WEBVTT - Live from SXSW [bonus] 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.080 And Atlanta. Another body was this covering today at Police 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:16.439 Task Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered, 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.080 one missing. We do not know the person or persons 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.600 whatever responsible. Therefore, we do not have the moody from 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.200 Tenderfoot TV and how stiff works in Atlanta. Like eleven 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.640 other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was a fixynor. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.440 Atlanta was unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:48.560 on killing. This is Atlanta monster. That's a great crowd. 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.440 They're ready. Uh it's ten pm. Do you know where 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.160 your children are? We have kind of a young audience here. 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:57.320 How many of you remember hearing that as a kid 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.560 growing up? And did you know the story behind it? 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.360 I know, I for one, kind of felt like it 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:04.880 was strange and I didn't really understand, but I knew 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.000 it was bad, but I didn't know what the true 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.520 story was behind it. And as we get in today, 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.840 I'd love to hear kind of how you came together, um, 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.760 from your two sides of how stuff works and Tenderfoot 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:21.280 TV to bring the story to life. Well, it actually 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:25.080 starts with you, guys, because was it email me first? 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.000 Or how that work? It was it was really weird. Um, 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.080 believe it or not, We're in the same building in 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.399 Atlanta and we didn't know it. Um, And through some 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:38.920 circumstances I found out and I said, hey, I reached 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:40.800 out to Paint and said, let's come on down and 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.320 have coffee and some So Painton and Donald came down, 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.800 and uh, we just started talking and I said, you know, 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.520 up and vanishes really great, and I think the next 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.880 project that we should do together is on this Atlanta 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.360 child murders case that I was nine ten years old 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:59.600 at the time. Really fascinating, even though I didn't live 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.920 anywhere near Atlanta. And they looked at me like, yeah, 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.680 we talked about that two weeks ago, and uh, and 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:07.320 we kind of looked at each other and said, well, 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:10.200 then we have to do it. Yeah. I mean he 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:12.120 did to take it one step, you know, back, one 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.239 step further. The reason we were even in the same 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.120 building is because we're looking for office space. And then 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:18.920 pain was like, I think how stuff works is in 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:20.880 the same buildings. Were like, okay, well that's he was 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:23.880 the deal. Listen the real podcast. Yeah, yeah, the truth 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.280 comes out on the tune in stage. So basically, you 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:33.600 were hunting down down right. So but um, yeah, So 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:35.320 you know when we sat down with Jason and he 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:37.800 presented the idea of a lot of child murders to us, 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.160 you know, we had literally just talked about it weeks ago, 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:43.040 and it was something that Paine hadn't heard about before. Um, 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.040 he wasn't even born when it was happening, when the 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.000 when the merger were taking place. Um, I was about 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.320 four years old, all the way in California, that's two 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.960 thousand miles away from where those tragedies were. You know, 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.320 we're happening. But I still remember hearing about it, and 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.160 UM remember those commercials, not not really understanding what's back 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.240 of those commercials were about, but just growing up being 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.880 black and um, just having this effect the black community 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:11.079 with the black black victims. Um. And and eventually they 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.600 you know, caught a black serial killer. Um. It was 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:16.839 something that we just I just heard about all the time. 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.040 So we're looking for something to do a new podcast 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.520 before the seconds even up Advantaged and I said, you know, Paint, 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:24.959 have you heard this before? And I sent him and 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.480 send it to him and he was intrigued, and you know, 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.800 just went from there and Jason, what was it about? 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.480 Working with Payne and Donald that you an aside from 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:36.960 them stalking outside your building. Yeah, I didn't have a 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:41.760 choice at that point, you know. I think, Um, you know, 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.120 House Works has been doing podcasts for about ten years, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:49.760 you know, and UM, what I appreciate about podcasts, um, 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:51.800 and I hope this stay is true, is that there's 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.880 not kind of a cookie cut cutter template to how 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.840 things should be done. And what I really really appreciated 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.160 about Up and Advantaged is it was there was kind 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.800 of no rules and so so pain you know, came 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:08.440 from filmmaking. Um, he had definite ideas around kind of 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:10.600 what it meant to tell his story. And I loved, 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.360 you know, the layered approach to things, using sound, using 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.680 music for emotion, um, you know, frankly, kind of being 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.880 fearless about it. Where, UM, I feel like we don't 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.480 do that enough in the industry, where let's let's tell 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.719 a big story, let's talk to everyone that we can 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.160 and see where it goes, and you might be surprised 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.160 where that story might end up. And I think Up 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.600 and Vantage is a perfect example of if you're persistent 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.599 and you embed yourself in the community and you talk 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.200 to people and they just know that you're someone they 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.000 can talk to. Things can happen. And I think, um, 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.800 that was just really interesting to me and um and 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.760 and it just speaks to telling big stories. And I 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.240 think that this industry is just right for you know, 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.800 early on it was serial it was s town, etcetera, etcetera. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.480 Think there should be twenty or thirty or forty of 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:06.719 these each year where these kind of monumental layered stories 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.360 with you know, kind of so many twists and turns, 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.600 but also just the layers of that story are just 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:16.200 super interesting to me. And so I really admired all 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.200 those qualities. And I've kind of felt like the combination 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.960 of our efforts would um would kind of be a 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.480 power house story if we really put our heads together. 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.280 And I think I think we've done that now. This 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.680 story in particular, no one was telling. There haven't been movies, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.000 there haven't been kind of the same the There's been 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:35.880 some books in writing, but there just hasn't been the 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:40.200 same kind of continuous examination that there have been for 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.880 things like The Zodiac Killer. How did you feel about 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.080 that in terms of coming into it and the approach 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.680 that you took, but also knowing that there was so 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:58.359 much hesitation from other people jumping into it. It really 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.960 that was one of the main you know, motivations behind 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.000 us wanting to do it was that Paine never heard 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.080 of it. He grew up in Kennesaw. I was after 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.640 you know, it happened. But you know, plenty of people 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.640 didn't grow up during the era of you know, Zodiac 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.760 or you know these other serial killers that have been 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.719 you know ingrained in our mind through TV series and 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.560 books and all these different um adaptations of movies, but 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:27.640 this was something where it was kind of forgotten, and 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.680 you know, doing some digging within the podcast, it's there's 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.960 there's a reason why, um. I think initially, you know, 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:39.040 these were all poor black victims and just historically you're 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.440 not going to get the same attention being poor number 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.920 one and then being a minority number two. So that's 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:45.280 one of the reasons. But also, you know, there's a 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.680 lot of political stuff involved with this um with these murders, 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:51.080 and it was something that Atlanta wanted to forget about. 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.880 So within the investigation, you know, we um uncovered some 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.359 of that stuff and just had a better understanding ourselves 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:58.960 of why you know, I was hearing about it, but 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.320 we took it upon our I'll just say, look, if 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.680 you've never heard about this, it's important and you should 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:05.560 know about it. So we want to just tell that 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.000 story and read. The ultimate goal was, look if we 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.160 can bring the millennial generation who's never heard of it 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.800 and the black community who's familiar with it, but they're 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.600 not really um having maybe heard the entire story because 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.840 there's been so much rumor and um, so many conspiracy 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.680 theories throughout the years, which happens when you don't have, 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.640 you know, a platform to tell to speak truth from. 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:28.440 So I wanted to bring these two groups in the 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.920 middle somewhere to meet and just have a conversation about race, 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.040 about um, you know, the criminal justice system. And I 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.680 think that's what we've been able to do. Yeah, I 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.800 was just gonna say, Um, there was a little bit 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.800 of the perception early on was I don't know. We 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:46.720 we got a lot of comments from people that say, oh, 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.280 there's no way that Pain couldn't have heard of this case. No, No, 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.280 he's just making he's just he's making that up for 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.640 a story. And I gotta tell you, Um, the two 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.080 crowds of people that have actually given us tons of feedback, 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.040 one has been the people that were alive at the time, 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.320 and they remembered it, but they didn't really remember it 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:08.760 when psychics and all this crazy stuff happened. And then 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.640 literally a whole generation of people that says, wait, so 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.640 twenty eight African American kids were killed and I never 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.160 knew about this, And I think, you know, pain is 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.960 a lot like our audience in terms of like, how 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.480 could such a big tragedy happen? And there never kind 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:27.480 of be a big stage to tell this like some 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.760 of the other serial killers, um in our history of America. 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.319 And that was kind of a surprise for us. Yeah, 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.160 I found out pretty quickly the born eight seven there 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:37.960 was a lot of people like me, I just turned 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.439 thirty this year that had never heard of this at all, 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:44.200 and um, you know, it's such a big tragedy that 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.800 affected not only the city of Atlanta but just the 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.079 whole nation that I found it interesting that there was 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.560 others out there like myself who had never heard of it. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:53.760 And that was one of the reasons that I chose 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.160 to to continue researching this story and to make it 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:01.320 into a podcast, and not only researching, by creating and 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.120 producing it up to the very last minute before published. 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:10.040 So how many people here are caught up? And are 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.280 you all waiting to go home tonight for the drop 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.360 of the final episode. Well, we have a surprise for 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:20.840 you because we have a preview clip of the final episode. 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.480 We do. I'm kidding, we do, we do. Pay do 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:27.520 you mind just setting it up for us? So this 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.439 is um Dale Russell. It's actually a preview for tonight's episode. 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.880 There's one episode next week which will be ten, which 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.520 is the finale. So it's a nice episode, episode nine. 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.719 It's called the Trial, and this is Dale Russell. He's 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.559 a Fox five Atlanta reporter and he's talking about during 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.720 the trial when Wayne blew up on the stand and 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.760 it kind of changed the trajectory of why or just 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:52.040 how he's How he was convicted in the first place 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.520 is one of the major points. So this is him 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:59.280 talking about it. They had a breaking They had to 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:03.600 show the jury a different sign of Wayne Williams. They 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:08.320 hand to let the jury see that this unassuming guy 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.480 sitting in front of them had this other sign to 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:16.360 his personality, and they got it. Wayne Williams was not 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.439 the mild Mannard witness we saw the last two days. 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.320 He was irritable, arrogant assistant d A. Jack Mallard had 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.000 him right where he wanted him. He finally broke, and 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.720 he snapped at the prosecutor. He called FBI agents goons, 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.840 didn't answer some of the prosecutor's questions and said his 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.920 own defense attorney Mary Welcome, forced him to give an 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.960 interview for money. You want the real Wayne Williams. When 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:45.400 you got him right here as an observer, he was electric. Mallard, 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.640 Mr Williams, you've been eating up all this worldwide publicity, 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.440 haven't you, Williams, No, I haven't. I'm tired of sitting here. 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.120 You're telling these folks I fit the profile, Mallard. Wasn't 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:59.839 these murders your center stage? Williams, you must be a 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:04.840 cool I distinctly remember writing down I've got it here 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.560 for you, looking up at somebody I don't remember who, 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.400 making eye contact and looking at the edge O. They 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:16.120 were like, oh my gosh, here we go, Here we go. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.359 So I think a lot of people are wondering about 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.640 that first conversation. How can you talk to us, like 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.280 how that unfolded with Wayne? With Wayne, how you felt 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:31.520 about that? Um, it was weird to be honest, Um, 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:33.480 it was I think you were in the room, and 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.319 you were in the room and I was like be quiet, 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.320 like one of those things. Um, And I didn't know 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.240 what to expect. I was being introduced by Dwayne. Not 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.640 to be confused with Wayne and or me pain yes, 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.880 but um yeah, I was. I just thought it was 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:52.080 super weird. But um, he was very nice and he 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.800 was charismatic, and he was easy to I would say, 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.360 talk to you, but listen to at least. Um. It 0:11:58.440 --> 0:11:59.800 was hard for me to kind of reel in and 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.120 it's sort of give any direction to the conversation like 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.680 I usually do in an interview or something. But UM, yeah, 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.719 I just found it very interesting. And it's really it's 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.280 been the same since then. It has not wavered at all. 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.600 He's He's the same the whole time, which is also 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.480 very interesting. So you've never seen that side of him, 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.559 the getting really agitated, And I haven't know, And I'm 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:26.040 just curious, um, in terms of you are you're actively 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:30.160 producing the show, as you're talking to him, as people 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.400 are reaching out to you, how do you balance that 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.319 kind of following where their story is going, but also 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.520 needing to lead it and push it it is UM 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.600 extremely difficult to say the least, actually believe it or not. 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.079 This is how difficult it is. On the way here, 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:47.600 I was listening to episode nine on my phone in 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.839 the elevator to get here, to make sure that there 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.000 was no mistakes in it. UM. And like that clip 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.280 you heard this morning, I made that this morning actually 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.160 in Atlanta. So like, this is not how you should 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.800 do your podcast at all. Please don't do this to yourself. 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.680 I agree with that, but if you do, call me, 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.719 I'll try to help you out. But seriously, it's UM. 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.520 It's crazy because it opens the door to so many 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.200 things because you know, a lot of the findings we 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:16.840 have and some revelations coming in episode nine and ten 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:21.520 have been because the podcast got so big and allowed 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.840 for us to find new things, new information, new people. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.079 So in a lot of ways, it's very helpful. But 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:30.640 you still have to build a story arc and and 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.559 map it all out, and there's so many little technical 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.840 things that make a podcast good and you still have 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:38.760 to do those things and they take a lot of time. 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.880 So doing that and talking to Wayne in real time 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.360 and going here and going there, it's it's very difficult. 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.280 You have time for nothing, else. Um, and I'm sure 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.720 that's a thank you to Meredith. You're yes, and if yes, 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:55.360 thank you Meredith for putting up with all that. I was, 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.920 I was, how many interviews? Like I look at the 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.640 dropbox and I see all these interviews, all these files, 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:02.960 and I was I was trying to count how many 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:07.520 interviews with Wayne or clips? It's it's thirty forty maybe more. 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.040 What is it? I don't know. There was so many 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:11.840 folders in there that I just made a folder that 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:15.240 that's called stuff That's less important, and I started dumping 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:16.880 stuff in there that I was like, that's not important, 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:18.760 that's not because there was so many folders I couldn't 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:23.200 even find like one thing beca. It's probably as far 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.040 as Wayne goes, at least thirty plus calls in there, 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.000 and um, even some as recent as a few days ago. 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.680 So it's, uh, we're excited to kind of come to 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:34.360 a conclusion. I know a lot of people are during 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.240 what they're listening, They're like, what's the point, what are 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.240 you doing? Well, the first point was, you know, have 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.000 you heard this story before? Do you know all the 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.040 details to even care about how this could in the 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.400 first place. I think that we're there now obviously, and 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:48.960 so in episode nine, not to give too much away, 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.400 we kind of explore, well, why was Wayne convicted in 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.400 the first place? He was? So, what are those bad 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.840 parts of Wayne William's true or not? What convinced the 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.800 jury that he was get t And then from there 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.600 we kind of end up in this new place for 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.000 the first time, and we concluded an episode ten. I 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.360 want to give too much away, but that's where we are. 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:11.160 I think this room really wants you to give too 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.560 much away what we want? Well, what do you mean 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:18.720 maybe after the microphones turn off? Um? So, I think 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.840 what what is so wonderful is to see how many 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.320 people are listening, how many people you have now exposed 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.120 to this story. How did you think about the audience 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.000 that you were trying to reach and how did that 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.360 guide the decisions you made and either the production or 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:40.760 how you released it. I think the production. Um, you know, 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.600 there's there's different sides of this, you know, and such 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.600 a polarizing case. Everyone picks aside and they stick to it. 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.160 He's guilty of everything, or he's innocent, he did nothing wrong, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:51.720 and you've got to find out how do you find 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.800 an audience within there that's willing to even hear this 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.920 story from a neutral perspective, and you know, we get 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:58.640 a couple of different things. I mean, I think pain 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.640 being the host as someone who didn't experience it growing 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.640 up as someone who's a different race than the killer 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.680 and the the convicted killer and the victims automatically opens 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.400 it up. So it's bigger than just a black story, 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:15.240 because I think it's important that everyone knows the story, 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.920 not just one race or another. It's it's the tragedy 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.680 that you know needs to be exposed so and itself. 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:22.920 How we were able to do it, I think UM 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.960 brought in a more broad audience and then even from 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.760 a from a marketing perspective, UM you know, we wanted 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.680 to reach people who weren't traditional podcast listeners. You know, 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.960 we did billboards in Atlanta, we did trailers, you know, 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:40.360 visual trailers before we ran UM TV commercials of that 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.640 trailer on TV one, just targeting a you know, forty 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.040 and up urban audience. So you know, we had to 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.320 identify who we wanted to listen to this and it 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:50.960 was you know, we kind of knew what that was, 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:52.600 but we knew we had to figure out how to 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:54.120 actually go get them. So we you know, we did 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.400 some things that most people don't do when when in 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:58.920 podcast promotion. So I think I think it worked and 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.360 I think it left an impression in Atlanta. We knew 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.520 that the people in Atlanta have heard this story, but they, 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.520 you know, were intrigued in too interested in it. So 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.639 the billboard just had the mug shot that if you 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.080 were around, you remembered that mug shot, and that's what 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.080 the cover is. So when when that was upon billboards, 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:17.920 so many people have come to me and said, oh, yeah, 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:20.920 I saw this on Spring Street or on Ponce and 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.560 it intrigued them to usually hadn't listened, it was on 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.480 their mind to go and listen. And those and those 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.280 billboards were right in the same parts where actually a 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.440 lot of these kids were found. Um where we're in 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.640 in the Atlanta where in midtown Atlanta, um and kind 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.560 of in a what two to five mile radius is 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.880 where most of those kids first started disappearing. And it's 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.200 it's very humbling when you hear a clip about someone 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.040 who called into a pastor. I think it was episode 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.720 or episode episode two or three, and I'm talking about 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.040 Ponce daileone Avenue We're like, that's our address. The guy 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.119 was down the street at a bar when he called, 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.320 and it's just it really brings it home. UM. I 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:04.680 love what Donald said about bringing in new listeners. Um. 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.280 Every part of what we did we wanted to kind 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.320 of do something big and different. So it wasn't just 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:13.040 the story. It was we actually hired an actor and 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.880 shot some scenes. We did, uh throwing a um what's 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.960 his name? What was the name of the body, rescue Randy, 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:24.240 rescue Randy over the bridge, and just trying to kind of, um, 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.479 just do things differently. We dropped four audio trailers or 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:32.600 teasers before to build up interest, so kind of UM, 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:34.640 build that buzz, and I think it actually drove people 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:36.960 nuts because they couldn't stand it anymore. And then UM 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.919 and four video video trailers that would play out in 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.560 different mediums and kind of educate people. And if they 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.720 saw it, they would say, wait, what what was that? 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.919 Like There's shots of UM pulling kids out of a 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.600 river and a little boy that's scared of going outside 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.080 at night, and it just it instantly makes you think, 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:57.840 I don't know what this is, but I have to 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.199 listen to this right now. And so UM that was 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.320 a combination of having audio teams, video teams, archives, the 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.960 whole thing to tell a big story. And and that's 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.240 just going big. Yeah. A lot of people thought it 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.720 was a you know, television series or something because it 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.280 was high quality of visuals and re enactments that we use. 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.440 And when you see it on TV or you see 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.600 it on the internet and it looks like it looks good, 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:21.200 we don't want them to think of it as a podcast. 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:22.639 So I don't know what that is or you know, 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:24.880 I don't listen to podcasts. We want to be good 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.639 enough to where you'll go anywhere to find it. And 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.639 I think, you know, um, I think we did. We 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:32.440 did that, and I think it's still growing and kind 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.320 of we want to just set the bar for like 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:39.800 how you promote important projects and podcasts. They're they're growing there. 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.840 You know, they're big and they should be treated as such, 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:44.679 you know what I mean with the marketing and you know, 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:48.359 just a little more innovation from the promotions and marketing side. 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.800 Now you mentioned archives. Jason and I have a shared 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:56.760 love of American history and primary source materials. Um, I'd 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.440 love for you to talk about how much that influenced 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.400 the story and I think a big thank you has 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.359 to go out to the archivists who kept all this 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.480 material for you to then dig through. It is Jason's 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:14.520 expertise here, it's it's it's interesting backstory. So, um, the 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.679 University of Georgia has been holding onto ws TVs video archives. 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:20.960 It's down in a vault in a basement in University 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.200 of Georgia, which is what about an hour or so 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:28.040 outside of Atlanta and Athens, Georgia. And uh, they've just 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:32.240 had all these original they were video clips and they 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.000 have a series of researchers and archivists that we're waiting 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.320 one day for someone to show up and want to 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.919 tap into this and it was us, And um, I 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.040 just I think it adds again that layer to the 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:48.199 story that is interesting. It also it's jarring when you 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:54.240 hear um people talking about so and so identified themselves 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.320 as a homosexual and and it's just not the way 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:00.360 we talk anymore. And this was this wasn't kind of 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:02.680 you know, Joe, average person on the street. This is 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:06.000 actually the news media reporting on these things. And it's 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:11.120 just I think hearing stories told differently, um using that 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.439 that archive material, but also to kind of move the 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.280 story forward in an emotional way. I think it's really interesting, 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.000 but pain can speak to this. We didn't just want 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.240 this to be a history lesson or a History channel 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.399 type experience. It needed to go deeper than that, and 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:31.720 so the the archive footage was always meant to help 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.520 move the story forward, but not be the story itself. 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:38.879 You think. One just interesting tidbit about the archives that 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.920 you guys might find interesting is that, like each clip 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.280 you hear is thirty seconds or sixty seconds of a 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:49.800 clip that's like an hour long, and then there's literally 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.520 several thousand clips. And so they went through and tagged 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.040 all the clips by name and number with time codes 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.159 and kind of described what was being talked about. But 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:03.840 so in between there you have all this other bizarre 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.800 stuff from the eighties and it's actually some of its hilarious, 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.840 just actually looking back and seeing just society in nineteen age. Yes, yes, 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.959 bizarre things from the eighties, so that now we just 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:16.440 have to talk about it. We weren't going to talk 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:18.280 about it, but now we have to talk about it. 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:23.720 Jason's US Weekly Magazine another obsession. I'm a history major, 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:25.639 so I get into this stuff. I mean, and I 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.840 talked about this on our special episode called The Vault, 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:33.240 which is the fact that um Wayne was just all 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:35.600 over the media and kind of attached to this, and 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:37.840 he did an interview with US Weekly with just kind 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:43.280 of this salacious um dramatic magazine. And I got obsessed 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:46.480 trying to find this, and so I searched the internet. 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:49.439 It wasn't anywhere. I found it on eBay, ordered it 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:52.560 and got kind of to pristine copies of the two editions, 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.119 and there was and it was kind of positioned next 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:59.480 to old cigarette ads and liquor ads and and kind 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.040 of all the stuff, and I just I still, I 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:03.640 look at it and I can't get my can't get 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:05.840 my arms around it and understand it. But it is 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:08.320 another crazy layer to this case, for sure. And I 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:10.320 borrowed it from you and you text me was like 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:13.240 do you still have the magazine? I was like, yeah, still, okay, 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:15.600 could you bring it to me when you're done. It's like, yeah, sure, 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:19.120 that's fine, So full disclosure. I asked Jason to bring 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.439 it today. I think he was afraid to have it 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:24.359 leave his office. It's it's probably on his desk in 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:29.600 a case. You brought it in your pocket so actually 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:33.600 what that what that brings us to is how how 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:35.840 are you balancing then the first person because I think 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:38.439 to your point, Jason, you didn't want this to feel 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:41.679 like a history lesson and you really went out and 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:45.399 drove around the neighborhoods where this, where this happened. How 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:48.040 did you balance those two of the archival and then 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.080 um first person interviews? Well, to me that the history 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.440 element of this is actually the most important part of it. 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.800 But me as a listener thinking objectively about this project, 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:03.200 that would be boring to me. And so I wanted 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:07.680 to bring new information and mesh the two together and 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:12.240 tell a different story than just me playing archive clips 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:16.320 for you and playing interviews of people just recounting what 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:20.640 happened one time. UM, I wanted to bring in new information, 0:24:20.720 --> 0:24:24.679 explore theories, but also stay true to the archives and 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:28.440 everything else and all the racial bar bifurcations that are 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:32.840 just so prevalent in the story and UM, just tell 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:34.719 it the right way. And to me, that was sticking 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:37.720 true to the history of it, because the history is important, 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:42.119 but also bringing new information to the table. And what 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:45.000 did you feel like you UM wanted to tell so 0:24:45.040 --> 0:24:46.919 far that you haven't been able to because you have 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:50.240 done some of the extra episodes where you've delved into 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:52.960 the side stories. Is there anyone, any story is still 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:56.600 nagging at you? Um, it's it's hard to say. I mean, 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:59.240 there's this story is so complex and there's so much 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.200 you could tell. You could make a hundred podcasts on this, 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:07.399 but UM, to me, the biggest thing and it's I 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:10.640 want to just tell people so badly like what I'm 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:14.240 thinking sometimes, but this is not really the place to 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:17.440 do that. Um. There's also what I sayings too, were 0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:20.760 just listen to the end, you know, listen one through 0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:23.720 ten and then come talk to me. And so like 0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:26.120 week by week, I'm like, just you just don't know 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:28.760 what you don't know yet. So like that kind of 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:34.160 stuff is, why isn't he talking about this? Lane's got him? Yeah, exactly. 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:37.399 Stuff like that. We also can't really say, like from 0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:39.879 tell people what we think or Pain can't just weighing 0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:42.720 on an opinion because the next week he might feel differently. 0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:46.480 And we've changed positions on this thing several times. And 0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:49.680 we have a conversation, you know, internally with our production 0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:52.520 staff with Pain, and from week to week, you know, 0:25:52.560 --> 0:25:55.560 we we might feel feel differently. So it's important that 0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:57.840 even for us that you know, we're waiting to the 0:25:57.960 --> 0:26:00.560 end and we say, Okay, we've digested all this, we 0:26:00.600 --> 0:26:02.480 know you know what was left out, we know what 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:05.000 we've covered in the podcast, and you know, how do 0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:07.840 we feel about this? And but yeah, you have to 0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:10.240 wait till the end to really form an opinion. Yeah. 0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:13.280 And part of that too is, UM, I think I'm 0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:17.879 not spoiling anything when I say, um, we you know, 0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:20.439 pain is not saying this is how I feel and 0:26:20.480 --> 0:26:22.719 this is how you should feel. Part of this is 0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:25.400 all of us should be listening to this and going 0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:28.879 through a lot of those same emotions and maybe thinking, well, 0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:32.920 you know, um, what is my bias? And why am 0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:35.320 I thinking this? Is it because I'm white? Is it 0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:37.600 because I'm black? Is it because I grew up in Atlanta? 0:26:37.640 --> 0:26:41.800 Is it because um I was um of of age 0:26:41.800 --> 0:26:43.679 at the time and I remember that, or maybe I 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:47.640 don't know anything about it, and and I think, um, 0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:48.960 you know, one of the things that we want to 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.240 leave with um anyone that's listened is how do I 0:26:52.320 --> 0:26:54.879 make up my own mind? But why am I making 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:58.280 my mind up in a certain way? What is my bias. 0:26:58.400 --> 0:27:01.080 What have I collected here? And you may not have 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:04.159 a clear answer, And and that's okay too. Yeah, I 0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:07.119 think that's great as a as a listener, it's it's 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:09.560 almost a relief to hear you say this, because I 0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:12.639 certainly from week over a week would feel one way 0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:15.159 and then listen to the next episode and feel the 0:27:15.200 --> 0:27:18.240 other way. And sometimes would hear Wayne and as he's 0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:22.200 going down kind of his pathways, of the conversations you're 0:27:22.200 --> 0:27:25.439 having with him, just even in that moment listening to 0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:28.320 him would change my my perception of him. But you 0:27:28.359 --> 0:27:31.119 can't forget either. I can't tell you how to feel 0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:34.000 about something. And a lot of the way I presented 0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:37.720 this was you tell me what you think about Episode five, 0:27:38.000 --> 0:27:40.760 Wayne's World. Wayne talking to me. I'm not gonna tell 0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:43.399 what I think. You tell me what you think. You know, 0:27:43.640 --> 0:27:45.600 I'm gonna put it out there. I'm not gonna influence 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:48.320 you at all. I'm gonna make sure it's all there 0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:52.000 and the important parts are highlighted. But that's kind of 0:27:52.080 --> 0:27:54.560 what this is in a lot of ways, is what 0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:58.000 did you get from this? And you'll see very quickly 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:00.720 this is why it's so complicated, so why people still 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:03.280 talk about this. I definitely think that's why it's so 0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:06.439 compelling as a listen because you you do have to 0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:10.199 think through that, and you're pushing us as listeners to 0:28:10.320 --> 0:28:12.840 get to that point. Um. I know that you've got 0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:16.359 in some some heat for saying you're not a podcaster, um, 0:28:16.400 --> 0:28:18.639 but I'd love to hear you kind of talk about 0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:21.280 that and how that impacts your storytelling. What does that 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:23.840 mean to you? And is it this being able to 0:28:23.880 --> 0:28:26.280 say I'm just gonna put something out there and let 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:29.240 the audience react as they see fit. Yeah, I said 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:31.479 I'm not a podcaster one time, and people got mad 0:28:31.520 --> 0:28:36.480 about that. But what I actually meant, if you heard, um, 0:28:37.040 --> 0:28:40.840 was it podcast movement? The little thing I said, basically 0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:43.720 it was, is that I was scared to make podcasts 0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:46.920 before I made a podcast because I didn't think that 0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:50.000 I fit in and I still don't fit in that well. 0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:53.680 But it turns out that doesn't matter, actually, And that 0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:56.760 was the whole point. It's not that I don't like podcasters. 0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:58.560 If I didn't like podcasters and me and Jason went 0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:02.959 me friends, but like, seriously, it's to me, it's just 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:05.720 the whole labeling of things people you know have a 0:29:05.760 --> 0:29:07.760 problem with like when you're doing a podcast, well, what 0:29:07.800 --> 0:29:10.240 are you? You filmmaker? You have made a film. It's like, 0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:12.520 why do I have to be labeled something? And I 0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:15.560 kind of just like tell stories and do stuff in 0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:18.920 two years if I'm doing something wildly different, am I 0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:20.960 still what I am today? Or am I just the 0:29:21.000 --> 0:29:24.080 same person? I'm just growing. So I just don't like 0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:28.600 the label thing very much. And the podcast label really, 0:29:28.960 --> 0:29:32.320 in all, honestly almost deterred me from making a podcast. 0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:34.560 I did not think that I I fit in. I 0:29:34.640 --> 0:29:37.200 just that was not my thing. So why would I 0:29:37.240 --> 0:29:39.720 be good at that? Why would people listen to that? 0:29:40.240 --> 0:29:42.840 And really, like, genuinely I almost didn't do it because 0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:45.200 of just that and not look back like, wow, that 0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:47.240 would have been really stupid if that's why I didn't 0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:50.240 do it. So I just choose to tell that story 0:29:50.240 --> 0:29:52.840 that way. So yeah, I'm still on a podcast. When 0:29:52.880 --> 0:29:56.560 people ask and I alsot it's steams from up and 0:29:56.640 --> 0:29:59.840 vantaged episode one where you know, we kind of just 0:30:00.320 --> 0:30:03.880 disarmed the listener by saying, look, I'm I'm paint Lendsy. 0:30:03.920 --> 0:30:07.600 I'm doing this podcast, but beware, I'm not a podcaster. 0:30:07.680 --> 0:30:10.120 I'm not a journalist, I'm not an attorney. I'm just 0:30:10.160 --> 0:30:12.760 really not qualified to be doing this. So, you know 0:30:12.800 --> 0:30:15.840 what a judgment too hard And that's where you know, 0:30:15.880 --> 0:30:19.520 that's what sparked it. So, I mean, it wasn't made 0:30:19.520 --> 0:30:23.240 a statement. It was like to the podcast world. It 0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:26.120 was to the five thousand listeners of Up and Vantished 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:29.600 Episode one, and it just became, you know, it just 0:30:30.120 --> 0:30:32.760 steamrolled in this bigger thing. And to be honest, you 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:35.040 know when we first, you know, we we know each 0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:38.840 other through the music industry, and um, we're both burnt 0:30:38.880 --> 0:30:41.440 out of you know, being in the music industry and 0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:43.720 just the monotony of you know, what we're doing, and 0:30:44.200 --> 0:30:45.400 you know, pain and say look I want to do 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:47.560 something on the TV and film space. I said, look, 0:30:47.600 --> 0:30:48.920 I'm I'm down. Let me know what I can do 0:30:48.960 --> 0:30:52.320 to hell. So Up and Vanished The Disappearance of Terry 0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:55.560 Grinstead was supposed to be a documentary, and then when 0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:58.040 we realized that it costs too much money for us 0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:00.840 to to do a documentary by ourselves, he decided, let's 0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:03.440 make this a podcast and stay. So the entire idea 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:06.480 of us getting into a new field and doing some 0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:10.360 storytelling was about film and TV, not about podcasting. So 0:31:10.400 --> 0:31:13.080 I think that's another, you know, the reason why he 0:31:13.120 --> 0:31:16.200 described himself that way. And I think this comes back 0:31:16.200 --> 0:31:18.880 to Jason. You're saying just looking for the big stories 0:31:19.360 --> 0:31:21.920 and really being able to jump into those and and 0:31:21.960 --> 0:31:24.880 tell those and whatever medium it is. Yeah, I was 0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:27.120 saying this yesterday on the panel, Um that it was 0:31:27.160 --> 0:31:29.800 a part of I think I got this right. But 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:33.200 I think it's been forty three days since Cyrial launched. 0:31:33.960 --> 0:31:36.440 You've been counting every day or I did my homework 0:31:36.480 --> 0:31:39.400 before I came here. Um, it's on the desk with 0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:46.880 the US week and uh, I mean total props to 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:49.560 that show. Um, it continues to be in the top 0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:52.440 twenty or top thirty on Apple podcasts every single week. 0:31:52.960 --> 0:31:55.120 And so when you look at this in a positive way, 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:57.959 you'd say, you know, while that really is the starter 0:31:58.120 --> 0:32:00.520 kit for anyone that is new to pot cast, this 0:32:00.640 --> 0:32:03.480 is I think everyone's gone through that right. Oh my gosh, Serriel, 0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:06.000 you have to listen to serial now. It's Cereal and 0:32:06.160 --> 0:32:09.240 s Town and and I think that's been great to 0:32:09.560 --> 0:32:12.560 kind of get people in the door. But I think 0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:14.680 we need to tell bigger stories and kind of the 0:32:14.720 --> 0:32:18.600 idea around Atlanta Monster was how does Tenderfoot and House 0:32:18.640 --> 0:32:22.640 to Works kind of come together as as uh, cool 0:32:22.720 --> 0:32:27.120 credible storytellers with different expertises and different voices and different 0:32:27.160 --> 0:32:30.320 disciplines and and kind of elevate um in our own way, 0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:34.000 UM one story that might be bigger and and do 0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:37.479 things creatively. And we're starting to see more people kind 0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:39.960 of getting out there and and I look at the 0:32:40.000 --> 0:32:42.360 industry and I want to see more, and I think 0:32:42.920 --> 0:32:46.520 listeners do too. I think they're hungry for more, and 0:32:46.600 --> 0:32:49.800 we need to give them more. Um. That's why everyone's 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:52.640 talking about Atlanta Monster. Not I'm not trying to kind 0:32:52.640 --> 0:32:55.200 of say that we're awesome and we're promoting ourselves, but 0:32:55.240 --> 0:32:58.400 we I think we fed them something they really wanted. 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:02.240 I say, you're awesome, what's up? Thank you? That's nice. 0:33:02.760 --> 0:33:05.720 So I'm actually hearing um. A lot of people say 0:33:05.760 --> 0:33:08.680 that Up and Vanished has now been their first podcast 0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:11.800 that they hear about a podcast. And I feel like 0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:14.760 for a lot of people, Cereal was that that starter kit. 0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:16.920 But now I'm hearing Up and Vanished. How do you 0:33:16.960 --> 0:33:19.920 feel about that? That's pretty cool because Cereal is why 0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:22.600 I made a podcast, basically because I would not have 0:33:22.720 --> 0:33:25.520 known what podcasting was if my friend didn't say, hey, 0:33:25.680 --> 0:33:27.720 I ever heard of Cereal? I was like, no, what's that? 0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:29.760 And then I started listening to Cereal. And then so 0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:33.080 when I went to go make this uh up and 0:33:33.160 --> 0:33:37.040 Vantaged documentary which is gonna be a TV series, at first, um, 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:40.040 I was like, well I really liked Cereal. Someone to 0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:42.760 go look for other true kind podcasts to kind of 0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:45.040 see how it was made or what was out there, 0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:49.440 and I decided that I should make one. Don't Yeah, 0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:52.520 I mean, that's the biggest compliment to me is when 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:54.920 someone says, look, you you brought me into this new space. 0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:57.920 Never listened to a podcast before, because I hadn't listened 0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:01.040 to a podcast until Up and Vantage episode one. That's 0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:03.880 the first podcast I ever listened to. And then Pain 0:34:04.000 --> 0:34:09.120 was like, um, probably right about right, maybe a day 0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:14.680 before yeah, I mean probably yeah, yeah, but you know. 0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:16.600 And then the first thing Pain told me was, look, 0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:19.440 if we're gonna do this and do it right, go 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:22.240 you gotta go listen to Cereal. And so the second podcast, 0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:24.680 let's do with Cereal. And then when it started to 0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:27.000 blow up, we said, okay, look we now have a 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:29.840 podcast business. So then I listened to Startup, which was 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:32.120 a cheat sheet for how we're gonna start up our own, 0:34:32.200 --> 0:34:35.399 you know, podcasting company. So you know, this just goes 0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:38.120 to show you could have not not be a podcast listener. 0:34:38.520 --> 0:34:40.840 I never have made a podcast before. And you know, 0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:43.680 it's all about the storytelling and trying to tackle big 0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:45.520 stories and and just telling them in a way that's 0:34:45.560 --> 0:34:48.560 that's compelling to the listener. And I think you shouldn't 0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:52.560 shy away from controversial stories, you know, stories where you 0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:54.839 know they're gonna be polarizing to listener. You you have 0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:57.920 to really tell the big stories and and and it 0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:00.560 intreagues people and brings them in when they feel like 0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:03.839 this is something that I can't talk to everyone about. 0:35:03.880 --> 0:35:06.879 Guess what podcasting really is. It's you and you're earbuds. 0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:09.200 You know, it's a private experience, and you want to 0:35:09.239 --> 0:35:11.799 try to bring that out to the larger community, and 0:35:11.840 --> 0:35:14.279 people obsess over they want to talk to their friends 0:35:14.280 --> 0:35:15.839 about it. All right, you listen to up Advantage, You're 0:35:15.840 --> 0:35:17.680 listening to a lot of monsters, So that's what we 0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:20.040 want to hear that. You know, Hey, I never listened 0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:21.799 to this, but it was so good, and I heard 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:23.600 about it so much that I wanted to come into 0:35:23.600 --> 0:35:26.160 the podcast under the podcasting tent just to listen to 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:29.080 your podcast. So yeah, that's what I love about audio. 0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:32.320 It's it can go from being that really personal, intimate 0:35:32.360 --> 0:35:35.719 experience to them that very shared community. Exactly that when 0:35:35.760 --> 0:35:37.600 you find someone else that's listening to the show that 0:35:37.640 --> 0:35:40.239 you love, you just cannot wait to talk to them 0:35:40.320 --> 0:35:43.320 about it. How do you build that connection with your audience. 0:35:45.400 --> 0:35:49.480 It's it's hard to say exactly because I'm on the 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:52.480 other end of it. I don't have the same experience 0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:54.800 as you have. Sometimes I wish I had that experience 0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:57.560 with this show or whatever show I'm working on, because 0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:00.200 you know, you hear it so much. It's not they're 0:36:00.200 --> 0:36:02.799 the same anymore. All the material is just not the same. 0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:07.239 Um to me, it's like who in here makes a 0:36:07.280 --> 0:36:10.480 podcasts or wants to anyone in here trying to do that? Okay, 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:14.799 that's pretty good amount. When we say like good storytelling, 0:36:15.080 --> 0:36:19.520 do you even know we're talking about? I would be like, 0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:22.320 what are you talking about? Like you know what I mean? Um, 0:36:22.360 --> 0:36:25.879 I think that a good podcast, at least the kind 0:36:25.960 --> 0:36:30.240 that we've been making it's not just telling a good 0:36:30.360 --> 0:36:33.920 overall story, it's the very tiny little things the matter. 0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:37.880 It's like, for example, I'm taking the ums out of 0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:42.640 someone talking, just making the listening experience clean, and you 0:36:42.640 --> 0:36:44.839 begin you begin to depend on it, and you don't 0:36:44.880 --> 0:36:47.640 even know what those things actually are anymore. You might 0:36:47.760 --> 0:36:49.560 listen to another podcast like, I don't know, I don't 0:36:49.600 --> 0:36:51.560 like it as much, but I don't really know why. 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:55.799 It's those little things. So we're always focusing on those details. 0:36:56.200 --> 0:36:59.440 We're trying to make it sound good. We're we're also 0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:02.160 we're trying tell a big story and to tell it right, 0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:05.160 but we're also focusing just as much on making something 0:37:05.200 --> 0:37:07.040 sound good. So like, if you want to make your 0:37:07.040 --> 0:37:10.200 own podcast, you know, that's really what you should focus on. 0:37:10.239 --> 0:37:12.319 To be honest. If you have good content and you're 0:37:12.360 --> 0:37:15.680 trying your hardest and it sounds good, then it's gonna 0:37:15.680 --> 0:37:19.120 be good. People are gonna like it. Yeah, And I think, um, 0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:22.839 I love um the kind of backstory on the use 0:37:22.880 --> 0:37:25.719 of music in the in the podcast to um and 0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:29.800 that's highly underrated as a as a mechanism for for 0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:34.839 driving emotion and podcasts. And uh, I mean I love 0:37:34.880 --> 0:37:38.480 how this kind of got cranking. I got got cranking 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:42.560 as we as we. I want this eighties music throughout 0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:44.799 the whole thing. And I found this guy on Spotify. 0:37:44.920 --> 0:37:47.239 His name is Makeup and Vandy Set. It's just one guy. 0:37:47.800 --> 0:37:49.279 I thought it was this big group of people who 0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:52.440 know its just a guy in his laptop. He's awesome. Um. 0:37:52.480 --> 0:37:54.200 But I called him up also, like, hey, would you 0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:57.960 be interested in basically scoring this podcast? And he had 0:37:58.040 --> 0:38:00.279 never listened to a podcast either. Then he listened to 0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:02.960 Up and Up and Vanished and was like, I totally 0:38:03.000 --> 0:38:06.400 get it now, and he just progressed as every episode 0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:09.719 has gone by making amazing music. To me, I like that. 0:38:09.880 --> 0:38:13.239 I like being submerged in a sequence and just sort 0:38:13.280 --> 0:38:15.239 of being there in the moment. Some people don't like 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:17.480 the music. I kind of like it, so that's why 0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:19.719 you always hear it that way. But you know, make 0:38:19.880 --> 0:38:23.000 what you like and just making your best that's pretty 0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:25.160 much it. How much of that is an influence from 0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:29.200 your music background, I don't know. I think it's just 0:38:29.280 --> 0:38:32.560 kind of to me. I always sort of thought podcasts 0:38:32.600 --> 0:38:35.319 were kind of boring. Um. I didn't really listen to 0:38:35.320 --> 0:38:37.200 talk radio that much, so I didn't really kind of 0:38:37.640 --> 0:38:41.560 get into that. So when I first made up and vanished, 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:43.960 I was trying to make something that I thought was compelling, 0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:46.279 what would suck me in, And so I had this 0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:48.360 sort of these music beds in the background and just 0:38:48.400 --> 0:38:51.560 sort of setting the scene and making this tone that 0:38:51.640 --> 0:38:54.319 really grabs you. So it comes from that really, to 0:38:54.360 --> 0:39:00.000 be honest, yeah, I'd agree. I mean, paintings, music, background 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:02.600 goes it goes back a long way. So he understands, 0:39:02.680 --> 0:39:06.960 you know, production, He understands the timing, even when it 0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:09.839 comes to how interviews are edited, and you know how 0:39:10.320 --> 0:39:13.120 that one second pause or you know, those things make 0:39:13.120 --> 0:39:15.080 a big difference. Things are huge. Yeah, So if you 0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:17.480 don't know why you like one one podcast more than 0:39:17.520 --> 0:39:19.880 another has a lot to do with the editing, the production. 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:22.520 I think also, you know, the music, like we talked about, 0:39:22.520 --> 0:39:26.360 but I think the relatability of the host plays a 0:39:26.440 --> 0:39:29.520 huge part in it, because you could listen to a 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:33.160 really great story or you know, interesting story, but the 0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:38.360 person who's delivering that story is just the language they speak, 0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:42.440 isn't the language that you're understanding how they phrase things. 0:39:43.160 --> 0:39:46.600 I feel like when I started listening to podcasts and 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:49.399 I felt like, is the host just trying to show 0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:52.319 me how smart they are by the way they're trying 0:39:52.360 --> 0:39:54.400 to tell the story. I just want to hear a 0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:56.080 good story. It doesn't have to be told from the 0:39:56.120 --> 0:40:00.239 perspective or from you know you. You spent you know, 0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:03.440 days and weeks writing this one part to see let 0:40:03.719 --> 0:40:06.200 me let me, you know, go in the saurus and 0:40:06.239 --> 0:40:08.160 figure out a better word to say here that makes 0:40:08.200 --> 0:40:10.520 me sound even smarter. It's like, just just tell me 0:40:10.560 --> 0:40:13.480 your story so I can relate to it. And and 0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:15.719 those are the things that you know, you like, why 0:40:15.719 --> 0:40:17.799 do I like this and not that one? Both could 0:40:17.840 --> 0:40:19.799 be good stories, but how is it relating to you? 0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:23.120 With pain, he's he's like the audience when it comes 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:24.920 to like, oh, I might go and knock on the 0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:28.000 door just like that. But the journalists or the attorney 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:30.040 might not take that approach. They might say, oh, that's 0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:32.680 that's not the way we would do it by the book. 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:35.080 But pain is like, Okay, let me call this guy up, 0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:38.239 let me recordious call you know, so as things that 0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:40.279 we would just all do as a listener if we 0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:42.200 were hosting our own podcast. I think that's a huge 0:40:42.200 --> 0:40:43.759 part of it. So you're saying that I should buy 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:47.880 a thesaurus. Basically, yeah, definitely got it. I was just 0:40:47.920 --> 0:40:51.160 gonna say, there's there's a clip at the beginning I 0:40:51.200 --> 0:40:54.920 think is it episode five, and it's a really frustrating 0:40:55.360 --> 0:41:00.360 to three minute um interlude of all the things you 0:41:00.400 --> 0:41:03.680 had to go through to actually connect with Wayne on 0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:05.839 the call. And you know, some people are like, oh, 0:41:05.880 --> 0:41:12.560 how could you do that? That is yeah, you're like, okay, 0:41:12.600 --> 0:41:15.560 well it's a little long, but you're like, I knew that. 0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:18.200 But actually, to be honest, the whole thing took about 0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:21.200 fifteen minutes. And that was about two and a half minutes. 0:41:21.719 --> 0:41:23.319 I kept treating a DOWNSA, this is a little too long. 0:41:23.360 --> 0:41:26.280 About wanted you to be like, good greed, this is ridiculous. 0:41:26.320 --> 0:41:28.759 You'll hear that confirmation number. I was like, this is 0:41:28.800 --> 0:41:31.000 that is That's the longest number I've ever been read. 0:41:31.160 --> 0:41:33.160 Someone has to hear this. It reminded me of the 0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:35.640 old dial up days when you're waiting for the modem. 0:41:36.800 --> 0:41:39.640 Exactly this is what you have to do. I thought 0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:41.520 I was intriguing. I was like, this is what everyone 0:41:41.560 --> 0:41:45.200 does when they talk to someone in ja illness is insane. Yeah, 0:41:45.239 --> 0:41:47.640 and then I mean not to get too intellectual about it, 0:41:47.680 --> 0:41:52.600 but um, like, wow, the prison system and everything about 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:56.920 this bureaucratic nightmare is broken. Um, and look what you 0:41:56.960 --> 0:41:59.279 have to do to just talk to someone. And I 0:41:59.440 --> 0:42:01.960 just just putting it out there for people who observe 0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:05.000 and frankly get a little frustrated themselves as they listen to. 0:42:05.520 --> 0:42:07.640 That's the whole put you there, that's the whole point. 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:11.279 So you did go and knock on doors and show 0:42:11.400 --> 0:42:14.120 up at people's houses. How did you build the report 0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:17.160 to get them to talk to you? To be honest, 0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:19.359 I didn't really have one. I didn't think I did 0:42:19.480 --> 0:42:22.520 at least I just just called people and said, hey, 0:42:22.800 --> 0:42:25.680 you don't know me, I want to talk basically, But no, 0:42:25.840 --> 0:42:29.680 I mean, to be honest, it's a very tragic story. 0:42:29.719 --> 0:42:31.880 So depend on who you're talking to. You're always sensitive 0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:34.440 to who this person is and how they're related to 0:42:34.480 --> 0:42:37.200 this case and this story. You can't ever forget that. 0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:39.960 It's the most important part of this. So if you're 0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:43.120 always keeping that in mind, and you're trying to be 0:42:43.320 --> 0:42:46.400 a people person and just find a way to relate 0:42:46.440 --> 0:42:52.040 to somebody, then most of the time it works. Yeah. 0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:54.480 I mean, don't let your own voice get in the 0:42:54.480 --> 0:42:56.800 way of someone being able to tell you a story. 0:42:56.800 --> 0:42:59.279 And I think especially if you if you listen to 0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:02.600 episode one, I think you're barely in that episode, and 0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:06.160 it's it's because that was intentional. Yeah, I mean, it's 0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:09.440 it's I've seen some press on this where yes, we 0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:12.200 talked to FBI agents and a p D officers and 0:43:12.360 --> 0:43:16.440 television anchors, but actually just talking and of course um 0:43:16.480 --> 0:43:20.840 you know, um families, um, of the victims and such, 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:23.440 but also just people who grow up at that time 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:26.320 and listening to those people. I think it's just super important, 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:28.560 and it's just you know, hey, I grew up in 0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:31.239 this neighborhood and this is how I felt and then. 0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:33.600 And they don't have to be anyone that is of 0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:36.680 a high position in the city or or we're involved 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:38.360 in the case. We just want to know how you feel. 0:43:38.760 --> 0:43:41.799 That's super important to just listen every single interview. You 0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:45.520 hear every single one. Meredith and I are both there 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:48.880 in person for every single one of them, and I 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:52.960 often intentionally just remove myself from it. So this person 0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:57.200 is telling their story, it's not my story, and I 0:43:57.280 --> 0:44:00.800 just think it sounds better that way. It's more natural. Um, 0:44:00.840 --> 0:44:02.759 you know, I'm not trying to be a part of 0:44:02.800 --> 0:44:05.960 the conversation with them. I don't know anything about what 0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:08.000 they're telling me. You know, I'm hearing it for the 0:44:08.000 --> 0:44:09.960 first time, like you guys are as they're telling me. 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:12.480 So I'm not trying to, you know, broadcast a conversation 0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:15.400 with somebody. I'm trying to ask the right questions so 0:44:15.520 --> 0:44:18.400 they can kind of take the stage themselves. And then 0:44:18.400 --> 0:44:21.160 what's your process of putting it together? Because now you 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:23.759 were there for it, hearing it the first time, and 0:44:23.760 --> 0:44:26.239 then obviously when you're adding it, you're hearing it over 0:44:26.320 --> 0:44:28.400 and over again. How do you not get too close 0:44:28.440 --> 0:44:30.879 and actually kind of bring yourself back to that moment 0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:34.200 of hearing it for the first time. Um, as you're 0:44:34.239 --> 0:44:36.680 listening to it, as you do the interview, you kind 0:44:36.680 --> 0:44:39.279 of go, oh, yep, that's a that's pretty important, or 0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:42.239 that's a good part, or that's a really interesting lot 0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:44.759 line that has to go in there. So stuff like that. 0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:47.000 You kind of just trying to remember that or take notes. 0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:49.520 But then when it comes down to the interview, you 0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:51.399 have to kind of go back and forth. When you're 0:44:51.480 --> 0:44:55.440 editing from going from thinking super objectively and like broad 0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:58.719 about it and then being very hyper focused on one 0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:02.200 little thing about the way this actually sounds, not what 0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:05.160 the word means, but does this sound funky? Is this 0:45:05.280 --> 0:45:10.040 sound okay? And then you know, does this story chronologically 0:45:10.080 --> 0:45:13.640 makes sense? And then should I interject myself here and 0:45:13.880 --> 0:45:16.759 give a little further explanation on that or should I 0:45:16.840 --> 0:45:19.399 just you know, put this here so it makes sense 0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:21.319 to come right after that? And the goal for me 0:45:21.440 --> 0:45:25.239 is to the less narration that's needed, the better podcast 0:45:25.440 --> 0:45:28.680 edit it is. If it can go five minutes without 0:45:28.719 --> 0:45:31.120 me talking, that means that it all made enough sense 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:33.920 for you to sit back and hear people just talking 0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:36.920 and you know what's going on. I think that's pretty 0:45:37.440 --> 0:45:38.920 hard to do. So if you can do that, you're 0:45:38.920 --> 0:45:45.240 doing a pretty good job. Yeah you're great, Yes, okay, 0:45:45.280 --> 0:45:48.919 Donalds are great. That's good. Yeah, that's that's sauces right there, 0:45:48.960 --> 0:45:51.719 and the and the edit and in not getting in 0:45:51.760 --> 0:45:54.359 your own way. You know, the worst thing you can 0:45:54.360 --> 0:45:58.239 do is over talk if you're interviewing someone, because they 0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:00.279 could be about to say something great and then here 0:46:00.320 --> 0:46:03.319 you come bumbling all over the place and interjecting what 0:46:03.400 --> 0:46:05.040 you want them to say. Are trying to get to 0:46:05.040 --> 0:46:07.200 the point fashion than that they you know, than the 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:09.160 pace that they're going to get to it eventually. At 0:46:09.320 --> 0:46:11.959 so I think, yeah, just sitting back and letting people 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:14.879 talk and then you know, being able to pull those 0:46:14.920 --> 0:46:17.960 little things out, that's what You'll have a questions sometimes 0:46:18.000 --> 0:46:22.160 and I'll just sit there five seconds of like awkward 0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:27.080 silence with somebody and I'm just like, and they're like 0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:29.520 they always talk, so and they just start filling the 0:46:29.520 --> 0:46:32.160 air with something because they feel obligated to you know 0:46:32.200 --> 0:46:35.000 what I mean. It's like it felt weird to me 0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:37.480 at first, just kind of just you know someone's gonna 0:46:37.480 --> 0:46:39.600 eventually start of talking about Like it's not like a standoff. 0:46:39.640 --> 0:46:42.040 It's more like a you know, I'm not I'll just 0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:44.319 be waiting a little bit longer than someone else might 0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:46.680 be waiting, and then before I'm about to talk, they 0:46:46.680 --> 0:46:50.719 start talking. It's actually a great negotiation tactic, just so 0:46:50.800 --> 0:46:54.400 you know myself, you can save that for later, because 0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:56.560 it's not as easy as it sounds like. I do 0:46:56.680 --> 0:46:59.800 some like pre interviews where I'll just record a conversation 0:46:59.880 --> 0:47:01.839 with someone to see what are they gonna give us 0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:03.759 if if pain is gonna you know, talk to them 0:47:03.840 --> 0:47:06.680 or not so I try to hear kind of what 0:47:06.800 --> 0:47:10.480 they've done in their interviews and mimic that strategy. And 0:47:10.760 --> 0:47:12.600 it's really not easy because you get into it. You 0:47:12.640 --> 0:47:14.520 want them to tell you what's next. Want a conversational. 0:47:14.560 --> 0:47:16.320 You don't want to sit there and just not say anything. 0:47:16.360 --> 0:47:19.879 They're like, are you there are things? Okay? You want 0:47:19.920 --> 0:47:22.279 to be engaged enough and just find a little moments 0:47:22.320 --> 0:47:25.520 like yeah, just like be there with them in the conversation, 0:47:25.640 --> 0:47:29.120 but not talk over them or steer it too much. 0:47:30.000 --> 0:47:32.839 It just takes practice pretty much. And I was gonna say, 0:47:32.840 --> 0:47:36.960 you know, part of um um how stuff works and 0:47:37.080 --> 0:47:41.920 tenderfoot working together. I think our approach with creators is 0:47:43.040 --> 0:47:44.960 to kind of let them have the floor and let 0:47:45.040 --> 0:47:48.279 it let them do get their way and so um 0:47:48.640 --> 0:47:50.319 it gets a little hairy at the end as we're 0:47:50.360 --> 0:47:52.440 trying to put an episode to bed and all that stuff. 0:47:52.440 --> 0:47:56.759 And that's absolutely okay, um, But I just I don't, 0:47:57.120 --> 0:47:59.640 like I was talking about earlier about like there being 0:47:59.760 --> 0:48:02.399 a template for how you do a show. The last 0:48:02.440 --> 0:48:04.600 thing that we want to do is tell Pain and 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:06.880 Meredith and Donald like, this is the way you need 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:09.080 to do the show, because this is the way that 0:48:09.120 --> 0:48:11.000 House to Works has always done that show. And so 0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:14.440 it doesn't mean that we don't add, you know, certain 0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:20.560 riggers and discipline about production and research and kind of 0:48:20.560 --> 0:48:23.160 all that stuff. That's why we're working together. But I 0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:26.720 stand firm and saying like we need to let creators 0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:29.080 tell their story and every one of them can be 0:48:29.200 --> 0:48:32.680 completely different and have different personalities, and and that the 0:48:32.760 --> 0:48:35.040 whole thing, and that's the whole point is like really 0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:42.200 letting them run. So episode nine tonight, Episode ten, which 0:48:42.280 --> 0:48:47.439 is the final episode, how do you feel about it wrapping? Now? Wow, 0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:51.160 I need to go to the beach or something. Um. 0:48:51.280 --> 0:48:57.520 I feel it's been like the longest feeling ten weeks ever. Um, 0:48:57.760 --> 0:48:59.120 I don't even know how I feel about it. To 0:48:59.120 --> 0:49:02.160 be honest, I'm still will like in it right now, 0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:06.520 so I don't really even know. But um, I'm I'm 0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:10.000 happy that people have liked this podcast and have learned 0:49:10.000 --> 0:49:13.520 a lot. And um, I was pretty nervous about this 0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:16.160 project because I knew it was big, and I thought 0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:19.239 that it was another thing that it was just too 0:49:19.320 --> 0:49:21.120 big for me. I thought that maybe I'm not the 0:49:21.200 --> 0:49:23.319 right guy for this. You know, I actually thought those 0:49:23.360 --> 0:49:25.840 things before I did it. But UM, you know, I 0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:28.160 put a lot of effort into doing it the right 0:49:28.200 --> 0:49:30.040 way and I think in a lot of ways it 0:49:30.080 --> 0:49:32.960 paid off. So UM, you know, I'm I'm proud of it. 0:49:33.239 --> 0:49:36.360 I think that the team House of Works, Donald Meredith, 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:38.879 everyone in the House of Works did a great job. 0:49:39.640 --> 0:49:42.759 And UM, you know, I'm excited to see what comes next. 0:49:42.760 --> 0:49:46.480 I'm also excited to have a complete project out there 0:49:46.520 --> 0:49:49.160 one through tin and so you know, we can with 0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:52.400 every listener I meet, I can have a full conversation 0:49:52.440 --> 0:49:55.279 about the whole thing. That's great. Yeah, and now it's 0:49:55.320 --> 0:49:57.400 time to um actually talk to some of your listeners 0:49:57.440 --> 0:50:09.920 and open things that and a question in the back. Hi, 0:50:10.080 --> 0:50:14.359 my name is Amila from Tokyo. I don't know you said, uh, 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:19.800 it's just the story. But what percentage is funct and 0:50:19.960 --> 0:50:24.680 what percentage fish? And do you think and oh how 0:50:25.000 --> 0:50:35.080 do you uh making effort to uh uh two take 0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:41.560 a fucked mhm. Um. So All Up and Vanished and 0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:45.720 Atlanta Monster are both factual podcasts. I've never made anything 0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:48.640 up for stage anything or anything like that. UM, so 0:50:48.760 --> 0:50:52.759 all the stuff you're hearing is is legit and real. Um. 0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:57.960 I like to take these real life moments and build 0:50:58.000 --> 0:51:00.560 them up to give you the same link that I 0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:04.560 felt when when it was happening to me or anyone 0:51:04.600 --> 0:51:06.520 else on our team who was telling the story, or 0:51:06.600 --> 0:51:09.799 when we're going back in time to recreate a moment 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:14.120 that happens somewhere else. So, UM, you know, it's all 0:51:14.200 --> 0:51:17.800 factual stuff, and you know we're proud of that, and 0:51:18.160 --> 0:51:20.560 you know just what happens that with both podcasts. Now 0:51:20.600 --> 0:51:24.960 we've dug up some crazy stories and UM, we just 0:51:25.360 --> 0:51:27.840 choose to present them the way we do. So sometimes 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:30.640 you might think this that this isn't real, but it 0:51:30.800 --> 0:51:33.680 is so. And there's another point of that, which is, um, 0:51:34.160 --> 0:51:37.520 you know, oh my gosh, down the conspiracy rat, you know, 0:51:37.760 --> 0:51:41.200 rabbit hole here. I have to tell you that most 0:51:41.280 --> 0:51:43.279 of the stories that we are actually putting out there, 0:51:43.320 --> 0:51:45.600 and even some of the stories you haven't heard, they've 0:51:45.640 --> 0:51:48.560 been talked about for thirty or forty years and we're 0:51:48.600 --> 0:51:51.760 presenting them back to the listeners. So this is actually 0:51:52.280 --> 0:51:56.200 why this case continues to be so confusing and I think, 0:51:56.440 --> 0:52:01.120 um so divided is the fact that these theories, whether 0:52:01.200 --> 0:52:03.640 they were put out there by Wayne, whether other people 0:52:03.760 --> 0:52:07.000 in the kind of the connected universe of this case, 0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:10.480 the whole point is to actually say, listen, people have 0:52:10.560 --> 0:52:13.800 been talking about all these little elements for years, and 0:52:13.920 --> 0:52:16.680 here they are. Here they are, and again, make up 0:52:16.719 --> 0:52:19.200 your mind. That is not us with an agenda trying 0:52:19.239 --> 0:52:23.680 to push conspiracies. It is us actually pushing those whatever 0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:25.960 you want to call them, up to the surface and 0:52:26.200 --> 0:52:30.480 presenting them to you the listeners. Also on the conspiracy 0:52:31.040 --> 0:52:35.239 Um conversation, I think we're not just pushing like a 0:52:35.840 --> 0:52:39.799 crack pot conspiracy theory that one guy thought up. If 0:52:39.840 --> 0:52:43.160 it's crack pot, millions of people actually believe that, so 0:52:43.440 --> 0:52:47.760 it would be it wouldn't be authentic if we didn't 0:52:47.800 --> 0:52:52.880 present like crazy things that millions of people believe. So 0:52:53.520 --> 0:52:55.799 we're we're not pushing those but it's you know, it's 0:52:55.840 --> 0:52:58.200 our duty to kind of tell the truth about all 0:52:58.280 --> 0:53:01.200 these different opinions and what people actually believe, and then 0:53:01.400 --> 0:53:04.239 try to break down, Okay, why does this person think 0:53:04.360 --> 0:53:06.560 that way? I think that's what hopefully we've been able 0:53:06.600 --> 0:53:08.160 to do that to the podcast, where if you hear 0:53:08.200 --> 0:53:12.000 something this sounds crazy, we present what drove that person? 0:53:12.120 --> 0:53:17.600 Are these millions of people to think this way? Hi, 0:53:18.160 --> 0:53:21.040 I'm all a long time? How stuff works listener. Um, 0:53:21.520 --> 0:53:24.120 there's a ton of new podcasts from House Touff Works 0:53:24.239 --> 0:53:27.600 right now, a lot of different, uh than what they 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:30.560 were before. Is like ethnically ambiguous culture kings that sort 0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:32.319 of thing. I was wondering if you to talk about 0:53:32.520 --> 0:53:36.120 like the impetus or reasons why how stuff works sort 0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:40.520 of decided to diversify a lot more. That's a great question. 0:53:40.560 --> 0:53:43.400 Thanks for being a supporter. I would say, Um, you know, 0:53:43.560 --> 0:53:46.719 we've we actually as a come. I won't bore you 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:49.440 with the business details, but we had the ability to 0:53:49.800 --> 0:53:52.360 to raise some money that allows that podcast business to 0:53:52.400 --> 0:53:55.440 be its own standalone business. And frankly, a lot of 0:53:55.520 --> 0:53:59.879 our creative ambitions cannot be realized. And so I think 0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:03.319 at last content we we saw something around thirty new 0:54:03.400 --> 0:54:06.239 shows in some level of production where we only had 0:54:06.239 --> 0:54:09.000 about twelve the fifteen shows total over the years. And 0:54:09.120 --> 0:54:11.960 so you are north Star has always been around curiosity 0:54:12.480 --> 0:54:15.200 and that will continue to be our core focus. But 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:19.719 we're also just podcast fans too, and um, we want 0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:23.200 to Um, we want to cover lots of things like 0:54:23.360 --> 0:54:26.719 comedy and true crime and kind of fill those gaps. Um, 0:54:26.840 --> 0:54:29.879 we're gonna get into some fiction. We're gonna get into 0:54:30.040 --> 0:54:34.520 to some health and wellness and some other big categories UM. 0:54:34.800 --> 0:54:37.040 And we just also just didn't want it to be 0:54:37.719 --> 0:54:42.400 you know, UM just the same UM voices. We I 0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:46.799 think if you look at UM a snapshot of our employees, UM, 0:54:47.640 --> 0:54:49.800 they're starting to reflect the kind of shows that we 0:54:49.880 --> 0:54:53.280 have to. So we want more women, we want different 0:54:53.360 --> 0:54:59.120 types of UM UM across the board with diversity. And 0:54:59.200 --> 0:55:01.160 I think there's a hung or across each of those 0:55:01.360 --> 0:55:05.200 UM those groups for more programming like this. So you're 0:55:05.239 --> 0:55:07.960 gonna you're gonna see a lot more from us this year, 0:55:08.080 --> 0:55:10.760 and we're really excited about it. Are they all moving 0:55:10.800 --> 0:55:14.520 into your building? No? I mean part of this is, UM, 0:55:15.200 --> 0:55:16.400 you know, we're not going to be able to do 0:55:16.520 --> 0:55:18.759 every bit of this ourselves, and so we really want 0:55:18.840 --> 0:55:21.400 to work with the best creators out there. And I 0:55:21.520 --> 0:55:24.520 think you know, Painton Donald and Meredith and the Tenderfoot 0:55:24.520 --> 0:55:28.400 team is really UM got us thinking about, UM, how 0:55:28.440 --> 0:55:30.920 do how do we how do we do our own stuff? 0:55:30.960 --> 0:55:33.719 But then how do we also UM tell stories that 0:55:33.800 --> 0:55:36.640 we could never naturally do by ourselves and and kind 0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:38.560 of go in places that we've never been. We had 0:55:38.640 --> 0:55:42.040 never done a true crime anything until this, it was 0:55:42.600 --> 0:55:44.360 a lot of shows that you guys are familiar with, 0:55:44.520 --> 0:55:46.600 and it was new to us and a little bit daunting. 0:55:48.520 --> 0:55:52.000 And for one last question. Hi, my name is Lisa Paint. 0:55:52.080 --> 0:55:53.480 I know you're trying to go to the beach, but 0:55:53.880 --> 0:55:58.040 I'm wondering what's next and how often you get approached 0:55:58.120 --> 0:56:01.160 by people with ideas and how you decide you know 0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:04.640 what your next project is going to be. Well, what's 0:56:04.760 --> 0:56:08.040 next is up in Advantage season two before anything else, 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:11.160 which will be a new case and I've chose that. 0:56:11.239 --> 0:56:14.239 I've chosen the case and it's not in Georgia, so 0:56:14.360 --> 0:56:16.920 I can say about it now, but it's gonna come 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:22.840 out um summer, like late midsummer, So that'll be the 0:56:22.920 --> 0:56:25.560 first thing up. We're also working on up in Advantage, 0:56:25.640 --> 0:56:29.840 the TV series on Oxygen, which we're UM really foreign 0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:32.279 development on and we'll be shooting some stuff in a 0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:35.640 couple of months and so hopefully that'll come out within 0:56:35.719 --> 0:56:38.440 the year, and also some stuff with a Letta Monster 0:56:38.560 --> 0:56:41.160 as far as UM possibly doing some visual stuff for 0:56:41.200 --> 0:56:44.360 that as well, and then they'll eventually be another podcast 0:56:44.640 --> 0:56:49.359 UM from me Tenderfoot UM in the same vein as 0:56:49.480 --> 0:56:53.279 these possibly UM there's also other arenas I want to 0:56:53.360 --> 0:56:56.239 jump into it, or other genres as just say uh. 0:56:56.320 --> 0:56:58.480 In the podcast world, I want to jump into some 0:56:58.680 --> 0:57:01.640 being fiction as well. Um So, I don't really know 0:57:01.719 --> 0:57:04.680 what that other project is that you're talking about, but 0:57:04.760 --> 0:57:07.120 I do have some awesome ideas and it's it's it's 0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:13.600 brewings right now. So pop, that answered your question. Great well, 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:16.640 thank you, Thank you Payne. I know you've been traveling 0:57:16.760 --> 0:57:18.800 and trying to finish the last episode, so we really 0:57:18.800 --> 0:57:22.880 appreciate you being here. It's done, done, one am tonight. 0:57:24.760 --> 0:57:26.640 Jason on the way out to get us phone because 0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:31.560 it's on there. Thank you, Jason, this guy, thank you. 0:57:33.920 --> 0:57:36.280 This podcast is brought to you by tune In, which 0:57:36.360 --> 0:57:39.240 brings together all of the live, sports, music, news and 0:57:39.480 --> 0:57:43.240 podcasts do you love, original, live and on demand audio 0:57:43.480 --> 0:57:46.040 all in one place. Go to tune in dot com 0:57:46.240 --> 0:57:49.080 slash Atlanta Monster to download and listen