us to grow, to evolve, to
Speaker 3: be more sensitive, to be more present, to be more aware.
Speaker 3: And if the youth today are telling us this is horrible,
Speaker 3: this is horrific, this is not okay, we must stop
Speaker 3: this and this now, and we cannot listen. You know,
Speaker 3: I think, I think I don't have to say much else.
Speaker 3: You know, we are seeing what that, what that is
Speaker 3: resulting in. And I'll say this. You know, I don't
Speaker 3: want any more children to die. I don't want anyone
Speaker 3: to die. But there are libraries in our children too.
Speaker 3: There is important technological information that is being wiped out
Speaker 3: right now for the future that is inevitable. And and
Speaker 3: you know, there is a there is a dark, There's
Speaker 3: a there is an evil in the world that is
Speaker 3: resisting every every possibility of being wiped out. You know,
Speaker 3: it's literally. This is why I think we're winning in
Speaker 3: the grand scheme of things, because the heart of humanity
Speaker 3: is awakening and people are our need to continue to
Speaker 3: rise in that truth of sensitive, vulnerable, aware presence with
Speaker 3: each other, collaboration, strategy for other ways of governing, other
Speaker 3: ways of loving. But I'm going to stop there because
Speaker 3: I could ramble forever.
Speaker 2: I love talking to poets. It feels like y'all just
Speaker 2: talk in poems. I'm like, oh, I love.
Speaker 1: I would not have considered that rambling at all. I
Speaker 1: was there with every single word.
Speaker 2: And you mentioned strategy, and I've heard you talk in
Speaker 2: TED talk about how the arts can be more integral
Speaker 2: and strategy and not just a prop for entertaining. Do
Speaker 2: you have examples of how you've seen that play out
Speaker 2: with Palestine.
Speaker 3: There's my poems, there's the ways that the world may
Speaker 3: see me as a visible, outspoken person. But there are
Speaker 3: things that a lot of work, a lot of work
Speaker 3: that has gone into all the many things that people
Speaker 3: don't see and they don't see being done as strategically
Speaker 3: as they have been. Let's put it that way, And
Speaker 3: there's a reason for that, because not every action we
Speaker 3: can announce. You know, look at what I did, Look
Speaker 3: at what happened, look at the way that this worked.
Speaker 3: You know, some things are effective for people to learn
Speaker 3: in the lessons, but our elders left enough for us
Speaker 3: to learn from. Some things. We have to we have
Speaker 3: to create and practice now and use what lessons have
Speaker 3: been given to us and create even if it fails,
Speaker 3: we must experiment, We must continue to try every possible
Speaker 3: avenue we can for for us to be free, you know,
Speaker 3: for us to love and live. So for me, that
Speaker 3: one that's most example, that's most visible was when we
Speaker 3: did our ted talk, which you were talking about with
Speaker 3: my my ex partner Phil. We did as he's you know,
Speaker 3: was a lover or comrade of mine, but also just
Speaker 3: an incredible you know, co conspirator. And one of the
Speaker 3: things that I think we really valued was the sanctity
Speaker 3: of our home. And I think in some ways we
Speaker 3: didn't understand boundaries around that, but we knew that there
Speaker 3: was that without certain resources, we could use that space
Speaker 3: two to gather people on one accord, under one roof.
Speaker 3: With with the love that we had for each other,
Speaker 3: we redistributed that into our into our communites, and we
Speaker 3: knew that we were gifted and had skills that we
Speaker 3: loved about each other and about ourselves and things that
Speaker 3: we wanted to see celebrated more in other people in
Speaker 3: our movement. That oftentimes the organizing space was seen as
Speaker 3: you know, how many in a very kind of sterile,
Speaker 3: pragmatic way of how many doors were knocked on how
Speaker 3: many people respire, how many members were, how many people
Speaker 3: showed up to a meeting, etc. But what were we
Speaker 3: pouring into people's hearts and minds? So that's truly what
Speaker 3: folks moves people, That's what stains people, That's what keeps
Speaker 3: people in the face of so much horror and adversity
Speaker 3: and torment and heartbreak. People need to be poured into.
Speaker 3: And while we have physical material conditions, our immaterial conditions
Speaker 3: are just as crucial. You know, we want our bread
Speaker 3: and our roses too, says the poem. You know, so
Speaker 3: I think that we need to remind each other that
Speaker 3: this isn't new, you know, this is a legacy or tradition.
Speaker 3: When I glean on Surrey being a surrealist blues poet,
Speaker 3: I think of the surrealist movement, what they were doing,
Speaker 3: what they were practicing in the imagination, what they were
Speaker 3: trying to organize and gather around, what ideas they were implementing.
Speaker 3: I think of the black arts movement, which is rooted
Speaker 3: in the blues, and you know, starts from the blues.
Speaker 3: You know, even though we don't talk about it, contextualize
Speaker 3: what the blues was an organizing strategy towards our response.
Speaker 3: It was our response towards our oppression, and it was
Speaker 3: a way that we felt deeply together we addressed the
Speaker 3: ailments and issues of our times, and it was a
Speaker 3: way that we masked and covered a lot of our
Speaker 3: issues without having to be so overt. So a love
Speaker 3: song about you know, a man who couldn't love us back,
Speaker 3: or a woman who couldn't who couldn't, who beats on
Speaker 3: us or doesn't take care of us is is seen
Speaker 3: as a song about a lover. But you know, little
Speaker 3: did we know that that was the way that people
Speaker 3: could hide messages about a system, about a politic, about
Speaker 3: a force. So, you know, a society that doesn't understand
Speaker 3: art doesn't receive the people that are not rooted and
Speaker 3: grounded in what is being done in the art is
Speaker 3: a lost people to people without a culture, without an idea.
Speaker 3: That's why the first thing they try to break when
Speaker 3: they colonize is our songs, our rituals, our spiritual practices,
Speaker 3: our belief systems, our language. All those things are crucial
Speaker 3: to our survival, to our liberation. So as long as
Speaker 3: we can continue to manifest those things, not for the
Speaker 3: goals and objection of validation by their institutions or the
Speaker 3: rewards of a very limited scope of our realities. Right,
Speaker 3: But to be in better communication with our people, to
Speaker 3: be in better cultivation and collaborate with the people. That's
Speaker 3: what the art should be, you know. It should be
Speaker 3: about being able to express things so that we can
Speaker 3: get to the nitty gritty of what it is that
Speaker 3: we are feeling and how we must address it. It's
Speaker 3: a diagnosis, it's not a prescription. It is a process
Speaker 3: by which we start to heal. This is why I
Speaker 3: think what makes art fundamentally strategic is when it's used
Speaker 3: as a practice and not a product. Yeah, when it's
Speaker 3: strategized around how do we create artistic process and practice
Speaker 3: in our movements rather than the objective being how we
Speaker 3: produce this thing for this event or this moment or
Speaker 3: this action or this campaign. No, how do we create
Speaker 3: more sentient people that understand the jewels and gems of
Speaker 3: the creative process. And then we can really resonate with
Speaker 3: the artists who have voted their lives to that craft,
Speaker 3: and we can say we see you, we receive you,
Speaker 3: we lift you up, not because you're divorcing us or
Speaker 3: you're making us escape our realities, but in fact, because
Speaker 3: you have gone into the depths of self and you
Speaker 3: have discovered there's so much more for us to experience
Speaker 3: here together, and you've given us a way through, a
Speaker 3: way out away, with a way beyond.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate how clear you are about that and
Speaker 1: your work, about how crucial artists are, about how es
Speaker 1: central and strategic their work is. And I was thinking
Speaker 1: about that when I was listening to your album, and
Speaker 1: specifically in a song for Sonya, and you have these
Speaker 1: two lines, and one of them is you say, who
Speaker 1: will feed our activists our organizer's freedom if not the poets?
Speaker 1: And then there's another line in that poem in which
Speaker 1: you say a strategy for organizing the heart. So there
Speaker 1: is just so much clarity in your work and speaking
Speaker 1: about the actual work that you're doing. And I was
Speaker 1: wondering about your process of conceiving of that poem and
Speaker 1: continuing to work on that for the album.
Speaker 3: Well, that poem came about right after Nipsey Hustle was
Speaker 3: murdered and I was invited to read a poem at
Speaker 3: Sonya Sanchez celebration for her, and I knew that a
Speaker 3: poem for Sonya would be bash She would be bashful,
Speaker 3: you know, she wouldn't be okay with me just going
Speaker 3: off and telling her how amazing she is. And so
Speaker 3: I had to find a way for me. I thought
Speaker 3: the best way to honor her was to honor the
Speaker 3: moment and to honor the current story of what it
Speaker 3: is to organize and be a poet at this time.
Speaker 3: We glorify the past and romanticize it often, but I
Speaker 3: think that there's lessons that we learned, and you know,
Speaker 3: there's things that I love about how we we wrote
Speaker 3: and created, and there's things that need to change. You
Speaker 3: need to develop and evolve, and so I think that
Speaker 3: poem was about my struggle not just with the poetry community,
Speaker 3: but with the movement.
Speaker 2: You had align that said, great art is not a monologue.
Speaker 2: Great art is a dialogue between the artists and the people.
Speaker 2: And I was wondering what dialogue were you having about
Speaker 2: Palestine when you first became aware of what was going on?
Speaker 2: And then how has that dialogue evolved as times has
Speaker 2: gone on.
Speaker 3: Well, there are moments that poems serve a purpose and
Speaker 3: there's moments that they have real limitations. And I struggle
Speaker 3: with that, you know, I struggle with the struggle of that.
Speaker 3: So when I came back from Palestine, while the expectation
Speaker 3: was that I would write all this work about it,
Speaker 3: and I in some ways I regret that I had,
Speaker 3: and I thought that I should have wrote all these
Speaker 3: essays and all these things that June Jordan had done
Speaker 3: that I was like, ah, but she did that, you know.
Speaker 3: So to me, Palestine radicalized me. Visiting Palestine radicalized me
Speaker 3: in a way that had not been before. And I
Speaker 3: was disappointed in the poetry community. I was discouraged by poems.
Speaker 3: I was disgusted by the pursuit of you know, individual
Speaker 3: you know careers. I didn't understand how else to exemplify
Speaker 3: my anguish and my frustration until I came back and
Speaker 3: met my partner Philip in Palestine and we learned some
Speaker 3: invaluable lessons together. But for me, it was really rooted
Speaker 3: in the love that was shared with Palestinian people. The compassion,
Speaker 3: the heartbreak, the joy, the anger, I mean, all these
Speaker 3: things that were deeply no longer just an issue outside
Speaker 3: of me. Over there, those people is an intimate part
Speaker 3: of my life, and I now had a full understanding.
Speaker 3: So for me coming back, I was I wrote poems,
Speaker 3: you know, there's a poem. There's poems in my book.
Speaker 3: My mother was a freedom fighter about it. And but
Speaker 3: I was. I was on one, you know, I was
Speaker 3: going to every possible pro Palestine panel, discussion event, you know, organizing,
Speaker 3: meaning that I was that I was invited to anything
Speaker 3: that people asked me to do. I to the to
Speaker 3: the point of, you know, great exhaustion, But I but
Speaker 3: I was on it, you know, And I believe Palestine
Speaker 3: would be free in all lifetime, you know. And I
Speaker 3: think the naivete of my conviction is part of what worked.
Speaker 2: Can you think a little bit more to what radicalized
Speaker 2: you from the lens of a black person from America?
Speaker 3: Because I know a lot of.
Speaker 2: People are like, why are are y'all worried about Palestinians?
Speaker 2: They're not black? So what was it about going there
Speaker 2: that really radicalized you in that moment?
Speaker 3: That's some bullshit. Okay, Nothing discussed me more than when
Speaker 3: people respond to outrage or injustice with what about me?
Speaker 3: What about my injustice? What about what I went through?
Speaker 3: It's just ridiculous, you know, how about and and we're
Speaker 3: going through this too. Look at how this is connected,
Speaker 3: Look at how this is different for me. I didn't
Speaker 3: look to Palestine and be like, well, you know what,
Speaker 3: everything they're experiencing we're experiencing. There was no way what
Speaker 3: is happening in Palestine was extremely vastly different than what
Speaker 3: we experience in the States. While there are similarities and
Speaker 3: there are connections to our oppression, that's not why I went.
Speaker 3: That's why Ahmed Abusne tried to organize a delegation because
Speaker 3: he wanted, as someone who had been organizing with black
Speaker 3: people in the state of Florida, he wanted to make
Speaker 3: it clear that he was committed to black liberation because
Speaker 3: his people were also committed to their liberation, and that
Speaker 3: he wanted to make sure that we saw that connection
Speaker 3: for him in his personal life. So this was a
Speaker 3: personal relationship. But you know, the first time I think
Speaker 3: relationships is how we get organized. It's not because all
Speaker 3: these facts on a paper and some articles you see
Speaker 3: or posts on Instagram. We get organized, We get involved,
Speaker 3: We get invested, invested because we feel and we see
Speaker 3: our our lives tied up with others. We see our
Speaker 3: dreams and visions and joys and aspirations tied up with others,
Speaker 3: our struggles that is where the organized comes in. So
Speaker 3: for me, when I was a young poet, I learned
Speaker 3: about Palestine through another young poet, to Honey Solla. We
Speaker 3: were fourteen fifteen years old, running through open mics with
Speaker 3: our hearts on our sleeves, talking about the issues of
Speaker 3: injustice that we were facing and the things that it
Speaker 3: brought us outrage and the anger towards those things and
Speaker 3: the heartbreak, and we were convinced, we were convinced our
Speaker 3: poems were going to change the world, that people were
Speaker 3: going to understand that. Clearly it is obvious what is
Speaker 3: happening and how horrible and horrific it is. Clearly any
Speaker 3: feeling sentient being could see what harm is being done
Speaker 3: and saying, no, this is wrong. If it happens here,
Speaker 3: and if it happens anywhere, it's happening here, it happens anywhere.
Speaker 3: It's you know, it's an issue, it's an issue, it's
Speaker 3: our issue. It's all our issue. So yeah, we dealt
Speaker 3: with that. We dealt with people on the delegation who
Speaker 3: were like, well, what about Africans and what about the
Speaker 3: way Arabs treat Africans, And let me tell you, it
Speaker 3: is a struggle no relationship. Tell me a relationship you've
Speaker 3: been in that hasn't been a struggle. Tell me a love,
Speaker 3: a lover you've loved that you haven't argued tooth and
Speaker 3: nail until you couldn't do anything else but hug and
Speaker 3: hold them and kiss them and just say, you know what,
Speaker 3: I don't want to I don't want to disagree with you.
Speaker 3: I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to
Speaker 3: argue with you. I just want to be understood. I
Speaker 3: just want to express where I'm coming from and why
Speaker 3: this hurts so bad. And until we can get to
Speaker 3: the root of our feelings rather than being reactionary, I
Speaker 3: don't think we can truly tap into our humanity. And
Speaker 3: so that's where the solidarity lives. The solidarity lives, and
Speaker 3: I shared, you know, values around the quality of life
Speaker 3: for all people. If I want to be free, if
Speaker 3: I know what it's like to see people devalue, belittle, oppressed,
Speaker 3: locked up, persecuted, shot done dead in the streets, and
Speaker 3: I see that, and I have a heart, and we
Speaker 3: want people to stop this. We want people to be
Speaker 3: moved to say this is wrong. Who are we to
Speaker 3: not see that somewhere else? And say no, this is wrong.
Speaker 3: If we want other people to be as motivated in
Speaker 3: our struggle, in our and our and our issues, then
Speaker 3: we must be motivated about each other's you know, pains
Speaker 3: and and and and and injustices and struggles. So like Palestine,
Speaker 3: you know, it was, It's crazy. There's nothing like it.
Speaker 3: You can't. You know, the Congo has its struggle, Haiti
Speaker 3: has its struggle. Poverty is a is a genocide in
Speaker 3: and of itself across the globe, and it's and it's rampant,
Speaker 3: and colonization has its fucking dirty hands all over it.
Speaker 3: But if you really understand what's happening in Palestine, if
Speaker 3: you go and you witness, I mean, it's a kind
Speaker 3: of evil that is so specific, and it's so targeted,
Speaker 3: it's so strategic, it's so transactional, it's so contrived, it's
Speaker 3: so evil that, I mean, if it could happen there,
Speaker 3: you wonder, like, how can I coexist with anyone who
Speaker 3: believes that this is okay? Clearly, if they think it's
Speaker 3: okay there, they're going to think it's okay here. You know,
Speaker 3: And young people, Jewish people are being radicalized and seeing
Speaker 3: what's wrong. I mean, I learned from being in conversations
Speaker 3: with JVP and Jewish voices for peace and you know,
Speaker 3: seeing what if not now is doing. I mean, the
Speaker 3: world wants something else. The world is demanding a different
Speaker 3: kind of sensitivity to our interconnectedness, to our relationships being here,
Speaker 3: and so black people need to get on board, get
Speaker 3: on board or get left. You know, the train is
Speaker 3: not waiting. You know, people get ready for a train
Speaker 3: is coming.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: All right. So I know Aza that you have a
Speaker 1: book coming out Florida Water. I was wondering if you
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about that a little bit or anything
Speaker 1: else you would like to shout out as we close
Speaker 1: out here.
Speaker 3: No, I think that's the book will be out when
Speaker 3: it comes out, hopefully soon. But there's a song that
Speaker 3: will probably come out in February, a poem for the
Speaker 3: kids who live and I'm looking forward to that being
Speaker 3: in the world. And I'm really just looking forward to
Speaker 3: collaborating with more intentional musicians and you know, creatives to
Speaker 3: make the next thing. So keeping my head head in
Speaker 3: the work and hopefully the right energy will gravitate towards
Speaker 3: the work and allow for more creative, innovative things to
Speaker 3: be made as a poet, I want to take the
Speaker 3: poetry into places that I have not yet been able to,
Speaker 3: so I'm strategizing around that. And then of course I'm
Speaker 3: also the artistic creative director of an organization called v Day,
Speaker 3: which works to end violence against women and girls. And
Speaker 3: there's an audio play that we created called Voices that
Speaker 3: we launched in Ghana in last December twenty two and
Speaker 3: so we're looking to launch that this year in the States.
Speaker 3: That is you know, anchored around Black women's stories of
Speaker 3: the diaspora and the continent. So that's something I'm very
Speaker 3: much excited about, which is still rooted an artistic practice,
Speaker 3: but is more about lifting up other voices as well
Speaker 3: as it's you know, the vision that I've created, but
Speaker 3: it's really anchored by the voices of women across the globe.
Speaker 3: So I'm really looking forward to that being in the
Speaker 3: world more publicly.
Speaker 2: And now it's time for role credits, the segment where
Speaker 2: we give credit to a person, place, or thing that
Speaker 2: we encountered during the week. And we have Aja with
Speaker 2: us joining us for this segment. Who are what would
Speaker 2: you like to give credit to?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if I'm going to give credit to
Speaker 3: anyone or anything. I think the most immediate thing is Daphne.
Speaker 3: I'm just a constantly an utter on gratitude for her
Speaker 3: support and her love of the work that I've been
Speaker 3: doing for years and without that. She's more than a manager.
Speaker 3: She's my sister, she's my friend, she's my comrade. And
Speaker 3: there are many days when I want to give up
Speaker 3: and feel very discouraged and very alone, and she's a
Speaker 3: real one, and so I'm just constantly and awed and
Speaker 3: ingratitude of her. So I think the rollout credits will
Speaker 3: go to her.
Speaker 2: Eves who are what would you like to give credit to?
Speaker 1: I want to give credit to Travel because we had
Speaker 1: a lovely conversation with Aja, and Ija talked about how
Speaker 1: going to Palestine radicalized her. And I think going to
Speaker 1: different places and experiencing new people and actually getting to
Speaker 1: know them, actually learning about the history, listening to things
Speaker 1: that people have to say, reading their works, experiencing their art,
Speaker 1: all of those things, but like deeply witnessing and experiencing
Speaker 1: a place versus just touching it on the surface as
Speaker 1: a person who's an outsider, is a really nice thing
Speaker 1: to do. And of course there's so many things that
Speaker 1: come with travel, like accessibility and money and environmental impact
Speaker 1: and all those things. But at the root of it
Speaker 1: all is extending ourselves beyond where we've been, learning new things,
Speaker 1: being new in general, and talking to other people, like
Speaker 1: being with other people. And I think that it was
Speaker 1: clear that that experience, you know, really affected Aja. But
Speaker 1: just it's nice to be able to give credit to
Speaker 1: it here because it's a way that we can get
Speaker 1: more in touch with our sensitivity and our feelings and
Speaker 1: our knowledge basis and our power.
Speaker 2: I would like to give credit to My credit is
Speaker 2: also influenced by Aja a conversation with Azja. I want
Speaker 2: to give credit to babies. There's so many babies in
Speaker 2: my life right now, and they're just so it's so
Speaker 2: cool to like see someone like grow up like from
Speaker 2: like day one. Loki and I could definitely tell Ojia
Speaker 2: was passionate about children, and they are so innocent and
Speaker 2: it is our job to protect them. So I just
Speaker 2: want to give credit to all the babies out there,
Speaker 2: especially the ones in my immediate circle. Gay Gay, thank
Speaker 2: you so much for joining us, Aja, this was a
Speaker 2: great conversation. We really appreciate you.
Speaker 3: Thank you, guys, Thank you.
Speaker 1: And Next week, we'll be continuing this conversation about art,
Speaker 1: war and resistance in a different way. We'll be talking
Speaker 1: about protest songs, so tune in if you want to
Speaker 1: hear more.
Speaker 2: We will see y'all next week.
Speaker 1: Bye, y'all. Hi on Theme is a production of iHeartRadio
Speaker 1: and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves
Speaker 1: Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You
Speaker 1: can also send us an email at Hello at on
Speaker 1: Theme dot show. Head to on Themet Show to check
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