1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 2 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: You Are the Starless, I'm Katie, and I'm Eves. 3 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: In today's episode, The Art of War, we embark on 4 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: a journey to explore the often overlooked yet profoundly impactful 5 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: role of black artists in warfare. From the trenches of 6 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: World War II to the guerrilla warfare of Vietnam and 7 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,639 Speaker 2: the rubble of occupied Palestine, black artists have wielded their 8 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: creativity as a poignant tool for expression, resistance, and change. 9 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: These artists bring to light the stories that the smoke 10 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: of war has obscured, but persist in the enduring canvases, melodies, 11 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: and words of those who refuse to be silenced. 12 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: These stories go beyond the visible scars of war and 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: delve into the nuanced and air arratives only art can capture. 14 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: As we find ourselves witnessing the genocide of Palestinians, it 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: begs the question, what role does art play in the 16 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: theater of war? And how have Black artists shaped the 17 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: narratives that endure in the wake of conflict. 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: The theater of war is a good way to put it. 19 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: The powers that declare war have an agenda right, a 20 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: message they're trying to convey. Like World War Two, the 21 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 2: United States position was to foster democracy across the world. 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: Despite the fact that Black Americans couldn't participate in sit democracy. 23 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 2: And just like theater, there are sets. Both world wars 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 2: were fought in the trenches, and now you'll see countries 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: using drones, the costumes, read uniforms, the dialogue No. 26 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: We don't negotiate with terrorists. 27 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: It is a performance, and the actors are yes, soldiers 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: and military officials, but often too civilians, civilians who have 29 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: no say on how their lives will be impacted. 30 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: So true war effects us on so many levels, down 31 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: to family units and individuals. 32 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 2: For sure, World War two's messaging lean heavily on what 33 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: families and individuals could do on the home front to 34 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 2: support the war effort, and black artists lent their talents 35 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: to further that message. 36 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: So black artists produced pro war propaganda during World War Two. 37 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 4: They sure did. 38 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: In fact, black artists were hired specifically to appeal to 39 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: Black Americans. Take Charles Austen, for example, The Office of 40 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: War Information hired him to create a series of motivational drawings, 41 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: especially for African American newspapers during World War Two. His 42 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: sketches ranged from famous black heroes to the necessity of 43 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: growing fruits and vegetables at home, all in an attempt 44 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 2: to boost morale and African American war contributions. Ease, Can 45 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 2: you describe this sketch by Austin? 46 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it says at the top, America needs your 47 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: strength plan nutritious meals, and at the bottom it says, 48 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 1: a well fed nation is a fighting nation. And then 49 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: in the foreground you see a black family for people. 50 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: In this family, there are two parents and a child, 51 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: and the young child is holding a plane in his hands, 52 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: and then there's a swallowed baby that the mother is holding, 53 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: and they're all kind of looking up and off to 54 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: the right like they're looking into the distance, kind of hopeful, 55 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: also kind of forlorn, and the father is dressed in 56 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: work clothing and he's holding a lunch box. In the background, 57 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: at the very bottom, so that they're super small, you 58 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: can see formations of soldiers with their weapons all lined up. 59 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: And it's interesting that the propaganda was so targeted. 60 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 4: I mean, it makes sense. 61 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: Many Black Americans were pretty ambivalent about the United States 62 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: involvement in World War two, They felt it was impossible 63 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: to fight for freedom abroad when black lives were not 64 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 2: valued at home. That's a word like you want folks 65 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: to risk life and limb to quote spread democracy. And 66 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: we can't even sit at the front of the bus 67 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: or go to certain restaurants or be hired at certain 68 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 2: retailers like be Sefero right now. And that's where the 69 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: double V campaign comes in. On February seventh, nineteen forty two, 70 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: The Pittsburgh Courier, a weekly black newspaper, orchestrated the double 71 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: V campaign, which stood for two victories for Black Americans, 72 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: defeating fascism and Nazism abroad while also defeating Jim Crow 73 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 2: in Inequality at home. And it's February fourteenth issue, the 74 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: Courier stated. 75 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 5: We have adopted the double V war cry, victory over 76 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 5: our enemies at home and victory over our enemies on 77 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 5: the battlefields abroad. Thus, in our fight for freedom, we 78 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,239 Speaker 5: wage a two pronged attack against our enslavers at home 79 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 5: and those abroad who will enslave us. We have a 80 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 5: stake in this fight. We are Americans too. 81 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: The personification of about that action girl. 82 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 2: Yes, And while Charles Austen was using his drawings as 83 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: a way to count the ambivalence Black Americans felt about 84 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 2: fighting for a country that constantly beat them down. Noted 85 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: poet Langston Hughes drew inspiration from the Double V campaign 86 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: and wrote the lyrics for Freedom's Road, with music by 87 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: Emerson Harper and performed by Josh White. The catchy tune 88 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 2: spoke directly about fighting fascism and Hitler, but also spoke 89 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 2: to the dangerous Black Americans faced in their home country, 90 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: with the lyrics united. 91 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 6: We then divided, we fall. Let's make this land fameful 92 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 6: one and all. I've got a message, and you know 93 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 6: it's right, Black and white together, you night and fight. 94 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: Did Langston Hughes ever say what his intent for Freedom's 95 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: wrote was? 96 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. 97 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,799 Speaker 2: When Freedom's Road came out, Hughes wrote in a letter 98 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: that the songs dimmed from his concerned about how black 99 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: soldiers were being treated in the South. 100 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 4: He said, the lower southern elements resent colored boys in uniform, 101 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 4: and so go out of their way often to be 102 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 4: rude and unpleasant. He pointed out that it reflected poorly 103 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 4: on the US government that even as they fought for 104 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 4: freedom abroad, they couldn't protect their soldiers in certain parts 105 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 4: of their own country. Hughes finished the letter by saying 106 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 4: that he had a lot more to say, but Freedom's 107 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 4: Road was the best he could do. 108 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: I think as artists we can be our own harshest critics, 109 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting that he said it was 110 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: the best he could do. Like a lot of times, 111 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: black people who created really potent and impactful works like 112 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: downplay them. But I think Freedom's Road it was simple, 113 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: but it was still a song that got the point 114 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: across that he was concerned about how black people were 115 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: being treated here, but we're still having to fight abroad. 116 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: So while the art from black artists during World War 117 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: two mostly had a positive spin with either outright pro 118 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 2: war propaganda or the hopefulness of the Double V campaign, 119 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 2: the sentiments from the Vietnam War and the art that 120 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: came out of it were very different. We're on that 121 00:06:54,240 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: after the break. So the Vietnam War was the first 122 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: fully racially integrated American war. It lasted from nineteen fifty 123 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: five to nineteen seventy five and was extremely unpopular. 124 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: Who could forget Muhammad Ali's stance on the war. 125 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 6: My concils don't let me go shoot my brother. 126 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 5: Are some darker people? 127 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 6: Are some four hundred people in the month for big 128 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 6: powerful a. 129 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 3: Miracle, and shoot them for what they never called me, Niga. 130 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: It's similar to the concerns that the World War II 131 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: propaganda was so desperately trying to. 132 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: Squash YEP because black people were still facing discrimination and 133 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: outright violence in the US, and Ali was not the 134 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: only well known black person to speak out against the war. 135 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: You got to remember that the nineteen sixties was a 136 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: period of significant social upheaval, marked by the civil rights 137 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: movement and the anti Vietnam War protests. Many black activists 138 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: and leaders, including Martin Luther King Junior and Malcolm X, 139 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: linked the fight for civil rights with opposition to the war. 140 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: In March nineteen sixty five, King criticized the war during 141 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: the Selma March when he told a journalist that quote 142 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: millions of dollars can be spent every day to hold 143 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: troops in South Vietnam, and our country cannot protect the 144 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: rights of negroes in Selma. And two years later, during 145 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: King's first anti war march in Chicago, he reinforced the 146 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: connection between war abroad and injustice at home, stating quote, 147 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: the bombs in Vietnam explode at home. They destroy the 148 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: dream and possibility for a decent America. 149 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: We are definitely seeing a thread of Black Americans connecting 150 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: wars abroad to the treatment we face at home, like 151 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: why would we help you harm people like y'all do us? 152 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: And Initially African American troops had a much higher casualty 153 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: rate than other ethnicities. In nineteen sixty five, nearly a 154 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: quarter of troop casualties were black, which inspired Fred to 155 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: pains Bring the Boys Home. In the song pain does 156 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 2: it Min's words about the senseless violence of the Vietnam 157 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 2: War and who is paying the ultimate price? She sings 158 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 2: you marched them away. Pain song received a lot of 159 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: airtime nationally. Billboard's May twenty second issue of nineteen seventy 160 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: one named it the best new record. 161 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: Of the week. 162 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 2: By July of that year, the single reached number four 163 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: on the Billboards Soul Singles chart. Bring the Boys Home 164 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 2: spent thirteen weeks on the Hot one hundred, peaking at 165 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: number twelve. But the protest anthem was banned by the 166 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 2: American Forces Network because, according to them, it benefited the enemy. 167 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: Benefited the enemy or gave hope to the soldiers who 168 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: were fearing for their lives for a senseless war. Yeah, 169 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: this song has a little bit more bite than the 170 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: last song we talked about did the way that she 171 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: expresses herself in the song, I think it's a little 172 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: bit more exuberant, Like you can feel a lot of 173 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: the sorrow and the desperate longing for them to come 174 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: back in the way that she expresses herself in the song. 175 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: Of course, I have all the other context of reasons 176 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: for what my politics would be around around wanting them 177 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: to come back home. But just from listening to this song, 178 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: like I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of 179 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: someone who hasn't decided what side they would be on, Like, 180 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: I feel like I could listen to this song and think, 181 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: maybe I need to think about this little a little 182 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: bit more, Maybe I need to do a little bit 183 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: more research, because this is clearly something that means a 184 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: lot to her and so many other people. 185 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: Had you heard this song before. 186 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: I had heard this song before, but it's not like 187 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: something I listened to all the time, and it's not 188 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: something I heard in a long time. So it's a 189 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: song that it could have applied to other wars, so 190 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: it's something that can be applied universally as well. And 191 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: I think that's a good thing about it, because it's 192 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: a piece that can live on. 193 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: So I had never heard this song before, and when 194 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 2: I was doing the rece this song and then of 195 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 2: course Marvin Gaye song What's going On came up, and 196 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 2: then that one song like. 197 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: Whoa huh, yeah, what is it good for? 198 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: So both of those ones came up, But I went 199 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: with this song because, like you said, you like you 200 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 2: can hear the longing in her voice and you can 201 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: tell she's like really means what she's singing. And I 202 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 2: think because it was banned at one point, maybe. 203 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 4: That's why I've never heard it before. 204 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 2: As opposed to the other songs, I feel like What's 205 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: going On it's just kind of a groove, you know 206 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: what I'm saying, Like you can not know that it's 207 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: about war if you're not really paid attention to the 208 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: song or to the lyrics. And then like the other 209 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: one is just kind of like you always hear the 210 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: movies and it's like when people getting pumped up or whatever. 211 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: But this song, it's like clearly about a war, that's unpopular. 212 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: And when I was playing it out loud, my mom 213 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: was saying how her mom would sing the song around 214 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: the house while her dad was in Vietnam, and like 215 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: that song to the people who were in Vietnam. It 216 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: really gave them hope that people were wanting them to 217 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 2: come back and were thinking about them while they were 218 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 2: facing all this danger, like participating in this guerrilla warfare 219 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: for what to stop the spread of communism. And to 220 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: know that Black Americans were suffering disproportionately during the war, 221 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 2: from the casualties, the injuries, the people that did end 222 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: up coming back, the PTSD, it was all just like 223 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: off the charts for these black soldiers. And her song 224 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 2: really gets to that and gets like the feeling of 225 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: what Black Americans were feeling for their family members, their friends, 226 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: their neighbors who were in that war and really wanting 227 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 2: them to make it out safely and get out of 228 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 2: harm's way. 229 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: So a couple of things considering you had never heard 230 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: it before, so you went from never hearing it till 231 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: knowing that your grandmother, Yeah, listen to it. I feel 232 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: like that could bring up a lot of feelings. 233 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, it made me. 234 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: Think about like what she was going through listening to 235 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: that song, knowing that her children's father was there and 236 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 2: you know, not wanting him to die, and seeing all 237 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: the people coming back in body bags, because that's what 238 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 2: was the impetus of this song, like seeing the black 239 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 2: soldiers coming back in body bags. And I think at 240 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: the time the average age of people dying for black 241 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: soldiers dying was like twenty years old, because like people 242 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: who really hadn't started their lives getting shipped off to a. 243 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 4: War just to die. 244 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, knowing that she sung that around the house 245 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 2: around my mom when she was how old my mom 246 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 2: had been a little girl, not even in double digits yet, Yeah, 247 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: that made me was like, oh wow, kind of like 248 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: having that connection and kind of like stumbling upon the 249 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 2: connection too, right, because that's kind of not something my 250 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 2: mom would bring up unless she heard me listening to 251 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: the song, you know. 252 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: And speaking of death. That is something that was mentioned 253 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: in the song. There's a part I can't remember the 254 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: exact lyrics, but where she sings about seeing them in 255 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: the sky and coming back home. So there was while 256 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: there was hope in the lyrics of the song saying 257 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: bring them back, you have to believe that they're going 258 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: to make it through the war. But then there was 259 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: also a part in the song that acknowledges a lot 260 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: of these people may not come back at all if 261 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: you get the body back, because a lot of people 262 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: didn't even get that. They didn't get to see their children, 263 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: their spouse, their cousin, you know, their uncle, whoever that, 264 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: whoever that person was to them. They never even got 265 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: to see them after they were deceased. Bring them back 266 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: home before we never before they their home is no 267 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: longer this home anymore. 268 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so definitely more pointed than the World War two example, 269 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: But I think the thread of the sentiments of like 270 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: why are we as black people doing this fighting was 271 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: still very much present in Vietnam, and it wasn't something 272 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: that we had to think about afterwards. I think sometimes 273 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 2: like with wars, like like the invasion of Iraq, it's 274 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: like a couple years later, we're like, oh, we need 275 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: fucked up, But like Vietnam, it was like, nah, y'all 276 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: fucking up right now, which I think is interesting and 277 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: really did play into the art that was created during 278 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 2: that time. 279 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And it was a long war, so there 280 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: was a lot of time to contemplate over. 281 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: That, so the wars we've talked about up until now 282 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: have been wars we weren't alive for. 283 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: But there have been plenty of wars since. 284 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 4: We were born, plenty. 285 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: And now that our frontal loaves are finally fully developed, 286 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: where witnessing yet another as Israel targets Palestinian civilians and 287 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: reduces Palestine to rubble. 288 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: But Israel's oppression of the Palestinians isn't a new phenomenon. 289 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 4: Not at all. 290 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: It dates back to nineteen forty eight, when Zonis forces 291 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: declared the establishment of the State of Israel, triggering the 292 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: first Arab Israeli war. Zinus military forces expelled at least 293 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinians from their homes and 294 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 2: lands and captured seventy eight percent of historic Palestine. The 295 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 2: remaining twenty two percent was divided into what are now 296 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: the occupied West Bank and the besieged Gaza Strip. 297 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: And I imagine Black artists have been speaking out like 298 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: they did during previous wars. Yeah. 299 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 2: A noted example is a poet June Jordan. Her poem 300 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: Apologies to All the People in Lebanon, is dedicated to 301 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: the six hundred thousand Palestinian men, women, and children who 302 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 2: lived in Lebanon from nineteen forty eight to nineteen eighty three. 303 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: In the poem, Jordan speaks to the complicity of Americans 304 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: who remain ignorant in silence as the Palestinian people suffered. 305 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: She repeats the phrase I didn't know and nobody told 306 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: me in what could I do or say anyway. 307 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: A common refrain we hear today while discussing what's currently 308 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: going on in Palestine. 309 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: Yes, and this poem was originally written in the eighties, 310 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: but it was striking to me how it could have 311 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 2: been written today, Like. 312 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: Which parts do you mean? Honestly all of it? 313 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: Like there's a part where she's talking about the Zionists 314 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: saying never again, referring to the Holocaust. But then on 315 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 2: the same hand, they're making close to one million people 316 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: in Palestine homeless and killing them and maiming them and 317 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 2: bragging about their military accomplishments instead of seeing what they're doing, 318 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: which is killing civilians, blowing up their homes, their hospitals, 319 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 2: making sure that aid can't get to them. It's like 320 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: what we're seeing right now. 321 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: Thinking about the phrase she repeated, and how many people 322 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: say the sources of the same things. Today was a 323 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: call to self reflection, a call to question people and 324 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: their capacity to be able to do research, a call 325 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: to ask us what things we think we're responsible for 326 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: and that we are not responsible for, and how we 327 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: think about those things. And Yeah, I do think it 328 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: is upon that crosses the barriers of time. And I 329 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: can read that and sit there and think what could 330 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: I do? What could I do? What could I do? 331 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: Like I'm already reading this thing, so like what else 332 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: could I read? She uses numbers, you know, she uses 333 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: imagery specific to the devastation. So we get to think 334 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: about what the demolishment looked like, we get to think 335 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: about how many people, We get to think about the 336 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: ages of the people, And in reading this today, we 337 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: get to think about how many more people have been 338 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: added to that account since this poem came out. 339 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and June Jordan, well, I don't think this poem 340 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: ever got banned. She did speak about how speaking up 341 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: for Palestinians, because this isn't the only poem that she's 342 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: written that was talking about what's going on in Palestine. 343 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: There's like a gap in her career where she couldn't 344 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 2: get books published because she was so outspoken. There's one 345 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 2: and since where she says, like I have become a Palestinian, 346 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: Like that's how closely she felt was like their plight. 347 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: She's like, I was born a black woman and I've 348 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: become a Palestinian because she was like that much in 349 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 2: solidarity with them. But yeah, I mean, and we see 350 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: that now people speaking up about Palestine, like they're getting 351 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: buyed from their jobs, like they can't publish what they 352 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: we're publishing. So it's just interesting to see from the 353 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: inception of this conflict to right now the same tactics 354 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 2: from the Zionists and then the same tactics of like 355 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: trying to silence people who are anti Zionists. 356 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: We also see the repression of people sharing their anti 357 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: Zionist messages yeah, and pro Palestinian messages. Yeah, very clearly, 358 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: and not just from government but from agents of the 359 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: government that weren't sanctioned by them but just want to 360 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: do their bidding. 361 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 2: Yes, like licking that brick baby, how it. 362 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: Tastes salty, salty, bloody. 363 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: Right after the break, we'll talk with Monet about how 364 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: she shows solidarity with the palestinin people through her artistry. 365 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 3: My name is Azamnet and I am a surrealist blues poet. 366 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 2: We see that the Black artists has a long history 367 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 2: of using their art to speak out against wars abroad. 368 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: What do you think is behind that tradition? 369 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 3: So if one is in touch and in alignment with 370 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 3: one's values around you know, justice, freedom of quality, love, community, connection, liberation, 371 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: then one must respond when those things are attacked or 372 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: oppressed or violated. Any feeling sentient being that is investigating 373 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 3: themselves but also their relationship to the people they love 374 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 3: at some point comes to question how does the world 375 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 3: reflect the values that they live by and that they 376 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 3: love by, and what is disrupting them from being able 377 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 3: to live out those values. It requires a certain kind 378 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 3: of art to survive this setup we have here. 379 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: You know, I know there's a lot of conversation around 380 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 1: how desensitized we've been in so many different ways that 381 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: we're constantly bombarded with these images of atrocities. What role 382 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: does sensitivity play in the work that you do, and 383 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: how you're able to enliven or awaken folks hearts, and 384 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: how that relates to resistance work. 385 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 3: We have to learn to be sensitive to each other, 386 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 3: to understand and listen to each other's where we ache, 387 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 3: where we where we aspire, where we imagine, where we envision, 388 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 3: and where we suffer, where we struggle. I mean, all 389 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 3: those things are determined based on our sensitivity to them, 390 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: Our closeness, our proximity to the pain, our proximity to 391 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 3: the healing dictates a lot of our strategies for our survival. 392 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 3: We have normalized a society that is not aware or 393 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 3: compassionate with the sensitivity of children, you know, which creates 394 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 3: adults that are you know, terrifying. And so I think 395 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 3: that that is why we need to be more than upset. 396 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 3: We need to be intolerable with our disgust around what 397 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 3: is happening to Palestinian children, What is happening to the 398 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 3: children and Sudan, what is happening to the children in 399 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 3: the Kongo. Yes, of course our elders matter. Yes, of 400 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 3: course our you know, moms and fathers matter. But if 401 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 3: we cannot protect if there's no sanctity of innocence of children, 402 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 3: if we have yet to protect that, if that is 403 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 3: being come up for negotiation, we are I don't think 404 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 3: we're savable any child that is born is a new lesson, 405 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 3: a new opportunity for us to grow, to evolve, to 406 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 3: be more sensitive, to be more present, to be more aware. 407 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 3: And if the youth today are telling us this is horrible, 408 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 3: this is horrific, this is not okay, we must stop 409 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 3: this and this now, and we cannot listen. You know, 410 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 3: I think, I think I don't have to say much else. 411 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 3: You know, we are seeing what that, what that is 412 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 3: resulting in. And I'll say this. You know, I don't 413 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 3: want any more children to die. I don't want anyone 414 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 3: to die. But there are libraries in our children too. 415 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 3: There is important technological information that is being wiped out 416 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 3: right now for the future that is inevitable. And and 417 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 3: you know, there is a there is a dark, There's 418 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 3: a there is an evil in the world that is 419 00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 3: resisting every every possibility of being wiped out. You know, 420 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: it's literally. This is why I think we're winning in 421 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 3: the grand scheme of things, because the heart of humanity 422 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 3: is awakening and people are our need to continue to 423 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 3: rise in that truth of sensitive, vulnerable, aware presence with 424 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 3: each other, collaboration, strategy for other ways of governing, other 425 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 3: ways of loving. But I'm going to stop there because 426 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 3: I could ramble forever. 427 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 2: I love talking to poets. It feels like y'all just 428 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 2: talk in poems. I'm like, oh, I love. 429 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: I would not have considered that rambling at all. I 430 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: was there with every single word. 431 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: And you mentioned strategy, and I've heard you talk in 432 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: TED talk about how the arts can be more integral 433 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 2: and strategy and not just a prop for entertaining. Do 434 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 2: you have examples of how you've seen that play out 435 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 2: with Palestine. 436 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 3: There's my poems, there's the ways that the world may 437 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 3: see me as a visible, outspoken person. But there are 438 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 3: things that a lot of work, a lot of work 439 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 3: that has gone into all the many things that people 440 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 3: don't see and they don't see being done as strategically 441 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 3: as they have been. Let's put it that way, And 442 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 3: there's a reason for that, because not every action we 443 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 3: can announce. You know, look at what I did, Look 444 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: at what happened, look at the way that this worked. 445 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 3: You know, some things are effective for people to learn 446 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 3: in the lessons, but our elders left enough for us 447 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 3: to learn from. Some things. We have to we have 448 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 3: to create and practice now and use what lessons have 449 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 3: been given to us and create even if it fails, 450 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 3: we must experiment, We must continue to try every possible 451 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 3: avenue we can for for us to be free, you know, 452 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 3: for us to love and live. So for me, that 453 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 3: one that's most example, that's most visible was when we 454 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 3: did our ted talk, which you were talking about with 455 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 3: my my ex partner Phil. We did as he's you know, 456 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 3: was a lover or comrade of mine, but also just 457 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 3: an incredible you know, co conspirator. And one of the 458 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 3: things that I think we really valued was the sanctity 459 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 3: of our home. And I think in some ways we 460 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 3: didn't understand boundaries around that, but we knew that there 461 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 3: was that without certain resources, we could use that space 462 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 3: two to gather people on one accord, under one roof. 463 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 3: With with the love that we had for each other, 464 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 3: we redistributed that into our into our communites, and we 465 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 3: knew that we were gifted and had skills that we 466 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 3: loved about each other and about ourselves and things that 467 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 3: we wanted to see celebrated more in other people in 468 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 3: our movement. That oftentimes the organizing space was seen as 469 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 3: you know, how many in a very kind of sterile, 470 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,479 Speaker 3: pragmatic way of how many doors were knocked on how 471 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 3: many people respire, how many members were, how many people 472 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 3: showed up to a meeting, etc. But what were we 473 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 3: pouring into people's hearts and minds? So that's truly what 474 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 3: folks moves people, That's what stains people, That's what keeps 475 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 3: people in the face of so much horror and adversity 476 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 3: and torment and heartbreak. People need to be poured into. 477 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 3: And while we have physical material conditions, our immaterial conditions 478 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 3: are just as crucial. You know, we want our bread 479 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 3: and our roses too, says the poem. You know, so 480 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 3: I think that we need to remind each other that 481 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 3: this isn't new, you know, this is a legacy or tradition. 482 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 3: When I glean on Surrey being a surrealist blues poet, 483 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 3: I think of the surrealist movement, what they were doing, 484 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 3: what they were practicing in the imagination, what they were 485 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 3: trying to organize and gather around, what ideas they were implementing. 486 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 3: I think of the black arts movement, which is rooted 487 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 3: in the blues, and you know, starts from the blues. 488 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 3: You know, even though we don't talk about it, contextualize 489 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 3: what the blues was an organizing strategy towards our response. 490 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 3: It was our response towards our oppression, and it was 491 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 3: a way that we felt deeply together we addressed the 492 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 3: ailments and issues of our times, and it was a 493 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 3: way that we masked and covered a lot of our 494 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 3: issues without having to be so overt. So a love 495 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 3: song about you know, a man who couldn't love us back, 496 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 3: or a woman who couldn't who couldn't, who beats on 497 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 3: us or doesn't take care of us is is seen 498 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 3: as a song about a lover. But you know, little 499 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 3: did we know that that was the way that people 500 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 3: could hide messages about a system, about a politic, about 501 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 3: a force. So, you know, a society that doesn't understand 502 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 3: art doesn't receive the people that are not rooted and 503 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 3: grounded in what is being done in the art is 504 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 3: a lost people to people without a culture, without an idea. 505 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 3: That's why the first thing they try to break when 506 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: they colonize is our songs, our rituals, our spiritual practices, 507 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 3: our belief systems, our language. All those things are crucial 508 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 3: to our survival, to our liberation. So as long as 509 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 3: we can continue to manifest those things, not for the 510 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 3: goals and objection of validation by their institutions or the 511 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 3: rewards of a very limited scope of our realities. Right, 512 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 3: But to be in better communication with our people, to 513 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 3: be in better cultivation and collaborate with the people. That's 514 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 3: what the art should be, you know. It should be 515 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 3: about being able to express things so that we can 516 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 3: get to the nitty gritty of what it is that 517 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 3: we are feeling and how we must address it. It's 518 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 3: a diagnosis, it's not a prescription. It is a process 519 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 3: by which we start to heal. This is why I 520 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 3: think what makes art fundamentally strategic is when it's used 521 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 3: as a practice and not a product. Yeah, when it's 522 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 3: strategized around how do we create artistic process and practice 523 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 3: in our movements rather than the objective being how we 524 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 3: produce this thing for this event or this moment or 525 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: this action or this campaign. No, how do we create 526 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 3: more sentient people that understand the jewels and gems of 527 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 3: the creative process. And then we can really resonate with 528 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 3: the artists who have voted their lives to that craft, 529 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 3: and we can say we see you, we receive you, 530 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 3: we lift you up, not because you're divorcing us or 531 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 3: you're making us escape our realities, but in fact, because 532 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 3: you have gone into the depths of self and you 533 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 3: have discovered there's so much more for us to experience 534 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 3: here together, and you've given us a way through, a 535 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 3: way out away, with a way beyond. 536 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: I really appreciate how clear you are about that and 537 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: your work, about how crucial artists are, about how es 538 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: central and strategic their work is. And I was thinking 539 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: about that when I was listening to your album, and 540 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: specifically in a song for Sonya, and you have these 541 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 1: two lines, and one of them is you say, who 542 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: will feed our activists our organizer's freedom if not the poets? 543 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: And then there's another line in that poem in which 544 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: you say a strategy for organizing the heart. So there 545 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: is just so much clarity in your work and speaking 546 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: about the actual work that you're doing. And I was 547 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: wondering about your process of conceiving of that poem and 548 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: continuing to work on that for the album. 549 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 3: Well, that poem came about right after Nipsey Hustle was 550 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 3: murdered and I was invited to read a poem at 551 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 3: Sonya Sanchez celebration for her, and I knew that a 552 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 3: poem for Sonya would be bash She would be bashful, 553 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 3: you know, she wouldn't be okay with me just going 554 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 3: off and telling her how amazing she is. And so 555 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 3: I had to find a way for me. I thought 556 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 3: the best way to honor her was to honor the 557 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 3: moment and to honor the current story of what it 558 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 3: is to organize and be a poet at this time. 559 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 3: We glorify the past and romanticize it often, but I 560 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 3: think that there's lessons that we learned, and you know, 561 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 3: there's things that I love about how we we wrote 562 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 3: and created, and there's things that need to change. You 563 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 3: need to develop and evolve, and so I think that 564 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 3: poem was about my struggle not just with the poetry community, 565 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 3: but with the movement. 566 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: You had align that said, great art is not a monologue. 567 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: Great art is a dialogue between the artists and the people. 568 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 2: And I was wondering what dialogue were you having about 569 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: Palestine when you first became aware of what was going on? 570 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: And then how has that dialogue evolved as times has 571 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: gone on. 572 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 3: Well, there are moments that poems serve a purpose and 573 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 3: there's moments that they have real limitations. And I struggle 574 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 3: with that, you know, I struggle with the struggle of that. 575 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 3: So when I came back from Palestine, while the expectation 576 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 3: was that I would write all this work about it, 577 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 3: and I in some ways I regret that I had, 578 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 3: and I thought that I should have wrote all these 579 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 3: essays and all these things that June Jordan had done 580 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 3: that I was like, ah, but she did that, you know. 581 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 3: So to me, Palestine radicalized me. Visiting Palestine radicalized me 582 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 3: in a way that had not been before. And I 583 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 3: was disappointed in the poetry community. I was discouraged by poems. 584 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 3: I was disgusted by the pursuit of you know, individual 585 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:32,959 Speaker 3: you know careers. I didn't understand how else to exemplify 586 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 3: my anguish and my frustration until I came back and 587 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 3: met my partner Philip in Palestine and we learned some 588 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 3: invaluable lessons together. But for me, it was really rooted 589 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 3: in the love that was shared with Palestinian people. The compassion, 590 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 3: the heartbreak, the joy, the anger, I mean, all these 591 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 3: things that were deeply no longer just an issue outside 592 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,959 Speaker 3: of me. Over there, those people is an intimate part 593 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 3: of my life, and I now had a full understanding. 594 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 3: So for me coming back, I was I wrote poems, 595 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 3: you know, there's a poem. There's poems in my book. 596 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 3: My mother was a freedom fighter about it. And but 597 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 3: I was. I was on one, you know, I was 598 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 3: going to every possible pro Palestine panel, discussion event, you know, organizing, 599 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 3: meaning that I was that I was invited to anything 600 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 3: that people asked me to do. I to the to 601 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 3: the point of, you know, great exhaustion, But I but 602 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 3: I was on it, you know, And I believe Palestine 603 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 3: would be free in all lifetime, you know. And I 604 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 3: think the naivete of my conviction is part of what worked. 605 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: Can you think a little bit more to what radicalized 606 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 2: you from the lens of a black person from America? 607 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 3: Because I know a lot of. 608 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: People are like, why are are y'all worried about Palestinians? 609 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: They're not black? So what was it about going there 610 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 2: that really radicalized you in that moment? 611 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 3: That's some bullshit. Okay, Nothing discussed me more than when 612 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 3: people respond to outrage or injustice with what about me? 613 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 3: What about my injustice? What about what I went through? 614 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 3: It's just ridiculous, you know, how about and and we're 615 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 3: going through this too. Look at how this is connected, 616 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 3: Look at how this is different for me. I didn't 617 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 3: look to Palestine and be like, well, you know what, 618 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 3: everything they're experiencing we're experiencing. There was no way what 619 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 3: is happening in Palestine was extremely vastly different than what 620 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 3: we experience in the States. While there are similarities and 621 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 3: there are connections to our oppression, that's not why I went. 622 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 3: That's why Ahmed Abusne tried to organize a delegation because 623 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,919 Speaker 3: he wanted, as someone who had been organizing with black 624 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 3: people in the state of Florida, he wanted to make 625 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 3: it clear that he was committed to black liberation because 626 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 3: his people were also committed to their liberation, and that 627 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 3: he wanted to make sure that we saw that connection 628 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 3: for him in his personal life. So this was a 629 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 3: personal relationship. But you know, the first time I think 630 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 3: relationships is how we get organized. It's not because all 631 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 3: these facts on a paper and some articles you see 632 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 3: or posts on Instagram. We get organized, We get involved, 633 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 3: We get invested, invested because we feel and we see 634 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 3: our our lives tied up with others. We see our 635 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 3: dreams and visions and joys and aspirations tied up with others, 636 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 3: our struggles that is where the organized comes in. So 637 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 3: for me, when I was a young poet, I learned 638 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 3: about Palestine through another young poet, to Honey Solla. We 639 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 3: were fourteen fifteen years old, running through open mics with 640 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 3: our hearts on our sleeves, talking about the issues of 641 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 3: injustice that we were facing and the things that it 642 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 3: brought us outrage and the anger towards those things and 643 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 3: the heartbreak, and we were convinced, we were convinced our 644 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 3: poems were going to change the world, that people were 645 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 3: going to understand that. Clearly it is obvious what is 646 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 3: happening and how horrible and horrific it is. Clearly any 647 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 3: feeling sentient being could see what harm is being done 648 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 3: and saying, no, this is wrong. If it happens here, 649 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 3: and if it happens anywhere, it's happening here, it happens anywhere. 650 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 3: It's you know, it's an issue, it's an issue, it's 651 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 3: our issue. It's all our issue. So yeah, we dealt 652 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 3: with that. We dealt with people on the delegation who 653 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 3: were like, well, what about Africans and what about the 654 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 3: way Arabs treat Africans, And let me tell you, it 655 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 3: is a struggle no relationship. Tell me a relationship you've 656 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 3: been in that hasn't been a struggle. Tell me a love, 657 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 3: a lover you've loved that you haven't argued tooth and 658 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 3: nail until you couldn't do anything else but hug and 659 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 3: hold them and kiss them and just say, you know what, 660 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 3: I don't want to I don't want to disagree with you. 661 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 3: I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to 662 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 3: argue with you. I just want to be understood. I 663 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,720 Speaker 3: just want to express where I'm coming from and why 664 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 3: this hurts so bad. And until we can get to 665 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 3: the root of our feelings rather than being reactionary, I 666 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 3: don't think we can truly tap into our humanity. And 667 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 3: so that's where the solidarity lives. The solidarity lives, and 668 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 3: I shared, you know, values around the quality of life 669 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,439 Speaker 3: for all people. If I want to be free, if 670 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 3: I know what it's like to see people devalue, belittle, oppressed, 671 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 3: locked up, persecuted, shot done dead in the streets, and 672 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 3: I see that, and I have a heart, and we 673 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 3: want people to stop this. We want people to be 674 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 3: moved to say this is wrong. Who are we to 675 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 3: not see that somewhere else? And say no, this is wrong. 676 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 3: If we want other people to be as motivated in 677 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,879 Speaker 3: our struggle, in our and our and our issues, then 678 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 3: we must be motivated about each other's you know, pains 679 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 3: and and and and and injustices and struggles. So like Palestine, 680 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 3: you know, it was, It's crazy. There's nothing like it. 681 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 3: You can't. You know, the Congo has its struggle, Haiti 682 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 3: has its struggle. Poverty is a is a genocide in 683 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 3: and of itself across the globe, and it's and it's rampant, 684 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 3: and colonization has its fucking dirty hands all over it. 685 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 3: But if you really understand what's happening in Palestine, if 686 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:56,919 Speaker 3: you go and you witness, I mean, it's a kind 687 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 3: of evil that is so specific, and it's so targeted, 688 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 3: it's so strategic, it's so transactional, it's so contrived, it's 689 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 3: so evil that, I mean, if it could happen there, 690 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 3: you wonder, like, how can I coexist with anyone who 691 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 3: believes that this is okay? Clearly, if they think it's 692 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 3: okay there, they're going to think it's okay here. You know, 693 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 3: And young people, Jewish people are being radicalized and seeing 694 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 3: what's wrong. I mean, I learned from being in conversations 695 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 3: with JVP and Jewish voices for peace and you know, 696 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 3: seeing what if not now is doing. I mean, the 697 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,280 Speaker 3: world wants something else. The world is demanding a different 698 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 3: kind of sensitivity to our interconnectedness, to our relationships being here, 699 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 3: and so black people need to get on board, get 700 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 3: on board or get left. You know, the train is 701 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 3: not waiting. You know, people get ready for a train 702 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 3: is coming. 703 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 5: You know. 704 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: All right. So I know Aza that you have a 705 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: book coming out Florida Water. I was wondering if you 706 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about that a little bit or anything 707 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: else you would like to shout out as we close 708 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: out here. 709 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,359 Speaker 3: No, I think that's the book will be out when 710 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 3: it comes out, hopefully soon. But there's a song that 711 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 3: will probably come out in February, a poem for the 712 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 3: kids who live and I'm looking forward to that being 713 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 3: in the world. And I'm really just looking forward to 714 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 3: collaborating with more intentional musicians and you know, creatives to 715 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 3: make the next thing. So keeping my head head in 716 00:42:55,000 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 3: the work and hopefully the right energy will gravitate towards 717 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 3: the work and allow for more creative, innovative things to 718 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 3: be made as a poet, I want to take the 719 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 3: poetry into places that I have not yet been able to, 720 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 3: so I'm strategizing around that. And then of course I'm 721 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,919 Speaker 3: also the artistic creative director of an organization called v Day, 722 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 3: which works to end violence against women and girls. And 723 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 3: there's an audio play that we created called Voices that 724 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 3: we launched in Ghana in last December twenty two and 725 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,240 Speaker 3: so we're looking to launch that this year in the States. 726 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 3: That is you know, anchored around Black women's stories of 727 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 3: the diaspora and the continent. So that's something I'm very 728 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,760 Speaker 3: much excited about, which is still rooted an artistic practice, 729 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 3: but is more about lifting up other voices as well 730 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 3: as it's you know, the vision that I've created, but 731 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 3: it's really anchored by the voices of women across the globe. 732 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 3: So I'm really looking forward to that being in the 733 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 3: world more publicly. 734 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,439 Speaker 2: And now it's time for role credits, the segment where 735 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 2: we give credit to a person, place, or thing that 736 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 2: we encountered during the week. And we have Aja with 737 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 2: us joining us for this segment. Who are what would 738 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 2: you like to give credit to? 739 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if I'm going to give credit to 740 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 3: anyone or anything. I think the most immediate thing is Daphne. 741 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 3: I'm just a constantly an utter on gratitude for her 742 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,839 Speaker 3: support and her love of the work that I've been 743 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 3: doing for years and without that. She's more than a manager. 744 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 3: She's my sister, she's my friend, she's my comrade. And 745 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 3: there are many days when I want to give up 746 00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 3: and feel very discouraged and very alone, and she's a 747 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 3: real one, and so I'm just constantly and awed and 748 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 3: ingratitude of her. So I think the rollout credits will 749 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 3: go to her. 750 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 2: Eves who are what would you like to give credit to? 751 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: I want to give credit to Travel because we had 752 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,720 Speaker 1: a lovely conversation with Aja, and Ija talked about how 753 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: going to Palestine radicalized her. And I think going to 754 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: different places and experiencing new people and actually getting to 755 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: know them, actually learning about the history, listening to things 756 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: that people have to say, reading their works, experiencing their art, 757 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:43,240 Speaker 1: all of those things, but like deeply witnessing and experiencing 758 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: a place versus just touching it on the surface as 759 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 1: a person who's an outsider, is a really nice thing 760 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: to do. And of course there's so many things that 761 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:59,560 Speaker 1: come with travel, like accessibility and money and environmental impact 762 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: and all those things. But at the root of it 763 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: all is extending ourselves beyond where we've been, learning new things, 764 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: being new in general, and talking to other people, like 765 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 1: being with other people. And I think that it was 766 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: clear that that experience, you know, really affected Aja. But 767 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 1: just it's nice to be able to give credit to 768 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,399 Speaker 1: it here because it's a way that we can get 769 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: more in touch with our sensitivity and our feelings and 770 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: our knowledge basis and our power. 771 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,719 Speaker 2: I would like to give credit to My credit is 772 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 2: also influenced by Aja a conversation with Azja. I want 773 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 2: to give credit to babies. There's so many babies in 774 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,239 Speaker 2: my life right now, and they're just so it's so 775 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 2: cool to like see someone like grow up like from 776 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:04,800 Speaker 2: like day one. Loki and I could definitely tell Ojia 777 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 2: was passionate about children, and they are so innocent and 778 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,319 Speaker 2: it is our job to protect them. So I just 779 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 2: want to give credit to all the babies out there, 780 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 2: especially the ones in my immediate circle. Gay Gay, thank 781 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 2: you so much for joining us, Aja, this was a 782 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,239 Speaker 2: great conversation. We really appreciate you. 783 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 3: Thank you, guys, Thank you. 784 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,319 Speaker 1: And Next week, we'll be continuing this conversation about art, 785 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 1: war and resistance in a different way. We'll be talking 786 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,360 Speaker 1: about protest songs, so tune in if you want to 787 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:39,959 Speaker 1: hear more. 788 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 2: We will see y'all next week. 789 00:47:43,680 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: Bye, y'all. Hi on Theme is a production of iHeartRadio 790 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves 791 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,239 Speaker 1: Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by 792 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You 793 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: can also send us an email at Hello at on 794 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,319 Speaker 1: Theme dot show. Head to on Themet Show to check 795 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,959 Speaker 1: out the show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 796 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,280 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen 797 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.