1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Hello. I'm Stephanie Flanders, and this is the first episode 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: of Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the global economy to 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: you with on the ground reports every week from Bloomberg's 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: army of economic journalists, and smart conversation with Bloomberg analysts 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: and outside experts on economic issues that matter. What's the 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: world going to be like in ten or fifteen years 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: time and what kind of future is it going to 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: offer to me and my kids. You don't have to 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: be an economist to ask that question, you just have 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: to be human. Before our eyes, technology is transforming the 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: way we work, shrinking national boundaries and creating the most 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: powerful corporate empires the world's ever seen. Now Bloomberg, we 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: have over one hundred economic journalists out there taking stock 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: of this new global economy, and usually our senior Trade 15 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: and globalization reporter Sean Donnan is one of them, but 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: recently he decided he might learn more at home playing 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: online video games with his son. Frankly, I was skeptical, 18 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: but you know what, he was right. In a few minutes, 19 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about video games, trade, and the 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,279 Speaker 1: world economy with Professor Richard Baldwin, probably the world's leading 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: economic thinker on globalization, but first his Sean and his 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: son so. On July the two thousand and eighteen, not 23 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: too long ago, Fortnite officially went global when it released 24 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: in China. That means that the whole world now at 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: least I think you're listening to a British YouTube star 26 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: called Alistair Aiken or ali a as he's known to 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: most of the more than fifteen million, largely teenage followers 28 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: who watched videos of him playing computer games. He's a 29 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: twenty five year old with a pension for trucker hats 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: and T shirts, and one of the stars of a 31 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: multimillion dollar cottage industry that pumps out thousands of videos 32 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: each week. And it may sound crazy, he is a 33 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: good place to start if you want to understand globalization 34 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: and the new directions the global economy is taking today. 35 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how long I'm gonna have access to 36 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: the service. I may get banned any point. I have 37 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: no idea. This is all a crazy experiment. A few 38 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: months ago, just after a small group of Chinese players 39 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: first got access to the shoot him up video game Fortnite, 40 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: Allier navigated around firewalls and language barriers from his home 41 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: in suburban London and logged onto what looked like a 42 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: desolate corner of the Fortnite universe in China. Look at that. 43 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: Everything's got his own Chinese equivalent name for the mass. 44 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to try out a Chinese salty Salty. Fortnite. 45 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: If you haven't heard about it is the biggest gaming 46 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: phenomenon in the world, with more than two hundred million 47 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: registered players. It features a hundred heavily armed virtual players 48 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: at a time doing battle on at apocalyptic island. What 49 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: Allier was doing was actually something that a lot of 50 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: Fortnite players, including my thirteen year old son, had started doing, 51 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: logging on to overseas servers to go in search of 52 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: newer players who might make easy marks. The goal was 53 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: to help them build a bit of teenage street cred. 54 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: Think of it as digital arbitrum. Obviously, China have had 55 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: games for ages, so it's not like they're going to 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: be utterly terrible or trash at Fortnite, but the game 57 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: has been out for once. They don't have the math 58 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: knowledge and maybe they're not too good at building. That's 59 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: what I'm interested in funding out, is that on it's 60 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: okay all right, So you're getting it up. You're gotta 61 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: it already. Now I must have to log in. Like 62 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: many fathers of a teenager, I've watched my son Aidan, 63 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: over the past year get embroiled in the Fortnight phenomena, 64 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: and a recent afternoon he tried to help me understand 65 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: what it was all about. So, Aiden, what is it 66 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: about this game Fortnite that you like so much? It's 67 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: just it's a fun game, and it's a very social 68 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: game where without hanging out with your friend, Fortnite is 69 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: also much more than a computer game. The U S 70 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: and China may be locked in a trade war, but 71 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: Fortnite itself is a product of Sino American cooperation. Epic Games, 72 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: the North Carolina based studio behind the title, is owned 73 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: by China's ten Cent, one of the world's largest social 74 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: media companies, and that's the second way in which Fortnite 75 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: is emblematic of globalization today. Its success is in part 76 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: about the role of Chinese capital. Fortnite is free to 77 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: play and has been able to therefore build up those 78 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: more than two hundred million registered users worldwide because of 79 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: a three hundred and thirty million dollar investment that ten 80 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: Cent made in two thousand twelve. You could be this. 81 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: She could be the Calumny. Okay, I'll be the Calamity. 82 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: That's no, there's Tom just like your best drinking I 83 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: like this guy like that. Let's go to the Oh 84 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: yeah wait, hang on, that's like a crazy halloween head. 85 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: Yeah it was a Halloween Okay, so you paid money 86 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: for that. There's a third way that Fortnite is emblematic 87 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: a globalization today, and that may be the one we 88 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: think least about. Anna pem Chander is a law professor 89 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: at Georgetown University and an expert on the world of 90 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: digital trade and how governments are trying to regulate your technologies. 91 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: He's the author of The Electronic Silk Road, a book 92 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: about how the Internet has reshaped the global economy, and 93 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: he argues that if the Internet has become an everyday 94 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: part of our lives, then so too has without us 95 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: really thinking about it, digital globalization. So everything has become 96 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: essentially part of the digital economy. Are you know when 97 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: we communicate with people, when we go out in a date? 98 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: Who ship? It might be when least when you set 99 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: up your wedding registry, it's all done online. Um so 100 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: a traditional economies everywhere the and much of it is 101 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: international with that art even knowing it. Just think about 102 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: the conversations we now have about trade wars and globalization. 103 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: Often we focus on physical goods such as steel beams, cars, 104 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: or soybeans. The reality is that the integration of economies 105 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: these days is increasingly a digital one that happens in 106 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: invisible daily bursts that Donald Trump and all of his 107 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: tariffs have not even thought of touching. Yet. Fortnite is 108 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: only sort of free. Part of the craze surrounding it 109 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: has to do with its victory dances with names like 110 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: Orange Justice that have permeated into mainstream culture. In the 111 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 1: world of Fortnite, those are called emotes, and they cost money. 112 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: In some cases, they have become so valuable that they 113 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: have become the targets of legal battles. So what's your 114 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: favorite Fortnite dance? My favorites Actually, um, it's a pretty 115 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: old one. It's called Fresh. It's the little like jingle 116 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: from the old TV show The Fresh Prince of bel Air. 117 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: That little Okay. It was just kind of one of 118 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: those embarrassing emots that I would just watch over and 119 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: over again. That dance you may know it as the 120 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: Carlton dance from the TV show The Fresh Prince of 121 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: bel Air is one of Fortnit's most popular. It's so 122 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: popular that Alfonso Ribero, the actor who played Carlton on 123 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: the show, in December, sued the creators of Fortnite and 124 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: in another video game, arguing they had used his invention 125 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: without his permission. That dance is also a good way 126 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: of thinking about digital trade and some of its pitfalls. 127 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: When a player in Asia or Germany buy something from Fortnite, 128 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: they are effectively buying a digital good, something potentially made 129 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: by one of the designers that Epic Games North Carolina headquarters. 130 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: There is both revenue and a good job tied to it. 131 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: The thing is that sort of digital transaction doesn't always 132 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: show up in the economic data, or often ends up 133 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: being lost in the mix. And given the explosive growth 134 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: we've seen of digital trade, which includes everything from simple 135 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: e commerce to gaming to using software in the cloud, 136 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: that actually matters, especially in a world where we sometimes 137 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: talk about globalization, at least the physical goods part of 138 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: it slowing down due to protectionism that we've seen grow 139 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: in recent years. Here's Professor Chander again, so I think 140 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: it's actually just growing, but it's very hard to see 141 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: because it's all happening behind the scenes, um in these 142 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: electronic wires, in these in these the underground cables or 143 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: undersea cables, and we don't even realize that we're participating 144 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: in global commerce all the time. Researchers at the McKenzie 145 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: Global Institute did the math a few years ago and 146 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: found that data flows around the world in two thousand 147 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: fourteen were worth about two point eight trillion dollars. They 148 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 1: also added more to growth that year than the traditional 149 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: trade in goods. But data is scarce and a lot 150 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: of things going reported in the digital economy, and it's 151 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: not just games or Netflix that we're talking about. How variant. 152 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: The chief economist at Google points to operating systems made 153 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: in the US installed on smartphones assembled in Asia. They 154 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: don't show up in the trade data, and if they did, 155 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: they would take roughly a hundred and twenty billion dollars 156 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: off what in two thousand seventeen was the U S 157 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: is five hundred billion dollar trade deficit with the world. 158 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: All of this means that as much as the parent 159 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: in me flinches slightly every time I come home and 160 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: find my son playing Fortnite. What I'm really watching is 161 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: a new generation engaging in the future of globalization. It's 162 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: a future that is evolving much faster than many of 163 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: us or the data can either imagine or catch. So 164 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: can you show me how to do that? It's really ship. Basically, 165 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: what are you gotta do is go to the lobby 166 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: um and you cook into the menu somewhere in the 167 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: world of Fortnite. I'm Sean Donna from blombergun PC. You 168 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: just click it and then you scroll over to settings, 169 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: which is like the little call. You hit on that, 170 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: and then it's smash making. You can flick through that 171 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: east West. So that was Sean Donnan. We're going to 172 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: catch up with him in a few minutes. But first 173 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to say that we have Richard Baldwin 174 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: to talk to us about that piece and what it 175 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 1: means for the global economy. Richard is a sort of 176 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: international economics at the Graduate Institute of International and Development 177 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: Studies in Geneva. He's been researching globalization a long time 178 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: and I think it's fair to say you, Richard, have 179 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: written at least two books, and that's just in my 180 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: recent memory. That have changed the way I think about 181 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: globalization and where the way a lot of people think 182 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: about it. The Great Convergence, which was in twenty sixteen, 183 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: and now your latest book is that the Globotics Upheaval. 184 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: When you listen to Sean's piece, obviously part of it 185 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: is just a sort of interesting tale of this global 186 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: phenomenon which is Fortnight, But some of the themes there 187 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: did seem to me resonated from what you've talked about 188 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: globalization and the way it's changing. Where do we fit 189 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: Fortnight into the sort of the history of globalization if 190 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: you like. So, the way I like to put it is, 191 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: every day we read about how artificial intelligence is making 192 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: robots smarter and computer smarter, but we've forgotten that the 193 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: exact same technologlogy digital technology is transforming globalization. Now. One 194 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: of the places where it actually did this first and 195 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: a different generation from you and I know about, is 196 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 1: online games. So online people have been living in this 197 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: digitally connected global world for a long time and playing 198 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: with each other, etcetera, etcetera. Um, but it's starting to 199 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:25,359 Speaker 1: come into the workplace. So just as people are telecommuting domestically, 200 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: what's happening now is that telecommuting is happening more internationally, 201 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: and that's bringing professional white collar office workers in rich 202 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: countries into direct wage competition with very talented, low cost 203 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: foreigners sitting abroad. There as as I call it in 204 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: my book, they're telemigrating. They're not migrating, but they're telemigrating, 205 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: and so I guess that's for me. That's what you 206 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: take away is that this is two things. I guess 207 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: that this tells us this sort of new kind of trade. 208 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: You know, One is that the globalization is happening. It's 209 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: not in retreat. You know when you read the headlines 210 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: about this, you know Donald Trump doesn't trade and now 211 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: we're in trade wars and globalizations going into reverse. I mean, 212 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: this is shows us that, no, it's continuing very rapidly, 213 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: but it's in this realm that we don't necessarily capture 214 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: in the statistics. The other thing, which I think in 215 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: a way is more important for economists, is it's changing 216 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: the what is tradeable in the world economy, and the 217 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: the amount of global economic activity which can be traded, 218 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: which can cross borders is dramatically increasing. Does it master 219 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: if we're not capturing that in the international statistics, well 220 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: statistics who use to guide policy and know what's going on, 221 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: and um, the fact that it's not captured in the 222 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: statistics I think is a problem. And you see systematic 223 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: misdirection of attention in the rich countries just Donald Trump 224 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: and Brexit for example, misunderstanding how important export of services 225 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: are to modern economies and how many jobs depend upon them. 226 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: So I think that is is an issue. But you know, 227 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: deep down you can find out about these things, and 228 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: if you're in the business world, you know, things like 229 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: up work and white color robots like blue Prism and 230 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: things like that. Those are really growing very very fast, 231 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: so you can kind of tell that it's happening even 232 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: though there's not good statistics on what's happening. But do 233 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: you think you know, we always used to say when 234 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: I was learning economics, they say the definition of a 235 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: good is something that when you're contrasting goods and services, 236 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: it's something you can drop on your foot, you know, 237 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: and thosset are the things that you couldn't drop on 238 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: your foot. Services you couldn't trade that we're not and 239 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: we tended to think we're protected. How quickly is that changing? 240 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: I mean ten years time. In fifteen years time, what 241 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: proportion of services will be TRADEA or do you think? Right? 242 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: So at an explosive pace, that's that's the answer. So 243 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: we're doubling our ability to process information, gather information, store information, 244 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: transmit information. And that's essentially what services are people exchanging 245 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: and manipulating information. And before, as you said, you know, 246 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: services typically involved people being in the same place at 247 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: the same time, so they were considered non tradable. But 248 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: it was like as if there was a thousand percent 249 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: tariff on doing bookkeeping while you're sitting in Kenya for 250 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: a company that's in London. But this digital technology is 251 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: is having that tariff every two years or if not faster, 252 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: So it's coming at an incredibly fast pace. And these 253 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: online services, you can sort amount of freelancing revenue that's 254 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: going is increasing per year, which means that it doubles 255 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: every year. So right now it's starting from a reasonably 256 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: small base, but if you double every few years, within 257 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: five years or ten years, I think it will be 258 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: a very important element. And I should say that the 259 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: reason I'm so confident about that is because it already 260 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: is in certain types of services. So in web development, 261 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: for example, they frequently get a friend of mine works 262 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: and lows on and he organizes, say a programmer in Pakistan, 263 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: user experience expert in Canada, and a web designer graphic 264 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: designer in Uruguay, and they get on the screens his 265 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: screens in Switzerland. They work together very intensively over two 266 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: days to do a great website. And that's absolutely normal 267 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: in that world. It's just that stuff is going to 268 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: go mainstream. Or another way to think about it is, 269 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: think of all the people in your office who are 270 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: telecommuting from home a day a week or half day 271 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: a week. That is opening the door to international telecommuting. 272 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: Because what we're doing is we're changing the way we 273 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: work to make it easier to slot in workers remotely. 274 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: And once we do that, our companies will figure out 275 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: that they're going to be able to get at least 276 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: some of those tasks done for one tenth of the price. 277 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: So I think that will be, uh, you know, an 278 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: absolutely huge change. I call it the talent tsunami. So 279 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: in one way, if you think about the nine nineties, 280 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: was hundreds of millions of people joined the factory workforce globally, 281 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: and that changed the way factory work was in our countries. 282 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: The two thousand twenty is hundreds of millions of people 283 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: joining the service workforce, and they're not all going to 284 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: find jobs right away. But just as the wave of 285 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: supply of low cost talent affected the way manufacturing was 286 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: done and where it was done, I think the same 287 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: thing will happen in the service sector. And what does 288 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: that mean for people like Sean's son. You know, we 289 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: obviously had there's a sort of positive story from from 290 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: his piece that actually it's kind of unfair competition the 291 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: other way when it comes to Fortnite, because you've got 292 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: these American teenagers who are competing with maybe less skilled 293 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: and certainly less practiced Fortnite players in Brazil and elsewhere. 294 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: But what is going to affect Sean Son's future. Well, 295 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: so I'm glad you pointed that out, because globalization always 296 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: means more opportunities for country's most competitive workers and firms 297 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: because it opens up more customers, more markets for them, 298 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: and they are competitive, and there are people like potentially 299 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: Sean's son in Fortnite who is globally competitive and this 300 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: gives him more opportunities. But global say and is always 301 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: more competition for your least competitive citizens and companies, and 302 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: that's the way it always has been. Is just going 303 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: to come to the service sector. I think the big 304 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: difference is that people in the service sector, as you 305 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, viewed their jobs as protected from direct foreign 306 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: wage competition. But ultimately digital technology is making remote people 307 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: less remote in many ways and therefore igniting this competition. 308 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: If I could just put it in one context, I 309 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: think of globalization as arbitrage. So you have different prices 310 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: of different places people by low this all high what 311 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: it's driven by as price differences. You've taken us to 312 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: the crux of it, which is how should governments be responding? 313 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: How should people be responding. I mean you started by saying, 314 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, we've been just distracted by this talk of 315 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: of trade wars and a lot of this sort of 316 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: old fashioned talk around globalization, which is to do with goods, 317 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: when actually sort of beneath the surface, there's this structural 318 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: change that we're just not getting. You know, if a 319 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: government woke up tomorrow, read all your books, um, and 320 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: then asked you, how should I be doing things differently? 321 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: What do you say? Well, so, first of all, I 322 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: don't think it's fundamentally that different. I mean people will 323 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: have to change jobs because of global competition and automation 324 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: in the service sector, just as I've had to do 325 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: for the last three centuries. So the first thing is 326 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: the government should help people adjust. As I like to say, 327 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: they should protect workers, not jobs. The key is the 328 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: world's changing. The government should help people retrain, move, income 329 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: support if they need it, whatever. And then if it 330 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: all goes too fast and it becomes socially disruptive, I 331 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: think the governments have to stand ready to slow it down. 332 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: And that that is where we may come from, especially 333 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: in countries like the US where there is no real 334 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: active labor market management, there's there's very little support for workers. 335 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: They may may end up having to slow it down 336 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: with regulations and taxations and things like that. Well, and 337 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: then we'll probably that's going to be the subject of 338 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: many more podcasts, I'm sure, is how you actually can 339 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: navigate these differences, and maybe you know some of where 340 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: some governments are going to do better than others in 341 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: helping people get through the transition. But for the meantime, 342 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: Professor Richibaldwin, thank you very much. Thank you so sure. 343 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: You know we managed to get a lot out of 344 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: your pieces. You could hear talking to Richard Bolden. Was 345 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: there anything that surprised you or that has made you 346 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: doing this piece, has made you want to go and 347 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: do more? Yeah. I think one of the big things 348 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: that we didn't get Richard talking about there, and one 349 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: of the things I'm thinking more and more about is 350 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: the distinction we make between goods and services. I'm not 351 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: sure that distinction is as valid as it once was. 352 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: I think my son certainly, when he buys something on 353 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: Fortnite that sort of we think about that as a service, 354 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: but he certainly thinks about that as a tangible good. 355 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: He certainly argues when he's spending money on Fortnite that 356 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: it's a tangible good and that it will give him 357 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: a tangible benefit. Um, there's that, But then there's some 358 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: very real changes in manufacturing patterns that we to be 359 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: thinking about. Three D printing means that oftentimes a company, 360 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: or increasingly a company is going to be emailing a 361 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: kind of production file to a bank of three D 362 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: printers in a far off land rather than shipping a 363 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: widget via container. So how do we how do we 364 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: account for that in the trade data? And then there's 365 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: all the soft stuff that sort of sits on our iPhone, 366 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: the operating systems, the apps and so on. We think 367 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: of those as services, but you know, in many ways 368 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: they're good. And do you find I mean, of course, 369 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: you're also having to report the sort of plane of 370 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: vanilla trade statistics. Often the US data gets a lot 371 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: of attention. You know, do you feel when you're writing 372 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: these stories, is that you have to sort of stop 373 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: yourself from saying, but these aren't really the biggest numbers. 374 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: You pay attention to be done. The numbers absolutely, So 375 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: there's a you know, there's there's it feels sometimes like 376 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: there's a big lie in the data. And it's not 377 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: just about capturing. Now you're sounding like Donald Trump, I know, 378 00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: I know, I know they're gonna be careful here. You're 379 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: telling me a trade data is fake news. Well, you know, 380 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: there's an element of truth to that line, and that 381 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: is it's certainly misleading. And it's not just about capturing 382 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: or not capturing uh services trade around the world. It's 383 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: also you know, where we measure the value that's added 384 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: in supply chains. You know that the iPhone is the 385 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: great example of that. We h the wholesale cost iPhone 386 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: leaves China, and that's what shows up as an export 387 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: to the United States, when we all know that most 388 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: of the value goes to Apple, which is a US 389 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: based company. Do you think there's any prospect of the 390 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: sort of public debate actually getting into some of these 391 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: areas because you know, part from aending else the data 392 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: is very bad. Um. It also makes for very complicated 393 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: policy making. I mean, I guess there's there's a good 394 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: reason why we're not getting clear pronouncements on this because 395 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: it is, let's say, because we don't have the data 396 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: and because I'm not really sure we have the answers. Well, 397 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: this has always been the problem with with debates about trade, 398 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: or political debates about trade, is the kind of the 399 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: negatives are easy to identify. Uh, they're very tangible, and 400 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: that comes in in a closed factory, and the benefits 401 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: are are more diffuse, and that gets into you know, 402 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: the realities now are are are more diffuse, and as 403 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: we say in the piece there, they're hidden oftentimes are 404 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: in these kind of pipes underground and they're hidden away 405 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: into data. And that means we're just not having a 406 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: debate we should be uh, and it's a pretty wonkish debate. 407 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: It's it's not one that makes for good TV, but 408 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: a very good podcast it turns out. So finally, I mean, 409 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm struck. I mean, you spend your time, 410 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: you're talking to these talking to businesses. In that piece, 411 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: you were talking to people who are very familiar with 412 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: all of the nuance and the subtleties of global trade. 413 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: And yet we still have a very fierce debate in 414 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: the newspapers and on TV and on Twitter, um about 415 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's trade policy, about tariffs, on this and that. 416 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: I mean, is it just sort of two sides of 417 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: their brain that these businesses, business leaders are using, you know, 418 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: the one hand they kind of come out have these 419 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: views and act like the tariffs are the most important thing, 420 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: and then the other half of their brain they kind 421 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: of know that this is not really where the action is. Yeah. Well, look, 422 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: I mean there's no doubt that there's a very real 423 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: impact that we've seen from the tariffs on on the 424 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: economy and on businesses. We've seen higher prices for steel 425 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: here in the United States, We've seen farmers famously get 426 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: hit very hard, UH as part of the retaliatory measures 427 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: that China and Mexico and others have taken against US tariffs, 428 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: so you know there's there's something very real and very 429 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: tangible there. But as I said beforehand, that kind of 430 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,719 Speaker 1: more diffuse debate is about the realities or the digital 431 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: realities of globalization is harder to have. That doesn't mean 432 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: that businesses don't know that this is going on. In 433 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: some ways, they're kind of happy to fly under the 434 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: radar a little bit because their concern is that once 435 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: a government gets ahold of some of these things, that 436 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: they may in fact start to regulate, and no business 437 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: x regulation. Right. Well, Shawn donand our senior trade reporter, 438 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: I look forward to hearing about other members of your 439 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: family in future reports. But in the meantime, you've got 440 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: plenty plenty on your hands thinking and writing about trade. 441 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: I know one of our one of our much younger colleagues, 442 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: said to me the other day that there was never 443 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: a dull moment in global trade, and I had to 444 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: assure her that there had been plenty of dull moments, 445 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: but they're definitely not happening now. Thanks to you, Shual, 446 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Thanks for listening to Stephanomics with me. 447 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: Stephanie Flanders. Please join us next week for another episode 448 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: about the forces shaping the global economy. In the meantime, 449 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, 450 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: or our Bloomberg app, as well as anywhere else where 451 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Please take the time to rate 452 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: and review the show so it can reach more listeners, 453 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: and for more news and analysis from Bloomberg Economics, follow 454 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: as Economics on Twitter. You can also find me on 455 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: at my Stephanomics. The story in this episode was reported 456 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: and written by Sean Donnan. It was produced by Magnus 457 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: Hendrickson and edited by Scott Lamman, who is also the 458 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: executive producer of Stephanomics. Should's original article on the topic 459 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: appeared on Bloomberg Business Week and was edited by Christina Lyndblad. 460 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Richard Baldwin and Aiden Donnan. Francesca Levy 461 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.