1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Friends Media. Some stories are just good time stories. Sometimes 3 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: we just want to key key and live in somebody 4 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: else's fictional world for a little bit. 5 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: And sometimes we want to be educated in those moments 6 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: more feeling like we want to expand our knowledge base, 7 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: our consciousness. You might want a historical breakdown or even 8 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 2: a factual analysis. 9 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: But sometimes we just want to learn about someone's life 10 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: in their own words, and in memoirs we really get 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: to step into someone else's shoes. We get to trace 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: someone's path over a specific period in their lives. We 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: get to see their ups and downs and their evolution 14 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: in a way that feels vulnerable and insightful. 15 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: Memoirs can be stories where our protagonist comes of age, 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: where they hit rock bottom, or where they go on 17 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: the adventure of a lifetime. 18 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 19 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: The cool thing about memoirs is that they don't have 20 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: to be about famous people. They're often about everyday people 21 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: who have life stories that people can connect with and 22 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: learn from. That means that a lot of the time 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: we get to read stories from people whose names we 24 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: may never know otherwise, or people whose voices are systematically silenced. 25 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 2: And today we'll be speaking with award winning author, activists 26 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 2: and media strategist Roquel Willis, who has a new memoir 27 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 2: called The Risk It Takes to Bloom. 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 3: I'm Katie and I'm Eves. 29 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: Today's episode on Risk and Liberation with Roquel Willis. In 30 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: her memoir, Raquel talks about her upbringing in Georgia, the 31 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: challenges she had to face as a transgender woman, finding 32 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: her community and voice in the South, and her work 33 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: as a journalist and organizer dedicated to uplifting trans stories. 34 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: And you know, Roquel telling her story this way is 35 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: pretty impactful media landscape that portrays trans people as villains. 36 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: People do some serious reaching to figure out ways to 37 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: debate trans people's identity and spew hatred and intolerance, all 38 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: under the guise of moral superiority and like feigned concern 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: for children. I don't want a platform too much of 40 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: that narrative, but it's rampant. So you've probably seen some 41 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: of the anti trans propaganda. People's sloppily constructed opinions on 42 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: transfolks can lead to real damaging consequences like bathroom and 43 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: locker room bills and children dying by suicide. The point 44 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: is folks in all kinds of media are great at 45 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: crafting stories that use misinformation and disinformation to sway your 46 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: opinion about trans people. And when you're the target of 47 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,399 Speaker 1: this kind of damaging propaganda, it can be super important 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: to create spaces where you can take control of your 49 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: own narratives, and in the risk it takes to bloom, 50 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: Raquel does just that. She shows us how she developed, 51 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: as she puts it, a thirst for embracing authentic storytelling 52 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: as a critical aspect of collective liberation. So as we 53 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: approach the end of another Women's History Month, we speak 54 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: with Raquel about the beauty of black trans people telling 55 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: their stories with agency and how honest personal storytelling helped 56 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: pave a path toward freedom. Hi Raquel, Hi, I'm so 57 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: glad to have you on the show today. 58 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 4: Welcome, Welcome. 59 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: Yes, I loved reading your book, and one thing that 60 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: I was thinking the whole time is like, this is 61 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: so vulnerable, and I want to know what that process 62 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: was like for you. What were the emotions that you 63 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: were going through while you were writing the book and 64 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: telling your story in this very revealing way In terms. 65 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 4: Of emotionality, I had to work through feelings of shame 66 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 4: around my story as a black trans woman who started 67 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 4: her career, you know, over a decade ago, and also 68 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 4: my transition even years before that. For a long time, 69 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 4: I felt like I had to run as far away 70 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 4: from my childhood and origin story as possible because I 71 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 4: feared my childhood, my boyhood, you know, all of those 72 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 4: things being weaponized against me to kind of chip away 73 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 4: at who I am now, to chip away at my womanhood. 74 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 4: And so I think that that was a big part 75 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,679 Speaker 4: of some of the emotions there was figuring out how 76 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 4: to really embrace and love my younger self, but also 77 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 4: to give grace to family and other folks in my 78 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 4: life and community and environment who didn't have the tools 79 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 4: to understand who I was. 80 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 3: Well. 81 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: So it seems like the things that maybe you're running 82 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: from the most, or the things that you really had 83 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: to confront as you were writing the book. 84 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 4: Absolutely yeah. I mean it's laying it all on front street, 85 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 4: as Foth say. So you have to be ready in 86 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 4: a sense, and I don't know that there's a one 87 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 4: hundred percent way to know that you're ready to share 88 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 4: your story on that level, but I think being able 89 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 4: to share your story and have those hard conversations in 90 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 4: your most intimate relationships first is key, and I think 91 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 4: some of that has been lost in a time where 92 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 4: everyone is a brand, you know, social media demands us 93 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 4: to relinquish some of our most intimate and vulnerable moments 94 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 4: and sometimes to hype up and you know, perform, you know, 95 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 4: more vulnerability than maybe we are ready for. 96 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 2: One of the things I noticed in your book that 97 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 2: I would say was surprising speaking of you saying learning 98 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: to Love your younger self and Embrace the boyhood, was 99 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: that you shared a picture of your younger self and 100 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,239 Speaker 2: you also named your younger self. 101 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: So what was that thought process? 102 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: And because it often is weaponized, what made you feel 103 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: like I am going to put this out on for 104 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 2: a street and what? 105 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean, those were some big decisions, and I 106 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 4: wanted to make sure that the pieces of my childhood 107 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 4: and my life before really having the language to understand 108 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 4: my transness, were presented in the way that I wanted 109 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 4: them presented. I think in previous moments of literature and 110 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 4: storytelling for trans folks, there was a necessity to kind 111 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 4: of paint as stark of difference between who we are, 112 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 4: maybe pre transitioned, so to speak, and beyond kind of 113 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 4: naming our transness, because I don't really think transitioning ever 114 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 4: in but I think being able to show my younger 115 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 4: self was important to love that younger self because I 116 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 4: am every version of me that has existed, right, So 117 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 4: I am the little kid called a boy right and 118 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 4: being raised as a boy, right like I have that 119 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 4: kid in me. And I also understand that these categories 120 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 4: of boy and girl and man and woman, you know, 121 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 4: it's not that rigid, and I have come to a 122 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 4: point in my life where it doesn't hurt me so 123 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 4: much to name that history in that way. But I 124 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 4: also didn't just want to share my younger self. I 125 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 4: wanted to share this context that I was birth and race, 126 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 4: and which is my family. So it's not just a 127 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 4: picture of me, it's a picture of Actually every picture 128 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 4: is a picture of me with family or community, mostly 129 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 4: my mom, because she's been kind of a central figure 130 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 4: in my life, so she is featured in three of 131 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 4: the images. 132 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: Does she love that, you know? 133 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 4: I think she did. She hasn't spoken to that dynamic specifically, 134 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 4: but it has been important for me at various points 135 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 4: in my career to name that I have a loving 136 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 4: and affirming mother and a family that has evolved alongside me. 137 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: So I would imagine there are many trans people who 138 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: may not be ready to tell their stories, maybe thinking 139 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: about telling their stories in various ways, and they might 140 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: not have gotten to this point where you are, like 141 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: you say, where those things don't hurt you to name anymore, 142 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: or that shame that you said you were able to 143 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: work through through this process, which I guess this process 144 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: of writing the book could have been therapeutic in ways 145 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: to help you. 146 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 3: Work through it. 147 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: But what kind of advice would you give to other 148 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: trans people who want to share their stories, who don't 149 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: necessarily have the capacity or tools to move through shame 150 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: to name things that may be difficult for them to name. 151 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 4: Well, I think it's important to figure out what your 152 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 4: outlet is for release of all of the inevitable pin 153 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 4: up energy and ankst and grieving and fears. For some 154 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 4: people that's sports and being active in that way. It's 155 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 4: for some people it's the arts and all the ways 156 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 4: that that exists. But I think that having the outlets 157 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 4: are so key to let that energy out in some way, 158 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 4: even if it's not energy that you can really name 159 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 4: specifically what it is, and that feels important for me 160 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 4: as a trans person to state because I think that 161 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 4: the naming of the experience is just one thing, but 162 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 4: I think the how you express it is another thing, right, 163 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 4: and that that helps us get to the deeper layers 164 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 4: of what are the parts of your story that give 165 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 4: you strength? What are the parts of your story that 166 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 4: you feel most traumatized by or hurt by? And where 167 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 4: we let that energy out matters? And for me, you know, 168 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 4: that has been writing. It has been being able to 169 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 4: express myself in the written word and speeches and all 170 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 4: of those different things. Also, my advice for folks trying 171 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 4: to work through through guilt and shame has been to 172 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 4: find other stories and kind of sustain yourself one those 173 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 4: until you can get to a point where you can 174 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 4: share your story in the way that you need to. 175 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 4: I mean, whenever I feel like times are difficult, and 176 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 4: that's pretty often these days. I think about our ancestors 177 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 4: and trancestors and like what they endured and built with 178 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 4: even less tools and access and language to understand who 179 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 4: they were. Right, if they could do it, why can't 180 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 4: I figure out my path? 181 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 3: Yeah? That makes a lot of sense. 182 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: Are there any memoirs that you look to in writing 183 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: your book. 184 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely, I mean the perfect kind of quintessential memoirs. 185 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 4: Of course, you know Janet Mok's redefining realness, surpassing certainty. 186 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 4: Her two memoirs are foundational. And also I had this book, 187 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 4: but I had to really fall in love with it 188 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 4: all over again. Hiding My Candy by the Lady Shabbie, 189 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 4: who was a black trans performer they would say female 190 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 4: impersonator back in the nineties, but that was when she 191 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 4: wrote her autobiography because she was a character in this 192 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 4: best selling book called Midnight in the Garden of Good 193 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 4: and Evil. And then she also was able to reprise 194 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 4: her role in the film. So we have this kind 195 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 4: of hidden black trans history and Southern Black trans history 196 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 4: that I think we haven't talked about enough. 197 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 2: What do you see the connection between personal narrative and 198 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: social change in the context of your memoir. 199 00:12:53,120 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 4: Well, I think that it was important to recognize both 200 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 4: the revolution that happened within me and the one that 201 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 4: happened beyond me and continues to happen, right, And I 202 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 4: think revolution is an ongoing phenomenon which I speak to 203 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 4: in the epilogue of the book. But I think when 204 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 4: you believe in collective liberation, there is an inherent need 205 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 4: to also believe in the power of transformation. And that 206 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 4: isn't just something that happens collectively like that has to 207 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 4: happen on an individual level too. And I think we 208 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 4: discount how important the moments of shift and change and 209 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 4: taking risk to bloom matter in our lives. Right that 210 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 4: death that you experience in your family or with a 211 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 4: loved ones and friends or in community, that is fertilizer 212 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 4: for you to grow and change, Right, not just kind 213 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 4: of wallow and will to away. The loss of a 214 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 4: dream or the shattering of an expectation. You know, those 215 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 4: are opportunities for us to think new ways of living 216 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 4: and existing. And that's the connection for me. 217 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: More with Raquel willis after the break you mentioned the 218 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: power of personal transformation and being able to tell your story. 219 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on memoir being a space for 220 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: trans people to be able to tell their stories. Do 221 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: you think that it is a safe and authentic medium 222 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: for trans people to be able to tell their stories. 223 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 4: What I appreciate about memoir and book link works and 224 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 4: long form is that it just gives the creator vast 225 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 4: space to dig into the nuances, and I think in 226 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 4: a world where most people, I think it's safe to 227 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 4: say most people don't understand the complexity of gender or 228 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 4: sex or identity in all of these different ways, we 229 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 4: need that space to tease out these different things. Trans 230 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 4: folks are not thought of in these kind of deeper 231 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 4: complex ways, and that's what I wanted to add to 232 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 4: the cannon. 233 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: I'm also thinking about how at this point you've gone 234 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: to different places for your book tour and had different 235 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: conversations in those spaces, So that kind of means you've 236 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: had to continue talking about your story over and over. 237 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: Have you learned anything new about yourself? Have you had 238 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: any revelations in this continuation or guess dialogue that you're 239 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: having with your own store in this process. 240 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 4: There's this quote that's like, and I don't know who 241 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 4: to attribute to, but it's like, once you create the thing, 242 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 4: oftentimes it's no longer yours, and there's a piece of that, 243 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 4: you know, Like, my experience with this book has been 244 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 4: so different at different points. Obviously, you know, I think 245 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 4: the drafting of it was its own particular experience and 246 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 4: had its own struggles and triumphs of do I want 247 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 4: to include that can I say that? And then of 248 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 4: course the editing process is like, well, can I say 249 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 4: that better? Or do I need to take that out? 250 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 4: Is that a disservice to my goals or doesn't make 251 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 4: you know, my arguments for my existence stronger? You know? 252 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 4: But that's a different struggle than the drafting process. And 253 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 4: then of course in the publishing it's like, well, what 254 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 4: are the ways that I'm willing to allow my story 255 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 4: to be packaged in the ways that I'm not Now 256 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 4: that I have created this thing and that is its 257 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 4: own thing too. And then the other piece is now 258 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 4: that this is out in the world and I'm having 259 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 4: conversations with folks and they're making their connections around the 260 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 4: parts that really resonate with them, it becomes its own 261 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 4: thing when other people read it than it is for me, 262 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 4: because I'm the only person in the world who has 263 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 4: had the experience of processing, analyzing, and creating this. So 264 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 4: no one is going to, even in reading my book, 265 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 4: know my full story or my whole truth. I mean, 266 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 4: there are folks who have read the difficult moments I 267 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 4: had with family and own see the difficult part because they, 268 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 4: in their life have only experienced the difficult part, and 269 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 4: so maybe the argument of evolution of family isn't as 270 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 4: resonant for them because they haven't been able to experience 271 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 4: that right, Or maybe they don't believe that that's possible, 272 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 4: and maybe it's not possible for them and their family right. 273 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 4: And then of course there are other folks who are like, 274 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 4: latch on to the evolution of my family and the 275 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 4: possibility and see that maybe it's possible for them, or 276 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 4: maybe they are experiencing that joy. It bores and it 277 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 4: shifts depending on who is having the conversation. 278 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: That's one of the things about memoirs is it's a 279 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 2: book about you in a certain part of your life. 280 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: But as you said, you're in community with people, so 281 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: other people are going to show up, and you know, 282 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 2: sometimes people don't like how they show up in your memoir. 283 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 4: They're like, I do that you remember that wrong. 284 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: But one thing I liked about your memoir is that 285 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: you also included letters to other people, your dad being one, 286 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: but other trans people like China Gibson. Why was that 287 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 2: important for you to center them in that way? 288 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 4: I would say the first chapter that I had a 289 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 4: full draft of was the chapter about my dad and 290 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 4: someone told me. Actually, Janet Mock when she read an 291 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 4: early version, said, you know, this is the emotional core 292 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 4: of the book. You know, like this is you essentially 293 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 4: me at you know, my most vulnerable. How are you 294 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 4: going to glean your power sitting in that? In these 295 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 4: other spaces in the book. And so that was that 296 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 4: was some very beautiful, necessary feedback because it was a risk, right, 297 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 4: it was a risk to name, especially as someone often 298 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 4: put on a pedestal and probably put on a pedestal 299 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 4: more now. Right, it's just like it keeps growing, you know, 300 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 4: as a public figure, as an activist, I'm often a 301 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 4: person who becomes a vessel for other people to understand 302 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 4: themselves or the world or politics or liberation even which 303 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 4: is like is wild to me, and you know it's 304 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 4: impossible to be that really, But I wanted to be 305 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 4: able to show these moments, and particularly with my dad, 306 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 4: where I felt the most shame and the most guilt 307 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 4: around not living up to his expectations, societies expectations, the 308 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 4: Catholic churches expectations, you know, all of these different things. 309 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 4: That was important and to talk about what it means 310 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 4: and what it meant to embrace being a failure to 311 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 4: those expectations, right, and a failure to these ideas that 312 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 4: I would be a person who would see myself in 313 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 4: black masculinity, and that if I didn't and couldn't, that 314 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 4: I shouldn't exist, right. That was important, And I think 315 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 4: with the epistolary approach with the letters, it was necessary 316 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 4: to be able to continue the narrative of the story progressing, 317 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 4: but also be able to speak more directly to who 318 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 4: I was at the time of writing. And so I 319 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 4: become a slightly different narrator, pulling on more dimensions of 320 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 4: what I've learned along the way and bring the reader 321 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 4: through that moment. And that was kind of the approach, 322 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 4: and that was what I felt like, change the tone 323 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 4: a little bit. And I think for some people the 324 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 4: letters are the most important, or not important, but their 325 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 4: most resonant parts of the book for them. 326 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, letters are like really intimate. I think about, you know, 327 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 2: James Baldwin writing to his nephew, or Ton of Hose 328 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 2: Coast writing to his son, and it's like we get 329 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 2: to get a peek into you writing to these different 330 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: trans women you know who didn't make it and coming 331 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: like I guess from like a big sister energy to 332 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: little Sister, even though their ancestors now So yeah, it 333 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: is really resonant. 334 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: You say in the introduction to your book that you 335 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: have formative organizing experiences that fuel your thirst for embracing 336 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: authentic storytelling as a critical aspect of collective liberation. I 337 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: like you to talk more about that and why and 338 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: how it's a critical aspect of collective liberation. 339 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 3: What is the link between those two things. 340 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 4: So I studied journalism at the University of Georgia. Go Dogs. 341 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 4: I think I'm obligated to say that where I get 342 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 4: fined or maybe they throw another student loan at me, 343 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 4: I don't know. But when I was in journalism school, 344 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 4: and I think that this is true for a lot 345 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 4: of folks in the margins, the idea of objectivity was 346 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 4: kind of a way to keep us from bringing our 347 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 4: lived experience into conversation with our expertise. So this idea 348 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 4: that to be unbiased is to be a blank slate, 349 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 4: to strip yourself of these things that make you unique, 350 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 4: your blackness, your transness, your queerness, your womanhood, even and 351 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 4: on and on. But as I started to get into 352 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 4: the field and have opportunities, at least at my first job. 353 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 4: I wasn't out as queer and trance because I didn't 354 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 4: feel safe enough, and I felt the impact of being 355 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 4: closeted on my work. I wasn't a to be the 356 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 4: best storyteller that I could be because I had to 357 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 4: hide my queerness and transness, or at least felt I 358 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 4: had to to survive, and that was a problem. So 359 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 4: then it must be true that to be open about 360 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 4: those things would make me a deeper, richer storyteller. And 361 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 4: so then when we think about the James Baldwins and 362 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 4: the Angela Davises and the Ida b Wells Barnett's, you 363 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 4: know who brought their full self to their work in 364 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 4: varying ways. Those are the people I aspire to be, 365 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 4: not the folks that inevitably have told me that my blackness, 366 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 4: transnis queerness in womanhood didn't matter. 367 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: More conversation with Raquel after the Break. 368 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 4: So by now. 369 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: You've worked in a bunch of different mediums, so magazines, 370 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: you've done it in speeches in public capacities, and podcasts, 371 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: and I know new podcasts just launched, and just writing 372 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: your own book writing essays. I was wondering if you've 373 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: seen any sort of differences in how you're able to 374 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: move towards this aim of liberation and whatever other goals 375 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: you have. 376 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: In your storytelling through these different mediums. 377 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: How does the goalpost or how does how you achieve 378 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: those objectives? How does that change as the medium changes? 379 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 4: Well, I think that with media changes, the technique, the skills, 380 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 4: you know, those kind of things shift, But I don't 381 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 4: think purpose shifts all that much. So if I'm invested 382 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 4: in elevating the honor and dignity of black trans power 383 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 4: and liberation, which I am, then it carries me through 384 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 4: whatever era I'm in, whatever role that I'm in, and 385 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 4: on and on. So in writing, the stories that I 386 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 4: want to share inevitably are connected to observing black transpower 387 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 4: and dreaming of what black transpower can be. Or if 388 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 4: I'm working in podcasting, it's about for instance, Afterlives one 389 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 4: podcast that's focused on the lives we've lost too soon 390 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,719 Speaker 4: to violence in the trans community. And so with Leileen 391 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 4: Polanco's story, who was the center of the first season, 392 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 4: we're talking about an Afro Latina trans woman who died 393 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 4: in Riker's custody. This is a black trans story, but 394 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 4: it's also a universal story. It's a story of someone incarcerated, 395 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 4: someone who had epilepsy and schizophrenia, someone who was a 396 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 4: sex worker. She was in ballroom culture, walk in face, honey, 397 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,239 Speaker 4: she was all of these different things, but also a 398 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 4: black trans person or with Queer Chronicles. The podcast you 399 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 4: were talking about that just released. This is a podcast 400 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 4: focused on how we can get queer and trans folks 401 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 4: to tell their stories on their own terms. So while 402 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 4: I'm a host of the show, I really feel like 403 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 4: I'm just the facilitator for folks to tell their story 404 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 4: right And this first season focuses on trans Tenes, queer 405 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 4: and trans Tenes, and political battleground states right now in 406 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, telling their own stories, unfiltered with as 407 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 4: minimal intervention from my MOODI old ass as possible. 408 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 3: Not molding. 409 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 4: But there are black trans youth right There's one young 410 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 4: person named Safara, another one named Indigo who is a 411 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 4: part of this larger collective of queer and trans kids 412 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 4: of varying backgrounds and experiences telling their stories in Alabama 413 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 4: and Texas and on and on. So that purpose is 414 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 4: there whatever I do. And so I think that that 415 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 4: figuring out what your purpose is key. 416 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's so much misinformation and disinformation that 417 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: media spews that is just you know, necessitates real narratives, 418 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: and podcasts are really good at doing that, and it 419 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: seems like Queer Chronicles is a perfect example of a 420 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: space where people can just tell their own stories. But 421 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: I think the thing that's cool about podcasting, and this 422 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: kind of podcast specifically, is that it's like in this 423 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: tradition of the oral narratives, the Works Progress Administration or 424 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: you know, WPA, or it's like a lot of the 425 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: times we wouldn't we wouldn't hear those people, we wouldn't 426 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: know their stories, and so that's so powerful. But I 427 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: also wonder if you think that there are any limitations 428 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: of storytelling and how it can lead to collective liberation. 429 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: Do you think there are any ways in which storytelling 430 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: falls short and can be supplemented with other actions. 431 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 4: Well, I don't think storytelling falls short when it's rooted 432 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 4: and truth. I think storytelling can be damaging just like 433 00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 4: anything else. Right, it's not inherently benevolent. Donald Trump is storyteller. 434 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 4: He's telling a story of power by any means necessary, 435 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 4: on the backs of folks on the margins and that's 436 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 4: not just folks of color and religious minorities and queer 437 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 4: and trans folks and women. That's also a huge part 438 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:25,959 Speaker 4: of his base, poor people, working class people, middle class people. 439 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 4: So storytelling can be used negatively, right. We also see 440 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 4: storytelling being negative when folks aren't curious enough or are 441 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 4: invested in their existing ignorances and fears. We see it 442 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 4: on the Shade Room, right. We see it on other 443 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 4: blog and niche media platforms that will throw up an 444 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 4: image of a queer, trans or in a non conforming person, 445 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 4: or put a baby mama on blast or whatever and 446 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 4: let the audience chip away at that person's humanity. Yeah, 447 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 4: without any kind of intervention, because it's all about engagements 448 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 4: and clicks, and that pulls us away from seeing the 449 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 4: humanity and other black people. 450 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: It's very disturbing, and I think we've been very desensitized 451 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: to it at this point. 452 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 4: We have, so storytelling can be used negatively. I do 453 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 4: think it is a skill that everyone needs to be 454 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,959 Speaker 4: able to tap into. It will enrich everyone's lives, no 455 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 4: matter what industry or sector that you're in, to be 456 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 4: able to articulate who you are, your story, your history, 457 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 4: where you hope to go your dreams. That's liberating, and 458 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 4: you're right, it's just one thing we have to be doing. 459 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 4: Other actions have to be invested in material change. We 460 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 4: have to be clear about where resources are going. You know, 461 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:15,959 Speaker 4: there's a reason people are talking about boycotting genocidal regimes 462 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 4: and societies right now, particularly thinking about what's happening to 463 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 4: our Palestinian famine folks in Gaza. I think figuring out 464 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 4: your part in civic duty is key. It's not just 465 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 4: about the presidential election. It is about oftentimes these local 466 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 4: and state elections right where we are seeing a lot 467 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 4: of this damaging legislation being moved, not just around LGBTQ 468 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 4: plus people and keeping transit from being protected in schools, 469 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 4: but we also see the fight against what people are 470 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 4: saying is critical race theory right, which is really a 471 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 4: dog whistle, particularly for black folks other folks of color 472 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 4: from knowing their history in school. So the civic part 473 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 4: is also important as well. 474 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: Are there any parts of your story where you feel 475 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: like you didn't say enough or you said too much 476 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: in your book? 477 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 4: No, moments of tension and conflict that were major in 478 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 4: the book. I had conversations with those folks, and so 479 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 4: those relationships are intact. I will say I had I 480 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 4: was very anxious to share about moments where I felt violated, 481 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 4: whether it was my body. I also felt anxiety over 482 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 4: talking about difficulties and struggles and shortcomings in the workplace. 483 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 4: You know, this is a capitalist society, right, You're not 484 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 4: supposed to talk about your struggles in the workplace. Really, 485 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 4: You're just supposed to pack your bags and go on 486 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 4: if you can. But I think it's necessary as a 487 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 4: black trans woman to be able to name the ways 488 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 4: that I have felt exploited, either in corporate media or 489 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 4: in nonprofits, and the moments where I felt most complicit 490 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 4: in systems of oppression too, because capitalism requires some kind 491 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 4: of exploitation of something or someone even when we don't 492 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 4: see it. 493 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 2: That's I like the memoirs where the person ready it 494 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 2: can kind of point to finger at themselves too and 495 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 2: be like, I ain't do everything perfect, you know, because 496 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 2: we've all been complicit in something. 497 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 3: I ain't all right about what I had, but you know, 498 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 3: I'm telling myself. 499 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: But I really do appreciate the honesty there, because it's 500 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: like you can feel so guilty, like damn, like I'm 501 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 2: the worst person in the world. Like no one else 502 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: has said that they did this and I did that, 503 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 2: or you know, I was part of this workplace. I 504 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: knew I shouldn't been there. I knew I shouldn't have 505 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 2: been the manager there, or you know, telling people this 506 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 2: and that, but you know, I was just doing what 507 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 2: I was told. So I really appreciate it when people can, 508 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 2: you know, do that introspection and say, you know, I've 509 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 2: changed now, I'm different now, but this is what I 510 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 2: was doing back then. 511 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 512 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: Now you can have a different understanding and shifting perspective 513 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: when you're reading somebody else going through their own internal 514 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: processes and be like, maybe I need to rethink that 515 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: or change. 516 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 3: The way I'm doing things and moving. 517 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,240 Speaker 1: And I'm curious too about you use the word truth. 518 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit about social media earlier 519 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: and authenticity and how we can construct these different personas 520 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: depending upon the medium that we're expressing ourselves through. What 521 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: does what is truth and authenticity to you? You know, 522 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: I think this is a kind of an age old 523 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: thing that we think about in storytelling. You know, even 524 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,919 Speaker 1: like Ida B. Wells had the quote, I can't remember 525 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: that exact quote, but around shining the light of truth 526 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: on things. What does truth and authenticity mean to you 527 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: in general? In storytelling capacity and in telling black stories, 528 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: in trans stories and Southern stories. 529 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 4: I think the most useful or impactful type of truth 530 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 4: to me is the one that is steeped in vulnerability. 531 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 4: I don't know how you really get to authenticity without 532 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 4: valuing vulnerability too, because with vulnerability comes low risk, right 533 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 4: that you know, it is all up in the title 534 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 4: of this book, the risk it takes the bloom, right. 535 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 4: But I think there's risk in showing your fears. There's 536 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,439 Speaker 4: risk in showing your anxieties and insecurities. But I think 537 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 4: once those are laid out on the table, then we 538 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 4: really know what we're working with, right, and then may 539 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 4: maybe we have more of an opportunity to utilize those 540 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 4: things as fertilizer, as I say in the epilogue of 541 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 4: the book, to imagine and dream and build something new 542 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 4: and leave something better behind for the next folks. So 543 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 4: for me, that is necessary. What I think about, for instance, 544 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 4: all of these moments of transphobia that we witness of 545 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 4: course in society, but also just in culture in general. 546 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 4: You know, whether it's just hilarious talking about her thoughts 547 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 4: around trans women, but it's really coming from a deep 548 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 4: wounded place of feeling like she's not woman enough or 549 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 4: that her identity has been shredded up because trans people 550 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 4: are demanding that we're respected and treated with honor and dignity. 551 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 4: And she's not the only one that feels that way. 552 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 4: We all know a handful, if not more, of since 553 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 4: women in particular, who feel like trans women threaten their existence. 554 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 4: And then we can also talk about what it's like 555 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 4: for black women who have never been fully respected in 556 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 4: their womanhood in comparison to a white ideal, and what 557 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 4: it means to have someone else right beside them demanding 558 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 4: to be seen and respected to That's a wound, honey, 559 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 4: But that is also a truth that we can't get 560 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 4: to if we hide it behind Oh well, this is 561 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 4: just what I've always known, or I don't want to 562 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 4: know these new things, or no, honey, like, let's figure 563 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,959 Speaker 4: out what's at the root of this problem. Or Dave 564 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 4: Chappelle right, it's not really that he thinks trans folks 565 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,720 Speaker 4: aren't real or valid. In fact, it's his anxieties about 566 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 4: the truth that we are real and what that may 567 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 4: mean about his masculinity, that he, now in a time 568 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 4: when we're more visible than ever before and discussed more 569 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 4: than ever before, can't ignore us and can't look away. 570 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,919 Speaker 4: And so if he, as a cis hat black man, 571 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 4: is perceiving the fact that particularly trans women exists, what 572 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 4: does that mean for him in relation to us? That's 573 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 4: an anxiety, that's a fear. But I think that's the 574 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,439 Speaker 4: deeper truth than all the lines of a horrible joke 575 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 4: that he or Just Hilarious could write. 576 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,720 Speaker 2: When you were writing the Risk It Takes a Bloom, 577 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 2: did you have the Just Hilariouses and the Dave Chappelle's 578 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 2: of the world in mind for them to read it 579 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 2: and gain something for it? Or were you like, this 580 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 2: is for the folks who are already in al shit 581 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 2: with the trans community. 582 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 4: I knew that all types of people would read it. 583 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 4: I don't know that the Just Hilariouses or the Dave 584 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 4: Chappelle's would read it. You know, I wasn't thinking of 585 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 4: them as my audience, right, at least not my core audience. 586 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 4: Maybe they are an audience two three times removed, right, 587 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 4: like a cousin you've never met. But my core audience 588 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 4: has been well. I think probably the most important audience 589 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 4: member is me period. I know, you know, you know 590 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 4: what is it Tony Morrison who says that, you know, 591 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 4: we have to write the stories that we want to see. 592 00:40:54,680 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 4: For me, as a black trans woman, to imagine myself 593 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 4: as the audience, it's different, it's rare, It's something we 594 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 4: need more of. If I thought about trying to speak 595 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:19,360 Speaker 4: to a particular audience, there's a certain amount of myself 596 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 4: that I would have to dilute down in a race, 597 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 4: because I know that to be black and to be 598 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 4: trans is not the average experience. I am on the 599 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 4: margins of margins, and so to take that power back, 600 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 4: I had to be able to say and care the 601 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 4: most about what I think, but also what black trans 602 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 4: people think, right, because your people know when you own 603 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 4: some bullshit and when you're not, and they're gonna tell 604 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 4: you because they are your people. And so whatever I 605 00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 4: can do to honor and be real to my community 606 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 4: about black trans folks, that's what I'm invested at. 607 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 2: So now it is time for role credits, the segment 608 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 2: where we give credit to a person, place, or thing 609 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 2: that we encountered during the week, and we have our 610 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 2: guests Raquel joining us, But first, Eves, who are. 611 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 3: What would you like to give credit to? 612 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,959 Speaker 1: So? I think just in general on the show and today, 613 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: we've been talking a lot about personal narratives, So I 614 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: want to give credit to all of the black writers 615 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,720 Speaker 1: and authors in history, and people like Ida b Wells 616 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,399 Speaker 1: and the estates of those ancestors families who put their 617 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: letters and archives so we're able to read those correspondences 618 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: between people like you know, James Baldwin and Ida b 619 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: Wells and everybody else who has letters that we can 620 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 1: read today. 621 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 2: Okay, I would like to give credit to all the 622 00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 2: girls celebrating rama. Don you know, I think Islam is 623 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 2: a beautiful religion, and you know, folks be lying on 624 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 2: the Muslims all the time, and I believe what they 625 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 2: say about y'all. I know y'all peaceful, and I know 626 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:14,760 Speaker 2: you've been going through it. 627 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 4: And I rock with y'all. 628 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 2: For Raquel, who are what would you like to give 629 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 2: credit to? 630 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 4: I want to give credit to a friend, Tourmaline, a 631 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 4: powerful black trans filmmaker and activists. She's in the Whitney Biennial. 632 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 4: She has this film called Pollinator, and it draws on 633 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,760 Speaker 4: the enduring legacy of Marsha P. Johnson and the flower 634 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 4: crowns that she used to wear. And I just think 635 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 4: that her work is just beautiful and a lot of 636 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 4: us would not be having the conversations we have about 637 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 4: Marsha P. Johnson or Sylvia Rivera without some of the 638 00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,799 Speaker 4: archival work that Tourmaline has been crucial in uncovering. 639 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 2: So oh, I gotta check that come out. Thank you 640 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,359 Speaker 2: for letting us know about that, and thank you for 641 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 2: joining us. It was so great talking to you. 642 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank y'all for these insightful questions. 643 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,359 Speaker 1: Thank you, and is there anything you'll want to shout out? 644 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,399 Speaker 1: And can you also tell us where they can find 645 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: you on social media? 646 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, you can find me at rockel Willis on all 647 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 4: platforms rockel Willis dot com. And the book is The 648 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 4: Risk It Takes The Bloom on Life and Liberation. The 649 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,919 Speaker 4: audiobook is out now, so check it out. And then 650 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,839 Speaker 4: the two podcasts we mentioned, one is Queer Chronicles and 651 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 4: the other is Afterlives. These are available wherever you get podcasts. 652 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 2: Nice thank you, Raquel, thank you tuning in to those shows. 653 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 2: And with that, we will see you next week. 654 00:44:53,719 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 1: File On then is a production of Heart Radio and 655 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco 656 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. 657 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,959 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also 658 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,760 Speaker 1: send us an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. 659 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 1: Head to on Theme dot Show to check out the 660 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 661 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 662 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:28,959 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.