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Speaker 1: And Atlanta. Another body was this covering today at Police

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Speaker 1: Task Force headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered,

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Speaker 1: one missing. We do not know the person or persons

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Speaker 1: whatever responsible. Therefore, we do not have the moody from

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Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV and how stiff works in Atlanta. Like eleven

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Speaker 1: other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was a fixynor.

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Speaker 1: Atlanta was unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps

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Speaker 1: on killing. This is Atlanta monster. That's a great crowd.

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Speaker 1: They're ready. Uh it's ten pm. Do you know where

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Speaker 1: your children are? We have kind of a young audience here.

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Speaker 1: How many of you remember hearing that as a kid

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Speaker 1: growing up? And did you know the story behind it?

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Speaker 1: I know, I for one, kind of felt like it

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Speaker 1: was strange and I didn't really understand, but I knew

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Speaker 1: it was bad, but I didn't know what the true

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Speaker 1: story was behind it. And as we get in today,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to hear kind of how you came together, um,

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Speaker 1: from your two sides of how stuff works and Tenderfoot

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Speaker 1: TV to bring the story to life. Well, it actually

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Speaker 1: starts with you, guys, because was it email me first?

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Speaker 1: Or how that work? It was it was really weird. Um,

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Speaker 1: believe it or not, We're in the same building in

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Speaker 1: Atlanta and we didn't know it. Um, And through some

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Speaker 1: circumstances I found out and I said, hey, I reached

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Speaker 1: out to Paint and said, let's come on down and

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Speaker 1: have coffee and some So Painton and Donald came down,

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Speaker 1: and uh, we just started talking and I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: up and vanishes really great, and I think the next

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Speaker 1: project that we should do together is on this Atlanta

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Speaker 1: child murders case that I was nine ten years old

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Speaker 1: at the time. Really fascinating, even though I didn't live

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Speaker 1: anywhere near Atlanta. And they looked at me like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we talked about that two weeks ago, and uh, and

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Speaker 1: we kind of looked at each other and said, well,

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Speaker 1: then we have to do it. Yeah. I mean he

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Speaker 1: did to take it one step, you know, back, one

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Speaker 1: step further. The reason we were even in the same

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Speaker 1: building is because we're looking for office space. And then

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Speaker 1: pain was like, I think how stuff works is in

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Speaker 1: the same buildings. Were like, okay, well that's he was

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Speaker 1: the deal. Listen the real podcast. Yeah, yeah, the truth

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Speaker 1: comes out on the tune in stage. So basically, you

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Speaker 1: were hunting down down right. So but um, yeah, So

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Speaker 1: you know when we sat down with Jason and he

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Speaker 1: presented the idea of a lot of child murders to us,

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Speaker 1: you know, we had literally just talked about it weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and it was something that Paine hadn't heard about before. Um,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't even born when it was happening, when the

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Speaker 1: when the merger were taking place. Um, I was about

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Speaker 1: four years old, all the way in California, that's two

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Speaker 1: thousand miles away from where those tragedies were. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're happening. But I still remember hearing about it, and

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Speaker 1: UM remember those commercials, not not really understanding what's back

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Speaker 1: of those commercials were about, but just growing up being

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Speaker 1: black and um, just having this effect the black community

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Speaker 1: with the black black victims. Um. And and eventually they

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Speaker 1: you know, caught a black serial killer. Um. It was

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Speaker 1: something that we just I just heard about all the time.

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Speaker 1: So we're looking for something to do a new podcast

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Speaker 1: before the seconds even up Advantaged and I said, you know, Paint,

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Speaker 1: have you heard this before? And I sent him and

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Speaker 1: send it to him and he was intrigued, and you know,

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Speaker 1: just went from there and Jason, what was it about?

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Speaker 1: Working with Payne and Donald that you an aside from

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Speaker 1: them stalking outside your building. Yeah, I didn't have a

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Speaker 1: choice at that point, you know. I think, Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: House Works has been doing podcasts for about ten years,

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Speaker 1: you know, and UM, what I appreciate about podcasts, um,

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Speaker 1: and I hope this stay is true, is that there's

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Speaker 1: not kind of a cookie cut cutter template to how

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Speaker 1: things should be done. And what I really really appreciated

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Speaker 1: about Up and Advantaged is it was there was kind

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Speaker 1: of no rules and so so pain you know, came

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Speaker 1: from filmmaking. Um, he had definite ideas around kind of

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Speaker 1: what it meant to tell his story. And I loved,

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Speaker 1: you know, the layered approach to things, using sound, using

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Speaker 1: music for emotion, um, you know, frankly, kind of being

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Speaker 1: fearless about it. Where, UM, I feel like we don't

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Speaker 1: do that enough in the industry, where let's let's tell

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Speaker 1: a big story, let's talk to everyone that we can

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Speaker 1: and see where it goes, and you might be surprised

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Speaker 1: where that story might end up. And I think Up

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Speaker 1: and Vantage is a perfect example of if you're persistent

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Speaker 1: and you embed yourself in the community and you talk

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Speaker 1: to people and they just know that you're someone they

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Speaker 1: can talk to. Things can happen. And I think, um,

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Speaker 1: that was just really interesting to me and um and

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Speaker 1: and it just speaks to telling big stories. And I

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Speaker 1: think that this industry is just right for you know,

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Speaker 1: early on it was serial it was s town, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Think there should be twenty or thirty or forty of

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Speaker 1: these each year where these kind of monumental layered stories

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Speaker 1: with you know, kind of so many twists and turns,

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Speaker 1: but also just the layers of that story are just

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Speaker 1: super interesting to me. And so I really admired all

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Speaker 1: those qualities. And I've kind of felt like the combination

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Speaker 1: of our efforts would um would kind of be a

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Speaker 1: power house story if we really put our heads together.

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Speaker 1: And I think I think we've done that now. This

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Speaker 1: story in particular, no one was telling. There haven't been movies,

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Speaker 1: there haven't been kind of the same the There's been

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Speaker 1: some books in writing, but there just hasn't been the

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Speaker 1: same kind of continuous examination that there have been for

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Speaker 1: things like The Zodiac Killer. How did you feel about

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Speaker 1: that in terms of coming into it and the approach

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Speaker 1: that you took, but also knowing that there was so

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Speaker 1: much hesitation from other people jumping into it. It really

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Speaker 1: that was one of the main you know, motivations behind

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Speaker 1: us wanting to do it was that Paine never heard

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Speaker 1: of it. He grew up in Kennesaw. I was after

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Speaker 1: you know, it happened. But you know, plenty of people

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Speaker 1: didn't grow up during the era of you know, Zodiac

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Speaker 1: or you know these other serial killers that have been

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Speaker 1: you know ingrained in our mind through TV series and

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Speaker 1: books and all these different um adaptations of movies, but

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Speaker 1: this was something where it was kind of forgotten, and

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Speaker 1: you know, doing some digging within the podcast, it's there's

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Speaker 1: there's a reason why, um. I think initially, you know,

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Speaker 1: these were all poor black victims and just historically you're

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Speaker 1: not going to get the same attention being poor number

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Speaker 1: one and then being a minority number two. So that's

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons. But also, you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of political stuff involved with this um with these murders,

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Speaker 1: and it was something that Atlanta wanted to forget about.

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Speaker 1: So within the investigation, you know, we um uncovered some

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Speaker 1: of that stuff and just had a better understanding ourselves

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Speaker 1: of why you know, I was hearing about it, but

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Speaker 1: we took it upon our I'll just say, look, if

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Speaker 1: you've never heard about this, it's important and you should

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Speaker 1: know about it. So we want to just tell that

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Speaker 1: story and read. The ultimate goal was, look if we

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Speaker 1: can bring the millennial generation who's never heard of it

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Speaker 1: and the black community who's familiar with it, but they're

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Speaker 1: not really um having maybe heard the entire story because

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Speaker 1: there's been so much rumor and um, so many conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories throughout the years, which happens when you don't have,

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Speaker 1: you know, a platform to tell to speak truth from.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to bring these two groups in the

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Speaker 1: middle somewhere to meet and just have a conversation about race,

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Speaker 1: about um, you know, the criminal justice system. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's what we've been able to do. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was just gonna say, Um, there was a little bit

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Speaker 1: of the perception early on was I don't know. We

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Speaker 1: we got a lot of comments from people that say, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's no way that Pain couldn't have heard of this case. No, No,

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Speaker 1: he's just making he's just he's making that up for

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Speaker 1: a story. And I gotta tell you, Um, the two

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Speaker 1: crowds of people that have actually given us tons of feedback,

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Speaker 1: one has been the people that were alive at the time,

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Speaker 1: and they remembered it, but they didn't really remember it

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Speaker 1: when psychics and all this crazy stuff happened. And then

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Speaker 1: literally a whole generation of people that says, wait, so

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Speaker 1: twenty eight African American kids were killed and I never

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Speaker 1: knew about this, And I think, you know, pain is

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Speaker 1: a lot like our audience in terms of like, how

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Speaker 1: could such a big tragedy happen? And there never kind

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Speaker 1: of be a big stage to tell this like some

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Speaker 1: of the other serial killers, um in our history of America.

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Speaker 1: And that was kind of a surprise for us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I found out pretty quickly the born eight seven there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of people like me, I just turned

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Speaker 1: thirty this year that had never heard of this at all,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, it's such a big tragedy that

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Speaker 1: affected not only the city of Atlanta but just the

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Speaker 1: whole nation that I found it interesting that there was

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Speaker 1: others out there like myself who had never heard of it.

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Speaker 1: And that was one of the reasons that I chose

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Speaker 1: to to continue researching this story and to make it

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Speaker 1: into a podcast, and not only researching, by creating and

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Speaker 1: producing it up to the very last minute before published.

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Speaker 1: So how many people here are caught up? And are

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Speaker 1: you all waiting to go home tonight for the drop

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Speaker 1: of the final episode. Well, we have a surprise for

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Speaker 1: you because we have a preview clip of the final episode.

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Speaker 1: We do. I'm kidding, we do, we do. Pay do

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Speaker 1: you mind just setting it up for us? So this

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Speaker 1: is um Dale Russell. It's actually a preview for tonight's episode.

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Speaker 1: There's one episode next week which will be ten, which

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Speaker 1: is the finale. So it's a nice episode, episode nine.

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Speaker 1: It's called the Trial, and this is Dale Russell. He's

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Speaker 1: a Fox five Atlanta reporter and he's talking about during

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Speaker 1: the trial when Wayne blew up on the stand and

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Speaker 1: it kind of changed the trajectory of why or just

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Speaker 1: how he's How he was convicted in the first place

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Speaker 1: is one of the major points. So this is him

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Speaker 1: talking about it. They had a breaking They had to

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Speaker 1: show the jury a different sign of Wayne Williams. They

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Speaker 1: hand to let the jury see that this unassuming guy

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Speaker 1: sitting in front of them had this other sign to

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Speaker 1: his personality, and they got it. Wayne Williams was not

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Speaker 1: the mild Mannard witness we saw the last two days.

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Speaker 1: He was irritable, arrogant assistant d A. Jack Mallard had

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Speaker 1: him right where he wanted him. He finally broke, and

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Speaker 1: he snapped at the prosecutor. He called FBI agents goons,

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Speaker 1: didn't answer some of the prosecutor's questions and said his

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Speaker 1: own defense attorney Mary Welcome, forced him to give an

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Speaker 1: interview for money. You want the real Wayne Williams. When

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Speaker 1: you got him right here as an observer, he was electric. Mallard,

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Speaker 1: Mr Williams, you've been eating up all this worldwide publicity,

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Speaker 1: haven't you, Williams, No, I haven't. I'm tired of sitting here.

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Speaker 1: You're telling these folks I fit the profile, Mallard. Wasn't

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Speaker 1: these murders your center stage? Williams, you must be a

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Speaker 1: cool I distinctly remember writing down I've got it here

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Speaker 1: for you, looking up at somebody I don't remember who,

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Speaker 1: making eye contact and looking at the edge O. They

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Speaker 1: were like, oh my gosh, here we go, Here we go.

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Speaker 1: So I think a lot of people are wondering about

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Speaker 1: that first conversation. How can you talk to us, like

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Speaker 1: how that unfolded with Wayne? With Wayne, how you felt

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Speaker 1: about that? Um, it was weird to be honest, Um,

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Speaker 1: it was I think you were in the room, and

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Speaker 1: you were in the room and I was like be quiet,

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Speaker 1: like one of those things. Um, And I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what to expect. I was being introduced by Dwayne. Not

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Speaker 1: to be confused with Wayne and or me pain yes,

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Speaker 1: but um yeah, I was. I just thought it was

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Speaker 1: super weird. But um, he was very nice and he

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Speaker 1: was charismatic, and he was easy to I would say,

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Speaker 1: talk to you, but listen to at least. Um. It

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Speaker 1: was hard for me to kind of reel in and

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Speaker 1: it's sort of give any direction to the conversation like

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Speaker 1: I usually do in an interview or something. But UM, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just found it very interesting. And it's really it's

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Speaker 1: been the same since then. It has not wavered at all.

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Speaker 1: He's He's the same the whole time, which is also

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Speaker 1: very interesting. So you've never seen that side of him,

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Speaker 1: the getting really agitated, And I haven't know, And I'm

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Speaker 1: just curious, um, in terms of you are you're actively

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Speaker 1: producing the show, as you're talking to him, as people

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Speaker 1: are reaching out to you, how do you balance that

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Speaker 1: kind of following where their story is going, but also

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Speaker 1: needing to lead it and push it it is UM

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Speaker 1: extremely difficult to say the least, actually believe it or not.

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Speaker 1: This is how difficult it is. On the way here,

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Speaker 1: I was listening to episode nine on my phone in

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Speaker 1: the elevator to get here, to make sure that there

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Speaker 1: was no mistakes in it. UM. And like that clip

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Speaker 1: you heard this morning, I made that this morning actually

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta. So like, this is not how you should

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Speaker 1: do your podcast at all. Please don't do this to yourself.

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Speaker 1: I agree with that, but if you do, call me,

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Speaker 1: I'll try to help you out. But seriously, it's UM.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy because it opens the door to so many

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Speaker 1: things because you know, a lot of the findings we

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Speaker 1: have and some revelations coming in episode nine and ten

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Speaker 1: have been because the podcast got so big and allowed

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Speaker 1: for us to find new things, new information, new people.

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Speaker 1: So in a lot of ways, it's very helpful. But

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Speaker 1: you still have to build a story arc and and

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Speaker 1: map it all out, and there's so many little technical

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Speaker 1: things that make a podcast good and you still have

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Speaker 1: to do those things and they take a lot of time.

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Speaker 1: So doing that and talking to Wayne in real time

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Speaker 1: and going here and going there, it's it's very difficult.

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Speaker 1: You have time for nothing, else. Um, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that's a thank you to Meredith. You're yes, and if yes,

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Speaker 1: thank you Meredith for putting up with all that. I was,

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Speaker 1: I was, how many interviews? Like I look at the

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Speaker 1: dropbox and I see all these interviews, all these files,

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Speaker 1: and I was I was trying to count how many

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Speaker 1: interviews with Wayne or clips? It's it's thirty forty maybe more.

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Speaker 1: What is it? I don't know. There was so many

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Speaker 1: folders in there that I just made a folder that

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Speaker 1: that's called stuff That's less important, and I started dumping

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Speaker 1: stuff in there that I was like, that's not important,

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Speaker 1: that's not because there was so many folders I couldn't

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Speaker 1: even find like one thing beca. It's probably as far

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Speaker 1: as Wayne goes, at least thirty plus calls in there,

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Speaker 1: and um, even some as recent as a few days ago.

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Speaker 1: So it's, uh, we're excited to kind of come to

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Speaker 1: a conclusion. I know a lot of people are during

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Speaker 1: what they're listening, They're like, what's the point, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? Well, the first point was, you know, have

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Speaker 1: you heard this story before? Do you know all the

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Speaker 1: details to even care about how this could in the

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Speaker 1: first place. I think that we're there now obviously, and

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Speaker 1: so in episode nine, not to give too much away,

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Speaker 1: we kind of explore, well, why was Wayne convicted in

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Speaker 1: the first place? He was? So, what are those bad

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Speaker 1: parts of Wayne William's true or not? What convinced the

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Speaker 1: jury that he was get t And then from there

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Speaker 1: we kind of end up in this new place for

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Speaker 1: the first time, and we concluded an episode ten. I

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Speaker 1: want to give too much away, but that's where we are.

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Speaker 1: I think this room really wants you to give too

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Speaker 1: much away what we want? Well, what do you mean

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Speaker 1: maybe after the microphones turn off? Um? So, I think

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Speaker 1: what what is so wonderful is to see how many

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Speaker 1: people are listening, how many people you have now exposed

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Speaker 1: to this story. How did you think about the audience

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Speaker 1: that you were trying to reach and how did that

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Speaker 1: guide the decisions you made and either the production or

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Speaker 1: how you released it. I think the production. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's there's different sides of this, you know, and such

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Speaker 1: a polarizing case. Everyone picks aside and they stick to it.

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Speaker 1: He's guilty of everything, or he's innocent, he did nothing wrong,

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Speaker 1: and you've got to find out how do you find

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Speaker 1: an audience within there that's willing to even hear this

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Speaker 1: story from a neutral perspective, and you know, we get

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Speaker 1: a couple of different things. I mean, I think pain

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Speaker 1: being the host as someone who didn't experience it growing

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Speaker 1: up as someone who's a different race than the killer

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Speaker 1: and the the convicted killer and the victims automatically opens

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Speaker 1: it up. So it's bigger than just a black story,

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Speaker 1: because I think it's important that everyone knows the story,

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Speaker 1: not just one race or another. It's it's the tragedy

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Speaker 1: that you know needs to be exposed so and itself.

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Speaker 1: How we were able to do it, I think UM

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Speaker 1: brought in a more broad audience and then even from

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Speaker 1: a from a marketing perspective, UM you know, we wanted

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Speaker 1: to reach people who weren't traditional podcast listeners. You know,

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Speaker 1: we did billboards in Atlanta, we did trailers, you know,

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Speaker 1: visual trailers before we ran UM TV commercials of that

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Speaker 1: trailer on TV one, just targeting a you know, forty

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Speaker 1: and up urban audience. So you know, we had to

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Speaker 1: identify who we wanted to listen to this and it

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Speaker 1: was you know, we kind of knew what that was,

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Speaker 1: but we knew we had to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: actually go get them. So we you know, we did

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Speaker 1: some things that most people don't do when when in

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Speaker 1: podcast promotion. So I think I think it worked and

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Speaker 1: I think it left an impression in Atlanta. We knew

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Speaker 1: that the people in Atlanta have heard this story, but they,

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Speaker 1: you know, were intrigued in too interested in it. So

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Speaker 1: the billboard just had the mug shot that if you

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Speaker 1: were around, you remembered that mug shot, and that's what

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Speaker 1: the cover is. So when when that was upon billboards,

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Speaker 1: so many people have come to me and said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I saw this on Spring Street or on Ponce and

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Speaker 1: it intrigued them to usually hadn't listened, it was on

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Speaker 1: their mind to go and listen. And those and those

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Speaker 1: billboards were right in the same parts where actually a

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Speaker 1: lot of these kids were found. Um where we're in

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Speaker 1: in the Atlanta where in midtown Atlanta, um and kind

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Speaker 1: of in a what two to five mile radius is

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Speaker 1: where most of those kids first started disappearing. And it's

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Speaker 1: it's very humbling when you hear a clip about someone

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Speaker 1: who called into a pastor. I think it was episode

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Speaker 1: or episode episode two or three, and I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: Ponce daileone Avenue We're like, that's our address. The guy

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Speaker 1: was down the street at a bar when he called,

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Speaker 1: and it's just it really brings it home. UM. I

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Speaker 1: love what Donald said about bringing in new listeners. Um.

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Speaker 1: Every part of what we did we wanted to kind

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Speaker 1: of do something big and different. So it wasn't just

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Speaker 1: the story. It was we actually hired an actor and

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Speaker 1: shot some scenes. We did, uh throwing a um what's

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Speaker 1: his name? What was the name of the body, rescue Randy,

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Speaker 1: rescue Randy over the bridge, and just trying to kind of, um,

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Speaker 1: just do things differently. We dropped four audio trailers or

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Speaker 1: teasers before to build up interest, so kind of UM,

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Speaker 1: build that buzz, and I think it actually drove people

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Speaker 1: nuts because they couldn't stand it anymore. And then UM

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Speaker 1: and four video video trailers that would play out in

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Speaker 1: different mediums and kind of educate people. And if they

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Speaker 1: saw it, they would say, wait, what what was that?

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Speaker 1: Like There's shots of UM pulling kids out of a

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Speaker 1: river and a little boy that's scared of going outside

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Speaker 1: at night, and it just it instantly makes you think,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what this is, but I have to

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Speaker 1: listen to this right now. And so UM that was

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Speaker 1: a combination of having audio teams, video teams, archives, the

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Speaker 1: whole thing to tell a big story. And and that's

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Speaker 1: just going big. Yeah. A lot of people thought it

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Speaker 1: was a you know, television series or something because it

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Speaker 1: was high quality of visuals and re enactments that we use.

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Speaker 1: And when you see it on TV or you see

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Speaker 1: it on the internet and it looks like it looks good,

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Speaker 1: we don't want them to think of it as a podcast.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know what that is or you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't listen to podcasts. We want to be good

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Speaker 1: enough to where you'll go anywhere to find it. And

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, um, I think we did. We

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Speaker 1: did that, and I think it's still growing and kind

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Speaker 1: of we want to just set the bar for like

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Speaker 1: how you promote important projects and podcasts. They're they're growing there.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're big and they should be treated as such,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean with the marketing and you know,

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Speaker 1: just a little more innovation from the promotions and marketing side.

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Speaker 1: Now you mentioned archives. Jason and I have a shared

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Speaker 1: love of American history and primary source materials. Um, I'd

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Speaker 1: love for you to talk about how much that influenced

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Speaker 1: the story and I think a big thank you has

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Speaker 1: to go out to the archivists who kept all this

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Speaker 1: material for you to then dig through. It is Jason's

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Speaker 1: expertise here, it's it's it's interesting backstory. So, um, the

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Speaker 1: University of Georgia has been holding onto ws TVs video archives.

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Speaker 1: It's down in a vault in a basement in University

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Speaker 1: of Georgia, which is what about an hour or so

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Speaker 1: outside of Atlanta and Athens, Georgia. And uh, they've just

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Speaker 1: had all these original they were video clips and they

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Speaker 1: have a series of researchers and archivists that we're waiting

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Speaker 1: one day for someone to show up and want to

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Speaker 1: tap into this and it was us, And um, I

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Speaker 1: just I think it adds again that layer to the

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Speaker 1: story that is interesting. It also it's jarring when you

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Speaker 1: hear um people talking about so and so identified themselves

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Speaker 1: as a homosexual and and it's just not the way

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Speaker 1: we talk anymore. And this was this wasn't kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, Joe, average person on the street. This is

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Speaker 1: actually the news media reporting on these things. And it's

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Speaker 1: just I think hearing stories told differently, um using that

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Speaker 1: that archive material, but also to kind of move the

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Speaker 1: story forward in an emotional way. I think it's really interesting,

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Speaker 1: but pain can speak to this. We didn't just want

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Speaker 1: this to be a history lesson or a History channel

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Speaker 1: type experience. It needed to go deeper than that, and

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Speaker 1: so the the archive footage was always meant to help

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Speaker 1: move the story forward, but not be the story itself.

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Speaker 1: You think. One just interesting tidbit about the archives that

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Speaker 1: you guys might find interesting is that, like each clip

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Speaker 1: you hear is thirty seconds or sixty seconds of a

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Speaker 1: clip that's like an hour long, and then there's literally

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Speaker 1: several thousand clips. And so they went through and tagged

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Speaker 1: all the clips by name and number with time codes

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Speaker 1: and kind of described what was being talked about. But

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Speaker 1: so in between there you have all this other bizarre

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Speaker 1: stuff from the eighties and it's actually some of its hilarious,

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Speaker 1: just actually looking back and seeing just society in nineteen age. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: bizarre things from the eighties, so that now we just

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Speaker 1: have to talk about it. We weren't going to talk

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Speaker 1: about it, but now we have to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Jason's US Weekly Magazine another obsession. I'm a history major,

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Speaker 1: so I get into this stuff. I mean, and I

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Speaker 1: talked about this on our special episode called The Vault,

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Speaker 1: which is the fact that um Wayne was just all

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Speaker 1: over the media and kind of attached to this, and

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Speaker 1: he did an interview with US Weekly with just kind

429
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 1: of this salacious um dramatic magazine. And I got obsessed

430
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: trying to find this, and so I searched the internet.

431
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 1: It wasn't anywhere. I found it on eBay, ordered it

432
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: and got kind of to pristine copies of the two editions,

433
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: and there was and it was kind of positioned next

434
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 1: to old cigarette ads and liquor ads and and kind

435
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: of all the stuff, and I just I still, I

436
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 1: look at it and I can't get my can't get

437
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: my arms around it and understand it. But it is

438
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: another crazy layer to this case, for sure. And I

439
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: borrowed it from you and you text me was like

440
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: do you still have the magazine? I was like, yeah, still, okay,

441
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: could you bring it to me when you're done. It's like, yeah, sure,

442
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 1: that's fine, So full disclosure. I asked Jason to bring

443
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 1: it today. I think he was afraid to have it

444
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: leave his office. It's it's probably on his desk in

445
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: a case. You brought it in your pocket so actually

446
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: what that what that brings us to is how how

447
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: are you balancing then the first person because I think

448
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 1: to your point, Jason, you didn't want this to feel

449
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 1: like a history lesson and you really went out and

450
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: drove around the neighborhoods where this, where this happened. How

451
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: did you balance those two of the archival and then

452
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: um first person interviews? Well, to me that the history

453
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: element of this is actually the most important part of it.

454
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: But me as a listener thinking objectively about this project,

455
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 1: that would be boring to me. And so I wanted

456
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: to bring new information and mesh the two together and

457
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: tell a different story than just me playing archive clips

458
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: for you and playing interviews of people just recounting what

459
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 1: happened one time. UM, I wanted to bring in new information,

460
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 1: explore theories, but also stay true to the archives and

461
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: everything else and all the racial bar bifurcations that are

462
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: just so prevalent in the story and UM, just tell

463
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,719
Speaker 1: it the right way. And to me, that was sticking

464
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: true to the history of it, because the history is important,

465
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: but also bringing new information to the table. And what

466
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: did you feel like you UM wanted to tell so

467
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 1: far that you haven't been able to because you have

468
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: done some of the extra episodes where you've delved into

469
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: the side stories. Is there anyone, any story is still

470
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: nagging at you? Um, it's it's hard to say. I mean,

471
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: there's this story is so complex and there's so much

472
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: you could tell. You could make a hundred podcasts on this,

473
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: but UM, to me, the biggest thing and it's I

474
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: want to just tell people so badly like what I'm

475
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: thinking sometimes, but this is not really the place to

476
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: do that. Um. There's also what I sayings too, were

477
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: just listen to the end, you know, listen one through

478
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: ten and then come talk to me. And so like

479
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 1: week by week, I'm like, just you just don't know

480
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: what you don't know yet. So like that kind of

481
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: stuff is, why isn't he talking about this? Lane's got him? Yeah, exactly.

482
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: Stuff like that. We also can't really say, like from

483
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: tell people what we think or Pain can't just weighing

484
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: on an opinion because the next week he might feel differently.

485
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: And we've changed positions on this thing several times. And

486
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: we have a conversation, you know, internally with our production

487
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: staff with Pain, and from week to week, you know,

488
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: we we might feel feel differently. So it's important that

489
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: even for us that you know, we're waiting to the

490
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: end and we say, Okay, we've digested all this, we

491
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: know you know what was left out, we know what

492
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: we've covered in the podcast, and you know, how do

493
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: we feel about this? And but yeah, you have to

494
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: wait till the end to really form an opinion. Yeah.

495
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: And part of that too is, UM, I think I'm

496
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: not spoiling anything when I say, um, we you know,

497
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: pain is not saying this is how I feel and

498
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,719
Speaker 1: this is how you should feel. Part of this is

499
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 1: all of us should be listening to this and going

500
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: through a lot of those same emotions and maybe thinking, well,

501
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: you know, um, what is my bias? And why am

502
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: I thinking this? Is it because I'm white? Is it

503
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: because I'm black? Is it because I grew up in Atlanta?

504
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: Is it because um I was um of of age

505
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: at the time and I remember that, or maybe I

506
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: don't know anything about it, and and I think, um,

507
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that we want to

508
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: leave with um anyone that's listened is how do I

509
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: make up my own mind? But why am I making

510
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: my mind up in a certain way? What is my bias.

511
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: What have I collected here? And you may not have

512
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: a clear answer, And and that's okay too. Yeah, I

513
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: think that's great as a as a listener, it's it's

514
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: almost a relief to hear you say this, because I

515
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: certainly from week over a week would feel one way

516
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: and then listen to the next episode and feel the

517
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: other way. And sometimes would hear Wayne and as he's

518
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: going down kind of his pathways, of the conversations you're

519
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 1: having with him, just even in that moment listening to

520
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: him would change my my perception of him. But you

521
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: can't forget either. I can't tell you how to feel

522
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: about something. And a lot of the way I presented

523
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: this was you tell me what you think about Episode five,

524
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: Wayne's World. Wayne talking to me. I'm not gonna tell

525
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: what I think. You tell me what you think. You know,

526
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put it out there. I'm not gonna influence

527
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: you at all. I'm gonna make sure it's all there

528
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: and the important parts are highlighted. But that's kind of

529
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: what this is in a lot of ways, is what

530
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: did you get from this? And you'll see very quickly

531
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: this is why it's so complicated, so why people still

532
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: talk about this. I definitely think that's why it's so

533
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: compelling as a listen because you you do have to

534
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 1: think through that, and you're pushing us as listeners to

535
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: get to that point. Um. I know that you've got

536
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: in some some heat for saying you're not a podcaster, um,

537
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: but I'd love to hear you kind of talk about

538
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: that and how that impacts your storytelling. What does that

539
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: mean to you? And is it this being able to

540
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: say I'm just gonna put something out there and let

541
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: the audience react as they see fit. Yeah, I said

542
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,479
Speaker 1: I'm not a podcaster one time, and people got mad

543
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: about that. But what I actually meant, if you heard, um,

544
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: was it podcast movement? The little thing I said, basically

545
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: it was, is that I was scared to make podcasts

546
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: before I made a podcast because I didn't think that

547
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: I fit in and I still don't fit in that well.

548
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: But it turns out that doesn't matter, actually, And that

549
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: was the whole point. It's not that I don't like podcasters.

550
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: If I didn't like podcasters and me and Jason went

551
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,959
Speaker 1: me friends, but like, seriously, it's to me, it's just

552
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: the whole labeling of things people you know have a

553
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: problem with like when you're doing a podcast, well, what

554
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: are you? You filmmaker? You have made a film. It's like,

555
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: why do I have to be labeled something? And I

556
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: kind of just like tell stories and do stuff in

557
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: two years if I'm doing something wildly different, am I

558
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: still what I am today? Or am I just the

559
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: same person? I'm just growing. So I just don't like

560
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: the label thing very much. And the podcast label really,

561
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: in all, honestly almost deterred me from making a podcast.

562
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: I did not think that I I fit in. I

563
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: just that was not my thing. So why would I

564
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: be good at that? Why would people listen to that?

565
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: And really, like, genuinely I almost didn't do it because

566
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: of just that and not look back like, wow, that

567
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: would have been really stupid if that's why I didn't

568
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: do it. So I just choose to tell that story

569
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: that way. So yeah, I'm still on a podcast. When

570
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: people ask and I alsot it's steams from up and

571
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: vantaged episode one where you know, we kind of just

572
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: disarmed the listener by saying, look, I'm I'm paint Lendsy.

573
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: I'm doing this podcast, but beware, I'm not a podcaster.

574
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm not a journalist, I'm not an attorney. I'm just

575
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: really not qualified to be doing this. So, you know

576
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: what a judgment too hard And that's where you know,

577
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: that's what sparked it. So, I mean, it wasn't made

578
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: a statement. It was like to the podcast world. It

579
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: was to the five thousand listeners of Up and Vantished

580
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: Episode one, and it just became, you know, it just

581
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: steamrolled in this bigger thing. And to be honest, you

582
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: know when we first, you know, we we know each

583
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: other through the music industry, and um, we're both burnt

584
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: out of you know, being in the music industry and

585
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: just the monotony of you know, what we're doing, and

586
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, pain and say look I want to do

587
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: something on the TV and film space. I said, look,

588
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: I'm I'm down. Let me know what I can do

589
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: to hell. So Up and Vanished The Disappearance of Terry

590
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: Grinstead was supposed to be a documentary, and then when

591
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: we realized that it costs too much money for us

592
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: to to do a documentary by ourselves, he decided, let's

593
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: make this a podcast and stay. So the entire idea

594
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: of us getting into a new field and doing some

595
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: storytelling was about film and TV, not about podcasting. So

596
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: I think that's another, you know, the reason why he

597
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: described himself that way. And I think this comes back

598
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: to Jason. You're saying just looking for the big stories

599
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: and really being able to jump into those and and

600
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: tell those and whatever medium it is. Yeah, I was

601
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: saying this yesterday on the panel, Um that it was

602
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: a part of I think I got this right. But

603
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: I think it's been forty three days since Cyrial launched.

604
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: You've been counting every day or I did my homework

605
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: before I came here. Um, it's on the desk with

606
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: the US week and uh, I mean total props to

607
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: that show. Um, it continues to be in the top

608
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: twenty or top thirty on Apple podcasts every single week.

609
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: And so when you look at this in a positive way,

610
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,959
Speaker 1: you'd say, you know, while that really is the starter

611
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: kit for anyone that is new to pot cast, this

612
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: is I think everyone's gone through that right. Oh my gosh, Serriel,

613
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: you have to listen to serial now. It's Cereal and

614
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: s Town and and I think that's been great to

615
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: kind of get people in the door. But I think

616
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: we need to tell bigger stories and kind of the

617
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: idea around Atlanta Monster was how does Tenderfoot and House

618
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: to Works kind of come together as as uh, cool

619
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: credible storytellers with different expertises and different voices and different

620
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: disciplines and and kind of elevate um in our own way,

621
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: UM one story that might be bigger and and do

622
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 1: things creatively. And we're starting to see more people kind

623
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: of getting out there and and I look at the

624
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: industry and I want to see more, and I think

625
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: listeners do too. I think they're hungry for more, and

626
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: we need to give them more. Um. That's why everyone's

627
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: talking about Atlanta Monster. Not I'm not trying to kind

628
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: of say that we're awesome and we're promoting ourselves, but

629
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: we I think we fed them something they really wanted.

630
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: I say, you're awesome, what's up? Thank you? That's nice.

631
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: So I'm actually hearing um. A lot of people say

632
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: that Up and Vanished has now been their first podcast

633
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: that they hear about a podcast. And I feel like

634
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, Cereal was that that starter kit.

635
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: But now I'm hearing Up and Vanished. How do you

636
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: feel about that? That's pretty cool because Cereal is why

637
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: I made a podcast, basically because I would not have

638
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: known what podcasting was if my friend didn't say, hey,

639
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: I ever heard of Cereal? I was like, no, what's that?

640
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: And then I started listening to Cereal. And then so

641
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: when I went to go make this uh up and

642
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: Vantaged documentary which is gonna be a TV series, at first, um,

643
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: I was like, well I really liked Cereal. Someone to

644
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: go look for other true kind podcasts to kind of

645
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: see how it was made or what was out there,

646
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: and I decided that I should make one. Don't Yeah,

647
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the biggest compliment to me is when

648
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: someone says, look, you you brought me into this new space.

649
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: Never listened to a podcast before, because I hadn't listened

650
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: to a podcast until Up and Vantage episode one. That's

651
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: the first podcast I ever listened to. And then Pain

652
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: was like, um, probably right about right, maybe a day

653
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: before yeah, I mean probably yeah, yeah, but you know.

654
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: And then the first thing Pain told me was, look,

655
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: if we're gonna do this and do it right, go

656
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: you gotta go listen to Cereal. And so the second podcast,

657
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: let's do with Cereal. And then when it started to

658
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: blow up, we said, okay, look we now have a

659
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: podcast business. So then I listened to Startup, which was

660
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: a cheat sheet for how we're gonna start up our own,

661
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 1: you know, podcasting company. So you know, this just goes

662
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: to show you could have not not be a podcast listener.

663
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: I never have made a podcast before. And you know,

664
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: it's all about the storytelling and trying to tackle big

665
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: stories and and just telling them in a way that's

666
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: that's compelling to the listener. And I think you shouldn't

667
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: shy away from controversial stories, you know, stories where you

668
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: know they're gonna be polarizing to listener. You you have

669
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: to really tell the big stories and and and it

670
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: intreagues people and brings them in when they feel like

671
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 1: this is something that I can't talk to everyone about.

672
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: Guess what podcasting really is. It's you and you're earbuds.

673
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's a private experience, and you want to

674
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: try to bring that out to the larger community, and

675
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: people obsess over they want to talk to their friends

676
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 1: about it. All right, you listen to up Advantage, You're

677
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: listening to a lot of monsters, So that's what we

678
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: want to hear that. You know, Hey, I never listened

679
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: to this, but it was so good, and I heard

680
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: about it so much that I wanted to come into

681
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: the podcast under the podcasting tent just to listen to

682
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: your podcast. So yeah, that's what I love about audio.

683
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: It's it can go from being that really personal, intimate

684
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: experience to them that very shared community. Exactly that when

685
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: you find someone else that's listening to the show that

686
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: you love, you just cannot wait to talk to them

687
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 1: about it. How do you build that connection with your audience.

688
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: It's it's hard to say exactly because I'm on the

689
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: other end of it. I don't have the same experience

690
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: as you have. Sometimes I wish I had that experience

691
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: with this show or whatever show I'm working on, because

692
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, you hear it so much. It's not they're

693
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: the same anymore. All the material is just not the same.

694
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 1: Um to me, it's like who in here makes a

695
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: podcasts or wants to anyone in here trying to do that? Okay,

696
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: that's pretty good amount. When we say like good storytelling,

697
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: do you even know we're talking about? I would be like,

698
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Like you know what I mean? Um,

699
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 1: I think that a good podcast, at least the kind

700
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 1: that we've been making it's not just telling a good

701
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: overall story, it's the very tiny little things the matter.

702
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: It's like, for example, I'm taking the ums out of

703
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: someone talking, just making the listening experience clean, and you

704
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 1: begin you begin to depend on it, and you don't

705
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: even know what those things actually are anymore. You might

706
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: listen to another podcast like, I don't know, I don't

707
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: like it as much, but I don't really know why.

708
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 1: It's those little things. So we're always focusing on those details.

709
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: We're trying to make it sound good. We're we're also

710
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: we're trying tell a big story and to tell it right,

711
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: but we're also focusing just as much on making something

712
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: sound good. So like, if you want to make your

713
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: own podcast, you know, that's really what you should focus on.

714
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: To be honest. If you have good content and you're

715
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: trying your hardest and it sounds good, then it's gonna

716
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: be good. People are gonna like it. Yeah, And I think, um,

717
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: I love um the kind of backstory on the use

718
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: of music in the in the podcast to um and

719
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: that's highly underrated as a as a mechanism for for

720
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: driving emotion and podcasts. And uh, I mean I love

721
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: how this kind of got cranking. I got got cranking

722
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: as we as we. I want this eighties music throughout

723
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: the whole thing. And I found this guy on Spotify.

724
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: His name is Makeup and Vandy Set. It's just one guy.

725
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: I thought it was this big group of people who

726
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: know its just a guy in his laptop. He's awesome. Um.

727
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: But I called him up also, like, hey, would you

728
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: be interested in basically scoring this podcast? And he had

729
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: never listened to a podcast either. Then he listened to

730
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: Up and Up and Vanished and was like, I totally

731
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: get it now, and he just progressed as every episode

732
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: has gone by making amazing music. To me, I like that.

733
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: I like being submerged in a sequence and just sort

734
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: of being there in the moment. Some people don't like

735
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: the music. I kind of like it, so that's why

736
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: you always hear it that way. But you know, make

737
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: what you like and just making your best that's pretty

738
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: much it. How much of that is an influence from

739
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: your music background, I don't know. I think it's just

740
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: kind of to me. I always sort of thought podcasts

741
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: were kind of boring. Um. I didn't really listen to

742
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: talk radio that much, so I didn't really kind of

743
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: get into that. So when I first made up and vanished,

744
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: I was trying to make something that I thought was compelling,

745
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: what would suck me in, And so I had this

746
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: sort of these music beds in the background and just

747
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: sort of setting the scene and making this tone that

748
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: really grabs you. So it comes from that really, to

749
00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: be honest, yeah, I'd agree. I mean, paintings, music, background

750
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: goes it goes back a long way. So he understands,

751
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: you know, production, He understands the timing, even when it

752
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 1: comes to how interviews are edited, and you know how

753
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: that one second pause or you know, those things make

754
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: a big difference. Things are huge. Yeah, So if you

755
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: don't know why you like one one podcast more than

756
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: another has a lot to do with the editing, the production.

757
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: I think also, you know, the music, like we talked about,

758
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: but I think the relatability of the host plays a

759
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: huge part in it, because you could listen to a

760
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: really great story or you know, interesting story, but the

761
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: person who's delivering that story is just the language they speak,

762
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: isn't the language that you're understanding how they phrase things.

763
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: I feel like when I started listening to podcasts and

764
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 1: I felt like, is the host just trying to show

765
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: me how smart they are by the way they're trying

766
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: to tell the story. I just want to hear a

767
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: good story. It doesn't have to be told from the

768
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: perspective or from you know you. You spent you know,

769
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: days and weeks writing this one part to see let

770
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: me let me, you know, go in the saurus and

771
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: figure out a better word to say here that makes

772
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: me sound even smarter. It's like, just just tell me

773
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: your story so I can relate to it. And and

774
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: those are the things that you know, you like, why

775
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: do I like this and not that one? Both could

776
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: be good stories, but how is it relating to you?

777
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: With pain, he's he's like the audience when it comes

778
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: to like, oh, I might go and knock on the

779
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: door just like that. But the journalists or the attorney

780
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: might not take that approach. They might say, oh, that's

781
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: that's not the way we would do it by the book.

782
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: But pain is like, Okay, let me call this guy up,

783
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: let me recordious call you know, so as things that

784
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: we would just all do as a listener if we

785
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: were hosting our own podcast. I think that's a huge

786
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: part of it. So you're saying that I should buy

787
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: a thesaurus. Basically, yeah, definitely got it. I was just

788
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: gonna say, there's there's a clip at the beginning I

789
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: think is it episode five, and it's a really frustrating

790
00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: to three minute um interlude of all the things you

791
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: had to go through to actually connect with Wayne on

792
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: the call. And you know, some people are like, oh,

793
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: how could you do that? That is yeah, you're like, okay,

794
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: well it's a little long, but you're like, I knew that.

795
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: But actually, to be honest, the whole thing took about

796
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. And that was about two and a half minutes.

797
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: I kept treating a DOWNSA, this is a little too long.

798
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: About wanted you to be like, good greed, this is ridiculous.

799
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: You'll hear that confirmation number. I was like, this is

800
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: that is That's the longest number I've ever been read.

801
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: Someone has to hear this. It reminded me of the

802
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: old dial up days when you're waiting for the modem.

803
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: Exactly this is what you have to do. I thought

804
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: I was intriguing. I was like, this is what everyone

805
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: does when they talk to someone in ja illness is insane. Yeah,

806
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: and then I mean not to get too intellectual about it,

807
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: but um, like, wow, the prison system and everything about

808
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: this bureaucratic nightmare is broken. Um, and look what you

809
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: have to do to just talk to someone. And I

810
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: just just putting it out there for people who observe

811
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: and frankly get a little frustrated themselves as they listen to.

812
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: That's the whole put you there, that's the whole point.

813
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: So you did go and knock on doors and show

814
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: up at people's houses. How did you build the report

815
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: to get them to talk to you? To be honest,

816
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: I didn't really have one. I didn't think I did

817
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: at least I just just called people and said, hey,

818
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: you don't know me, I want to talk basically, But no,

819
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: I mean, to be honest, it's a very tragic story.

820
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: So depend on who you're talking to. You're always sensitive

821
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: to who this person is and how they're related to

822
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: this case and this story. You can't ever forget that.

823
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: It's the most important part of this. So if you're

824
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: always keeping that in mind, and you're trying to be

825
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: a people person and just find a way to relate

826
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: to somebody, then most of the time it works. Yeah.

827
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: I mean, don't let your own voice get in the

828
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: way of someone being able to tell you a story.

829
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: And I think especially if you if you listen to

830
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: episode one, I think you're barely in that episode, and

831
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: it's it's because that was intentional. Yeah, I mean, it's

832
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: it's I've seen some press on this where yes, we

833
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: talked to FBI agents and a p D officers and

834
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: television anchors, but actually just talking and of course um

835
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: you know, um families, um, of the victims and such,

836
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: but also just people who grow up at that time

837
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: and listening to those people. I think it's just super important,

838
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: and it's just you know, hey, I grew up in

839
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: this neighborhood and this is how I felt and then.

840
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: And they don't have to be anyone that is of

841
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: a high position in the city or or we're involved

842
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: in the case. We just want to know how you feel.

843
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: That's super important to just listen every single interview. You

844
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: hear every single one. Meredith and I are both there

845
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: in person for every single one of them, and I

846
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: often intentionally just remove myself from it. So this person

847
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: is telling their story, it's not my story, and I

848
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: just think it sounds better that way. It's more natural. Um,

849
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not trying to be a part of

850
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: the conversation with them. I don't know anything about what

851
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: they're telling me. You know, I'm hearing it for the

852
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: first time, like you guys are as they're telling me.

853
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: So I'm not trying to, you know, broadcast a conversation

854
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: with somebody. I'm trying to ask the right questions so

855
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: they can kind of take the stage themselves. And then

856
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: what's your process of putting it together? Because now you

857
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: were there for it, hearing it the first time, and

858
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: then obviously when you're adding it, you're hearing it over

859
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: and over again. How do you not get too close

860
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 1: and actually kind of bring yourself back to that moment

861
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: of hearing it for the first time. Um, as you're

862
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: listening to it, as you do the interview, you kind

863
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: of go, oh, yep, that's a that's pretty important, or

864
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: that's a good part, or that's a really interesting lot

865
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: line that has to go in there. So stuff like that.

866
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: You kind of just trying to remember that or take notes.

867
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: But then when it comes down to the interview, you

868
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 1: have to kind of go back and forth. When you're

869
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: editing from going from thinking super objectively and like broad

870
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: about it and then being very hyper focused on one

871
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: little thing about the way this actually sounds, not what

872
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: the word means, but does this sound funky? Is this

873
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: sound okay? And then you know, does this story chronologically

874
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: makes sense? And then should I interject myself here and

875
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: give a little further explanation on that or should I

876
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 1: just you know, put this here so it makes sense

877
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: to come right after that? And the goal for me

878
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: is to the less narration that's needed, the better podcast

879
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: edit it is. If it can go five minutes without

880
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: me talking, that means that it all made enough sense

881
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: for you to sit back and hear people just talking

882
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: and you know what's going on. I think that's pretty

883
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: hard to do. So if you can do that, you're

884
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 1: doing a pretty good job. Yeah you're great, Yes, okay,

885
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,919
Speaker 1: Donalds are great. That's good. Yeah, that's that's sauces right there,

886
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: and the and the edit and in not getting in

887
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 1: your own way. You know, the worst thing you can

888
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: do is over talk if you're interviewing someone, because they

889
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: could be about to say something great and then here

890
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: you come bumbling all over the place and interjecting what

891
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: you want them to say. Are trying to get to

892
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: the point fashion than that they you know, than the

893
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: pace that they're going to get to it eventually. At

894
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,959
Speaker 1: so I think, yeah, just sitting back and letting people

895
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 1: talk and then you know, being able to pull those

896
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: little things out, that's what You'll have a questions sometimes

897
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: and I'll just sit there five seconds of like awkward

898
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: silence with somebody and I'm just like, and they're like

899
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: they always talk, so and they just start filling the

900
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: air with something because they feel obligated to you know

901
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: what I mean. It's like it felt weird to me

902
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: at first, just kind of just you know someone's gonna

903
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: eventually start of talking about Like it's not like a standoff.

904
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: It's more like a you know, I'm not I'll just

905
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: be waiting a little bit longer than someone else might

906
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: be waiting, and then before I'm about to talk, they

907
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: start talking. It's actually a great negotiation tactic, just so

908
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: you know myself, you can save that for later, because

909
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: it's not as easy as it sounds like. I do

910
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 1: some like pre interviews where I'll just record a conversation

911
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: with someone to see what are they gonna give us

912
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: if if pain is gonna you know, talk to them

913
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: or not so I try to hear kind of what

914
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: they've done in their interviews and mimic that strategy. And

915
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: it's really not easy because you get into it. You

916
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: want them to tell you what's next. Want a conversational.

917
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: You don't want to sit there and just not say anything.

918
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,879
Speaker 1: They're like, are you there are things? Okay? You want

919
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: to be engaged enough and just find a little moments

920
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: like yeah, just like be there with them in the conversation,

921
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: but not talk over them or steer it too much.

922
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 1: It just takes practice pretty much. And I was gonna say,

923
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, part of um um how stuff works and

924
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: tenderfoot working together. I think our approach with creators is

925
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: to kind of let them have the floor and let

926
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: it let them do get their way and so um

927
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 1: it gets a little hairy at the end as we're

928
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: trying to put an episode to bed and all that stuff.

929
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: And that's absolutely okay, um, But I just I don't,

930
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: like I was talking about earlier about like there being

931
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,399
Speaker 1: a template for how you do a show. The last

932
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: thing that we want to do is tell Pain and

933
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 1: Meredith and Donald like, this is the way you need

934
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: to do the show, because this is the way that

935
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: House to Works has always done that show. And so

936
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that we don't add, you know, certain

937
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: riggers and discipline about production and research and kind of

938
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: all that stuff. That's why we're working together. But I

939
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,720
Speaker 1: stand firm and saying like we need to let creators

940
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: tell their story and every one of them can be

941
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: completely different and have different personalities, and and that the

942
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: whole thing, and that's the whole point is like really

943
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: letting them run. So episode nine tonight, Episode ten, which

944
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:47,439
Speaker 1: is the final episode, how do you feel about it wrapping? Now? Wow,

945
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: I need to go to the beach or something. Um.

946
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: I feel it's been like the longest feeling ten weeks ever. Um,

947
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know how I feel about it. To

948
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: be honest, I'm still will like in it right now,

949
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: so I don't really even know. But um, I'm I'm

950
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: happy that people have liked this podcast and have learned

951
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: a lot. And um, I was pretty nervous about this

952
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: project because I knew it was big, and I thought

953
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: that it was another thing that it was just too

954
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: big for me. I thought that maybe I'm not the

955
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: right guy for this. You know, I actually thought those

956
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: things before I did it. But UM, you know, I

957
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: put a lot of effort into doing it the right

958
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: way and I think in a lot of ways it

959
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: paid off. So UM, you know, I'm I'm proud of it.

960
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: I think that the team House of Works, Donald Meredith,

961
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 1: everyone in the House of Works did a great job.

962
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: And UM, you know, I'm excited to see what comes next.

963
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: I'm also excited to have a complete project out there

964
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: one through tin and so you know, we can with

965
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: every listener I meet, I can have a full conversation

966
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: about the whole thing. That's great. Yeah, and now it's

967
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: time to um actually talk to some of your listeners

968
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: and open things that and a question in the back. Hi,

969
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 1: my name is Amila from Tokyo. I don't know you said, uh,

970
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 1: it's just the story. But what percentage is funct and

971
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: what percentage fish? And do you think and oh how

972
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: do you uh making effort to uh uh two take

973
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: a fucked mhm. Um. So All Up and Vanished and

974
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster are both factual podcasts. I've never made anything

975
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: up for stage anything or anything like that. UM, so

976
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: all the stuff you're hearing is is legit and real. Um.

977
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: I like to take these real life moments and build

978
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: them up to give you the same link that I

979
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: felt when when it was happening to me or anyone

980
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: else on our team who was telling the story, or

981
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: when we're going back in time to recreate a moment

982
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: that happens somewhere else. So, UM, you know, it's all

983
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 1: factual stuff, and you know we're proud of that, and

984
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: you know just what happens that with both podcasts. Now

985
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: we've dug up some crazy stories and UM, we just

986
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: choose to present them the way we do. So sometimes

987
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: you might think this that this isn't real, but it

988
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: is so. And there's another point of that, which is, um,

989
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: you know, oh my gosh, down the conspiracy rat, you know,

990
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: rabbit hole here. I have to tell you that most

991
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: of the stories that we are actually putting out there,

992
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: and even some of the stories you haven't heard, they've

993
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: been talked about for thirty or forty years and we're

994
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 1: presenting them back to the listeners. So this is actually

995
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: why this case continues to be so confusing and I think,

996
00:51:56,440 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: um so divided is the fact that these theories, whether

997
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: they were put out there by Wayne, whether other people

998
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: in the kind of the connected universe of this case,

999
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: the whole point is to actually say, listen, people have

1000
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 1: been talking about all these little elements for years, and

1001
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: here they are. Here they are, and again, make up

1002
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: your mind. That is not us with an agenda trying

1003
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: to push conspiracies. It is us actually pushing those whatever

1004
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: you want to call them, up to the surface and

1005
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: presenting them to you the listeners. Also on the conspiracy

1006
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: Um conversation, I think we're not just pushing like a

1007
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: crack pot conspiracy theory that one guy thought up. If

1008
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: it's crack pot, millions of people actually believe that, so

1009
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,760
Speaker 1: it would be it wouldn't be authentic if we didn't

1010
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: present like crazy things that millions of people believe. So

1011
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: we're we're not pushing those but it's you know, it's

1012
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: our duty to kind of tell the truth about all

1013
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: these different opinions and what people actually believe, and then

1014
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: try to break down, Okay, why does this person think

1015
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: that way? I think that's what hopefully we've been able

1016
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: to do that to the podcast, where if you hear

1017
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: something this sounds crazy, we present what drove that person?

1018
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: Are these millions of people to think this way? Hi,

1019
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: I'm all a long time? How stuff works listener. Um,

1020
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: there's a ton of new podcasts from House Touff Works

1021
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: right now, a lot of different, uh than what they

1022
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: were before. Is like ethnically ambiguous culture kings that sort

1023
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: of thing. I was wondering if you to talk about

1024
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: like the impetus or reasons why how stuff works sort

1025
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: of decided to diversify a lot more. That's a great question.

1026
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: Thanks for being a supporter. I would say, Um, you know,

1027
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: we've we actually as a come. I won't bore you

1028
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: with the business details, but we had the ability to

1029
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: to raise some money that allows that podcast business to

1030
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: be its own standalone business. And frankly, a lot of

1031
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 1: our creative ambitions cannot be realized. And so I think

1032
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: at last content we we saw something around thirty new

1033
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: shows in some level of production where we only had

1034
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: about twelve the fifteen shows total over the years. And

1035
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: so you are north Star has always been around curiosity

1036
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: and that will continue to be our core focus. But

1037
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 1: we're also just podcast fans too, and um, we want

1038
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: to Um, we want to cover lots of things like

1039
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: comedy and true crime and kind of fill those gaps. Um,

1040
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,879
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into some fiction. We're gonna get into

1041
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: to some health and wellness and some other big categories UM.

1042
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: And we just also just didn't want it to be

1043
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: you know, UM just the same UM voices. We I

1044
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: think if you look at UM a snapshot of our employees, UM,

1045
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 1: they're starting to reflect the kind of shows that we

1046
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 1: have to. So we want more women, we want different

1047
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: types of UM UM across the board with diversity. And

1048
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: I think there's a hung or across each of those

1049
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: UM those groups for more programming like this. So you're

1050
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: gonna you're gonna see a lot more from us this year,

1051
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 1: and we're really excited about it. Are they all moving

1052
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: into your building? No? I mean part of this is, UM,

1053
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, we're not going to be able to do

1054
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: every bit of this ourselves, and so we really want

1055
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: to work with the best creators out there. And I

1056
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: think you know, Painton Donald and Meredith and the Tenderfoot

1057
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 1: team is really UM got us thinking about, UM, how

1058
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 1: do how do we how do we do our own stuff?

1059
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: But then how do we also UM tell stories that

1060
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: we could never naturally do by ourselves and and kind

1061
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: of go in places that we've never been. We had

1062
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: never done a true crime anything until this, it was

1063
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: a lot of shows that you guys are familiar with,

1064
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: and it was new to us and a little bit daunting.

1065
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: And for one last question. Hi, my name is Lisa Paint.

1066
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 1: I know you're trying to go to the beach, but

1067
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what's next and how often you get approached

1068
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: by people with ideas and how you decide you know

1069
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: what your next project is going to be. Well, what's

1070
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: next is up in Advantage season two before anything else,

1071
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: which will be a new case and I've chose that.

1072
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: I've chosen the case and it's not in Georgia, so

1073
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 1: I can say about it now, but it's gonna come

1074
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: out um summer, like late midsummer, So that'll be the

1075
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: first thing up. We're also working on up in Advantage,

1076
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 1: the TV series on Oxygen, which we're UM really foreign

1077
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: development on and we'll be shooting some stuff in a

1078
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: couple of months and so hopefully that'll come out within

1079
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 1: the year, and also some stuff with a Letta Monster

1080
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: as far as UM possibly doing some visual stuff for

1081
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 1: that as well, and then they'll eventually be another podcast

1082
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 1: UM from me Tenderfoot UM in the same vein as

1083
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 1: these possibly UM there's also other arenas I want to

1084
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 1: jump into it, or other genres as just say uh.

1085
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: In the podcast world, I want to jump into some

1086
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: being fiction as well. Um So, I don't really know

1087
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: what that other project is that you're talking about, but

1088
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: I do have some awesome ideas and it's it's it's

1089
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: brewings right now. So pop, that answered your question. Great well,

1090
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you Payne. I know you've been traveling

1091
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 1: and trying to finish the last episode, so we really

1092
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 1: appreciate you being here. It's done, done, one am tonight.

1093
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: Jason on the way out to get us phone because

1094
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: it's on there. Thank you, Jason, this guy, thank you.

1095
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by tune In, which

1096
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: brings together all of the live, sports, music, news and

1097
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 1: podcasts do you love, original, live and on demand audio

1098
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: all in one place. Go to tune in dot com

1099
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: slash Atlanta Monster to download and listen