1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Be there and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio, 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: and I love all things tech. It is Friday, which 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: means it is time for a tech Stuff classic. This 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: classic episode originally published on June second, two thousand fourteen. 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: It is titled The History of Carbon Fiber, a truly 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: fascinating material that has lots of incredible uses and applications, 9 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: some of which I believe have been perhaps a bit 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: over hyped over the years, but that tends to be 11 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: the case with all things technology. Let's listen in carbon fiber. 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: Fascinating stuff it is. I didn't even realize how fascinating 13 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: it was until we in fact started doing this research. 14 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: And because as it is so fascinating, and since we 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: are splaying this into two episodes, we'll probably have to 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: look at other exotic materials in another one. Well, we'll 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: make some mention of stuff that is similar to what 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: carbon fiber is, but we're really going to focus on 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: carbon fiber because it's there's a lot there. Oh yeah, 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: there could have probably been way more than two episodes 21 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: about carbon fiber. If we had really gotten into gritty 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: details about about different uses for it and exactly if 23 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: we had gone into the history of this is the 24 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: first vehicle to use. If we had done that, this 25 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: would have been a three partter easily. But but if 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: you're not fans, we didn't go into that kind of 27 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 1: minute detail. We're going to tell you in this episode 28 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: about the history of developing carbon fiber. In our second 29 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: part we'll look more into how it's actually made and 30 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: the process that that you have to go through in 31 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: order to get a raw material to turn into carbon fiber, 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: and some of the challenges and benefits thereof. Yes, so, first, 33 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: what the heck is carbon fiber. It's a material made 34 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: up of thin strands of crystalline car been doctor, Well, 35 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: there you go. Episode over, Thanks guys. Yeah, but no, 36 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna give a little more detailed than that. 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: So the thickness of an individual strand of carbon fiber 38 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: can be thinner than a human hair by by many factors. 39 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and um, if you're wondering, yes, it is 40 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: in fact structurally similar to graphine and carbon nanotubes, the 41 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: difference being in the way that the sheets of carbon 42 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: atoms are are packed and interlocked. Yeah, this is one 43 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: of those amazing things about carbon. You know, if you 44 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: put the carbon atoms in one formation, you get this 45 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: very soft material that you would find in pencils, for example. 46 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: You put it in a different kind of modular combination 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: and you get diamond about as different as two substances 48 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 1: can being. Right, So it really shows that just by 49 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: changing these these orientations you can really change the properties 50 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: of this one material. Well, those little strands, those strands 51 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: that are thinner than a human hair, can be twisted 52 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: together to make a yarn like material and then oven 53 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: like cloth, which can then be laid in a mold 54 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: and then coated with resin or or a plastic so 55 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: that will take on a permanent shape. So, right, the 56 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: coated stuff itself is frequently referred to as carbon fiber, 57 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: but you may also see it more precisely referred to 58 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: as carbon fiber reinforced polymer. And that's it rolls off 59 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: the tongue, right, We're just going to call it carbon fiber, So, uh, 60 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: forgive us for taking a shortcut, but it has a 61 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: lot of interesting properties, right, So, for one thing, it's 62 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: five times stronger than steel and twice as stiff as steel, 63 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: but it's lighter than steel, about two thirds lighter by volume. 64 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: Also about eight times stronger than aluminum or aluminium depending 65 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: on where you live um, which is really handy since 66 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: aluminum is lower weight by volume is offset by its 67 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: lower strength, meaning that you have to use a lot 68 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: more of it to get stuff done. Right, So now 69 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: you've got this new material that you can use instead 70 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: of that in lots of different products, and as long 71 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: as it meets the needs of whatever that product is, 72 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: you are getting a benefit of something that's stronger and lighter. 73 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: That's pretty amazing stuff. So who does use this, Well, 74 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: the auto industry uses a lot of carbon fiber, right, 75 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: it's main mainly there to make the components of a 76 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: car lighter and stronger, which obviously I mean, that's the 77 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: properties of the material, so that makes sense to transfer 78 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: it to the final product. So why would you want 79 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: a lighter vehicle? The main reason is cause it takes 80 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: less power to move a lighter vehicle than a heavier vehicle, 81 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: So that means that you can make a more efficient engine. 82 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: You're using less energy to move the actual vehicle. And 83 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: as long as that vehicle has maintained its strength, so 84 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: you haven't compromised the safety of the people who are 85 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: in the vehicle. That's a good thing. Sure, carbon fiber 86 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: usually makes the car actually more resistant to impact than 87 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: it would be with just regular steel components. And in 88 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: terms of that efficiency, um, according to the oak Ridge 89 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: National Laboratory, which is this huge lab run by the 90 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: Department of Energy, you can make a car more efficient 91 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: just by trading out a steel body for a carbon 92 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: fiber one. So that means that you would end up 93 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: over time saving lots of money and fuel costs, not 94 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: to mention the environmental impact of having to consume less 95 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: fuel to get around. Uh. So, these are some interesting 96 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: uses of carbon fibers. Not the only one. There are 97 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: a lot of others will talk about. For example, we 98 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: you know Matt mentioned aerospace, a big, big industry that 99 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: it relies on carbon fiber. Yeah. Yeah, um, and a 100 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: lot of really mundane kind of things like golf clubs 101 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: or bicycles, fishing rods, sailboat masts and wind turbines. Yeah. 102 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: So the thing about carbon fiber is, well, I guess 103 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: we should go into the history and then I'll tell 104 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: you what the thing about carbon fiber is that's foreshadowing 105 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: so earliest use of carbon fibers. The interesting thing here 106 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: is that the earliest use I could find predates their 107 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: application in any of the industries we just mentioned. And 108 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: in fact, it wasn't even used to build something like 109 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: a structure. It wasn't used for its strength or lightness. 110 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: It was used for an entirely different property that's inherent 111 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: with carbon fiber, which is its resistance to heat. Thomas Edison, 112 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: A different kind of light. Yeah, yeah, exactly, not light 113 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: as in less heavy light as in let there be 114 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: so Thomas Edison, who, of course we know beloved Internet darling, 115 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,559 Speaker 1: one of the favorites of the I guess I forgot 116 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: to boo when when we when you said his name 117 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: right right? I'm sorry, Okay, well we'll we'll put it 118 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: in there for you Internet boo. Yes, Thomas Hays in 119 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: the Elephant electrocutor, who did not personally do that, but 120 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: still use them as filaments for early light bulbs way 121 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: back in eighteen seventy nine because of that high tolerance 122 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: for heat. Now they can also conduct electricity, but they 123 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: have a high resistance. If you remember, resistance is what 124 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: we'd call the the UH kind of opposing element that 125 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: keeps electrons from flowing through a material smoothly. So if 126 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: you have a high resistance and you want to try 127 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: and get electric electrons from point A to point B, 128 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: you're not getting as many to point B as we're 129 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: leaving point A because some of those are converted into 130 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: that electrons converting into heat. You're losing it through that resistance. 131 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: I'm oversimplifying, but this is basically what's happening. So with 132 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: light bulbs, that's exactly what you do want. You want 133 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: to have something that's heating up, and as it heats up, 134 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: it starts to give off photons, light particles. That's what 135 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: lets us see that light. And of course, in this 136 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: case we're talking about light that's in the visible spectrum, 137 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't be much used to us outside of that. So 138 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: you end up using this material that has a resistance 139 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: to high temperatures, because if it didn't, it would just 140 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: burn up. You know, you would get light, but it 141 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: would burn up, and then your light bulb would be useless. 142 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: That's just a fire, and that's less used exactly. And 143 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: while you would try and create a vacuum within the 144 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: light bulbs, so you couldn't really burn burn, you would 145 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: still end up having the material itself deteriorate really quickly 146 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: and the light bulb would be broken. And so anytime 147 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: you know when you have an old incandescent light bulb 148 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: and you hear it will pop and then you shake 149 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: it and you can hear the little chicken chinge. Yeah, 150 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: that's the filament that has given out because it has 151 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: been worn away so much. So anyway, the carbon fiber 152 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: tended to be a really good candidate for this filament, 153 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: and that's what Thomas Sen used. So how did he 154 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: create carbon fiber? Well, he carbonized something, which means that 155 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: you're taking one material and you're converting it into these 156 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: these carbon atoms, these crystalline structures of carbon atoms. Now, 157 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: specifically what Thomas Haysen was using was cotton and bamboo, 158 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: different different ones for different types of light bulbs. Experiment 159 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: with a lot of different materials. Sure, but but carbonization 160 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: is also how we make charcoal. We we carbonized would 161 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: that is exactly right? And so if you wanted to 162 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: carbonized wood, if you want to make your own charcoal, 163 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: you would have a few steps. One is that you 164 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: want to remove all the moisture you can from the 165 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: organic material, usually through evaporation and heating. So with would 166 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: we call it seasoning. And you may remember that just 167 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: in our recent podcast about the HMS victory, they would 168 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: season would in order to get as much moisture out 169 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: of it as possible and made the wood stronger as 170 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: a result. In this case, it's not to make the 171 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: wood stronger, it's really just to get rid of all 172 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: that moisture. And the next you would increase the temperature 173 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: to induce pyrolysisis it's a basic chemical change brought upon 174 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: a material through the application of heat. Okay, And what's 175 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: important in this chemical change is that you don't allow 176 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: any oxygen to come into contact with the material during 177 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 1: the process so that it can't burn. Right because, as 178 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: we remember, the three things you need are you need 179 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: you need fuel, you need oxygen, and you need heat 180 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: to create fire. So if you take any of those 181 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: three away, you don't have fire. So by taking the 182 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: oxygen away, you don't have to worry about prematurely burning 183 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 1: your material and you can convert it to carbon without 184 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,239 Speaker 1: it actually catching fire. Very important in any application, specifically 185 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: for charcoal, because you don't want to burn it before 186 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: you burn it right, Otherwise barbecues over before it began 187 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, I've been in some states that some 188 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: pre sad barbecue with organic material. That means getting all 189 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: this stuff carbon converted down to carbon, while the other 190 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: stuff like water vapor essentially just kind of evaporates away 191 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: or kind of vibrates away. Technically, the atoms that are 192 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: other than carbon in the material are expelled during the processing. Yeah, 193 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: you can kind of think like carbon, they're allowed to 194 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: stay at the party. Everyone else is encouraged by the 195 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: bouncer to leave. So uh happen to those parties. And 196 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: a lot of chemical processes go on through pyrolysis. There's 197 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: one called isomerization. That's when a molecule gets rearranged into 198 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: another molecule that has the same constituent atoms but a 199 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: different physical structure. You know, like I was mentioning earlier, 200 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: the you know, the way you construct carbon atoms together 201 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: can depend that that determines what properties that material has pencil, 202 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: lead or diamonds. Same thing with any other kind of molecule. 203 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: You just well, not any but different molecules. You rearrange 204 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: the structure of the molecule. You end up with stuff 205 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: that has very different properties from each other, which is 206 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: another fascinating thing. You say, all the basic ingredients are 207 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: the same, but just by the way you arrange the 208 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: atoms within that molecular structure, you change the actual properties 209 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: of the overall substance. This is what I think is 210 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: awesome about science. I don't fully understand it because I'm 211 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: not a chemist, but I really find it fascinating anyway. 212 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: Another thing that you would have going on through pyrolysis 213 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: is called transfer hydrogen hydrogenation. This is where you can 214 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: tell I'm not a chemist because I can't say any 215 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: of the words. But this is the addition of hydrogen, 216 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: as one would imagine to a molecule from a source 217 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: other than from hydrogen gas, which is not the easiest 218 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: thing to get hold of because again, hydro gen is 219 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: usually uh captured in some other kind of molecular bonds. 220 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: It gets pretty buddy buddy with most other things. Yeah, 221 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: it's um it's it's just a gregarious kind of atom. 222 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: It likes to hang out with Budli's. So what you're 223 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 1: left with is carbonized material. So in the case of 224 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: cotton or bamboo, it's very fibrous in nature, so then 225 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: you have carbon fibers. Again not meant to know. We've 226 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: together to make some sort of material that's stronger and 227 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: lighter than steel but still had very good use. So 228 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: these were the fibers that would conduct electricity. They had 229 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: the high resistance. You lose some of that energy as heat, 230 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: but that's exactly what you want, so you're not not 231 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: losing it so much as converting it over to heat 232 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: to create light. Um This is actually called incandescence, where 233 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: you heat up a material enough so that it starts 234 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: to give off light, hence the name incandescent light bulbs. 235 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: And you've probably seen this in multiple applications, not just 236 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: incandescent bulbs. I assume most of our our listeners have 237 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: seen an incandescent bulb, even though they are becoming more 238 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: and more rare. But in any material that has heated 239 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: up beyond it's that limit you start to see it glow, unless, 240 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: of course, it's flammable and it's in the presence of oxygen, 241 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: in which case you saw it catch fire. So that's 242 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: exactly why Thomas Hayston decided to use this and ended 243 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: up being a success. It took some experiments to get 244 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: it just right, and even then, um, you know, obviously 245 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: over time we made great improvements to the light bulb 246 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: using different types of material as filament, not just cotton 247 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: or bamboo carbon fibers. But that was the very first 248 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: application of carbon fibers in any kind of manufacturing process. 249 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of the history of carbon 250 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 1: fiber in just a moment, but first let's take a 251 00:13:53,960 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: quick break and we're back. So we're still in the 252 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: late nineteenth century. This is eighteen eighties six, and I 253 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: still can't believe it for such a space age quote 254 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: unquote space age. Yeah, yeah, it's to the nineteenth century. Yeah. Now, 255 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: granted again used for different purposes, but still it's when 256 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: you hear carbon fiber that sounds to me like maybe 257 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies was where it got started. But no, 258 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: I was completely wrong. So you have the National Carbon Company, 259 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: which was the first company to make synthetic carbon, and 260 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: it merged with another company called Union Carbide in nineteen seventeen, 261 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: and eventually that company became Union Carbide Corporation in nineteen 262 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: fifty seven. Now, the whole purpose of this was to 263 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: make carbon fibers for things like lightbulbs, so we're still 264 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: in that stage. And meanwhile, in the nineteen thirties he 265 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: had engineers who began to experiment with fiber reinforced composites 266 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: or FARPs, which fiber reinforced composite to f r P. 267 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: Uh it technically stands for fiber reinforced polymers, but still 268 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: it confuses me. Anyway. This is a composite material made 269 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: out of a pattern of polymers that are reinforced by fibers. 270 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: The fibers themselves are needed to enhance elasticity and strength 271 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: of this plastic material. So the first record use, according 272 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: to oak Ridge National Laboratory, was for a boat hole. 273 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: So we've you know, you've seen fiberglass boats. I'm sure. 274 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: I mean that there's a very common thing for small 275 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: boats in particular, seeing fiberglass boats. That's essentially what we're 276 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: talking about. So fiberglass is used in a lot of 277 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: different applications today. It's not the same thing as carbon fiber, 278 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: but the the process, well maybe not the process, but 279 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: the overall outcome using yeah, exactly, using fibers to reinforce 280 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: a structure uh is is very similar to what would 281 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: end up being used as in the carbon fiber industry, 282 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: especially when you have the goal of making something very 283 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: strong and very light weight exactly. So by the nineties, 284 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: the defense industry began to get really interested in f 285 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: rps for obvious reasons. So the search was on for 286 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: new types of fiber that can make stuff stronger and lighter, 287 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: and a lot of work and material science was dedicated 288 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: to finding out whether the theoretical strength of certain materials 289 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: could translate into practical use. So what was happening was 290 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: that scientists were studying various materials and they would say, 291 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: all right, based upon the molecular structure of this material, 292 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: in theory, it has x amount of strength compared to 293 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: some other material, and why amount of weight by volume 294 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: compared to some other material if we were able to 295 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: to manufacture it properly, and so the difference between theory 296 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: and reality often there's a gap there because we just 297 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: don't have the perfect way to manufacture the stuff that 298 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: is theoretically possible, or to manufacture it in a way 299 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: that is uh less than completely expensive. Yeah, this, especially 300 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: early on, that is a huge challenge because you often 301 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: have to invent new ways to create material so that 302 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: means that you have to spend a lot of money 303 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: in research and development and and to build specialty equipment 304 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: to make that stuff. It's one of the reasons why 305 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: carbon fiber is not as plentiful as it could be. 306 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: But we'll talk about that more later. Yeah, So, back 307 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, there were three really big drivers 308 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: in the United States that pushed the development of these 309 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: carbon fibers forward. That's true. So you had the industrial 310 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 1: demand for lightweight, strong material, which included industries like aerospace, electronics, 311 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: sports equipment, that kind of thing. Then there was the 312 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: work in solid state materials that predicted high potential crystal 313 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: strengths are certain types of material. This is what I 314 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 1: was talking about just a second ago, where people were 315 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: doing this kind of theoretical works saying, hey, if we 316 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: just rearranged stuff this way in theory, it should be 317 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: even stronger and lighter. Let's just find a way of 318 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: making that happen. The math worked out and the physical 319 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: process would follow. That's exactly right. And then the third 320 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: one was that and this is probably the most important driver. 321 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: During the nineteen fifties, the U s economy was going 322 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: like gangbusters, y'all, so with that kind of bounty, there 323 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: was doing so well that there was the ability to 324 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: afford in investing in research and development and pushing these 325 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: kind of technologies forward. Even if they had an initial 326 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: high price to get into it, we could afford to 327 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: do it. So that was a big driver. Actually. So 328 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: we get to the years of nine to nineteen sixty, 329 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: that's when we had companies, primarily the Union Car Byte 330 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: Corporation previously mentioned. Yep, they began to discover practical means 331 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 1: of using carbon fibers as reinforcement. Those f rps we 332 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: were talking about similar to that. It So these carbon 333 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: fibers didn't come from cotton or bamboo, right they were. 334 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: They were using materials like rayon or poly acrylon, nitrial 335 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: or pan. Yeah we're gonna say pan because I kind 336 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: of enjoy saying poly acryla night trial. I'll never be 337 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: able to do it. My my mouth parts don't work 338 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: that way. But no, carbon fibers from these are made 339 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: from precursor fibers, which is made from you know, the 340 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 1: ray on, our our pan. So the precursor fiber. We 341 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: we use precursor as the term for stuff that you're 342 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: going to convert into carbon fiber. And that at Loan 343 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: like the precursor stuff had its own manufacturing processes, right 344 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: you you had these are synthetic materials that we had 345 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: to create first, that then we would create into carbon fibers. 346 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a two step process in a 347 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: grand overview. Yes, many smaller steps within exactly, which we 348 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: will talk about in our second episode trust us for now. Yes, so, 349 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: but the important thing here to remember is that it's 350 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: not like you would go out to the fields and 351 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: get some rayon. You have to make the rayon first 352 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: and then you convert the rayon into carbon fiber. That 353 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 1: just cracked me out because the mental image of fields 354 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: of rayon was was a circle of hell. According to me, 355 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: the fields of Rayon I think would be a great 356 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: name for a band. Yeah, I'll get on that. But 357 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: the the important thing here was that using these types 358 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: of precursor fibers were what allowed them to create the 359 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: different shapes that carbon fiber could come into. They were 360 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: they were really well formed for that sort of stuff. 361 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: They were already strong and easily manipulatable. Yes, and if 362 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about the history of the 363 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: Union car by corporation and its role in this. I 364 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: recommend going to a c s dot Org. It has 365 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: a lot on the history of carbon fiber development, goes 366 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: into a huge amount detail. And again, if we were 367 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: to go into as much detail as some of these 368 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: sources do, we'd be doing like a five part series 369 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: and think some of you guys might get a little 370 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: antsy uh yeah. I I did want to mention in 371 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: three that there was a way to make carbon fibers 372 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: from petroleum pitch debut um and those are those are 373 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: so many solid polymers kind of kind of like tar. Yeah, yeah, 374 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: And that was that's different obviously because you can actually 375 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: find tar in nature. This was not something that you 376 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: would have to first create the polymer and then do 377 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: the carbonization on it. You could get the actual stuff 378 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: and then separate out what you needed and then do 379 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: the carbonization on that um. And they experimented with lots 380 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: of other materials to try and manufacture carbon fibers. That 381 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: included polyesters, polyfinal alcohol, and phenolic resins yep. But it 382 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: turned out that pan Rayon and pitched the first three 383 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: they really concentrate on, we're the most useful for creating 384 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: high strength material so so it turned out their their 385 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: initial impulse was exactly what made the most sense. It 386 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: also made the most sense from a dollar standpoint, like 387 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 1: the the having the manufacturing industries that are already established 388 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: for at least rayon and pan meant that it was 389 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: less expensive than to create something out of whole cloth, 390 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: and petroleum pitch could be a byproduct of the petroleum industries. 391 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: So that's kind of a that's kind of a gimme, Right, 392 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: it's time for another quick break, but we'll be back 393 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: with more history of carbon fiber. So getting back to 394 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: those drivers we were talking about, the two industries that 395 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: drove the carbon fiber development the most in those early 396 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: years were the aerospace industry and the defense industry. So 397 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: you had some outside crises like the oil crisis that 398 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: affected the pace of development. And now we've got a 399 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: lot of different industries that have a vested interest in 400 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: creating lightweight, resilient materials for products, and carbon fibers receive 401 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: a lot of attention as a result. You can imagine 402 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: aerospace being the big one because we all know the 403 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: heavier stuff is, the more expensive it is to try 404 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: and get it out into space. The more fuel you 405 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: need to get it to escape Earth's gravity so we 406 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: can get into orbit. So especially these days, every dollar counts, 407 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: so and obviously you want it to be really strong 408 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: material because of Yeah, because because space, as we have 409 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: established numerous times, is trying to kill you. So you 410 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: want to make sure that you have a nice, strong 411 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 1: barrier between you and space and and the deadly, deadly space. 412 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: So uh yeah, obviously a big important driver. And of 413 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: course we're getting right into that era to where the 414 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: United States and the Soviet Union both were racing against 415 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: each other to try and get people into orbit and 416 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: to get people to and from the Moon. So it 417 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: was there were a lot of incentives to develop this 418 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 1: kind of material. Now, there's some problems with carbon fiber. 419 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: They have nothing really to do with the properties of 420 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: the material real itself. And one of the big problems 421 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: is that there are only a few companies that actually 422 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: produce carbon fiber material. So the price of carbon fiber 423 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: is still relatively high, which limits its use in consumer 424 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: goods or just drives the prices of those goods way 425 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: up as a result. So yeah, only the the more 426 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: affluent can afford those type of those type of products 427 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: that incorporate carbon fiber. Yeah, the last time I checked, 428 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: I think cars that incorporate a lot of carbon fiber 429 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: in their bodies are still running around the hundred thousand 430 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: dollar starting price range. Yeah. I mean they tend to 431 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: be really high performance vehicles anyway, because if you're gonna 432 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: go with that, you might as well go all the way. 433 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: It's not just a civic engine tossingiber. But still, your 434 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: your point is is very very valid. It's according to 435 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: oak Ridge, there are three Japanese companies that make carbon fiber, 436 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: four that are in the United States and European countries, 437 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: and then one Taiwanese company and that's it that produce 438 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: carbon fiber at least on the industrial scale. So when 439 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: you have a limited supply, you know, each of those 440 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: each of those companies has a limited amount that they 441 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: can produce just based upon their their facilities, right, So 442 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: if you need more than what can be made, you're 443 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: kind of stuck. You know. Anyone who wants to make 444 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: anything using carbon fiber is kind of limited in where 445 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: they can get that raw material. Oh sure. And part 446 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: of the reason that so few companies produce it is 447 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: that there are huge challenges in in actually producing this stuff. Yeah, 448 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: so one of them is that you first have to 449 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,239 Speaker 1: get the precursor fibers. That's that's step one, right, You 450 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: have to have to create these precursors in order to 451 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: to turnam into carbon fibers. So either you either you're 452 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: buying it from some other company that manufactures it, or 453 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: you're making your own. But if you make your own, 454 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: that means you need two sets of manufacturing plants. Usually 455 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: you need one that's dedicated just to creating the precursors 456 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: and one that's decayed to carbonization. Now, some companies, like 457 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: the Japanese ones, have been co locating facilities so that 458 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: you have no real distance between the precursor facility and 459 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: the carbonization facility at least a little bit of money. Yeah, 460 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: but you know, not everyone has that luxury of being 461 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: able to build, you know, twice the facilities to make 462 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: one product. That also is another reason why the why 463 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: we have the expense. It's not just that, uh, there's 464 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: so relatively little of it to go around, but also 465 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: that it does take this very involved process to actually 466 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: make the stuff. So um. Other companies have actually bought 467 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: up old textile plants and used them to produce the 468 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: precursor fibers. Yeah, I'm wondering. Uh. Actually my my, uh 469 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: my grandfather on my father's side worked in such a 470 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: textile plant, which I believe is being converted over into 471 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: something like that. So that's kind of interesting. One of 472 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: my grandparents was also in textiles. So now I now 473 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: I'm curious. I need to look up the plant in 474 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania that he worked in. The one in Georgia that 475 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: that my grandfather worked in once had its roof ripped 476 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: off by the torn you know. But that's a different 477 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: podcast entirely. So another Yeah, I guess I'll have to 478 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,239 Speaker 1: wait till we until it comes back around again. Uh, 479 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: that was just for you Internet. So another strategy, uh 480 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: as far as the manufacturing and sale of carbon fiber goes, 481 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: is to include post materials processing with the production facility, 482 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 1: which means that instead of just creating raw carbon fiber, 483 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 1: which you would you can imagine like think of an 484 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,959 Speaker 1: enormous spool of thread. I mean, it's just the huge 485 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: spools that have this thread that again is thinner than 486 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: a human hair wounds are. In some cases, they're all 487 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: kind of um braided together to make to make a 488 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: rope yarn, Yeah, like yarn or rope. You could just 489 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: buy that stuff, just the raw material there once it's 490 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: been produced, but then that means that whatever you are making, 491 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: you have to have the facility to be able to 492 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: take that raw material and shape it or or otherwise 493 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: post processes and then coated in whatever resin you want. 494 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: So some of these companies are creating that post production 495 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: facility where they can do some of the treatment ahead 496 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: of time so that it's a lot easier for other 497 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: companies to convert this into products. So that way you 498 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: remove a necessary step that the other company has to 499 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: do and make it a more attractive product. So that 500 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: might include weaving the fibers together, braiding them, or treating 501 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: them with those resins for molding, so that you know 502 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: you're not necessarily molding the stuff already, you're just pre 503 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: treating it so that it can be molded faster once 504 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: it gets to whatever company is buying the raw material. 505 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: That's the other reason why this gets expensive, right, because 506 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: not only do you have a two step too big 507 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: step process in just producing the carbon fiber itself, then 508 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: you have the whole manufacturing process of turning the carbon 509 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: fiber into a useful product. So every time we add 510 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: another process, you're adding to the cost. So, uh, anyway, 511 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: it's pretty cool idea to try and pare all this 512 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: together to help make carbon fiber a more attractive option 513 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: because obvious slee the demand is there, it's the supply 514 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: that we're trying to to perfect. Right, So this is 515 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: about where we are going to end for today's episode, 516 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: But when we come back next time, we're going to 517 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: go into detail about that manufacturing process, why it's so expensive, 518 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: and what's being done in the industry to try to 519 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: make it less expensive. Yeah, it's a really cool process, 520 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: and I'm glad that we decided to make this two 521 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: episodes because I really want to be able to explain 522 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: and and go into exactly what's going on behind the scenes. 523 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: It's pretty neat stuff. That wraps up this classic episode 524 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: of tech Stuff. Published again on June two, two thousand 525 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: and fourteen. I'll probably have to do an update about 526 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: carbon fiber, do a full episode about what we use 527 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: it for and you know, some of the things that 528 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: we hope to use it for in the future, and 529 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: if you have any suggestions for topics I should cover 530 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: in future episodes. Of tech Stuff, Reach up to me 531 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: on Twitter. The handle for the show is text Stuff H. 532 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: S W and I'll talk to you again really soon. 533 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: Text Stuff is an I Heart Radio production. For more 534 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, 535 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.