Speaker 1: And Atlanta. Another body was this covering today at Police
Speaker 1: Task Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered,
Speaker 1: one missing. We do not know the person or persons
Speaker 1: whatever responsible. Therefore, we do not have the moody from
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV and how stiff works in Atlanta. Like eleven
Speaker 1: other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was a fixynor.
Speaker 1: Atlanta was unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps
Speaker 1: on killing. This is Atlanta monster. That's a great crowd.
Speaker 1: They're ready. Uh it's ten pm. Do you know where
Speaker 1: your children are? We have kind of a young audience here.
Speaker 1: How many of you remember hearing that as a kid
Speaker 1: growing up? And did you know the story behind it?
Speaker 1: I know, I for one, kind of felt like it
Speaker 1: was strange and I didn't really understand, but I knew
Speaker 1: it was bad, but I didn't know what the true
Speaker 1: story was behind it. And as we get in today,
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear kind of how you came together, um,
Speaker 1: from your two sides of how stuff works and Tenderfoot
Speaker 1: TV to bring the story to life. Well, it actually
Speaker 1: starts with you, guys, because was it email me first?
Speaker 1: Or how that work? It was it was really weird. Um,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, We're in the same building in
Speaker 1: Atlanta and we didn't know it. Um, And through some
Speaker 1: circumstances I found out and I said, hey, I reached
Speaker 1: out to Paint and said, let's come on down and
Speaker 1: have coffee and some So Painton and Donald came down,
Speaker 1: and uh, we just started talking and I said, you know,
Speaker 1: up and vanishes really great, and I think the next
Speaker 1: project that we should do together is on this Atlanta
Speaker 1: child murders case that I was nine ten years old
Speaker 1: at the time. Really fascinating, even though I didn't live
Speaker 1: anywhere near Atlanta. And they looked at me like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we talked about that two weeks ago, and uh, and
Speaker 1: we kind of looked at each other and said, well,
Speaker 1: then we have to do it. Yeah. I mean he
Speaker 1: did to take it one step, you know, back, one
Speaker 1: step further. The reason we were even in the same
Speaker 1: building is because we're looking for office space. And then
Speaker 1: pain was like, I think how stuff works is in
Speaker 1: the same buildings. Were like, okay, well that's he was
Speaker 1: the deal. Listen the real podcast. Yeah, yeah, the truth
Speaker 1: comes out on the tune in stage. So basically, you
Speaker 1: were hunting down down right. So but um, yeah, So
Speaker 1: you know when we sat down with Jason and he
Speaker 1: presented the idea of a lot of child murders to us,
Speaker 1: you know, we had literally just talked about it weeks ago,
Speaker 1: and it was something that Paine hadn't heard about before. Um,
Speaker 1: he wasn't even born when it was happening, when the
Speaker 1: when the merger were taking place. Um, I was about
Speaker 1: four years old, all the way in California, that's two
Speaker 1: thousand miles away from where those tragedies were. You know,
Speaker 1: we're happening. But I still remember hearing about it, and
Speaker 1: UM remember those commercials, not not really understanding what's back
Speaker 1: of those commercials were about, but just growing up being
Speaker 1: black and um, just having this effect the black community
Speaker 1: with the black black victims. Um. And and eventually they
Speaker 1: you know, caught a black serial killer. Um. It was
Speaker 1: something that we just I just heard about all the time.
Speaker 1: So we're looking for something to do a new podcast
Speaker 1: before the seconds even up Advantaged and I said, you know, Paint,
Speaker 1: have you heard this before? And I sent him and
Speaker 1: send it to him and he was intrigued, and you know,
Speaker 1: just went from there and Jason, what was it about?
Speaker 1: Working with Payne and Donald that you an aside from
Speaker 1: them stalking outside your building. Yeah, I didn't have a
Speaker 1: choice at that point, you know. I think, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: House Works has been doing podcasts for about ten years,
Speaker 1: you know, and UM, what I appreciate about podcasts, um,
Speaker 1: and I hope this stay is true, is that there's
Speaker 1: not kind of a cookie cut cutter template to how
Speaker 1: things should be done. And what I really really appreciated
Speaker 1: about Up and Advantaged is it was there was kind
Speaker 1: of no rules and so so pain you know, came
Speaker 1: from filmmaking. Um, he had definite ideas around kind of
Speaker 1: what it meant to tell his story. And I loved,
Speaker 1: you know, the layered approach to things, using sound, using
Speaker 1: music for emotion, um, you know, frankly, kind of being
Speaker 1: fearless about it. Where, UM, I feel like we don't
Speaker 1: do that enough in the industry, where let's let's tell
Speaker 1: a big story, let's talk to everyone that we can
Speaker 1: and see where it goes, and you might be surprised
Speaker 1: where that story might end up. And I think Up
Speaker 1: and Vantage is a perfect example of if you're persistent
Speaker 1: and you embed yourself in the community and you talk
Speaker 1: to people and they just know that you're someone they
Speaker 1: can talk to. Things can happen. And I think, um,
Speaker 1: that was just really interesting to me and um and
Speaker 1: and it just speaks to telling big stories. And I
Speaker 1: think that this industry is just right for you know,
Speaker 1: early on it was serial it was s town, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: Think there should be twenty or thirty or forty of
Speaker 1: these each year where these kind of monumental layered stories
Speaker 1: with you know, kind of so many twists and turns,
Speaker 1: but also just the layers of that story are just
Speaker 1: super interesting to me. And so I really admired all
Speaker 1: those qualities. And I've kind of felt like the combination
Speaker 1: of our efforts would um would kind of be a
Speaker 1: power house story if we really put our heads together.
Speaker 1: And I think I think we've done that now. This
Speaker 1: story in particular, no one was telling. There haven't been movies,
Speaker 1: there haven't been kind of the same the There's been
Speaker 1: some books in writing, but there just hasn't been the
Speaker 1: same kind of continuous examination that there have been for
Speaker 1: things like The Zodiac Killer. How did you feel about
Speaker 1: that in terms of coming into it and the approach
Speaker 1: that you took, but also knowing that there was so
Speaker 1: much hesitation from other people jumping into it. It really
Speaker 1: that was one of the main you know, motivations behind
Speaker 1: us wanting to do it was that Paine never heard
Speaker 1: of it. He grew up in Kennesaw. I was after
Speaker 1: you know, it happened. But you know, plenty of people
Speaker 1: didn't grow up during the era of you know, Zodiac
Speaker 1: or you know these other serial killers that have been
Speaker 1: you know ingrained in our mind through TV series and
Speaker 1: books and all these different um adaptations of movies, but
Speaker 1: this was something where it was kind of forgotten, and
Speaker 1: you know, doing some digging within the podcast, it's there's
Speaker 1: there's a reason why, um. I think initially, you know,
Speaker 1: these were all poor black victims and just historically you're
Speaker 1: not going to get the same attention being poor number
Speaker 1: one and then being a minority number two. So that's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons. But also, you know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of political stuff involved with this um with these murders,
Speaker 1: and it was something that Atlanta wanted to forget about.
Speaker 1: So within the investigation, you know, we um uncovered some
Speaker 1: of that stuff and just had a better understanding ourselves
Speaker 1: of why you know, I was hearing about it, but
Speaker 1: we took it upon our I'll just say, look, if
Speaker 1: you've never heard about this, it's important and you should
Speaker 1: know about it. So we want to just tell that
Speaker 1: story and read. The ultimate goal was, look if we
Speaker 1: can bring the millennial generation who's never heard of it
Speaker 1: and the black community who's familiar with it, but they're
Speaker 1: not really um having maybe heard the entire story because
Speaker 1: there's been so much rumor and um, so many conspiracy
Speaker 1: theories throughout the years, which happens when you don't have,
Speaker 1: you know, a platform to tell to speak truth from.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to bring these two groups in the
Speaker 1: middle somewhere to meet and just have a conversation about race,
Speaker 1: about um, you know, the criminal justice system. And I
Speaker 1: think that's what we've been able to do. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was just gonna say, Um, there was a little bit
Speaker 1: of the perception early on was I don't know. We
Speaker 1: we got a lot of comments from people that say, oh,
Speaker 1: there's no way that Pain couldn't have heard of this case. No, No,
Speaker 1: he's just making he's just he's making that up for
Speaker 1: a story. And I gotta tell you, Um, the two
Speaker 1: crowds of people that have actually given us tons of feedback,
Speaker 1: one has been the people that were alive at the time,
Speaker 1: and they remembered it, but they didn't really remember it
Speaker 1: when psychics and all this crazy stuff happened. And then
Speaker 1: literally a whole generation of people that says, wait, so
Speaker 1: twenty eight African American kids were killed and I never
Speaker 1: knew about this, And I think, you know, pain is
Speaker 1: a lot like our audience in terms of like, how
Speaker 1: could such a big tragedy happen? And there never kind
Speaker 1: of be a big stage to tell this like some
Speaker 1: of the other serial killers, um in our history of America.
Speaker 1: And that was kind of a surprise for us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I found out pretty quickly the born eight seven there
Speaker 1: was a lot of people like me, I just turned
Speaker 1: thirty this year that had never heard of this at all,
Speaker 1: and um, you know, it's such a big tragedy that
Speaker 1: affected not only the city of Atlanta but just the
Speaker 1: whole nation that I found it interesting that there was
Speaker 1: others out there like myself who had never heard of it.
Speaker 1: And that was one of the reasons that I chose
Speaker 1: to to continue researching this story and to make it
Speaker 1: into a podcast, and not only researching, by creating and
Speaker 1: producing it up to the very last minute before published.
Speaker 1: So how many people here are caught up? And are
Speaker 1: you all waiting to go home tonight for the drop
Speaker 1: of the final episode. Well, we have a surprise for
Speaker 1: you because we have a preview clip of the final episode.
Speaker 1: We do. I'm kidding, we do, we do. Pay do
Speaker 1: you mind just setting it up for us? So this
Speaker 1: is um Dale Russell. It's actually a preview for tonight's episode.
Speaker 1: There's one episode next week which will be ten, which
Speaker 1: is the finale. So it's a nice episode, episode nine.
Speaker 1: It's called the Trial, and this is Dale Russell. He's
Speaker 1: a Fox five Atlanta reporter and he's talking about during
Speaker 1: the trial when Wayne blew up on the stand and
Speaker 1: it kind of changed the trajectory of why or just
Speaker 1: how he's How he was convicted in the first place
Speaker 1: is one of the major points. So this is him
Speaker 1: talking about it. They had a breaking They had to
Speaker 1: show the jury a different sign of Wayne Williams. They
Speaker 1: hand to let the jury see that this unassuming guy
Speaker 1: sitting in front of them had this other sign to
Speaker 1: his personality, and they got it. Wayne Williams was not
Speaker 1: the mild Mannard witness we saw the last two days.
Speaker 1: He was irritable, arrogant assistant d A. Jack Mallard had
Speaker 1: him right where he wanted him. He finally broke, and
Speaker 1: he snapped at the prosecutor. He called FBI agents goons,
Speaker 1: didn't answer some of the prosecutor's questions and said his
Speaker 1: own defense attorney Mary Welcome, forced him to give an
Speaker 1: interview for money. You want the real Wayne Williams. When
Speaker 1: you got him right here as an observer, he was electric. Mallard,
Speaker 1: Mr Williams, you've been eating up all this worldwide publicity,
Speaker 1: haven't you, Williams, No, I haven't. I'm tired of sitting here.
Speaker 1: You're telling these folks I fit the profile, Mallard. Wasn't
Speaker 1: these murders your center stage? Williams, you must be a
Speaker 1: cool I distinctly remember writing down I've got it here
Speaker 1: for you, looking up at somebody I don't remember who,
Speaker 1: making eye contact and looking at the edge O. They
Speaker 1: were like, oh my gosh, here we go, Here we go.
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of people are wondering about
Speaker 1: that first conversation. How can you talk to us, like
Speaker 1: how that unfolded with Wayne? With Wayne, how you felt
Speaker 1: about that? Um, it was weird to be honest, Um,
Speaker 1: it was I think you were in the room, and
Speaker 1: you were in the room and I was like be quiet,
Speaker 1: like one of those things. Um, And I didn't know
Speaker 1: what to expect. I was being introduced by Dwayne. Not
Speaker 1: to be confused with Wayne and or me pain yes,
Speaker 1: but um yeah, I was. I just thought it was
Speaker 1: super weird. But um, he was very nice and he
Speaker 1: was charismatic, and he was easy to I would say,
Speaker 1: talk to you, but listen to at least. Um. It
Speaker 1: was hard for me to kind of reel in and
Speaker 1: it's sort of give any direction to the conversation like
Speaker 1: I usually do in an interview or something. But UM, yeah,
Speaker 1: I just found it very interesting. And it's really it's
Speaker 1: been the same since then. It has not wavered at all.
Speaker 1: He's He's the same the whole time, which is also
Speaker 1: very interesting. So you've never seen that side of him,
Speaker 1: the getting really agitated, And I haven't know, And I'm
Speaker 1: just curious, um, in terms of you are you're actively
Speaker 1: producing the show, as you're talking to him, as people
Speaker 1: are reaching out to you, how do you balance that
Speaker 1: kind of following where their story is going, but also
Speaker 1: needing to lead it and push it it is UM
Speaker 1: extremely difficult to say the least, actually believe it or not.
Speaker 1: This is how difficult it is. On the way here,
Speaker 1: I was listening to episode nine on my phone in
Speaker 1: the elevator to get here, to make sure that there
Speaker 1: was no mistakes in it. UM. And like that clip
Speaker 1: you heard this morning, I made that this morning actually
Speaker 1: in Atlanta. So like, this is not how you should
Speaker 1: do your podcast at all. Please don't do this to yourself.
Speaker 1: I agree with that, but if you do, call me,
Speaker 1: I'll try to help you out. But seriously, it's UM.
Speaker 1: It's crazy because it opens the door to so many
Speaker 1: things because you know, a lot of the findings we
Speaker 1: have and some revelations coming in episode nine and ten
Speaker 1: have been because the podcast got so big and allowed
Speaker 1: for us to find new things, new information, new people.
Speaker 1: So in a lot of ways, it's very helpful. But
Speaker 1: you still have to build a story arc and and
Speaker 1: map it all out, and there's so many little technical
Speaker 1: things that make a podcast good and you still have
Speaker 1: to do those things and they take a lot of time.
Speaker 1: So doing that and talking to Wayne in real time
Speaker 1: and going here and going there, it's it's very difficult.
Speaker 1: You have time for nothing, else. Um, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: that's a thank you to Meredith. You're yes, and if yes,
Speaker 1: thank you Meredith for putting up with all that. I was,
Speaker 1: I was, how many interviews? Like I look at the
Speaker 1: dropbox and I see all these interviews, all these files,
Speaker 1: and I was I was trying to count how many
Speaker 1: interviews with Wayne or clips? It's it's thirty forty maybe more.
Speaker 1: What is it? I don't know. There was so many
Speaker 1: folders in there that I just made a folder that
Speaker 1: that's called stuff That's less important, and I started dumping
Speaker 1: stuff in there that I was like, that's not important,
Speaker 1: that's not because there was so many folders I couldn't
Speaker 1: even find like one thing beca. It's probably as far
Speaker 1: as Wayne goes, at least thirty plus calls in there,
Speaker 1: and um, even some as recent as a few days ago.
Speaker 1: So it's, uh, we're excited to kind of come to
Speaker 1: a conclusion. I know a lot of people are during
Speaker 1: what they're listening, They're like, what's the point, what are
Speaker 1: you doing? Well, the first point was, you know, have
Speaker 1: you heard this story before? Do you know all the
Speaker 1: details to even care about how this could in the
Speaker 1: first place. I think that we're there now obviously, and
Speaker 1: so in episode nine, not to give too much away,
Speaker 1: we kind of explore, well, why was Wayne convicted in
Speaker 1: the first place? He was? So, what are those bad
Speaker 1: parts of Wayne William's true or not? What convinced the
Speaker 1: jury that he was get t And then from there
Speaker 1: we kind of end up in this new place for
Speaker 1: the first time, and we concluded an episode ten. I
Speaker 1: want to give too much away, but that's where we are.
Speaker 1: I think this room really wants you to give too
Speaker 1: much away what we want? Well, what do you mean
Speaker 1: maybe after the microphones turn off? Um? So, I think
Speaker 1: what what is so wonderful is to see how many
Speaker 1: people are listening, how many people you have now exposed
Speaker 1: to this story. How did you think about the audience
Speaker 1: that you were trying to reach and how did that
Speaker 1: guide the decisions you made and either the production or
Speaker 1: how you released it. I think the production. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's different sides of this, you know, and such
Speaker 1: a polarizing case. Everyone picks aside and they stick to it.
Speaker 1: He's guilty of everything, or he's innocent, he did nothing wrong,
Speaker 1: and you've got to find out how do you find
Speaker 1: an audience within there that's willing to even hear this
Speaker 1: story from a neutral perspective, and you know, we get
Speaker 1: a couple of different things. I mean, I think pain
Speaker 1: being the host as someone who didn't experience it growing
Speaker 1: up as someone who's a different race than the killer
Speaker 1: and the the convicted killer and the victims automatically opens
Speaker 1: it up. So it's bigger than just a black story,
Speaker 1: because I think it's important that everyone knows the story,
Speaker 1: not just one race or another. It's it's the tragedy
Speaker 1: that you know needs to be exposed so and itself.
Speaker 1: How we were able to do it, I think UM
Speaker 1: brought in a more broad audience and then even from
Speaker 1: a from a marketing perspective, UM you know, we wanted
Speaker 1: to reach people who weren't traditional podcast listeners. You know,
Speaker 1: we did billboards in Atlanta, we did trailers, you know,
Speaker 1: visual trailers before we ran UM TV commercials of that
Speaker 1: trailer on TV one, just targeting a you know, forty
Speaker 1: and up urban audience. So you know, we had to
Speaker 1: identify who we wanted to listen to this and it
Speaker 1: was you know, we kind of knew what that was,
Speaker 1: but we knew we had to figure out how to
Speaker 1: actually go get them. So we you know, we did
Speaker 1: some things that most people don't do when when in
Speaker 1: podcast promotion. So I think I think it worked and
Speaker 1: I think it left an impression in Atlanta. We knew
Speaker 1: that the people in Atlanta have heard this story, but they,
Speaker 1: you know, were intrigued in too interested in it. So
Speaker 1: the billboard just had the mug shot that if you
Speaker 1: were around, you remembered that mug shot, and that's what
Speaker 1: the cover is. So when when that was upon billboards,
Speaker 1: so many people have come to me and said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I saw this on Spring Street or on Ponce and
Speaker 1: it intrigued them to usually hadn't listened, it was on
Speaker 1: their mind to go and listen. And those and those
Speaker 1: billboards were right in the same parts where actually a
Speaker 1: lot of these kids were found. Um where we're in
Speaker 1: in the Atlanta where in midtown Atlanta, um and kind
Speaker 1: of in a what two to five mile radius is
Speaker 1: where most of those kids first started disappearing. And it's
Speaker 1: it's very humbling when you hear a clip about someone
Speaker 1: who called into a pastor. I think it was episode
Speaker 1: or episode episode two or three, and I'm talking about
Speaker 1: Ponce daileone Avenue We're like, that's our address. The guy
Speaker 1: was down the street at a bar when he called,
Speaker 1: and it's just it really brings it home. UM. I
Speaker 1: love what Donald said about bringing in new listeners. Um.
Speaker 1: Every part of what we did we wanted to kind
Speaker 1: of do something big and different. So it wasn't just
Speaker 1: the story. It was we actually hired an actor and
Speaker 1: shot some scenes. We did, uh throwing a um what's
Speaker 1: his name? What was the name of the body, rescue Randy,
Speaker 1: rescue Randy over the bridge, and just trying to kind of, um,
Speaker 1: just do things differently. We dropped four audio trailers or
Speaker 1: teasers before to build up interest, so kind of UM,
Speaker 1: build that buzz, and I think it actually drove people
Speaker 1: nuts because they couldn't stand it anymore. And then UM
Speaker 1: and four video video trailers that would play out in
Speaker 1: different mediums and kind of educate people. And if they
Speaker 1: saw it, they would say, wait, what what was that?
Speaker 1: Like There's shots of UM pulling kids out of a
Speaker 1: river and a little boy that's scared of going outside
Speaker 1: at night, and it just it instantly makes you think,
Speaker 1: I don't know what this is, but I have to
Speaker 1: listen to this right now. And so UM that was
Speaker 1: a combination of having audio teams, video teams, archives, the
Speaker 1: whole thing to tell a big story. And and that's
Speaker 1: just going big. Yeah. A lot of people thought it
Speaker 1: was a you know, television series or something because it
Speaker 1: was high quality of visuals and re enactments that we use.
Speaker 1: And when you see it on TV or you see
Speaker 1: it on the internet and it looks like it looks good,
Speaker 1: we don't want them to think of it as a podcast.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what that is or you know,
Speaker 1: I don't listen to podcasts. We want to be good
Speaker 1: enough to where you'll go anywhere to find it. And
Speaker 1: I think, you know, um, I think we did. We
Speaker 1: did that, and I think it's still growing and kind
Speaker 1: of we want to just set the bar for like
Speaker 1: how you promote important projects and podcasts. They're they're growing there.
Speaker 1: You know, they're big and they should be treated as such,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean with the marketing and you know,
Speaker 1: just a little more innovation from the promotions and marketing side.
Speaker 1: Now you mentioned archives. Jason and I have a shared
Speaker 1: love of American history and primary source materials. Um, I'd
Speaker 1: love for you to talk about how much that influenced
Speaker 1: the story and I think a big thank you has
Speaker 1: to go out to the archivists who kept all this
Speaker 1: material for you to then dig through. It is Jason's
Speaker 1: expertise here, it's it's it's interesting backstory. So, um, the
Speaker 1: University of Georgia has been holding onto ws TVs video archives.
Speaker 1: It's down in a vault in a basement in University
Speaker 1: of Georgia, which is what about an hour or so
Speaker 1: outside of Atlanta and Athens, Georgia. And uh, they've just
Speaker 1: had all these original they were video clips and they
Speaker 1: have a series of researchers and archivists that we're waiting
Speaker 1: one day for someone to show up and want to
Speaker 1: tap into this and it was us, And um, I
Speaker 1: just I think it adds again that layer to the
Speaker 1: story that is interesting. It also it's jarring when you
Speaker 1: hear um people talking about so and so identified themselves
Speaker 1: as a homosexual and and it's just not the way
Speaker 1: we talk anymore. And this was this wasn't kind of
Speaker 1: you know, Joe, average person on the street. This is
Speaker 1: actually the news media reporting on these things. And it's
Speaker 1: just I think hearing stories told differently, um using that
Speaker 1: that archive material, but also to kind of move the
Speaker 1: story forward in an emotional way. I think it's really interesting,
Speaker 1: but pain can speak to this. We didn't just want
Speaker 1: this to be a history lesson or a History channel
Speaker 1: type experience. It needed to go deeper than that, and
Speaker 1: so the the archive footage was always meant to help
Speaker 1: move the story forward, but not be the story itself.
Speaker 1: You think. One just interesting tidbit about the archives that
Speaker 1: you guys might find interesting is that, like each clip
Speaker 1: you hear is thirty seconds or sixty seconds of a
Speaker 1: clip that's like an hour long, and then there's literally
Speaker 1: several thousand clips. And so they went through and tagged
Speaker 1: all the clips by name and number with time codes
Speaker 1: and kind of described what was being talked about. But
Speaker 1: so in between there you have all this other bizarre
Speaker 1: stuff from the eighties and it's actually some of its hilarious,
Speaker 1: just actually looking back and seeing just society in nineteen age. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: bizarre things from the eighties, so that now we just
Speaker 1: have to talk about it. We weren't going to talk
Speaker 1: about it, but now we have to talk about it.
Speaker 1: Jason's US Weekly Magazine another obsession. I'm a history major,
Speaker 1: so I get into this stuff. I mean, and I
Speaker 1: talked about this on our special episode called The Vault,
Speaker 1: which is the fact that um Wayne was just all
Speaker 1: over the media and kind of attached to this, and
Speaker 1: he did an interview with US Weekly with just kind
Speaker 1: of this salacious um dramatic magazine. And I got obsessed
Speaker 1: trying to find this, and so I searched the internet.
Speaker 1: It wasn't anywhere. I found it on eBay, ordered it
Speaker 1: and got kind of to pristine copies of the two editions,
Speaker 1: and there was and it was kind of positioned next
Speaker 1: to old cigarette ads and liquor ads and and kind
Speaker 1: of all the stuff, and I just I still, I
Speaker 1: look at it and I can't get my can't get
Speaker 1: my arms around it and understand it. But it is
Speaker 1: another crazy layer to this case, for sure. And I
Speaker 1: borrowed it from you and you text me was like
Speaker 1: do you still have the magazine? I was like, yeah, still, okay,
Speaker 1: could you bring it to me when you're done. It's like, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: that's fine, So full disclosure. I asked Jason to bring
Speaker 1: it today. I think he was afraid to have it
Speaker 1: leave his office. It's it's probably on his desk in
Speaker 1: a case. You brought it in your pocket so actually
Speaker 1: what that what that brings us to is how how
Speaker 1: are you balancing then the first person because I think
Speaker 1: to your point, Jason, you didn't want this to feel
Speaker 1: like a history lesson and you really went out and
Speaker 1: drove around the neighborhoods where this, where this happened. How
Speaker 1: did you balance those two of the archival and then
Speaker 1: um first person interviews? Well, to me that the history
Speaker 1: element of this is actually the most important part of it.
Speaker 1: But me as a listener thinking objectively about this project,
Speaker 1: that would be boring to me. And so I wanted
Speaker 1: to bring new information and mesh the two together and
Speaker 1: tell a different story than just me playing archive clips
Speaker 1: for you and playing interviews of people just recounting what
Speaker 1: happened one time. UM, I wanted to bring in new information,
Speaker 1: explore theories, but also stay true to the archives and
Speaker 1: everything else and all the racial bar bifurcations that are
Speaker 1: just so prevalent in the story and UM, just tell
Speaker 1: it the right way. And to me, that was sticking
Speaker 1: true to the history of it, because the history is important,
Speaker 1: but also bringing new information to the table. And what
Speaker 1: did you feel like you UM wanted to tell so
Speaker 1: far that you haven't been able to because you have
Speaker 1: done some of the extra episodes where you've delved into
Speaker 1: the side stories. Is there anyone, any story is still
Speaker 1: nagging at you? Um, it's it's hard to say. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's this story is so complex and there's so much
Speaker 1: you could tell. You could make a hundred podcasts on this,
Speaker 1: but UM, to me, the biggest thing and it's I
Speaker 1: want to just tell people so badly like what I'm
Speaker 1: thinking sometimes, but this is not really the place to
Speaker 1: do that. Um. There's also what I sayings too, were
Speaker 1: just listen to the end, you know, listen one through
Speaker 1: ten and then come talk to me. And so like
Speaker 1: week by week, I'm like, just you just don't know
Speaker 1: what you don't know yet. So like that kind of
Speaker 1: stuff is, why isn't he talking about this? Lane's got him? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Stuff like that. We also can't really say, like from
Speaker 1: tell people what we think or Pain can't just weighing
Speaker 1: on an opinion because the next week he might feel differently.
Speaker 1: And we've changed positions on this thing several times. And
Speaker 1: we have a conversation, you know, internally with our production
Speaker 1: staff with Pain, and from week to week, you know,
Speaker 1: we we might feel feel differently. So it's important that
Speaker 1: even for us that you know, we're waiting to the
Speaker 1: end and we say, Okay, we've digested all this, we
Speaker 1: know you know what was left out, we know what
Speaker 1: we've covered in the podcast, and you know, how do
Speaker 1: we feel about this? And but yeah, you have to
Speaker 1: wait till the end to really form an opinion. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And part of that too is, UM, I think I'm
Speaker 1: not spoiling anything when I say, um, we you know,
Speaker 1: pain is not saying this is how I feel and
Speaker 1: this is how you should feel. Part of this is
Speaker 1: all of us should be listening to this and going
Speaker 1: through a lot of those same emotions and maybe thinking, well,
Speaker 1: you know, um, what is my bias? And why am
Speaker 1: I thinking this? Is it because I'm white? Is it
Speaker 1: because I'm black? Is it because I grew up in Atlanta?
Speaker 1: Is it because um I was um of of age
Speaker 1: at the time and I remember that, or maybe I
Speaker 1: don't know anything about it, and and I think, um,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that we want to
Speaker 1: leave with um anyone that's listened is how do I
Speaker 1: make up my own mind? But why am I making
Speaker 1: my mind up in a certain way? What is my bias.
Speaker 1: What have I collected here? And you may not have
Speaker 1: a clear answer, And and that's okay too. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's great as a as a listener, it's it's
Speaker 1: almost a relief to hear you say this, because I
Speaker 1: certainly from week over a week would feel one way
Speaker 1: and then listen to the next episode and feel the
Speaker 1: other way. And sometimes would hear Wayne and as he's
Speaker 1: going down kind of his pathways, of the conversations you're
Speaker 1: having with him, just even in that moment listening to
Speaker 1: him would change my my perception of him. But you
Speaker 1: can't forget either. I can't tell you how to feel
Speaker 1: about something. And a lot of the way I presented
Speaker 1: this was you tell me what you think about Episode five,
Speaker 1: Wayne's World. Wayne talking to me. I'm not gonna tell
Speaker 1: what I think. You tell me what you think. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put it out there. I'm not gonna influence
Speaker 1: you at all. I'm gonna make sure it's all there
Speaker 1: and the important parts are highlighted. But that's kind of
Speaker 1: what this is in a lot of ways, is what
Speaker 1: did you get from this? And you'll see very quickly
Speaker 1: this is why it's so complicated, so why people still
Speaker 1: talk about this. I definitely think that's why it's so
Speaker 1: compelling as a listen because you you do have to
Speaker 1: think through that, and you're pushing us as listeners to
Speaker 1: get to that point. Um. I know that you've got
Speaker 1: in some some heat for saying you're not a podcaster, um,
Speaker 1: but I'd love to hear you kind of talk about
Speaker 1: that and how that impacts your storytelling. What does that
Speaker 1: mean to you? And is it this being able to
Speaker 1: say I'm just gonna put something out there and let
Speaker 1: the audience react as they see fit. Yeah, I said
Speaker 1: I'm not a podcaster one time, and people got mad
Speaker 1: about that. But what I actually meant, if you heard, um,
Speaker 1: was it podcast movement? The little thing I said, basically
Speaker 1: it was, is that I was scared to make podcasts
Speaker 1: before I made a podcast because I didn't think that
Speaker 1: I fit in and I still don't fit in that well.
Speaker 1: But it turns out that doesn't matter, actually, And that
Speaker 1: was the whole point. It's not that I don't like podcasters.
Speaker 1: If I didn't like podcasters and me and Jason went
Speaker 1: me friends, but like, seriously, it's to me, it's just
Speaker 1: the whole labeling of things people you know have a
Speaker 1: problem with like when you're doing a podcast, well, what
Speaker 1: are you? You filmmaker? You have made a film. It's like,
Speaker 1: why do I have to be labeled something? And I
Speaker 1: kind of just like tell stories and do stuff in
Speaker 1: two years if I'm doing something wildly different, am I
Speaker 1: still what I am today? Or am I just the
Speaker 1: same person? I'm just growing. So I just don't like
Speaker 1: the label thing very much. And the podcast label really,
Speaker 1: in all, honestly almost deterred me from making a podcast.
Speaker 1: I did not think that I I fit in. I
Speaker 1: just that was not my thing. So why would I
Speaker 1: be good at that? Why would people listen to that?
Speaker 1: And really, like, genuinely I almost didn't do it because
Speaker 1: of just that and not look back like, wow, that
Speaker 1: would have been really stupid if that's why I didn't
Speaker 1: do it. So I just choose to tell that story
Speaker 1: that way. So yeah, I'm still on a podcast. When
Speaker 1: people ask and I alsot it's steams from up and
Speaker 1: vantaged episode one where you know, we kind of just
Speaker 1: disarmed the listener by saying, look, I'm I'm paint Lendsy.
Speaker 1: I'm doing this podcast, but beware, I'm not a podcaster.
Speaker 1: I'm not a journalist, I'm not an attorney. I'm just
Speaker 1: really not qualified to be doing this. So, you know
Speaker 1: what a judgment too hard And that's where you know,
Speaker 1: that's what sparked it. So, I mean, it wasn't made
Speaker 1: a statement. It was like to the podcast world. It
Speaker 1: was to the five thousand listeners of Up and Vantished
Speaker 1: Episode one, and it just became, you know, it just
Speaker 1: steamrolled in this bigger thing. And to be honest, you
Speaker 1: know when we first, you know, we we know each
Speaker 1: other through the music industry, and um, we're both burnt
Speaker 1: out of you know, being in the music industry and
Speaker 1: just the monotony of you know, what we're doing, and
Speaker 1: you know, pain and say look I want to do
Speaker 1: something on the TV and film space. I said, look,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm down. Let me know what I can do
Speaker 1: to hell. So Up and Vanished The Disappearance of Terry
Speaker 1: Grinstead was supposed to be a documentary, and then when
Speaker 1: we realized that it costs too much money for us
Speaker 1: to to do a documentary by ourselves, he decided, let's
Speaker 1: make this a podcast and stay. So the entire idea
Speaker 1: of us getting into a new field and doing some
Speaker 1: storytelling was about film and TV, not about podcasting. So
Speaker 1: I think that's another, you know, the reason why he
Speaker 1: described himself that way. And I think this comes back
Speaker 1: to Jason. You're saying just looking for the big stories
Speaker 1: and really being able to jump into those and and
Speaker 1: tell those and whatever medium it is. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: saying this yesterday on the panel, Um that it was
Speaker 1: a part of I think I got this right. But
Speaker 1: I think it's been forty three days since Cyrial launched.
Speaker 1: You've been counting every day or I did my homework
Speaker 1: before I came here. Um, it's on the desk with
Speaker 1: the US week and uh, I mean total props to
Speaker 1: that show. Um, it continues to be in the top
Speaker 1: twenty or top thirty on Apple podcasts every single week.
Speaker 1: And so when you look at this in a positive way,
Speaker 1: you'd say, you know, while that really is the starter
Speaker 1: kit for anyone that is new to pot cast, this
Speaker 1: is I think everyone's gone through that right. Oh my gosh, Serriel,
Speaker 1: you have to listen to serial now. It's Cereal and
Speaker 1: s Town and and I think that's been great to
Speaker 1: kind of get people in the door. But I think
Speaker 1: we need to tell bigger stories and kind of the
Speaker 1: idea around Atlanta Monster was how does Tenderfoot and House
Speaker 1: to Works kind of come together as as uh, cool
Speaker 1: credible storytellers with different expertises and different voices and different
Speaker 1: disciplines and and kind of elevate um in our own way,
Speaker 1: UM one story that might be bigger and and do
Speaker 1: things creatively. And we're starting to see more people kind
Speaker 1: of getting out there and and I look at the
Speaker 1: industry and I want to see more, and I think
Speaker 1: listeners do too. I think they're hungry for more, and
Speaker 1: we need to give them more. Um. That's why everyone's
Speaker 1: talking about Atlanta Monster. Not I'm not trying to kind
Speaker 1: of say that we're awesome and we're promoting ourselves, but
Speaker 1: we I think we fed them something they really wanted.
Speaker 1: I say, you're awesome, what's up? Thank you? That's nice.
Speaker 1: So I'm actually hearing um. A lot of people say
Speaker 1: that Up and Vanished has now been their first podcast
Speaker 1: that they hear about a podcast. And I feel like
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, Cereal was that that starter kit.
Speaker 1: But now I'm hearing Up and Vanished. How do you
Speaker 1: feel about that? That's pretty cool because Cereal is why
Speaker 1: I made a podcast, basically because I would not have
Speaker 1: known what podcasting was if my friend didn't say, hey,
Speaker 1: I ever heard of Cereal? I was like, no, what's that?
Speaker 1: And then I started listening to Cereal. And then so
Speaker 1: when I went to go make this uh up and
Speaker 1: Vantaged documentary which is gonna be a TV series, at first, um,
Speaker 1: I was like, well I really liked Cereal. Someone to
Speaker 1: go look for other true kind podcasts to kind of
Speaker 1: see how it was made or what was out there,
Speaker 1: and I decided that I should make one. Don't Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the biggest compliment to me is when
Speaker 1: someone says, look, you you brought me into this new space.
Speaker 1: Never listened to a podcast before, because I hadn't listened
Speaker 1: to a podcast until Up and Vantage episode one. That's
Speaker 1: the first podcast I ever listened to. And then Pain
Speaker 1: was like, um, probably right about right, maybe a day
Speaker 1: before yeah, I mean probably yeah, yeah, but you know.
Speaker 1: And then the first thing Pain told me was, look,
Speaker 1: if we're gonna do this and do it right, go
Speaker 1: you gotta go listen to Cereal. And so the second podcast,
Speaker 1: let's do with Cereal. And then when it started to
Speaker 1: blow up, we said, okay, look we now have a
Speaker 1: podcast business. So then I listened to Startup, which was
Speaker 1: a cheat sheet for how we're gonna start up our own,
Speaker 1: you know, podcasting company. So you know, this just goes
Speaker 1: to show you could have not not be a podcast listener.
Speaker 1: I never have made a podcast before. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's all about the storytelling and trying to tackle big
Speaker 1: stories and and just telling them in a way that's
Speaker 1: that's compelling to the listener. And I think you shouldn't
Speaker 1: shy away from controversial stories, you know, stories where you
Speaker 1: know they're gonna be polarizing to listener. You you have
Speaker 1: to really tell the big stories and and and it
Speaker 1: intreagues people and brings them in when they feel like
Speaker 1: this is something that I can't talk to everyone about.
Speaker 1: Guess what podcasting really is. It's you and you're earbuds.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a private experience, and you want to
Speaker 1: try to bring that out to the larger community, and
Speaker 1: people obsess over they want to talk to their friends
Speaker 1: about it. All right, you listen to up Advantage, You're
Speaker 1: listening to a lot of monsters, So that's what we
Speaker 1: want to hear that. You know, Hey, I never listened
Speaker 1: to this, but it was so good, and I heard
Speaker 1: about it so much that I wanted to come into
Speaker 1: the podcast under the podcasting tent just to listen to
Speaker 1: your podcast. So yeah, that's what I love about audio.
Speaker 1: It's it can go from being that really personal, intimate
Speaker 1: experience to them that very shared community. Exactly that when
Speaker 1: you find someone else that's listening to the show that
Speaker 1: you love, you just cannot wait to talk to them
Speaker 1: about it. How do you build that connection with your audience.
Speaker 1: It's it's hard to say exactly because I'm on the
Speaker 1: other end of it. I don't have the same experience
Speaker 1: as you have. Sometimes I wish I had that experience
Speaker 1: with this show or whatever show I'm working on, because
Speaker 1: you know, you hear it so much. It's not they're
Speaker 1: the same anymore. All the material is just not the same.
Speaker 1: Um to me, it's like who in here makes a
Speaker 1: podcasts or wants to anyone in here trying to do that? Okay,
Speaker 1: that's pretty good amount. When we say like good storytelling,
Speaker 1: do you even know we're talking about? I would be like,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Like you know what I mean? Um,
Speaker 1: I think that a good podcast, at least the kind
Speaker 1: that we've been making it's not just telling a good
Speaker 1: overall story, it's the very tiny little things the matter.
Speaker 1: It's like, for example, I'm taking the ums out of
Speaker 1: someone talking, just making the listening experience clean, and you
Speaker 1: begin you begin to depend on it, and you don't
Speaker 1: even know what those things actually are anymore. You might
Speaker 1: listen to another podcast like, I don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: like it as much, but I don't really know why.
Speaker 1: It's those little things. So we're always focusing on those details.
Speaker 1: We're trying to make it sound good. We're we're also
Speaker 1: we're trying tell a big story and to tell it right,
Speaker 1: but we're also focusing just as much on making something
Speaker 1: sound good. So like, if you want to make your
Speaker 1: own podcast, you know, that's really what you should focus on.
Speaker 1: To be honest. If you have good content and you're
Speaker 1: trying your hardest and it sounds good, then it's gonna
Speaker 1: be good. People are gonna like it. Yeah, And I think, um,
Speaker 1: I love um the kind of backstory on the use
Speaker 1: of music in the in the podcast to um and
Speaker 1: that's highly underrated as a as a mechanism for for
Speaker 1: driving emotion and podcasts. And uh, I mean I love
Speaker 1: how this kind of got cranking. I got got cranking
Speaker 1: as we as we. I want this eighties music throughout
Speaker 1: the whole thing. And I found this guy on Spotify.
Speaker 1: His name is Makeup and Vandy Set. It's just one guy.
Speaker 1: I thought it was this big group of people who
Speaker 1: know its just a guy in his laptop. He's awesome. Um.
Speaker 1: But I called him up also, like, hey, would you
Speaker 1: be interested in basically scoring this podcast? And he had
Speaker 1: never listened to a podcast either. Then he listened to
Speaker 1: Up and Up and Vanished and was like, I totally
Speaker 1: get it now, and he just progressed as every episode
Speaker 1: has gone by making amazing music. To me, I like that.
Speaker 1: I like being submerged in a sequence and just sort
Speaker 1: of being there in the moment. Some people don't like
Speaker 1: the music. I kind of like it, so that's why
Speaker 1: you always hear it that way. But you know, make
Speaker 1: what you like and just making your best that's pretty
Speaker 1: much it. How much of that is an influence from
Speaker 1: your music background, I don't know. I think it's just
Speaker 1: kind of to me. I always sort of thought podcasts
Speaker 1: were kind of boring. Um. I didn't really listen to
Speaker 1: talk radio that much, so I didn't really kind of
Speaker 1: get into that. So when I first made up and vanished,
Speaker 1: I was trying to make something that I thought was compelling,
Speaker 1: what would suck me in, And so I had this
Speaker 1: sort of these music beds in the background and just
Speaker 1: sort of setting the scene and making this tone that
Speaker 1: really grabs you. So it comes from that really, to
Speaker 1: be honest, yeah, I'd agree. I mean, paintings, music, background
Speaker 1: goes it goes back a long way. So he understands,
Speaker 1: you know, production, He understands the timing, even when it
Speaker 1: comes to how interviews are edited, and you know how
Speaker 1: that one second pause or you know, those things make
Speaker 1: a big difference. Things are huge. Yeah, So if you
Speaker 1: don't know why you like one one podcast more than
Speaker 1: another has a lot to do with the editing, the production.
Speaker 1: I think also, you know, the music, like we talked about,
Speaker 1: but I think the relatability of the host plays a
Speaker 1: huge part in it, because you could listen to a
Speaker 1: really great story or you know, interesting story, but the
Speaker 1: person who's delivering that story is just the language they speak,
Speaker 1: isn't the language that you're understanding how they phrase things.
Speaker 1: I feel like when I started listening to podcasts and
Speaker 1: I felt like, is the host just trying to show
Speaker 1: me how smart they are by the way they're trying
Speaker 1: to tell the story. I just want to hear a
Speaker 1: good story. It doesn't have to be told from the
Speaker 1: perspective or from you know you. You spent you know,
Speaker 1: days and weeks writing this one part to see let
Speaker 1: me let me, you know, go in the saurus and
Speaker 1: figure out a better word to say here that makes
Speaker 1: me sound even smarter. It's like, just just tell me
Speaker 1: your story so I can relate to it. And and
Speaker 1: those are the things that you know, you like, why
Speaker 1: do I like this and not that one? Both could
Speaker 1: be good stories, but how is it relating to you?
Speaker 1: With pain, he's he's like the audience when it comes
Speaker 1: to like, oh, I might go and knock on the
Speaker 1: door just like that. But the journalists or the attorney
Speaker 1: might not take that approach. They might say, oh, that's
Speaker 1: that's not the way we would do it by the book.
Speaker 1: But pain is like, Okay, let me call this guy up,
Speaker 1: let me recordious call you know, so as things that
Speaker 1: we would just all do as a listener if we
Speaker 1: were hosting our own podcast. I think that's a huge
Speaker 1: part of it. So you're saying that I should buy
Speaker 1: a thesaurus. Basically, yeah, definitely got it. I was just
Speaker 1: gonna say, there's there's a clip at the beginning I
Speaker 1: think is it episode five, and it's a really frustrating
Speaker 1: to three minute um interlude of all the things you
Speaker 1: had to go through to actually connect with Wayne on
Speaker 1: the call. And you know, some people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: how could you do that? That is yeah, you're like, okay,
Speaker 1: well it's a little long, but you're like, I knew that.
Speaker 1: But actually, to be honest, the whole thing took about
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. And that was about two and a half minutes.
Speaker 1: I kept treating a DOWNSA, this is a little too long.
Speaker 1: About wanted you to be like, good greed, this is ridiculous.
Speaker 1: You'll hear that confirmation number. I was like, this is
Speaker 1: that is That's the longest number I've ever been read.
Speaker 1: Someone has to hear this. It reminded me of the
Speaker 1: old dial up days when you're waiting for the modem.
Speaker 1: Exactly this is what you have to do. I thought
Speaker 1: I was intriguing. I was like, this is what everyone
Speaker 1: does when they talk to someone in ja illness is insane. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then I mean not to get too intellectual about it,
Speaker 1: but um, like, wow, the prison system and everything about
Speaker 1: this bureaucratic nightmare is broken. Um, and look what you
Speaker 1: have to do to just talk to someone. And I
Speaker 1: just just putting it out there for people who observe
Speaker 1: and frankly get a little frustrated themselves as they listen to.
Speaker 1: That's the whole put you there, that's the whole point.
Speaker 1: So you did go and knock on doors and show
Speaker 1: up at people's houses. How did you build the report
Speaker 1: to get them to talk to you? To be honest,
Speaker 1: I didn't really have one. I didn't think I did
Speaker 1: at least I just just called people and said, hey,
Speaker 1: you don't know me, I want to talk basically, But no,
Speaker 1: I mean, to be honest, it's a very tragic story.
Speaker 1: So depend on who you're talking to. You're always sensitive
Speaker 1: to who this person is and how they're related to
Speaker 1: this case and this story. You can't ever forget that.
Speaker 1: It's the most important part of this. So if you're
Speaker 1: always keeping that in mind, and you're trying to be
Speaker 1: a people person and just find a way to relate
Speaker 1: to somebody, then most of the time it works. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, don't let your own voice get in the
Speaker 1: way of someone being able to tell you a story.
Speaker 1: And I think especially if you if you listen to
Speaker 1: episode one, I think you're barely in that episode, and
Speaker 1: it's it's because that was intentional. Yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's I've seen some press on this where yes, we
Speaker 1: talked to FBI agents and a p D officers and
Speaker 1: television anchors, but actually just talking and of course um
Speaker 1: you know, um families, um, of the victims and such,
Speaker 1: but also just people who grow up at that time
Speaker 1: and listening to those people. I think it's just super important,
Speaker 1: and it's just you know, hey, I grew up in
Speaker 1: this neighborhood and this is how I felt and then.
Speaker 1: And they don't have to be anyone that is of
Speaker 1: a high position in the city or or we're involved
Speaker 1: in the case. We just want to know how you feel.
Speaker 1: That's super important to just listen every single interview. You
Speaker 1: hear every single one. Meredith and I are both there
Speaker 1: in person for every single one of them, and I
Speaker 1: often intentionally just remove myself from it. So this person
Speaker 1: is telling their story, it's not my story, and I
Speaker 1: just think it sounds better that way. It's more natural. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not trying to be a part of
Speaker 1: the conversation with them. I don't know anything about what
Speaker 1: they're telling me. You know, I'm hearing it for the
Speaker 1: first time, like you guys are as they're telling me.
Speaker 1: So I'm not trying to, you know, broadcast a conversation
Speaker 1: with somebody. I'm trying to ask the right questions so
Speaker 1: they can kind of take the stage themselves. And then
Speaker 1: what's your process of putting it together? Because now you
Speaker 1: were there for it, hearing it the first time, and
Speaker 1: then obviously when you're adding it, you're hearing it over
Speaker 1: and over again. How do you not get too close
Speaker 1: and actually kind of bring yourself back to that moment
Speaker 1: of hearing it for the first time. Um, as you're
Speaker 1: listening to it, as you do the interview, you kind
Speaker 1: of go, oh, yep, that's a that's pretty important, or
Speaker 1: that's a good part, or that's a really interesting lot
Speaker 1: line that has to go in there. So stuff like that.
Speaker 1: You kind of just trying to remember that or take notes.
Speaker 1: But then when it comes down to the interview, you
Speaker 1: have to kind of go back and forth. When you're
Speaker 1: editing from going from thinking super objectively and like broad
Speaker 1: about it and then being very hyper focused on one
Speaker 1: little thing about the way this actually sounds, not what
Speaker 1: the word means, but does this sound funky? Is this
Speaker 1: sound okay? And then you know, does this story chronologically
Speaker 1: makes sense? And then should I interject myself here and
Speaker 1: give a little further explanation on that or should I
Speaker 1: just you know, put this here so it makes sense
Speaker 1: to come right after that? And the goal for me
Speaker 1: is to the less narration that's needed, the better podcast
Speaker 1: edit it is. If it can go five minutes without
Speaker 1: me talking, that means that it all made enough sense
Speaker 1: for you to sit back and hear people just talking
Speaker 1: and you know what's going on. I think that's pretty
Speaker 1: hard to do. So if you can do that, you're
Speaker 1: doing a pretty good job. Yeah you're great, Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: Donalds are great. That's good. Yeah, that's that's sauces right there,
Speaker 1: and the and the edit and in not getting in
Speaker 1: your own way. You know, the worst thing you can
Speaker 1: do is over talk if you're interviewing someone, because they
Speaker 1: could be about to say something great and then here
Speaker 1: you come bumbling all over the place and interjecting what
Speaker 1: you want them to say. Are trying to get to
Speaker 1: the point fashion than that they you know, than the
Speaker 1: pace that they're going to get to it eventually. At
Speaker 1: so I think, yeah, just sitting back and letting people
Speaker 1: talk and then you know, being able to pull those
Speaker 1: little things out, that's what You'll have a questions sometimes
Speaker 1: and I'll just sit there five seconds of like awkward
Speaker 1: silence with somebody and I'm just like, and they're like
Speaker 1: they always talk, so and they just start filling the
Speaker 1: air with something because they feel obligated to you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. It's like it felt weird to me
Speaker 1: at first, just kind of just you know someone's gonna
Speaker 1: eventually start of talking about Like it's not like a standoff.
Speaker 1: It's more like a you know, I'm not I'll just
Speaker 1: be waiting a little bit longer than someone else might
Speaker 1: be waiting, and then before I'm about to talk, they
Speaker 1: start talking. It's actually a great negotiation tactic, just so
Speaker 1: you know myself, you can save that for later, because
Speaker 1: it's not as easy as it sounds like. I do
Speaker 1: some like pre interviews where I'll just record a conversation
Speaker 1: with someone to see what are they gonna give us
Speaker 1: if if pain is gonna you know, talk to them
Speaker 1: or not so I try to hear kind of what
Speaker 1: they've done in their interviews and mimic that strategy. And
Speaker 1: it's really not easy because you get into it. You
Speaker 1: want them to tell you what's next. Want a conversational.
Speaker 1: You don't want to sit there and just not say anything.
Speaker 1: They're like, are you there are things? Okay? You want
Speaker 1: to be engaged enough and just find a little moments
Speaker 1: like yeah, just like be there with them in the conversation,
Speaker 1: but not talk over them or steer it too much.
Speaker 1: It just takes practice pretty much. And I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: you know, part of um um how stuff works and
Speaker 1: tenderfoot working together. I think our approach with creators is
Speaker 1: to kind of let them have the floor and let
Speaker 1: it let them do get their way and so um
Speaker 1: it gets a little hairy at the end as we're
Speaker 1: trying to put an episode to bed and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: And that's absolutely okay, um, But I just I don't,
Speaker 1: like I was talking about earlier about like there being
Speaker 1: a template for how you do a show. The last
Speaker 1: thing that we want to do is tell Pain and
Speaker 1: Meredith and Donald like, this is the way you need
Speaker 1: to do the show, because this is the way that
Speaker 1: House to Works has always done that show. And so
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that we don't add, you know, certain
Speaker 1: riggers and discipline about production and research and kind of
Speaker 1: all that stuff. That's why we're working together. But I
Speaker 1: stand firm and saying like we need to let creators
Speaker 1: tell their story and every one of them can be
Speaker 1: completely different and have different personalities, and and that the
Speaker 1: whole thing, and that's the whole point is like really
Speaker 1: letting them run. So episode nine tonight, Episode ten, which
Speaker 1: is the final episode, how do you feel about it wrapping? Now? Wow,
Speaker 1: I need to go to the beach or something. Um.
Speaker 1: I feel it's been like the longest feeling ten weeks ever. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't even know how I feel about it. To
Speaker 1: be honest, I'm still will like in it right now,
Speaker 1: so I don't really even know. But um, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: happy that people have liked this podcast and have learned
Speaker 1: a lot. And um, I was pretty nervous about this
Speaker 1: project because I knew it was big, and I thought
Speaker 1: that it was another thing that it was just too
Speaker 1: big for me. I thought that maybe I'm not the
Speaker 1: right guy for this. You know, I actually thought those
Speaker 1: things before I did it. But UM, you know, I
Speaker 1: put a lot of effort into doing it the right
Speaker 1: way and I think in a lot of ways it
Speaker 1: paid off. So UM, you know, I'm I'm proud of it.
Speaker 1: I think that the team House of Works, Donald Meredith,
Speaker 1: everyone in the House of Works did a great job.
Speaker 1: And UM, you know, I'm excited to see what comes next.
Speaker 1: I'm also excited to have a complete project out there
Speaker 1: one through tin and so you know, we can with
Speaker 1: every listener I meet, I can have a full conversation
Speaker 1: about the whole thing. That's great. Yeah, and now it's
Speaker 1: time to um actually talk to some of your listeners
Speaker 1: and open things that and a question in the back. Hi,
Speaker 1: my name is Amila from Tokyo. I don't know you said, uh,
Speaker 1: it's just the story. But what percentage is funct and
Speaker 1: what percentage fish? And do you think and oh how
Speaker 1: do you uh making effort to uh uh two take
Speaker 1: a fucked mhm. Um. So All Up and Vanished and
Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster are both factual podcasts. I've never made anything
Speaker 1: up for stage anything or anything like that. UM, so
Speaker 1: all the stuff you're hearing is is legit and real. Um.
Speaker 1: I like to take these real life moments and build
Speaker 1: them up to give you the same link that I
Speaker 1: felt when when it was happening to me or anyone
Speaker 1: else on our team who was telling the story, or
Speaker 1: when we're going back in time to recreate a moment
Speaker 1: that happens somewhere else. So, UM, you know, it's all
Speaker 1: factual stuff, and you know we're proud of that, and
Speaker 1: you know just what happens that with both podcasts. Now
Speaker 1: we've dug up some crazy stories and UM, we just
Speaker 1: choose to present them the way we do. So sometimes
Speaker 1: you might think this that this isn't real, but it
Speaker 1: is so. And there's another point of that, which is, um,
Speaker 1: you know, oh my gosh, down the conspiracy rat, you know,
Speaker 1: rabbit hole here. I have to tell you that most
Speaker 1: of the stories that we are actually putting out there,
Speaker 1: and even some of the stories you haven't heard, they've
Speaker 1: been talked about for thirty or forty years and we're
Speaker 1: presenting them back to the listeners. So this is actually
Speaker 1: why this case continues to be so confusing and I think,
Speaker 1: um so divided is the fact that these theories, whether
Speaker 1: they were put out there by Wayne, whether other people
Speaker 1: in the kind of the connected universe of this case,
Speaker 1: the whole point is to actually say, listen, people have
Speaker 1: been talking about all these little elements for years, and
Speaker 1: here they are. Here they are, and again, make up
Speaker 1: your mind. That is not us with an agenda trying
Speaker 1: to push conspiracies. It is us actually pushing those whatever
Speaker 1: you want to call them, up to the surface and
Speaker 1: presenting them to you the listeners. Also on the conspiracy
Speaker 1: Um conversation, I think we're not just pushing like a
Speaker 1: crack pot conspiracy theory that one guy thought up. If
Speaker 1: it's crack pot, millions of people actually believe that, so
Speaker 1: it would be it wouldn't be authentic if we didn't
Speaker 1: present like crazy things that millions of people believe. So
Speaker 1: we're we're not pushing those but it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: our duty to kind of tell the truth about all
Speaker 1: these different opinions and what people actually believe, and then
Speaker 1: try to break down, Okay, why does this person think
Speaker 1: that way? I think that's what hopefully we've been able
Speaker 1: to do that to the podcast, where if you hear
Speaker 1: something this sounds crazy, we present what drove that person?
Speaker 1: Are these millions of people to think this way? Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm all a long time? How stuff works listener. Um,
Speaker 1: there's a ton of new podcasts from House Touff Works
Speaker 1: right now, a lot of different, uh than what they
Speaker 1: were before. Is like ethnically ambiguous culture kings that sort
Speaker 1: of thing. I was wondering if you to talk about
Speaker 1: like the impetus or reasons why how stuff works sort
Speaker 1: of decided to diversify a lot more. That's a great question.
Speaker 1: Thanks for being a supporter. I would say, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: we've we actually as a come. I won't bore you
Speaker 1: with the business details, but we had the ability to
Speaker 1: to raise some money that allows that podcast business to
Speaker 1: be its own standalone business. And frankly, a lot of
Speaker 1: our creative ambitions cannot be realized. And so I think
Speaker 1: at last content we we saw something around thirty new
Speaker 1: shows in some level of production where we only had
Speaker 1: about twelve the fifteen shows total over the years. And
Speaker 1: so you are north Star has always been around curiosity
Speaker 1: and that will continue to be our core focus. But
Speaker 1: we're also just podcast fans too, and um, we want
Speaker 1: to Um, we want to cover lots of things like
Speaker 1: comedy and true crime and kind of fill those gaps. Um,
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into some fiction. We're gonna get into
Speaker 1: to some health and wellness and some other big categories UM.
Speaker 1: And we just also just didn't want it to be
Speaker 1: you know, UM just the same UM voices. We I
Speaker 1: think if you look at UM a snapshot of our employees, UM,
Speaker 1: they're starting to reflect the kind of shows that we
Speaker 1: have to. So we want more women, we want different
Speaker 1: types of UM UM across the board with diversity. And
Speaker 1: I think there's a hung or across each of those
Speaker 1: UM those groups for more programming like this. So you're
Speaker 1: gonna you're gonna see a lot more from us this year,
Speaker 1: and we're really excited about it. Are they all moving
Speaker 1: into your building? No? I mean part of this is, UM,
Speaker 1: you know, we're not going to be able to do
Speaker 1: every bit of this ourselves, and so we really want
Speaker 1: to work with the best creators out there. And I
Speaker 1: think you know, Painton Donald and Meredith and the Tenderfoot
Speaker 1: team is really UM got us thinking about, UM, how
Speaker 1: do how do we how do we do our own stuff?
Speaker 1: But then how do we also UM tell stories that
Speaker 1: we could never naturally do by ourselves and and kind
Speaker 1: of go in places that we've never been. We had
Speaker 1: never done a true crime anything until this, it was
Speaker 1: a lot of shows that you guys are familiar with,
Speaker 1: and it was new to us and a little bit daunting.
Speaker 1: And for one last question. Hi, my name is Lisa Paint.
Speaker 1: I know you're trying to go to the beach, but
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what's next and how often you get approached
Speaker 1: by people with ideas and how you decide you know
Speaker 1: what your next project is going to be. Well, what's
Speaker 1: next is up in Advantage season two before anything else,
Speaker 1: which will be a new case and I've chose that.
Speaker 1: I've chosen the case and it's not in Georgia, so
Speaker 1: I can say about it now, but it's gonna come
Speaker 1: out um summer, like late midsummer, So that'll be the
Speaker 1: first thing up. We're also working on up in Advantage,
Speaker 1: the TV series on Oxygen, which we're UM really foreign
Speaker 1: development on and we'll be shooting some stuff in a
Speaker 1: couple of months and so hopefully that'll come out within
Speaker 1: the year, and also some stuff with a Letta Monster
Speaker 1: as far as UM possibly doing some visual stuff for
Speaker 1: that as well, and then they'll eventually be another podcast
Speaker 1: UM from me Tenderfoot UM in the same vein as
Speaker 1: these possibly UM there's also other arenas I want to
Speaker 1: jump into it, or other genres as just say uh.
Speaker 1: In the podcast world, I want to jump into some
Speaker 1: being fiction as well. Um So, I don't really know
Speaker 1: what that other project is that you're talking about, but
Speaker 1: I do have some awesome ideas and it's it's it's
Speaker 1: brewings right now. So pop, that answered your question. Great well,
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you Payne. I know you've been traveling
Speaker 1: and trying to finish the last episode, so we really
Speaker 1: appreciate you being here. It's done, done, one am tonight.
Speaker 1: Jason on the way out to get us phone because
Speaker 1: it's on there. Thank you, Jason, this guy, thank you.
Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by tune In, which
Speaker 1: brings together all of the live, sports, music, news and
Speaker 1: podcasts do you love, original, live and on demand audio
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