Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Currict and this is next question.
Speaker 1: You are going to love this week's guest if you're
Speaker 1: not already smitten. He's the co host of the cult
Speaker 1: favorite podcast Lost Culture ristaag. He's killing it on Saturday
Speaker 1: Night Live. Oh no, babe, you cannot stop TikTok. We
Speaker 1: took videos and we made them shorter. We took babies
Speaker 1: and we made them cuter. We took lip things and
Speaker 1: we made them straight. Not to mention all sorts of
Speaker 1: guest spots on hit comedy shows like Aquafina's Nora from Queens,
Speaker 1: You're Dumplings, Look like the Pillsbury dood Boy Got Hate Crimes,
Speaker 1: and The New Girls five Beba. I just shook. This
Speaker 1: is real, pet, that's right. He's Bowen Yang. Wow, thank
Speaker 1: you for having me. This is um This is very thrilling.
Speaker 1: We got the full Bowen picture, from how we developed
Speaker 1: his great sense of humor to how is Sketch about
Speaker 1: an Iceberg became an Internet since station, But we started
Speaker 1: by talking about his success and what he makes of it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, Katie, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: what do you make of it? Like? How should I be?
Speaker 1: I feel like you've talked to so many people that
Speaker 1: you must have some mental model of like what the
Speaker 1: best mindset is for people. Well, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: feel like you were kind of destined for this moment
Speaker 1: and this opportunity. No no, no, no no, just reading
Speaker 1: all about you and your life and you know the
Speaker 1: fact that your high school voted to you most likely
Speaker 1: to appear on SNL, which is so funny and it's
Speaker 1: just listen. It's just sort of everything kind of came together,
Speaker 1: and so I hope you're enjoying it. I hope you're
Speaker 1: not so neurotic that you can't be like, wow, this
Speaker 1: is pretty eff and cool. Well, I thank you for
Speaker 1: saying that, because I think that has that has been
Speaker 1: something that's like not held me back in any way.
Speaker 1: But I whatever, I mean, you you probably can relate
Speaker 1: to this. They asked me to write this like commencement
Speaker 1: speechie thing for this like um whatever, this podcast that's
Speaker 1: like putting out commencement speeches. And I wrote something, and
Speaker 1: I thought about I thought back to my own commencement,
Speaker 1: like my graduation experiences, and the theme for both of
Speaker 1: those was that I was not present, that I was
Speaker 1: just living in anxiety about what was coming next, and
Speaker 1: I wish that I had sort of like understood that,
Speaker 1: you know, commencement ceremonies like that are important for this,
Speaker 1: like they're important unto themselves, Like they're important because you
Speaker 1: don't because life doesn't give you opportunities to like ceremoniously
Speaker 1: celebrate yourself in any way or like where you're at.
Speaker 1: And I think I have very kind I wrote that,
Speaker 1: and then I consciously thought, wow, maybe I should do this,
Speaker 1: like this should apply to me now right, like I
Speaker 1: should be kind of sitting very still whenever I can,
Speaker 1: with the idea that like, wow, this is this is why,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is really special and I am living
Speaker 1: the suxceptional thing that I think has happened both serendipitously
Speaker 1: and fortuitously but also through through work, and like there's
Speaker 1: there's there's a way to think about that in some
Speaker 1: balanced way. And then my parents were in town this weekend. Um,
Speaker 1: I saw your mom on Saturday night. She was so cute.
Speaker 1: I loved her kissing you and then trying to yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a good beat. It was a really cute
Speaker 1: Did you guys come up with that together? That was
Speaker 1: something that the writers of The Cold Open, Sudie Green
Speaker 1: and Friend Gillespie did and I mean they had to
Speaker 1: write some quick little comedy. They did a great job.
Speaker 1: And I mean my my mom had a blast and
Speaker 1: she had a lot of compliments from from people at
Speaker 1: the show, being like, I mean prop work that is
Speaker 1: that is not easy, that's very technical on TV and
Speaker 1: so but yeah, I means she was in town and
Speaker 1: she was even she turned to me yesterday she goes,
Speaker 1: but when you're very lucky to be doing what you're doing,
Speaker 1: and I go, yeah, you're right, Like I kind of
Speaker 1: I have gotten to some like jaded points in recent
Speaker 1: in the past year that I've thought, oh God, like
Speaker 1: this is I'm I'm sort of like just kind of
Speaker 1: going through the motions sometimes and thinking that it's not
Speaker 1: something that I I'm doing with the enthusiasm that I
Speaker 1: want to have. Does that make sense? Yeah, But I
Speaker 1: also think the pandemic sort of screwed everybody up, So
Speaker 1: I think you should give yourself a pass on kind
Speaker 1: of feeling some ambivalence, right, Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1: I just but yeah, I mean, like, I but you're right,
Speaker 1: like this is I should be sitting with this with
Speaker 1: as little to rosy as as possible, or or in
Speaker 1: some healthy positioning where I don't have to think about
Speaker 1: how God do I deserve this? Do I this? Do
Speaker 1: I that? Yeah? Yeah, and you know, just enjoying it
Speaker 1: because you know it's interesting because the work is work,
Speaker 1: but it's also work that clearly you have been sort
Speaker 1: of training for in one way or another your whole life.
Speaker 1: And sure and preparing for this interview. I loved hearing
Speaker 1: sort of your really fascinating life story about your mom
Speaker 1: and dad. They're both born in China, Yes, and both
Speaker 1: very accomplished, right. Your dad's an engineer, uh sort of
Speaker 1: with mining expertise, your mom is an ob g y
Speaker 1: n UM and you all came to this country. Where
Speaker 1: did where did they first move? So they first moved
Speaker 1: They met in China, and they first moved to Brisbane, Australia,
Speaker 1: where my dad was getting his doctorate. And then at
Speaker 1: that point my mom sort of made the sacrifice to um,
Speaker 1: I mean her, her her license didn't just transfer over
Speaker 1: when she when she moved out of China, and so
Speaker 1: she was sort of just making sure that we were
Speaker 1: all kind of that the children were being raised for
Speaker 1: a while before she got back into work. When we
Speaker 1: moved to Canada, we moved to Kingston, Ontario then and
Speaker 1: then um Montreal, UM, and then that's where my sister
Speaker 1: and I were up until we were up until I
Speaker 1: was like eight or nine, and then we moved to Denver,
Speaker 1: Colorado in n and then I grew up there until
Speaker 1: end of high school and then moved here in New
Speaker 1: York to New York for college and I've just been
Speaker 1: here ever since. But yeah, it's then that that's like
Speaker 1: a really crazy little commonwealth pall thing that they've played. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And your parents, do your parents still live in Aurora
Speaker 1: or where do they live now? They're in Aurora. My
Speaker 1: mom just retired a month ago, and it's looking good
Speaker 1: on her and she but now so so now she's
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, UM with my sister and she's raising two
Speaker 1: kids there and so my and so my mom's helping out,
Speaker 1: and so it's it's it's at all. She just seems
Speaker 1: I mean, she seems like genuinely happy and relaxed and
Speaker 1: in a good state that I haven't really sort of
Speaker 1: been able to like see up close in a while
Speaker 1: because of because of work, because of the pandemic and
Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean, like I I took in a
Speaker 1: moment of gratitude last night when I you know, went
Speaker 1: out with them for for for dinner, and I was
Speaker 1: just like, okay, like I can just sort of soak
Speaker 1: this moment into where like I see my mom and
Speaker 1: dad being sort of happy and it all sort of
Speaker 1: aligned correctly after like a whole life to my lifetime
Speaker 1: of just like hardship and sacrifice, and then letting me
Speaker 1: know that like, you know, you wouldn't have been born,
Speaker 1: you're the second child, you wouldn't have been born if
Speaker 1: we had stayed in China, you know, like they sort
Speaker 1: of they don't like very spitefully remind me of that,
Speaker 1: but they But every now and then my mom will
Speaker 1: be like, you know, sometimes I think about what would
Speaker 1: have happened, but what our lives would have been like
Speaker 1: if we if your dad and I had stayed in China,
Speaker 1: and and then that would have meant that I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been born with them the one child only policy,
Speaker 1: And so every now and then that kind of really
Speaker 1: messes with me on an existential level. But then I think, oh,
Speaker 1: but then I should that just means I should be
Speaker 1: even more grateful, you know, or whatever. I should just
Speaker 1: experience this on a sensory level. Let's talk about growing up.
Speaker 1: Because were you always the funny kid Bowen? Were you
Speaker 1: the guy? Were you the class clown? Well? I was.
Speaker 1: It was something that was like assigned to me in
Speaker 1: a way, or it was just like a mirrored like
Speaker 1: someone would tell you. Someone would tell me, oh, you're
Speaker 1: you're funny, or you're like you're being a little like
Speaker 1: you're being the class clown in a way that that
Speaker 1: was either pejorative or complimentary. And so because we would
Speaker 1: move around a lot, and even like in Canada we
Speaker 1: switched I I switched schools once or twice. It was
Speaker 1: a thing where you had to adapt and as a kid,
Speaker 1: that's very sort of tumultuous. But then the move from
Speaker 1: Canada from Quebec, where I spoke French in school and
Speaker 1: English was like the tertiary language literally because it was
Speaker 1: French in school, you know, Mandarin and at home uh
Speaker 1: and then English every now and then when you would
Speaker 1: like run into like when a babysitter, bird come over
Speaker 1: or something. Um. But then moving from Quebec to Denver,
Speaker 1: was this this this really intense shock I know, it
Speaker 1: seems like Canada and in the US are similar enough,
Speaker 1: but it was this thing where I was like, oh gosh,
Speaker 1: like this is a whole new culture, you know. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think I realized that even as a kid, um,
Speaker 1: because I was moving to Colorado right after Johnny Ramsay,
Speaker 1: which happened in Boulder and in Columbine, and I was like,
Speaker 1: Colorado is the place where the people get murdered. And
Speaker 1: I was just like so terrified. Um as like you
Speaker 1: know an eight year old and nine year old that
Speaker 1: I was like, uh, I think I went to school.
Speaker 1: I remember the first day of school, going into the
Speaker 1: fourth grade, just feeling anxious and just feeling like, um,
Speaker 1: just going into that kid logic of being like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, my mom's gonna drop me off and then
Speaker 1: she's gonna get into a car accident and I'm gonna,
Speaker 1: you know, be an orphan. It's really fourth So you
Speaker 1: you were very cognizant of Jampany Ramsey and Columbine at
Speaker 1: what eight or nine years old? Yeah, because I mean
Speaker 1: it was all over the news. I mean back then
Speaker 1: it was like all believe me because I covered all
Speaker 1: that stuff. Yeah. But that's interesting that it kind of
Speaker 1: uh seeped into your mindset and made you anxious, understandably totally.
Speaker 1: And it was the thing that um, you know, teachers
Speaker 1: in Montreal would be like, well, Bowen, Bowen's maybe into
Speaker 1: Colorado to the US and we all know what happened
Speaker 1: there recently. It was kind of like that, I mean,
Speaker 1: very morbid, very very very very very sad and scary.
Speaker 1: Goot get him. And then I remember going to school, um,
Speaker 1: not knowing how to make friends, not really being able
Speaker 1: to speak the language. And then um, by like the
Speaker 1: second week at recess, I had cheered up enough girls
Speaker 1: who were who are who were like crying because someone
Speaker 1: had said something mean to them or something that I'd
Speaker 1: like run over there and like just try to like
Speaker 1: get them, get them to stop crying or something, and
Speaker 1: just because it made me upset to see them so
Speaker 1: so upset. And that by like the third week of school,
Speaker 1: this girl Victoria Results, and I've I've run into her
Speaker 1: recently and I've told her this story, but she was like, oh,
Speaker 1: when you're so funny, And that was like this like
Speaker 1: someone conferring upon me this identity that I was, you know,
Speaker 1: funny or I could like turn something on to to
Speaker 1: make someone laugh or something elicit that out of them,
Speaker 1: and then and then from there, like I really kind
Speaker 1: of attached myself to that in a deep point. I
Speaker 1: was like, well, this is my purpose in life is
Speaker 1: to like do this. Um, but it sounds like it
Speaker 1: was mixed with a lot of empathy. You know, that
Speaker 1: you were very conscious of when people were suffering, Like
Speaker 1: a lot of kids probably wouldn't go over there and
Speaker 1: help someone who had been hurt, So that it's kind
Speaker 1: of an an unusual quality for a little boy, specially.
Speaker 1: I don't mean to gender no, but um, I think
Speaker 1: it takes a certain emotional intelligence to kind of pick
Speaker 1: up on those things and to go to someone's rescue
Speaker 1: that way. So you did have empathy along with the
Speaker 1: ability to make people laugh, right, Oh my gosh. I
Speaker 1: mean the fact that you are observing this out of
Speaker 1: like immediately kind of picking up on this after I
Speaker 1: after I sort of share that is is why you're
Speaker 1: Katie correct. But anyway, but yeah, I guess, I guess.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so you you became sort of the funny guy.
Speaker 1: And you not only became the funny guy, but you
Speaker 1: also were obsessed with SNL. What at what age did
Speaker 1: you start watching the show? I mean it probably a
Speaker 1: too young age because it was right when I moved
Speaker 1: to the US. And I don't believe we got it
Speaker 1: in Canada back then in the nine in the late nineties,
Speaker 1: because I didn't hear about it until I moved to
Speaker 1: the U s And then I forgot who was the
Speaker 1: host one day, um, one one week, but my sister
Speaker 1: told me about, Um, I'm going over to my friend's
Speaker 1: house to watch this show called SNL. I was like,
Speaker 1: I haven't heard of that, and she goes, oh, it's
Speaker 1: the show where it's you know, little comedy skits is
Speaker 1: how she described it. And you know, there's a celebrity
Speaker 1: each week that comes in and is in all of them.
Speaker 1: I was like, that sounds so cool. And then a
Speaker 1: friend at school had also just been a fan of
Speaker 1: the show. And this was back in like the CHERRYO
Speaker 1: Terry Will Ferrell, Chris Kitan era, and so it was
Speaker 1: all very broad and big and wacky and don't do drugs.
Speaker 1: Who yeah, oh my god, I mean the Spartans like
Speaker 1: that was like that was like my way in and
Speaker 1: you know, and and I was Charlie's there, and that
Speaker 1: was my first episode that I ever saw, Charlie's theren
Speaker 1: was was the host there, and I went over to
Speaker 1: my friend's house to watch it on a Saturday night.
Speaker 1: It was the neighbor's house and so I think my
Speaker 1: parents like them my parents. It was just a dinner
Speaker 1: party situation. And then it was Saturday, and so we
Speaker 1: stayed up and launched and I thought, wow, this is
Speaker 1: this is so cool and it's live. I mean, it
Speaker 1: just it was just so many. It was just such
Speaker 1: a get me up to speed on what American pop
Speaker 1: culture was because I wasn't super tapped into it growing up,
Speaker 1: even just in Canada before we moved, wasn't super tapped
Speaker 1: into it because my parents, you know, forbade cable. They
Speaker 1: were like no cable, no TV whatever, all that stuff.
Speaker 1: And then on Saturdays I would get to watch and
Speaker 1: that was sort of my way of like learning and
Speaker 1: getting the download on like what was happening in the world,
Speaker 1: you know, and did when did you think? God, I
Speaker 1: want to be on that show. I would love to
Speaker 1: be in that ecosystem of SNL. I mean like with
Speaker 1: I mean like pretty immediately, but I never I would
Speaker 1: never even allow yourself why I wouldn't. I wouldn't even
Speaker 1: conceive of the idea of I would be that that
Speaker 1: that I would be on the show, and not for
Speaker 1: any representation reason necessarily, but just because I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like it's such a big chasm of
Speaker 1: like of like knowing of of having the idea of
Speaker 1: all I want to be on SNL to being on SNL,
Speaker 1: like I did not know. I remember going on. I
Speaker 1: was curious about it enough to like go on to
Speaker 1: like online like message boards on like IMDb or something
Speaker 1: back when they had message boards, um, and it was
Speaker 1: just looked into what the audition process was or a
Speaker 1: researched like what Will Ferrell's audition process was, you know,
Speaker 1: and seeing that, you know, you had to sort of
Speaker 1: go through a program, some some developmental program at some
Speaker 1: comedy theater too to to get noticed by a scout,
Speaker 1: I was just like, that sounds so foreign to me,
Speaker 1: and I have no idea what the entry point is,
Speaker 1: and so I'm just going to maybe resign myself to
Speaker 1: being like a fan from AFAR for the rest of
Speaker 1: my life. And I was completely okay with I'd like
Speaker 1: accepted that pretty pretty quickly. I want to say it
Speaker 1: turns out he didn't have to accept that after all, Diddy,
Speaker 1: We're going to get to SNL a little bit later
Speaker 1: in our conversation, but coming up conversion therapy and Bowen's
Speaker 1: complicated coming out story that's right after this. Before you
Speaker 1: go to n y U. You're in high school and
Speaker 1: your mom and dad discovered that you're gay, and uh,
Speaker 1: tell me about what that was like. And I'm curious
Speaker 1: if if it was you know, at the if there
Speaker 1: was any kind of cultural aspect to them understanding you know,
Speaker 1: your your sexual preference because of being from China, and
Speaker 1: just I'm fascinated by that. Can you set the stage
Speaker 1: and how they discovered it and what happened? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I might. I might be bouncing back and forth between
Speaker 1: some some things that come back to me. But I
Speaker 1: came home one day. It was senior year of high school,
Speaker 1: and I'd come out to friends sophomore year of high
Speaker 1: school at that point. Um, and then especially after my
Speaker 1: sister left for college, My sister goes to n y U.
Speaker 1: So then at that point she's not there to like
Speaker 1: be this you know, liaison between me and my parents.
Speaker 1: I mean she because she would sort of keep an
Speaker 1: eye on me at school and and sort of keep
Speaker 1: me straight I mean figuratively speaking. Um. Uh So then
Speaker 1: by the time she left for college, I felt some
Speaker 1: like self definition, self awareness sort of kind of happening. Um.
Speaker 1: And then it was like, you know, I'm gay. I
Speaker 1: can tell my friends. I'm going to keep it a
Speaker 1: secret from my parents, just because I knew that this
Speaker 1: was something that they would have, um a hard time
Speaker 1: understanding because of this cultural element of coming from China,
Speaker 1: where um, you'd watch a movie or something there'd be
Speaker 1: a gay character or a gay kiss or something, and
Speaker 1: I'd hear my dad especially say, this is so, this
Speaker 1: is crazy, like that we never we never had people
Speaker 1: like this in China. And he and he and he
Speaker 1: grew up in you know, in a very rural area.
Speaker 1: Um it's I mean like these like this arid farm
Speaker 1: in the middle of the desert and and and and
Speaker 1: mainly in China, and so um it's not that he
Speaker 1: but but but to him, I mean, he sort of
Speaker 1: understood as fact that like there were no gay, queer
Speaker 1: people at all where he grew up. But it's just
Speaker 1: he still has a hard I still have a hard
Speaker 1: time explaining to him. No, it's not that they weren't
Speaker 1: gay people where he gripped at. It's that you just
Speaker 1: didn't know about them, um or they kept it a
Speaker 1: secret or something. And I come home one day from
Speaker 1: from class senior year. I meanwhile, I mean the signs
Speaker 1: were there, the signals were there. I was I was
Speaker 1: big into theater. I you know, I most of my
Speaker 1: friends were just like I just had a certain sensibility
Speaker 1: about them. And so I came home one day, uh,
Speaker 1: to an open chat window that I had just like
Speaker 1: just it was. It was very salacious, not so clean
Speaker 1: chat window that I had open. And then my my
Speaker 1: mother had printed out this this exchange and sort of
Speaker 1: had me go through it and just be like you
Speaker 1: you you have to explain this. And then pretty quickly,
Speaker 1: um my dad comes home and it's just me. It's
Speaker 1: just it's just the three of us at home. My
Speaker 1: sisters off in college, so it's the three of us
Speaker 1: just having these long, long, painful conference, painful conversations. I
Speaker 1: just had to be like, yeah, this is this is
Speaker 1: this is it. This is who I am. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't me coming out on my own terms, but at
Speaker 1: that point I just had to own up to it
Speaker 1: because there had been like suspicions before that, my pay
Speaker 1: that there had been things that my parents just kind
Speaker 1: of decided to look the other way on. Um. But
Speaker 1: this was finally a time where I thought, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm about to go I'm about to go to college.
Speaker 1: I don't want to keep secrets from them. I've been
Speaker 1: found out, but I might as well own up to it.
Speaker 1: How did they react? Do you remember I had not
Speaker 1: seen my father cry since I don't only my father
Speaker 1: cry once, and that was when my grandfather passed away,
Speaker 1: when his father passed away. And then I was coming
Speaker 1: home to him and my mother crying every single day
Speaker 1: for like two weeks and just being like and just
Speaker 1: truly feeling that, um, viscerally, I had done something wrong,
Speaker 1: that I had caused them pain and pain at a
Speaker 1: level that I had not seen from my dad. Um.
Speaker 1: And just like you know Asian soap opera, heaving sobs
Speaker 1: from both of them and just must have been really
Speaker 1: painful for you as a high school senior too, to
Speaker 1: witness that. Sure, yeah, absolutely, and and so and so
Speaker 1: I mean with that, with that sort of context, and
Speaker 1: with the context of them being these two scientifically minded
Speaker 1: people and these these immigrants who had like sacrificed so much.
Speaker 1: I mean, the idea of me moving to a country
Speaker 1: where I didn't speak the language and I would be
Speaker 1: like automatically in the minority, it just as wild to me.
Speaker 1: Wild to me, and and and I didn't take that
Speaker 1: for granted back then. And then they also were solutions
Speaker 1: oriented people, and so to them. I mean, my dad
Speaker 1: didn't understand sort of the what the cultural forces behind
Speaker 1: what conversion therapy meant, but he was he was out
Speaker 1: here looking for solutions and he came across a solution
Speaker 1: one day. I come home a couple of weeks after I, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the chat window had been printed out. I
Speaker 1: came home to my dad presenting to me this sheet
Speaker 1: of paper, this this website that he'd printed out of
Speaker 1: this you know, the therapist who was based out of
Speaker 1: Colorado Springs, UM, who specialized in this, in this conversion therapy.
Speaker 1: And he said, we are going to go down there
Speaker 1: once a week. And it's a it's a two hour drive,
Speaker 1: two hour right each way, but we're gonna go We're
Speaker 1: gonna go there once a week, UM, and you're gonna
Speaker 1: talk to this man and it will be for eight sessions.
Speaker 1: It'll be through the summer. And the ultimatum was if
Speaker 1: you if you go to these sessions, then you can
Speaker 1: go to college out of state. And I all I
Speaker 1: had wanted was to was to leave Colorado for school
Speaker 1: and just and be in New York or being I mean,
Speaker 1: my choices were between U C l A and n
Speaker 1: y U. Those are my final two choices. And then
Speaker 1: they had kind of given me this ultimatum to be like,
Speaker 1: you can go to those schools if you go to
Speaker 1: this this therapy. And again, I mean, but I also
Speaker 1: wanted just like put that in context. It was not
Speaker 1: like a threat. It was just like, please just do
Speaker 1: this for us. I mean it was it was the
Speaker 1: dynamic of this was it was constantly shifting. It was
Speaker 1: either I was I was doing something wrong or that
Speaker 1: they were, or that they were in more pain than
Speaker 1: I was. I mean, it was very hard to gauge um,
Speaker 1: and for me as a seventeen year old to be like,
Speaker 1: what what is what is going on? Um? So as
Speaker 1: I just went with it because I had never seen
Speaker 1: my parents this miserable. I was like, I have to
Speaker 1: do right by them in some way for them to
Speaker 1: stop feeling this this pain. UM. So then I mean,
Speaker 1: by then I had I had sort of decided to
Speaker 1: go to n y U because my sister was there.
Speaker 1: And that was also another element of it, because they
Speaker 1: my parents would feel better about me going to n
Speaker 1: y U because my sister could be there as sort
Speaker 1: of this chaperone figure. Um. But yeah, I went to
Speaker 1: eight sessions of this um conversion therapy and what was that?
Speaker 1: What was conversion therapy like going? You know, it was
Speaker 1: actually at banal overall, which which kind of surprises people,
Speaker 1: like it wasn't like the melodramatic thing of like electrodes
Speaker 1: or whatever it was. It was. It was it was
Speaker 1: me and and and the people who to do experience that.
Speaker 1: Um gosh, I mean, there's I'm very lucky that that's
Speaker 1: not what that was for me. UM. But what it
Speaker 1: was for me was this easing into this like framework
Speaker 1: that UM, same sex attractions are like un uncouth or
Speaker 1: should be undesirable or um are morally sort of wrong.
Speaker 1: And you know the first few sessions were pretty standard,
Speaker 1: just resembled talk therapy, resembled like even the therapy that
Speaker 1: I have. Now I'm like, oh, this is remarkably similar
Speaker 1: to what I my first experience with this, which was
Speaker 1: under these very wild pretenses um, but that and by
Speaker 1: the fourth or fifth session, he had started to sort
Speaker 1: of work in this thing of like, okay, let's go
Speaker 1: through one by one or or as specifically as you can,
Speaker 1: like instances where you felt attracted to another man. And
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, I haven't cataloged all of them
Speaker 1: like individually, but okay, we'll start with this. And then
Speaker 1: he would just kind of try to link those um
Speaker 1: moments to some physical sensation like physical sense memory, and
Speaker 1: then and then it was it would be kind of
Speaker 1: leading questions two, get me to say that I was
Speaker 1: attracted to another man because I was feeling bad about
Speaker 1: myself or because I was in physical discomfort or pain
Speaker 1: or something. And it was just sort of this like
Speaker 1: very insidious way of like trying to tell me or
Speaker 1: internalize this idea that like being gays, to to have
Speaker 1: that your sexual preference is a is a result of
Speaker 1: your external circumstances, that a strange association. And so you
Speaker 1: go through all these sessions for your parents because you
Speaker 1: love them, and as you said, you've never seen them
Speaker 1: so miserable. And did you come home and say or
Speaker 1: did you kind of let sleeping dogs lie head off
Speaker 1: to n y U and just hope that time would
Speaker 1: acclimate them and make them become more accepting. It was
Speaker 1: the ladder, but then even at the bed there was
Speaker 1: like a one inch tall person in my head that
Speaker 1: was like, maybe this, maybe this works, Maybe this works.
Speaker 1: Maybe you go to n y U and everyone tries
Speaker 1: to reinvent themselves in some way when they go to college. Um,
Speaker 1: I was like, maybe you try this on for size
Speaker 1: being straight, and so UM went to m y U
Speaker 1: my freshman year, I move in with my sister. UM
Speaker 1: did not do that, did not do the dorms. Moved
Speaker 1: in with my sister and thought, wow, okay, I mean
Speaker 1: she is the room next to mine. She knows everything
Speaker 1: that I am doing, and that's sort of a that's
Speaker 1: sort of an interesting experience for me to like go
Speaker 1: to college and like still and feel like I'm a family.
Speaker 1: And Um it was. But it was a great time.
Speaker 1: I mean, like she and I still say, like, I
Speaker 1: mean we were great roommates. We were great roommates. Which
Speaker 1: was she accepting though of the fact that you were
Speaker 1: gay or I mean, how where did she come down
Speaker 1: on this? She was put in this very tough spot
Speaker 1: to like mediate both sides, um, just to just to
Speaker 1: truly be someone who had to like communicate between me
Speaker 1: and my parents, whether it was because of a language
Speaker 1: barrier or cultural barrier or whatever, like this is where
Speaker 1: this person is coming from. And and I think both sides,
Speaker 1: both me and my parents were upset at her for
Speaker 1: different reasons at various points. I mean, I remember one time, Um,
Speaker 1: she knocked on my door and sort of slipped um
Speaker 1: or she knocked on my door and she handed me
Speaker 1: this book that was written by some like conversion therapy
Speaker 1: and quack and I was just like, I don't want
Speaker 1: to read that, um. And then she was like, well,
Speaker 1: it would mean a lot to mom and dad if
Speaker 1: you did. And I remember being very upset at her
Speaker 1: for a long time, um, for that specific incident. Um.
Speaker 1: So she was kind of she was trying to keep
Speaker 1: the peace and the family totally. And she and like
Speaker 1: that's its own sort of emotional labor that like I
Speaker 1: still haven't fully like not appreciated, but I haven't fully
Speaker 1: like thought about that in a way that like, oh God,
Speaker 1: like she was in her own tough spot, she was
Speaker 1: in her own personal health when when when that whole
Speaker 1: situation happened, it wasn't even like this side versus that, um.
Speaker 1: It was like my parents sort of expressing some care
Speaker 1: and love for me because they had been socialized to
Speaker 1: think that being gay was um COINI sent me back,
Speaker 1: it was going to put me in danger and all
Speaker 1: these different things, and they were just they were being protective.
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's hard. It's still hard to
Speaker 1: pass out where that protective instinct starts and where the
Speaker 1: homophobia ends or the other way around, you know, And
Speaker 1: how are they feeling. Was there a moment where, uh,
Speaker 1: you felt like your parents kind of adjusted or accepted
Speaker 1: and said this is you know, because it's interesting, I've
Speaker 1: been writing a memoir and I I was looking back
Speaker 1: at how we covered Matthew Shepard and then I interviewed
Speaker 1: Jim o'burghafell, who was the plaintiff in the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: case that legalized same sex marriage. And it's actually really
Speaker 1: unbelievable how far we have come. It's something that we
Speaker 1: don't really it just in the last twenty five years
Speaker 1: or more when it comes to you know, accepting gay relationships, etcetera,
Speaker 1: and really celebrating gay relationships and how are they feeling
Speaker 1: today versus you know, your thirty. So this we're talking
Speaker 1: about twelve years ago, right or twelve or thirteen years ago?
Speaker 1: Have they kind of reached at least maybe an uncomfortable
Speaker 1: acceptance or how are they feeling about it now? I
Speaker 1: think they have reached it? Um, I mean yesterday. I
Speaker 1: mean yeah again, I'm thirty and so uh, naturally they're
Speaker 1: thinking about grandkids for me, I mean kids for me,
Speaker 1: and so they're like, how would you go about that?
Speaker 1: And I'd be like, well, if I wanted if I
Speaker 1: wanted kids, then this is how maybe I would think
Speaker 1: about this or that, and they and they were like, okay, interesting, well,
Speaker 1: and then I brought up I brought up bed Wong Um,
Speaker 1: who who I'm close with and who is um who
Speaker 1: if who I've worked with very recently, and he and
Speaker 1: I have this very sort of mentorment he bond that
Speaker 1: I'm I'm very grateful for. And I brought him up
Speaker 1: and I was like, you know, he's had this center.
Speaker 1: She just naturally came up in conversation and then Um
Speaker 1: slowly sort of revealed that he was gay. Because I
Speaker 1: don't think my parents really realized and then I was like,
Speaker 1: and he has this kid who was in college now.
Speaker 1: And then my dad was like, he was married to
Speaker 1: a woman. I was like, no, um, you know he
Speaker 1: got a surrogate and all this stuff. Um. And then
Speaker 1: he was like interesting. So he I mean, he's he's
Speaker 1: he's adjusting to it. It's not fully inconceivable to him
Speaker 1: that this kind of thing happens in the real world.
Speaker 1: But the if there was a moment. This also involves
Speaker 1: my sister because I had done this interview with Maureen
Speaker 1: Deaf for The New York Times my first season on
Speaker 1: the cast of SNL, and she had sort of in
Speaker 1: her way, I mean, she was just mooring down. She's great,
Speaker 1: but she got she teased out of me these details
Speaker 1: about the conversion there. I mean, I hadn't ever shared
Speaker 1: that in that on that scale or in that public
Speaker 1: way before, and it was just like in the newspaper,
Speaker 1: was on the Sunday Times, and I was just like, whoa,
Speaker 1: this is crazy. And my first thought was, my parents
Speaker 1: are going to be upset in some way that they're
Speaker 1: that um, something this personal as being aired out, and
Speaker 1: that this is something that they're going to have to
Speaker 1: go into work the next day and their coworkers are
Speaker 1: gonna are going to know that this is something that
Speaker 1: they did or you know or whatever. And then my
Speaker 1: sister called me the day after that Peace came out
Speaker 1: and she was like, that profile came out and she
Speaker 1: was like, you know, Mom and Dad read the profile
Speaker 1: and actually they I think they've come to some better
Speaker 1: understanding of like what that time was like for you,
Speaker 1: and that they I think I think they're moving closer
Speaker 1: and closer to just like full on acceptance. And I
Speaker 1: was like, wow, interesting. I mean, that really surprised me
Speaker 1: that that that was their takeaway. Rather than thinking what
Speaker 1: does this mean for me? They were thinking were so
Speaker 1: embarrassed or you know, we're ashamed that we put our
Speaker 1: some through that, right, you know, on so many different
Speaker 1: levels they could have had reactions absolutely, but instead they're
Speaker 1: they're parental thought was, oh, what is what did this
Speaker 1: mean for our son? And I mean I just that
Speaker 1: kind of surprised me and in a very sort of
Speaker 1: meaningful way. Um. So I think it's it's it's been
Speaker 1: very incremental um over the past twelve years, and probably
Speaker 1: like the way that it's been sort of collectively incremental
Speaker 1: um for everybody. We're going to take a short break.
Speaker 1: But when we come back, the grueling SNL audition process
Speaker 1: and that viral Titanic sketch. I think my publicist was
Speaker 1: very clear, I'm not here to talk about the sinking
Speaker 1: that's right after this. What did you major in it?
Speaker 1: N y U? I was the chemist stream major. What
Speaker 1: I was? I was? I was. I was a b
Speaker 1: A in chemistry and not a b S. Most of
Speaker 1: I was a Bachelor in Arts and chemistry. I mean
Speaker 1: that that I was. I was. So I was on
Speaker 1: the premed track. I was thinking, you know, I got
Speaker 1: I gotta hang up the comedy dream because I was
Speaker 1: doing like short form improv in high school and going
Speaker 1: downtown and like, you know this, this one of my
Speaker 1: favorite teachers who I still keep in touch with sort
Speaker 1: of was the sponsor of the improv group in high school,
Speaker 1: was the assistant director at the theater downtown, and so
Speaker 1: like he was my gateway in and UM just was
Speaker 1: that kid, And like on college tours, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool,
Speaker 1: So do you guys have an improv group here? Like
Speaker 1: I was that that guy, UM for better or worse.
Speaker 1: But then I go to N y U, and I
Speaker 1: kind of put all my social eggs in one basket,
Speaker 1: which was to get on the improv group there, because um,
Speaker 1: you know, it was very it seemed very seamlessly integrated
Speaker 1: into the comedy the leaders that are here in New
Speaker 1: York at the time that we're here in New York
Speaker 1: at the time. And I thought, m my, U is
Speaker 1: gonna be great because I'm gonna have all these friends
Speaker 1: who like comedy as much as I do, who have like,
Speaker 1: you know, watched this many episodes of The Simpsons or Seinfelder,
Speaker 1: you know, like just like Matt TV SNL all of that.
Speaker 1: And then I did find those people. And then throughout college,
Speaker 1: I was on this improv group with all of these
Speaker 1: Tische kids, these these these arts kids who were in
Speaker 1: you know, studying film and TV. Yeah, yes, And I
Speaker 1: was sort of the odd person for for not being
Speaker 1: you know, a Tische kid. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm a chemistry major. But all of them were talking
Speaker 1: about going on to um, you know, do these things
Speaker 1: in the industry. And I was like, I guess I'll
Speaker 1: I guess I'll go to med school. Like my senior year,
Speaker 1: I was like, is this right? And then and then
Speaker 1: commencement at m my U was a Yankee stadium. And
Speaker 1: then I look around and all of my friends are
Speaker 1: like so excited for the next thing, and UM, not
Speaker 1: that this is uncommon, but I was, and I was
Speaker 1: just like, no, what is what is? What is my
Speaker 1: life going to be? Like? I don't think I'm doing
Speaker 1: the right thing. And then I I went in for
Speaker 1: my m CAT the second time, UM at UM one
Speaker 1: Pen Plaza right next to Penn Station here in New
Speaker 1: York City, and that was where the testing center was.
Speaker 1: And I got to the to the long to the
Speaker 1: short answer section and then as soon as as soon
Speaker 1: as the cursor blinked, I thought back on this interview
Speaker 1: that I read Steve Correll do Or. He talked about
Speaker 1: going applying to law school UM when he was struggling
Speaker 1: and he got to the he got to the personal
Speaker 1: essay section of the law school application and he thought,
Speaker 1: I can't do this. I can't do this. And I
Speaker 1: and that interview just like flashed in my head. When
Speaker 1: I was taking the MCOUNT, I was like, I can't
Speaker 1: do this, I cannot do this, and so I avoided
Speaker 1: my test, left the testing center, went downstairs, and just
Speaker 1: like I think I cried. I think I really did
Speaker 1: cry because I was this is this is something that
Speaker 1: I I can't follow through on this because I don't
Speaker 1: think I'll be happy. And so then UM spent like
Speaker 1: the next like seven years pounding the pavement. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, have you ever missed Steve Carell and told
Speaker 1: him that story. I've not told him that story. But
Speaker 1: I met him when I was still a writer at
Speaker 1: SNL and he hosted I think my fourth I know,
Speaker 1: but I mean I kept like my professional distance at
Speaker 1: the time. I mean, if if I were to meet
Speaker 1: him again, and if if it felt right, I would,
Speaker 1: I absolutely but tell him that story and say that
Speaker 1: it really did kind of give me this model for
Speaker 1: like if someone else has done this like I've I'm
Speaker 1: not alone in this experience of doubting what I should
Speaker 1: be doing next, um and and sort of and going
Speaker 1: for this more secure path or something like, there's this
Speaker 1: is someone who I admire, who I love, who who
Speaker 1: did this? But yeah, next time I see him, I'll
Speaker 1: tell him you should. You should? So you do this
Speaker 1: podcast with a friend from n y U R. Matt Rodgers. Yes, look, man,
Speaker 1: oh I see you? Why why And look over there.
Speaker 1: How is that culture? Yes? Goodness? Tell me about the
Speaker 1: podcast and kind of how that honed your skills for comedy? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, um, I should say that I was doing
Speaker 1: mostly improv in college and after after college. It was
Speaker 1: a sketch comedy. I dabbled in stand up a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm I consider myself a dilettant only when
Speaker 1: it comes to stand up. But the podcast that we
Speaker 1: started with them with Matt was just this very like one.
Speaker 1: It just seemed like this very low sticks thing where
Speaker 1: we would meet once a week and it was just
Speaker 1: an excuse for us to hang out and just sort
Speaker 1: of chop it up and talk about what was happening
Speaker 1: in pop culture. And then it sort of turned into
Speaker 1: this thing where, like there was, it had its own
Speaker 1: sort of vocabulary and vernacular. People know what and I
Speaker 1: don't think so, honey? Is so basically and I don't
Speaker 1: think so, honey, is we take sixty seconds to rail
Speaker 1: against something in culture that we do not like, we
Speaker 1: think should be addressed fiercely and loudly. I don't think so, honey. Magicians,
Speaker 1: don't you ever pull ship from behind my ear without
Speaker 1: asking me for permission? And I'm not. You know, slowly,
Speaker 1: our our listenership started to build and now it's just
Speaker 1: this really, it's this really I think healthy UM outlet
Speaker 1: for me to just be myself, because I think it's
Speaker 1: I mean, so often everyone in the industry sort of
Speaker 1: spins out about where they're positioned, what they're doing, if
Speaker 1: they're doing enough, and I mean for me to sort
Speaker 1: of just share this like one moment a week with Matt,
Speaker 1: who is on his own just like kind of doing
Speaker 1: his own amazing things, and he's just such a brilliant
Speaker 1: writer and such a talented actor that I that I think,
Speaker 1: oh gosh, I'm so lucky that I have this UM,
Speaker 1: this other sort of way to sort of like develop
Speaker 1: a sense ability and a voice and just know like
Speaker 1: what I am like about just in terms of like
Speaker 1: how I expressed myself, because he's someone who has like
Speaker 1: puppy dog energy and I'm someone who was like who's
Speaker 1: a little bit more coolly reserved and catlike, and and
Speaker 1: I never I never would have like knowing that about
Speaker 1: myself had I not had this relational e gauge to
Speaker 1: UM to just sort of discover that. Yeah, and meanwhile,
Speaker 1: you're you become a writer on SNL and what two thousand? Um,
Speaker 1: so what was that? What was that experience? Tell me
Speaker 1: about getting the call and you're hired? I mean, how
Speaker 1: did you get that job? I guess. I mean the
Speaker 1: SI has done this a lot in the past, where
Speaker 1: they will hire writers out of the auditions, and I
Speaker 1: had submitted tape in seen and thought, they're never going
Speaker 1: to hire me. They're they're never going to hire this
Speaker 1: a feminine Asian guy. Um Like. I was like, there's
Speaker 1: no like, there's no lane for that there and it's
Speaker 1: not it's not like a role that they need to
Speaker 1: fill at all. So I was like, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: have fun with this. So I did, like I threw
Speaker 1: a bunch of things at the wall, and I was
Speaker 1: just like, as long as I think it's funny, I did.
Speaker 1: Like my impressions were, you know, Mochico Cacutani and like
Speaker 1: it's just the book reviewed at the New York Times
Speaker 1: and like who has never been photographed and more than like,
Speaker 1: I was just like, I don't And it was just
Speaker 1: her like reviewing books and saying threatening that she was
Speaker 1: going to punch Juno Diaz in the face or something
Speaker 1: like just crazy stuff. I was like, this is never
Speaker 1: going to get me in. And then somehow I cleared
Speaker 1: the hurdles to do the showcase live in front of
Speaker 1: an audience that uc B, and then did the screen
Speaker 1: test in front of Lauren, and then got to this
Speaker 1: final meeting with Lauren and then I remember it being
Speaker 1: so late and that I was the last person he saw,
Speaker 1: I think, and he was just like, where are you from?
Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm actually I grew up in Canada.
Speaker 1: I speak a little French and he was and then
Speaker 1: I remember he turned to the producer that was in
Speaker 1: the room and was just like fully just kind of
Speaker 1: sidelined to me, and it was just like, you know,
Speaker 1: the French have great books, don't they. And I was
Speaker 1: just like, okay, I did not get this job. So
Speaker 1: I left thinking I didn't get it. But then they
Speaker 1: called me back into audition again that March of eighteen,
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, I have another shot at this.
Speaker 1: Let's go. Did that they said we're not doing a
Speaker 1: mid season higher come back in August. I came back
Speaker 1: in August auditioned another time with a new set, and
Speaker 1: then I was like, either they take me or they don't.
Speaker 1: And then and then at that time they were like,
Speaker 1: we're not sure what to do with Bowen, but he um,
Speaker 1: but here's here's this offer to hire him as a writer.
Speaker 1: So I wrote for one season and I think had
Speaker 1: I not had that season two write, I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: I would have I mean, Laurene even said this to
Speaker 1: me on the call. When he called me a year
Speaker 1: later in September to tell me that he was moving
Speaker 1: me to the cast. He was like, he said that
Speaker 1: it was his plan because if he was like he was,
Speaker 1: he was like, I knew you were going to be
Speaker 1: He was like, I know you're going to be scrutinized
Speaker 1: and people are going to keep an eye on you
Speaker 1: in a way that's they're going to evaluate you differently
Speaker 1: because of who you are. And so I would have
Speaker 1: done you with di service. If I had thrown you
Speaker 1: out there like without a paddle, like if you didn't
Speaker 1: know how this place worked on a creative level as
Speaker 1: a writer, then then um, then you would have had
Speaker 1: a harder time. And I think that and I think
Speaker 1: he's right, Like, I that was really nice of him, Bowen,
Speaker 1: I mean like he was he had your back. He did.
Speaker 1: I think he did. I really think he did, and
Speaker 1: and I think he was right because by my second
Speaker 1: by by my second week on the show as a
Speaker 1: cast member, you know, I got something on that I
Speaker 1: that I had written with some of the writers. But
Speaker 1: I knew as soon as the shows, as soon as
Speaker 1: the piece got picked to go to the show, I
Speaker 1: knew who to talk to for the costume, I knew
Speaker 1: who to talk to you for the props, and I
Speaker 1: just knew on a production level what to do, what
Speaker 1: my resources were. And I wouldn't I would have had
Speaker 1: no idea. Um if I had just been plucked out
Speaker 1: of you know, the morass and thrown in and every person,
Speaker 1: every cast member would benefit from writing on that for
Speaker 1: a year, I think so. I think so. And yeah,
Speaker 1: And there are plenty of examples of people who did that,
Speaker 1: you know, Sadakis, Leslie Jones, Um, Tina right, Tina, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just I just a lot of people who have
Speaker 1: successfully modeled um, you know, a tenure there have gone,
Speaker 1: have done that, done that thing. I would be remiss
Speaker 1: not to talk to you about what's going on with
Speaker 1: so many Asian Americans and hate crimes and how horrifying
Speaker 1: this has been and how late as a culture we
Speaker 1: were to recognize this. I think in many many ways,
Speaker 1: Asian hate and and these antequated attitudes towards Asian Americans.
Speaker 1: It's it's been a revelation and it shouldn't have been.
Speaker 1: But but before I get to sort of the larger issue,
Speaker 1: as someone who was the first Chinese American cast member,
Speaker 1: as someone who was openly gay on the cast, what
Speaker 1: did you know? How did that form your humor or
Speaker 1: your feelings about being a part of the show. Yeah, Um,
Speaker 1: I feel like I mean, I kind of I tell
Speaker 1: people that I came in at the right place at
Speaker 1: the right time. Um. And I believe that the Terry
Speaker 1: Sweeney in the eighties was the first I think he was.
Speaker 1: I think he was the first gay cast member on
Speaker 1: SNL first season and he I think was like one
Speaker 1: of the only gay one of the first gay people
Speaker 1: on primetime television, or not prime time it's s it's SNL,
Speaker 1: so it's technically not but but but he um was
Speaker 1: what was one of the like the few, if not
Speaker 1: only gave gave people on TV. And then um there's
Speaker 1: John mill Heiser and I want to say who was
Speaker 1: on the show as well. Um, But in my case,
Speaker 1: I came in and at that point there had been
Speaker 1: this legacy of queer writers and UM and performers too,
Speaker 1: with with with Terry and with John and with them
Speaker 1: uh Tnitravance, and with Kate already being so established there.
Speaker 1: I mean, I came in at a time when it
Speaker 1: was very it was not an uphill battle for me
Speaker 1: to be like, I need to prove something about, uh,
Speaker 1: what you can do with this shows as a queer person.
Speaker 1: And so I came in already having a relationship with
Speaker 1: some of the gay writers at the show, like James
Speaker 1: Anderson and Julio torres Um, and I just thought, wow,
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel some pressure. Obviously I would be
Speaker 1: sort of dishonest if I was saying that I didn't.
Speaker 1: But I thought, I have things I've I've sort of
Speaker 1: the wind at my back in terms of like doing
Speaker 1: this in a way that I think will satisfy me
Speaker 1: creatively and hopefully make other people understand where I'm coming from.
Speaker 1: Um with the whole thing of writing there for a season,
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, at least, I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: it goes back to what Lauren was saying, like he
Speaker 1: would have done me a disservice by like throwing out
Speaker 1: there just with me not knowing how anything worked. And
Speaker 1: so you know, I I still am going through some
Speaker 1: weekly things where I think about how I should present
Speaker 1: myself as an Asian person on this TV show. But
Speaker 1: in terms of being put out there as an Asian
Speaker 1: person on the show and having the Asian person's viewpoint,
Speaker 1: I struggled with that a lot. When we um uh
Speaker 1: about a month ago after the Atlanta shootings, UM, we
Speaker 1: would come back from a hiatus, and it was on
Speaker 1: people's minds um both outside of the show and at
Speaker 1: the show internally, where people were like, I mean, it
Speaker 1: has to be addressed in some way, right, so what
Speaker 1: do we do? And then UM, I just heard through
Speaker 1: different people at the show that like the hope was
Speaker 1: that I would write something for a weekend update as
Speaker 1: myself to talk about what was happening. And I was
Speaker 1: for just just for a little bit, just thinking I
Speaker 1: don't think I want to do that, and it feels
Speaker 1: like something I'm sort of being saddled with and I
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm in the place creatively to like
Speaker 1: make light of it. And struggled with all these things.
Speaker 1: But then there was another. There's another right at the show.
Speaker 1: We just hired this season Celestium, and they said to me,
Speaker 1: you know, if it's not going to be us, then who, like,
Speaker 1: you know, if if we don't, if it's not you
Speaker 1: and me writing this together, then like who's going to
Speaker 1: talk about this on the show? And don't we feel
Speaker 1: like wouldn't it be even weird if the show didn't
Speaker 1: bring it up at all? And I said, yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess you're right, and so we wrote this piece. Across
Speaker 1: the country, rallies are being held to condemn the rise
Speaker 1: of anti Asian hate crimes. Here to share resources on
Speaker 1: how you can help is Asian cast member bow and
Speaker 1: Yan all right? Is that? Um? Is that my official title?
Speaker 1: Asian cast member? That's how you told me to introduce you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I set your ass up. You know that blood with
Speaker 1: some jo be the top. It then kind of takes
Speaker 1: this left turn into this place of kind of despair
Speaker 1: and hopelessness that I think is honest, is authentically like
Speaker 1: what a lot of Asian people are feeling in this country,
Speaker 1: where they're like there's no dialogue to have with someone
Speaker 1: if if their instinct is to like punch a grandmother
Speaker 1: on the street, you know, so it takes a turn
Speaker 1: into there and then we we sprinkling some jokes. But
Speaker 1: then at the end um it gets stright into and
Speaker 1: that's sort of like a nice structure that Lauren I
Speaker 1: think likes, and that that's been on the show in
Speaker 1: the past. When it comes to like, you know, a
Speaker 1: grim story like this in Mandarin, there's a cheer that
Speaker 1: goes yo, which basically means fuel up. I don't know
Speaker 1: what's helpful to say to everyone, but that's what I
Speaker 1: say to myself. Then afterwards, I did feel like there
Speaker 1: was this like vulnerability hangover. It was the first time
Speaker 1: I was on the show, like as myself talking um,
Speaker 1: and I felt very vulnerable. But I felt like it
Speaker 1: was something that I was imperfect, but like it was
Speaker 1: something that I think, I'm I'm proud of just having
Speaker 1: it be realized. From like the beginning of the week
Speaker 1: when I was like, I don't know how I'm going
Speaker 1: to do this. I don't know how to address this
Speaker 1: in a way that feels like it fits into the show,
Speaker 1: and then by the end of it feeling like okay,
Speaker 1: you know what, like we did something, and we did
Speaker 1: something that hopefully resonates or activates or motivates people in
Speaker 1: some way, because the whole the whole piece was about
Speaker 1: how we sort of have to, as you know, culture,
Speaker 1: move past like the cursory acknowledgement of the problem and actually,
Speaker 1: you know, actively and do something about it, um in
Speaker 1: whatever we we can. And I think I think people
Speaker 1: understood that. As an Asian American man, I'm curious as
Speaker 1: as you saw this unfold and I had a I
Speaker 1: had suspicions that this was going to happen when some
Speaker 1: of my friends who are in the medical community said that,
Speaker 1: you know, there were slurs hurled at them at the
Speaker 1: beginning of the pandemic. You know, I remember interviewing an
Speaker 1: Asian American doctor and you know, um, it obviously just
Speaker 1: got worse and worse and worse, and and witnessing this,
Speaker 1: were you at all surprised? Where you appalled? How would
Speaker 1: you describe your reaction to to the kinds of incidents
Speaker 1: that we were seeing happened with greater frequency or at
Speaker 1: least getting more and more attention. M H. I feel
Speaker 1: like I was sort of awakened in a way that
Speaker 1: a lot of not just Asian people were um and
Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know that
Speaker 1: it's that we're all late to this realization. I mean
Speaker 1: I think I think it's I think it's coming in
Speaker 1: on time, because I mean all of us have been
Speaker 1: socialized under this idea that like, I mean, gosh, I
Speaker 1: mean my friend Joel Kim Booster, who's another Asian comedian, said, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I get mixed up with another Asian person
Speaker 1: only once a month. You pre COVID would be like
Speaker 1: even more. But like, just the way that Asian people
Speaker 1: are sort of like faceless in Western culture is like
Speaker 1: it just kind of it's it's it's a symptom of
Speaker 1: the same disease where it's like, you know, we're all
Speaker 1: sort of dehumanized in a very quick immediate way. And
Speaker 1: so like all my life, I've grown up like having
Speaker 1: slurs sort of casually tossed off at me about someone else, um,
Speaker 1: when I was with an air shot, like all these
Speaker 1: crazy things, and I and and and and what's kind
Speaker 1: of terrible is that I was used to it, and
Speaker 1: that none of this was surprising to me until very recently,
Speaker 1: when it felt like there was a collective rejection of
Speaker 1: that from a lot of people, um, in the Asian
Speaker 1: American community where we all thought, wait a second here,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's something you would become inured to
Speaker 1: in a way. Yes, absolutely, and and isn't that like
Speaker 1: and like it kind of fills me with a little
Speaker 1: bit of shame to admit that, but I think that's
Speaker 1: true of a lot of Asians in this country, and
Speaker 1: and for and for the people who like had that,
Speaker 1: who have realized it thoroughly on who are who are
Speaker 1: ahead of the curve. I think wow, I mean like
Speaker 1: truly like good for you. And I don't mean that sarcastically.
Speaker 1: I mean like I wish I had been as developed
Speaker 1: as that earlier on, because now I'm finally at a
Speaker 1: place where I'm like, I can say no to this
Speaker 1: joke that's being written for me, Um, I can say
Speaker 1: no to a joke that's written for someone else, but
Speaker 1: that still sort of takes his swipe. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I've had to do that in multiple environments, um, just
Speaker 1: with it among friends, professionally, you know whatever. Like now
Speaker 1: it just feels like if I put a foot down
Speaker 1: when it comes to that kind of thing, then that
Speaker 1: it's more easily understood. Does that make sense totally make sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Do you think it will change or you feeling that
Speaker 1: this heightened sensitivity and understanding and awareness of this kind
Speaker 1: of prejudice and discrimination will will help alleviate it. I
Speaker 1: hope so, and I hope I mostly just hope that, um,
Speaker 1: the discourse sort of turns away from like the actual
Speaker 1: hate incidents. UM. And I think I think there's some
Speaker 1: collective shifts right now, at least, like among among people
Speaker 1: I talked to, we were like, Okay, so we understand
Speaker 1: where the hashtag comes from of stop Asian hate, but um,
Speaker 1: but it should be more about protecting the well being
Speaker 1: of Asian people, UM in the country. It's you know,
Speaker 1: because if we're centering the aggression that's being directed towards us,
Speaker 1: then I don't know if there's ever going to be
Speaker 1: a counter gesture that's going to be strong enough to
Speaker 1: like push back against that in a way that eliminates.
Speaker 1: It shouldn't be about eliminating. I mean, ideally it should
Speaker 1: be about a eminating that kind of uh volatility towards
Speaker 1: the Asian community. But I think the way to actively
Speaker 1: prioritize everyone's well being and for everyone to be in
Speaker 1: a better position is just to make sure that we're
Speaker 1: all taken care of, just on like on a material level,
Speaker 1: emotional level, you know, all of that. So that's like,
Speaker 1: that's like the thing that I hope for and that
Speaker 1: I first seen maybe happening, is that we all kind
Speaker 1: of we we we we take it out of the
Speaker 1: terms of like a hate crime. It's more about it's
Speaker 1: not about like the prosecutorial way of like making sure
Speaker 1: people are brought to justice for whatever they do, but
Speaker 1: it's just about making sure that like people down, up
Speaker 1: and down every class in the Asian community are just
Speaker 1: sort of solid. I know we have to wrap it up.
Speaker 1: I could talk to you all day, but just a
Speaker 1: couple of things I wanted wanted to ask you about.
Speaker 1: Where did you come up with the crazy icebergskin? Next
Speaker 1: week marks the end of a story of the sinking
Speaker 1: of the Titanic. Here to explain his side of the story,
Speaker 1: is the Iceberg sank the Titanic. Hi, Colin Hi, it's
Speaker 1: for having me. This is always a really weird time
Speaker 1: this year for me. Thank you for being here and
Speaker 1: just tell us what was going through your head that
Speaker 1: faithful night. Thank you for that question. Um, you know
Speaker 1: what Colin, that was a really long time ago. Um,
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of reflecting to try and move
Speaker 1: past it. It's one very small part of me, but
Speaker 1: there's so much going on beneath the surface that you
Speaker 1: can't see, right, Yeah, like an iceberg? Is that your
Speaker 1: favorite that you've done so far? It was probably the
Speaker 1: most fun on a performance level, just being in the
Speaker 1: room and just having it. Um play, but it was
Speaker 1: and Dresden's idea. She's one of the head writers at
Speaker 1: s n L now and she texted me back in
Speaker 1: February she said, for the April tenth show, maybe you
Speaker 1: play the iceberg that sank the Titanic. And I was
Speaker 1: just like, what, what are you talking about? And she
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, never mind, it's and we'll
Speaker 1: we'll we'll get to it in April. Like she had
Speaker 1: this idea months in advance because she was like, it
Speaker 1: should be somewhat timely because of the anniversary of the sinking,
Speaker 1: which is in the middle, which is in the middle
Speaker 1: of April. And I go, okay, maybe, and so we
Speaker 1: let we let it rest for a couple of months,
Speaker 1: and then the week of that show, I texted her
Speaker 1: on Monday, I was like, what do you think of
Speaker 1: that iceberg idea? Again? She was like I completely forgot
Speaker 1: about it. But then we started riffing on it. We're like, okay,
Speaker 1: he's there to promote his album. He's there, he doesn't
Speaker 1: want to talk about it. He's really grown. Since then, um,
Speaker 1: all these things, and I mean the entire time, you
Speaker 1: have to understand Katie. The entire week, both of us
Speaker 1: looked at each other multiple multiple times, and we're just
Speaker 1: like this is never going to be on TV, Like
Speaker 1: how will we ever make this work? And we would
Speaker 1: just cackle, like laugh hysterically to each other like what
Speaker 1: are we doing? This is nuts down to like Saturday
Speaker 1: at like six thirty pm, us just looking at each
Speaker 1: other being like what are we doing? This is going
Speaker 1: to get cut immediately, Like it's just such a big swing,
Speaker 1: and like why would Lauren ever think that this would
Speaker 1: be that those should make any sense? Then we did
Speaker 1: it address rehearsal and it and it did better than
Speaker 1: we thought. We were like okay, and then an it
Speaker 1: comes to me afterwards and she's like, Lauren liked it.
Speaker 1: I was like, all right, I guess maybe we do it.
Speaker 1: And then finally the picks come out for the for
Speaker 1: the air show, it's in. I go, wow, I guess
Speaker 1: we're doing this. And then somehow the air audience was
Speaker 1: even more on board than than the dress audience was.
Speaker 1: And I was like, this was just I mean, every
Speaker 1: star aligned for this and I just can't I still,
Speaker 1: I still can't believe it happened. Why are you said
Speaker 1: you would be my Oprah? Call it that someone did
Speaker 1: and that and you also had that Harry Styles, Uh
Speaker 1: that was never going to see the light of day.
Speaker 1: And till Harry Styles, like, I don't know you completed
Speaker 1: him or something bowen, he exhumed it from from the grave.
Speaker 1: And I mean that was another moment where I turned
Speaker 1: to him and Cecily Strong, who was with me in
Speaker 1: that sketch. I co wrote it with Julio Torres. This
Speaker 1: this this wonderful comedian friend of mine who was a
Speaker 1: writer there for for several years. But I turned to
Speaker 1: both of the Cecily and Harry, and I was just like,
Speaker 1: this can't be on TV. It's I mean, but that's
Speaker 1: when it's the most fun. Is that, like things that
Speaker 1: you never think could could come to pass on the
Speaker 1: show end up happening. And then they have this weird
Speaker 1: life of their own afterwards. That that's the most delightful
Speaker 1: part of the whole job. It must make you question
Speaker 1: your judgment though, Like if you think, oh, this is
Speaker 1: gonna kill and it bombs and this is the strangest
Speaker 1: thing ever and it becomes a viral sensation. I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: the inverse happens all the time, things that you're like
Speaker 1: so sure about that just no one else is on board,
Speaker 1: no one else is even remotely into it, and then
Speaker 1: it's and then it's the other way around so many
Speaker 1: other times too, And that's that's sort of the best
Speaker 1: part of the job, is just not ever getting it
Speaker 1: down to an actual science, because I because even writers
Speaker 1: at SNL don't know what they're doing obviously all the time.
Speaker 1: You have done so many things. I mean, is there
Speaker 1: something that are you just going to continue to enjoy
Speaker 1: growing as a performer on SNL. I know you've done
Speaker 1: you do stand up still even though I know you
Speaker 1: consider yourself a dilettante, but you still kind of play
Speaker 1: in that space a little bit. You did the aquafine
Speaker 1: of stuff. Um, you know, if you sort of had
Speaker 1: to chart out the next five or ten years. Is
Speaker 1: there are there things you want to do or they're
Speaker 1: kind of moments that you want to seizes or opportunities
Speaker 1: that you see yourself doing. Would you like to do
Speaker 1: more films, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah, I feel very entertainment tonight
Speaker 1: right now. But I'm just hearing I feel like to
Speaker 1: get this side of Katie kerk Is is actually I
Speaker 1: can't believe I'm on receiving ends of this, but I, um,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I would love to. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: this there's this phrase that I repeat all the time
Speaker 1: from Tony Hale Um from VIEP and wrestling. It's fantastic. Um.
Speaker 1: I think someone asked him. I forget where, but someone
Speaker 1: asked him what his best sort of career advice was,
Speaker 1: and he said, um, especially when it came to comedians
Speaker 1: or comedic actors. He said, instead of investing in a career,
Speaker 1: instead of thinking about in terms of investing in a career,
Speaker 1: think in terms of investing in a community, because it's
Speaker 1: the people you come up with that sort of make
Speaker 1: it such a good experience. And I feel I think
Speaker 1: I'm very lucky to I feel like I'm a part
Speaker 1: of a community among people who you know, I would
Speaker 1: do like Brooklyn bar Basement shows with you know, five
Speaker 1: years ago, and now they're there in movies and they're
Speaker 1: writing for shows and they're doing all these incredible things,
Speaker 1: and so I just want some I mean, I honestly
Speaker 1: want to think of some way to like build out
Speaker 1: this like way of developing some community around comedians and
Speaker 1: especially queer ones, especially Asian ones, whether together separately, UM
Speaker 1: that just like is able to come up to come
Speaker 1: up together. Because I was talking to be Dwong about
Speaker 1: this and he was telling me, like, you know you
Speaker 1: he's talking to me. He was like, you are probably
Speaker 1: the subject of a lot of these discussions where it's
Speaker 1: like why did it takes along for an Asian person
Speaker 1: to be on SNL or a fully East Asian person
Speaker 1: to be on SNL. And his theory is that, like
Speaker 1: there is just no inevitable process for developing people who
Speaker 1: come out of certain programs, or there's no educational process,
Speaker 1: there's no um process that like takes you from one
Speaker 1: end to the other that is as obvious as it
Speaker 1: is um for for certain other people. And so I'm like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: like maybe there's a way to like build that um
Speaker 1: and so I mean, I obviously want to do the fun,
Speaker 1: the fun stuff like being things, but I think that's
Speaker 1: like the that's like this sort of community, community investment
Speaker 1: that I think I want to like try and help with.
Speaker 1: It's just to make sure it happens more often. Well, Bowen,
Speaker 1: thank you again, and again I'm congratulations for all your success.
Speaker 1: I'm super happy for you and and not only enjoy
Speaker 1: watching you, but really really enjoyed talking to you. So
Speaker 1: thank you for all your time. Thank you, this is
Speaker 1: a wonderful conversation. Thanks for facilitating it. Love me some Boigner.
Speaker 1: His podcast Last Culture Aristas is in the I Heart Family,
Speaker 1: so go check it out and I might even be
Speaker 1: a guest this fall. I'm very excited. And if you
Speaker 1: missed any of those SNL clips we referenced, will link
Speaker 1: to them in the description of this podcast. Next Question
Speaker 1: with Katie Kirk is a production of My Heart Media
Speaker 1: and Katie Kurk Media. Up The executive producers Army, Katie Curic,
Speaker 1: and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate
Speaker 1: producers Derek Clements, Adrianna Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show
Speaker 1: is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information
Speaker 1: about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter,
Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to Katie currek dot com. You
Speaker 1: can also find me at Katie curic, on Instagram and
Speaker 1: on my social media channels. For more podcasts from I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,