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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time for an episode from the Vault. This originally aired July.

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Speaker 1: It's called Whispers of the Speaking Sword. This was about

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Speaker 1: swords that talk. Robbed this episode is your idea? I

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Speaker 1: remember it came to you like a bolt of lightning. Yes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of fun stuff in here that various

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Speaker 1: myths and legends about swords that speak, as well as

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Speaker 1: some pop culture tie ends as well. Calivoian, wicked Wizard,

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Speaker 1: grasps the handle of his broadsword, asks the blade this

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Speaker 1: simple question, tell me, oh, my blade of honor, dost

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Speaker 1: thou wish to drink my life blood? Drink the blood

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Speaker 1: of Calivoi. In Thus, his trusty sword makes answer well,

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Speaker 1: divining his intentions, Why should I not drink thy life

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Speaker 1: blood blood of guilty? Colivoian, since I feast upon the worthy,

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Speaker 1: drink the life blood of the righteous. Thereupon, the youth Colervo,

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Speaker 1: wicked Wizard of the north Land, lifts the mighty sword

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Speaker 1: of Uco did Zadou to earth in heaven, firmly thrust

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Speaker 1: the hilt in heather to his heart. He points the weapon,

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Speaker 1: throws his weight upon the broadsword, pouring out his wicked

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Speaker 1: life blood. Air be journeys to Manala. Thus the wizard

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Speaker 1: finds destruction. This the end of Calivoi, Born in sin

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Speaker 1: and nursed in folly. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your

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Speaker 1: mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: to blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. And what you just heard was an

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Speaker 1: excerpt from Room thirty five of the Finnish epic The

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Speaker 1: Kola Valla, as translated by John Martin Crawford in eight Uh.

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Speaker 1: It's a famous scene from the text um that has

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Speaker 1: been depicted in art. You'll find depictions of it in

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Speaker 1: public statues. Uh, there was one that I was able

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Speaker 1: to pull up here for us, Joe, for our notes.

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Speaker 1: When you see this very stoic, very grim looking figure

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Speaker 1: standing there gripping the blade of his sword, not the

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Speaker 1: not the hilt, but the actual blade of it, as

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Speaker 1: he contemplates deep dark thoughts. Now, as for the things

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Speaker 1: that are draped over his midsection, is this just sort

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Speaker 1: of straps or from the pelt that have tassels like

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Speaker 1: a scarf might have or are those the paws of

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Speaker 1: what was a bear skin with the claws still on them?

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Speaker 1: They to me they look like the clause of an

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Speaker 1: animal skin. Yeah, but the way they wrapped around him,

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Speaker 1: it looks like he's being from behind by a very

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Speaker 1: flattened bear. That's kind of like reaching down onto his

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Speaker 1: thighs in a funny looking way. Now, the Calivaya, for

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Speaker 1: anyone who's not familiar with this, is the national epic

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Speaker 1: of Finland and nineteenth century work based on on on

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Speaker 1: on Caroline and Finnish folklore and mythology concerning the creation

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Speaker 1: of the world, the exploits of heroes and villains, as

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Speaker 1: well as the magical sampo. So this has been this

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Speaker 1: has been uh given the cinematic treatment a few different

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Speaker 1: times over the years, and I know we've we've heard

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Speaker 1: from listeners about some of those depictions and about just

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Speaker 1: the the epic itself. I myself, if have have yet

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Speaker 1: to read it in full, but I have to say,

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Speaker 1: after this um, this little cold open reading here, I

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Speaker 1: really like the cadence of it. I like the cadence

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Speaker 1: of this translation. So perhaps I'll dive back in at

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Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, it's on my mental list as well.

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Speaker 1: But so, what's going on in the scene that you read? Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this scening question concerns the character Klarvo, who of

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Speaker 1: course is also referred to to as colorv Oid in

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Speaker 1: in this uh this this particular translation. And he's a

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Speaker 1: tragic and doomed character. Uh. He has this he needs

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Speaker 1: having this conversation with the unnamed but clearly sentient blade

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Speaker 1: that he wields. Uh. There's an element of edifice to

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Speaker 1: the character though, and he's also something of a of

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Speaker 1: a wizard obviously, is described as an evil wizard. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot going on here. But the interesting

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Speaker 1: thing for our purposes is that the sword speaks. The

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Speaker 1: sword seems to keep a history of itself. It knows

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Speaker 1: what it has done, It knows who it has killed,

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Speaker 1: and the character of those that it is killed. Um.

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Speaker 1: And there's a sense of the blade has some sort

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Speaker 1: of will of its own, even if in this case

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Speaker 1: it's more of a bloodthirsty indifference to whoever's blood it

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Speaker 1: happens to spill. Is it like a kind of propaganda

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Speaker 1: that justifies its own use? Yeah, I mean it, it

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Speaker 1: kind of makes sense, right, I mean, the sword. What

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Speaker 1: does the sword want? Well, in this case, the sword

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Speaker 1: just wants to spill blood. It doesn't care if it's

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Speaker 1: righteous blood. It doesn't care if it's evil blood. It

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Speaker 1: just wants blood. Now, if this particular scene sounds familiar,

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Speaker 1: you know, it is clearly echoed in the famous is

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Speaker 1: this a Dagger? Which I see before me monologue from

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Speaker 1: William Shakespeare's Macbeth. And I've also read that Hamlet too

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Speaker 1: was at least in part inspired by this, this uh,

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Speaker 1: this finished tale, that these finished legends. Um. Of course,

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Speaker 1: in Macbeth, the dagger does not answer the doomed king. Um,

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Speaker 1: he's just speaking to it. He's just, you know, he's

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Speaker 1: kind of making it the focus of his monologue. But

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Speaker 1: there is an interesting history of speaking swords and myth

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Speaker 1: and legend, and of course this also spills over into

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Speaker 1: the existence of various speaking weapons in fiction. Um. One

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Speaker 1: of the most notable, at least for me, would would

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Speaker 1: be the sentient weapons of dungeons and dragons, particularly the

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Speaker 1: sword Black Razor, which has been around and the Dungeons

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Speaker 1: and Dragons lore for a while. But we should we

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Speaker 1: should also mention some other, perhaps um less obvious examples

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Speaker 1: of of intelligent weapons, especially from the film Who Framed

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Speaker 1: Roger Rabbit? I think these are actually parodies of old

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Speaker 1: like Loony Tunes conventions. But there is a sword that

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Speaker 1: sings in it right, right, It's kind of a Frank

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Speaker 1: Sinatra cartoon Frank Sinatra sword. And uh, it's been a

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Speaker 1: long time since I've seen Roger Rabbit. I remember the

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Speaker 1: sword being fairly useless, like it seemed more interested in

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Speaker 1: singing and crooning as opposed to being a proper stabbing implement.

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Speaker 1: And again it had a will out its own. What

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Speaker 1: if there was a sword who just wanted to dance?

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Speaker 1: But but the other thing is I remember in this

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Speaker 1: movie there are like sentient bullets like uh, what's his name?

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Speaker 1: Bob Hoskins gets out of a bunch of bullets to

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Speaker 1: put in his gun, and their cartoon like old West

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Speaker 1: cowboy bullets, and that one talks like a prospector. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I had completely forgotten about this till you shared an

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Speaker 1: image with me. I think at least one of the

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Speaker 1: bullets as Pipper from Final Sacrifice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's been like again, it's been a long time, so

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Speaker 1: I've seen it, But looking at this still I can,

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Speaker 1: I can hear that stereotypical like prospect or voice. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So in this episode we're going to discuss some examples

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Speaker 1: of speaking swords from myth and legend and literature and

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Speaker 1: maybe get into what it all means to a certain extent. Now,

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Speaker 1: the idea of a weapon that has a mind of

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Speaker 1: its own and can even talk and talk to its bearer, Uh,

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Speaker 1: it goes goes very far back, even farther back than

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Speaker 1: a la Vala. In fact, it goes to the civilizations

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Speaker 1: of ancient Mesopotamia and their myths. Yeah, because this and

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Speaker 1: this is one that's not just an old example, it's

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Speaker 1: just it's an example that checks off all the boxes

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Speaker 1: of what you want to find in a sentient weapon.

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Speaker 1: It is a sharer the talking mace, which was a

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Speaker 1: weapon that was wielded by the hero god Ninurta. So

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Speaker 1: this would have been of Sumerian and then I think

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Speaker 1: later Babylonian mythology. Yeah, and um, and like a lot

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Speaker 1: of those gods, I think his history jectory kind of

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Speaker 1: changes course over time. He's uh, he was at least

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Speaker 1: initially a god of spring, thunder showers and a protector

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Speaker 1: of agriculture. I've also seen him uh, written about as

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Speaker 1: being more connected with the sun, and then in later

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Speaker 1: traditions more of like a warrior god um, and then

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Speaker 1: he's there are there are. There are also some some

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Speaker 1: pretty famous depictions of him. There's a like if you

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Speaker 1: just go to like a Wikipedia page about ancient Sumerian legend,

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Speaker 1: you're likely to see this image of Nonnurta with it

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Speaker 1: with thunderbolts, pursuing this winged demon an zoo Um who

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Speaker 1: has stolen the tablets of destiny. Uh. It's pretty famous image. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And like so much of that great old Mesopotamian art,

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Speaker 1: you get this kind of side view of the characters

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Speaker 1: right there there in profile as they're striding forward. And

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Speaker 1: Unnurta has absolutely fabulous calf muscles. Yes, and in this

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Speaker 1: image he has the he has thunderbolts. But um, this

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Speaker 1: other weapon is associated with him in some of the

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Speaker 1: old old writings. And this is this is again sharrow

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Speaker 1: or the Smasher of thousands, and it is a mace. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I'm gonna have a short artifact episode coming up

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Speaker 1: I think next week that gets into this a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But uh, just getting into the idea of like why

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Speaker 1: a mace what is it Is it about a mace? Uh?

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Speaker 1: That it would have been important in ancient warfare, and

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Speaker 1: and basically it comes down to the fact that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you were fighting people that did not have metal helmets,

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Speaker 1: a mace was just an absolutely devastating weapon to have.

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Speaker 1: It became a symbol of authority and many different cultures,

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Speaker 1: and therefore it's exactly the sort of thing that a

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Speaker 1: powerful deity would wield against monstrous enemies. I think of

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Speaker 1: the mace as being very prominently displayed in some some

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Speaker 1: quite memorable ancient Egyptian art, for example on the Narmer Palette,

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Speaker 1: which shows, of course, you know, the pharaoh clutching the

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Speaker 1: head of the conquered enemy and raising the mace in

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Speaker 1: the other hand. Uh, it's sort of an image of

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Speaker 1: total dominance. Yeah. Yeah. Apparently the mace was the symbol

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Speaker 1: of of Egyptian power for a very long time because

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Speaker 1: there for for the longest their armies only fought enemies

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Speaker 1: with no armor or helmets, and so the mace was

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Speaker 1: just a dominant weapon to wield. Now, as as far

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Speaker 1: as Shahura goes, this was no typical mace. This was

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Speaker 1: a weapon that could speak, it could fly, across vast

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Speaker 1: distances and even take on the form of a winged lion.

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Speaker 1: As Abraham Amen points out in The Monster Hunter's Handbook,

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Speaker 1: the weapon was capable of smashing enemies either on its

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Speaker 1: own or in the hands of Nnorta. And it also

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Speaker 1: rain fire and venom down on its enemies and allowed

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Speaker 1: the hero god to slay this terrifying demon Azag, the

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Speaker 1: one that we just described from that that illustration. Wow.

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Speaker 1: So but of course us just talking about it, you know,

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Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't really give it justice. You gotta you gotta

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Speaker 1: go to the poetry, or at least translations of the poetry,

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Speaker 1: and in the Sumerian poem Nenorta's Exploits. Uh. Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of just beautiful, violent language about our hero's

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Speaker 1: use of the mace. He said, to pound a SOG's

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Speaker 1: body as if it were barley, like in a mill

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Speaker 1: or Yeah, like a mortar and pestle. Yeah. Yeah, Like

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Speaker 1: he's not going to just knock down the monster and

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Speaker 1: and and act like it's a Friday that thirteenth movie. Oh,

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Speaker 1: is the enemy dead? I don't know. No, He's gonna

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Speaker 1: go over and pound that enemy into the ground with

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Speaker 1: this mace. In fact, such is the power of or

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Speaker 1: that the condition of the slain demon's body is compared

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Speaker 1: to that of a ship wrecked by a tidal wave.

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Speaker 1: That's the demon you make bread out of, yeah, or pasta? Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: Nonorta's Exploits translation of it is available online, and there

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Speaker 1: are little bits of it that are you know that,

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Speaker 1: that are just lost. But it's well worth looking up

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Speaker 1: and reading through because it has all this awesome battle

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Speaker 1: language in it. But I want to read just a

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Speaker 1: few quotes from it that drive home mostly this idea

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Speaker 1: of the weapon as being the sentient speaking thing. Okay, quote,

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Speaker 1: At that moment, the lord's battle mace looked towards the mountains,

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Speaker 1: and Shahur cried out aloud to its master. And then

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Speaker 1: there's another passage here, O beware, it said, concerned lee,

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Speaker 1: the weapon embraced him, whom it loved. The Shahur addressed

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Speaker 1: Lord Nenirta quote the weapon its heart was reassured. It

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Speaker 1: slapped its thighs. The Shahur began to run. It entered

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Speaker 1: the rebel lands joyfully. It reported the message to Lord Nenorta.

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Speaker 1: And then there is this one's great. The Shahur made

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Speaker 1: the storm wind rise to heaven, scattered the people like

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Speaker 1: and then as there's a fragment that's lost, it tore

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Speaker 1: its venom alone destroyed the townspeople. The destructive may set

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Speaker 1: fire to the mountains. The murderous weapons smashed skulls with

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Speaker 1: its painful teeth. The club, which tears out in trails,

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Speaker 1: gnashed its teeth. The lance was stuck into the ground,

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Speaker 1: and the crevices filled with blood. In the rebel lands,

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Speaker 1: dog licked it up like milk. The enemy rose up,

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Speaker 1: crying to wife and child. You did not lift your

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Speaker 1: arms in prayer to Lord Ninurta. The weapon covered the

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Speaker 1: mountains with dust, but did not shake the heart of

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Speaker 1: a zog. The shower threw its arms around the neck

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Speaker 1: of the lord. All right, So this is a mace,

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Speaker 1: a weapon that not only talks, not only cries allowed

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Speaker 1: to its beloved master, but it also hugs its beloved master. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a weapon that's not going to turn on you.

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Speaker 1: This is not a weapon where you're gonna be like

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Speaker 1: when you ask it, hey, or things pretty bad and

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Speaker 1: the weapons like, yeah, it's pretty bad. You should fish

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Speaker 1: you should follow me. Uh No, this is a mace

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Speaker 1: that stands by you now, doesn't this weapon also essentially

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Speaker 1: function as a long range surveillance device, reporting information back

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Speaker 1: to its bearer from a distance. Yeah, it is. Um

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Speaker 1: It is an extremely overpowered weapon. It's befitting of a

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Speaker 1: of a god hero. But yeah, we're we're based on

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Speaker 1: these passages and others. There's this idea that it will

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Speaker 1: fly ahead, it will report back, it will fly into

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Speaker 1: battle on its own. But it can also, you know,

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Speaker 1: very much be wielded as a traditional weapon by um

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Speaker 1: By Nenorta. So it does all of these things. It

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Speaker 1: also has these these powers of venom and fire. It's

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Speaker 1: just absolutely powerful. I think we're in Batman territory here

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Speaker 1: because it's kind of like overpowered in the way Batman's

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Speaker 1: gadgets are that he just has gadgets that like there's

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Speaker 1: no reason he should have. Yeah, and and this one

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Speaker 1: just yeah, this does everything you can imagine. It's almost

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Speaker 1: as if, like later traditions were like, this is great,

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Speaker 1: but let's tone it down a little bit because I

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Speaker 1: don't know if people are going to believe it. But

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Speaker 1: like I said, it's it's it's amazing. It's an amazing weapon.

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Speaker 1: Sharer has shark repellent properties. That's right, Batman did have

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Speaker 1: shark repellent, just carried it around just in case. Thank

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Speaker 1: than Now, when it comes to speaking weapons in other traditions,

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Speaker 1: we have to pay special attention to to Irish myth

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Speaker 1: and legend because it seems it seems a really good

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Speaker 1: place to to spend some time, not only for the

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Speaker 1: tales themselves, but because it's an area where we have

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Speaker 1: some some pretty solid papers written on the history of

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Speaker 1: it all. In particular, I was looking at Gary Are

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Speaker 1: Varner's The Sword and Dagger and Myth and Legend from

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Speaker 1: twelve and Omens Ordeals and Oracles on Demons and Weapons

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Speaker 1: in early Irish texts from by Jacqueline bush Now. Varner

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Speaker 1: points out that Irish swords were said to retain a

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Speaker 1: memory of the acts committed with the weapon, and a

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Speaker 1: warrior would swear by these weapons, but also could be

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Speaker 1: rebuked by the sword if they did not speak true uh.

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Speaker 1: And apparently this could take a couple of different forms.

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Speaker 1: The weapon might simply fail for the hero at an

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Speaker 1: important moment in battle, but it might also speak and

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Speaker 1: curse them for their false trophies. This is interesting. The

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Speaker 1: idea of being um accepted or rebuked by a weapon.

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Speaker 1: It makes me think of Scaliber, which in which I

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Speaker 1: do not think. I was looking around for evidence of

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Speaker 1: stories where Excalibur speaks, and I didn't find any. But

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Speaker 1: Excalibur does certainly look for its rightful owner and uh

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Speaker 1: and and rebukes people who try to wield it without

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Speaker 1: the right to do so. Yeah. And of course JRR

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Speaker 1: Tolkien was was obviously a uh an admire of many

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Speaker 1: of these myth cycles that that we're discussing here. So

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Speaker 1: you see a lot of this reflected, and say, the

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Speaker 1: behavior of the one ring, the idea that it it

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Speaker 1: chooses who wears it and who wields it, and it

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Speaker 1: might leave you if it has decided that it it

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Speaker 1: no longer believes in you. Right, I'm done with the

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Speaker 1: sealed or no more. Yeah. And so you see that

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Speaker 1: in some of these of these accounts, you know it's

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Speaker 1: not uh, you know it will ultimately be like okay,

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Speaker 1: that the hero has failed and the weapon has abandoned

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00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:55,360
Speaker 1: them at a crucial moment. Q that Taylor Swift breakup song. Now,

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Speaker 1: an example cited by Bush can be found in The

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Speaker 1: Sick Bed of Colin. Now, this is a character that

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Speaker 1: we've discussed on the show before this is the Irish

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Speaker 1: hero who I believe we did a whole episode where

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Speaker 1: we talked about one of his special weapons that may

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Speaker 1: or may not be related to, um, the biological properties

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Speaker 1: of the sting ray. Oh, yeah, that's right. I do

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Speaker 1: recall that episode maybe being one of our most difficult

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Speaker 1: pronunciation adventures of all time. Yeah, globe trotting as we

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Speaker 1: do with our clumsy tongues, but but that one was

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Speaker 1: also a lot of fun. Uh that those myths are awesome.

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Speaker 1: I remember the warp spasm, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, Kukulan

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Speaker 1: is as a fascinating character. And and I hope I'm

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Speaker 1: saying it appropriately here because I've heard it said both way,

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Speaker 1: like Kukulan and Kohlan, And we had a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of of Irish listeners right in and um and weigh

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Speaker 1: in on this topic. So here we are once again, folks. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But in an early scene, uh, speaking of clumsy tongues,

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Speaker 1: they're the warriors bring forth the tongues of their enemies,

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Speaker 1: though some have embellish their trophies with the tongues of cows,

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Speaker 1: and so the warriors swear with their swords on their thighs,

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Speaker 1: and here's a quote from it. For their swords used

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Speaker 1: to turn against them when they would declare a false victory.

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Speaker 1: That is right, for demons used to speak to them

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Speaker 1: from their weapons, so that their weapons were thus guarantees

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Speaker 1: for them. I'm not sure I understand the causality of

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Speaker 1: the sentence. Let's see, so the demons used to speak

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Speaker 1: to them for their weapons, so that their weapons were

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Speaker 1: thus guarantees for them, meaning that the demons speaking from

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Speaker 1: the weapons would would let you know whether what the

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Speaker 1: warrior said was true or not. Yes, yeah, And of

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Speaker 1: course then now the whole idea, in the whole use

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Speaker 1: of the word demon, we'll get into that in a bit,

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Speaker 1: because of course that obviously smacks of of of later

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Speaker 1: you know, Christian era writers making sense of of older

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Speaker 1: beliefs and traditions by attributing them to demons as opposed

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Speaker 1: to you know, uh, spirits or deities that would have

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Speaker 1: made sense within the actual traditions and religion of those

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Speaker 1: people's right. Sure, So there are a lot of things

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Speaker 1: from the ancient world where, uh, where there's a story

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Speaker 1: or a text that has a word that means something

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00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,640
Speaker 1: like spirits or gods or something, but Christian writers might

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00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,399
Speaker 1: translate it as demons. Now, a specific example of talking

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Speaker 1: weapons that the springs up is made in the Battle

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Speaker 1: of mag Truetta. This is an Irish epic about the

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Speaker 1: battles thought by the to Atha Dudon and against the

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Speaker 1: first the fear bold, and then against the monsters for

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Speaker 1: Marian's so these are like the the to Dudon, and

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Speaker 1: these are like the fairy folk of old. They're kind

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00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,399
Speaker 1: of like the Yeah, I guess you could compare them

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00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,399
Speaker 1: to like the high elves, like they were, you know,

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Speaker 1: a warrior, magical warrior people. And then these enemies were

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Speaker 1: mostly monsters. Quote. Now, in that battle, Ogma the champion

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Speaker 1: found Oma, the sword of tetherra king of the Fomorians.

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Speaker 1: Ogma unsheathed the sword and cleaned it. Then the sword

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Speaker 1: told what had been done by it, because it was

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Speaker 1: the habit of swords at that time to recount the

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Speaker 1: deeds that had been done by them whenever they were unsheathed,

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Speaker 1: and for that reason, swords were entitled to the tribute

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00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 1: of cleaning after they have been unsheathed. Moreover, spells have

356
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 1: been kept in swords from that time on. Now, the

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00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 1: reason why demons used to speak from weapons, then, is

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00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 1: that weapons used to be worshiped by men and were

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00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 1: among the sureties of that time. Whoa several interesting things

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00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,440
Speaker 1: going on there. So I like the idea that the

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00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,919
Speaker 1: swords being empowered to speak about the deeds that have

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00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 1: been done with them is in a way presented as

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Speaker 1: an incentive for the care and maintenance of your sword. Yeah,

364
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,400
Speaker 1: and for that reason, swords are entitled to the tribute

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00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: of cleaning after they've been unsheathed. But I mean, it

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Speaker 1: also seems just like cleaning a sword is important for

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Speaker 1: maintaining the sword, like keeping it useful. So this seems

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00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 1: perhaps like one of those myths that that may have

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00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,400
Speaker 1: a sort of practical origin. Yeah. And then of course

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Speaker 1: at the end this bit about well well used to

371
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 1: men used to worship their swords, that also kind of

372
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: smacks of what we were talking about earlier, as does

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Speaker 1: the use of the word demons. And again we'll come

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00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 1: back to that shortly. But here's another bit. This one

375
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: is from the Cattle Rate of Coolie, and this concerns

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00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 1: our our hero Cucolin once again. Quote then he put

377
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Speaker 1: on his head his crested war helmet of battle and

378
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,399
Speaker 1: strife and conflict from it was uttered the shout of

379
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 1: a hundred warriors, with a long drawn outcry from every

380
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 1: corner and angle of it, For they're used to cry

381
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: from it like and then there are a few different

382
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 1: um like old Irish cries, which I will not try

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00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 1: to repeat here, uh, you know, just just in case

384
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what their translation is.

385
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 1: Might anger at the warriors of old um quote and

386
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 1: demons of the air before him and above him and

387
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: around him wherever he went, prophesiesing the shedding of the

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00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 1: blood of warriors and champions. Now, obviously this is a

389
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 1: helm as opposed to a weapon, but still it contains

390
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 1: a record and it sort of speaks now if it's

391
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: saying here though, it's not just recall calling a record

392
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: of the past. But it uses the word prophesying, which

393
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: makes me think that it's speaking of the future or

394
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 1: is this just a version of prophesying that speaks of

395
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 1: the past. Um. I think we are getting into divination

396
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 1: here a bit, because as m as we'll touch on

397
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: on later, you also see the idea of the sword

398
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 1: as this kind of focus of divination in many different cultures.

399
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: Now here's another account of of weapons doing battle on

400
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 1: their own, kind of like our our ancient Sumerian example

401
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,479
Speaker 1: of from earlier. And this is from the death of

402
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 1: a Maladron macdemo Krone sometimes the violent death, and it

403
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 1: contains a passage about a spear that would leap into

404
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: battle on its own and require tribute. Um Actually I

405
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 1: don't have the exact quote from that, but but that's

406
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 1: the that's just the sum of summarizing of what occurs.

407
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: But then in the mescal Ulad there's a description, uh,

408
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: not only of Cuculin leaping into battle, but his weapons

409
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,959
Speaker 1: are described as leaping into battle as well, um like

410
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: as if like by his side, as if by their

411
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: own will. Like they're not just things that he brings

412
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: with him into weapons. They're not just tools of war

413
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 1: they were. They're kind of like companions. And then in

414
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 1: the destruction of Daderga's hostel, there's a living lance called loon,

415
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: which I think bores says it just means the lance,

416
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 1: but Borche rights when this lance is ready to shed blood,

417
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: it has to be quenched regularly in a cauldron with poison,

418
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 1: otherwise the lance will catch fire. Used in battle, this

419
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 1: weapon is extremely dangerous. Whoa. So basically Bore summarizes that

420
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: weapons are guarantees for truth about battle deeds of the past. Um,

421
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: we see this, this idea, this hint of them being

422
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 1: able to prophesies the future, even weapons know what has

423
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: been done with them. And there's also this idea of

424
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: of other beings speaking through them. Now and then, of

425
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: course we've used the word demon already. Now. Um, obviously

426
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: you don't have to know much about about Christian history

427
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: ease of pre Christian times to know that the ways

428
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: and beliefs of the old days are often recast as

429
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: blasphemy or worse. And in this case, the idea of

430
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 1: men worshiping their weapons, or or of demons speaking to

431
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: them through the sword, clearly smack of this. Now where

432
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: Boorch ultimately lands on this issue, as it is that

433
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: the term demons may simply be a summarization of the

434
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: infernal deities or furies Alecto too, sephony uh Megara, as

435
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: well as the war goddess Bellona. Now these are Greek

436
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: and Roman goddesses. Um. And this, you know, again gets

437
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: with the history of translating and reinterpreting these stories. But

438
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: the Irish war goddess is of course the Morrigan who

439
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: we I believe we talked about in our what we

440
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: talked about the Morrigan in the Phantom morgana episode. So

441
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: sometimes she is an individual and other times though she

442
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: is a triad of the war goddesses um batub Uh,

443
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: Macha and nim Jane. Now in early Irish texts, Bore

444
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: says that the Morrigan is sometimes equated with the monstrous

445
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: Lamia or also or also equated with lilith uh and

446
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 1: relegated to the underworld. So there's you know this this

447
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: continuing tradition of this um. But but I want to

448
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: read this, uh this this quote here from the text,

449
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: She writes, quote, this survey from the Tane shows the

450
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: war goddesses appear in battle contexts in which they utter ominous,

451
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: terrifying and inciting shouts, just like the battle creatures from

452
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: Part two Part in Part two earlier in this documentary

453
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: is referring to demonic creatures inhabiting weapons and shouting therefrom

454
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 1: at the height of the fight. Uh. She continues, the

455
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: battle creatures are sometimes referred to in the same context,

456
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: and they are somewhat closer to the sword demons of

457
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: of Sir legi con coolin and that they too are

458
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: directly connected with weapons. The connection is more indirect in

459
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: the case of the war goddesses. The most striking example

460
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: is the is the arm grid. This is the clamor

461
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: alarms caused by an attack by a war goddess, but

462
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: this is less similar than the shouts from weapons and armor. However,

463
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: what brings the war goddess is closer to the oracular

464
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: utterances of the sword. Demons are their prophetic words in

465
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: battle context. This prophetical function of the war goddesses is

466
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: not only found in the Taine, but also in other

467
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: early Irish texts. Interesting. Okay, so this does come back

468
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: to the the divinatory or oracular properties he alluded to. Yeah. Yeah,

469
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: it's almost like the sword is a thing that um

470
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: that kind of stands outside of time. It's connected to

471
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: all the deaths before it, and it's connected to all

472
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: the deaths ahead of it, or the sword stands outside

473
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: of time, or something that speaks through the sword stands

474
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: outside of time. Yeah. The sword is almost like a

475
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: like a it's a radio for talking to God. It's

476
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: a you know, it's like a conduit in a way. Yeah. Yeah,

477
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: Now outside of actually speaking swords. The use of swords

478
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: and other blades and divination practices is pretty widespread. Um.

479
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 1: I was looking around for some some interesting specific examples.

480
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: I ran across a few from Asia that we're that

481
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: we're pretty pretty neat. We see this in Korean divination

482
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: and some Korean divination practices. And this was discussed by

483
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: Yun Young Lee and Korean shamanistic rituals from one the

484
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: primary focuses on Korean shamanism or moodang, and there's a

485
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: they discussed there's a variety of double edged Korean sword

486
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: known as a gillam that is sometimes used in divination,

487
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: as well as a as a Korean variation of the

488
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: three edge spear or trident. I'm also to understand that

489
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: swords were sometimes a part of a traditional divination kit

490
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: for some Thai communities in Vietnam, according to a Thai

491
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: divination kit in the Vietnam Museum of Ethnology by vivan

492
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: On from the Vietnam Museum of Ethnology. And there of

493
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: course numerous exam bolls of ritual daggers and blades used

494
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: in various practices that either are you know, um objectively

495
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: divination practices or could be interpreted as having divinational aspects

496
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: to them. Uh, and we even see it carried on

497
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,239
Speaker 1: as a symbol in the likes of Taro. The thing

498
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: about Tarot actually kind of reminds me of um, of

499
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: of the Egyptian art that we were talking about earlier,

500
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: because they're both examples of this thing you see very commonly,

501
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: which is that weapons are very often um, inanimate objects

502
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: that are infused with lots of meaning. They're they're charged with,

503
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: you know, their symbols in a way, or their signs

504
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: that that that point to all these different concepts, and

505
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: they seem to have great stakes and import Yeah. Absolutely,

506
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: I was, and I was thinking a bit about about this,

507
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: like what, you know, what does all of this mean?

508
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: And um, I guess I was reminded in part by

509
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: that that that quote from The Simpsons where Homer talks

510
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: about how it feels when he holds a gun that

511
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: is like how God must feel when he holds a gun,

512
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: which is a ridiculous quote, but but I think, you know,

513
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: does get to it to a truth. There's something about

514
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 1: in this case holding a say a sword or a dagger,

515
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: especially one with a violent history, that it does have

516
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: the ability to induce a certain kind of thinking or feeling.

517
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: You know, we hold it, and in holding it, we

518
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: update our body schema to include this weapon. It becomes

519
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,719
Speaker 1: a part of us, a part of our body, and

520
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: so too, to a certain extent, does its history and

521
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: its purpose. You know, Um, it's just something that's just

522
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: something about holding holding a tool, and in this case

523
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: that tool would be say a sword or or a mace.

524
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean i'd imagine that the same way

525
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: we we've talked about how driving a car changes your

526
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: relationship to other people. While you're you know, so you're

527
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: operating a car, you don't really see other people the

528
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: same way you would if you were just standing next

529
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: to them on the sidewalk. You know that they might

530
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: start to become slightly less people like and more kind

531
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: of like irritating, obstacle like, or you know, there's something

532
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: about seeing them through the windshield maybe makes them less significant.

533
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: And you know, you've got to wonder about like holding

534
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: a deadly weapon or something that maybe not only could

535
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: be used as a weapon, but is definitely forged to

536
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: be a highly effective killing tool. Uh, does that also

537
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: sort of change your relationship to people around you? While

538
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: you're holding it. Yeah, So so it makes me wonder,

539
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: you know, to a certain extent, some of what we're

540
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: discussing here. It's like the fantastic and the legend area,

541
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 1: the mythic and the magical reverberations of of something that

542
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: all of us or even or maybe just a lot

543
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: of us can sense if we we hold that weapon

544
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: or even just like see that way, Like it's for me.

545
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: I always find it interesting to see some of these

546
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: like these really old weapons were well preserved, and in

547
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: some cases they were purely ceremonial uh in museums. Uh,

548
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: you know, just just looking at them and thinking about,

549
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: you know, what they are and how long they've been

550
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: around than now. Another way of looking at this subject

551
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: is not to emphasize the weaponness, but just to think

552
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: about these stories as stories of an inanimate object or

553
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: tool of some kind that has a mind and speaks

554
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: and has a will of its own. In other words,

555
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: that it is an inanimate object that has the properties

556
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: of an agent. And this is a subject we've talked

557
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: about a number of times on the show before. But

558
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: I was trying to think about like what this might

559
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: represent in the psychological context. So I found a paper

560
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: that I wanted to talk about briefly. Uh. This is

561
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: by Amanda Hanks Johnson and Justin Barrett, published in the

562
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: Journal of Cognition and Culture in the year two thousand three,

563
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: called the Role of Control in Attributing intentional agency to

564
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: Inanimate Objects. And so one of the authors here, it's

565
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: worth noting, is Justin Barrett, who is a psychologist who

566
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: has written a lot of interesting things about the psychology

567
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: of religion. He was actually the author of that paper

568
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: we covered a couple of years ago about whether or

569
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: not Santa Claus should be thought of as a god.

570
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that was an awesome paper. Yeah. Recall Barrett's

571
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: conclusion on Santa Claus was basically not quite a god,

572
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: but very very close. He had like five criteria that

573
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: god seemed to have in common, and he said that

574
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: Santa Claus, in some contexts I think had all five

575
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: of them, but these criteria were sort of inconsistently applied

576
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: to him, so very very close. But anyway, in this study,

577
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: the authors wanted to look at the phenomenon of attributing

578
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: agency to inanimate objects. So when you regard an object

579
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: like say a mace or a sword, for example, as

580
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: if it had the qualities of a person, such as

581
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: a mind with goals and intentional behavior, and this would

582
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: this would include flying into battle on its own or

583
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: or speaking or something like that. What causes us to

584
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: start thinking about inanimate objects as if they were intentional agents? Uh,

585
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: And so they start off talking about some factors that

586
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: were revealed by pre existing research. One of the things

587
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: they talk about is the concept of an agency detection device.

588
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: This is a sort of hypothetical module of the human

589
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: brain that is often invoked as one possible factor contributing

590
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: to the origins of supernatural and religious beliefs. Of course,

591
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: all you know, speculation like that into the deep evolutionary

592
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: psychology of humankind is highly speculative, but it seems at

593
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: least like a plausible idea worth exploring. That um that essentially,

594
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: there is a selection bias on the human brain in

595
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: favor of h when given an ambiguous stimuli like you

596
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: see something vaguely moving to lean toward, assuming that it

597
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: is an agent with the ability to act on its

598
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: own intentions rather than just a physical object being stirred

599
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: by the wind. Because it's you know, it's more cautious

600
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: to assume it's an age. Agents are more dangerous and

601
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: you need to be more ready to guard against their behavior,

602
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: And of course agents would include not just humans but

603
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: also animals. But this study itself has less to do

604
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: with with possible psychological explanations for the origins of religion,

605
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: is more just about what people do in the moment,

606
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: how they spontaneously speak as if they were attributing agency

607
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 1: to clearly inanimate objects like ball bearings. Now, previous research

608
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: had showed that people regularly participate in agent attribution even

609
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: with objects as simple as two dimensional geometric shapes on

610
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: a display. So so these other studies had shown that

611
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: people will talk about objects like a triangle on a

612
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: screen and talk about them as if they have characteristics

613
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: such as beliefs, desires or goals, emotional states, and genders.

614
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: And one of the major factors established by this previous

615
00:34:55,239 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: research is the importance of movement in in creating these

616
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: types of attributions. And it's also not just any movement uh.

617
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: These studies found that we are especially likely to attribute

618
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 1: agency to objects that move in what the authors here

619
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: would call non inertial paths without being contacted UH. And

620
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: this is sometimes equated to movement that appears to be

621
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: in a goal directed manner. So non inertial paths means that,

622
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: you know, if you see a stone rolling down a

623
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: hill just following what would be the obvious apparent course

624
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: of gravity, you're much less likely to attribute agency to

625
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: that stone than you would to a stone that just

626
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: suddenly rolls in one direction on a flat surface without

627
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: any apparent cause. So that seems pretty intuitive, right, Like that,

628
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: we're less likely to start wondering if something is an

629
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 1: agent if we just see it apparently obeying the laws

630
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: of physics. If something moves in a way where we

631
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: can't clearly see a physical cause for it to move

632
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: that way outside of itself, then we start thinking like,

633
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: woe is that thing alive? But then the authors here

634
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: looked at another feature beyond just non inertial pathways of movement,

635
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: and that feature is the control of the observer. So

636
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: what they did here to test this was they used

637
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 1: an experimental setup where participants were recorded describing their actions

638
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: out loud while they tried to move a number of

639
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: metal ball bearings around on a surface like a tabletop,

640
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: and underneath that surface there were electro magnets that could

641
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: be turned on and off that could influence the path

642
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: of the balls and how the balls moved around on

643
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,959
Speaker 1: this table. So the two conditions of the experiment where

644
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: you had one condition where participants had direct control over

645
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: the magnets. They had a switch or switches that they

646
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: could switch on and off that were tied to a

647
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: light that would go on and off when the magnets

648
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: were activated and deactivated. So they were controlling the method

649
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: by which the paths of the balls were diverted. And

650
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: then you had another condition, or the participants were moving

651
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: the balls around, but they had no perception of control

652
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: over the magnets. Instead, an experiment er was turning the

653
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: magnets on and off. And the results were in line

654
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: with the author's hypothesis. A greater number of participants in

655
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: the no control condition, the one where they could not

656
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: control what the magnets were doing, a greater number of

657
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: them spontaneously made statements attributing mind like agency to the

658
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 1: balls compared to the condition where people could control the magnets.

659
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: And so what were the spontaneous statements people made that

660
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: attributed agency. It would be things like um like relational expressions. So,

661
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: for example, apologizing to the balls. One quote is oops,

662
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: sorry ball uh, sometimes naming the balls to quote from

663
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: the study here describing a relationship with the marbles in

664
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: terms that are literally appropriate only for animals and people,

665
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: but not physical objects, such as marble's e g. Quote

666
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: and a couple of ones did not like me um

667
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: and then a couple of the other ones where statements

668
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: about the ball bearings like having desires like oh look,

669
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: those two are kissing, or that one didn't want to

670
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: stay there, or saying that the balls are fighting each other.

671
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: So the results would seem to back up the idea

672
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: that we are more likely to spontaneously attribute agency to

673
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 1: inanimate objects not just when they move in non inertial paths,

674
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: but also when they do so in ways that we

675
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: understand to be outside of our direct control or outside

676
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: the direct control of a human agents such as ourselves.

677
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 1: One interesting side note is that while a greater number

678
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: of members of the no control group made at least

679
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: one agency attribution statement, if you were to just count

680
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: up the numbers of statements, one participant in the in

681
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: control group actually went hog wild, making tons of statements,

682
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: including naming some of the marble's That this one participant

683
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: is where you get the person who started calling one

684
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: of the ball bearings Bob. The most common types of

685
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: agency attributions across all conditions were people ascribing desires and

686
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: dispositions to the to the marbles, such as wanting or

687
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: liking uh. And so the study did support the author's

688
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: hypothesis that that objects moving beyond our controls are more

689
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: likely to be seen as agents. But one thing that

690
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: I thought was interesting was they actually recorded less spontaneous

691
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: agency attribution overall than a number of previous studies. For example,

692
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: the ones using geometric shapes displayed on a screen, and

693
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: they tried to talk about why that was. They say, quote,

694
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: Perhaps the representational character of the animated displays introduces bias

695
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: that contributes to the willingness of participants to attribute beliefs, desires,

696
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: and personality traits to geometric shapes. At least adult observers

697
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: understand that images in motion pictures often represent intentional agents. Further,

698
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: while the shapes in the displays certainly do not have

699
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: beliefs or desires, intend national agents who do have beliefs

700
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: and desires orchestrate their movements. Perhaps these conceptual factors of

701
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: the displays contribute to the attribution of agency in animated displays.

702
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: But there was one more section I wanted to read

703
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: that that I thought was interesting, where they were trying

704
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: to explain what could be going on, uh and and

705
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 1: relating this to to ecologically valid everyday experiences of people

706
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: attributing agency to inanimate objects. And and this relates to

707
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: the condition once again of control over these objects. They write, quote,

708
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: the suggestion is that we treat cars and computers as

709
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: intentional agents, not only because of their perceptual features or

710
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 1: self propelledness. Indeed, we be rate our cars when they

711
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: quote refuse to move, and not when they do move. Rather,

712
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: it is when objects action violates our own sense of

713
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: causal efficacy that we attribute agency to them. When the

714
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: computer either does something I did not ask it to

715
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: do or does not do something I asked it to do,

716
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: it's then that I remark that it is angry with me.

717
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: Feelings of frustration are the consequence of lacking control, feeling

718
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: that it is no longer my agency that accounts for

719
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 1: what I perceive, but some other agency that I cannot control.

720
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: And this was interesting because it made me think about

721
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: possible origins of people especially looking to weapons used in

722
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: battle as something that that has a mind of its

723
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: own or could speak of its own accord, because I

724
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: could imagine that violent struggle is is a time when

725
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: you are especially prone probably to frustrations with the physical

726
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: workings of your tools. Like you know, when when you're

727
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: you're swinging a sword or a mace in battle and

728
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: it doesn't do exactly what you wanted it to do.

729
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: That seems like one of the most irritating possible situations

730
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: where that could happen. Right, So you might be especially

731
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: prone then to think this thing has a mind of

732
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: its own and it is actually an agent in some way. Yeah,

733
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: the sword has decided that I'm not worthy to wield it,

734
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: and that is why it it seems to fail me suddenly. Yeah.

735
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 1: And and this also I think comes into the old

736
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: idea of like trial by combat. You know, so people

737
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: are very familiar with trial by combat from Game of

738
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: Thrones these days, but like it is an actual ancient practice.

739
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: And one of the things that is often assumed about

740
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: trial by combat is that trial by combat reveals the

741
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: will of the gods that there is you know, that

742
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: there is divine intervention that reaches in and controls whose

743
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: weapons and armor and all that get the better of

744
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: the other one. And thus the truth is shown not

745
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: by who has the strongest warrior, but by which side

746
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: the God's intervened on. Behalf of Now, one thing that

747
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: comes to mind and all of this, taking taking it

748
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: into kind of all of this and comparing it to

749
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 1: the weapons too, is well. First of all, I'm imagining

750
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: like the warrior or psyche during the height of battle.

751
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously that's going to be a situation where

752
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a lot of I mean, there's there's

753
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: there's probably a flow state going on to some degree.

754
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: In some cases, it's also highly energized and traumatic time, um,

755
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: which is going to have its own psychological effect. But

756
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: also I'm thinking if you if you're dealing especially with

757
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: a professional warrior, uh, a warrior who is who is

758
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: skilled with their weapon, who has say, run drills with

759
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: their weapon, is uh to them, the use of this

760
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: sword or this mace is just second nature. UM. It

761
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: makes me think of the the sometimes receptible disconnect between

762
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: will in the mind and movement in the body, and

763
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,879
Speaker 1: I wonder if that could at times help nurture this

764
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,479
Speaker 1: idea that sometimes it is not me who is who

765
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: is who is striking out with the sword. Sometimes it

766
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: is the sword striking out and I am just following it.

767
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, that's really interesting. That lines up with

768
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Um though, there's a contradiction here worth exploring,

769
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: which is that, um So, if there is any truth

770
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: whatsoever to us, you know, speculating that that maybe uh,

771
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: maybe it's because of extreme frustration with you know, a

772
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: sword or a mace not doing exactly what you wanted

773
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: to do when you you swing it in a fight.

774
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: That causes people to to infuse it with the idea

775
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: of agency and think this has this has a mind

776
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 1: of its own. This would kind of go against a

777
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: lot of the stories which are about weapons not failing

778
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: in battle but having these really special, awesome powers, like

779
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,439
Speaker 1: doing more than you want doing, doing what you want

780
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: beyond what you can make it do with your hands. Well,

781
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: I wonder in that. I mean, it's easy to look

782
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 1: back on these accounts and think of, you know, think

783
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: of any type of actual human that could have you

784
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: been a part of, say that the colclon myth Um

785
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: and just imagine well that this was a bloodthirsty professional

786
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: warrior who you know, never looked back and reflected on

787
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: the deeds they performed on the battlefield. But on the

788
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 1: other hand, I wonder if you know, what if it's

789
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: not the case, what if you have characters like this,

790
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: I mean really in Clocolan, we also see this idea

791
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: of the warp spasm, the idea that he becomes something

792
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 1: out of control on the battlefield, you know. So so

793
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: maybe there is this Maybe there in some cases there

794
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: is this sense that like, Okay, after the battle, when

795
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: you're reflecting on what you did, perhaps there are moments

796
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: within that battle that that are in conflict with what

797
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: you think about as your nature and and maybe that

798
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: allows you to lean into this idea of the weapon

799
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 1: having this empowering or even wilful uh uh property to it,

800
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 1: or maybe like what you think is the is the gods,

801
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: or what you think is like you know, the divine

802
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: taz or something is actually adrenaline. Yeah, and maybe like

803
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: a disconnect to with just sort of the state of

804
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: mind and like the reflective mind and the you know,

805
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: the reactive mind of of of a pure combat situation

806
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: right at the time, Yeah, it just makes sense to

807
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,479
Speaker 1: just keep pounding the enemy into the dirt with your mace.

808
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: Then afterwards you're like, oh, that was a bit much.

809
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 1: Why did I just not stop pounding their skull into

810
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: the dust? Um, that doesn't seem like me. I don't know,

811
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: but this is this is mere speculation on my part. Sure,

812
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 1: But even outside of combat, I mean there are times,

813
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 1: even in the you know, the noncombatants life, where reflexes

814
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: will at times seem to come from beyond us. You know.

815
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,919
Speaker 1: I can think of like a time where, uh, my

816
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: my son, who was a toddler at the time, he like,

817
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: he falls off of a ladder on some stairs, and

818
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: my arm just shoots out and grabs his leg in midfall,

819
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: you know which, And at the time I'm like, oh wow,

820
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: I'm already holding him. I already caught him, Like I

821
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 1: did not seem like a wilful act, like, oh he's following,

822
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: I better catch him. It's just you just react, you know.

823
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: And if one is given to interpret that in in

824
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: a supernatural way, you know, you might think, well, you know,

825
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: this is this was God working through me. This was

826
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,879
Speaker 1: some angel or demon taking control of my arm and

827
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: doing this deed seemed to occur outside of my my

828
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: my actual willful cognition. It is amazing. And another amazing

829
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: way to interpret it is the physical way, which is

830
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 1: like your brain did that and then your consciousness had

831
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: to catch up. Yeah. Yeah, I mean obviously that is

832
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: the you know, the truth of the matter. And I

833
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: think that the one thing I do want to drive

834
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: home about all of this is that like all of

835
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: these explanations within the human psyche and within the human body,

836
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: I think are the most amazing. And that's even if

837
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: you get into, you know, some of the more controversial hypotheses,

838
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: like you know, the bicameral mind, which I think there

839
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: are a lot of fun applications for that when we're

840
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: looking at this topic. But I also see interpretations of

841
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: some of these mythic weapons. Is like, oh, well, obviously

842
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: this was ancient aliens. Obviously the mace that flew across

843
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: the battlefield and reported back, this was some sort of

844
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: alien technology that the ancient Sumerians acquired. Um, you know.

845
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: I I mean, yes, if you're being very if if

846
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: you're willing to go that way, you can, I guess

847
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: you can explain things away that in that regard, But

848
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: I feel like you're you're missing that where the true

849
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 1: wonder lies. You know, you're missing the where the true

850
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: magic is, and that is in the complex way that

851
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: we interact with objects and enter and and contemplate our

852
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 1: own actions. Well yeah, and also I would just say

853
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: like that there is no particular reason to conclude ancient aliens,

854
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: Like there is no evidence for it, and there's like no,

855
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: there's no circumstances that demands it as a conclusion. So

856
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: it's just so you could equally just say, like, well,

857
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 1: maybe it was time travelers. I mean, I can't rule

858
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,720
Speaker 1: it out, but there's no particular reason to think that's true. Um.

859
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 1: But you know, the other thing that I often harp

860
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: on on this show is that we enjoy looking for

861
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: possible physical circumstances and scientific explanations that could give rise

862
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: to you know, experiences people had or things people witness

863
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: that could serve as the inspiration for mythological concepts like

864
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: talking weapons or weapons within with the mind of their own.

865
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: But also I've said this a million times, there's also

866
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: just human creativity. I Mean, sometimes people just come up

867
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: with stories like it doesn't necessarily have to be that

868
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: somebody saw something happen or had an experience themselves that

869
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: felt like they were holding a weapon that was alive

870
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: and had a mind of its own, that that could

871
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: have happened, and that would be really interesting along the

872
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: lines we've been talking about. But you also don't have

873
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: to assume that. I mean, we know from the modern era,

874
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: a lot of times people just come up with cool

875
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: and strange creative ideas. Yeah, and the thing about like

876
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: a lot of these these sci fi ideas that again,

877
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: and some people are are more inclined to take a

878
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 1: modern sci fi concept and apply it backwards in time

879
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: as an explanation as an actual like real world explanation

880
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 1: for what's say, uh you know that that fantastic mace

881
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: of Nenurta was uh where in reality? Like the modern

882
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: sci fi fantasy is perhaps better understood as a as

883
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 1: a reverberation from the original trope. You know, like this

884
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: is just continuation in the fantastic imaginative way of thinking

885
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: that has been around for a long time. It is

886
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: not you know, this is the thing that came before

887
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 1: the flying club that turns into a lion and and

888
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: and catches mountains on fire. That is the thing that

889
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,399
Speaker 1: helps explain our modern science fiction dreams, not the other

890
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: way around. You know. An interesting thing about that is

891
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: that somebody might come back at you and say, well,

892
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: but science fiction, while having these same tropes, is based

893
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: on technology, which makes it more plausible. Um, and I

894
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: guess you could say that, but uh, but it also

895
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 1: strikes me is that a wonderful way of framing that,

896
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: is that the course of human history and scientific and

897
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: technological development is reality catching up with myths. Yeah, yea,

898
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: though I would I do have to point out to that,

899
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: like a mace is technology, you know, like like any

900
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: idea of of a of a magical mace or a

901
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 1: magical sword, those those are technological stories as well. That's

902
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: a deadly simple machine. I believe a mace counts as

903
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 1: a level her Yeah. All right, Well, we're gonna go

904
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 1: ahead and close the book on this, but we'd love

905
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: to hear from everybody. We'd love to hear from your

906
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: thoughts on on what we discussed here, but also examples

907
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: of sentient or possibly sentient weapons from other uh myths

908
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: and legends as well as science fiction and fantasy treatments

909
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: as well. Uh. Now, and now, one thing I do

910
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: want to mention here. We opened with a rather dark

911
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: reading from the Kola Vada, So I wanted to stress this.

912
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 1: If you're troubled by suicidal thoughts, you are not alone.

913
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: In a sympathetic ear is only a phone call away.

914
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: In the United States, considered calling the National Suicide Prevention

915
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 1: Hotline at one two, seven, three, eight to five five.

916
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,280
Speaker 1: You can also visit the website, which is Suicide Prevention

917
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: Lifeline dot org and for additional resources tailored towards general

918
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: and specific needs such as those of youth, disaster survivors,

919
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 1: Native Americans, veterans, lost survivors, lgbt q I, a UH,

920
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 1: and attempt survivors. You'll find a list of international UH

921
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: suicide hotlines at suicide dot org um and then you

922
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: can go to the International suicide Hotline section of that website.

923
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: Big thanks, as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

924
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch

925
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

926
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

927
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: say hello, you can email us as always at contact

928
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to

929
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For

930
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio

931
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: app Apple podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.