WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: The History of Carbon Fiber 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.720 Be there and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.960 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio, 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.119 and I love all things tech. It is Friday, which 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:25.040 means it is time for a tech Stuff classic. This 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:29.800 classic episode originally published on June second, two thousand fourteen. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.320 It is titled The History of Carbon Fiber, a truly 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:41.360 fascinating material that has lots of incredible uses and applications, 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.400 some of which I believe have been perhaps a bit 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.839 over hyped over the years, but that tends to be 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:53.320 the case with all things technology. Let's listen in carbon fiber. 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.400 Fascinating stuff it is. I didn't even realize how fascinating 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.040 it was until we in fact started doing this research. 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.360 And because as it is so fascinating, and since we 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.000 are splaying this into two episodes, we'll probably have to 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.360 look at other exotic materials in another one. Well, we'll 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.119 make some mention of stuff that is similar to what 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.840 carbon fiber is, but we're really going to focus on 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.520 carbon fiber because it's there's a lot there. Oh yeah, 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:17.760 there could have probably been way more than two episodes 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.160 about carbon fiber. If we had really gotten into gritty 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.360 details about about different uses for it and exactly if 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:26.840 we had gone into the history of this is the 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.320 first vehicle to use. If we had done that, this 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:31.640 would have been a three partter easily. But but if 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.720 you're not fans, we didn't go into that kind of 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.119 minute detail. We're going to tell you in this episode 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.080 about the history of developing carbon fiber. In our second 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.399 part we'll look more into how it's actually made and 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.840 the process that that you have to go through in 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.720 order to get a raw material to turn into carbon fiber, 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.960 and some of the challenges and benefits thereof. Yes, so, first, 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:58.360 what the heck is carbon fiber. It's a material made 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.960 up of thin strands of crystalline car been doctor, Well, 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.240 there you go. Episode over, Thanks guys. Yeah, but no, 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.800 we're gonna we're gonna give a little more detailed than that. 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.600 So the thickness of an individual strand of carbon fiber 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.720 can be thinner than a human hair by by many factors. 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.680 Oh yeah, and um, if you're wondering, yes, it is 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.680 in fact structurally similar to graphine and carbon nanotubes, the 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.080 difference being in the way that the sheets of carbon 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:25.800 atoms are are packed and interlocked. Yeah, this is one 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.480 of those amazing things about carbon. You know, if you 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:31.520 put the carbon atoms in one formation, you get this 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.120 very soft material that you would find in pencils, for example. 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.840 You put it in a different kind of modular combination 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.960 and you get diamond about as different as two substances 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.519 can being. Right, So it really shows that just by 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:50.000 changing these these orientations you can really change the properties 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:54.520 of this one material. Well, those little strands, those strands 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.480 that are thinner than a human hair, can be twisted 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.320 together to make a yarn like material and then oven 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.240 like cloth, which can then be laid in a mold 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:06.320 and then coated with resin or or a plastic so 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.600 that will take on a permanent shape. So, right, the 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.400 coated stuff itself is frequently referred to as carbon fiber, 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.320 but you may also see it more precisely referred to 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:21.200 as carbon fiber reinforced polymer. And that's it rolls off 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:25.160 the tongue, right, We're just going to call it carbon fiber, So, uh, 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.239 forgive us for taking a shortcut, but it has a 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.320 lot of interesting properties, right, So, for one thing, it's 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:35.680 five times stronger than steel and twice as stiff as steel, 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:39.840 but it's lighter than steel, about two thirds lighter by volume. 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:44.880 Also about eight times stronger than aluminum or aluminium depending 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:47.760 on where you live um, which is really handy since 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.080 aluminum is lower weight by volume is offset by its 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.440 lower strength, meaning that you have to use a lot 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.880 more of it to get stuff done. Right, So now 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.120 you've got this new material that you can use instead 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.680 of that in lots of different products, and as long 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.320 as it meets the needs of whatever that product is, 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.920 you are getting a benefit of something that's stronger and lighter. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.360 That's pretty amazing stuff. So who does use this, Well, 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.160 the auto industry uses a lot of carbon fiber, right, 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.039 it's main mainly there to make the components of a 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.520 car lighter and stronger, which obviously I mean, that's the 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.160 properties of the material, so that makes sense to transfer 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.800 it to the final product. So why would you want 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.680 a lighter vehicle? The main reason is cause it takes 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.000 less power to move a lighter vehicle than a heavier vehicle, 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.560 So that means that you can make a more efficient engine. 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:42.719 You're using less energy to move the actual vehicle. And 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.360 as long as that vehicle has maintained its strength, so 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.840 you haven't compromised the safety of the people who are 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.359 in the vehicle. That's a good thing. Sure, carbon fiber 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.280 usually makes the car actually more resistant to impact than 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.400 it would be with just regular steel components. And in 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.640 terms of that efficiency, um, according to the oak Ridge 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.160 National Laboratory, which is this huge lab run by the 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.400 Department of Energy, you can make a car more efficient 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.600 just by trading out a steel body for a carbon 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.360 fiber one. So that means that you would end up 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.880 over time saving lots of money and fuel costs, not 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.920 to mention the environmental impact of having to consume less 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.279 fuel to get around. Uh. So, these are some interesting 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:26.839 uses of carbon fibers. Not the only one. There are 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.200 a lot of others will talk about. For example, we 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:33.160 you know Matt mentioned aerospace, a big, big industry that 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.720 it relies on carbon fiber. Yeah. Yeah, um, and a 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.920 lot of really mundane kind of things like golf clubs 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.960 or bicycles, fishing rods, sailboat masts and wind turbines. Yeah. 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.720 So the thing about carbon fiber is, well, I guess 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:48.440 we should go into the history and then I'll tell 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:52.200 you what the thing about carbon fiber is that's foreshadowing 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.680 so earliest use of carbon fibers. The interesting thing here 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.520 is that the earliest use I could find predates their 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.320 application in any of the industries we just mentioned. And 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:06.039 in fact, it wasn't even used to build something like 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.320 a structure. It wasn't used for its strength or lightness. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.280 It was used for an entirely different property that's inherent 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.840 with carbon fiber, which is its resistance to heat. Thomas Edison, 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.760 A different kind of light. Yeah, yeah, exactly, not light 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.719 as in less heavy light as in let there be 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:28.960 so Thomas Edison, who, of course we know beloved Internet darling, 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:31.559 one of the favorites of the I guess I forgot 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:33.400 to boo when when we when you said his name 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:35.400 right right? I'm sorry, Okay, well we'll we'll put it 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:40.240 in there for you Internet boo. Yes, Thomas Hays in 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.919 the Elephant electrocutor, who did not personally do that, but 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.679 still use them as filaments for early light bulbs way 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:51.040 back in eighteen seventy nine because of that high tolerance 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.520 for heat. Now they can also conduct electricity, but they 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.160 have a high resistance. If you remember, resistance is what 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:03.279 we'd call the the UH kind of opposing element that 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:07.600 keeps electrons from flowing through a material smoothly. So if 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.720 you have a high resistance and you want to try 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.400 and get electric electrons from point A to point B, 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.120 you're not getting as many to point B as we're 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.120 leaving point A because some of those are converted into 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.840 that electrons converting into heat. You're losing it through that resistance. 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.880 I'm oversimplifying, but this is basically what's happening. So with 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.760 light bulbs, that's exactly what you do want. You want 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.600 to have something that's heating up, and as it heats up, 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.720 it starts to give off photons, light particles. That's what 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.800 lets us see that light. And of course, in this 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:40.960 case we're talking about light that's in the visible spectrum, 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.400 wouldn't be much used to us outside of that. So 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.440 you end up using this material that has a resistance 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.200 to high temperatures, because if it didn't, it would just 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:50.720 burn up. You know, you would get light, but it 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:52.640 would burn up, and then your light bulb would be useless. 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:56.040 That's just a fire, and that's less used exactly. And 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:58.360 while you would try and create a vacuum within the 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.160 light bulbs, so you couldn't really burn burn, you would 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.120 still end up having the material itself deteriorate really quickly 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.440 and the light bulb would be broken. And so anytime 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:10.880 you know when you have an old incandescent light bulb 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:13.720 and you hear it will pop and then you shake 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.600 it and you can hear the little chicken chinge. Yeah, 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.440 that's the filament that has given out because it has 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:23.200 been worn away so much. So anyway, the carbon fiber 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.000 tended to be a really good candidate for this filament, 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.320 and that's what Thomas Sen used. So how did he 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:36.240 create carbon fiber? Well, he carbonized something, which means that 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.720 you're taking one material and you're converting it into these 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:44.160 these carbon atoms, these crystalline structures of carbon atoms. Now, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.439 specifically what Thomas Haysen was using was cotton and bamboo, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.960 different different ones for different types of light bulbs. Experiment 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.679 with a lot of different materials. Sure, but but carbonization 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.400 is also how we make charcoal. We we carbonized would 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.880 that is exactly right? And so if you wanted to 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.560 carbonized wood, if you want to make your own charcoal, 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:04.960 you would have a few steps. One is that you 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.640 want to remove all the moisture you can from the 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.800 organic material, usually through evaporation and heating. So with would 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.640 we call it seasoning. And you may remember that just 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.760 in our recent podcast about the HMS victory, they would 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:21.800 season would in order to get as much moisture out 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.400 of it as possible and made the wood stronger as 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:27.120 a result. In this case, it's not to make the 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.600 wood stronger, it's really just to get rid of all 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.640 that moisture. And the next you would increase the temperature 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:37.120 to induce pyrolysisis it's a basic chemical change brought upon 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.000 a material through the application of heat. Okay, And what's 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.160 important in this chemical change is that you don't allow 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:44.920 any oxygen to come into contact with the material during 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.559 the process so that it can't burn. Right because, as 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.600 we remember, the three things you need are you need 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.360 you need fuel, you need oxygen, and you need heat 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.680 to create fire. So if you take any of those 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.280 three away, you don't have fire. So by taking the 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.600 oxygen away, you don't have to worry about prematurely burning 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:05.319 your material and you can convert it to carbon without 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:10.239 it actually catching fire. Very important in any application, specifically 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.160 for charcoal, because you don't want to burn it before 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:16.520 you burn it right, Otherwise barbecues over before it began 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:19.560 it is. Yeah, I've been in some states that some 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.880 pre sad barbecue with organic material. That means getting all 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.880 this stuff carbon converted down to carbon, while the other 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.040 stuff like water vapor essentially just kind of evaporates away 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.320 or kind of vibrates away. Technically, the atoms that are 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:36.360 other than carbon in the material are expelled during the processing. Yeah, 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.560 you can kind of think like carbon, they're allowed to 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.200 stay at the party. Everyone else is encouraged by the 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.880 bouncer to leave. So uh happen to those parties. And 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.480 a lot of chemical processes go on through pyrolysis. There's 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.520 one called isomerization. That's when a molecule gets rearranged into 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.560 another molecule that has the same constituent atoms but a 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.920 different physical structure. You know, like I was mentioning earlier, 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.160 the you know, the way you construct carbon atoms together 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:07.000 can depend that that determines what properties that material has pencil, 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.520 lead or diamonds. Same thing with any other kind of molecule. 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.720 You just well, not any but different molecules. You rearrange 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.120 the structure of the molecule. You end up with stuff 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:18.520 that has very different properties from each other, which is 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.240 another fascinating thing. You say, all the basic ingredients are 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.960 the same, but just by the way you arrange the 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:29.480 atoms within that molecular structure, you change the actual properties 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.120 of the overall substance. This is what I think is 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.679 awesome about science. I don't fully understand it because I'm 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:40.200 not a chemist, but I really find it fascinating anyway. 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.800 Another thing that you would have going on through pyrolysis 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:47.320 is called transfer hydrogen hydrogenation. This is where you can 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.360 tell I'm not a chemist because I can't say any 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:51.880 of the words. But this is the addition of hydrogen, 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.240 as one would imagine to a molecule from a source 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.960 other than from hydrogen gas, which is not the easiest 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.520 thing to get hold of because again, hydro gen is 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:05.559 usually uh captured in some other kind of molecular bonds. 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.160 It gets pretty buddy buddy with most other things. Yeah, 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.000 it's um it's it's just a gregarious kind of atom. 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.280 It likes to hang out with Budli's. So what you're 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.959 left with is carbonized material. So in the case of 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.199 cotton or bamboo, it's very fibrous in nature, so then 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:25.200 you have carbon fibers. Again not meant to know. We've 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.840 together to make some sort of material that's stronger and 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.600 lighter than steel but still had very good use. So 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:35.880 these were the fibers that would conduct electricity. They had 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.240 the high resistance. You lose some of that energy as heat, 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:42.200 but that's exactly what you want, so you're not not 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.600 losing it so much as converting it over to heat 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:49.640 to create light. Um This is actually called incandescence, where 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.600 you heat up a material enough so that it starts 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.720 to give off light, hence the name incandescent light bulbs. 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.520 And you've probably seen this in multiple applications, not just 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.400 incandescent bulbs. I assume most of our our listeners have 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.520 seen an incandescent bulb, even though they are becoming more 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.760 and more rare. But in any material that has heated 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:15.280 up beyond it's that limit you start to see it glow, unless, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.560 of course, it's flammable and it's in the presence of oxygen, 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.000 in which case you saw it catch fire. So that's 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.920 exactly why Thomas Hayston decided to use this and ended 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.199 up being a success. It took some experiments to get 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.400 it just right, and even then, um, you know, obviously 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.800 over time we made great improvements to the light bulb 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.120 using different types of material as filament, not just cotton 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:43.240 or bamboo carbon fibers. But that was the very first 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:47.960 application of carbon fibers in any kind of manufacturing process. 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:50.840 We'll be back with more of the history of carbon 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.839 fiber in just a moment, but first let's take a 0:13:53.960 --> 0:14:04.400 quick break and we're back. So we're still in the 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.600 late nineteenth century. This is eighteen eighties six, and I 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.800 still can't believe it for such a space age quote 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:17.480 unquote space age. Yeah, yeah, it's to the nineteenth century. Yeah. Now, 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.960 granted again used for different purposes, but still it's when 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.040 you hear carbon fiber that sounds to me like maybe 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.480 the nineteen seventies was where it got started. But no, 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:31.800 I was completely wrong. So you have the National Carbon Company, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.720 which was the first company to make synthetic carbon, and 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.680 it merged with another company called Union Carbide in nineteen seventeen, 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:44.200 and eventually that company became Union Carbide Corporation in nineteen 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.520 fifty seven. Now, the whole purpose of this was to 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.800 make carbon fibers for things like lightbulbs, so we're still 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.640 in that stage. And meanwhile, in the nineteen thirties he 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:58.880 had engineers who began to experiment with fiber reinforced composites 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:04.360 or FARPs, which fiber reinforced composite to f r P. 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:09.640 Uh it technically stands for fiber reinforced polymers, but still 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.840 it confuses me. Anyway. This is a composite material made 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:17.200 out of a pattern of polymers that are reinforced by fibers. 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:21.360 The fibers themselves are needed to enhance elasticity and strength 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.360 of this plastic material. So the first record use, according 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:29.360 to oak Ridge National Laboratory, was for a boat hole. 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.040 So we've you know, you've seen fiberglass boats. I'm sure. 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.280 I mean that there's a very common thing for small 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.760 boats in particular, seeing fiberglass boats. That's essentially what we're 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.160 talking about. So fiberglass is used in a lot of 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.160 different applications today. It's not the same thing as carbon fiber, 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.480 but the the process, well maybe not the process, but 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.520 the overall outcome using yeah, exactly, using fibers to reinforce 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.560 a structure uh is is very similar to what would 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.480 end up being used as in the carbon fiber industry, 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.200 especially when you have the goal of making something very 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.560 strong and very light weight exactly. So by the nineties, 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:11.200 the defense industry began to get really interested in f 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.320 rps for obvious reasons. So the search was on for 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:18.000 new types of fiber that can make stuff stronger and lighter, 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.360 and a lot of work and material science was dedicated 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.440 to finding out whether the theoretical strength of certain materials 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.440 could translate into practical use. So what was happening was 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:30.280 that scientists were studying various materials and they would say, 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.280 all right, based upon the molecular structure of this material, 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:38.440 in theory, it has x amount of strength compared to 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.240 some other material, and why amount of weight by volume 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:46.000 compared to some other material if we were able to 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.880 to manufacture it properly, and so the difference between theory 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.000 and reality often there's a gap there because we just 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.160 don't have the perfect way to manufacture the stuff that 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.240 is theoretically possible, or to manufacture it in a way 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:05.840 that is uh less than completely expensive. Yeah, this, especially 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:10.000 early on, that is a huge challenge because you often 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:14.560 have to invent new ways to create material so that 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:16.960 means that you have to spend a lot of money 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:21.560 in research and development and and to build specialty equipment 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.560 to make that stuff. It's one of the reasons why 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:29.000 carbon fiber is not as plentiful as it could be. 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.880 But we'll talk about that more later. Yeah, So, back 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.840 in the nineteen fifties, there were three really big drivers 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.440 in the United States that pushed the development of these 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:41.480 carbon fibers forward. That's true. So you had the industrial 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:46.880 demand for lightweight, strong material, which included industries like aerospace, electronics, 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.560 sports equipment, that kind of thing. Then there was the 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.360 work in solid state materials that predicted high potential crystal 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.040 strengths are certain types of material. This is what I 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.360 was talking about just a second ago, where people were 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:01.359 doing this kind of theoretical works saying, hey, if we 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.679 just rearranged stuff this way in theory, it should be 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.399 even stronger and lighter. Let's just find a way of 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.480 making that happen. The math worked out and the physical 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.680 process would follow. That's exactly right. And then the third 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.680 one was that and this is probably the most important driver. 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.920 During the nineteen fifties, the U s economy was going 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:24.600 like gangbusters, y'all, so with that kind of bounty, there 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.480 was doing so well that there was the ability to 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.800 afford in investing in research and development and pushing these 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.200 kind of technologies forward. Even if they had an initial 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.240 high price to get into it, we could afford to 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.920 do it. So that was a big driver. Actually. So 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.800 we get to the years of nine to nineteen sixty, 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.720 that's when we had companies, primarily the Union Car Byte 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:55.040 Corporation previously mentioned. Yep, they began to discover practical means 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.719 of using carbon fibers as reinforcement. Those f rps we 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.439 were talking about similar to that. It So these carbon 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.760 fibers didn't come from cotton or bamboo, right they were. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.160 They were using materials like rayon or poly acrylon, nitrial 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:12.080 or pan. Yeah we're gonna say pan because I kind 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.919 of enjoy saying poly acryla night trial. I'll never be 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.720 able to do it. My my mouth parts don't work 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.440 that way. But no, carbon fibers from these are made 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.600 from precursor fibers, which is made from you know, the 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.920 ray on, our our pan. So the precursor fiber. We 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.000 we use precursor as the term for stuff that you're 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.440 going to convert into carbon fiber. And that at Loan 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.240 like the precursor stuff had its own manufacturing processes, right 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.760 you you had these are synthetic materials that we had 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:46.360 to create first, that then we would create into carbon fibers. 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.199 So it's a it's a two step process in a 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:53.840 grand overview. Yes, many smaller steps within exactly, which we 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:58.720 will talk about in our second episode trust us for now. Yes, so, 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.240 but the important thing here to remember is that it's 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.119 not like you would go out to the fields and 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.879 get some rayon. You have to make the rayon first 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.000 and then you convert the rayon into carbon fiber. That 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:11.479 just cracked me out because the mental image of fields 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.320 of rayon was was a circle of hell. According to me, 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.800 the fields of Rayon I think would be a great 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.720 name for a band. Yeah, I'll get on that. But 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.840 the the important thing here was that using these types 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:28.040 of precursor fibers were what allowed them to create the 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.440 different shapes that carbon fiber could come into. They were 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:34.480 they were really well formed for that sort of stuff. 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:39.080 They were already strong and easily manipulatable. Yes, and if 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:42.600 you want to learn more about the history of the 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.000 Union car by corporation and its role in this. I 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.159 recommend going to a c s dot Org. It has 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:51.640 a lot on the history of carbon fiber development, goes 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.640 into a huge amount detail. And again, if we were 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:56.720 to go into as much detail as some of these 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.840 sources do, we'd be doing like a five part series 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:01.480 and think some of you guys might get a little 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.800 antsy uh yeah. I I did want to mention in 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.800 three that there was a way to make carbon fibers 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:13.320 from petroleum pitch debut um and those are those are 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.280 so many solid polymers kind of kind of like tar. Yeah, yeah, 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.679 And that was that's different obviously because you can actually 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.200 find tar in nature. This was not something that you 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:25.520 would have to first create the polymer and then do 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.840 the carbonization on it. You could get the actual stuff 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:30.919 and then separate out what you needed and then do 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.840 the carbonization on that um. And they experimented with lots 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:37.639 of other materials to try and manufacture carbon fibers. That 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:43.159 included polyesters, polyfinal alcohol, and phenolic resins yep. But it 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.360 turned out that pan Rayon and pitched the first three 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.160 they really concentrate on, we're the most useful for creating 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.040 high strength material so so it turned out their their 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:55.760 initial impulse was exactly what made the most sense. It 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.159 also made the most sense from a dollar standpoint, like 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:03.639 the the having the manufacturing industries that are already established 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.399 for at least rayon and pan meant that it was 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.359 less expensive than to create something out of whole cloth, 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:14.560 and petroleum pitch could be a byproduct of the petroleum industries. 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:16.920 So that's kind of a that's kind of a gimme, Right, 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.160 it's time for another quick break, but we'll be back 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:31.040 with more history of carbon fiber. So getting back to 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.320 those drivers we were talking about, the two industries that 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:36.800 drove the carbon fiber development the most in those early 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.520 years were the aerospace industry and the defense industry. So 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:46.240 you had some outside crises like the oil crisis that 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:49.600 affected the pace of development. And now we've got a 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:51.879 lot of different industries that have a vested interest in 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:56.840 creating lightweight, resilient materials for products, and carbon fibers receive 0:22:56.880 --> 0:22:58.840