1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: As media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode, So 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,159 Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. It's 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: me James, and I'm joined today by Kevin McDonald, who 11 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: previously served as a senior officer in the Irish Defense 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: Forces with Special Forces experience and has significant experience working 13 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: all over the world after that with United Nations and 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: other organizations. And Kevin, welcome to the show. I'm glad 15 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 2: to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, hopefully I've 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: done a good job introducing you. I'm always terrible at that. Yeah, 17 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 2: what we thought we talked about today, Kevin is you 18 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: have significant experience in Lebanon with UNIPHIL and I think 19 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 2: obviously when we've spoken about this before, we've spoken about 20 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 2: it from a sort of looking at it from above, 21 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: strategic level. But what we've not spoken about is what 22 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 2: it looks like on the ground. So hopefully you can 23 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: give us some insight into that, especially having been there 24 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: both as like an enlisted soldier and as an officer. 25 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: I think ye, can you explain at first? I think 26 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: there's been a lot of the confusion or misinformation about 27 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 2: like how did these Irish If we look at the 28 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: Irish soldiers, that's the one you've obviously the most experienced with, 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: how do they end up deployed to Lebanon. Is it 30 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: a voluntary thing? Do they sort of say, put a 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: hand up a sat I want to do this, or 32 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: is it your units going so you're going, okay? 33 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 3: Well, just I suppose as a brief reminder to your listeners, 34 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 3: UNIFIL is the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, and 35 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 3: it's been interim since nineteen seventy eight. What it started first, 36 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 3: the Irish were one of the first countries to sign 37 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 3: up to deploy a battalion there, and we had a 38 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 3: battalion in Lebanon nineteen seventy eight until two thousand and 39 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 3: In two thousand, the Israelis withdrew from what they called 40 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: a security zone about like a ten kilometer buffer zone 41 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 3: in southern Lebanon. 42 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: So when they did that and. 43 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 3: Retreat to the frontier between the two countries and a 44 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 3: part of its battalion, it left a few staff officers there, 45 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 3: but it didn't supply a battalion anymore. It was concentrating 46 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 3: on the missions in Syria and other places. And then 47 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 3: after the two thousand and six war they were asked 48 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: to come back with a battalion and we've been there 49 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 3: ever since with an infantry battalion. In relation to your 50 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 3: question about it, is it a volunteer mission, it is 51 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 3: for most people. However, there have been people who will 52 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 3: be what's known as mandatory selected if they have certain 53 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 3: skill sets, whether it be a doctor, whether it be whatever. 54 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: Happens to be. 55 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: If you know, if the army can't get sufficient volunteers, 56 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: then they will mandatory select. But generally speaking, certainly in 57 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 3: the early years, it was actually quite difficult to get 58 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 3: to become a volunteer for Leblon because so many people 59 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: wanted to go there because there is, you know, there's 60 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 3: a bit of a financial incentive to do that as well. 61 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 3: I deployed there as a private soldier in nineteen eighty four. 62 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: I wasn't even twelve months in the army at that stage, 63 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: and within two months I was made in acting corporate. 64 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 3: So then I went back as an officer in nineteen 65 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: ninety three where we had a seven day war operational accountability. 66 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 3: I was back in ninety ninety six as an officer 67 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: for another seven day war, operation Grapes of Wrath, and 68 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 3: I ended up there with my family as an unarmed 69 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 3: military observer in two thousand and six for a full 70 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 3: thirty four days of carnage. So yeah, Lebanon was always 71 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 3: well regarded by the Arish Defense forces because it did 72 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 3: the couple of things. It exposed troops to not just 73 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 3: new cultures and new areas, but it'll exposed them to 74 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: danger as well. And it also gave a chance for 75 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 3: young NCOs and young officers to to physically lead their 76 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: troops in a challenging environment, which you don't always get, 77 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: you know, when you're at home in Ireland or with 78 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 3: the UK or whatever, you don't always get that type 79 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 3: of leadership experience. 80 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 81 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 3: Plus you're exposed to other cultures, whether it be the 82 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 3: Nordic countries or you know, you're exposed to different ways 83 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 3: of operating and yeah, all in all, it's been it's 84 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 3: been a positive experience. But I would find out that 85 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: since we started there, we've lost far to get troops 86 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 3: killed in Lebanon. 87 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's because not an insignificant amount, especially considering like 88 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 2: the Irish Defense Forces are much smaller when if people 89 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: are more familiar with the US military, right, which is 90 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: more than a million people, you know, forty eight is 91 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: a significant amount. You talked about how it exposes you 92 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 2: to look at other cultures, and obviously one of them 93 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: is like the Lebanese people. But it's a very international deployment, right, 94 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 2: It's you're not just sort of sitting there on your 95 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 2: Irish based with Irish Defense Forces. People are not interacting 96 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: with other military So can you explain like some of 97 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,119 Speaker 2: the other country bees that have this long history there. 98 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: When I went there in nineteen eighty four, there was 99 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 3: a battalion from Fiji, Finland, France, Ghana, ourselves, the Netherlands, 100 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: Norway and Senegal with a strength at the time of 101 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 3: about six thousand. When I was there as an unarm 102 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 3: Military Observer with UNSO, which is a different mission, the 103 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 3: strength had dropped to two thousand in two thousand and six, 104 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 3: which just two battalions, a Caname battalion and an Indian battalion. 105 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: And now essentially since after the war in two thousand 106 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 3: and six they started building up, there's probably about ten 107 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 3: thousand troops there at the moment. There recently huge interaction 108 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,559 Speaker 3: at the battalion level between different nations. In other words, 109 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 3: a battalion will have its own area of responsibility, it's 110 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 3: responsible for patrolling. 111 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:47,679 Speaker 2: In that area. 112 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 3: Now with the likes of unso that you're much more 113 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 3: exposed to other armies, other nationalities because essentially every time 114 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 3: you go patrolling, you can't, like two Irish officers couldn't 115 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 3: patrol together because if they see an infringement, whether it's 116 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 3: a firing clause, whether it's one side sending drowns into 117 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 3: Lebanon an the other side sending controcial rockets in Israel, 118 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 3: they are all violations. Yeah, but to record it as 119 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 3: a violation, you can't have two people from the same country, 120 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: So okay, you're you're much more exposed as as a 121 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 3: foreign nationalities. 122 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and there's certainly a lot of national I know, 123 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: the Indonesians are there now and the contingent from India. 124 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 2: When people talk about UNIFIL now a lot you'll see 125 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 2: one of two accusations, right, You'll see that they're either 126 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: like they're as allies of Hezbollah in Lebanon, which is 127 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: not the case, or you'll see that they're there as 128 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: observers for the IDF or spies for the IDF. And like, obviously, 129 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: the fact that they're being accused of both probably suggests 130 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: that they are neither, because it would be fairly obvious 131 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: if they were. But can you explain the tripartite agreement? 132 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 2: It seems to me like that might make it difficult 133 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: to do the things that uniform is supposed to be doing. 134 00:06:58,760 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: Is that fair? 135 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 3: It's I think it's I think it's a fair assessment. 136 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 3: And if you're if both sides are complaining about you, 137 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 3: as you say, it probably does indicate that you're you're at. 138 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: Least doing something right. 139 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: So UNIFIL, it's it's a peacekeeper mission and they're there 140 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 3: with the agreement of both parties. So, in other words, 141 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: the Lebanese government and the Israeli government have agreed that 142 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: UNIFIL be established in Lebanon. That's the first thing to 143 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 3: point out. The second thing, which is kind of contentious now, 144 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 3: especially with the extent of hes Budus Tunnels is being exposed. 145 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 3: Is that there's a lot of generally misinformed chatter about 146 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 3: what UNIFIL can and cannot do. So after the two 147 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 3: thousand and six War Resolution seventeen oh one was enforced 148 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 3: or was brought in to develop more thoroughly the mandate 149 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: for what UNIFIL can and cannot do, and one of 150 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 3: the stated paragraphs is that UNIFIL will assist the Lebanese 151 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 3: and forces in taking steps towards the establishment between the 152 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: Blue Line and the Latanian River of an area free 153 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those 154 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: of the Government of Lebanon and of UNIFUL deployed in 155 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 3: this area. And this is one of the failings. But 156 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: it should be pointed out that it's the responsibility of 157 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 3: the LAUGH of the Lebanese armed forces to instigate it, 158 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: supported by uniform right, not UNIFIL going in looking for 159 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: arms and weapons supported by the LAUGH. 160 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: It's the other way around. 161 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 3: And one of the difficulties that you're always going to 162 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 3: have is that Lebanon has a divided society. It's an 163 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 3: extremely rich and significant society, and I've lived there quite 164 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 3: a lot and have great respect for the people and 165 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 3: their traditions. However, the sectarianism is kind of baked into 166 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 3: how the government works, and that kind of works its 167 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: way down. So the president has to be a Marianite 168 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: Christian speak of the House has to be Shia, and 169 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 3: the Prime Minister has to be Sunny. And that division 170 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 3: was based on the last time there was a census 171 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 3: in Lebanon, which was nineteen thirty two, and since then 172 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 3: the dynamics have changed. So Hesbela is not just a 173 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 3: military organization. It's a political organization, and it's a wealthier organization. Yeah, 174 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people don't get that. And 175 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 3: it's Shia and the majority of the people in the 176 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 3: south are shere and you know a lot of them 177 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 3: get their schooling and their medication from Hesbulla. So it's 178 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 3: not just a military organization. And there's various estimates, but 179 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 3: you could be looking at them. But we say, prior 180 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: to the present conflict, maybe seventy thousand Hesbela in south 181 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 3: of Beyrootsa. We say, yeah, And some of them are 182 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 3: full time, some of them are part time, some of 183 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 3: them are just sympathizers, helpers, friends. You know, it's difficult 184 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 3: and another factor that has proven extremely difficult is so 185 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 3: when UNIFIM patrol with the Laugh, there is certain restrictions 186 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 3: that even the laugh have in terms of entering certain areas. 187 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: And what has Bullet have done is that they have 188 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 3: designated certain nature reserves and generally speaking, the laugh won't 189 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: go win there. And if the laugh won't go win, 190 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: Uniful can't go win. So the laugh for kind of 191 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 3: you know that they have a balancing act to do 192 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 3: in terms of retaining the trust of the people in 193 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 3: the South and also not causing a sectarian divide within. 194 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 2: Their own ranks. Yeah, of course. 195 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 3: And also they have another problem in terms of equipment. 196 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 3: They're sort of relying on other countries the UK, the US, 197 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: France to supply them with equipment. But like they have 198 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 3: no tanks, they have a few helicopters. They're very much 199 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 3: like there's no way they will take on. 200 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 2: Has Bullet no way, right, yeah, or the idea and 201 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: Uniful itself. 202 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: Is lightly armed, you know, it's not gone round in 203 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: tanks anything armored carriage. 204 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: Yes. 205 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 3: The only time the last time UNIFAL had tanks in 206 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 3: Lebanon was just after the war when the French deployed 207 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,239 Speaker 3: with the La Clerq. 208 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 2: Tanks, which did not please. 209 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: The locals because the Clerk tanks driving up and down 210 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 3: the roads was nearly doing as much damage as the 211 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 3: Marcava tanks during the war, and plus Lebanon isn't a 212 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 3: very tank friendly area to be operation against what we. 213 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: Say, right, Yeah, was that when the IDF came in 214 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: in then Macava tanks and the French like physically blocked 215 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 2: them with their own tanks. I can't remember when that was. 216 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 3: And I'm not aware of that, but it could will 217 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 3: happen because I know certainly back in the nineties. 218 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: That may have been. 219 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 3: When it was when Israel was operating the security zone. 220 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 3: We the Irish and our colleagues from Finland and Norway 221 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 3: had had numerous standoffs with Israelis trying to enter certain villages. 222 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 2: And yeah, but. 223 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw the day before yesterday the two I 224 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 3: think two bulldozers in the Marcava or I said, yeah, 225 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 3: two d nines broke down a U and watchtower and 226 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 3: a un fence at the un had Unifild headquarters in 227 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 3: the Cura, which is a few k from the from 228 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 3: the frontier with with Israel. Yes, I should I note 229 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 3: as well for your listeners that Israel and Lebanon have 230 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 3: been at a state of war since nineteen forty eight. 231 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 2: Yes, they've never had a seattler or a peace agreement, 232 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 2: and the Triparte Agreement is the only place where they 233 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 2: actually meet, right. 234 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, So there is a UNIFIL post a meeting normally 235 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 3: right at the frontier where you can cross between one 236 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 3: country and the other. And I keep using the word 237 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 3: frontier because it's not a border. It hasn't been officially demarketated. 238 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 3: The blue line which I mentioned earlier on simply verifies 239 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 3: that the IDEF have withdrawn into Israel, but it's. 240 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: Not the border. 241 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 3: Right However, going back to your point about the Tripartheid Agreement, 242 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 3: and that's where the senior Israeli officials senior Lebanese officials 243 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 3: under the chairmanship of UNIFIL meet and they discuss items 244 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 3: of concern that maybe UNIFIL can help or no between 245 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 3: the two of them. And in twenty twenty two they 246 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 3: managed to organize a maritime boundary okay between Lebanon and Israel, 247 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 3: which was kind of fascinating because on the western side 248 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 3: of Lebanon and the northwesterns coast of Israel, the huge 249 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: gas fields. Yeah, so the two countries actually they've agreed 250 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: their maritime boundary onto the auspices of UNIFORM. This is 251 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: still han't agree their land, but it's the first time 252 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 3: that a peacekeep mission has arranged and courage developed and 253 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 3: led successfully discussions about a maritime boundary. So the Uniform 254 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: does have some successes. 255 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I think it would be wrong to 256 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: overlook these. We'll take a quick break for adverts, then 257 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: we'll come back. We're back and Kevin, you'd mentioned that 258 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: you were in Lebanon in two thousand and six. I 259 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: think you said you're an unarms observer at that time. 260 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: Is that right, Yeah, that's right. 261 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: Yet, so one of the oldest missions in the world 262 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 3: is one so the United Nations True Supervisory Organization, and 263 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 3: that essentially was established I suppose after the forty eight war, 264 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: and it had well say, offices and observers in Egypt, Israel, Syria, 265 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 3: Jordan and Lebanon. You know that they were quite effective 266 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 3: in certain ways, Like certainly the eventual peace agreement between 267 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 3: Egypt and Israel was very much helped along by the 268 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 3: presence of Onso in Cairo and Shamer Shehak. The peace 269 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 3: agreement between Jordan and Israel again was very much assisted 270 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 3: by by Onso. So they have a kind of a 271 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 3: fairly good track record. And what they bring to the 272 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 3: table is that first of all, they're unarmed military observers, 273 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 3: which which takes some of the sting out of heaven. 274 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 3: You know, a heavily armed guy with a helmlets and 275 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 3: sunglasses walk around, you know that. And and some some armies, 276 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: as you know, can tend to be more intimidating than 277 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: others in how they how they carried themselves. So I 278 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: went there. I went to the region in two thousand 279 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: and five and I was working on the occupied Golden Heights, 280 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: living in the in Tiberias on the Sea of Galilee 281 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 3: with my wife and two kids who then were four 282 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,479 Speaker 3: and five. And in February zero six, I was transferred 283 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 3: to Lebanon and we were living in the city of Tier. 284 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: The kids were going to a local English speaking Arab 285 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 3: school and Lebanon was absolutely thriving. It must happened. We 286 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 3: had the kids in bear Rouge, we had them in 287 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 3: a man doing what they run and my normal routine. 288 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 3: We had four observation posts along the frontier with Israel. Yeah, 289 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 3: Staft by five guys who spent a week seven days 290 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 3: up there, and then you come. 291 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: Down for four or five and then go back up again. 292 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 3: And each team had its specific area to operate with, 293 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: and we say a specific battalion that we would interact with. 294 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 3: And also quite importantly, we had liais and assistants who 295 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 3: were locals, like translations, but they're a lot more important 296 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 3: than that. And based on the sectarian nature of the area, 297 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 3: you know, you'd always have a Christian, you'd always have 298 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 3: a Shia, but you could have the Jews. If you 299 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 3: were further up to the north, you could have Sunneny. 300 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 3: And each team had four or five of these because 301 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: we used to send two patrols out each day. So 302 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 3: we had huge interaction with the locals and armor, with 303 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: the mayors and the mucktars, and we were very much 304 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: a force multiplier for UNIFIL because we could get information 305 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: from people. You know, we used to stop and have 306 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 3: lunch in some of the little restaurants, and we were 307 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 3: always talking to people, and you know, it was the 308 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 3: window down, waving out, having a chat, learning a bit 309 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 3: of Arabic. Whereas UNIFIL by its nature goes around the 310 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 3: armor cars and even if you stop and you get 311 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 3: out and you take off the sunglasses, people will just 312 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 3: react differently to two guys with a local that they 313 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 3: know in the car. 314 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, as about someone in full battle rattle again. Now, 315 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: we definitely were. 316 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 3: But the or kicked off on the twelfth of July 317 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 3: two thousand and six and I was I had done 318 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 3: on patrol to pick up or Christian liaison assistant in 319 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 3: her village and literally we were heading off on patrol 320 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 3: and over the radio, all stations go to the nearest 321 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 3: uent position immediately. The nearest U went position tours at 322 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 3: the time was an Indian platoon position on top of 323 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: a hill. From my past experience, I had reckoned that 324 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: there was a bit of stuff going on either in 325 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 3: shape the farms, which is a disputed area in the 326 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 3: southeastern part of Lebanon, up in the mountains. So I 327 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 3: said to the guy that was with me, I said, look, 328 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 3: this could be over a couple of hours. Let's go 329 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 3: straight back to our patrol base. And you know, we 330 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 3: knew we had a food the facility, and we also 331 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 3: knew we had a good bunker in the place, so 332 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: we had it back at a fair age of nuts. 333 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 3: Shall we say, and normally when we would have two 334 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 3: patrols out, there'd be one guy left in the patrol 335 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 3: base and he'd be responsible for radio checks and all 336 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. But what we do is, when 337 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 3: we were about maybe a kilometer away, we would inform 338 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 3: our headquarters in the Kura that were closing down at 339 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: our final destination, which would give this guy time to 340 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 3: come out and unlock. 341 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: The gate to let us in. 342 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and just as I had transmitted that, he comes 343 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 3: up on the ear and said, don't come in, don't 344 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 3: come in, we're getting hit up. So we at that 345 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 3: stage we were restigate, and about maybe two kilometers away 346 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: there was a huge IDF position and they were just 347 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: banging with pine fives and gpmgs, not directly at us, 348 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 3: but kind of in the general area. 349 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, explain those weapons systems for people who aren't familiar, 350 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: Like what's a GPMG if as somebody is. 351 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 3: Not, okay, sorry, So you've everyone's familied with, well, say 352 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 3: in AK forty seven or and M sixteen, which would 353 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 3: be known as small arms. In other words, that caliber 354 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: is five point five six or seven point six two. 355 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 3: Then you have medium machine guns, which are generally belt 356 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 3: fed and there are seven point six two and then 357 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 3: you have heavy machine guns again belt fed and they're 358 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 3: twelve point seven or fifty caliber. So we were getting 359 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 3: a fair bit. But it took us maybe an hour 360 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 3: of listening to various news channels both in Lebanon and 361 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 3: in Israel to realize that Hesbela had carried out a 362 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 3: cross border attack, hit up an idea of convoy, kidnapped 363 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 3: two who were seriously injured and subsequently died and killed 364 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 3: initially four and then against their own orders, and Israeli 365 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 3: Mcalva went into Lebanon to have a kind of commanding 366 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 3: view over where they thought that Hesbal, we're bringing these guys. 367 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 3: Hesbala knew that that's what they do, and big anti 368 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 3: tank mine and killed four guys inside the Murcava. So 369 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 3: Israel had lost eight and two kidnapped in the space 370 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 3: of maybe maybe an hour. 371 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 2: So the reaction was was was fast and furious, and. 372 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it took us nearly six days to get our 373 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 3: liais and assistant back back to her village. It took 374 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 3: the un nearly two and a half weeks too, have 375 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 3: actually with the families, because at that stage once it 376 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: was a family mission. And where I was, I could 377 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 3: see the jets dropping bombs into Tier, and my wife 378 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 3: could look up on the skyline, knowing where I was, 379 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 3: and see the same thing happening. I was sort of 380 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 3: used to being under fire, but it's a different thing 381 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: to see your family under fire as well. And eventually 382 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 3: when the charter the sort of a cruise bliner from 383 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 3: Cyprus to come over and stand offshore and sending its 384 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,719 Speaker 3: lifeboats to bring the families out. So when this has 385 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 3: been planned and so had tried to organize that an 386 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 3: armored convoy would bring those onmos that were deployed on 387 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 3: the four posts down to Tier to say goodbye. But 388 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 3: where I was, we were getting hamored with artillery fire and 389 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 3: tank fire. So I was the only one with family 390 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 3: that couldn't get out. So when my wife and two 391 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 3: kids that were five and seven at that stage were 392 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 3: getting into the lifeboat to bring them out to the ship, 393 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 3: I rang her and I said, look, I'll say you 394 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 3: want to see you, which is not. 395 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: A great way to end the family mission. Let me Retalia. 396 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 3: And then in the space of the next three days, 397 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 3: we had a strength of fifty two officers and in 398 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: about three days we lost over ten percent. We had 399 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 3: one Italian captain shot in the back. He's now in 400 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 3: a wheel chair. We had another Australian captain seriously injured 401 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 3: when the convose she was in was I suppose target 402 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 3: It is probably the way to explain it. But she 403 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 3: she was thrown up against the inside of the armored 404 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 3: car and essentially her back was broken. She was evacuated 405 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 3: with my wife and kids. And then I think it 406 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 3: was the day later or two days later, the Israeli 407 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 3: dropped the Jadam, which is a bunker busted missile into 408 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 3: the post just up for me, killing four very good 409 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 3: friends of mine. So yeah, two thousand and six was 410 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 3: a bit rough. 411 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're comfortable, could we talk about that last 412 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 2: one a little bit, because I think it's one of 413 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: the ones that, like, there's no mistaking that un position, right, 414 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: it's you don't and you don't accidentally disco dropping jadeams 415 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,479 Speaker 2: left right in center all over the place. Like. 416 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 3: The first thing I should say is that twenty one 417 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 3: years previously, that observation post was completely destroyed, but there 418 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 3: was no one in it at the time, so when 419 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: it was rebuilt, it had the best bunker in Lebanon 420 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 3: so that they dug down first and had like a 421 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 3: lot of the the bunkers currently in Lebanar are overgrown 422 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 3: to bunkers, but this this was dug down into the 423 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 3: into the rock essentially and it had its roof was 424 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: about a measure and a half of reinforced steel and concrete. Yeah, 425 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 3: with the two story concrete building on top of it. Now, 426 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 3: so without doubt it was the best bunker in Lebanon. 427 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 428 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 3: So that on this this happened on the twenty fifth 429 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: of July, and on that particular day we'd already lost 430 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: the patrol base in Maruna Ras when when Roberto was 431 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 3: shot and they had to I have to say in fairness, 432 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 3: but on the are liais on branch that kind of 433 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 3: liaises between IDF and UNIFIL okay, and UNIFIL couldn't launch 434 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 3: one of the helicopters to do a medevac. So the 435 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 3: decision was made that the guys would get into an 436 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 3: armored land cruiser and follow Israeli tank tracks back into Israel. 437 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,959 Speaker 2: Where they couldn't decafflict the air space to launch it 438 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 2: or what was stopping them launching their helicopter to evacuate There. 439 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 3: Was too much kinectic activity at that we wouldn't have 440 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 3: been able to land it like it was. 441 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: It was a battle long ago, okay, Yeah. 442 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 3: So they essentially followed Israeli tank tracks that had come 443 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 3: into Leblon. They followed those tank tracks back into Israel 444 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 3: where they were met by an Israeli patrol and Roberto 445 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 3: was flown through Rambam Hospital. But yeah, gone back to 446 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 3: going back tom on the twenty fifth of July, as 447 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 3: we were all taking a fair bit of incoming where 448 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: I was. It wasn't targeting. It was more sort of 449 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 3: harassment fire. 450 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, like that. The house next door. 451 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 3: Took three direct tank rounds and it was five meters 452 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 3: away Jesus from our post, and our post was tiny. Yeah, 453 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 3: but in the guys in Kam were taken a coup 454 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 3: bit of artillery, but there was a lot of air 455 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 3: strikes coming in close. And again for your listeners, the 456 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 3: UN has a designation what it calls a firing close. 457 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 3: So we'll say a firing close from a sixteen is 458 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 3: I know, something like fifty meters or something like that. 459 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 3: Firing close from an artillery shell is five hundred meters, 460 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 3: and a firing close from an aerial bomb is a kilometer, 461 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 3: So if glands within a kilometer, it's officially designated as 462 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 3: a firing close and it's orders and you know, both 463 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 3: sides get you know, it's it's an official account of 464 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 3: of what's happening. So the guys who are getting the 465 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 3: you know, a good few firings close from area bombs 466 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 3: and there was three distinct weights of attack in the 467 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 3: general area. So naturally force commander uniful, chief of staff on. 468 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 3: So you and a quarters in New York were screaming 469 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 3: at the Israelis, you know, stop targeting disposition. Yeah, what 470 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 3: was there hes bull in the area? Of course there 471 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 3: was kemp Is a has been a stronghold. But eventually 472 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 3: that that evening the decision was made that the patrol 473 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 3: bus is going to be evacuated. But because of the 474 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 3: level of kinetic activity that evening, it was going to 475 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 3: be done at. 476 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: First light the next morning. 477 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 3: And since the war started, we had all been on 478 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 3: the twenty four to seven twenty minute radish, so every 479 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: twenty minutes you had to respond to a radio check. 480 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 3: So the last transmission from the post was from Canadian 481 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 3: friend of mine x special for horse is really really 482 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 3: cool and I could hear it in his voice. He 483 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 3: was requested a luck in time for a firing close. 484 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,719 Speaker 3: It's danger close, it's danger close, get them to stop. 485 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 3: And that was the last transmission. So when they missed 486 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 3: the next radio check, we presumed another shell had come 487 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 3: in and blown all the aerials of the. 488 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 2: Of the building. 489 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, so myself and an assie friend of mine requested 490 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 3: permission to take our armored land cruiser and try and 491 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 3: drive up and see what was happening. 492 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: That was refused by UNIFILM. 493 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 3: So they sent a patrol from the Indian battalion, which 494 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 3: was kind of in fairness that it was nearer. So 495 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 3: we switched on to their radio frequency to hear what 496 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 3: they were saying. And so they approached the base. They 497 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 3: had obviously had to break down the gate and said 498 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 3: the base had taken a direct hit by an aerial bomb. 499 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 3: And at that stage we were still thinking maybe they're 500 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 3: trapped under the rubble or something like that. And then 501 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 3: the one of the transmitters we have found the body 502 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 3: of a Chinese officer, so we knew the four guys 503 00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 3: were were were killed. And the Indians found three bodies 504 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 3: that night and brought them to the Marchary in marja Un, 505 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 3: which is. 506 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: A large Christian town. 507 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 3: So the next morning there was I think five of 508 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 3: us tasked to open identify the bodies. 509 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. 510 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 3: So the first guy was Chinese, was over pressure killed him, 511 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 3: so that that was an easy one to identify. The 512 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 3: next guy had no arms, no legs, and we head 513 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 3: Jesus and where his head should have been was the 514 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 3: chain of a dog type and I went down into 515 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 3: his his body Paris, yeah, and the other guy yeah. 516 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 3: So yeah, it was a difficult different procedure, and then 517 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 3: we had to try and arrange to get the bodies 518 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 3: transferred into Israel to where you and colleagues from Jerusalem 519 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 3: so they could go to Rambam Hospital and have have 520 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 3: you know, a proper identification and all that sort of stuff. 521 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, eventually be returned to their families, I suppose. 522 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 3: And that was a difficult procedure because where the IDEF 523 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 3: said they could meet us, there was a minefield in 524 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 3: front of us, and where we said we could meet them, 525 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 3: they thought it was too exposed. So eventually we went 526 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 3: into an old, small, tiny Indian platoon position and about 527 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 3: one hundred meters away there was a gate that the 528 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 3: Israelitis used to use to come in and out when 529 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 3: the security's own was there. But the area between the 530 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 3: UN position and the gate hadn't been mind swept in 531 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 3: six years. But we had no choice. We couldn't bring 532 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 3: the guys back to the marcher because it had resorted 533 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 3: to using refrigerated trucks to store. 534 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 2: Bodies because the marcher was full. Yeah, so there. 535 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: Was an IDEF company there under a I think it 536 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 3: was a full brigadier, and there's a war going on naturally, Yeah, 537 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 3: all the time, gunships and katouoscha's passing each other over 538 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 3: our heads. So when we had the three lads transfer 539 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 3: over to our colleagues from Jerusalem, I stood in front 540 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 3: of the IDF brigadier and I lined up all the 541 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 3: uent troops and it says, we're not and have a 542 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 3: minute silence and memory of our friends who were murdered 543 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 3: on the cause of peace, and no having a minute 544 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 3: silence them in the middle of a battle is not 545 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 3: a no experience. In fairness to this guy, he stood 546 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 3: to attention, and because I lived in Tiberias, I had 547 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 3: a small bit of Hebrew, and I went over afterwards 548 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 3: and thanked them for his respect. And we didn't find 549 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 3: the fourth body on the laughter sease fire Jesus. 550 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's rough. Sorry, that's terrible to think about. 551 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 3: So the obvious question is, I know, what the one 552 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 3: you want to add? Why I should have said that 553 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 3: at the start? Anything I say here, it's it's my 554 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 3: personal opinion. So it can't be construed as being the 555 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 3: views of the Irish Defense Forces, yes, of course, are 556 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 3: certainly not the views of the Niger nations. Are my 557 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 3: personal views. So you know, people should just take it 558 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 3: that it's it's Kevin McDonald describing what happened to him 559 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 3: and what his personal views on it are. So why 560 00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 3: did they do it? 561 00:29:59,120 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: Well? 562 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 3: I think there's a couple of things. Hubris is one. 563 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 3: I think at that stage they were like a schoolyard 564 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 3: bully who got better and wanted to lash out of 565 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 3: anything and everything. A second, probably more tactical reason is 566 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 3: that the village of kim Is on a ridge, would say, 567 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 3: at the end of the Redge Ridge, closest to Israel, 568 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 3: because it's only about four miles away, is where this 569 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 3: op was. And that's the reason that was there. And 570 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 3: between Kam and we say, the frontier with Israel is 571 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 3: the Hula Valley, which is the biggest maneuver space. If 572 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 3: you want to maneuver armor and stuff into Lebanon with 573 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 3: plenty of space, that's where you do it. In fact, 574 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 3: beside it is an old Vichy French airfield from the 575 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 3: Second World War, so it's low space and I think 576 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 3: they didn't want eyes on the ground seeing what they 577 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 3: were doing. And like one of the things. 578 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: For mility observers is you observe in your report. That's 579 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 2: your task. 580 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: So was there Hesbola in the area around the around 581 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 3: the op, Yes, there was, But as you probably know, 582 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 3: if you want to attack true in the open, you 583 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 3: use airburst artillery shells, which the Israeli is dated in 584 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six when they fired fifteen of them into 585 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 3: a UN battalion head quarters, killing one hundred and six 586 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 3: eleven these men, women and children. See Conceultu shelter in 587 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 3: the UN headquarters. Yeah, what you don't fire a bunk 588 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 3: or bust and missile into a UN post to attack Hesbulla. 589 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: The's subtle difference. Yeah, there's a huge difference. Yeah. I 590 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 2: suppose what people will ask is like it's I think 591 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: it's important to explain this from the point of view 592 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 2: of someone on the ground, it is obviously un troops 593 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: are not there to fight, they're there to keep peace. 594 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: But they are an armed presence, and so they'll wonder 595 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 2: how or why the un can or can't defend itself 596 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 2: the uniform troops specifically in these positions. So, like, can 597 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: you explain how your rules of engagement and how that 598 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: works for from the sort of on the ground perspective. 599 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, the rules of engagement we said for a 600 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 3: peacekeeper mission, like we pack on so to onside because 601 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 3: they're unarmed, but for. 602 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 2: A peacekeeping mission. 603 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 3: So peacekeeping is generally based on three principles consent, impartiality, 604 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 3: and the use of force in self defense of the mandate. 605 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 3: So naturally, like the guys there at the moment aren't 606 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: going to try and take on through or former KAFA tanks. 607 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 3: First of all, they don't have the capability. 608 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 2: To to it. Yeah, that's an interesting Do they not 609 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: have the guinances? That's fine? Do they have for instance, 610 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 2: javelin and things like that? Do they have those weapons 611 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 2: systems available? 612 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 3: I'm not sure what they have currently. Certainly we didn't 613 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 3: have okay, and it wasn't ever going to be an 614 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 3: issue because that's kind of not our job. 615 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 2: Like that. 616 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 3: The sole responsibility to protect the people of Leblon is 617 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 3: the Lebanese government. Uniful is there to assist. It's not 618 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 3: there to say, okay, you step back, we stemmed up 619 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 3: and protect you. That's not what Uniful or any peacekeeping mission. 620 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 3: The only peacekeeping mission that eventually had enough offensive capability 621 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 3: built into its mandate was the mission that's now closing 622 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 3: down in the DRC, the Democratic Republic of the Congo 623 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 3: and it's MENUSCO, and they specifically changed the mandate to 624 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 3: include an offensive capability to go after them twenty three 625 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 3: rebels in the Kivus in sort of the northeast and 626 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,959 Speaker 3: when they did it, like you know, attack helicopter special 627 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 3: forces a lot. Yeah, it was quite effective. But which 628 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 3: kind of brings me to another point because I just 629 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 3: last year I completed a Masters in Peace and Conflict 630 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 3: Studies and mandates was the evolution of mandates is what 631 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 3: I sort of looked at, and having wrote bus mandates 632 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 3: is all well and good, but the TCCs, the true 633 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 3: contriping countries have to have the ability, the capability of 634 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 3: the training and the will to carry out the robust 635 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 3: nature of the mandate. So you know, we were saying 636 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 3: in Ireland paper never refuses, inc. You can put whatever 637 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 3: you want into a mandate, but you have to be 638 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 3: able to effectively implement the mandate. Yeah, and I think 639 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 3: and that's that's the reason that that maybe people are 640 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 3: kind of broad in how mandates are written, but that's 641 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 3: that's that's for someone we're further up to food chain 642 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 3: the moon. 643 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So for those like the people on the ground 644 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: then and now that's not a great deal. They can do, right, 645 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 2: They can attempt to ask the idea have to stop, 646 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 2: which they did, which has historically not work. And they 647 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 2: can take shelter in their bunkers, which they did, which 648 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 2: it's only helpful that they're not going to use bunker 649 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 2: busting missiles to to des try that bunker. So, like 650 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 2: it must be terrible. Like it's one thing to be 651 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 2: engaged in combat with someone, especially if you're a soldier, 652 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 2: bro it's another thing. And I found myself in this 653 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 2: situation last year to be effectively like I'm able to respond. 654 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 2: I'm thinking here of the Turkish drone bombing and fighter 655 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 2: jets and as in Syria where I was, but it's 656 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 2: a horrible thing to be in that situation, and is 657 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: it for those peacekeepers? It must be a really difficult 658 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 2: place to be. 659 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 3: Well, it is, yeah, and of course you know that 660 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 3: they're all conscious of the fact that their families back 661 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 3: in Ireland are fully. 662 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 2: Aware of what's going on. 663 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 3: And yeah, shortly after the invasion, the IDEF decided that 664 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 3: they're told usually for the want of them out essentially, 665 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 3: and not just the Irish, but but what other nationalities 666 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 3: that were not going, you know, So the idea if 667 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 3: everywhere they go in Lebanon, the first vehicle is a 668 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 3: dena in Bolthozer because that is more robust than a 669 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 3: marcava and it can also very quickly throw up earth 670 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 3: and ramparts to sort of you know, protect from direct fire. 671 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, the idea of troops. 672 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 3: So they decided that they would literally conjoin an IDEAF 673 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 3: position to the Irish position, hoping that they could intimidate 674 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 3: the Irish into leaving. And the position's name was six 675 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 3: ash five two, very close to the frontier. Ironically, when 676 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 3: the Israelis withdrew in two thousand, they recognized that this 677 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 3: particular area was what we in the minute would call 678 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 3: key terrain because that area overlooked a vulnerable part of 679 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 3: northern Israel, villages like Avavem and a few others. So 680 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,439 Speaker 3: the idea to requested UNIFIL to put a position there 681 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 3: which would say stop has bulletin put in the position there, 682 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 3: and then suddenly they're up close and personal, trying to 683 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 3: intimidate the Irish and other nationalities as well. Yeah, so 684 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 3: it's one of the things, and I think one of 685 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,919 Speaker 3: the reasons that they didn't want unifilled, and there's about 686 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 3: twenty small of these small positions, mainly close to the frontier. 687 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 3: I think one of the reasons that they and again 688 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 3: this is a personal point of view, I think one 689 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 3: of the reasons that they didn't want UNIFIL in any 690 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 3: of these positions was eighty turn it into a free 691 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 3: fire zone would be. One of the things that UNIFORD 692 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 3: is supposed to do is to monitor and report, monitor 693 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 3: and observe, and of course if you're not there, you 694 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 3: can't do it. That's actually one of the things that 695 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 3: the Uniform, even though they're hunkred in their bases, would 696 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 3: with very little mobility, they can still monitor and observe 697 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 3: what's happening in the general area. 698 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 699 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 3: Now, I would say in the case of Disposition six 700 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 3: A five to two, if the ideas ultimately gain our 701 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 3: goal was to take a major has been a stronghold 702 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 3: which is called Binchabael, that's a good further north than disposition, 703 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 3: so that the focus of attention would move on from 704 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 3: with the our guys and go a wee bit further north. 705 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's sort of where they find themselves now, right, 706 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 2: is these can you explain like you've got these positions 707 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 2: along the frontier and then you've got the headquarters that 708 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 2: you just mentioned two days ago have been infringed by 709 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 2: a bulldizer attacked, depends how you want to say it. 710 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 3: Well, it makes a change from having a tankerun fired 711 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 3: into an op which they didn't yeah a few days previously. 712 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they've done consistently right for for a month 713 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 2: or so. Now is firing directly into these observing positions? 714 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 2: Are these positions that are now? Are they left isolated 715 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 2: as the idef wull advance passed and around them and 716 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 2: in addition to biring directly at. 717 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 3: Them, there's somewhat isolated. Now all these positions would be 718 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 3: well stocked with water and emergency rations and stuff like that. 719 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 3: And as I mentioned before, UNIFIL do have a liaison 720 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 3: branch which I'm sure are talking to the idea IF 721 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 3: on an early basis, and they will coordinate the movements 722 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,399 Speaker 3: of UNIFIL with say, supply their positions or I think 723 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,439 Speaker 3: last week they had a convoy went into the city 724 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 3: of Tier, which is probably twelve k from the headquarters, 725 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 3: to distribute aid, especially medical aid, because tiers getting fairly weacked, 726 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 3: like all of the self, I suppose, so there is 727 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 3: engagement to make sure that these posts are like completely isolated, 728 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 3: that that there is a means of doing resupply. 729 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's real, stopped one of those at some point, 730 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,959 Speaker 2: didn't it, Like was it a resupply and movement. 731 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 3: The stop things that are on a regular basis. As 732 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 3: I said, there is interaction, like nothing happens in the vacuum, 733 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 3: like we said, Yeah, the Irish Italian headquarters would not 734 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,919 Speaker 3: send a convoy to Sixtas five two without it being 735 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 3: communicated to the Israelis and saying we're going to go 736 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 3: on three vehicles that or seven hundred hours blah blah blah, 737 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 3: and and and get the confirmation back that yeah, that's okay, 738 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 3: because you know, they mentioned the foul the war, and 739 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 3: that that's all from the fairly real as you can 740 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 3: imagine yourself. 741 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 2: It's a fairly real. 742 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 3: Thing that happens, you know sometimes you know, yeah, instructions 743 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 3: don't get passed down, or sometimes instructions are ignored for 744 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 3: whatever reason. So it's it's a bit of a delicate, 745 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 3: delicate balancing act. But from what I understand, it's working well. 746 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 2: That's good. Yeah, yeah, And I think it's working well 747 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 2: in terms of like what's happening in Lebanon is bad 748 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 2: and it'd be better if it wasn't. But it's not 749 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 2: at the same tier as it has been in Gaza. 750 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 3: No, you're looking at maybe three and a half thousand 751 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 3: compared to forty three and a half thousand kild. 752 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so many of those being civilians, right, people 753 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 2: who absolutely no business targeting, and like that genocidal violence 754 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 2: that we've seen in Gaza hasn't come to Lebanon, and 755 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,399 Speaker 2: in part I think we can attribute that to their 756 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 2: being observed. Is there is that fair to say? I 757 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 2: think it's a fair point. 758 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 3: Of course, there's no real the UN footprint in Gaza. 759 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 3: My understanding is it's extremely extremely light. Yeah, and as 760 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 3: you know that would say banished genre, Yeah, whereas I 761 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 3: mean unifor the ten thousand troops in southern Lebanon. So 762 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 3: there's very much more, maybe a more consciousness, but they're 763 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 3: still flattin in the place. But it's in terms of 764 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 3: civilian casualties. As we said, it's not going on as 765 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 3: long as Gaza either, but on the we'ld say the 766 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 3: combat front, but not exactly having things the wrong way either. 767 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 3: They've been trying to take the village of Kian for 768 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 3: the last I think two weeks, and my understanding is 769 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 3: that haven't have destroyed it, right, but they haven't taken it. 770 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 3: And it was like in two thousand and six they 771 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 3: claimed that the town of ben Chebail was the Hesibla 772 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 3: capital of the South, which and suppose't the way it was, 773 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 3: but the turn of then draws me. 774 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 2: But they never controlled it. They were still getting. 775 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,399 Speaker 3: Attacked, you know, days after they had seized it. 776 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: Right. 777 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, they've never really established like control or like monopoly 778 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 2: and on violence in the area. And yeah, they've not 779 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 2: done that this time. And I think I suppose the 780 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 2: last thing I wanted to ask about is like we've 781 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 2: just talked about like why this mission is important, and 782 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,879 Speaker 2: we've spoken about for like you had your family there 783 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 2: when they were being bombed, and like this investment in 784 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 2: being there in Lebanon, being alongside the Lebanese people in 785 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 2: your case with your own family, like it's it's one 786 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 2: that island has had for a long time. Ireland has historically, 787 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: amongst European nations, been much better on the rights of 788 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 2: Palestine and Palestinian people than most European nations. How is 789 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 2: this peacekeeping mission perceived in Ireland? Like, are people proud 790 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 2: that they're there? 791 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 4: Oh? 792 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, hugely proud. 793 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 3: And and you know, the Irish have always been extremely 794 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 3: proud of what our defense forces have achieved, despite us 795 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 3: being a very small defense forces. Like I think at 796 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 3: the moment between the Navy, the Army and the Air 797 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,879 Speaker 3: Corps were probably looking at in total. 798 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 2: Total, well, yeah, very small. 799 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 3: And then we're overseas in a lot of places as well, 800 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 3: so like the doc Dad from the nine, you're probably 801 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 3: down to eight. Yeah, but we do tend to punch 802 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 3: up over with internationally. We obviously had no colonial baggage, 803 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 3: which affects some other countries. Yes, and I think generally speaking, 804 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 3: we're seeing as a I'm not sure if annest Brooker 805 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 3: is the right word, but certainly not as threatening and not. 806 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 2: Coming with an agenda, right yeah. 807 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 3: Whereas other other countries might have a certain agenda for 808 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 3: whatever political reasons at home. And it's certainly in Ireland 809 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:30,760 Speaker 3: s caes As I said, we were there from seventy 810 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 3: eight two thousand and now from two thousand and six 811 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,319 Speaker 3: to present day, and a lot of it has been 812 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 3: in the same general area, so people would know Irish soldiers. 813 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 2: Some Lebanese talk with an Irish accent. I've heard that. Yeah, yeah, 814 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 2: it's mad. Yeah, yeah, it's true. 815 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 3: And depending on what part of Ireland the troops were from, 816 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,359 Speaker 3: you could even go further down, like some of them 817 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 3: talk with a very broad Dublin accent. Some of them 818 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 3: would talk with a very broad Cork accent. Because of 819 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 3: that interaction. And I know one of the first big 820 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 3: projects the Irish did, certainly from the early yearies, was 821 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 3: to build an orphanage in a provincial capital coll tip name, 822 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 3: and they've been doing that even when we know troops there, 823 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 3: guys were still sending money and toys and everything. That's 824 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 3: been demolished last week. 825 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 2: For Jesus An Orphanage. It's like storybook evil stuff, isn't it. 826 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 3: Like, Yeah, well, you know, it's just there's a lot 827 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 3: of evil stuff going on in the Middle East at 828 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 3: the moment, unfortunately. 829 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I've personally seen hospitals bombed 830 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff myself, and it sometimes 831 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 2: doesn't even make the news. I mean that Orphanage evidently 832 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 2: didn't really make my news. Diet Kevin, thank you very 833 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 2: much for sharing some of your experiences over there, and 834 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,399 Speaker 2: I'd love to have you on again to talk about 835 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,440 Speaker 2: the things you've the work you've done in Africa and 836 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 2: the line after leven. And you've written a book right 837 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 2: about your experiences peacekeeping and other things. Where could people 838 00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 2: find that? 839 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,240 Speaker 3: Okay, So this initially starting off as a lockdown project 840 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,279 Speaker 3: during the COVID lockdown in the Central African Republican And 841 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 3: initially it was just from my wife and family. But 842 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 3: as it starts writing, you kind of started remembering and 843 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,800 Speaker 3: it's not just your typical military guy tell us about 844 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 3: how Bravey was. I have a separate career in mountaineering 845 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,799 Speaker 3: and a separate career in archaeology. As well, So it's 846 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 3: a kind of a much more different missimash of of 847 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 3: stuff going on. So that the book is called a 848 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,160 Speaker 3: Lifeless Ordinary and it can be purchased online at male 849 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:31,919 Speaker 3: Books Dot. 850 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 2: I m a y orb Orchas. Yeah, I like that balance. 851 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 2: I've always thought that, like, I'll go somewhere and I'll 852 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 2: write about the worst things I saw there and the 853 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,320 Speaker 2: worst days I had there, and that'll be my story. 854 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 2: But I've always wanted to write about the mountains of 855 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 2: Kurdistan are beautiful and I really loved being there, and 856 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 2: there are other places that people think of them as wars, 857 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 2: not countries, and I think it would be I'd love 858 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 2: to write about mountaineering back acting in these places where 859 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:03,959 Speaker 2: often it's really sad that you don't get to share 860 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 2: that part. Read. I'll write about this in the book. 861 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 3: I mean, like, I've lived a few times in Lebanon, 862 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 3: and I've lived and worked in Jerusalem a few times, 863 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,720 Speaker 3: and it's a fascinating region. Oh yeah, and the people 864 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,440 Speaker 3: on in both countries some I have some really good 865 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 3: friends in Israel and have some really good friends in Lebanon, 866 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 3: and I've been treated extremely well by people in both countries. 867 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 3: Certainly if you've an interest in archaeology to be else 868 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 3: could put ship not want to be? You know, like 869 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,320 Speaker 3: the Phoenicians in Tier, and no matter where you go 870 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,400 Speaker 3: in Tier, you can pick up Roman partially or you 871 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 3: can see all these amazing sights, whether it's from the Phoenicians, 872 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 3: from the Romans, from the Crusaders, it's just it's all 873 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:48,080 Speaker 3: there in front of you. 874 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, cratile of civilization there. Well, thank you so 875 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,320 Speaker 2: much for showing your experiences, Kevin, thanks so much. Okays, 876 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 2: about twenty years ago, maybe thirty, a circus fitted to Majoro, 877 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,840 Speaker 2: the largest island on the Marjorro Atoll, in the capital 878 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 2: city of the Marshall Islands. They came to Majoro, as 879 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 2: almost everything that isn't breadfruit, pandanas or fish does on 880 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 2: a boat. After performing, they couldn't find a boat to 881 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,040 Speaker 2: take them to the next destination, and so the resident 882 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,760 Speaker 2: of this tiny island, which at times is no wider 883 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,240 Speaker 2: than the single road which travels its whole length, decided 884 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 2: that they'd have to share the food that they themselves 885 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:02,719 Speaker 2: had imported a great cost, and they set about gathering apples, bananas, 886 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 2: and anything else that they thought an elephant might like 887 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,320 Speaker 2: to eat while it waited for a way off an island. 888 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 2: The belly has enough for im for his own people, 889 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,240 Speaker 2: let alone the largest land animal on earth. The people 890 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,399 Speaker 2: of the Marshall Islands, for whom hospitality is as natural 891 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 2: as the tides are to see, greet each other the 892 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,279 Speaker 2: same way they do strangers, by saying your quay. The 893 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 2: word has several meanings, but I'll let David Kabua explain them. 894 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,440 Speaker 2: He's the President of the Republic of the Marshal Islands, 895 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:31,840 Speaker 2: so he seems like he'd be a good source. 896 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 5: I would say the word yuppet, yuppe, our greating word yaguey. 897 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 5: There's a lot of several meanings, and you can't say 898 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 5: when you meet someone first time, you say yagoehe when 899 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 5: you greet someone, and when you also say goodbye, instead 900 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:57,239 Speaker 5: of saying goodbye, you also say yape, so you can instead. Also, 901 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:04,319 Speaker 5: like the weekend, there was a tournament, fishing tournament, and 902 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,239 Speaker 5: if you were fishing and you got it. You have 903 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:12,640 Speaker 5: a big fish on the land and you really you're 904 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,839 Speaker 5: about to land the fish, but the land snap. So 905 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:16,439 Speaker 5: what do you say? 906 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 6: Say? 907 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,520 Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, way and hello to the fish. 908 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,280 Speaker 1: But you just say yeah, because you lost the big catch. 909 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 5: So it can't be used that way, like when you 910 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,920 Speaker 5: lose someone or someone passed away. 911 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 7: You've missed that prison. 912 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 5: Yup way, so and so he was here but no 913 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 5: one could hear, so we can said yeh way. 914 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,160 Speaker 1: So it has several meanings. 915 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 5: But the deeper meaning of yuppay is you are beautiful 916 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 5: like the rainbow. Yeah means rainbow and ways, so we 917 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,239 Speaker 5: combine the two words, you are a rainbow and you 918 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 5: are beautiful as a rainbow. 919 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 2: On the map, the Marshall Islands looked like the little 920 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,840 Speaker 2: dots that appear in my photos of the beach at Margie. 921 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,399 Speaker 2: But unlike there's little of dust that managed to slink 922 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,759 Speaker 2: their way onto my camera center, Marshall Islands belong here. 923 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,200 Speaker 2: Here is a pretty vague turn. The twenty nine coral 924 00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 2: atolls and five islands that allow fifty four thousand Marshalies 925 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,360 Speaker 2: to live on one hundred and eighty two square kilometers 926 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,400 Speaker 2: of land span an oceanic territory of two hundred thousand kilometers. 927 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 2: It's like you took a small American town and scattered 928 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 2: it across an area more than a half times the 929 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 2: size of Alaska. Even though the Rami is ninety eight 930 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 2: percent water, every inch of land is precious to the Marshalies, 931 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,560 Speaker 2: whose matrilonial society ensures that land passes from mother to 932 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,839 Speaker 2: daughter and ties families to the remote islands that make 933 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,319 Speaker 2: up the low lying atolls of the Republic. It was 934 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 2: on one of the bigger chunks of land that I 935 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 2: recorded the music you heard a minute ago. Marjorro is 936 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,040 Speaker 2: an atoll that's a coral ring that encircles the lagoon 937 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,360 Speaker 2: and its biggest islands, about thirty miles long but often 938 00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,759 Speaker 2: less than one hundred yards wide. There's one road that 939 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,200 Speaker 2: runs the length of it and sometimes also spans the 940 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 2: width of it. It's also home to about half the 941 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,279 Speaker 2: Romised population. The highest point on the atoll lies just 942 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,719 Speaker 2: three meters above sea level. If you want to get 943 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 2: higher than that, then you're only options are houses or 944 00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,719 Speaker 2: palm trees. From the top of the fifth floor of 945 00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 2: the NAPA Auto Parts Store, which also houses the UNDP 946 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 2: and the Marshal Arwns Olympic Committee, you can see the 947 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 2: whole island for Marshallese people, these tiny pieces of paradise 948 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,040 Speaker 2: that barely poke their heads out. From the top of 949 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,360 Speaker 2: the ocean are everything. Their land and their ties to 950 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,160 Speaker 2: it defined them. Without their place, they can't be themselves. 951 00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,960 Speaker 2: Even though many thousands of marshal Leise live in the 952 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,520 Speaker 2: diasper of the United States, they're still important handicrafts made 953 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,920 Speaker 2: from little shells and the outer islands and coconut husks. 954 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 2: Many of them come back to the islands to retire, 955 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 2: but slowly the ocean is taking those islands back. Rising 956 00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,480 Speaker 2: sea level and more extreme tidal surges have placed this 957 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 2: tiny Pacific nation on the front lines of climate change. 958 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,839 Speaker 2: There isn't an exact estimate as to how long the 959 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,719 Speaker 2: Marshall Islands have or what they can do to halt 960 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,960 Speaker 2: the creeping advance of the ocean. They've always existed on 961 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,759 Speaker 2: just a few square kilometers of land among millions of 962 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,720 Speaker 2: square kilometers of ocean, and they depend on that ocean 963 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,760 Speaker 2: for everything. But now it's threatening to take everything away 964 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,880 Speaker 2: from them one day. They fear their islands will become uninhabitable. 965 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,080 Speaker 2: A salt water invads of water table, and their trees die, 966 00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,560 Speaker 2: while storms bring more and more frequent floods that sweep 967 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,959 Speaker 2: away their homes and their possessions. They don't want to leave, 968 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,560 Speaker 2: but they can't stand alone against climate change either. But 969 00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,440 Speaker 2: the marshally Is are resilient people. They've weathered many storms 970 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:49,240 Speaker 2: to get to where they are now. The tiny museum 971 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 2: in Madro hosts artifacts of several crises that would seem apocalyptic, 972 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:58,239 Speaker 2: a nuclear bomb, the Second World War, but in the 973 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,600 Speaker 2: end these did little decressing incredible kindness of the tenacity 974 00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:06,360 Speaker 2: of the Marshalise. The islands that make up the Rami 975 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,440 Speaker 2: have been inhabited by indigenous people for thousands of years. 976 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,279 Speaker 2: They've been variously ruled by the Spanish, German, Japanese and 977 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:20,360 Speaker 2: United States governments before becoming an independent republic. Before they 978 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 2: were named by a British sailor, the islands had their 979 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,560 Speaker 2: own name. I Let Jeff, a Marshal's renaissance man who 980 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 2: was at one s driver, the head of the World 981 00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:33,360 Speaker 2: Health Organization's EMT program on the islands, a registered nurse, 982 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,960 Speaker 2: and the Custodi uns. An incredible collection of marshalse music 983 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,640 Speaker 2: explained what they were called before that, or before he 984 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,600 Speaker 2: used to call la la la larli like. 985 00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:47,239 Speaker 8: L or l. 986 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,920 Speaker 9: N l o lpluck lap lap. 987 00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 2: That's before it turned out turns into Marsham. Does this 988 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:02,320 Speaker 2: work Marshalls. 989 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:07,320 Speaker 9: Capes from this bad oh A found these islands. 990 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:12,480 Speaker 2: Captain Marshall undeniably, the Marshall Islands are not a bad 991 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 2: place to find yourself on a summer afternoon, and in 992 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,000 Speaker 2: the time I spent there, I took several trips to 993 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,880 Speaker 2: the smaller islands around my dro atoll. They look like 994 00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,520 Speaker 2: the Platonic idea of a tropical island, complete with coconut palms, 995 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:30,040 Speaker 2: vibrant coral reefs, white sand, and turquoise water. I love 996 00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,239 Speaker 2: free diving and dropping down onto a wrecked aircraft and 997 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,480 Speaker 2: dozens of brightly colored species of fish in almost infinite 998 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,279 Speaker 2: visibility without even needing to put on a wet to 999 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,359 Speaker 2: or a weight belt. Might be the closest I'll ever 1000 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,440 Speaker 2: get to flying. But I wasn't just here for a 1001 00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,000 Speaker 2: dip in the ocean. I'm actually here to tell you 1002 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,359 Speaker 2: a story of incredible resilience. Much of America, both on 1003 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,520 Speaker 2: the left and on the right, spends much of its 1004 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,360 Speaker 2: time and money preparing for its own imagined version of 1005 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,960 Speaker 2: the crisis. For some, that's the unimaginable destruction of duke 1006 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,040 Speaker 2: a War. For others, it's the encroaching of the ocean 1007 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,040 Speaker 2: on it's a land and the resulting loss of places 1008 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,600 Speaker 2: to live and grow food, and for others, it's a 1009 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,400 Speaker 2: collapse of basic services like power and clean water that 1010 00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:14,000 Speaker 2: we take for granted. These are all storms. So the 1011 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,320 Speaker 2: tiny island nation who hath already weathered, and it hasn't 1012 00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 2: done so in the atomized and individualistic way that so 1013 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:24,920 Speaker 2: many American preppers fantasize about online. It's done so as 1014 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 2: an incredibly strong, optimistic, and welcoming community. There's a lot 1015 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,440 Speaker 2: we can learn from the people of the Marshall Islands 1016 00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,839 Speaker 2: and their story, and so this week I'll be doing 1017 00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:35,880 Speaker 2: my best to share the stories that they shared with me. 1018 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,239 Speaker 2: If you're familiar with the islands, it's likely because of 1019 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,759 Speaker 2: the history of one of the other atolls in the group, 1020 00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,040 Speaker 2: Bikini Atoll. The name is the German bastardization of a 1021 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 2: Marshal lease word pikini pick meaning plain surface, and knee 1022 00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,240 Speaker 2: meaning coconut tree. It's a flat based where coconuts grere, 1023 00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,920 Speaker 2: but you likely don't know the island for its coconuts, 1024 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,520 Speaker 2: and those aren't safe to eat anymore anyway. If you've 1025 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,160 Speaker 2: heard of Bikinia Toll, it's because of what the United 1026 00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,239 Speaker 2: States did there after the Second World War. On the 1027 00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,240 Speaker 2: eighteenth of July and nineteen forty seven, the Marshall Islands 1028 00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,240 Speaker 2: were placed in a Strategic Trust Territory by the United Nations. 1029 00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,880 Speaker 2: This territory was administered by the United States, which are 1030 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,120 Speaker 2: supposed to administer the islands in the best interest of 1031 00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 2: their inhabitants out of international peace and security. But a 1032 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,160 Speaker 2: year before the trust territory was created, the US began 1033 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,960 Speaker 2: nuclear testing and the lagoon at Bikinia Toll, a site 1034 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,040 Speaker 2: that would over the next fifteen years become the most 1035 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,920 Speaker 2: heavily bombed place on Earth, with some islands entirely removed 1036 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,760 Speaker 2: from the map and much of their population left dead, sick, 1037 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 2: without the land that defines them and their ability to 1038 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,280 Speaker 2: thrive on these ti iny islands amidst the endless ocean. 1039 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,720 Speaker 2: As far as possible, I want to let the Marshal 1040 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,520 Speaker 2: Lease survivors of the nuclear tests and their families tell 1041 00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 2: their own stories. They call what happened and don Bikini 1042 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,879 Speaker 2: In and Awatakatoll the nuclear legacy of their country. Talking about 1043 00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,400 Speaker 2: the nuclear legacy is a difficult topic for the Marshallese, 1044 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,000 Speaker 2: especially the time when none of them have been paid 1045 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,120 Speaker 2: the compensation they were allotted, and the US was negotiating 1046 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,360 Speaker 2: a new agreement with the Marshalise government. It was very 1047 00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:19,800 Speaker 2: far from settled and the numbers of the US were 1048 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:23,320 Speaker 2: offering were very far from sufficient. I was very fortunate 1049 00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,400 Speaker 2: to join a few other journalists on the tiny island 1050 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 2: of boken bowten, a short boat right away from Mitro 1051 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,840 Speaker 2: and home to perhaps most beautiful coral reef I've ever seen. 1052 00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,920 Speaker 2: We had lunch, walked around the island and then had 1053 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,400 Speaker 2: a talk on the nuclear legacy from descendants of some 1054 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,400 Speaker 2: of the survivors. I'll let them introduce themselves. 1055 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:47,960 Speaker 10: My name is Zakabekibion. I'm from the Marshall Ellen. I 1056 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,440 Speaker 10: am a student at CMI College of the Marshall Ellen 1057 00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:54,720 Speaker 10: and I am currently the president for the CMI Nuclear Club, 1058 00:57:55,120 --> 00:58:02,320 Speaker 10: which we mostly work under National Nuclear Commission with with 1059 00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,120 Speaker 10: our director Mary Sock and now our Commissioner Arianna. 1060 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:08,280 Speaker 6: Allreat. 1061 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:08,560 Speaker 5: Yeah. 1062 00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:14,000 Speaker 11: Well, once again, my name is Ariana. I work as 1063 00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:18,000 Speaker 11: a Commissioner and Nuclear Justice Envoy for the RMI National 1064 00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:22,280 Speaker 11: Nuclear Commission. Him once again, thank you very much for 1065 00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,080 Speaker 11: having us this afternoon. 1066 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,680 Speaker 12: Yael, Welcome to the Marshall Island. 1067 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:28,600 Speaker 1: My name is Evlin Ralpho. 1068 00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,120 Speaker 11: I'm the director for Education and Public Awareness. 1069 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,280 Speaker 12: Once again, welcome, enjoy the rese of your days here. 1070 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,920 Speaker 12: My name is sincerely in Pernet. I work with the 1071 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:45,040 Speaker 12: National Nuclear Commission as an headman and physical officer. I'm 1072 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,400 Speaker 12: not sure if it's necessary for me to come, but 1073 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:51,520 Speaker 12: since the post that we all go so important, support 1074 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 12: the post go work on the same poet, Welcome to 1075 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:55,520 Speaker 12: the Partial Islands. 1076 00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:01,560 Speaker 11: She's from Mayatta, She's from Yeah. The three of us 1077 00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:06,640 Speaker 11: are all descendants of nuclear survivors. They were exposed to 1078 00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,160 Speaker 11: fall out. Her mother was exposed to fall out. Her mother, 1079 00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,320 Speaker 11: Grace's mother was also exposed to the radioactive fallout, as 1080 00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,880 Speaker 11: well as my great grandfather. I think that's what really 1081 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,320 Speaker 11: drives us to share this with you. 1082 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,120 Speaker 2: Almost everyone in the RMI has a family member directly 1083 00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,640 Speaker 2: impacted by the testing and the decades of mistreatment that 1084 00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:31,640 Speaker 2: came after it. Although we know the name Bikini A Toll, 1085 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:36,520 Speaker 2: the entire Republic was impacted by nuclear fallout, including Mardro itself, 1086 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,600 Speaker 2: thanks to the elevised decision to drop bombs on a 1087 00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,360 Speaker 2: day when the populated atolls were downwind of the test site. 1088 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,280 Speaker 2: In fact, right next to our hotel, showing the same 1089 00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:50,480 Speaker 2: parking lot. There's the US Department of Energy office. Hou's, Jeff, 1090 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:52,720 Speaker 2: what that was doing there? Yeah? I saw there's a 1091 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:56,840 Speaker 2: diary office health office on the street here. 1092 00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,480 Speaker 9: The one in the next to the autel, that's the 1093 01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,800 Speaker 9: office where they do the radiation testing. And there's the 1094 01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:09,040 Speaker 9: one near the AMI. R. Marshall that's the planet for 1095 01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:14,560 Speaker 9: those survivors. Now, the survivors, there's few of them, like 1096 01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:16,800 Speaker 9: maybe less than fifty. Wow. 1097 01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,320 Speaker 2: The RMI is saw fighting in the Second World War. 1098 01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:26,200 Speaker 2: It's memorialized in murals across Marjorro. In nineteen forty three 1099 01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,680 Speaker 2: and early nineteen forty four, the USA bombed and then 1100 01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,280 Speaker 2: fought the Imperial Japanese military who have been occupying the 1101 01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:37,160 Speaker 2: island since nineteen fourteen. US soldiers and Marines, along with 1102 01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:41,800 Speaker 2: marsh Lea's scouts, landed on Marjorro Quadulan in anywhere, took 1103 01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:44,840 Speaker 2: on Higgins boats that were virtually identical to the boat 1104 01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,160 Speaker 2: we took across the lagoon to Bocan Boten. The fighting 1105 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,440 Speaker 2: was fierce and the scale of the destruction was a mets. Overall, 1106 01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,480 Speaker 2: the Americans lost six hundred and eleven men and suffered 1107 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:59,200 Speaker 2: two thy three hundred and forty one wounded, two hundred 1108 01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:03,640 Speaker 2: and sixty one were missing. Meanwhile, the Japanese lost over 1109 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:09,440 Speaker 2: eleven thousand men and had three hundred and fifty eight captured. Today, 1110 01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:12,440 Speaker 2: the Bikinia Toll Lagoon still holds the ghostly remains of 1111 01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 2: the ships and plains that fought that battle, alongside the Nagato, 1112 01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,680 Speaker 2: the flagship of the Imperial Japanese Navy, and the ship 1113 01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:24,240 Speaker 2: from whose bridge Admiral Yamamoto launched the attack on Pearl Harbor. 1114 01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:27,840 Speaker 2: It was a shadow of this war that was evoked 1115 01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty six when one hundred and sixty seven 1116 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,880 Speaker 2: of Bikini A Tolls inhabitants were forcibly relocated by the 1117 01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,680 Speaker 2: United States. They initially accepted this settlement quote for the 1118 01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,640 Speaker 2: good of mankind and to end all wars, in the 1119 01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,640 Speaker 2: words of the US commandant at the time. Assisted by 1120 01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,560 Speaker 2: US Navy seabees, they disassembled their church and moved to 1121 01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:54,800 Speaker 2: different atolls. Nine of the eleven family heads from Bikini 1122 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,320 Speaker 2: elected to be transported one hundred and twenty five miles 1123 01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,400 Speaker 2: to Rohngerikatoll, an island, with about one order of the 1124 01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,400 Speaker 2: land mass of Bikinian. Many believed the island to be haunted. 1125 01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:06,680 Speaker 2: By the time the navy left them with a few 1126 01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,520 Speaker 2: weeks of water and food, they had every reason to 1127 01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:13,560 Speaker 2: be afraid. I let Ariana explain what that removal process 1128 01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:13,880 Speaker 2: was like. 1129 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,800 Speaker 11: They had asked the people if they were willing to 1130 01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,040 Speaker 11: give up their homelands for the good of mankind and 1131 01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:23,960 Speaker 11: to end all wars. And because our people are people 1132 01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:28,800 Speaker 11: of faith in Christianity, they the and they were very afraid. 1133 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:33,120 Speaker 11: They did not want to leave. But because of the 1134 01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:37,880 Speaker 11: amount of power that the that the military showed up 1135 01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,960 Speaker 11: with with their big ships compared to our small canoes, 1136 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,720 Speaker 11: and the amount of troops that were on that island 1137 01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,360 Speaker 11: on that morning, it was very hard for them to, 1138 01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,959 Speaker 11: you know, fight against what was being asked of them. 1139 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:59,240 Speaker 11: And if you have time to look through documentaries of 1140 01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:02,640 Speaker 11: the nuclear like you will see a certain part where 1141 01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:05,880 Speaker 11: the commander a commodore, his name was Ben Wyatt. He 1142 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:08,800 Speaker 11: was sitting down and asking the chief at that time, 1143 01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,000 Speaker 11: can we use this island for the good of mankind? 1144 01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:16,400 Speaker 11: And in response the people all respond in unison elman 1145 01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:21,080 Speaker 11: which means okay. And from their testimonies they had to 1146 01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:25,600 Speaker 11: take that shot over forty times to make sure that 1147 01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:28,000 Speaker 11: you know, they all said mmin at the same time, 1148 01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:31,000 Speaker 11: to get the best shot they could for you know, 1149 01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,040 Speaker 11: maybe for reports to the UN, but it was a 1150 01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:35,760 Speaker 11: very frustrating time for them. 1151 01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:40,960 Speaker 2: Following their removal, the testing began. The idea was to 1152 01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:44,320 Speaker 2: test nuclear bombs on ships, so the US bought ninety 1153 01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:48,640 Speaker 2: five ships fully loaded with weapons and fuel. At this time, 1154 01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,440 Speaker 2: this would have ranked the navy of Bikinia Toll just 1155 01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:53,919 Speaker 2: out there the top five biggest fleets in the world, 1156 01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:59,880 Speaker 2: but those boats didn't stay afloat for long. Now. You 1157 01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,240 Speaker 2: might think that, given the testing was on ships, the 1158 01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:06,240 Speaker 2: atoll's navy would be some kind of mid century Mary Celeste, 1159 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:12,160 Speaker 2: but you'd be wrong. Three hundred and fifty experimental rats, goats, 1160 01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:16,000 Speaker 2: and pigs died in the service as its strange nuclear experiment, 1161 01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,640 Speaker 2: some of them after being subjected to the great indignity 1162 01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:23,600 Speaker 2: of being covered in sunscreen, which bizarrely scientists thought might 1163 01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,640 Speaker 2: be useful in alleviating the impact of radiation. It's rather 1164 01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:30,880 Speaker 2: staggering that this research was being done three years after 1165 01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,240 Speaker 2: the United States dropped nuclear bombs on whole cities full 1166 01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:37,919 Speaker 2: of human beings. But as you've maybe already picked up 1167 01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,600 Speaker 2: in this story. The possibility of unintended but entirely predictable 1168 01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:43,640 Speaker 2: human suffering does not seem to have been top of 1169 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:48,440 Speaker 2: the priority list. The first test of the island somehow misfired. 1170 01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,760 Speaker 2: The gathered press were disappointed, and many of them went home, 1171 01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:57,640 Speaker 2: But the second code, named Baker didn't. Chemist Glen t Seborg, 1172 01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,560 Speaker 2: the longest serving chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, called 1173 01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:05,320 Speaker 2: the Baker test the world's first nuclear disaster. It drove 1174 01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:08,160 Speaker 2: a two thousand foot wide pillar of water into the air, 1175 01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:12,640 Speaker 2: It sunk the USS Arkansas, and released massive amounts of 1176 01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,800 Speaker 2: radiation across the islands of the atoll, which at the 1177 01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:20,200 Speaker 2: time the residents had been expecting to return to. Just 1178 01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:23,360 Speaker 2: five days after the first bomb went off, Louis Road, 1179 01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,000 Speaker 2: a French mechanical engineer who was working as manager of 1180 01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,920 Speaker 2: his mother's lingerie shop in Paris, introduced a new swimsuit 1181 01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:35,400 Speaker 2: designed named the Bikini after the atoll. It was one 1182 01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:40,720 Speaker 2: wright equipped the atom bomb of fashion. The people of 1183 01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:44,080 Speaker 2: the atoll, however, gained little from the outfit or the testing. 1184 01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:47,840 Speaker 2: In January of nineteen forty eight, just two years after 1185 01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:52,120 Speaker 2: their removal, doctor Leonard Mason visited the Bikinians on Rongerick 1186 01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:54,880 Speaker 2: and was appalled to find the people there had almost 1187 01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:59,440 Speaker 2: starved to death. We were dying, but they didn't listen 1188 01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:03,160 Speaker 2: to us, one of them said to him. Mason, an 1189 01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:06,880 Speaker 2: anthropologist at the University of WAYI asked that food and 1190 01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:11,280 Speaker 2: water be bought immediately. The US built houses for Bikiniatol 1191 01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:15,880 Speaker 2: residents on Ujilangatoll, but it decided to use these for 1192 01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,800 Speaker 2: the residents of Aniwata Katol, where it was also about 1193 01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:23,680 Speaker 2: to begin conducting nuclear experiments. Instead. The Bikini Islanders were 1194 01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:27,560 Speaker 2: placed in tents alongside a runway before they eventually chose 1195 01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,920 Speaker 2: Kille Island, a line of less than one square kilometer, 1196 01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:37,800 Speaker 2: as their next home. Also evacuated were Anewatak, Wrongalap, and 1197 01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:41,800 Speaker 2: Warthaw Islanders. They too, thought this was a temporary arrangement 1198 01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:43,560 Speaker 2: and that they could go home in a short period 1199 01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:47,160 Speaker 2: of time. They too, found out later that this was 1200 01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,880 Speaker 2: not the case. Over the course of their exile, they've 1201 01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:54,120 Speaker 2: been moved several more times, staffed half to death, cheated 1202 01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:58,560 Speaker 2: of their compensation, and stripped of their ancestral homeland. For 1203 01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,840 Speaker 2: the next twelve years, the United States would drop increasingly 1204 01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,880 Speaker 2: large bombs, culminating in nineteen fifty four with the Bravo 1205 01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:10,280 Speaker 2: Shot of Operation Castle, also known as Castle Bravo, the 1206 01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:13,800 Speaker 2: biggest nuclear device that we know of the US ever deploying. 1207 01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,840 Speaker 11: Within those twelve years, there were sixty seven known devices 1208 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,360 Speaker 11: that were tested here. There could have been more, but 1209 01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,640 Speaker 11: all we know of is sixty seven. One of them 1210 01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:28,760 Speaker 11: was the Castle Bravo shat that yielded fifteen megatons, which, 1211 01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:34,760 Speaker 11: when scientists calculated the equivalent of the Bravo shat, would 1212 01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,520 Speaker 11: have required testing the Hiroshima bomb one and a half 1213 01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:41,320 Speaker 11: times every single day for twelve years. 1214 01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:45,560 Speaker 2: That fifteen megaton Bravo shot yielded more than two point 1215 01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:49,000 Speaker 2: five times the estimated six megaton explosion. When it was 1216 01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:53,160 Speaker 2: detonated on an artificial island in the Bikinia Toll, the 1217 01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:56,840 Speaker 2: device's mushroom cloud reached a height of forty seven thousand 1218 01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:00,400 Speaker 2: feet which is fourteen hundred meters, and a dam of 1219 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:04,520 Speaker 2: seven miles or eleven kilometers in about one minute. Eventually 1220 01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:07,680 Speaker 2: it reached a height of forty kilometers and a diameter 1221 01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,720 Speaker 2: of one hundred kilometers. This took less than ten minutes, 1222 01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,760 Speaker 2: traveled more than one hundred meters per second and covered 1223 01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,280 Speaker 2: seven thousand kilometers of the Pacific Ocean and everything in 1224 01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:22,799 Speaker 2: it with nuclear fallout. On the eve of the Bravo shot, 1225 01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:27,160 Speaker 2: weather reports indicated that the quote conditions were getting less favorable, 1226 01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:30,200 Speaker 2: but nonetheless the decision to go ahead with the first 1227 01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:35,000 Speaker 2: test was taken by to Alvin C. Graves jointed task 1228 01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:39,040 Speaker 2: for seven ships located thirty miles east of Bikini and 1229 01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,439 Speaker 2: what was thought to be an Upwin position began detecting 1230 01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:45,240 Speaker 2: high levels of radiation just two hours after the test. 1231 01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,479 Speaker 2: Very soon after, they began traveling south at full speed 1232 01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:53,479 Speaker 2: to avoid the fallout, but directly downwind of the blast 1233 01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,639 Speaker 2: and unable to travel were wrong. Alap and a Lingene 1234 01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:01,479 Speaker 2: Atolls Ariana explained the impacted to four there which residents 1235 01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:04,800 Speaker 2: were not warned about. American service people there want to 1236 01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,719 Speaker 2: stay inside, not eat or drink anything, but no such 1237 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:10,840 Speaker 2: warning was given to the local residents. 1238 01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:15,040 Speaker 11: Some said it looked like the guy was changing colors 1239 01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,360 Speaker 11: from red to yellow to orange. It was just a 1240 01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:21,200 Speaker 11: very very bright morning and then they started hearing like 1241 01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:23,920 Speaker 11: thunderous roars a couple of minutes later, and it was 1242 01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:26,920 Speaker 11: just like roars after Wars, and it was a very 1243 01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:31,160 Speaker 11: frightening time because this was just not something you know, 1244 01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:35,080 Speaker 11: does not happen every day. And then around ten am, 1245 01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:39,519 Speaker 11: the fallout had started to arrive. And these are accounts 1246 01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,040 Speaker 11: from ronlap at All, which is the closest to Bikini. 1247 01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:45,680 Speaker 11: The fallout had started to arrive and they were not 1248 01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,840 Speaker 11: sure what was going on. There was men out fishing. 1249 01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:54,880 Speaker 11: There was also stories from these witnesses that prior to 1250 01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:59,720 Speaker 11: this test, the military had gone to rout and they 1251 01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:03,160 Speaker 11: had movie nights and they would show the community of 1252 01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:04,919 Speaker 11: movies where it's snowing. 1253 01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,719 Speaker 2: Tomorrow we'll hear more about the consequences of the Bravo 1254 01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:11,679 Speaker 2: show for the people who, despite never having any quarrel 1255 01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,719 Speaker 2: with the USA, with the recipient of the largest nuclear 1256 01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:20,080 Speaker 2: bomb it's ever decimated. 1257 01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:49,800 Speaker 1: Ho Ho, Merry Christmas. Robert Evans here, and we had 1258 01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:53,200 Speaker 1: been planning to make a Newcome episode to give you 1259 01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,559 Speaker 1: all a white Christmas this year. But you know what 1260 01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:59,000 Speaker 1: I didn't wind up wanting to do right during the 1261 01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:02,400 Speaker 1: holidays when we didn't have to work, is spend hours 1262 01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:06,559 Speaker 1: researching some other weird Come conspiracies on the Internet. So 1263 01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:08,280 Speaker 1: we're just going to play the old Come episode for 1264 01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:11,519 Speaker 1: you as a rerun. I know that's not the most 1265 01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:14,040 Speaker 1: effortful version of our job that I could have done 1266 01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,679 Speaker 1: this year, but also it's been a real shitty year 1267 01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:19,559 Speaker 1: for everybody. So let's just listen to an old Come 1268 01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,240 Speaker 1: episode and pretend we gave you a new Come episode. 1269 01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:32,200 Speaker 1: Merry Christmas, everybody, dearly beloved, Welcome to it could happen here. 1270 01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:34,800 Speaker 1: We are gathered here today to get through this thing 1271 01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:39,080 Speaker 1: called life. Electric word life. It's a thing that only 1272 01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:42,400 Speaker 1: happens with the addition of a couple of ingredients, and 1273 01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:45,799 Speaker 1: one of those ingredients is the subject of our episode today. 1274 01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you guys like that? Everybody really happy with that? 1275 01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:52,880 Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, I'm feeling not at all like 1276 01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:54,280 Speaker 2: I want to kind of shower. 1277 01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:56,679 Speaker 8: Okay, can you can you can hear the moment where 1278 01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,639 Speaker 8: we're all simultaneously questioning every single decision. 1279 01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:01,120 Speaker 2: We higher lives. 1280 01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,599 Speaker 1: Now we're all bonded together. So how's everybody doing today? 1281 01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:12,080 Speaker 1: We've got Miil Wong, Garrison Davis, James Stout, and I 1282 01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:14,880 Speaker 1: should let people know I wasn't joking about the Come thing. 1283 01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:19,840 Speaker 1: So those of you who are too online will know this. 1284 01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:21,920 Speaker 1: Those of you who are not online enough. This is 1285 01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:24,360 Speaker 1: one of the online things that you will want to 1286 01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:26,720 Speaker 1: know because it's very funny. And the gist of it 1287 01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,920 Speaker 1: is that like four days ago, doctor Jordan B. Peterson 1288 01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:33,680 Speaker 1: got sent a link to a Twitter account that is 1289 01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:38,200 Speaker 1: that purports to be spreading like hidden news about the 1290 01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:42,439 Speaker 1: evils of the Chinese communist regime, and they put out 1291 01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:46,360 Speaker 1: a video that was a segment from a British milking 1292 01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:50,679 Speaker 1: fetish pornography video. Now, if you're not aware the milking, 1293 01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:52,160 Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, I believe it kind 1294 01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:57,439 Speaker 1: of descended from the long lineage of like rubber fetishists, right, 1295 01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,160 Speaker 1: and there's like a lot of medical fetish stuff it 1296 01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:02,040 Speaker 1: tied into it. But the idea is that men are 1297 01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:05,519 Speaker 1: entirely wrapped up on hospital gurney's and giant pumps sucked 1298 01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:08,439 Speaker 1: the sement out of them. 1299 01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:10,760 Speaker 2: So it's like a cow milka. The machine is very 1300 01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:11,719 Speaker 2: like milk. 1301 01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:17,600 Speaker 1: This Twitter account put this up claiming that it was 1302 01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:21,080 Speaker 1: the Chinese government stealing the semen of young men, and 1303 01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:25,080 Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson shared it saying it was an unbelievable act 1304 01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:28,400 Speaker 1: of evil and then everyone had the best day of 1305 01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:31,519 Speaker 1: their lives and an hour of two later he deleted it. 1306 01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,439 Speaker 1: Now I have been continuing. 1307 01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:39,840 Speaker 2: Coward, coward, coward. Yeah, so strange, so strange that he 1308 01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:41,560 Speaker 2: left the world of pay reviewed academia. 1309 01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:47,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's wild that he's no longer professor. It's very funny. 1310 01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:50,240 Speaker 1: We're continuing to give him shit for it online. But 1311 01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:53,240 Speaker 1: it set us off down an interesting road. And because 1312 01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:55,759 Speaker 1: some other stuff fell through, we're going to talk about 1313 01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:58,920 Speaker 1: the wide world of weird right wing come conspiracies. Most 1314 01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:00,639 Speaker 1: of them are leased, are going to be right. There's 1315 01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:05,879 Speaker 1: a surprising number of semen based conspiracies. Everybody did research 1316 01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:08,720 Speaker 1: on their own special thing. I wanted to start by 1317 01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:12,760 Speaker 1: talking about this this Jordan Peterson cum video and given 1318 01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:15,960 Speaker 1: kind of some of the some of the background on it, 1319 01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:20,519 Speaker 1: so I believe it was. Last July, the Chinese Human 1320 01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,200 Speaker 1: Sperm Bank of Shanghai announced that it was hosting a 1321 01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:27,000 Speaker 1: competition for college students to find out whose semen was 1322 01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:32,040 Speaker 1: the best in terms of, like, you know, a number 1323 01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:34,559 Speaker 1: of modal sperm per milli leader I think is the 1324 01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:37,479 Speaker 1: way that they judge it. And basically the idea was 1325 01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:40,719 Speaker 1: that they were trying to find like people with sperm 1326 01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:43,760 Speaker 1: concentration greater than sixty million per mili leader, and if 1327 01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,200 Speaker 1: they visited a sperm bank a set number of times 1328 01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:48,719 Speaker 1: in a six month period, they could receive a prize 1329 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:52,400 Speaker 1: that was equivalent to about twelve hundred dollars right now. 1330 01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:55,400 Speaker 1: The reason this is happening is that China, for the 1331 01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:58,120 Speaker 1: first time, as a result of a number of different policies, 1332 01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:02,000 Speaker 1: had negative popular growth very recently, and this is a 1333 01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:03,880 Speaker 1: thing that can cause a problem for a country for 1334 01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:06,000 Speaker 1: a variety of reasons. So the government is trying to 1335 01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:09,559 Speaker 1: shore up birth rates, and there are a lot of 1336 01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:14,120 Speaker 1: couples in China that have had issues conceiving, and so 1337 01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:17,000 Speaker 1: there's a huge amount of demand for sperm in the 1338 01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:20,160 Speaker 1: country right now. So this is not a weird story. 1339 01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:22,800 Speaker 1: It is actually a thing that happens all around the 1340 01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:26,639 Speaker 1: world regularly. But right around the time that this happened, 1341 01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:30,720 Speaker 1: a little bit after that, it came out that a 1342 01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:35,839 Speaker 1: Japanese company started selling what is called in the articles 1343 01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:41,080 Speaker 1: I Found an automatic sperm extractor to Chinese sperm banks. 1344 01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:47,759 Speaker 1: Now this is I'm going to send you all the link. 1345 01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:52,080 Speaker 1: I was hoping you would oh yes, good friends, thanks, 1346 01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:55,759 Speaker 1: but yes, we're all going to see this. So the machines. 1347 01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:58,400 Speaker 1: Price listing on ali Baba, where it sells for about 1348 01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:01,759 Speaker 1: five to six thousand dollars, describes it as a device 1349 01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:05,920 Speaker 1: that quote merges modern digital technology, automatic control technology, and 1350 01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:12,080 Speaker 1: simulation technologies with seamen collection and premature ejaculation desensitization training function. 1351 01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:15,519 Speaker 1: So it has a number of purposes including just to 1352 01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:21,280 Speaker 1: help guys stop coming too early, which no shame. It's 1353 01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:23,760 Speaker 1: funny that someone built a machine for it. 1354 01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,519 Speaker 2: It's extremely funny, and that you can buy on Ali Express. 1355 01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:29,559 Speaker 2: It's like, I personally, I'm not attaching anything. I bought 1356 01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:31,960 Speaker 2: an ali baba to sensitive part to my body makes 1357 01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:33,040 Speaker 2: thousand dollars. 1358 01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:36,040 Speaker 1: It's not cheap. Now, the primary these are not being 1359 01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:39,560 Speaker 1: used for people who are coming too quickly. 1360 01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:44,000 Speaker 2: Is like the worst every are to detwo this it is. 1361 01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:44,759 Speaker 1: It is weird. 1362 01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:47,160 Speaker 2: What's the orientation? Does it stand on the ground and 1363 01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:50,400 Speaker 2: you just approach it? You you have to stand up? Yeah? 1364 01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:51,920 Speaker 2: But what if you're a shot king. 1365 01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:55,559 Speaker 1: I say, I'm sure they have options. It has like 1366 01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:59,799 Speaker 1: the rough shape of like by a handheld massage device, 1367 01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:03,000 Speaker 1: but it's kind of like formed like almost an art 1368 01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:06,720 Speaker 1: deco robot vagina And basically from what I've read. Kind 1369 01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:08,920 Speaker 1: of the reasoning is that, like, hey, we need people 1370 01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:12,600 Speaker 1: to donate sperm. Some people feel weird about just masturbating 1371 01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:14,280 Speaker 1: in a clinic, and we hope this is a more 1372 01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:18,280 Speaker 1: pleasant experience for them. So again this we're laughing because like, look, 1373 01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:21,040 Speaker 1: a machine designed to capture semen is kind of a 1374 01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:24,000 Speaker 1: funny thing. That's okay, no shame on anybody for that. 1375 01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:28,120 Speaker 1: But the fact that you have both the government trying 1376 01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:31,280 Speaker 1: to encourage people to donate sperm and this weird machine 1377 01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:34,680 Speaker 1: kind of created fertile ground for a bunch of right 1378 01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:38,599 Speaker 1: wing weirdos to start making the grounded, I know, fertile 1379 01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:43,600 Speaker 1: ground to to make the completely un ungrounded claim that 1380 01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:47,000 Speaker 1: like the government was trying to steal people's semen, right, 1381 01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:50,480 Speaker 1: And that is the basis of doctor Jordan B. Peterson's 1382 01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:53,880 Speaker 1: fun little freak out on the internet. And I will say, 1383 01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:57,000 Speaker 1: you should try to find the videos of the automatic 1384 01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:01,080 Speaker 1: sperm extractor, this amazing Japanese machine, because it is fun. 1385 01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:02,120 Speaker 1: Its fascinating. 1386 01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,519 Speaker 13: On the cosign account, do they have to like like 1387 01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:07,880 Speaker 13: like change like I assume. 1388 01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:13,240 Speaker 2: They yes, the chang Yeah, you can't clean that. If 1389 01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:15,640 Speaker 2: you watch a video, there's like a there's a rebapod 1390 01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:18,400 Speaker 2: that like, uh, comes out like let's see it. 1391 01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:21,600 Speaker 1: The thing that the penis goes in is also the 1392 01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:25,439 Speaker 1: captured device, so it is removed with the sperm donation 1393 01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:29,320 Speaker 1: when you take it out. So again this is you know, 1394 01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:33,439 Speaker 1: funny because come, but there's nothing sinister here. It's just 1395 01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:36,680 Speaker 1: in the same way that literally everything is. People have 1396 01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:40,400 Speaker 1: like spun it up into a nonsense thing. But because 1397 01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:43,240 Speaker 1: of this beautiful, beautiful story, which I hope we've all 1398 01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,439 Speaker 1: gotten to enjoy, I got to do a lot of 1399 01:18:45,479 --> 01:18:48,000 Speaker 1: work on the some of you. If you live, if 1400 01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:50,120 Speaker 1: you've worked in agriculture, you're not going to be surprised 1401 01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:52,760 Speaker 1: that stealing come is a massive industry, like it is 1402 01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:54,679 Speaker 1: a There is a lot of money to be made 1403 01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:57,600 Speaker 1: in stealing semen. There's enough money to be made in 1404 01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:01,080 Speaker 1: stealing semen that there are two different official terms that 1405 01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:05,320 Speaker 1: I have found for seamen theft. The first is sperm jacking. 1406 01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:11,000 Speaker 2: How could they get better? How could they get better 1407 01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:11,240 Speaker 2: than that? 1408 01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,920 Speaker 1: It gets better because the second the second is spurgling. 1409 01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:26,240 Speaker 13: These are like professionals who like come up with these terms. Huh, 1410 01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:28,599 Speaker 13: these are a genius. 1411 01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:32,160 Speaker 1: There actually is. I did find in my research there 1412 01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:37,840 Speaker 1: is one actual Chinese based sperm conspiracy. It's just not 1413 01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:43,800 Speaker 1: a very sinister one. There's this Chinese businessman, Jesse jabet Zoo, 1414 01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:47,400 Speaker 1: who stole there. There's this I think it was a 1415 01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:51,160 Speaker 1: Canadian company. It was a US company who had So 1416 01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:53,920 Speaker 1: this is for like bull semen. And one of the 1417 01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,360 Speaker 1: things that you want for bull semen is you don't 1418 01:19:56,400 --> 01:20:00,400 Speaker 1: want if you're inciminating cows, you want all of the 1419 01:20:00,439 --> 01:20:03,720 Speaker 1: babies to be female generally, right, because bulls are not 1420 01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:06,880 Speaker 1: very with outside a certain specific If you're like trying 1421 01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:10,360 Speaker 1: to make more breeders or whatever, if you're in industrial agriculture, 1422 01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:11,920 Speaker 1: you don't want any of the boys, right. You just 1423 01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:14,000 Speaker 1: want to keep making those sweet, sweet lady cows that 1424 01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:16,719 Speaker 1: are you know, more useful to you in a financial sense. 1425 01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:20,160 Speaker 1: So there's a US company that developed a method of 1426 01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:25,400 Speaker 1: before insemination looking through the sperm and like sorting out 1427 01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:31,280 Speaker 1: the sperm that will make female cows. And that is 1428 01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:33,360 Speaker 1: apparently hard to do. I mean, it sounds like it 1429 01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:36,680 Speaker 1: would be hard to do, right, And this this this 1430 01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:40,840 Speaker 1: Chinese businessman was like reverse engineering there. It's kind of 1431 01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:44,719 Speaker 1: actually it's basically the same story as Jurassic Park and anyway, 1432 01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,760 Speaker 1: this guy has has gotten sued for a bunch of money. 1433 01:20:49,439 --> 01:20:50,280 Speaker 2: He got checked down. 1434 01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:54,280 Speaker 13: I hope, I hope it works out just as well 1435 01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:55,200 Speaker 13: as Jurassic Park. 1436 01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:58,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very funny. I will say there's a couple 1437 01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:02,479 Speaker 1: of really wild lines from this the CBC story I found. 1438 01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm just going to read one to you. Zoo's activities 1439 01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:08,760 Speaker 1: could best be described as machiavellian. At various points he 1440 01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,639 Speaker 1: outlined a plan to make x Y that's the American company. 1441 01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:14,720 Speaker 1: Quote feel all the time, the sort of damocles is 1442 01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:17,479 Speaker 1: on their heads and brag the law is strong, but 1443 01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:24,400 Speaker 1: the outlaws are ten times stronger. Okay, look Jesse Jabez, 1444 01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:28,960 Speaker 1: my hero, the sperm Bandit incredible sperm jacker, one of 1445 01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:30,479 Speaker 1: the best spur layers in the business. 1446 01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:34,400 Speaker 2: This man lives on an island with his cow raptors. 1447 01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:37,559 Speaker 1: What a hero. There was also a case of a 1448 01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:41,679 Speaker 1: Japanese man who illegally took wagyu cattle sperm to China 1449 01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:44,920 Speaker 1: to try to give them sperm, and like the Chinese 1450 01:21:44,960 --> 01:21:47,280 Speaker 1: government immediately caught him and was like, no, this is 1451 01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:49,920 Speaker 1: actually incredibly dangerous, Like you're not allowed to just take 1452 01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,280 Speaker 1: animal breeding material into the country. Without because you know, 1453 01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:55,160 Speaker 1: there's a wide variety of reasons that that could be 1454 01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:57,639 Speaker 1: in horribly so he got in a shipload of trouble. 1455 01:21:58,160 --> 01:21:58,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1456 01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,400 Speaker 1: Anyway, that's my that's my stories. Everybody. 1457 01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:03,679 Speaker 2: Thank you for rob. 1458 01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:10,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, thank you for spurgling my knowledge. Garrison. Oh, 1459 01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:13,960 Speaker 1: we're back, and James is here to talk to us 1460 01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:17,080 Speaker 1: about the kind of sperm jacking that you do when 1461 01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:20,559 Speaker 1: you don't jack. I'm talking about jacking your own sperm 1462 01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:23,840 Speaker 1: by keeping it inside of you semen retention. 1463 01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:29,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's how is that Jims beautiful? Unscripted? Did you 1464 01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:34,760 Speaker 2: just yeh didn't even write that, garrisons on the back 1465 01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:36,400 Speaker 2: of his hand. He had a brain wave at two 1466 01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:37,840 Speaker 2: in the morning and I got that down. 1467 01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:39,280 Speaker 1: But those are the kind of things you can do 1468 01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:40,920 Speaker 1: when you've been podcasting as long. 1469 01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:45,559 Speaker 14: As I cum space for several years. 1470 01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:48,840 Speaker 1: I've been in those soggy trenches for a long time. 1471 01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:53,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. All right, we are, after all at work, so 1472 01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:56,800 Speaker 2: let me continue. So I'm going to talk about what 1473 01:22:56,840 --> 01:23:00,599 Speaker 2: happens when you keep your home inside you. Uh okay, yeah, 1474 01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:07,240 Speaker 2: this is the thing. What are we doing today? 1475 01:23:07,280 --> 01:23:09,960 Speaker 1: This is this is critical journalisten. 1476 01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:16,720 Speaker 2: We are making content, doing talking of content. Let's talk 1477 01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:21,439 Speaker 2: about the content of some Reddit posters. So the what's 1478 01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:25,280 Speaker 2: called the seamen retention movement, and this will this will 1479 01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:29,639 Speaker 2: shock many of you began on Reddit dot com. 1480 01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:34,720 Speaker 14: Oh my god, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, like 1481 01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:35,320 Speaker 14: so many one. 1482 01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:40,280 Speaker 1: I feel like on Reddit, I feel like if you 1483 01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:42,439 Speaker 1: type that endo your phone, it would have finished the 1484 01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:43,519 Speaker 1: sentence the same. 1485 01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:49,000 Speaker 2: What has auto directed to Reddit? Believe me, we're gonna 1486 01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:51,760 Speaker 2: go there, Garrison, because when you google sperm retention, you 1487 01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:56,240 Speaker 2: do indeed find some stuff on Reddit. So now they've 1488 01:23:56,280 --> 01:23:58,400 Speaker 2: spun off from Reddit, right, they now have their own organization, 1489 01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:01,760 Speaker 2: which is no FAP dot com uh and No fat 1490 01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:04,840 Speaker 2: dot com is a community centered sexual health platform. I'm 1491 01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:07,720 Speaker 2: I'm using, I'm allowing them to define themselves here, I 1492 01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:10,960 Speaker 2: guess designed to help people overcome poor addiction and compulsive 1493 01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:15,200 Speaker 2: sexual behavior, which is is not necessarily like like the 1494 01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:18,920 Speaker 2: this isn't the like not all cemen retention, as we're 1495 01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:21,479 Speaker 2: going to learn, is based in helping people become addiction 1496 01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:25,280 Speaker 2: to porn, but so far as that is a thing 1497 01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:28,639 Speaker 2: that that people actually have. And if someone was accusing 1498 01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:31,680 Speaker 2: Robert of being addicted to porn on on his timeline, 1499 01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:32,320 Speaker 2: this weekend. 1500 01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:36,320 Speaker 1: That would be because I eat ratio and Jordan Peterson 1501 01:24:36,479 --> 01:24:40,120 Speaker 1: with the Yeah, the pornography video that he mistaking the 1502 01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:41,599 Speaker 1: post that's correct. 1503 01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:43,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. 1504 01:24:43,320 --> 01:24:46,080 Speaker 1: I just want him to respond so I can ask him, Jordan, 1505 01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:48,200 Speaker 1: tell me in your own words, what you thought was 1506 01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:49,360 Speaker 1: happening in that video. 1507 01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:53,680 Speaker 2: I really hope he thinks it's like milking, Like they 1508 01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:56,000 Speaker 2: have rfi D collars and they get fed based on 1509 01:24:56,040 --> 01:24:57,719 Speaker 2: their production level. That would be great. 1510 01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:01,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. And what did you you're you're medical doctor, did 1511 01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:05,639 Speaker 1: you think that cum actually worked that way? Just stick 1512 01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:06,640 Speaker 1: a sucker. 1513 01:25:07,360 --> 01:25:12,719 Speaker 2: Anyway, Yeah, just get it out. Okay. So after after 1514 01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:14,799 Speaker 2: this movement began, I read it dot com. It quickly 1515 01:25:14,840 --> 01:25:18,400 Speaker 2: pivoted to kind of offering all kinds of weird physical 1516 01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:22,320 Speaker 2: and mental health benefits, and that's where it was adopted 1517 01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:26,120 Speaker 2: by friends of the podcast, The Proud Boys. Luckily, we 1518 01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:28,639 Speaker 2: do have a bit of insight into why and into 1519 01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:30,800 Speaker 2: the exact nature of the no fat fascism that the 1520 01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:34,519 Speaker 2: Proud Boys practice thanks to Kyle Cheney, who's a Politico 1521 01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:37,240 Speaker 2: reporter who was reporting on the trial of one of 1522 01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:40,040 Speaker 2: the Proud Boys accused of tradition on January sixth, called 1523 01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:44,040 Speaker 2: Zach Rell and that trial for reasons that I'm not 1524 01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:48,760 Speaker 2: exactly clear on the proud boy. I guess it's like 1525 01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:50,880 Speaker 2: the handbook like that, the kind of prowdboy Bible was 1526 01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:53,920 Speaker 2: introduced and into the record. 1527 01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:55,240 Speaker 1: Yeah's in there. 1528 01:25:55,680 --> 01:25:58,720 Speaker 2: Yep, it's in the court record, buddy, because on the 1529 01:25:58,760 --> 01:25:59,760 Speaker 2: lawyers decided that it was. 1530 01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:00,639 Speaker 1: To the case. 1531 01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:04,080 Speaker 2: So a proud boy may not ejaculate alone more than 1532 01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:07,920 Speaker 2: once in every thirty days. That means he must abstained 1533 01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,680 Speaker 2: from pornography during that time. And if he needs to ejaculate, 1534 01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:14,960 Speaker 2: this is really weird, it must be within one yard 1535 01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:19,600 Speaker 2: of a woman. Fascinatingly spec yeah, yeah right, And I 1536 01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:23,400 Speaker 2: like that they've they've gone with imperial measurements with her consent, 1537 01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:26,440 Speaker 2: so that's nice. The woman may not be a prostitute, 1538 01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,160 Speaker 2: so that that's the proud poison nature. There no fat fairstuism. 1539 01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:34,000 Speaker 2: But I think I think the way of understanding why 1540 01:26:34,080 --> 01:26:36,680 Speaker 2: some people practice this perhaps best is to is to 1541 01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:38,559 Speaker 2: go on to reddit dot com. So I found a 1542 01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:41,519 Speaker 2: post by Reddit user u slash monk one nine one 1543 01:26:41,680 --> 01:26:45,040 Speaker 2: eight one seven. It seems like a nice guy, and 1544 01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:48,040 Speaker 2: there are four hundred, four hundred hy up votes on 1545 01:26:48,400 --> 01:26:50,120 Speaker 2: What I did was I went to seaman retention and 1546 01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:54,200 Speaker 2: I looked at you know, sorted by popular posts, found 1547 01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:58,559 Speaker 2: this one from a bunch of numbers. And so this 1548 01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:02,640 Speaker 2: guy has nine years of experience with semen retention. So 1549 01:27:02,680 --> 01:27:04,799 Speaker 2: I'm just going to read I'm presuming oh. 1550 01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:10,120 Speaker 1: Boy, yeah yeah, yeah yeah, him and some months off 1551 01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:12,000 Speaker 1: the coast of fucking lind Sparring. 1552 01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:15,519 Speaker 2: That cannot be healthy. Yeah no, I don't think it is. 1553 01:27:16,160 --> 01:27:17,720 Speaker 2: There is I will get to this evidence that you 1554 01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:21,840 Speaker 2: shouldn't do this. Uh So, in his nine years of experience, 1555 01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:25,559 Speaker 2: he has experienced the following things. Semen, when retained in 1556 01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:29,160 Speaker 2: our bodies, has healing, rejuvenating effects. Loss of seamen has 1557 01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:33,600 Speaker 2: the opposite effects. This may not be scientifically proven, but 1558 01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:38,120 Speaker 2: it's proven by experience. That's a red flag. That's interesting 1559 01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:41,719 Speaker 2: getting Reddit medical advice. While attempting any task that demands 1560 01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:44,679 Speaker 2: high physical, mental, or intellectual abilities, if we are semen 1561 01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:47,840 Speaker 2: retention powered, we would actually enjoy the task, which would 1562 01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:52,439 Speaker 2: otherwise seem dull. This is called sexual energy transmutation in 1563 01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:53,320 Speaker 2: layman's terms. 1564 01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:58,040 Speaker 8: Oh no, wait, that's the layman's what's the non laymen term? 1565 01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:06,200 Speaker 2: It's got even more. I have no idea spermozoic fucking fission. 1566 01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:10,280 Speaker 2: So for peak performance it's always necessary to be powered 1567 01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:12,920 Speaker 2: by semen. It would be best to use semen only 1568 01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:17,360 Speaker 2: for regenerating purposes, since nature originally intended it for regeneration, 1569 01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:20,240 Speaker 2: and not use it for sexual purposes apart from the 1570 01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:23,759 Speaker 2: create a child. If not serving that purpose, Master whatever 1571 01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:26,720 Speaker 2: teach techniques are useful in not letting the seed out 1572 01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:29,800 Speaker 2: while having sex. At the end of the day, don't 1573 01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:33,479 Speaker 2: let your seed out like a worthless thing. There's more so, 1574 01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:37,840 Speaker 2: just contain yourself great great, which is exactly the reason 1575 01:28:37,880 --> 01:28:41,280 Speaker 2: why core religions are based on celibacy, because opposite of 1576 01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:44,080 Speaker 2: regeneration is degeneration, which will cause a man to fall 1577 01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:46,720 Speaker 2: into a lower state controlled by his lower nature, rather 1578 01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:49,920 Speaker 2: than when he's subduing it. We should let semen retention 1579 01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:52,160 Speaker 2: be part of our lives, not something that is done 1580 01:28:52,200 --> 01:28:55,320 Speaker 2: for superpowers. For superpowers are in my experience, it's the 1581 01:28:55,400 --> 01:28:57,760 Speaker 2: sudden ecstasy that we feel once we transition from the 1582 01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:01,559 Speaker 2: degenerated to the regenerated state, and that will stabilize after 1583 01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:04,880 Speaker 2: some time, similar to how a flight maintained stable altitude 1584 01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:09,720 Speaker 2: after take off. Very very similar. Actually, yeah, that's that's 1585 01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:12,040 Speaker 2: what you can hear when the when the engine are 1586 01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:14,120 Speaker 2: spinning up. If just a do track really hard not 1587 01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:17,080 Speaker 2: to nut and it makes that noise. 1588 01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:19,920 Speaker 13: So excited for the next Marvel film where the where 1589 01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:21,360 Speaker 13: the superheroes. 1590 01:29:24,479 --> 01:29:27,360 Speaker 1: Not come so he can get tiny. 1591 01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:31,400 Speaker 2: No fat man. So yeah he didn't. I should add 1592 01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:34,160 Speaker 2: that this person confesses to having lapsed at some point 1593 01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:38,479 Speaker 2: in the nine years. Yeah it's. 1594 01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:43,400 Speaker 1: Armstrong was on steroids. It's just disappointing. 1595 01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:47,519 Speaker 2: No one would have seen it coming. See what I 1596 01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:52,040 Speaker 2: did there. Okay, So this person then urges other posters 1597 01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:54,479 Speaker 2: on the Semia retention subreddit to not use streaks to 1598 01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:57,439 Speaker 2: outperform others or look better about ourselves or bring others down. 1599 01:29:57,680 --> 01:29:59,920 Speaker 2: The battle with luster is a lifelong fight, and then 1600 01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:06,840 Speaker 2: we get better at finding victories. Yeah yeah, buddy, finding 1601 01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:09,439 Speaker 2: victories over internal battles, the better we become as high 1602 01:30:09,479 --> 01:30:09,960 Speaker 2: valued men. 1603 01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:16,439 Speaker 1: Hell yeah, I've often wished that, you know, if the 1604 01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:18,559 Speaker 1: if the pandemic hadn't been a thing, and I could 1605 01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:21,559 Speaker 1: force you all to work in a central location, I 1606 01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:24,000 Speaker 1: could have like a wall of murals where I put 1607 01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:26,759 Speaker 1: under each of your faces a quote from an episode 1608 01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:29,640 Speaker 1: that you've participated in, and James that that would be 1609 01:30:29,680 --> 01:30:33,160 Speaker 1: your quote the battle it's lusts a lifelong struggle. 1610 01:30:37,560 --> 01:30:39,519 Speaker 2: Yeah that, I'll get some T shirts knocked up and 1611 01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:40,120 Speaker 2: we can do a fund. 1612 01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:42,200 Speaker 13: Would we eventually get the cools on media offices? But 1613 01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:43,840 Speaker 13: you have a portrait hanging on the wall if you 1614 01:30:44,439 --> 01:30:46,080 Speaker 13: one quote underneath. 1615 01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:49,599 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, on a plaque with a yeah, let 1616 01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:50,479 Speaker 2: me get the cools. 1617 01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:53,880 Speaker 1: When we when we take over the meta offices three 1618 01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:54,719 Speaker 1: weeks from now. 1619 01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:59,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a marketing company that has been emailing 1620 01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:02,000 Speaker 2: me for about six months telling me how cheap it 1621 01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:03,840 Speaker 2: is to buy a billboard by the side of a 1622 01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:05,840 Speaker 2: road and send a message to a loved one. So 1623 01:31:05,920 --> 01:31:13,400 Speaker 2: maybe great, maybe doing bang array Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 1624 01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:15,960 Speaker 2: Well there will be until I put my positive messages 1625 01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:18,639 Speaker 2: about the controlling lust and holding semen inside our bodies 1626 01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:24,080 Speaker 2: true and return men to their former glory. So a 1627 01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:26,240 Speaker 2: lot of the a lot of the Reddit posts rely 1628 01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:29,000 Speaker 2: on a couple of different studies, right, and one of 1629 01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:31,920 Speaker 2: these studies measured participants. A lot of what they're doing 1630 01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:34,639 Speaker 2: is are claiming to increase testosterone right right at the bat. 1631 01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:38,360 Speaker 2: Testosterone does have Aslan's Armstrong can tell you some performance 1632 01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:43,759 Speaker 2: enhancing benefits so yeah, you know, increases your muscle growth, 1633 01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:48,120 Speaker 2: your your coverage from exercise, all that stuff. One of 1634 01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:52,519 Speaker 2: the studies measured participates testosterone levels baseline before masturbation and 1635 01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:56,800 Speaker 2: then in ten minute intervals after masturbation, right, And then 1636 01:31:56,880 --> 01:31:59,040 Speaker 2: they were asked to abstain for three weeks and they 1637 01:31:59,080 --> 01:32:02,120 Speaker 2: came back and they did the process again. Testosterone was 1638 01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:05,840 Speaker 2: higher in the baseline measurement at the at the end 1639 01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:09,240 Speaker 2: of the three weeks of abstinence, right, But the sample 1640 01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:12,600 Speaker 2: size was pretty small, and there's some theorizing that the 1641 01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:15,880 Speaker 2: boost was actually caused by the anticipated masturbation that they 1642 01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:19,439 Speaker 2: were about to do. At the second it was so 1643 01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:22,800 Speaker 2: ready to go. Yeah, yeah, he's guns. Yeah, you're just 1644 01:32:23,160 --> 01:32:27,840 Speaker 2: ready to pop. After three weeks, the second study looked 1645 01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:29,800 Speaker 2: at a forty five percent intury, so after a few 1646 01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:33,800 Speaker 2: days seven days of abstinence. But even the study showed 1647 01:32:33,800 --> 01:32:36,120 Speaker 2: this was a temporary peak that returned to normal even 1648 01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:40,200 Speaker 2: with continuing abstinence. So there's there's just these two studies. 1649 01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:45,280 Speaker 2: They're pretty they happened a long time ago. We'll post 1650 01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:46,639 Speaker 2: them all in the show notes if you guys want 1651 01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:49,800 Speaker 2: to read more about novap science. But we should just 1652 01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:51,800 Speaker 2: point out that there is, in fact a multitude of 1653 01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:54,960 Speaker 2: evidence this is a bad idea that having sex is 1654 01:32:55,000 --> 01:32:58,559 Speaker 2: actually good for you. Having sex will toward trying not 1655 01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:01,720 Speaker 2: to ejaculate. It's probably not for you, probably not good 1656 01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:10,519 Speaker 2: for your relationship either. One would surmise, there are that whatever, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1657 01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:12,519 Speaker 2: well yeah, if that's your thing, you do you do you. 1658 01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:17,160 Speaker 2: There was a study that investigated the motivation for semen 1659 01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:22,080 Speaker 2: and retention among semen and retainers, and a lot of 1660 01:33:22,120 --> 01:33:24,960 Speaker 2: it it seemed like it people were people who felt 1661 01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:27,599 Speaker 2: that like either sex or masturbation was unhealthy or wrong 1662 01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:30,880 Speaker 2: or sinful. And there is evidence to show that like 1663 01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:36,759 Speaker 2: feeling like guilty about yourself or like living with stress 1664 01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:38,439 Speaker 2: and self learning like that is bad for you, right, 1665 01:33:38,479 --> 01:33:42,040 Speaker 2: and that will reduce your test asterone level. There's also 1666 01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:44,320 Speaker 2: some evidence to suggest that not ejaculating can give you 1667 01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:46,080 Speaker 2: prostate issues. 1668 01:33:46,960 --> 01:33:52,880 Speaker 1: Which yes, yeah, there's there's and this is like pretty debatable, 1669 01:33:52,960 --> 01:33:57,080 Speaker 1: like most things that people talk about with in regards 1670 01:33:57,120 --> 01:34:00,000 Speaker 1: to coming and health, like you can find some studies, 1671 01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:02,760 Speaker 1: like the studies on testosterone. Some of them are kind 1672 01:34:02,760 --> 01:34:06,680 Speaker 1: of sketchy anyway, Yeah, I don't think oh, come or 1673 01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:12,120 Speaker 1: come either way, you know it's whatever, but if you 1674 01:34:12,200 --> 01:34:13,960 Speaker 1: do have a chance to fuck one of those Ali 1675 01:34:14,040 --> 01:34:18,160 Speaker 1: Baba robots, I recommend it keep out. 1676 01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:20,240 Speaker 2: Let's talk about cum demons. 1677 01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:26,040 Speaker 13: Hell yeah, wait, okay, okay, hard, hard pivot here from THESS. 1678 01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:31,240 Speaker 8: So, okay, we we are not going as far afield 1679 01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:33,120 Speaker 8: from the no fat. 1680 01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:35,160 Speaker 2: People as as as as you would think. 1681 01:34:35,800 --> 01:34:39,559 Speaker 8: Okay, but all right, now, the year is twenty twenty. 1682 01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:43,640 Speaker 8: Everyone on Earth has collectively gone insane. This is this 1683 01:34:43,720 --> 01:34:45,240 Speaker 8: is this is the summer. This is the summer of 1684 01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:47,479 Speaker 8: twenty twenty. So this is the part of twenty twenty 1685 01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:51,839 Speaker 8: where fun stuff is happening. This is like late July, oh, Garrison, 1686 01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:52,639 Speaker 8: that's when we met. 1687 01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:57,360 Speaker 13: So yeah, we were getting just incredibly poisoned. 1688 01:34:57,640 --> 01:35:02,200 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, we sure we're that'll be fun in like 1689 01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:03,120 Speaker 1: twenty years. 1690 01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:04,040 Speaker 2: Well. 1691 01:35:04,040 --> 01:35:06,960 Speaker 15: Well, while life or death struggle for the sort of 1692 01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:09,200 Speaker 15: the life for death struggle for the fate of the 1693 01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:11,240 Speaker 15: United States and whether or not people are going to 1694 01:35:11,280 --> 01:35:13,439 Speaker 15: be conducing murdered by the cops is being waged in 1695 01:35:13,479 --> 01:35:14,120 Speaker 15: the streets. 1696 01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:18,439 Speaker 8: Uh, Donald Trump, but Donald J. Trumpron, Donald J. Trump, Wow, 1697 01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:21,280 Speaker 8: Donald Trump Junior. That one, that's that's that's the Trump 1698 01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:26,120 Speaker 8: little Trump here. Yeah, Trump we're you know, looking for 1699 01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:28,960 Speaker 8: looking looking for their their their their curre to COVID 1700 01:35:29,040 --> 01:35:33,720 Speaker 8: nineteen on Twitter. And okay, so as we probably all remember, right, 1701 01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:35,960 Speaker 8: the thing that they found was hydroxy. Okay, so one 1702 01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:37,880 Speaker 8: of the first ones that they found before before I've 1703 01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:39,840 Speaker 8: remact him, this is, this is before we found much. 1704 01:35:40,200 --> 01:35:41,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, was it inside of them all along? 1705 01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:45,000 Speaker 8: Mayn No, this is this is this is hydrogy chlorically 1706 01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:46,080 Speaker 8: the thing that was probable. 1707 01:35:46,520 --> 01:35:50,120 Speaker 2: I hope they weren't full of hydrocic I thought it was. No. 1708 01:35:50,120 --> 01:35:51,960 Speaker 8: No, Well we'll get to that where there there's a 1709 01:35:53,800 --> 01:35:56,080 Speaker 8: The road is long, but it ends with cum demons. 1710 01:35:56,200 --> 01:36:00,360 Speaker 8: We first must walk the road. So the road here 1711 01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:05,960 Speaker 8: is Donald Donald Trump Junior posts to tweet saying like this, 1712 01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:11,000 Speaker 8: saying this is necessary watching about this video from this 1713 01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:16,920 Speaker 8: doctor named doctor Stella Emmanue. Now, okay, who is this person? 1714 01:36:17,240 --> 01:36:21,960 Speaker 8: She she is part of ah okay, I say part of. 1715 01:36:22,040 --> 01:36:28,960 Speaker 8: She runs this thing called Firepower Ministries, which so you're 1716 01:36:28,960 --> 01:36:30,960 Speaker 8: going great, she's also part. 1717 01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:33,600 Speaker 1: Of I know, broadly Yeah, okay, cool. 1718 01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:40,040 Speaker 8: She's also part of America's frontline doctors who are yeah, yeah, 1719 01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:45,320 Speaker 8: I've forgotten. Yeah, these dipshits, Oh my god, Okay, so 1720 01:36:45,560 --> 01:36:47,439 Speaker 8: this is this is very very very much in the 1721 01:36:47,439 --> 01:36:51,559 Speaker 8: same vein as architect nine to eleven Truths. They found 1722 01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:54,040 Speaker 8: a bunch of people who technically have medical degrees or 1723 01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:58,400 Speaker 8: like nurses who were like, no, no vaccines are bad 1724 01:36:58,479 --> 01:37:03,519 Speaker 8: and hydroxychloricalleine contractor corn clean is we'll covid cork with 1725 01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:06,240 Speaker 8: that one. Yeah, it's it's, it's been, it's it's been 1726 01:37:06,280 --> 01:37:09,800 Speaker 8: a long day. I've slept for eight hours, but in 1727 01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:14,560 Speaker 8: like several distinct parts of the day that were not continuous. 1728 01:37:14,600 --> 01:37:14,920 Speaker 2: It's been. 1729 01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:17,599 Speaker 8: Things are going, things are going great. 1730 01:37:17,680 --> 01:37:19,879 Speaker 2: Fact, if you've taken some horse medicine first. 1731 01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:21,880 Speaker 8: Quite possibly, I mean it's not like it could have 1732 01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:27,400 Speaker 8: gone worse, all right, right, So so that this person's 1733 01:37:27,400 --> 01:37:30,559 Speaker 8: from the very sketchy doctors who are trying to sell 1734 01:37:31,360 --> 01:37:35,160 Speaker 8: like a bunch of random ship to to cure covid. 1735 01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:40,800 Speaker 8: And okay, so who actually is this person? She is 1736 01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:46,760 Speaker 8: from camera Rooon and doctor Stella. Meant Immanue was caught 1737 01:37:46,880 --> 01:37:52,040 Speaker 8: up in uh, the unbelievably sort of like i mean right, 1738 01:37:52,080 --> 01:37:56,320 Speaker 8: like yes, objectively right wing, also very very weird wave 1739 01:37:56,520 --> 01:38:01,040 Speaker 8: of Pentecostalism and charismatic Christianity that been sweeping across that 1740 01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:03,000 Speaker 8: part of Africa and as part of sort of a 1741 01:38:03,520 --> 01:38:05,920 Speaker 8: you know, sort of like a very sort of long 1742 01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:09,160 Speaker 8: range of coordinated effort by by right when Christian missionaries. 1743 01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:13,040 Speaker 8: So okay, So for for people who don't know your 1744 01:38:13,120 --> 01:38:18,639 Speaker 8: Christianity very well, the Pentecostals and the charismatic Christians are 1745 01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:23,240 Speaker 8: like firmly in the very very weird camp of Christians. 1746 01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:25,679 Speaker 8: Like these are these are the people who do faith healing. 1747 01:38:26,280 --> 01:38:28,160 Speaker 8: One of the very common sort of Pentecostal things is 1748 01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:31,360 Speaker 8: this belief that like like you just you talk to God, 1749 01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:34,000 Speaker 8: like God's in your head and you just have conversations 1750 01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,360 Speaker 8: with Him. Now, unfortunately for like all of us, and 1751 01:38:36,600 --> 01:38:38,559 Speaker 8: this is you know what a thing that is a 1752 01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:41,479 Speaker 8: non insignificant contributing factor to why the last I don't 1753 01:38:41,479 --> 01:38:44,040 Speaker 8: know ten years have been so bat shit is that 1754 01:38:44,120 --> 01:38:47,479 Speaker 8: like this originally was kind of an isolated Pentecostal thing, 1755 01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:50,519 Speaker 8: and like the broader evangelicals were like, no, no, no, God 1756 01:38:50,520 --> 01:38:53,040 Speaker 8: only talks to me like your pastor like it's probably 1757 01:38:53,080 --> 01:38:55,439 Speaker 8: not like you're you're not like having a conversation in 1758 01:38:55,479 --> 01:38:58,880 Speaker 8: your head with but like change that's changed. Yeah, this 1759 01:38:59,400 --> 01:39:02,639 Speaker 8: shit has, this shit has fucking taken over everywhere. It's 1760 01:39:02,720 --> 01:39:06,880 Speaker 8: really bad. And these people believe a lot of very 1761 01:39:06,960 --> 01:39:10,320 Speaker 8: very weird stuff. So well, I mean, okay, so, like, 1762 01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:12,479 Speaker 8: you know, she she has like some of the sort 1763 01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:17,439 Speaker 8: of standard like really really hardline like David iike shit, 1764 01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:19,879 Speaker 8: Like she believes that the world's being run by aliens 1765 01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:24,799 Speaker 8: and like reptiles, and like the vaccine has like alien 1766 01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:26,960 Speaker 8: DNA in it to like take over your data. 1767 01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:27,280 Speaker 16: You know. 1768 01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:30,000 Speaker 8: It's just like sort of kind of Facebook moments Alex Jones, Shit, 1769 01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:33,519 Speaker 8: yeah right, okay, but okay, I'm gonna read this quote 1770 01:39:33,520 --> 01:39:36,559 Speaker 8: from will Sumner. This is a quote from one of 1771 01:39:36,560 --> 01:39:41,240 Speaker 8: her her sermons. They, which is, demons are responsible for 1772 01:39:41,320 --> 01:39:45,639 Speaker 8: serious guynecological problems. And Manuel said, we call them all 1773 01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:49,360 Speaker 8: kinds of names, and Tromesus and Travisius, we call them 1774 01:39:49,439 --> 01:39:52,759 Speaker 8: molar pregnancies, we call them fibroids, we call them cysts, 1775 01:39:53,200 --> 01:40:00,920 Speaker 8: but most of them were evil deposits from spirit husband. 1776 01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:00,840 Speaker 2: God. 1777 01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:01,400 Speaker 6: Yeah. 1778 01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:05,960 Speaker 8: No, they are responsible for miscarriage's impotence men that can't 1779 01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:06,599 Speaker 8: get it up. 1780 01:40:07,360 --> 01:40:09,559 Speaker 2: So all right, immediately we we have like we have 1781 01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:10,240 Speaker 2: there are. 1782 01:40:10,200 --> 01:40:13,040 Speaker 8: Several kinds of cum demons here that we're dealing with. 1783 01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:16,559 Speaker 8: So there are like there, there's, there's there's Okay. So 1784 01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:20,960 Speaker 8: a lot of this is drawn from what is a 1785 01:40:21,200 --> 01:40:23,160 Speaker 8: very like a genu widely. 1786 01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:25,080 Speaker 2: Unbelievably dubious piece of theology. 1787 01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:27,599 Speaker 8: So when I was researching this, right, I saw, I saw, 1788 01:40:28,360 --> 01:40:30,160 Speaker 8: I saw someone there there was there was like a 1789 01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:33,040 Speaker 8: religious scholar who was writing this. He was like, oh, 1790 01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:35,840 Speaker 8: I immediately recognized the theology of this. This is from 1791 01:40:35,880 --> 01:40:37,800 Speaker 8: this is from Genesis six. 1792 01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:39,000 Speaker 2: So okay. 1793 01:40:39,000 --> 01:40:40,240 Speaker 8: So I was like, Okay, what what the fuck are 1794 01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:42,720 Speaker 8: they talking about? So I went back and I read. Okay, 1795 01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:44,800 Speaker 8: So I went back and I read the Genesis, and 1796 01:40:44,920 --> 01:40:47,920 Speaker 8: I'm going to read the two this is. This is 1797 01:40:47,920 --> 01:40:50,720 Speaker 8: from Genesis chapter six, verses one and two, and I 1798 01:40:50,760 --> 01:40:53,639 Speaker 8: am just going to read these two sentences, and I'm 1799 01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:56,040 Speaker 8: going to see if you two can produce cum demons 1800 01:40:56,080 --> 01:40:56,400 Speaker 8: from this. 1801 01:40:56,920 --> 01:40:59,160 Speaker 2: Okay, happy, I. 1802 01:40:59,160 --> 01:41:04,120 Speaker 1: Mean I could produce com demons from almost anything. That 1803 01:41:04,280 --> 01:41:05,680 Speaker 1: is that is the power. 1804 01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:08,679 Speaker 2: With the right machinery. 1805 01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:10,800 Speaker 1: You know what, I think we know exactly what the 1806 01:41:10,880 --> 01:41:11,880 Speaker 1: right machinery is. 1807 01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:15,360 Speaker 8: Look, we know that we can produce com demons mechanically. 1808 01:41:15,400 --> 01:41:20,639 Speaker 8: Our challenge here is to produce them theologically. Okay, try 1809 01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:22,280 Speaker 8: I will, I will use all of all of. 1810 01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:23,200 Speaker 2: My claim knowledge. 1811 01:41:23,360 --> 01:41:25,840 Speaker 1: We must we must find a way to evacuate the 1812 01:41:25,920 --> 01:41:27,400 Speaker 1: vast deference of the soul. 1813 01:41:30,360 --> 01:41:33,160 Speaker 8: Okay, so I'm using I'm using the King James translation 1814 01:41:33,240 --> 01:41:36,760 Speaker 8: because that's the translation that all these psychos use. And 1815 01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:39,680 Speaker 8: it came to pass when men began to multiply on 1816 01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:42,479 Speaker 8: the face of the earth and daughters were born onto them, 1817 01:41:42,800 --> 01:41:45,080 Speaker 8: that the sons of God saw the daughters of man 1818 01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:47,559 Speaker 8: that they were fair, and they took them wives of 1819 01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:51,240 Speaker 8: all which they chose. Okay, so I I do know 1820 01:41:51,320 --> 01:41:54,800 Speaker 8: where they're I do know what they are doing. So 1821 01:41:54,880 --> 01:41:56,719 Speaker 8: the sons of God those would be what like fallen 1822 01:41:56,760 --> 01:41:58,719 Speaker 8: angels that have been procreating with women. 1823 01:41:58,880 --> 01:42:01,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think. 1824 01:42:01,360 --> 01:42:03,559 Speaker 13: This ties into like the Book of Enoch stuff, which 1825 01:42:03,600 --> 01:42:06,720 Speaker 13: was made a little bit like after Genesis but kind 1826 01:42:06,720 --> 01:42:10,479 Speaker 13: of like retconned a lot of like the creation story. 1827 01:42:10,680 --> 01:42:14,559 Speaker 13: So I can see where they're they're pulling cum demons from. 1828 01:42:14,920 --> 01:42:17,000 Speaker 13: But it is it is a bit of a stretch. 1829 01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:19,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're kind of you could say cum demons in 1830 01:42:19,680 --> 01:42:23,200 Speaker 1: the way that like God seed. Yeah, you could see it. Yeah, 1831 01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:24,599 Speaker 1: it's that's it is a stretch. 1832 01:42:25,160 --> 01:42:25,320 Speaker 2: Now. 1833 01:42:25,360 --> 01:42:28,080 Speaker 8: Okay, my my my analysis, because I I think I 1834 01:42:28,760 --> 01:42:30,679 Speaker 8: I think they're pulling this out of their ass. 1835 01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:32,320 Speaker 2: And I think they're pulling this out of their ass. 1836 01:42:35,080 --> 01:42:39,519 Speaker 2: It's also about cum demons. So yeah, okay. 1837 01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:42,960 Speaker 8: Like I I I have it is well known for 1838 01:42:43,000 --> 01:42:44,479 Speaker 8: people who follow me on Twitter that I have an 1839 01:42:44,520 --> 01:42:49,200 Speaker 8: immense and powerful disrespect for theology. But what what part 1840 01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:53,400 Speaker 8: of the sons of God? What what part of that 1841 01:42:53,560 --> 01:42:54,920 Speaker 8: gets you to demons? 1842 01:42:55,040 --> 01:42:55,360 Speaker 2: And not? 1843 01:42:55,560 --> 01:42:55,600 Speaker 6: Like? 1844 01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:58,680 Speaker 8: Because again, isn't the whole point of Christianity that we 1845 01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:00,800 Speaker 8: are all God's children? Like, isn't it? 1846 01:43:01,160 --> 01:43:03,400 Speaker 2: Is this not a thing that they tell you in 1847 01:43:03,479 --> 01:43:04,559 Speaker 2: every single fucking sir? 1848 01:43:04,800 --> 01:43:07,679 Speaker 8: How do you read that and not think they're talking 1849 01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:10,479 Speaker 8: about people and immediately jump to come to you a 1850 01:43:10,520 --> 01:43:12,240 Speaker 8: bit like, here's what's going on? 1851 01:43:12,320 --> 01:43:14,160 Speaker 13: I could, I could explain this because this is the 1852 01:43:14,240 --> 01:43:16,759 Speaker 13: King James version. So this was made in a post 1853 01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:19,840 Speaker 13: Book of Enoch world. Around the around the alleged birth 1854 01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:22,680 Speaker 13: of Jesus, the Book of Enoch got very popular and 1855 01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:25,320 Speaker 13: this this introduced the idea of a fallen angel. The 1856 01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:27,479 Speaker 13: fallow fallen angel isn't really in the Bible at all, 1857 01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:32,320 Speaker 13: It's only it's only in like non biblical Abrahamic texts. 1858 01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:36,320 Speaker 13: So this this idea then kind of got planted into 1859 01:43:36,360 --> 01:43:39,360 Speaker 13: a lot of like Catholic mythology as well. So when 1860 01:43:39,400 --> 01:43:42,040 Speaker 13: they're there caused they have a distinction between like the 1861 01:43:42,360 --> 01:43:45,080 Speaker 13: like the sons of like the sons of God versus 1862 01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:47,839 Speaker 13: what was the what was the thing they used to 1863 01:43:47,479 --> 01:43:48,759 Speaker 13: refer to the daughters. 1864 01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:52,560 Speaker 8: The sons are the daughters of men exactly, So the 1865 01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:56,960 Speaker 8: daughters are human, where the the the sons are like 1866 01:43:57,160 --> 01:43:57,880 Speaker 8: came from God. 1867 01:43:57,960 --> 01:43:59,720 Speaker 13: So that is some type of fallen angel that has 1868 01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:04,200 Speaker 13: been asked down to earth. They are doing a specific thing, 1869 01:44:04,600 --> 01:44:06,559 Speaker 13: but it's it's it's it's a result of a whole 1870 01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:09,320 Speaker 13: bunch of like mistranslations and a whole bunch of various 1871 01:44:09,560 --> 01:44:12,640 Speaker 13: various like Christian and Gnostic texts that been that have 1872 01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:14,880 Speaker 13: been misinterpreted for thousands of years by the Catholic Church, 1873 01:44:15,080 --> 01:44:18,120 Speaker 13: and it creates a really weird theology that is indistinguishable 1874 01:44:18,160 --> 01:44:19,160 Speaker 13: from like Castlevania. 1875 01:44:19,439 --> 01:44:22,640 Speaker 8: So yeah, I blame I blamed Martin lud This is 1876 01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:27,599 Speaker 8: Martin Luther's fault, like like, here's. 1877 01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:32,480 Speaker 2: The thing, here's the thing. Keep it in high latins, understand. 1878 01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:34,599 Speaker 8: This, this is this is this is what Martin Luther. 1879 01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:36,479 Speaker 8: I'm specifically because okay. So this was already happy. The 1880 01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:38,439 Speaker 8: cath the Church was already doing this right. But Martin 1881 01:44:38,520 --> 01:44:41,559 Speaker 8: Luther had a chance to fix this ship. And she 1882 01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:43,519 Speaker 8: was like, do you know what I'm gonna do and say, 1883 01:44:43,640 --> 01:44:45,680 Speaker 8: is that I am going to I am going to 1884 01:44:45,760 --> 01:44:48,000 Speaker 8: turn against the peasant revolts and I'm going to do 1885 01:44:48,040 --> 01:44:49,880 Speaker 8: a lot. I'm going to bring about a level of 1886 01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:52,760 Speaker 8: anti Semitism that is going to allow me to outflank 1887 01:44:52,800 --> 01:44:56,799 Speaker 8: the Inquisition on the right. She could have been fixing 1888 01:44:56,840 --> 01:45:01,840 Speaker 8: this bullshit no anti seven is I gotta keep my 1889 01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:03,640 Speaker 8: patron lords and down he was. 1890 01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:07,120 Speaker 1: He was German, like, there's only so much you can ask. 1891 01:45:07,080 --> 01:45:07,799 Speaker 2: That's true. 1892 01:45:08,479 --> 01:45:10,920 Speaker 13: Yeah, well I'm happy that we can all go to 1893 01:45:10,920 --> 01:45:14,000 Speaker 13: sleep at night worrying about the sons of God implanting semen. 1894 01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:16,880 Speaker 2: There's okay. 1895 01:45:16,920 --> 01:45:20,040 Speaker 8: So that that's that's com demon type type one, right, 1896 01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:22,640 Speaker 8: That is okay. So though those are those are the 1897 01:45:22,640 --> 01:45:25,479 Speaker 8: demons that like they they have they have sex with 1898 01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:30,360 Speaker 8: women and they produce nephilim from or sometimes also nephelin. 1899 01:45:30,600 --> 01:45:32,479 Speaker 8: There's there's a lot of sort of conflicting sort of theology. 1900 01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:34,000 Speaker 13: All that stuff comes from the Book of Enoch, All 1901 01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:36,720 Speaker 13: that stuff is non canon to the modern Bible, but 1902 01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:38,280 Speaker 13: it's where it's where it comes from. 1903 01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:39,960 Speaker 1: Sucking Council of nicea. 1904 01:45:42,880 --> 01:45:45,360 Speaker 8: Okay, but there's also there's also a second there's also 1905 01:45:45,400 --> 01:45:47,960 Speaker 8: the second kind of cum demon, right, which is these 1906 01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:50,000 Speaker 8: are the these are well okay, so so succuby and 1907 01:45:50,040 --> 01:45:51,639 Speaker 8: incuby are based here. 1908 01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:52,320 Speaker 2: We go, I do it. 1909 01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:57,599 Speaker 8: I was it was counting down the the other kind 1910 01:45:57,640 --> 01:46:00,559 Speaker 8: of of demon. So you have your incub by, right, 1911 01:46:00,600 --> 01:46:02,879 Speaker 8: who are another type of sex demon, and the incuby 1912 01:46:02,920 --> 01:46:06,120 Speaker 8: fuck men so they can steal their semen and they're 1913 01:46:06,160 --> 01:46:08,080 Speaker 8: they're they're you know, there's some statements are reasons that. 1914 01:46:08,040 --> 01:46:10,360 Speaker 8: There's another thing that she talks about, which is that 1915 01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:13,920 Speaker 8: there are witches who have like astral spirit sex with 1916 01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:16,000 Speaker 8: men in their sleep. And if you're like having a 1917 01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:18,759 Speaker 8: sex stream, it's because you're having actual spirit sex. 1918 01:46:19,680 --> 01:46:19,840 Speaker 4: No. 1919 01:46:19,840 --> 01:46:22,280 Speaker 1: No, yeah, I mean like I like Bill Murray, I've 1920 01:46:22,320 --> 01:46:25,639 Speaker 1: I've experienced that. Oh no, that was Bill Murray. Sorry, 1921 01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:26,719 Speaker 1: my mistake. 1922 01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:33,679 Speaker 8: Oh wait, yes, okay, okay, the cloud the fog is clearing. 1923 01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:36,240 Speaker 8: I've I've had I've had sex with too many sex demons. 1924 01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:37,880 Speaker 8: It's it's a real issue. 1925 01:46:38,040 --> 01:46:38,920 Speaker 2: Okay. So, so all right. 1926 01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:41,960 Speaker 8: So we have the sex demons who are like trying 1927 01:46:41,960 --> 01:46:43,680 Speaker 8: to pregnant. You have the sex demons, you're trying to 1928 01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:45,920 Speaker 8: steal your cump. We also have the actual we have 1929 01:46:45,960 --> 01:46:48,799 Speaker 8: the actual projecting projecting witches, right, and the actual projecting 1930 01:46:48,840 --> 01:46:51,640 Speaker 8: witches are trying to steal people's come as part of 1931 01:46:51,680 --> 01:46:54,800 Speaker 8: an Illuminati plot to create like an even more powerful witch. 1932 01:46:55,040 --> 01:46:57,200 Speaker 8: And the even more powerful witch is going to use 1933 01:46:57,240 --> 01:47:00,439 Speaker 8: gay marriage and children's toys to like destroy the fabric 1934 01:47:00,439 --> 01:47:04,439 Speaker 8: of Western civilization. That does bring about sort of jen 1935 01:47:04,560 --> 01:47:06,720 Speaker 8: general new World order, ETCA have heard this. 1936 01:47:06,840 --> 01:47:11,360 Speaker 1: Honestly, Lan Witch meetings, Yeah, it is not as far 1937 01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:15,120 Speaker 1: from the backstory to Warhammer forty thousand as it should be. 1938 01:47:15,560 --> 01:47:18,080 Speaker 8: That's very sadly true. 1939 01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:20,519 Speaker 2: I didn't want Warhammer forty thousands coming to our com 1940 01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:24,120 Speaker 2: episode if I'm honahed, No, it's. 1941 01:47:24,000 --> 01:47:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean, look, there's a lot of people who are 1942 01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:31,920 Speaker 1: interested in both Semen Retention and Warhammer forty thousand. 1943 01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:34,599 Speaker 2: That's a tight vendram. 1944 01:47:34,960 --> 01:47:38,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they all play Ultra Marines. That was ah, 1945 01:47:38,840 --> 01:47:41,479 Speaker 1: that's yeah, pretty good Warhammer forty thousand joke for those 1946 01:47:41,520 --> 01:47:42,320 Speaker 1: of you who play. 1947 01:47:43,479 --> 01:47:45,679 Speaker 8: I also learned a couple of days ago that I 1948 01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:48,160 Speaker 8: one of the many crimes of the Emperor forty K 1949 01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:50,880 Speaker 8: was passing off in a Miri Bakara quote as his own. 1950 01:47:51,920 --> 01:47:54,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that that is that was That was a 1951 01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:57,120 Speaker 1: good bit. That was a really good bit. It's little 1952 01:47:57,160 --> 01:47:59,920 Speaker 1: pieces like that that let you know that Dan Abnetz 1953 01:48:00,040 --> 01:48:06,599 Speaker 1: pretty bass. That was my favorite part of the book. 1954 01:48:07,040 --> 01:48:09,599 Speaker 2: So funny. That's like, that's literally cannon. 1955 01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:14,479 Speaker 13: I do have like three pages written on Tanning. So yeah, 1956 01:48:15,080 --> 01:48:17,360 Speaker 13: little bit. That's that's that's the end of the same 1957 01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:20,639 Speaker 13: stems go off. Well, okay, I The one thing I'll 1958 01:48:20,680 --> 01:48:23,160 Speaker 13: add on is that one of the more funny modern 1959 01:48:23,240 --> 01:48:25,920 Speaker 13: versions of these, if you go on the betted drill 1960 01:48:25,960 --> 01:48:30,200 Speaker 13: subreddit the recreational pedetul subreddit, you can fight pop who 1961 01:48:30,280 --> 01:48:32,920 Speaker 13: try to take enough beta drill to have sex with 1962 01:48:33,000 --> 01:48:36,120 Speaker 13: the hat man, which is another. 1963 01:48:37,560 --> 01:48:42,000 Speaker 2: Another form of trying to sum a shadow people. Maybe 1964 01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:43,439 Speaker 2: you have to you have. 1965 01:48:43,400 --> 01:48:45,240 Speaker 1: To explain your terms for people here. 1966 01:48:45,320 --> 01:48:46,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a man. 1967 01:48:47,120 --> 01:48:50,200 Speaker 1: The man is a tall, thin man wearing a hat 1968 01:48:50,240 --> 01:48:53,400 Speaker 1: who appears when you take hallucinogenic doses of ben a 1969 01:48:53,479 --> 01:48:56,720 Speaker 1: drill because you can't afford better drugs because you're seventeen. 1970 01:48:57,080 --> 01:49:00,000 Speaker 2: Yes, we're younger, and there's some people the hat man. 1971 01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:03,320 Speaker 13: Some people find the hat man extremely attractive, or some 1972 01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:07,280 Speaker 13: of like the female shadow people variants and they try 1973 01:49:07,320 --> 01:49:11,120 Speaker 13: to I have read multiple reports of people explaining their 1974 01:49:11,160 --> 01:49:13,040 Speaker 13: sexual experiences with shadow people. 1975 01:49:13,960 --> 01:49:16,519 Speaker 8: Anyways, the President of the United States and his son 1976 01:49:16,640 --> 01:49:19,040 Speaker 8: were promoting this, so this is great. 1977 01:49:19,880 --> 01:49:23,120 Speaker 2: This website, by the way, absolute adventures on here. I'm 1978 01:49:23,160 --> 01:49:27,719 Speaker 2: just reading about how to use Christ's blood as a weapon. Amazing. 1979 01:49:27,880 --> 01:49:28,519 Speaker 1: Oh that's good. 1980 01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:32,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no problems here. Yeah. Do you know who 1981 01:49:32,280 --> 01:49:33,919 Speaker 2: won't steal your semen? Everybody? 1982 01:49:34,560 --> 01:49:35,360 Speaker 1: We can't promise that. 1983 01:49:35,720 --> 01:49:36,240 Speaker 2: I can. 1984 01:49:36,360 --> 01:49:39,120 Speaker 13: I can promise any advertiser on this show. I've personally 1985 01:49:39,160 --> 01:49:41,760 Speaker 13: approved to make sure they will not come into your 1986 01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:42,960 Speaker 13: bedroom and steal your semen. 1987 01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:46,519 Speaker 2: Wow, how do you do? How's the approval? Press work 1988 01:49:46,600 --> 01:49:50,360 Speaker 2: is out of interest. I cannot divulge privately. 1989 01:49:50,479 --> 01:49:51,519 Speaker 1: Since Garrison for. 1990 01:49:55,880 --> 01:49:58,200 Speaker 13: We are we are going to close off by talking 1991 01:49:58,320 --> 01:50:04,800 Speaker 13: about a an testosterone, two of our favorite topics for 1992 01:50:04,840 --> 01:50:09,040 Speaker 13: this episode. For some reason, about a year ago, a 1993 01:50:09,080 --> 01:50:12,200 Speaker 13: trailer on Fox News dropped for a new batch of 1994 01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:17,719 Speaker 13: Tucker Carlson originals, titled The End of Men. It opens 1995 01:50:17,760 --> 01:50:20,840 Speaker 13: with the text that reads, in the current year. 1996 01:50:21,439 --> 01:50:23,120 Speaker 1: The cycle continues. 1997 01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:30,880 Speaker 17: Once a society collapses, then if you're in hard times, well, 1998 01:50:31,880 --> 01:50:35,719 Speaker 17: hard iron sharpens iron, as they'd say, and those hard 1999 01:50:35,720 --> 01:50:39,880 Speaker 17: times inevitably produce men who are tough, men, who are 2000 01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:44,519 Speaker 17: resource for, men who are strong enough to survive, and 2001 01:50:44,560 --> 01:50:47,200 Speaker 17: then they go on to re establish order, and so 2002 01:50:47,439 --> 01:50:48,679 Speaker 17: the cycle begins again. 2003 01:50:53,920 --> 01:50:57,360 Speaker 13: Now there's a few funny things about this video, from 2004 01:50:57,479 --> 01:51:00,840 Speaker 13: the ripped shirtless dudes milking cows, to wrestling each other 2005 01:51:01,240 --> 01:51:05,559 Speaker 13: and shooting bottles of canola oil. There's had a hundred 2006 01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:08,960 Speaker 13: inche that is shooting like ten bottles of canola oil 2007 01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:10,000 Speaker 13: for some reason. 2008 01:51:10,240 --> 01:51:14,759 Speaker 2: Maybe the Mussolini's leg there into the Mussolini staff. 2009 01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:18,320 Speaker 13: He was bye by far the most bizarre. 2010 01:51:18,479 --> 01:51:20,720 Speaker 1: I suspect they're shooting the canola because it's like a 2011 01:51:20,720 --> 01:51:24,400 Speaker 1: seed oil thing. They think that like a right wing thing. 2012 01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:28,040 Speaker 1: Oils are like sucking out your testosterone. 2013 01:51:28,040 --> 01:51:30,960 Speaker 13: Anyway, it's something very silly, but by far the most 2014 01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:34,640 Speaker 13: bizarre thing in this trailer is a shot of a 2015 01:51:34,760 --> 01:51:38,320 Speaker 13: naked man with outstretched arms like Jesus on the Cross 2016 01:51:38,320 --> 01:51:41,120 Speaker 13: of style, standing in front of a lake at dusk, 2017 01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:44,720 Speaker 13: with a white machine shining a glowing red light on 2018 01:51:44,800 --> 01:51:51,840 Speaker 13: his Dick. What and again powerful image at the clibax 2019 01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:54,320 Speaker 13: of the music from two thousand and one Space Odyssey. Uh, 2020 01:51:54,479 --> 01:51:58,360 Speaker 13: there's this there's this man facing balls first in front 2021 01:51:58,360 --> 01:52:01,000 Speaker 13: of this large red light at the end of this trailer. 2022 01:52:01,640 --> 01:52:05,479 Speaker 1: I there should never have been any cause on our 2023 01:52:05,520 --> 01:52:08,880 Speaker 1: podcast or on Fox News for anyone to save the 2024 01:52:08,920 --> 01:52:12,280 Speaker 1: line after the end of the climax of the music 2025 01:52:12,320 --> 01:52:14,720 Speaker 1: from two thousand and one a Space odysty. 2026 01:52:15,560 --> 01:52:18,719 Speaker 8: Oh, that's the thing we're objecting to from this episode, 2027 01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:19,840 Speaker 8: that's the line. 2028 01:52:20,000 --> 01:52:23,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because it shouldn't a climax. It lost its 2029 01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:27,200 Speaker 2: power in that moment. Considering both like the No. 2030 01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:29,760 Speaker 1: One second James, that was a very good joke. 2031 01:52:30,160 --> 01:52:33,679 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you for seeing me, buddy. 2032 01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:37,599 Speaker 13: Yeah, So considering both like the text at the beginning 2033 01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:39,639 Speaker 13: and then some of the narration that we just heard 2034 01:52:39,640 --> 01:52:41,960 Speaker 13: in the trailer, they're kind of doing this weird like 2035 01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:45,240 Speaker 13: Cali yoga thing, right that is that is a bit 2036 01:52:45,280 --> 01:52:46,639 Speaker 13: of a bit of what's going on here. 2037 01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:50,519 Speaker 1: Because again you can listen to our episodes on Savitri 2038 01:52:50,640 --> 01:52:52,880 Speaker 1: Devi for a little more information about this. But it's 2039 01:52:52,920 --> 01:52:58,639 Speaker 1: like this weird right wing con like quasi apocalyptic concept 2040 01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:01,519 Speaker 1: that evolved during an in between some of the early 2041 01:53:01,600 --> 01:53:05,640 Speaker 1: Nazis and some of the people who are currently behind 2042 01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:08,959 Speaker 1: the present leader of India. It's it's way too esoteric 2043 01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:10,720 Speaker 1: and weird to get into, but it's one of the 2044 01:53:10,760 --> 01:53:11,120 Speaker 1: things that. 2045 01:53:11,160 --> 01:53:15,920 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it's the real fun like it. We're not 2046 01:53:15,920 --> 01:53:17,679 Speaker 2: going to get into it too much. But I think 2047 01:53:18,360 --> 01:53:22,600 Speaker 2: the previous. 2048 01:53:21,160 --> 01:53:23,960 Speaker 1: Wound up adjacent to at Tucker Carlson episode because it's 2049 01:53:24,000 --> 01:53:26,639 Speaker 1: some like weird esoteric Nazi wizard ship. 2050 01:53:27,200 --> 01:53:31,439 Speaker 13: Yes, and that previous November, Joe Rogan posted a Cali 2051 01:53:31,479 --> 01:53:34,759 Speaker 13: Yuga meme which went viral. It's it's about how hard 2052 01:53:34,840 --> 01:53:37,760 Speaker 13: times creates strong men, which create good times, which lead 2053 01:53:37,800 --> 01:53:40,360 Speaker 13: to weak men, which create hard times. It's a fucking 2054 01:53:40,439 --> 01:53:45,320 Speaker 13: silly his, his, his, the h The accompanying text on 2055 01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:49,120 Speaker 13: the Instagram post that that Rogan did said, civilizations move 2056 01:53:49,160 --> 01:53:52,200 Speaker 13: in predictable cycles. We are in the Kali Yuga, the 2057 01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:54,800 Speaker 13: age of conflict. All of the chaos we're seeing right 2058 01:53:54,800 --> 01:54:01,000 Speaker 13: now is predicted in Hinduism thousands of years ago. Rogan 2059 01:54:01,280 --> 01:54:04,000 Speaker 13: was probably just like parroting something that he heard from 2060 01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:07,000 Speaker 13: one of his many Fashy or new ag friends, which, 2061 01:54:07,080 --> 01:54:09,960 Speaker 13: considering Rogan's social circle, that could very well, just be 2062 01:54:10,000 --> 01:54:10,639 Speaker 13: the same person. 2063 01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:13,559 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, one of his fucking sparring buddies is 2064 01:54:13,560 --> 01:54:15,960 Speaker 1: either friends with the Nazi or just stumbled upon a 2065 01:54:16,000 --> 01:54:18,880 Speaker 1: fucking the wrong podcast and then told him that when 2066 01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:22,160 Speaker 1: they were smoking weed. And you know, yes, I mean 2067 01:54:22,160 --> 01:54:26,200 Speaker 1: that's honestly to it's problematic because of his platform, but 2068 01:54:26,200 --> 01:54:29,040 Speaker 1: that's how I learned. Everything about esoterica that I learned 2069 01:54:29,080 --> 01:54:31,240 Speaker 1: when I was in my twenties was some I was 2070 01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:34,120 Speaker 1: smoking weed with some sketchy dude who was going places 2071 01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:35,520 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have been on the internet. 2072 01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:40,360 Speaker 13: So a few months after Rogan posted this meme, we 2073 01:54:40,440 --> 01:54:43,360 Speaker 13: have Tucker Carlson making this whole mini series surrounding this 2074 01:54:43,760 --> 01:54:48,480 Speaker 13: Hard Times Creates Strong Men kind of trend. It's taking 2075 01:54:48,520 --> 01:54:52,920 Speaker 13: cues from the online manosphere, and Tucker posited that weak, 2076 01:54:53,160 --> 01:54:56,680 Speaker 13: unmanly men are leading to the collapse of civilization and 2077 01:54:56,760 --> 01:55:01,080 Speaker 13: a hardening of men is necessary to save it. According 2078 01:55:01,120 --> 01:55:03,080 Speaker 13: to according to Tucker, one of the one of the 2079 01:55:03,120 --> 01:55:06,480 Speaker 13: threats to manhood is a quote unquote total collapse in 2080 01:55:06,520 --> 01:55:11,280 Speaker 13: testosterone levels amongst men in recent years. And the solution 2081 01:55:11,600 --> 01:55:14,800 Speaker 13: goes beyond just your typical like anti soy crusading that 2082 01:55:14,840 --> 01:55:18,760 Speaker 13: Tucker has done in the past. Now, Tucker has turned 2083 01:55:18,800 --> 01:55:24,840 Speaker 13: to the cutting edge science of bromiopathic medicine as advocates. 2084 01:55:25,160 --> 01:55:33,080 Speaker 18: God damn it, as advocated for by a quote unquote 2085 01:55:33,120 --> 01:55:37,960 Speaker 18: fitness professional named Andrew McGovern who touts that infrared light 2086 01:55:38,560 --> 01:55:42,840 Speaker 18: and testical tanning is this disex marketa for plummeting tea 2087 01:55:42,920 --> 01:55:43,560 Speaker 18: levels in men. 2088 01:55:44,080 --> 01:55:46,760 Speaker 4: So obviously half the viewers right now are like, what, 2089 01:55:46,840 --> 01:55:47,920 Speaker 4: that's testical tanning. 2090 01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:48,640 Speaker 2: That's crazy. 2091 01:55:49,640 --> 01:55:53,200 Speaker 4: But my view is, Okay, testosterone levels crash and nobody 2092 01:55:53,240 --> 01:55:57,280 Speaker 4: says anything about it. That's crazy, So why is it 2093 01:55:57,320 --> 01:55:58,520 Speaker 4: crazy to seek solutions? 2094 01:55:58,600 --> 01:56:00,000 Speaker 2: It's not crazy to seek solutions. 2095 01:56:00,000 --> 01:56:02,800 Speaker 7: And I think I was recently exposed to a term 2096 01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:05,560 Speaker 7: called bromeopathy, and I think there's a lot of people 2097 01:56:05,560 --> 01:56:10,839 Speaker 7: out there right now that are don't trust the mainstream information. 2098 01:56:11,560 --> 01:56:15,480 Speaker 13: This TV special is constantly referred to as a documentary, 2099 01:56:16,120 --> 01:56:19,280 Speaker 13: so surely you would expect Tucker to try and like 2100 01:56:19,320 --> 01:56:22,640 Speaker 13: interview scientists or like anyone with expertise on this topic. 2101 01:56:24,360 --> 01:56:30,680 Speaker 13: Of course, not actually not the case. Andrew McGovern are 2102 01:56:30,880 --> 01:56:36,480 Speaker 13: our bromeopathic hero. Works as a personal trader at Lifetime 2103 01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:40,320 Speaker 13: Fitness in Columbus, Ohio, and he hasn't even been a 2104 01:56:40,360 --> 01:56:47,040 Speaker 13: trader for very long. About a decade ago. About a 2105 01:56:47,120 --> 01:56:50,120 Speaker 13: decade ago, he was the manager of an Abercrobie and 2106 01:56:50,160 --> 01:56:51,240 Speaker 13: Fitch store in Miami. 2107 01:56:51,960 --> 01:57:01,160 Speaker 1: Perfect now descriptions from works at the Grumby and Finish store. 2108 01:57:01,400 --> 01:57:03,920 Speaker 2: Wait, but in Miami. 2109 01:57:06,320 --> 01:57:08,200 Speaker 1: Hey, if you want to get trim that's where you 2110 01:57:08,240 --> 01:57:08,960 Speaker 1: get trimmed. 2111 01:57:09,040 --> 01:57:13,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is That type of dude is emerging here. 2112 01:57:13,480 --> 01:57:15,960 Speaker 2: As of twenty seventeen, he was the director of operations 2113 01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:21,960 Speaker 2: for Petland retail stores. 2114 01:57:22,240 --> 01:57:23,400 Speaker 6: He's getting funnier. 2115 01:57:24,080 --> 01:57:27,000 Speaker 2: But this guy's resume is finally amusing. 2116 01:57:27,320 --> 01:57:30,839 Speaker 13: But Tucker, being a competent journalist, did not just interview 2117 01:57:30,840 --> 01:57:34,400 Speaker 13: one person. However, Kid Rock was brought on to be 2118 01:57:34,480 --> 01:57:35,960 Speaker 13: the sole voice of reasons. 2119 01:57:37,000 --> 01:57:39,560 Speaker 1: You know, Garrison, you left, But Kid Rock is the 2120 01:57:39,600 --> 01:57:42,240 Speaker 1: other person. I've gotten prescription drugs from so. 2121 01:57:44,040 --> 01:57:47,280 Speaker 2: Real bastion. In the platonic cave of men stands Kid 2122 01:57:47,360 --> 01:57:50,240 Speaker 2: Rock and a guy from Abercrombie and Fitch. We must 2123 01:57:50,280 --> 01:57:51,360 Speaker 2: only beat their shadows. 2124 01:57:51,720 --> 01:57:56,280 Speaker 16: Dude, stop testicle Danny, come on, I mean, yeah, I 2125 01:57:56,320 --> 01:58:02,280 Speaker 16: haven't heard anything, Bobby. I'm starting a punk rock band 2126 01:58:02,320 --> 01:58:03,840 Speaker 16: and it's called Testical Tanning. 2127 01:58:03,880 --> 01:58:04,680 Speaker 2: That's the end of it. 2128 01:58:04,800 --> 01:58:07,360 Speaker 4: I mean, don't you think at this point, when so 2129 01:58:07,480 --> 01:58:10,280 Speaker 4: many of the therapies, the paths they've told us to take, 2130 01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:12,360 Speaker 4: have turned out to be dead ends that have really 2131 01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:16,920 Speaker 4: hurt people, why wouldn't open minded people seek new solutions. 2132 01:58:17,800 --> 01:58:19,680 Speaker 2: I don't know what the hell is going on in 2133 01:58:19,680 --> 01:58:22,000 Speaker 2: this world. I'm not even sure if I understood that question. 2134 01:58:22,080 --> 01:58:24,560 Speaker 2: But some days I just want to stop this planet, 2135 01:58:24,640 --> 01:58:25,240 Speaker 2: let me off. 2136 01:58:25,400 --> 01:58:29,520 Speaker 13: Like Kid Rock was not did not buy into testical 2137 01:58:29,560 --> 01:58:31,200 Speaker 13: tanning the same way Tucker seems to. 2138 01:58:31,880 --> 01:58:39,280 Speaker 1: How, oh God is kid. 2139 01:58:35,560 --> 01:58:36,120 Speaker 8: What I said? 2140 01:58:36,320 --> 01:58:38,200 Speaker 2: I said he was brought out to be the sole 2141 01:58:39,720 --> 01:58:41,640 Speaker 2: but we thought you were joking because it's Kid. 2142 01:58:42,040 --> 01:58:42,760 Speaker 1: You were joking. 2143 01:58:44,200 --> 01:58:50,200 Speaker 2: No, he's the only kid Rock stands with science. 2144 01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:53,960 Speaker 1: It is indeed sweet Home, Alabama all summer long. 2145 01:58:55,040 --> 01:58:58,360 Speaker 13: Tucker was not the first person to advocate for testicular 2146 01:58:58,400 --> 01:59:01,760 Speaker 13: tanning as the solution to an allegedly problematic dip in 2147 01:59:01,840 --> 01:59:04,800 Speaker 13: testosterone levels. Dating back to twenty fifteen, you can find 2148 01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:09,360 Speaker 13: articles online such as quote former MLB player Gabe Kapler 2149 01:59:09,440 --> 01:59:11,880 Speaker 13: says men who want to get stronger should tan their 2150 01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:15,720 Speaker 13: testicles from complex and quote I put a giant red 2151 01:59:15,840 --> 01:59:18,800 Speaker 13: light on my balls to triple white testosterone levels from 2152 01:59:18,840 --> 01:59:20,160 Speaker 13: a Men's Health twenty seventeen. 2153 01:59:20,440 --> 01:59:22,760 Speaker 2: Is that written by Ben Greenfield Benny Johns because he 2154 01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:27,080 Speaker 2: normally pops up with these things, which one the Men's 2155 01:59:27,120 --> 01:59:27,800 Speaker 2: health one. 2156 01:59:28,000 --> 01:59:29,720 Speaker 13: Me Let me see a guy who injected to have 2157 01:59:29,840 --> 01:59:32,040 Speaker 13: a dick to make it bigger. I have it in 2158 01:59:32,040 --> 01:59:34,760 Speaker 13: my show notes here. This was written by someone named 2159 01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:35,760 Speaker 13: Ben Greenfield. 2160 01:59:38,880 --> 01:59:42,360 Speaker 2: Pot this balland has one games. 2161 01:59:42,920 --> 01:59:45,600 Speaker 1: So proud of you today, buddy. 2162 01:59:44,920 --> 01:59:47,600 Speaker 2: I'm so happy we have you on our team. 2163 01:59:47,840 --> 01:59:51,800 Speaker 1: Dates are you taking? Are you taking performance enhancing drugs? 2164 01:59:51,800 --> 01:59:52,800 Speaker 1: For this podcast? 2165 01:59:54,000 --> 01:59:58,760 Speaker 2: Should be Robert I'm not. This is so funny. We 2166 01:59:58,920 --> 02:00:02,240 Speaker 2: have stepped into a gold mind of contact with Ben Greenfield, 2167 02:00:02,240 --> 02:00:04,560 Speaker 2: the guy who injected his own dick with stem cells 2168 02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:10,000 Speaker 2: to make it bigger. That's so funny. Then you compel you. 2169 02:00:10,080 --> 02:00:12,240 Speaker 2: If you have any free time in your day, just 2170 02:00:12,320 --> 02:00:16,160 Speaker 2: google Ben Greenfield penis. There will be several articles. It's 2171 02:00:16,160 --> 02:00:21,120 Speaker 2: supposedly reptible outlets. It will just fucking make you unwell. Well, 2172 02:00:21,280 --> 02:00:22,520 Speaker 2: that's that is great to hear it. 2173 02:00:22,600 --> 02:00:25,560 Speaker 13: But despite not being the first person to talk about 2174 02:00:25,560 --> 02:00:30,120 Speaker 13: testicular tanning, Tucker was certainly the most impactful. After the 2175 02:00:30,160 --> 02:00:34,200 Speaker 13: airing of the End of Men testicular tanning showed a 2176 02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:37,880 Speaker 13: seven thousand increase in relative search interest on Google and 2177 02:00:39,160 --> 02:00:42,880 Speaker 13: thirty five thousand increase in tweets on the topic. Now, 2178 02:00:42,960 --> 02:00:45,680 Speaker 13: surely some of these things are stuff like making fun 2179 02:00:45,720 --> 02:00:50,000 Speaker 13: of it right some weeks, I'm sure, yeah, but a 2180 02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:51,920 Speaker 13: lot of it also a lot of it's also people 2181 02:00:51,920 --> 02:00:54,800 Speaker 13: who are just talking about it genuinely. To quote a 2182 02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:59,480 Speaker 13: study published in j M I R, a dermatology publication, quote, 2183 02:00:59,520 --> 02:01:03,240 Speaker 13: the promotion of testicular tanning generated significant public interest in 2184 02:01:03,280 --> 02:01:07,000 Speaker 13: an evidence lacking and potentially dangerous health trend. Dermatologists and 2185 02:01:07,040 --> 02:01:09,960 Speaker 13: other healthcare professionals should be aware of these new viral 2186 02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:14,200 Speaker 13: health trends to best consultations and combat health misinformation unquote. 2187 02:01:14,920 --> 02:01:18,839 Speaker 13: So like in terms of actual data, a twenty seventeen 2188 02:01:18,840 --> 02:01:22,440 Speaker 13: meta analysis of studies on sperm counts found that in 2189 02:01:22,480 --> 02:01:26,320 Speaker 13: North America, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand, men's sperm counts 2190 02:01:26,320 --> 02:01:29,920 Speaker 13: have declined by about fifty percent between nineteen seventy three 2191 02:01:30,120 --> 02:01:33,320 Speaker 13: and twenty eleven. Now, these results have not been enough 2192 02:01:33,360 --> 02:01:36,400 Speaker 13: to really cause broad concern unless you're like a right 2193 02:01:36,440 --> 02:01:39,280 Speaker 13: wing influencer for men, because there doesn't really seem to 2194 02:01:39,360 --> 02:01:42,720 Speaker 13: be an equal drop in testosterone levels compared. 2195 02:01:42,400 --> 02:01:45,640 Speaker 1: To previt problems mankind has had on the whole, not 2196 02:01:45,920 --> 02:01:47,600 Speaker 1: enough seamen comshot. 2197 02:01:47,760 --> 02:01:51,200 Speaker 13: It's not one of the yes and like compared to 2198 02:01:51,240 --> 02:01:54,160 Speaker 13: previous decades. There is this maybe like a twenty percent 2199 02:01:54,240 --> 02:01:58,000 Speaker 13: decrease in total testosterone levels amongst adolescent and young adult males, 2200 02:01:58,200 --> 02:02:01,440 Speaker 13: but that's highly fluxtual and it's packed it heavily by diet. 2201 02:02:02,160 --> 02:02:08,080 Speaker 13: It's suspected that pollution environmental degradation are also suspected of 2202 02:02:08,200 --> 02:02:13,720 Speaker 13: being contributing factors, with plastics like a thighlight being known 2203 02:02:13,960 --> 02:02:17,280 Speaker 13: to interfere with the production of hormones like distosterone. But 2204 02:02:17,360 --> 02:02:20,280 Speaker 13: this area of research is still heavily contested. But still 2205 02:02:20,480 --> 02:02:24,000 Speaker 13: that has not stopped fitness YouTubers and conservative influencers from 2206 02:02:24,400 --> 02:02:27,360 Speaker 13: tying this to like the soy boy feminization of men 2207 02:02:27,720 --> 02:02:30,400 Speaker 13: and drumming up panic to grow their social media followings, 2208 02:02:30,480 --> 02:02:34,760 Speaker 13: sell their supplements and advertise affiliate products. The krem Dela 2209 02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:38,320 Speaker 13: creme of red lights for testicular tanning is the Juve 2210 02:02:38,440 --> 02:02:43,960 Speaker 13: Light A Light. Juve is a light therapy panel company 2211 02:02:44,400 --> 02:02:48,520 Speaker 13: which sells these LEDs. They're like this, They're like this 2212 02:02:48,640 --> 02:02:53,240 Speaker 13: upscale wellness brand. The smallest model they have costs over 2213 02:02:53,280 --> 02:02:56,120 Speaker 13: one thousand dollars, with the full body ones going for 2214 02:02:56,200 --> 02:02:57,320 Speaker 13: around ten grand. 2215 02:02:59,120 --> 02:03:01,320 Speaker 2: This is when you know it's a grift. If someone 2216 02:03:01,400 --> 02:03:04,040 Speaker 2: is telling you that they need to sell you sunlight, 2217 02:03:04,400 --> 02:03:06,000 Speaker 2: they are having a fucking laugh. 2218 02:03:06,520 --> 02:03:13,040 Speaker 13: Our friend Ben Greenfield advocates a quote that advocates that 2219 02:03:13,080 --> 02:03:15,120 Speaker 13: you spend the big bucks on juve lest do you 2220 02:03:15,280 --> 02:03:18,040 Speaker 13: quote fry your balls to a crisp with a cheap 2221 02:03:18,120 --> 02:03:18,720 Speaker 13: knock off. 2222 02:03:20,240 --> 02:03:21,680 Speaker 1: You wouldn't want to do that, would you. 2223 02:03:23,880 --> 02:03:26,560 Speaker 2: Wise, Yeah, it seems like it's maybe a bad idea. 2224 02:03:26,880 --> 02:03:29,360 Speaker 1: I can teach you how to how to how to 2225 02:03:29,360 --> 02:03:32,280 Speaker 1: cook your balls safely without spending any money at all. 2226 02:03:32,480 --> 02:03:34,480 Speaker 1: Get a pair of double A batteries, take them right 2227 02:03:34,480 --> 02:03:37,320 Speaker 1: out of your out of your uh, your your your 2228 02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:41,280 Speaker 1: your remote control. You stick the active in in a 2229 02:03:41,280 --> 02:03:43,600 Speaker 1: bottle of water, and then you put your hand on 2230 02:03:43,640 --> 02:03:47,280 Speaker 1: your testicles and you're a it'll it'll complete the circuit 2231 02:03:47,480 --> 02:03:50,840 Speaker 1: and power your testicles up with electricity, which you can 2232 02:03:50,880 --> 02:03:52,560 Speaker 1: then ejaculate instead of come. 2233 02:03:52,920 --> 02:03:54,520 Speaker 2: They'll probably give you superpowers too. 2234 02:03:55,480 --> 02:03:57,080 Speaker 1: Almost certainly, Garrison. 2235 02:03:56,920 --> 02:04:00,280 Speaker 8: Legally, this is not a recommendation to do this. If 2236 02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:02,760 Speaker 8: you do this, that shit's not on us. You did 2237 02:04:02,760 --> 02:04:05,880 Speaker 8: that your olation yet, please do not connect batteries to. 2238 02:04:05,840 --> 02:04:09,800 Speaker 13: You dick to quote that JMR study evaluating the public's 2239 02:04:09,800 --> 02:04:13,000 Speaker 13: interest into secular tanning quote. The interest in this topic 2240 02:04:13,040 --> 02:04:16,200 Speaker 13: may be partially explained by the men's attention and advertising 2241 02:04:16,280 --> 02:04:19,680 Speaker 13: men's of sexual health on hormone replacement or homone enhancing 2242 02:04:19,760 --> 02:04:23,400 Speaker 13: therapies receive in the US. Although subsequent media coverage largely 2243 02:04:23,440 --> 02:04:27,200 Speaker 13: disfavored testicular tanning due to lacking evidence and potential dangers, 2244 02:04:27,520 --> 02:04:30,640 Speaker 13: other health influencers came to defend and encourage the practice 2245 02:04:30,680 --> 02:04:35,720 Speaker 13: of testicular tanning, specifically by using UV light as an unquote. 2246 02:04:35,760 --> 02:04:38,800 Speaker 13: As an example, here is a clip from fitness YouTuber 2247 02:04:39,080 --> 02:04:44,560 Speaker 13: Elliott Hulsey's Strength Camp with one point seven million followers. 2248 02:04:45,120 --> 02:04:50,200 Speaker 19: Blast your balls with sunshine to increase the stosterone. Now, 2249 02:04:50,240 --> 02:04:52,240 Speaker 19: you can drop your draws and let your balls get 2250 02:04:52,320 --> 02:04:54,640 Speaker 19: kissed by the sun, or you can try one of 2251 02:04:54,680 --> 02:04:57,480 Speaker 19: these light panels to roast my nuts and be more manly. 2252 02:04:57,760 --> 02:05:01,200 Speaker 19: Nineteen thirty nine studies suggests that you UV light exposure 2253 02:05:01,280 --> 02:05:05,320 Speaker 19: to your testicles increases testosterone by two hundred percent. If 2254 02:05:05,320 --> 02:05:07,000 Speaker 19: you want to join me in this experiment, you can 2255 02:05:07,040 --> 02:05:09,720 Speaker 19: find one of these bad boys a Hoseyhealth dot com. 2256 02:05:09,760 --> 02:05:12,520 Speaker 19: Then just go to personal labs dot com, get your 2257 02:05:12,520 --> 02:05:16,160 Speaker 19: blood tested, get your testosterone. Then after eight to twelve weeks, 2258 02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:18,520 Speaker 19: check it again and find out if the nut rusting 2259 02:05:18,800 --> 02:05:19,440 Speaker 19: really works. 2260 02:05:20,040 --> 02:05:23,839 Speaker 13: So this whole idea goes back to this one nineteen 2261 02:05:23,960 --> 02:05:26,480 Speaker 13: thirty nine. Studies eighteen thirty nine. 2262 02:05:27,080 --> 02:05:30,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now let's of goot schied to nineteen 2263 02:05:30,320 --> 02:05:30,920 Speaker 2: thirty nine. Man. 2264 02:05:31,080 --> 02:05:33,640 Speaker 13: And if there's one thing I trust, it's science from 2265 02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:34,840 Speaker 13: nineteen thirty nine. 2266 02:05:35,360 --> 02:05:39,320 Speaker 2: Yep, got any comments on or on race in this study. 2267 02:05:39,720 --> 02:05:42,680 Speaker 13: So this study was published in the journal ender Chronology, 2268 02:05:42,920 --> 02:05:46,520 Speaker 13: and it found that frequent UV irritation to the genitals 2269 02:05:46,560 --> 02:05:52,600 Speaker 13: increased urinary and drostererone, a metabolite of testosterone. It increases 2270 02:05:52,680 --> 02:05:55,960 Speaker 13: levels by nearly two hundred percent quote unquote. Now you'll 2271 02:05:55,960 --> 02:05:58,120 Speaker 13: be shocked to learn that there may be problems with 2272 02:05:58,160 --> 02:06:02,600 Speaker 13: this study. Guess how many test subjects were included in 2273 02:06:02,640 --> 02:06:04,160 Speaker 13: this In this study. 2274 02:06:04,240 --> 02:06:07,560 Speaker 2: I'm gonna be generous and say eight. So Mia says eight. 2275 02:06:08,280 --> 02:06:11,680 Speaker 2: James and Green failed just one. One. You say one, Robert, 2276 02:06:12,120 --> 02:06:14,000 Speaker 2: how many? How many do you think you're in the study? 2277 02:06:14,320 --> 02:06:16,919 Speaker 1: Geez I think like seven was sacred to the Nazis. 2278 02:06:16,960 --> 02:06:19,880 Speaker 13: So I'm going to say that five, a grand total 2279 02:06:19,880 --> 02:06:21,320 Speaker 13: of five people are in the study. 2280 02:06:21,520 --> 02:06:23,160 Speaker 2: Wow, I give the too much credit. 2281 02:06:23,600 --> 02:06:26,160 Speaker 1: They had to pick this sacred discordion number. Bullshit. 2282 02:06:26,760 --> 02:06:30,200 Speaker 13: Three of them are fifty four years old and have 2283 02:06:30,440 --> 02:06:32,160 Speaker 13: manic depressive psychosis. 2284 02:06:33,600 --> 02:06:36,680 Speaker 2: The other two are twenty. 2285 02:06:37,320 --> 02:06:42,160 Speaker 1: Honestly not a bad apparently representative sample for Tucker's audience. 2286 02:06:42,440 --> 02:06:44,920 Speaker 2: I was about to say the same thing, is actually 2287 02:06:44,920 --> 02:06:45,760 Speaker 2: who watches his show? 2288 02:06:46,040 --> 02:06:48,400 Speaker 13: The other two are twenty eight and forty five and 2289 02:06:48,520 --> 02:06:53,040 Speaker 13: have a quote psychopathia with depressive features. 2290 02:06:52,600 --> 02:06:56,680 Speaker 2: Which is a very old timey term everyone on Twitter, 2291 02:06:56,720 --> 02:06:57,560 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. 2292 02:06:58,600 --> 02:07:00,880 Speaker 13: But I think what actually and is I think they 2293 02:07:00,880 --> 02:07:03,400 Speaker 13: did this study at an asylum. I just found people 2294 02:07:03,440 --> 02:07:06,800 Speaker 13: with depressive psychosis to do the study on it. It's 2295 02:07:06,840 --> 02:07:10,960 Speaker 13: just these five, these five rand people. No, no individual 2296 02:07:11,000 --> 02:07:13,680 Speaker 13: graft results were produced. It only showed the quote unquote 2297 02:07:13,680 --> 02:07:17,000 Speaker 13: typical reaction and there wasn't even a control group for 2298 02:07:17,080 --> 02:07:25,240 Speaker 13: the study. That not to mention, there's many problems with 2299 02:07:25,280 --> 02:07:27,840 Speaker 13: like measuring distosterone in the first place, because it changes 2300 02:07:27,880 --> 02:07:29,880 Speaker 13: broadly day to day and by age, and it's very 2301 02:07:29,960 --> 02:07:34,520 Speaker 13: kind of unreliable to quote the JMIR study again. Quote 2302 02:07:34,680 --> 02:07:38,120 Speaker 13: Beyond this questionable study, research has shown that exposure to 2303 02:07:38,200 --> 02:07:43,200 Speaker 13: UV radiation may increase sex steroid hormone levels. However, these 2304 02:07:43,200 --> 02:07:46,440 Speaker 13: studies either do not include human participants or do not 2305 02:07:46,480 --> 02:07:50,960 Speaker 13: specifically evaluate UV radiation exposure to the genitals. There is 2306 02:07:51,080 --> 02:07:53,840 Speaker 13: there is not a single other study since then that 2307 02:07:53,920 --> 02:07:57,320 Speaker 13: has done anything resembling like peer reviewed science. 2308 02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:03,240 Speaker 1: You know what why everybody go to go to go 2309 02:08:03,440 --> 02:08:07,480 Speaker 1: fund me, help cool zone determine whether or not testical 2310 02:08:07,520 --> 02:08:10,200 Speaker 1: tanning works and we'll get that control group. 2311 02:08:12,480 --> 02:08:14,240 Speaker 8: Okay, so what my my other question about this, aren't 2312 02:08:14,280 --> 02:08:16,280 Speaker 8: aren't all these people getting fucking ball cancer? 2313 02:08:17,200 --> 02:08:21,040 Speaker 2: We are? We are. Okay, we are about to get 2314 02:08:21,080 --> 02:08:21,400 Speaker 2: to that. 2315 02:08:23,520 --> 02:08:26,040 Speaker 13: Because yes, you may think that shining you for you 2316 02:08:26,160 --> 02:08:28,680 Speaker 13: lights on your balls might have some long term problems. 2317 02:08:28,760 --> 02:08:30,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great, a lot of sound. Sturt's come back 2318 02:08:30,680 --> 02:08:31,600 Speaker 2: to the episode again. 2319 02:08:32,560 --> 02:08:37,240 Speaker 13: So uh Vice interviewed Seth Cohen, a urologist and the 2320 02:08:37,320 --> 02:08:40,000 Speaker 13: director of the sexual Dysfunction Program at n y U 2321 02:08:40,120 --> 02:08:40,760 Speaker 13: Langdon Health. 2322 02:08:41,120 --> 02:08:41,560 Speaker 2: Quote. 2323 02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:43,600 Speaker 13: I'm not aware of any science or data or any 2324 02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:48,080 Speaker 13: journal publications proving that red light therapy improves male testosterone. 2325 02:08:48,160 --> 02:08:51,600 Speaker 13: End quote, we change recommendations on medical therapies based on 2326 02:08:51,640 --> 02:08:55,800 Speaker 13: a double blind, placebo controlled randomized trials, large studies with 2327 02:08:55,840 --> 02:08:59,120 Speaker 13: thousands of patients. That's where you'll find if there's any 2328 02:08:59,280 --> 02:09:03,360 Speaker 13: really cistical significance between red light therapy and a placebo 2329 02:09:03,640 --> 02:09:05,920 Speaker 13: Could these men who underwent red light therapy and came 2330 02:09:05,920 --> 02:09:08,760 Speaker 13: out and felt stronger and more manly, could that have 2331 02:09:08,800 --> 02:09:09,760 Speaker 13: been a placebo effect? 2332 02:09:09,800 --> 02:09:10,520 Speaker 2: Of course it could. 2333 02:09:10,600 --> 02:09:14,280 Speaker 13: Unquote so and as Mia mentioned, we have not really 2334 02:09:14,320 --> 02:09:19,080 Speaker 13: even gotten into the potential dangers yet. Close direct heat 2335 02:09:19,160 --> 02:09:23,320 Speaker 13: to your testicles actually damages sperm count on top of 2336 02:09:23,360 --> 02:09:27,280 Speaker 13: the risk of giving yourself ball cancer by blasting concentrated 2337 02:09:27,360 --> 02:09:29,680 Speaker 13: UV light on your genitals for twenty minutes a day, 2338 02:09:29,720 --> 02:09:32,200 Speaker 13: every day of the week, which is what is recommended 2339 02:09:34,880 --> 02:09:39,720 Speaker 13: to quote that study one last time quote research shows 2340 02:09:39,800 --> 02:09:43,280 Speaker 13: that excessive exposure to UV radiation may lead to higher 2341 02:09:43,360 --> 02:09:47,200 Speaker 13: rates of genital tumor formation and decreased sperm counts, as 2342 02:09:48,040 --> 02:09:52,800 Speaker 13: spermo to genesis is temperature dependent. Thus, given the current 2343 02:09:52,840 --> 02:09:56,440 Speaker 13: obsession with optimizing mail hormone levels, the high cost of 2344 02:09:56,440 --> 02:09:59,880 Speaker 13: red light therapy, and misleading information labeling of testicular tan 2345 02:10:00,360 --> 02:10:03,200 Speaker 13: by prominent influencers, there may be an increase in men 2346 02:10:03,240 --> 02:10:07,959 Speaker 13: exposing themselves to UV radiation and developing associated complications. Unquote 2347 02:10:08,160 --> 02:10:14,000 Speaker 13: great heroic, So guys, almost done here. But man, it's 2348 02:10:14,040 --> 02:10:16,320 Speaker 13: pretty it's pretty funny that all of the worst people 2349 02:10:16,360 --> 02:10:17,800 Speaker 13: you know are going to get ball cancer. 2350 02:10:18,520 --> 02:10:21,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, don't stop them. 2351 02:10:21,480 --> 02:10:23,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, there was a period of time 2352 02:10:23,680 --> 02:10:25,600 Speaker 1: in my life when I said where I will never 2353 02:10:25,760 --> 02:10:29,520 Speaker 1: rich cancer on anybody. But if you are deliberately exposing 2354 02:10:29,520 --> 02:10:31,800 Speaker 1: your testicles for the sun, to the sun and the 2355 02:10:31,840 --> 02:10:36,160 Speaker 1: hope of getting superpowers because of Nazi science, it's okay. 2356 02:10:36,400 --> 02:10:39,200 Speaker 1: It's it's okay, Like I'm not going to warn that. 2357 02:10:39,520 --> 02:10:42,440 Speaker 2: To be fair, the nineteen thirty nine study was from 2358 02:10:42,760 --> 02:10:46,800 Speaker 2: the United States, so it. 2359 02:10:46,280 --> 02:10:48,640 Speaker 1: Be talking about the other Nazi science. 2360 02:10:50,360 --> 02:10:55,800 Speaker 13: Yes, yeah, yeah, well yeah, And I think I think 2361 02:10:56,120 --> 02:10:58,520 Speaker 13: a part of this whole narrative of like the total 2362 02:10:58,560 --> 02:11:02,320 Speaker 13: collapse of men's to stosterone levels, as as Tucker puts it, man, 2363 02:11:02,400 --> 02:11:03,520 Speaker 13: I fucking wish. 2364 02:11:03,840 --> 02:11:05,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so much easier. 2365 02:11:06,000 --> 02:11:08,400 Speaker 13: But I think this is more about men in power 2366 02:11:08,720 --> 02:11:13,080 Speaker 13: feeling that their position of assumed superiority is being threatened. Really, 2367 02:11:13,160 --> 02:11:16,080 Speaker 13: all of our quack science and conspiracy theory stories today 2368 02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:20,040 Speaker 13: all revolve around this like subliminal dog whistle. It's no 2369 02:11:20,120 --> 02:11:23,360 Speaker 13: mistake that Tucker titled his program the End of Men. 2370 02:11:23,840 --> 02:11:25,800 Speaker 13: In all the stories we're covering today, it is the 2371 02:11:25,800 --> 02:11:29,160 Speaker 13: fear of emasculation that is the hook used to drum 2372 02:11:29,200 --> 02:11:32,800 Speaker 13: up fear and anger about how liberal feminism is eroding manhood. 2373 02:11:33,240 --> 02:11:36,960 Speaker 13: It targets some of young men's sexual insecurities while promoting 2374 02:11:36,960 --> 02:11:40,280 Speaker 13: this like anti woke return to the old ways of 2375 02:11:40,320 --> 02:11:41,400 Speaker 13: rugged masculinity. 2376 02:11:42,000 --> 02:11:44,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I might add, because I think you're missing one 2377 02:11:45,000 --> 02:11:48,120 Speaker 1: aspect of it. I think you're identifying what he's signaling 2378 02:11:48,160 --> 02:11:50,320 Speaker 1: to his listeners and what they get out of it. 2379 02:11:50,960 --> 02:11:53,240 Speaker 1: But I also think that what he and the other 2380 02:11:53,280 --> 02:11:55,600 Speaker 1: folks who are kind of in positions of power and 2381 02:11:55,720 --> 02:11:58,680 Speaker 1: influence in the right get out of this because they're 2382 02:11:58,680 --> 02:12:01,840 Speaker 1: not they don't believe this, they're not actually motivated by that. 2383 02:12:02,160 --> 02:12:05,080 Speaker 1: Now what this is, and because we do not know 2384 02:12:05,120 --> 02:12:09,320 Speaker 1: specifically why, like testosterone rates, maybe lower white sperm counts 2385 02:12:09,360 --> 02:12:11,400 Speaker 1: are definitely lower, but it likely has to do with 2386 02:12:11,520 --> 02:12:16,440 Speaker 1: a massive variety of industrial pollutants in the environment, and 2387 02:12:16,600 --> 02:12:22,080 Speaker 1: with the fact that industrial agriculture and the process nature 2388 02:12:22,080 --> 02:12:23,680 Speaker 1: of a lot of our foods is having a negative 2389 02:12:23,680 --> 02:12:27,920 Speaker 1: impact on all these things, like it's consequences of capitalism, right, 2390 02:12:28,360 --> 02:12:31,760 Speaker 1: and because the consequences are getting increasingly hard to ignore, 2391 02:12:32,040 --> 02:12:34,840 Speaker 1: the thing that people like that need to do is 2392 02:12:34,960 --> 02:12:37,960 Speaker 1: find either a cure for them or another way to 2393 02:12:37,960 --> 02:12:40,160 Speaker 1: blame or another thing to blame them on. 2394 02:12:40,280 --> 02:12:40,440 Speaker 6: Right. 2395 02:12:40,480 --> 02:12:43,640 Speaker 1: And so if the aspect the things that are horribly 2396 02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:47,520 Speaker 1: unhealthy about the society that we have built is causing 2397 02:12:47,560 --> 02:12:52,280 Speaker 1: men to suffer consequences in their bodies, the thing to 2398 02:12:52,360 --> 02:12:54,600 Speaker 1: do on the right is to blame that shit on 2399 02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:58,280 Speaker 1: the liberals and masculating men. And the solution is whatever 2400 02:12:58,360 --> 02:13:00,360 Speaker 1: kind of shit we can sell you, right, Like, that's 2401 02:13:00,400 --> 02:13:03,800 Speaker 1: what's going on here, that's the motivation, and it happens 2402 02:13:03,840 --> 02:13:07,200 Speaker 1: outside of like manshit too, Like that's all the right 2403 02:13:07,240 --> 02:13:11,960 Speaker 1: has anymore, Like their economic theories have been proven disastrously wrong. 2404 02:13:12,360 --> 02:13:15,879 Speaker 1: They have no actual ability to govern in a meaningful 2405 02:13:15,920 --> 02:13:18,000 Speaker 1: way other than by causing harm to people. So it's 2406 02:13:18,160 --> 02:13:21,480 Speaker 1: entirely about taking the consequences of the world that they 2407 02:13:21,520 --> 02:13:24,880 Speaker 1: advocate and blaming them on someone else and selling you 2408 02:13:24,960 --> 02:13:26,200 Speaker 1: snake oil to deal with it. 2409 02:13:27,240 --> 02:13:30,800 Speaker 13: Yeah, exactly, and so is that is most of the 2410 02:13:31,920 --> 02:13:35,160 Speaker 13: of the Testicular Tanning Fund that I got into. 2411 02:13:35,880 --> 02:13:39,040 Speaker 2: We haven't covered all the things that bank Greenfelt did 2412 02:13:39,040 --> 02:13:40,600 Speaker 2: to his dact in twenty seventeen. 2413 02:13:41,080 --> 02:13:43,600 Speaker 1: We'll get back on this subject, but it is time 2414 02:13:43,640 --> 02:13:45,720 Speaker 1: for us to end. This is already over an hour, 2415 02:13:46,480 --> 02:13:48,560 Speaker 1: so I want to leave you all, all of you, 2416 02:13:48,680 --> 02:13:50,320 Speaker 1: all of you beautiful. First, I want to thank all 2417 02:13:50,320 --> 02:13:53,120 Speaker 1: of our beautiful correspondence for their research, and I want 2418 02:13:53,160 --> 02:13:55,640 Speaker 1: to leave all of you with this simple piece of advice. 2419 02:13:56,000 --> 02:13:59,879 Speaker 1: If you feel like your testicles aren't getting enough solar radiation, 2420 02:14:00,440 --> 02:14:04,720 Speaker 1: simply purchase a glass cutter in an old microwave, cut 2421 02:14:04,760 --> 02:14:08,240 Speaker 1: a circular hole in the microwave, and you bag it 2422 02:14:08,320 --> 02:14:12,200 Speaker 1: while it's on. You'll be okay. That is our legally 2423 02:14:12,280 --> 02:14:29,879 Speaker 1: binding health advice. That's the end of the episode. Welcome 2424 02:14:29,920 --> 02:14:32,920 Speaker 1: back to It could happen here the podcast. That's happening 2425 02:14:33,000 --> 02:14:35,720 Speaker 1: here in your ear. And one of the things that 2426 02:14:35,760 --> 02:14:41,000 Speaker 1: we love talking about here is a critical ingredient towards 2427 02:14:41,080 --> 02:14:46,320 Speaker 1: creeping authoritarianism, towards growing corporate control and surveillance over all 2428 02:14:46,320 --> 02:14:49,280 Speaker 1: of our lives, which is of course technology that makes 2429 02:14:49,320 --> 02:14:53,160 Speaker 1: it even easier to monitor you than it already is. 2430 02:14:53,280 --> 02:14:56,840 Speaker 1: We're not talking primarily about like the government monitoring you 2431 02:14:56,960 --> 02:14:59,120 Speaker 1: because they can, you know, do stuff like just pull 2432 02:14:59,160 --> 02:15:01,760 Speaker 1: your phone data from a uh you know what which 2433 02:15:01,800 --> 02:15:04,440 Speaker 1: cell towers is pinged. We're talking about the kind of 2434 02:15:04,440 --> 02:15:08,520 Speaker 1: stuff that allows basically whoever can get an app on 2435 02:15:08,560 --> 02:15:12,600 Speaker 1: your phone to track and stalk you. And uh, yeah, 2436 02:15:12,640 --> 02:15:15,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna first introduce Mia Wong Miya. Welcome to the 2437 02:15:16,000 --> 02:15:17,320 Speaker 1: show that you also host. 2438 02:15:17,920 --> 02:15:19,640 Speaker 2: Yes, I'm here. 2439 02:15:20,200 --> 02:15:21,920 Speaker 1: So what are we what are we talking about today? 2440 02:15:21,920 --> 02:15:23,400 Speaker 1: And who are we talking with? 2441 02:15:24,640 --> 02:15:24,880 Speaker 20: Yeah? 2442 02:15:24,920 --> 02:15:27,240 Speaker 8: So we are talking about stalker wear, which is the 2443 02:15:27,280 --> 02:15:30,120 Speaker 8: sort of broad name for the category of software that 2444 02:15:30,200 --> 02:15:33,320 Speaker 8: Robert's been talking about. And we are talking about someone 2445 02:15:33,600 --> 02:15:39,920 Speaker 8: who hacked well a stalker where stalker Yeah, one of 2446 02:15:39,920 --> 02:15:43,800 Speaker 8: the stockerware companies my arison Crime, the Fame Hacker, the 2447 02:15:43,840 --> 02:15:47,040 Speaker 8: No Fly List, yed returning guests, always happy to. 2448 02:15:46,960 --> 02:15:53,320 Speaker 6: Have you on, Yeah, always happy to be on. Yeah. 2449 02:15:53,360 --> 02:15:57,600 Speaker 8: So I think I think, I don't know. I think 2450 02:15:57,600 --> 02:16:01,360 Speaker 8: there's a real tendency among and I see this among 2451 02:16:01,480 --> 02:16:04,360 Speaker 8: leftists a lot, for kind of good reasons and kind 2452 02:16:04,360 --> 02:16:09,600 Speaker 8: of not good reasons, to really only focus on state 2453 02:16:09,760 --> 02:16:14,160 Speaker 8: and like large corporate actors in terms of surveillance. And 2454 02:16:14,560 --> 02:16:19,920 Speaker 8: that's a mistake. Yeah, totally yeah, and so I guess 2455 02:16:19,920 --> 02:16:21,600 Speaker 8: I guess the place where I want to start before 2456 02:16:21,640 --> 02:16:24,560 Speaker 8: we get into the specific company that you do do. 2457 02:16:24,880 --> 02:16:26,160 Speaker 1: Is it still called owned? 2458 02:16:27,120 --> 02:16:27,560 Speaker 2: I kin't. 2459 02:16:27,920 --> 02:16:31,400 Speaker 6: It's fine to call it owned or pond or whatever. 2460 02:16:32,080 --> 02:16:34,400 Speaker 6: I still do that sometimes people get confused. 2461 02:16:34,840 --> 02:16:37,440 Speaker 8: But yeah, yeah, But before we get into that, I 2462 02:16:37,440 --> 02:16:39,320 Speaker 8: want to I want to ask you a bit because 2463 02:16:39,320 --> 02:16:42,360 Speaker 8: you've done a lot of sort of I guess you 2464 02:16:42,400 --> 02:16:46,360 Speaker 8: could call it research, both actual research wise and then 2465 02:16:46,560 --> 02:16:50,000 Speaker 8: in terms of poking around their servers. 2466 02:16:50,200 --> 02:16:53,600 Speaker 6: Research and journalism and whatever you want to call it. 2467 02:16:53,680 --> 02:16:58,280 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, So I wanted to just start off by 2468 02:16:58,480 --> 02:17:00,480 Speaker 8: asking if you can give sort of like a brief 2469 02:17:00,680 --> 02:17:02,440 Speaker 8: summary of what stalkerwaar is. 2470 02:17:04,000 --> 02:17:04,200 Speaker 19: Yeah. 2471 02:17:04,280 --> 02:17:08,440 Speaker 6: So stalkerware, like as a category, encompasses like a number 2472 02:17:08,480 --> 02:17:10,720 Speaker 6: of different types of apps. Most of them, like on 2473 02:17:10,800 --> 02:17:14,920 Speaker 6: the service, advertise themselves as like parental control software, which is. 2474 02:17:14,920 --> 02:17:16,000 Speaker 2: Already bad enough. 2475 02:17:16,720 --> 02:17:19,360 Speaker 6: Just to be clear that there's like advertised for like 2476 02:17:19,440 --> 02:17:22,400 Speaker 6: spying on your children's phone, like seeing their location in 2477 02:17:22,440 --> 02:17:26,440 Speaker 6: real time, seeing their messages that they receive, any photo 2478 02:17:26,520 --> 02:17:30,080 Speaker 6: they take. Ostensibly this is to like prevent bullying and 2479 02:17:30,280 --> 02:17:33,120 Speaker 6: help with them when they get depressed because they don't 2480 02:17:33,160 --> 02:17:36,160 Speaker 6: trust you. And talk to you for whatever reason. But 2481 02:17:36,800 --> 02:17:40,119 Speaker 6: obviously a lot of these are then furthermore, because that's 2482 02:17:40,320 --> 02:17:42,920 Speaker 6: like that, sure, that's a like target audience, that's a 2483 02:17:42,920 --> 02:17:45,760 Speaker 6: demographic you can advertise too. But then there's this even 2484 02:17:45,800 --> 02:17:50,840 Speaker 6: bigger potential target demographic of people who are insecure in 2485 02:17:50,879 --> 02:17:54,120 Speaker 6: their relationship, mostly men, not only men, but who are 2486 02:17:54,160 --> 02:17:56,600 Speaker 6: then solved this idea that they can use software like 2487 02:17:56,640 --> 02:17:59,720 Speaker 6: this for stalking their partner, for finding out if they 2488 02:17:59,720 --> 02:18:02,720 Speaker 6: are eating on you, things like that, which is obviously 2489 02:18:02,720 --> 02:18:05,320 Speaker 6: an even bigger problem, which once again not to discount 2490 02:18:05,320 --> 02:18:08,880 Speaker 6: the problems that's spying on your children's already like bad enough, 2491 02:18:09,040 --> 02:18:11,160 Speaker 6: But yeah, this lead, this leads to this whole like 2492 02:18:11,240 --> 02:18:16,480 Speaker 6: big industry of these apps being used by partners against 2493 02:18:16,560 --> 02:18:19,560 Speaker 6: each other, like also just by people, like against anyone 2494 02:18:19,640 --> 02:18:23,000 Speaker 6: in the in their surroundings that they suspect might be 2495 02:18:23,160 --> 02:18:27,400 Speaker 6: doing something shady, might be like talking behind their backs. 2496 02:18:27,760 --> 02:18:30,240 Speaker 6: It often kind of turns into like it obviously turns 2497 02:18:30,280 --> 02:18:33,039 Speaker 6: into this obsessive thing, especially if you solve this idea 2498 02:18:33,120 --> 02:18:36,680 Speaker 6: that this this app can magically solve like interpersonal issues 2499 02:18:36,720 --> 02:18:39,440 Speaker 6: like with anything that sells you this magic idea of 2500 02:18:39,480 --> 02:18:42,200 Speaker 6: being able to solve any problem that these people start 2501 02:18:42,280 --> 02:18:46,200 Speaker 6: kind of spying on everyone in their like circles. To 2502 02:18:46,640 --> 02:18:48,800 Speaker 6: some of them like not everyone. Most like a lot 2503 02:18:48,800 --> 02:18:51,080 Speaker 6: of people only spying like their partner or like their 2504 02:18:51,160 --> 02:18:54,000 Speaker 6: child or whatever. But it often like spirals out of 2505 02:18:54,040 --> 02:18:57,600 Speaker 6: control into this like controlling everyone in their surroundings, knowing 2506 02:18:57,640 --> 02:18:59,920 Speaker 6: what everyone is up to where they are, and spend 2507 02:19:00,240 --> 02:19:02,360 Speaker 6: like hundreds of dollars a month on doing so. 2508 02:19:03,040 --> 02:19:05,640 Speaker 2: And yeah, that's pretty fucked up if you ask me. 2509 02:19:06,080 --> 02:19:09,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one of the things that's interesting too. It's 2510 02:19:09,160 --> 02:19:11,640 Speaker 1: also in a lot of cases illegal. This is going 2511 02:19:11,680 --> 02:19:13,720 Speaker 1: to vary, you know, from country to country, in state 2512 02:19:13,760 --> 02:19:16,400 Speaker 1: to state, but in the US there are states like California, 2513 02:19:16,440 --> 02:19:18,640 Speaker 1: which gets pointed out in the very good tech Crunch 2514 02:19:18,720 --> 02:19:22,959 Speaker 1: investigation on truth Spy, where there are really strict laws 2515 02:19:23,000 --> 02:19:24,880 Speaker 1: that journalists like you have to abide bias to when 2516 02:19:24,959 --> 02:19:28,520 Speaker 1: you can record someone that these these apps absolutely break. 2517 02:19:29,080 --> 02:19:31,520 Speaker 6: Yes, it's specifically a thing that doesn't. Most of these 2518 02:19:31,520 --> 02:19:33,560 Speaker 6: app will have like a disclaimer at the bond that 2519 02:19:33,600 --> 02:19:36,120 Speaker 6: it is like this might be legal in your jurisdiction 2520 02:19:36,440 --> 02:19:39,520 Speaker 6: and please ask for consent before doing this, And then 2521 02:19:39,520 --> 02:19:41,560 Speaker 6: they have lots of tutorials on how to install this 2522 02:19:41,640 --> 02:19:45,039 Speaker 6: in someone's device with out there. Yeah, but it's like 2523 02:19:45,120 --> 02:19:47,560 Speaker 6: always like a we do not take andy like we 2524 02:19:47,720 --> 02:19:50,520 Speaker 6: we it's not our fault if you break the law basically, 2525 02:19:50,640 --> 02:19:53,680 Speaker 6: which obviously, like it's so far not a lot of 2526 02:19:53,680 --> 02:19:56,040 Speaker 6: this has been challenged in court, but I don't think 2527 02:19:56,080 --> 02:20:00,520 Speaker 6: this would hold up too long. But I think just 2528 02:20:00,600 --> 02:20:02,920 Speaker 6: saying we make a product to do crimes with, if 2529 02:20:02,959 --> 02:20:04,720 Speaker 6: you do crimes of it, it's not I mean, it 2530 02:20:04,760 --> 02:20:07,959 Speaker 6: works for the gun industry, so yeah. 2531 02:20:08,360 --> 02:20:11,240 Speaker 1: The difference is that, like the with the gun industry, 2532 02:20:11,280 --> 02:20:13,680 Speaker 1: it's a product where there is a legal and an illegal, 2533 02:20:14,160 --> 02:20:15,800 Speaker 1: like clear way to do it. 2534 02:20:16,160 --> 02:20:18,240 Speaker 6: The thing with Stocker we are as well is that 2535 02:20:18,360 --> 02:20:20,240 Speaker 6: like a lot of them will also explicitly say the 2536 02:20:20,280 --> 02:20:22,959 Speaker 6: only real use of this we allow you to to 2537 02:20:23,200 --> 02:20:26,520 Speaker 6: use it for is to surveill your child, which unfortunately 2538 02:20:26,760 --> 02:20:30,080 Speaker 6: is legal in most jurisdictions because children are property of 2539 02:20:30,160 --> 02:20:30,680 Speaker 6: their parents. 2540 02:20:31,160 --> 02:20:33,200 Speaker 2: Yeah quo, it's because I do not agree with that. 2541 02:20:33,320 --> 02:20:37,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's one of those things where people using it, 2542 02:20:37,080 --> 02:20:39,959 Speaker 1: like someone installing an app on their exes or their 2543 02:20:40,040 --> 02:20:44,600 Speaker 1: their partner's phone or whatever without consent, could very easily 2544 02:20:44,959 --> 02:20:47,879 Speaker 1: would lose any court case, whether or not the company 2545 02:20:47,920 --> 02:20:50,199 Speaker 1: would get in trouble. I think is going to rely 2546 02:20:50,320 --> 02:20:52,959 Speaker 1: a lot on the stuff the videos they're posting about, 2547 02:20:52,959 --> 02:20:54,880 Speaker 1: like how to put how to get these apps on 2548 02:20:54,920 --> 02:20:57,240 Speaker 1: people's phones without them knowing, but like they do have 2549 02:20:57,280 --> 02:21:00,039 Speaker 1: that out with like no, it's just for surveilling children. 2550 02:21:00,120 --> 02:21:02,880 Speaker 6: Is green for anyone else you need consent or whatever. 2551 02:21:02,920 --> 02:21:04,720 Speaker 6: But I think it is important, yeah, to point this 2552 02:21:04,800 --> 02:21:07,600 Speaker 6: out very early for anyone who's listening to this because 2553 02:21:07,640 --> 02:21:10,520 Speaker 6: they think they might have stock Aware on their phones, 2554 02:21:10,560 --> 02:21:12,720 Speaker 6: or because they know they have stock Aware on their phones. 2555 02:21:13,040 --> 02:21:15,360 Speaker 6: You can use this in a domestic abuse case. This 2556 02:21:15,640 --> 02:21:19,240 Speaker 6: will immediately this is explicit proof that abuse is happening 2557 02:21:19,520 --> 02:21:22,440 Speaker 6: and no matter anything else, because like that's the thing 2558 02:21:22,640 --> 02:21:25,480 Speaker 6: generally with domestic abuse cases, it's really hard to prove 2559 02:21:25,520 --> 02:21:30,400 Speaker 6: abuses happening. Stalkerware and any other type of spying device 2560 02:21:30,480 --> 02:21:33,920 Speaker 6: like also physical GPS device trackers and stuff that is 2561 02:21:33,959 --> 02:21:37,680 Speaker 6: immediate proof that there is a there's controlling behavior going on, 2562 02:21:38,280 --> 02:21:40,800 Speaker 6: that you are being spined on. This it cannot only 2563 02:21:40,879 --> 02:21:44,600 Speaker 6: be used and it is explicit admissible evidence. This is 2564 02:21:44,600 --> 02:21:48,560 Speaker 6: also usually like makes cases worse, like not for you, 2565 02:21:48,640 --> 02:21:53,600 Speaker 6: like it just yeah, it like can potentially add charges 2566 02:21:53,640 --> 02:21:55,959 Speaker 6: and make it more serious, and that it can help 2567 02:21:56,000 --> 02:21:59,920 Speaker 6: making cops give a shit about like abuse, which yeah, 2568 02:22:00,200 --> 02:22:02,480 Speaker 6: I hate that I need to say that, but yeah, 2569 02:22:02,640 --> 02:22:05,400 Speaker 6: it's like it makes it more serious because there's like 2570 02:22:05,480 --> 02:22:06,480 Speaker 6: spyware and whatever. 2571 02:22:06,560 --> 02:22:08,920 Speaker 1: It's easy evidence first off, like you can prove they're 2572 02:22:08,959 --> 02:22:10,880 Speaker 1: spying on you, and second, if you are in one 2573 02:22:10,920 --> 02:22:13,280 Speaker 1: of the states where that violates the law, then you 2574 02:22:13,320 --> 02:22:16,240 Speaker 1: can immediately say this person is breaking the law like 2575 02:22:16,760 --> 02:22:18,560 Speaker 1: this is we don't have to debate whether or not 2576 02:22:18,680 --> 02:22:20,320 Speaker 1: they've they've crossed the line. 2577 02:22:20,959 --> 02:22:23,680 Speaker 6: Yeah, and even if it doesn't directly break the law 2578 02:22:23,760 --> 02:22:26,600 Speaker 6: to spy on someone on a partner like it, depending 2579 02:22:26,640 --> 02:22:28,560 Speaker 6: on the on the on the region, it can be 2580 02:22:28,680 --> 02:22:31,040 Speaker 6: kind of a hazy like thing, especially if it's a 2581 02:22:31,080 --> 02:22:33,840 Speaker 6: device you might co own, if it's like a state 2582 02:22:33,879 --> 02:22:36,280 Speaker 6: where you were with like cod possession or whatever. In 2583 02:22:36,280 --> 02:22:38,560 Speaker 6: the US, I do not know US law very much 2584 02:22:38,560 --> 02:22:41,280 Speaker 6: around this, but yeah, there's like laws like that. But 2585 02:22:41,400 --> 02:22:43,920 Speaker 6: usually still the fact that you're being spied on can 2586 02:22:43,920 --> 02:22:46,920 Speaker 6: be used as proof for other abuse things you might 2587 02:22:46,959 --> 02:22:50,320 Speaker 6: be alleging because it's like hard proof that something is happening. 2588 02:22:50,520 --> 02:22:54,520 Speaker 6: And also usually these companies will somewhat have to respond 2589 02:22:54,520 --> 02:22:56,240 Speaker 6: to some point us, so they will have to give 2590 02:22:56,240 --> 02:22:58,960 Speaker 6: out like who the account on there is behind like 2591 02:22:59,040 --> 02:23:01,680 Speaker 6: the spine on your phone. For some of them, we 2592 02:23:01,720 --> 02:23:04,119 Speaker 6: can also there's also tools that help you find out 2593 02:23:04,120 --> 02:23:07,039 Speaker 6: who is spying on you, or there's like someone with 2594 02:23:07,160 --> 02:23:08,400 Speaker 6: forensic background can. 2595 02:23:08,280 --> 02:23:12,280 Speaker 1: Help, yeah, and I think people. One thing we should 2596 02:23:12,320 --> 02:23:14,879 Speaker 1: note is that if you're kind of curious, has my 2597 02:23:15,080 --> 02:23:18,200 Speaker 1: device been infected by some of these tools, the one 2598 02:23:18,200 --> 02:23:20,959 Speaker 1: that we've been talking about most truth spy. If you 2599 02:23:21,080 --> 02:23:23,279 Speaker 1: go to that tech Crunch article. 2600 02:23:23,360 --> 02:23:25,640 Speaker 6: Or to my article that also has a link yet. 2601 02:23:25,600 --> 02:23:28,199 Speaker 1: Or to you to your article on your website, there's 2602 02:23:28,400 --> 02:23:30,400 Speaker 1: a tool you can use where you it'll tell you 2603 02:23:30,440 --> 02:23:34,840 Speaker 1: how to get your IMSI I think, I am I yeah, 2604 02:23:35,360 --> 02:23:37,080 Speaker 1: which you just dial a thing on your phone and 2605 02:23:37,320 --> 02:23:40,359 Speaker 1: it gives you that number. It's basically how you identify 2606 02:23:40,600 --> 02:23:43,879 Speaker 1: specific bones and you plug that in. It will let 2607 02:23:43,879 --> 02:23:46,680 Speaker 1: you know if your device has been compromised. 2608 02:23:46,640 --> 02:23:49,720 Speaker 6: Now like December last year, up until there is the 2609 02:23:49,800 --> 02:23:52,920 Speaker 6: data and if you yeah, it can pretty much tell 2610 02:23:52,920 --> 02:23:55,640 Speaker 6: you if you've been spying on using this specific tool 2611 02:23:55,720 --> 02:23:58,240 Speaker 6: until then. For other stuff, there's also guides, usually on 2612 02:23:58,320 --> 02:24:01,560 Speaker 6: tech Crunch and otherwise also on Stop stockerwear dot ARC, 2613 02:24:01,640 --> 02:24:04,480 Speaker 6: which is the US coalition against stocker where and also 2614 02:24:04,560 --> 02:24:07,560 Speaker 6: just generally, I think a lot of like more local 2615 02:24:08,360 --> 02:24:11,520 Speaker 6: anti stocking, anti abuse works are not as informed yet 2616 02:24:11,560 --> 02:24:13,959 Speaker 6: as they should be, but there's still a good like 2617 02:24:14,080 --> 02:24:16,680 Speaker 6: point also to reach out to or like. 2618 02:24:16,800 --> 02:24:20,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. One of my questions about truth Spy that 2619 02:24:20,520 --> 02:24:23,280 Speaker 1: I'm hoping you can answer is, I know that you 2620 02:24:23,440 --> 02:24:28,000 Speaker 1: can like text messages get transferred via it, your call records, 2621 02:24:28,040 --> 02:24:30,400 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff, get and who you were calling. 2622 02:24:30,800 --> 02:24:33,959 Speaker 1: Does that include messages for like encrypted apps like Signal 2623 02:24:34,160 --> 02:24:35,879 Speaker 1: or is that not accessible through this? 2624 02:24:36,040 --> 02:24:38,959 Speaker 6: It depends, Like for some of these, it will like 2625 02:24:39,080 --> 02:24:42,080 Speaker 6: get signal messages, what's the messages and everything, generally by 2626 02:24:42,080 --> 02:24:46,760 Speaker 6: reading the notification content because like from notifications, you know, 2627 02:24:46,840 --> 02:24:50,320 Speaker 6: like what messages are have been like received. Sometimes it 2628 02:24:50,360 --> 02:24:52,440 Speaker 6: will only then have the received messages and not the 2629 02:24:52,480 --> 02:24:55,160 Speaker 6: send messages. Often these also include like a key logger 2630 02:24:55,520 --> 02:25:00,320 Speaker 6: component that maps messages then sent back as well. Depends 2631 02:25:00,360 --> 02:25:03,800 Speaker 6: a lot what these apps collect, but for most of them, 2632 02:25:03,840 --> 02:25:06,800 Speaker 6: also the collection for other texting apps is usually kind 2633 02:25:06,800 --> 02:25:10,000 Speaker 6: of broken. None of these apps are really well maintained. 2634 02:25:10,000 --> 02:25:13,160 Speaker 6: They're mostly just quick cash graps. Yeah, are there to 2635 02:25:13,240 --> 02:25:15,280 Speaker 6: maintain features usually don't really work. 2636 02:25:15,840 --> 02:25:19,080 Speaker 1: And it seems like based on that, one thing people 2637 02:25:19,120 --> 02:25:21,240 Speaker 1: can do outside of checking to see if their device 2638 02:25:21,280 --> 02:25:26,679 Speaker 1: has been compromised, is do stuff like turn off notifications 2639 02:25:26,840 --> 02:25:29,640 Speaker 1: for apps sling signal, right, like, and that's that's actually 2640 02:25:29,680 --> 02:25:34,120 Speaker 1: just generally good advice. Notifications are a compromise of the 2641 02:25:34,200 --> 02:25:39,360 Speaker 1: security that that signal offers. Don't have them enabled, you know, yeah, or. 2642 02:25:39,320 --> 02:25:41,400 Speaker 6: At the very least disabled them on the lock screen 2643 02:25:41,400 --> 02:25:43,840 Speaker 6: on Anthros. Yeah, I don't know how. I think that's 2644 02:25:43,879 --> 02:25:46,240 Speaker 6: also possible on iOS, but I think I doesn't show 2645 02:25:46,280 --> 02:25:49,160 Speaker 6: message content on the lock screen anyways. I'm not sure anymore, 2646 02:25:49,959 --> 02:25:52,760 Speaker 6: but yeah, it's just also small things like that. And also, 2647 02:25:52,840 --> 02:25:56,160 Speaker 6: like one of the key tells that someone probably tampered 2648 02:25:56,160 --> 02:25:59,119 Speaker 6: with your phone, especially for Android, is if Google play 2649 02:25:59,160 --> 02:26:02,640 Speaker 6: Protect is the disabled and you do not remember disabling 2650 02:26:02,680 --> 02:26:06,480 Speaker 6: it for something else, it was almost definitely disabled because 2651 02:26:06,520 --> 02:26:09,680 Speaker 6: someone installed something on your phone. Just try re enabling it. 2652 02:26:09,720 --> 02:26:12,200 Speaker 6: Then they will probably tell you something. The thing also 2653 02:26:12,240 --> 02:26:14,680 Speaker 6: to keep in mind, if you find starckaware on your phone, 2654 02:26:14,920 --> 02:26:18,240 Speaker 6: please get professional help. Do not just delete it. Do 2655 02:26:18,400 --> 02:26:21,800 Speaker 6: not like necessarily confront whoever you think might be your 2656 02:26:21,840 --> 02:26:24,640 Speaker 6: abuser about it unless you're very sure that that's the 2657 02:26:24,680 --> 02:26:29,000 Speaker 6: situation you can handle, because like, yeah, that is one 2658 02:26:29,000 --> 02:26:31,320 Speaker 6: of those things that like bringing it up or just 2659 02:26:31,440 --> 02:26:35,039 Speaker 6: deleting it can very quickly lead to like yeah, yeah, 2660 02:26:35,440 --> 02:26:37,280 Speaker 6: complicating the situation a lot. 2661 02:26:38,080 --> 02:26:53,280 Speaker 8: You know what else complicates the situation These ads and 2662 02:26:53,600 --> 02:26:54,280 Speaker 8: we are back. 2663 02:26:55,280 --> 02:26:58,480 Speaker 1: So when it comes to the actual fight against this stuff, 2664 02:26:58,480 --> 02:27:00,959 Speaker 1: obviously what you're doing is a big part of it. 2665 02:27:01,120 --> 02:27:05,480 Speaker 1: Getting inside these companies and finding out like what they're 2666 02:27:05,520 --> 02:27:08,879 Speaker 1: doing and their capabilities is huge for in terms of 2667 02:27:08,959 --> 02:27:11,640 Speaker 1: like what regular people are people who are interested in 2668 02:27:11,640 --> 02:27:14,960 Speaker 1: becoming activists about this can do? What is the what 2669 02:27:15,080 --> 02:27:17,800 Speaker 1: is the struggle to actually fight this stuff? Look like? 2670 02:27:17,800 --> 02:27:20,240 Speaker 1: Like how do we how do we put a bullet 2671 02:27:20,240 --> 02:27:21,360 Speaker 1: in this industry's head? 2672 02:27:21,720 --> 02:27:23,640 Speaker 6: I think one of the biggest things. And also like 2673 02:27:23,720 --> 02:27:25,600 Speaker 6: why I do the work I do with like hacking 2674 02:27:25,600 --> 02:27:27,960 Speaker 6: and with encouraging others to like send me data, be 2675 02:27:28,120 --> 02:27:31,039 Speaker 6: that insiders from these companies sending it I do to 2676 02:27:31,080 --> 02:27:34,360 Speaker 6: me or like tech Crunch specifically currently because like me 2677 02:27:34,440 --> 02:27:36,800 Speaker 6: and tech Crunch are like the only people really doing 2678 02:27:37,000 --> 02:27:41,680 Speaker 6: like journalism on this like regularly. And the important thing 2679 02:27:41,720 --> 02:27:44,080 Speaker 6: with like journalism and all of this is like awareness. 2680 02:27:44,240 --> 02:27:46,600 Speaker 6: It's very important to create awareness about this. That's also 2681 02:27:46,640 --> 02:27:48,440 Speaker 6: why I do the media work with like being on 2682 02:27:48,440 --> 02:27:51,480 Speaker 6: this podcast and things like that. I think the most 2683 02:27:51,480 --> 02:27:54,840 Speaker 6: important thing is to make people aware, like talk about 2684 02:27:54,840 --> 02:27:58,039 Speaker 6: this in your feminist circles or whatever, things like that, 2685 02:27:58,560 --> 02:28:01,480 Speaker 6: especially bring it up just also in general info things 2686 02:28:01,600 --> 02:28:04,160 Speaker 6: about abuse or how to detect abuse. I think the 2687 02:28:04,280 --> 02:28:07,840 Speaker 6: most important thing to do against s soccer whereas demastify it, 2688 02:28:08,200 --> 02:28:10,560 Speaker 6: because most people don't even know that this is a thing, 2689 02:28:10,720 --> 02:28:13,959 Speaker 6: that this is, like that there's just commercially available spyware 2690 02:28:14,560 --> 02:28:17,280 Speaker 6: anyone can install on your phone. It's as important to 2691 02:28:17,280 --> 02:28:19,640 Speaker 6: not like give in to some sort of paranoia as 2692 02:28:19,680 --> 02:28:22,879 Speaker 6: with any of these things. It's just important to like, yeah, 2693 02:28:23,000 --> 02:28:26,720 Speaker 6: generate awareness, talk about it and like spread these articles, 2694 02:28:27,680 --> 02:28:30,880 Speaker 6: let friends know that this is a potential thing, and 2695 02:28:30,920 --> 02:28:34,640 Speaker 6: then yeah, I I The hard thing with this is that, like, 2696 02:28:34,720 --> 02:28:37,760 Speaker 6: obviously it should will probably help if there was some 2697 02:28:37,800 --> 02:28:40,440 Speaker 6: sort of legislation against some of this, It's going to 2698 02:28:40,480 --> 02:28:44,039 Speaker 6: be very hard to get any proper legislation that ends 2699 02:28:44,040 --> 02:28:47,440 Speaker 6: this industry because in most Western countries, which are the 2700 02:28:47,480 --> 02:28:50,440 Speaker 6: only countries which unfortunately they would have enough power to 2701 02:28:50,600 --> 02:28:54,039 Speaker 6: like actually get these apps shut down, because that's the 2702 02:28:54,080 --> 02:28:56,800 Speaker 6: world we live in. But the problem there is usually 2703 02:28:56,800 --> 02:28:59,080 Speaker 6: that like this notion that children are owned by their 2704 02:28:59,080 --> 02:29:01,840 Speaker 6: parents is too strong to really make a full case 2705 02:29:01,879 --> 02:29:04,800 Speaker 6: against these apps. And at the very best what I can, 2706 02:29:05,240 --> 02:29:09,320 Speaker 6: like the very best time kind of hoping for from 2707 02:29:09,720 --> 02:29:13,959 Speaker 6: from legislators is just a ban on advertising these apps 2708 02:29:13,959 --> 02:29:17,119 Speaker 6: on use against other adults, which would be big already, 2709 02:29:17,200 --> 02:29:20,280 Speaker 6: but that doesn't really solve the issue because there's still 2710 02:29:20,320 --> 02:29:22,240 Speaker 6: going to be enough people who know of their use 2711 02:29:22,320 --> 02:29:24,880 Speaker 6: for use against adults, and there's going to be enough 2712 02:29:24,879 --> 02:29:28,600 Speaker 6: people on like credit threads talking about, hey, well yeah, 2713 02:29:28,720 --> 02:29:31,199 Speaker 6: you oh you're not sure if your government is cheating 2714 02:29:31,200 --> 02:29:33,200 Speaker 6: on you, look you can just use this app, you know. 2715 02:29:33,760 --> 02:29:36,199 Speaker 6: That's also how most of this marketing for this works. 2716 02:29:36,240 --> 02:29:38,280 Speaker 6: It's just yeah, at the end of the day, this 2717 02:29:38,360 --> 02:29:43,320 Speaker 6: is like a patriarchal issue. So yeah, I think that's 2718 02:29:43,320 --> 02:29:46,120 Speaker 6: also why like I am so focused on like the 2719 02:29:46,200 --> 02:29:49,199 Speaker 6: hacking and the like blowing these companies up and showing 2720 02:29:49,240 --> 02:29:51,600 Speaker 6: like who's behind them. It's because at the end of 2721 02:29:51,640 --> 02:29:54,040 Speaker 6: the day, the most effective thing we have against these 2722 02:29:54,080 --> 02:29:57,400 Speaker 6: companies is like the grassroots movement of making them too 2723 02:29:57,400 --> 02:30:00,000 Speaker 6: scared to run in this business, making it not profitable 2724 02:30:00,160 --> 02:30:02,280 Speaker 6: enough because as I said, most of this is like 2725 02:30:02,920 --> 02:30:08,680 Speaker 6: quick cash grabs from like web design studios and outsourcing companies. Yeah, 2726 02:30:08,760 --> 02:30:11,600 Speaker 6: that a're just making a quick buck from this because 2727 02:30:11,600 --> 02:30:14,000 Speaker 6: otherwise they don't get paid enough. Like that's the sad 2728 02:30:14,040 --> 02:30:16,080 Speaker 6: thing really is how much of this industry is in 2729 02:30:16,800 --> 02:30:20,600 Speaker 6: all of these countries. Western companies outsource their IT too, 2730 02:30:21,200 --> 02:30:23,800 Speaker 6: because there's lots of IT companies there and they are 2731 02:30:23,959 --> 02:30:29,080 Speaker 6: entirely reliant on like Western companies giving them very underpaid tasks. 2732 02:30:29,640 --> 02:30:31,560 Speaker 6: And you have this problem that you now have a 2733 02:30:31,560 --> 02:30:34,720 Speaker 6: bunch of employees and not enough money to always pay them. 2734 02:30:34,920 --> 02:30:36,920 Speaker 6: And what do you do, You like find some weird 2735 02:30:37,000 --> 02:30:40,560 Speaker 6: niche of like a tech product you can quickly build. Yeah, 2736 02:30:40,600 --> 02:30:42,720 Speaker 6: and this is like one of those easy niches. It's 2737 02:30:42,760 --> 02:30:47,160 Speaker 6: like always the scummy stuff and like yeah, it's that's 2738 02:30:47,200 --> 02:30:49,280 Speaker 6: also why like so many of these companies are like 2739 02:30:49,320 --> 02:30:51,840 Speaker 6: based out of Vietnam, out of Iran and whatever. It's 2740 02:30:51,879 --> 02:30:55,120 Speaker 6: just companies that already have it hard enough to do 2741 02:30:55,200 --> 02:30:59,560 Speaker 6: business globally, where the IT industry is like falling apart 2742 02:30:59,720 --> 02:31:03,320 Speaker 6: because there's not enough like local customers and anything that's 2743 02:31:03,360 --> 02:31:07,840 Speaker 6: international you're just the cheap workforce, right, So yeah, it's 2744 02:31:08,000 --> 02:31:10,600 Speaker 6: it's once again also like a class problem. I don't 2745 02:31:10,879 --> 02:31:13,480 Speaker 6: like most people working in this industry know that they're 2746 02:31:13,520 --> 02:31:15,520 Speaker 6: working in a like scummy industry. 2747 02:31:15,920 --> 02:31:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, but like, yeah, you got to get 2748 02:31:18,600 --> 02:31:20,240 Speaker 2: paid and that's yeah. 2749 02:31:20,000 --> 02:31:22,920 Speaker 6: And that's like why I think making it more scary 2750 02:31:22,959 --> 02:31:25,600 Speaker 6: to operate in this industry is like, yes, the way 2751 02:31:25,680 --> 02:31:28,520 Speaker 6: to go, because like with just like these like four 2752 02:31:29,080 --> 02:31:31,840 Speaker 6: hacks that have happened against these companies over the last 2753 02:31:31,879 --> 02:31:35,440 Speaker 6: like half a year or so, two of them, three 2754 02:31:35,480 --> 02:31:39,480 Speaker 6: of them, three of them have shut down completely. Others 2755 02:31:39,640 --> 02:31:44,520 Speaker 6: seem to be slowly moving towards just building other software primarily. Yeah, 2756 02:31:44,840 --> 02:31:48,400 Speaker 6: it's just like, yeah, it's it's it's like with any 2757 02:31:48,480 --> 02:31:50,760 Speaker 6: other like shady industry that the best we can do 2758 02:31:50,920 --> 02:31:54,080 Speaker 6: is just do not make it profitable to run the software, 2759 02:31:54,160 --> 02:31:57,680 Speaker 6: because at the very best, anything else we will get 2760 02:31:57,680 --> 02:32:00,000 Speaker 6: it's just pushing them more into the shadows, which is 2761 02:32:00,120 --> 02:32:01,680 Speaker 6: not going to solve the issue at all. 2762 02:32:02,280 --> 02:32:03,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 2763 02:32:03,320 --> 02:32:07,200 Speaker 1: I think a lot about like strategic thinking, which I 2764 02:32:07,240 --> 02:32:09,280 Speaker 1: do believe is kind of often in part because of 2765 02:32:09,760 --> 02:32:12,760 Speaker 1: how rightfully negative most people on the left think about 2766 02:32:12,760 --> 02:32:16,480 Speaker 1: the military. There's a tendency to ignore some of like 2767 02:32:16,560 --> 02:32:20,200 Speaker 1: the theory around how to actually win a conflict and 2768 02:32:20,320 --> 02:32:24,200 Speaker 1: all of it all strategy really when you're talking about 2769 02:32:24,200 --> 02:32:28,920 Speaker 1: like defeating an opponent, revolves around denying and taking operational 2770 02:32:29,000 --> 02:32:31,600 Speaker 1: area from them, right, And that's what you're talking about 2771 02:32:31,600 --> 02:32:33,200 Speaker 1: when you talk about, well, we need to stop this, 2772 02:32:33,360 --> 02:32:34,959 Speaker 1: you know, one of the first things we can do 2773 02:32:35,040 --> 02:32:37,240 Speaker 1: as part of fighting this is to stop them from 2774 02:32:37,280 --> 02:32:39,440 Speaker 1: being able to advertise certain places. 2775 02:32:39,520 --> 02:32:39,760 Speaker 2: Right. 2776 02:32:40,120 --> 02:32:43,320 Speaker 1: It's making sure that they're not able to operate without 2777 02:32:43,320 --> 02:32:47,600 Speaker 1: being seen. It's basically cutting down their area, their space 2778 02:32:47,680 --> 02:32:51,240 Speaker 1: to maneuver, their ability to profit, which cuts down their money, 2779 02:32:51,320 --> 02:32:55,320 Speaker 1: their access to people, their ability to actually operate. 2780 02:32:55,440 --> 02:32:55,640 Speaker 2: Right. 2781 02:32:55,680 --> 02:32:58,039 Speaker 1: Like, that's what we're looking at in terms of how 2782 02:32:58,080 --> 02:33:00,240 Speaker 1: do you kill this stuff. It's not one single really. 2783 02:33:00,280 --> 02:33:02,920 Speaker 1: I use the comparison of like a bullet, but it's 2784 02:33:02,920 --> 02:33:05,520 Speaker 1: never going to be one bullet. These things are too durable. 2785 02:33:05,560 --> 02:33:07,240 Speaker 1: There's too many countries in lay to do that. 2786 02:33:07,920 --> 02:33:10,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, that's also why I put so much emphasis on 2787 02:33:11,040 --> 02:33:13,760 Speaker 6: doing media work about this and getting more people to 2788 02:33:13,840 --> 02:33:17,199 Speaker 6: talk about this and getting more awareness of this out there, 2789 02:33:17,600 --> 02:33:19,280 Speaker 6: to the point where I'm willing to work with more 2790 02:33:19,320 --> 02:33:22,800 Speaker 6: conservative newspapers on this because everyone needs to know about this. 2791 02:33:22,920 --> 02:33:24,600 Speaker 6: At the end of the day, this is how we 2792 02:33:24,920 --> 02:33:27,959 Speaker 6: like stop people from falling victims to this. Most people 2793 02:33:28,000 --> 02:33:30,920 Speaker 6: who are a victim of stocker apps have never heard 2794 02:33:30,959 --> 02:33:34,240 Speaker 6: of stocker apps before, and I think that's like one 2795 02:33:34,240 --> 02:33:36,120 Speaker 6: of the biggest ways to tackle this. And on the 2796 02:33:36,120 --> 02:33:39,040 Speaker 6: other hand, we also have I think another big leverage 2797 02:33:39,080 --> 02:33:41,480 Speaker 6: point with how many of these are getting hacked because 2798 02:33:41,640 --> 02:33:44,240 Speaker 6: none of these apps are very secure. That's another thing 2799 02:33:44,680 --> 02:33:48,280 Speaker 6: is this can also be leveraged against like the abusers 2800 02:33:48,280 --> 02:33:50,760 Speaker 6: in this scenario. I think just pointing out to them 2801 02:33:50,800 --> 02:33:53,120 Speaker 6: that all of these apps get hacked all the time 2802 02:33:53,360 --> 02:33:55,120 Speaker 6: and that this is how they get found out, that 2803 02:33:55,120 --> 02:33:58,160 Speaker 6: that this is how their data of them as abusers 2804 02:33:58,320 --> 02:34:01,039 Speaker 6: ends up landing on the internet. I think it's also 2805 02:34:01,240 --> 02:34:03,560 Speaker 6: like a very important angle at the end of the day. 2806 02:34:03,560 --> 02:34:05,800 Speaker 6: It's just to make it clear like yeah, no, not 2807 02:34:05,840 --> 02:34:10,440 Speaker 6: even you are like secure from this having consequences for 2808 02:34:10,520 --> 02:34:14,480 Speaker 6: your life, like beyond like direct interpersonal or legal consequences. 2809 02:34:14,600 --> 02:34:18,200 Speaker 6: This can and in the past has result in like 2810 02:34:18,280 --> 02:34:20,560 Speaker 6: your email adders being on a list of people who 2811 02:34:20,560 --> 02:34:23,879 Speaker 6: have du abuse to people online. You don't want to 2812 02:34:23,920 --> 02:34:26,480 Speaker 6: be on such a list. I think that's also important 2813 02:34:26,640 --> 02:34:29,760 Speaker 6: just to like point out there isn't one stock of 2814 02:34:29,800 --> 02:34:32,119 Speaker 6: a app that's not eventually going to get hacked. There 2815 02:34:32,160 --> 02:34:34,640 Speaker 6: is a big war against these apps. They're all like 2816 02:34:34,879 --> 02:34:37,760 Speaker 6: there's so many different hacking groups that keep sending me 2817 02:34:37,879 --> 02:34:40,800 Speaker 6: data from these Like I'm already working on another article 2818 02:34:41,120 --> 02:34:44,200 Speaker 6: that already once again affects like the data of like 2819 02:34:44,800 --> 02:34:48,600 Speaker 6: I think like eighty thousand more like abusers, and it's 2820 02:34:48,720 --> 02:34:50,760 Speaker 6: just the abuser data this time. But I'm still going 2821 02:34:50,800 --> 02:34:53,880 Speaker 6: to report on it, like it's it's it's this is 2822 02:34:53,920 --> 02:34:56,760 Speaker 6: not going to stop. It's even also not going to 2823 02:34:56,800 --> 02:35:00,000 Speaker 6: stop when I stop reporting on this myself, like I've 2824 02:35:00,560 --> 02:35:03,080 Speaker 6: that there's been work before me downe on this. I 2825 02:35:03,160 --> 02:35:05,879 Speaker 6: also the first time I got involved in finding stockover 2826 02:35:06,120 --> 02:35:08,920 Speaker 6: was back in twenty twenty. People have been hacking these 2827 02:35:08,959 --> 02:35:11,720 Speaker 6: apps forever and will keep hacking them, Like just look 2828 02:35:11,760 --> 02:35:15,240 Speaker 6: at the Wikipedia page for Stockover. There's an ever growing 2829 02:35:15,320 --> 02:35:17,720 Speaker 6: list of these apps that have been hacked, and I 2830 02:35:17,720 --> 02:35:20,840 Speaker 6: think at this point that like official count being kept 2831 02:35:20,920 --> 02:35:22,920 Speaker 6: by one of the people at TechCrunch is at like 2832 02:35:23,680 --> 02:35:26,959 Speaker 6: thirteen apps, a few of which have been hacked two 2833 02:35:27,080 --> 02:35:31,800 Speaker 6: or three times. Yeah, these are not these are not 2834 02:35:31,920 --> 02:35:33,359 Speaker 6: secure apps for any. 2835 02:35:33,200 --> 02:35:36,959 Speaker 1: No, no, no, of course not. Yeah, and they yeah, 2836 02:35:37,040 --> 02:35:40,240 Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense that like an app dedicated 2837 02:35:40,320 --> 02:35:44,720 Speaker 1: to violating people's privacy for money would also basically violate 2838 02:35:44,760 --> 02:35:46,760 Speaker 1: the privacy of the people using it. 2839 02:35:46,920 --> 02:35:49,680 Speaker 6: Yeah, and also they don't care. Like I said, of 2840 02:35:49,720 --> 02:35:53,080 Speaker 6: course it's a cash crap. It's nothing else. There's a 2841 02:35:53,080 --> 02:35:55,200 Speaker 6: few apps that are like a little more than a 2842 02:35:55,200 --> 02:35:57,840 Speaker 6: cash crap, but it's usually just because they're made, Like 2843 02:35:57,840 --> 02:36:00,640 Speaker 6: there's still a cash grap, but they're like more well made. 2844 02:36:00,640 --> 02:36:03,000 Speaker 6: But it's because they're a cash graph from a company 2845 02:36:03,040 --> 02:36:06,680 Speaker 6: that has better developers or more money to do the 2846 02:36:06,959 --> 02:36:10,039 Speaker 6: initial investment. The thing is also like most of these 2847 02:36:10,040 --> 02:36:12,240 Speaker 6: companies don't have a lot of initial investment, And I 2848 02:36:12,320 --> 02:36:14,960 Speaker 6: think the important thing to consider as well. Here is 2849 02:36:15,680 --> 02:36:18,400 Speaker 6: one big area of this that I have not yet 2850 02:36:18,440 --> 02:36:21,440 Speaker 6: started tackling, but I do want to like look into more. Sometimes. 2851 02:36:21,600 --> 02:36:24,960 Speaker 6: Is a big reason this industry is so big and 2852 02:36:25,760 --> 02:36:28,359 Speaker 6: most of these apps have a lot of users despite 2853 02:36:28,360 --> 02:36:32,520 Speaker 6: there being so many of them, is the affiliate marketing industry. 2854 02:36:32,640 --> 02:36:36,400 Speaker 6: Once again, our very beloved friend. Yeah, all of these 2855 02:36:36,440 --> 02:36:39,800 Speaker 6: apps are parts of various affiliate marketing networks. Some of 2856 02:36:39,840 --> 02:36:43,440 Speaker 6: them started by stocker Ware company, and some of them 2857 02:36:43,800 --> 02:36:47,360 Speaker 6: just other like things to advertise all the shady things 2858 02:36:47,400 --> 02:36:49,959 Speaker 6: like all those phone number locator apps or whatever that's 2859 02:36:49,959 --> 02:36:53,240 Speaker 6: also part of those same affiliate marketing networks. And there's 2860 02:36:53,320 --> 02:36:55,720 Speaker 6: lots of money flowing here, and there's lots of money 2861 02:36:55,760 --> 02:36:59,200 Speaker 6: flowing to very big tech YouTube channels, and I might 2862 02:36:59,240 --> 02:37:02,080 Speaker 6: soon have some proof for some of that. But that's 2863 02:37:02,120 --> 02:37:05,760 Speaker 6: how these are advertised. It's everyone who advertises stock Aware 2864 02:37:05,800 --> 02:37:08,200 Speaker 6: to you, who has a big platform, is doing that 2865 02:37:08,240 --> 02:37:11,440 Speaker 6: because they're getting money, not for any other reason. 2866 02:37:12,560 --> 02:37:17,000 Speaker 8: We need to do more ads. We will be back shortly, 2867 02:37:28,360 --> 02:37:29,959 Speaker 8: and we are back. 2868 02:37:30,879 --> 02:37:33,199 Speaker 1: Well that's all I had, Miya, What do you got? 2869 02:37:33,920 --> 02:37:36,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess there's there's another thing I wanted. 2870 02:37:36,360 --> 02:37:39,400 Speaker 8: To ask a little bit about, which Zach Whitaker, who's 2871 02:37:39,440 --> 02:37:41,680 Speaker 8: been one of the journal journalists at tech Crunch doing 2872 02:37:41,720 --> 02:37:44,640 Speaker 8: a lot of the research, is great. One of the 2873 02:37:44,680 --> 02:37:47,480 Speaker 8: things that he brings up that I think is another 2874 02:37:48,120 --> 02:37:49,920 Speaker 8: I don't know. It's kind of a plane with fire 2875 02:37:50,400 --> 02:37:53,360 Speaker 8: angle on them. But one of the issues that these 2876 02:37:53,360 --> 02:37:58,920 Speaker 8: companies seem to have is payment platforms, because a lot 2877 02:37:58,920 --> 02:38:03,320 Speaker 8: of payment platforms look at this and go wait, hold on. Yeah, 2878 02:38:03,360 --> 02:38:05,119 Speaker 8: so that's yeah, we've talked about that a little bit. 2879 02:38:05,120 --> 02:38:07,560 Speaker 6: That's an angle. We've also been fighting on a lot. 2880 02:38:07,640 --> 02:38:09,680 Speaker 6: Like me and Sick, we work on most of these 2881 02:38:09,720 --> 02:38:13,240 Speaker 6: stories together. Like it's kind of funny. We both got 2882 02:38:13,280 --> 02:38:16,040 Speaker 6: each other into the stockow thing back in twenty twenty. 2883 02:38:16,160 --> 02:38:18,680 Speaker 6: As I mentioned, that was the first time I stumbled 2884 02:38:18,720 --> 02:38:21,920 Speaker 6: into a stockerware app with a security issue. I reached 2885 02:38:21,920 --> 02:38:24,600 Speaker 6: out to some random journalists that tech Crunch about it. 2886 02:38:24,920 --> 02:38:27,000 Speaker 6: And now he is the only one talking about this 2887 02:38:27,160 --> 02:38:29,760 Speaker 6: forever because I reached out to him that one time 2888 02:38:30,240 --> 02:38:34,200 Speaker 6: and he got sucked into this horrible, horrible world of spying. 2889 02:38:34,640 --> 02:38:37,160 Speaker 6: But yeah, Like one of the things we focus on 2890 02:38:37,200 --> 02:38:40,520 Speaker 6: a lot is reporting these companies to their payment providers, 2891 02:38:40,560 --> 02:38:43,760 Speaker 6: to their server hosters, to the point where sometimes like 2892 02:38:43,840 --> 02:38:46,360 Speaker 6: for weeks, Sack will just wait for them to switch 2893 02:38:46,400 --> 02:38:48,440 Speaker 6: to a new provider after we got them taken them 2894 02:38:48,440 --> 02:38:51,200 Speaker 6: from like PayPal, and then from their other PayPal account 2895 02:38:51,200 --> 02:38:54,160 Speaker 6: where they're just using like the checkout experience from one 2896 02:38:54,160 --> 02:38:57,560 Speaker 6: of their completely unrelated software projects, which they will later 2897 02:38:57,600 --> 02:39:01,240 Speaker 6: claim is not related at all the different companies and whatever. 2898 02:39:01,760 --> 02:39:04,039 Speaker 6: But then like eventually they get taken down from that 2899 02:39:04,120 --> 02:39:06,480 Speaker 6: as well, and usually we can get them taken them 2900 02:39:06,480 --> 02:39:09,520 Speaker 6: from most like Western hosters, like especially US housters, will 2901 02:39:09,520 --> 02:39:12,360 Speaker 6: immediately take them down. You do not want to risk 2902 02:39:12,560 --> 02:39:15,880 Speaker 6: being the company hosting spuywire on US grounds. 2903 02:39:16,120 --> 02:39:16,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 2904 02:39:16,840 --> 02:39:20,160 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's just like same with EO hosters. Like the 2905 02:39:20,240 --> 02:39:22,720 Speaker 6: few companies that we've seen that were on Headsnerd, they 2906 02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:27,320 Speaker 6: immediately react because it's like yeah no, like under EULO, 2907 02:39:27,480 --> 02:39:29,400 Speaker 6: you don't want to like risk that, and also just 2908 02:39:29,640 --> 02:39:31,520 Speaker 6: because you don't want to host that, like there's no 2909 02:39:31,600 --> 02:39:34,600 Speaker 6: reason for you to host shit like that. It will 2910 02:39:34,640 --> 02:39:39,360 Speaker 6: have like image consequences, and that's an important thing that 2911 02:39:39,560 --> 02:39:41,840 Speaker 6: is maybe also something you can do as more like 2912 02:39:41,879 --> 02:39:44,520 Speaker 6: a grassroots thing. It's also like if you find one 2913 02:39:44,520 --> 02:39:46,720 Speaker 6: of these apps and if you see, oh they're using 2914 02:39:46,800 --> 02:39:50,840 Speaker 6: like PayPal or whatever, just reach out. I think PayPal 2915 02:39:50,959 --> 02:39:53,080 Speaker 6: is even harder to reach as like just an average 2916 02:39:53,120 --> 02:39:56,240 Speaker 6: LA person. Don't expect them to reply. They might still 2917 02:39:56,280 --> 02:39:59,160 Speaker 6: take action. You will have to manually check PayPal doesn't 2918 02:39:59,320 --> 02:40:02,840 Speaker 6: really reply. Two things ever, but yeah, same as like 2919 02:40:02,879 --> 02:40:05,439 Speaker 6: hosting company. If it's either hosted on like a European 2920 02:40:05,520 --> 02:40:08,320 Speaker 6: or American hosting company, I just just reach out and 2921 02:40:08,360 --> 02:40:11,800 Speaker 6: be like, hey, there's someone running spyware on your thing. 2922 02:40:11,840 --> 02:40:14,120 Speaker 6: Also use the word spyware, not stocker, where they will 2923 02:40:14,120 --> 02:40:18,520 Speaker 6: not know what that is, and it is spyware. So yeah, 2924 02:40:18,560 --> 02:40:21,720 Speaker 6: and that can usually get them taken down. And often 2925 02:40:21,760 --> 02:40:24,280 Speaker 6: they don't have proper backups and we'll have a few 2926 02:40:24,320 --> 02:40:26,959 Speaker 6: months of data missing and it's like, yeah, that's how 2927 02:40:27,000 --> 02:40:31,039 Speaker 6: you slowly grind them to a halt. Yeah. And also 2928 02:40:31,080 --> 02:40:33,680 Speaker 6: once again, like if you have tips about any of 2929 02:40:33,720 --> 02:40:37,400 Speaker 6: these companies, be it having found a vulnerability just or 2930 02:40:37,440 --> 02:40:40,800 Speaker 6: insider info especially I'm always very happy about the insider info. 2931 02:40:40,920 --> 02:40:42,840 Speaker 6: You can reach out to either me or Sack White. 2932 02:40:43,160 --> 02:40:45,200 Speaker 6: We're both very happy to talk about this. 2933 02:40:45,800 --> 02:40:47,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. 2934 02:40:47,240 --> 02:40:50,360 Speaker 8: Yeah, that's something that's been used really effectively by right 2935 02:40:50,400 --> 02:40:51,920 Speaker 8: wingers to target sex workers. 2936 02:40:52,400 --> 02:40:54,080 Speaker 2: There's been a huge. 2937 02:40:53,879 --> 02:40:57,440 Speaker 8: Thing, there's been a bunch of campaigns to get platform 2938 02:40:57,440 --> 02:41:00,119 Speaker 8: companies and yeah, so it's. 2939 02:41:00,720 --> 02:41:03,440 Speaker 6: It's interesting that for once we can use the very 2940 02:41:03,600 --> 02:41:07,840 Speaker 6: restrictive and conservative rules of payment providers for our good. 2941 02:41:08,200 --> 02:41:08,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 2942 02:41:08,800 --> 02:41:11,400 Speaker 6: But yeah, basically, any of the big payment providers will 2943 02:41:11,440 --> 02:41:14,400 Speaker 6: not respect something like this. Some of the small regional 2944 02:41:14,480 --> 02:41:17,400 Speaker 6: odd ones probably won't really give a shit. They have 2945 02:41:17,480 --> 02:41:21,360 Speaker 6: no reason to. It's like revenue for them. But yeah, 2946 02:41:21,720 --> 02:41:24,840 Speaker 6: it's generally worth trying. And I'm always glad like if 2947 02:41:24,879 --> 02:41:27,360 Speaker 6: someone just reaches out to these companies and we don't 2948 02:41:27,360 --> 02:41:30,640 Speaker 6: have to do that ourselves. I think me and second 2949 02:41:30,720 --> 02:41:33,560 Speaker 6: to few other people like actively working on this are 2950 02:41:33,600 --> 02:41:36,800 Speaker 6: doing more than enough work currently. But yeah, just if 2951 02:41:36,840 --> 02:41:38,920 Speaker 6: you find one of these things that don't go digging 2952 02:41:38,959 --> 02:41:41,640 Speaker 6: too deep. It's a depressing world. But if you stumble 2953 02:41:41,680 --> 02:41:45,800 Speaker 6: upon one of these somewhere or whatever, just just report them. 2954 02:41:46,040 --> 02:41:48,760 Speaker 6: It's it's it's going to disrupt their operations and if 2955 02:41:48,800 --> 02:41:50,080 Speaker 6: it happens often enough, they. 2956 02:41:50,080 --> 02:41:50,959 Speaker 2: Might just give up. 2957 02:41:51,280 --> 02:41:54,840 Speaker 6: Yeah, And I mean, like in cases like the truths by, 2958 02:41:54,879 --> 02:41:58,400 Speaker 6: they are willing to do extreme amounts of fraud to 2959 02:42:00,040 --> 02:42:03,280 Speaker 6: get to money easily because they like started with like 2960 02:42:03,360 --> 02:42:06,640 Speaker 6: mostly just in like with the market they could get 2961 02:42:06,640 --> 02:42:10,240 Speaker 6: with their Vietnamese payment providers, right, Eventually they realized, well, 2962 02:42:10,320 --> 02:42:12,960 Speaker 6: the US is like this really big market, right, but 2963 02:42:13,120 --> 02:42:15,720 Speaker 6: for really easy like US stuff, we need like a 2964 02:42:15,720 --> 02:42:19,440 Speaker 6: paypoal thing, right, So they might like over twelve fake 2965 02:42:19,480 --> 02:42:23,760 Speaker 6: American identities with fake passports and fake addresses and sign 2966 02:42:23,879 --> 02:42:26,400 Speaker 6: up to PayPal a whole bunch of times and had 2967 02:42:26,480 --> 02:42:30,279 Speaker 6: various employees that the company move money around. Yeah, that's 2968 02:42:30,920 --> 02:42:34,600 Speaker 6: obviously not a thing the US government will like if 2969 02:42:34,640 --> 02:42:38,879 Speaker 6: you do that. Generally speaking, they moved like millions like that, 2970 02:42:39,160 --> 02:42:44,279 Speaker 6: so yeah, which is pretty crazy like that. The amount 2971 02:42:44,280 --> 02:42:48,359 Speaker 6: of money that's moving in this industry is crazy. Like yeah, actually, 2972 02:42:48,400 --> 02:42:51,280 Speaker 6: like most of these app apps will be half broken, 2973 02:42:51,440 --> 02:42:54,040 Speaker 6: which no one ever complains about because like it's shady, 2974 02:42:54,240 --> 02:42:56,640 Speaker 6: like you don't expect like if you go online and 2975 02:42:56,720 --> 02:42:58,959 Speaker 6: you search for something shady like anything like be it 2976 02:42:59,040 --> 02:43:01,640 Speaker 6: piracy or whatever, you don't expect it to be the 2977 02:43:01,680 --> 02:43:04,320 Speaker 6: best experience ever. Like you know, you're getting some weird 2978 02:43:04,360 --> 02:43:07,080 Speaker 6: service and it's probably going to be half broken. But yeah, 2979 02:43:07,160 --> 02:43:09,959 Speaker 6: like most of these talkover apps started like forty dollars 2980 02:43:10,040 --> 02:43:13,560 Speaker 6: a month and more, and in some days for more 2981 02:43:13,600 --> 02:43:16,160 Speaker 6: features you pay like up to sixty or seventy or so, 2982 02:43:16,840 --> 02:43:19,200 Speaker 6: and then all of these have like tens of thousands 2983 02:43:19,240 --> 02:43:22,640 Speaker 6: of users, sometimes hundreds of thousands of users. Yeah, you 2984 02:43:23,120 --> 02:43:26,960 Speaker 6: can do them at yourself. It's crazy. This is a 2985 02:43:27,000 --> 02:43:29,600 Speaker 6: really big industry, which makes it so crazy to me 2986 02:43:29,680 --> 02:43:31,680 Speaker 6: that it's like not a thing that's talked about more, 2987 02:43:31,760 --> 02:43:35,200 Speaker 6: especially in like feminist spaces and things like that, because 2988 02:43:35,400 --> 02:43:38,600 Speaker 6: this is such a big angle of like modern tech 2989 02:43:38,680 --> 02:43:42,039 Speaker 6: enabled abuse that they really think should should be more 2990 02:43:42,040 --> 02:43:45,240 Speaker 6: of a topic, especially on the left, like this this 2991 02:43:45,280 --> 02:43:45,760 Speaker 6: is bad. 2992 02:43:46,360 --> 02:43:49,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, this is like critically bad. I agree entirely. 2993 02:43:49,959 --> 02:43:51,840 Speaker 6: And also like that the whole thing with like all 2994 02:43:51,879 --> 02:43:54,400 Speaker 6: of this data being so easily accept your data can 2995 02:43:54,720 --> 02:43:57,440 Speaker 6: end up getting sold on some dark web forum. You're 2996 02:43:57,920 --> 02:44:00,879 Speaker 6: both as the abuser and that's the target, right and 2997 02:44:01,040 --> 02:44:03,360 Speaker 6: the corter government can find these like I have no 2998 02:44:03,760 --> 02:44:06,280 Speaker 6: like this. This is not me making a statement of 2999 02:44:06,360 --> 02:44:10,680 Speaker 6: that's a thing that's happening, but there's nothing preventing from 3000 02:44:10,760 --> 02:44:14,080 Speaker 6: hacking these companies and getting yeah, like like I sometimes 3001 02:44:14,240 --> 02:44:16,800 Speaker 6: like when whenever I get these data sets, and it's 3002 02:44:16,840 --> 02:44:19,200 Speaker 6: always hard to work with data sets that include like 3003 02:44:19,720 --> 02:44:23,080 Speaker 6: non consent essentially collect the data of people, right, Yes, 3004 02:44:23,080 --> 02:44:25,720 Speaker 6: but like I do always like do some due diligence checks, 3005 02:44:25,760 --> 02:44:28,080 Speaker 6: like mostly trying to find if the government is using 3006 02:44:28,080 --> 02:44:31,640 Speaker 6: a specific app. Sometimes yes, there's always like the odd 3007 02:44:31,760 --> 02:44:34,520 Speaker 6: correction law of facility officer who has signed up for 3008 02:44:34,520 --> 02:44:38,520 Speaker 6: one or two of these apps or like education people 3009 02:44:38,600 --> 02:44:41,160 Speaker 6: and whatever. But then I also only search through the 3010 02:44:41,200 --> 02:44:43,280 Speaker 6: text message just for just some code words and the 3011 02:44:43,320 --> 02:44:47,560 Speaker 6: amount of people moving drugs have stockerware on their phones. 3012 02:44:48,000 --> 02:44:51,160 Speaker 6: It's you know, yeah. 3013 02:44:51,160 --> 02:44:54,600 Speaker 1: And it's it's one of those things where there are laws, 3014 02:44:54,640 --> 02:44:57,520 Speaker 1: Like technically, if I if my understanding of the laws 3015 02:44:57,520 --> 02:45:00,160 Speaker 1: around this are correct, it is illegal for an organization 3016 02:45:00,320 --> 02:45:02,600 Speaker 1: like the FBI to utilize these apps. 3017 02:45:03,000 --> 02:45:06,760 Speaker 6: But yes, but we have an organized and called the 3018 02:45:06,920 --> 02:45:07,760 Speaker 6: NSA who. 3019 02:45:09,520 --> 02:45:12,200 Speaker 1: And it is it is on paper illegal for them 3020 02:45:12,240 --> 02:45:14,879 Speaker 1: to do this with a third party app. But one 3021 02:45:14,920 --> 02:45:18,720 Speaker 1: thing that often gets done, particularly by the FBI, but 3022 02:45:18,720 --> 02:45:21,080 Speaker 1: but you know, not just by them, is it's not 3023 02:45:21,160 --> 02:45:26,320 Speaker 1: illegal for law enforcement agencies to contract with private agencies. 3024 02:45:26,480 --> 02:45:29,400 Speaker 1: And if those agencies you don't you just don't check 3025 02:45:29,440 --> 02:45:32,480 Speaker 1: in on what they're doing, you know, what they're using. 3026 02:45:32,640 --> 02:45:34,960 Speaker 6: But like, yeah, or like if an inform or like 3027 02:45:35,000 --> 02:45:37,720 Speaker 6: if an informant like sends you to state that, like 3028 02:45:37,720 --> 02:45:38,879 Speaker 6: you're not going to say. 3029 02:45:38,680 --> 02:45:40,320 Speaker 2: No exactly exactly. 3030 02:45:40,320 --> 02:45:42,640 Speaker 6: And also you don't really need to disclose that because 3031 02:45:42,640 --> 02:45:45,120 Speaker 6: it's information from an informant. You do not need to 3032 02:45:45,120 --> 02:45:46,960 Speaker 6: disclose an informant in court ever. 3033 02:45:47,400 --> 02:45:48,359 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's. 3034 02:45:49,840 --> 02:45:52,360 Speaker 1: It's it's very there are there are ways around you know, 3035 02:45:52,400 --> 02:45:54,600 Speaker 1: the laws that we put up, not that we shouldn't 3036 02:45:54,640 --> 02:45:58,120 Speaker 1: continue to extend those laws, but you shouldn't like just 3037 02:45:58,160 --> 02:46:00,840 Speaker 1: because well they're not allowed to use this doesn't mean 3038 02:46:00,879 --> 02:46:02,520 Speaker 1: they can't get access to the info. 3039 02:46:02,680 --> 02:46:03,680 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. 3040 02:46:03,720 --> 02:46:05,960 Speaker 6: And also there's all this important thing like there's more 3041 02:46:06,080 --> 02:46:08,920 Speaker 6: like also globally, like there's other governments that can just 3042 02:46:08,959 --> 02:46:10,640 Speaker 6: be using this. Like for one of the apps I. 3043 02:46:10,560 --> 02:46:13,720 Speaker 1: Got, the government, the Russian government doesn't give a ship. 3044 02:46:14,240 --> 02:46:17,160 Speaker 6: That was also like another thing where I's like for 3045 02:46:17,240 --> 02:46:18,959 Speaker 6: one of the apps I got data for. There was 3046 02:46:18,959 --> 02:46:22,000 Speaker 6: some indication that at some point the Colombian National Police 3047 02:46:22,040 --> 02:46:27,960 Speaker 6: did a bigger evaluation of using commercials spyware for their use. 3048 02:46:28,040 --> 02:46:30,400 Speaker 6: Because you're in the country with not that big of 3049 02:46:30,440 --> 02:46:33,360 Speaker 6: a like police budget in comparison, you cannot afford like 3050 02:46:33,400 --> 02:46:36,480 Speaker 6: all the coolest Raeli tools everyone else has. So what 3051 02:46:36,520 --> 02:46:39,039 Speaker 6: do you do? You just look for random apps you 3052 02:46:39,040 --> 02:46:42,279 Speaker 6: can find, you know, yeah, you find the Walmart, the Kirkland, 3053 02:46:42,760 --> 02:46:45,039 Speaker 6: the wish to conversion, I guess. 3054 02:46:45,000 --> 02:46:48,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah Ali baba spyware, right, yeah. 3055 02:46:49,560 --> 02:46:51,680 Speaker 6: I don't think most of them moved forward with this 3056 02:46:51,800 --> 02:46:54,520 Speaker 6: because these apps fucking suck, Like they're bad, Like that's 3057 02:46:54,640 --> 02:46:56,720 Speaker 6: that's the other thing, Like they don't even really do 3058 02:46:56,760 --> 02:46:59,320 Speaker 6: their jump. Well, they're bad, and you don't know who 3059 02:46:59,400 --> 02:47:01,440 Speaker 6: is behind them. You cannot even go up to someone 3060 02:47:01,480 --> 02:47:03,800 Speaker 6: and be like, yo, don't do this. You also kind 3061 02:47:03,800 --> 02:47:05,720 Speaker 6: of go to the cops and be like, this company 3062 02:47:05,760 --> 02:47:09,840 Speaker 6: is scamming me, because yeah, I assume some people have 3063 02:47:10,040 --> 02:47:13,200 Speaker 6: probably done that before, but it does involve admitting to 3064 02:47:13,240 --> 02:47:17,800 Speaker 6: a crime. So yeah, it's like, yeah, these companies just 3065 02:47:17,840 --> 02:47:20,280 Speaker 6: get away with not giving a shit about their product 3066 02:47:20,360 --> 02:47:20,879 Speaker 6: because like. 3067 02:47:21,040 --> 02:47:25,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I think that's that's all we had. 3068 02:47:26,000 --> 02:47:29,440 Speaker 1: Thank you Maya for both the work you're doing and 3069 02:47:29,520 --> 02:47:31,600 Speaker 1: for talking to us. Yeah always, is there anything you 3070 02:47:31,600 --> 02:47:33,879 Speaker 1: wanted to plug before we roll out here? 3071 02:47:34,000 --> 02:47:36,440 Speaker 6: Just just my blog I think where we're like, I 3072 02:47:36,480 --> 02:47:39,039 Speaker 6: do this journalistic work and also more, there's about to 3073 02:47:39,040 --> 02:47:43,360 Speaker 6: be another cool investigative piece out soon which tincantually involves 3074 02:47:43,400 --> 02:47:47,520 Speaker 6: more tracking and whatever and also involves like Hollywood and more. 3075 02:47:47,600 --> 02:47:50,720 Speaker 6: It's it's it's it's a crazy big story. I promise 3076 02:47:51,480 --> 02:47:53,600 Speaker 6: that will be out like hopefully in a month or so. 3077 02:47:54,120 --> 02:47:58,160 Speaker 6: But yeah, my blog at Maya dot CRIMEU dot gay crime, 3078 02:47:58,200 --> 02:48:01,360 Speaker 6: you as in crime w yeah and kay yes and 3079 02:48:01,520 --> 02:48:06,680 Speaker 6: gay yeah yeah. Just check out my blog At the 3080 02:48:06,680 --> 02:48:08,600 Speaker 6: bottom of the blog, there's all my links to my 3081 02:48:08,640 --> 02:48:11,200 Speaker 6: social media for anyone who's like listening to this and 3082 02:48:11,400 --> 02:48:13,520 Speaker 6: has been wondering where I am. I am back on 3083 02:48:13,560 --> 02:48:14,360 Speaker 6: Twitter as well. 3084 02:48:14,800 --> 02:48:18,840 Speaker 1: Yeah for now, for now, that's for all of us 3085 02:48:19,160 --> 02:48:19,800 Speaker 1: these days. 3086 02:48:19,800 --> 02:48:22,240 Speaker 2: That's always like now this point. 3087 02:48:22,320 --> 02:48:25,240 Speaker 6: But yeah, I am back on twether. I'm posting there 3088 02:48:25,360 --> 02:48:27,560 Speaker 6: sometimes yeah m hmm. 3089 02:48:28,800 --> 02:48:32,120 Speaker 1: All right, well, thank you and thank you all for listening. 3090 02:48:32,240 --> 02:48:34,760 Speaker 1: We will be back tomorrow, unless this comes out on 3091 02:48:34,800 --> 02:48:37,440 Speaker 1: a Friday, in which case we'll be back at some 3092 02:48:37,560 --> 02:48:38,840 Speaker 1: other point but soon. 3093 02:48:59,640 --> 02:49:04,160 Speaker 2: Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh. 3094 02:49:05,480 --> 02:49:07,920 Speaker 21: If Robert can do his atonal shreaks, then I can 3095 02:49:07,959 --> 02:49:12,040 Speaker 21: sing off key yo, I'm back. Help me all up 3096 02:49:12,040 --> 02:49:15,080 Speaker 21: in your feed. Wat these raps get all up in 3097 02:49:15,120 --> 02:49:19,000 Speaker 21: your feed. That's a wu tang reference again to the 3098 02:49:19,040 --> 02:49:21,840 Speaker 21: Black delegation. Shout out y'all showing up on the in 3099 02:49:21,920 --> 02:49:24,800 Speaker 21: the subreddit. You feel me, Black folks showing up and 3100 02:49:24,879 --> 02:49:26,360 Speaker 21: showing out. I appreciate y'all. 3101 02:49:26,520 --> 02:49:28,760 Speaker 20: I was wrong. It's more than five of us. I 3102 02:49:28,840 --> 02:49:29,680 Speaker 20: shout out to you, man. 3103 02:49:29,720 --> 02:49:30,480 Speaker 2: I love y'all. 3104 02:49:30,480 --> 02:49:32,680 Speaker 21: Thanks for showing up, and shout out all the Latinos 3105 02:49:32,680 --> 02:49:34,480 Speaker 21: who tapped into and le puez. 3106 02:49:34,840 --> 02:49:39,000 Speaker 20: Hey, gontodo me hint ben at guy When. 3107 02:49:38,920 --> 02:49:42,959 Speaker 21: Valilo listen, we gotta really invite our Latino brothers and sisters, 3108 02:49:43,240 --> 02:49:46,959 Speaker 21: our Theos and diaz and also our Asian black people, 3109 02:49:47,280 --> 02:49:51,000 Speaker 21: the penoise and pen eyes, our athes and Quias. You're 3110 02:49:51,040 --> 02:49:54,640 Speaker 21: all a part of our delegation here, all of our usos. 3111 02:49:55,080 --> 02:49:58,240 Speaker 21: We love y'all, the whole diaspora of people who seizing 3112 02:49:58,320 --> 02:50:00,840 Speaker 21: their chicken and wash their legs. I love y'all, and 3113 02:50:00,920 --> 02:50:03,280 Speaker 21: to this whole delegation. Once we add it all together, 3114 02:50:03,280 --> 02:50:05,760 Speaker 21: it is about twenty of us to you. I say, 3115 02:50:06,480 --> 02:50:09,080 Speaker 21: y'all want something from the gas station. I got you 3116 02:50:10,560 --> 02:50:13,480 Speaker 21: so today. I don't want to ruin your breakfast. I 3117 02:50:13,480 --> 02:50:15,720 Speaker 21: don't want to ruin your coffee. I'm just gonna ruin 3118 02:50:15,760 --> 02:50:22,119 Speaker 21: your music. This is about the death of the music festival. 3119 02:50:22,920 --> 02:50:26,879 Speaker 21: It already happened here all right now, y'all know I'll 3120 02:50:26,920 --> 02:50:29,600 Speaker 21: be playing. I'm playing about all this like I'm only 3121 02:50:29,640 --> 02:50:31,040 Speaker 21: talking to the melanated folks. 3122 02:50:31,080 --> 02:50:31,280 Speaker 2: Y'all. 3123 02:50:31,480 --> 02:50:32,600 Speaker 20: Y'all know I'm playing right. 3124 02:50:33,040 --> 02:50:36,000 Speaker 21: I mean, this is why I while I slowly wink 3125 02:50:36,040 --> 02:50:39,520 Speaker 21: at brown folk, I'm just playing, y'all. I'm sorry, I'm 3126 02:50:39,560 --> 02:50:42,600 Speaker 21: messing around. It's called opening. You know, you guys got 3127 02:50:42,640 --> 02:50:44,360 Speaker 21: a great sit to you right here, all right, let's 3128 02:50:44,360 --> 02:50:47,720 Speaker 21: get to it. Festivals, like, am I right? You know, 3129 02:50:48,600 --> 02:50:51,680 Speaker 21: if you're anywhere within a five to ten mile radius 3130 02:50:51,720 --> 02:50:55,360 Speaker 21: of my age, I mean, festivals is like these are 3131 02:50:55,400 --> 02:50:59,120 Speaker 21: like a write of passage. You know, I am not 3132 02:50:59,240 --> 02:51:03,000 Speaker 21: only a goer but a festival performer and as an artist, 3133 02:51:03,120 --> 02:51:05,600 Speaker 21: it was like festivals were kind of in a lot 3134 02:51:05,600 --> 02:51:07,840 Speaker 21: of ways how I marked the years. There were people 3135 02:51:08,160 --> 02:51:11,200 Speaker 21: that I really only saw like once a year when 3136 02:51:11,240 --> 02:51:13,240 Speaker 21: I was at that festival, whether it was other acts, 3137 02:51:13,560 --> 02:51:16,480 Speaker 21: other bands, or even a lot of times the volunteers 3138 02:51:16,560 --> 02:51:19,000 Speaker 21: or the people that like put the event together, like 3139 02:51:19,120 --> 02:51:20,760 Speaker 21: you believe it or not, you kind of make friends, 3140 02:51:20,840 --> 02:51:22,640 Speaker 21: you know. And he's again these people, You're like, dang, 3141 02:51:22,640 --> 02:51:24,440 Speaker 21: I can't believe it was a whole year, you know. 3142 02:51:24,560 --> 02:51:26,640 Speaker 21: And it was a good way to make sure as 3143 02:51:26,640 --> 02:51:29,640 Speaker 21: an artist that you were making new music and had 3144 02:51:29,640 --> 02:51:31,720 Speaker 21: something new to perform. Oh and make sure you had 3145 02:51:31,720 --> 02:51:33,880 Speaker 21: some new merch because you know, if you played your 3146 02:51:33,879 --> 02:51:36,200 Speaker 21: cards right, if you've listened to my show, I've talked 3147 02:51:36,240 --> 02:51:39,080 Speaker 21: a lot about, like, you know, the science of festivals 3148 02:51:39,080 --> 02:51:42,160 Speaker 21: and as a performer of like this could either be 3149 02:51:42,360 --> 02:51:45,000 Speaker 21: a complete waste of time and money, if you're on 3150 02:51:45,200 --> 02:51:47,760 Speaker 21: at like the main stage at like twelve noon when 3151 02:51:47,800 --> 02:51:50,039 Speaker 21: it's like a trillion degrees outside, you know, but if 3152 02:51:50,040 --> 02:51:52,640 Speaker 21: you can get that right as the sun set, like 3153 02:51:52,640 --> 02:51:54,440 Speaker 21: if you're not the headliner, if you could get that 3154 02:51:54,680 --> 02:51:58,640 Speaker 21: right at sunset, right where the sun just breaks the 3155 02:51:58,720 --> 02:52:02,520 Speaker 21: horizon line coming down on that golden hour set. The 3156 02:52:02,560 --> 02:52:05,879 Speaker 21: crowd isn't shitfaced yet, you know, they're at the top 3157 02:52:05,920 --> 02:52:11,240 Speaker 21: of their MOLLI you feel you're riding the high. It 3158 02:52:11,320 --> 02:52:14,280 Speaker 21: is just settled in or whatever drugs that these people 3159 02:52:14,320 --> 02:52:17,360 Speaker 21: are on. They've kind of just settled in right there. 3160 02:52:17,680 --> 02:52:23,160 Speaker 21: They're relaxed, they're willing to sing along. Nobody's getting trample jet. 3161 02:52:23,360 --> 02:52:26,360 Speaker 21: It's not like the frenzy that kind of happens at 3162 02:52:26,360 --> 02:52:29,879 Speaker 21: the headliner situation, where like somebody might die. Shout out 3163 02:52:29,879 --> 02:52:32,360 Speaker 21: astro world. I say that not as a joke. I'm 3164 02:52:32,400 --> 02:52:36,240 Speaker 21: saying things can go wrong, but oh the experience. Man, Like, 3165 02:52:36,520 --> 02:52:38,360 Speaker 21: I don't know how old you are, and obviously you 3166 02:52:38,400 --> 02:52:40,959 Speaker 21: can't answer me. Do you remember the last like big 3167 02:52:41,000 --> 02:52:43,680 Speaker 21: festival you went to, you know, back when your knees 3168 02:52:43,680 --> 02:52:45,960 Speaker 21: were good and it was okay for you to stand 3169 02:52:46,080 --> 02:52:49,080 Speaker 21: for twelve hours and there's somebody, you know, having sexual 3170 02:52:49,120 --> 02:52:51,720 Speaker 21: intercourse in the porter potty. You know, you're stepping over 3171 02:52:51,840 --> 02:52:55,480 Speaker 21: barf right, and you just paid thirty dollars for a 3172 02:52:55,480 --> 02:52:57,800 Speaker 21: bottle of water, you know that you could stuff into 3173 02:52:57,840 --> 02:52:59,520 Speaker 21: your clear backpack because you weren't allowed to. 3174 02:52:59,520 --> 02:53:00,680 Speaker 20: Bring anything else in there. 3175 02:53:01,000 --> 02:53:05,320 Speaker 21: But man, that's probably a euphoria, especially if it's a 3176 02:53:05,320 --> 02:53:07,280 Speaker 21: group or a band that you really like that you 3177 02:53:07,400 --> 02:53:09,640 Speaker 21: saved up all year to go see. You know, some 3178 02:53:09,680 --> 02:53:11,800 Speaker 21: people were like festival operas, like that's their thing. They 3179 02:53:11,840 --> 02:53:15,000 Speaker 21: spend their summer going to music festivals. Since twenty twelve 3180 02:53:15,040 --> 02:53:18,760 Speaker 21: up to twenty fourteen, like the music fest has been guys, 3181 02:53:19,320 --> 02:53:21,920 Speaker 21: we've kind of been on borrow time. We've we lived 3182 02:53:22,000 --> 02:53:27,279 Speaker 21: through a music festival renaissance. According to NPR, since twenty thirteen, 3183 02:53:27,720 --> 02:53:32,840 Speaker 21: everything sold out, the four mega giants, right, so, Coachello, Bataru, 3184 02:53:33,200 --> 02:53:37,080 Speaker 21: Lolla Palooza in Chicago, Austin City Limits Music Festival in Texas. 3185 02:53:37,680 --> 02:53:40,640 Speaker 2: It was like this never. 3186 02:53:40,680 --> 02:53:45,200 Speaker 21: Ending flow of amazing, amazing events, and you know what, 3187 02:53:45,280 --> 02:53:48,280 Speaker 21: they were kind of affordable. In the next five years, 3188 02:53:48,520 --> 02:53:52,200 Speaker 21: you had things taken forth like Pitchfork in Chicago, Hangout 3189 02:53:52,320 --> 02:53:55,800 Speaker 21: Music Festival on the Beach, and the Gulf Shores, Outside Lands, 3190 02:53:56,480 --> 02:53:59,800 Speaker 21: Bali Music Mount o Asis Electronic Music. 3191 02:53:59,560 --> 02:54:01,720 Speaker 2: Festival, Forecastle Festival. 3192 02:54:01,959 --> 02:54:04,760 Speaker 21: Right, and I'm even gonna add in this before all 3193 02:54:04,840 --> 02:54:06,279 Speaker 21: this for hip hop stuff. 3194 02:54:06,080 --> 02:54:08,359 Speaker 2: Dude, we had rock the bells. 3195 02:54:08,680 --> 02:54:12,000 Speaker 21: Like we lived in a time where you could see 3196 02:54:12,160 --> 02:54:16,800 Speaker 21: all of your favorite artists in the most epic locations. 3197 02:54:17,320 --> 02:54:19,320 Speaker 21: You'd see people who if you were to try to 3198 02:54:19,360 --> 02:54:22,480 Speaker 21: buy their tour ticket, it would cost the same amount 3199 02:54:22,640 --> 02:54:25,040 Speaker 21: if they were headlining the thing. But you could see 3200 02:54:25,080 --> 02:54:27,879 Speaker 21: all your favorite acts. Part of this was because we 3201 02:54:27,959 --> 02:54:32,440 Speaker 21: listened to radio, you were exposed to more things. And 3202 02:54:32,480 --> 02:54:34,840 Speaker 21: it was probably the fun part about a lot of 3203 02:54:34,879 --> 02:54:38,560 Speaker 21: times about music festivals because you probably saw that act, 3204 02:54:38,600 --> 02:54:41,280 Speaker 21: your favorite band, your favorite rapper, you saw them at 3205 02:54:41,280 --> 02:54:44,120 Speaker 21: a Hole in the Wall five years ago, which was 3206 02:54:44,160 --> 02:54:46,080 Speaker 21: like ten bucks to get in, and you might have 3207 02:54:46,120 --> 02:54:47,800 Speaker 21: snuck in or got on the list because you knew 3208 02:54:47,840 --> 02:54:50,960 Speaker 21: somebody that knew the DJ. And now you're like, I 3209 02:54:51,160 --> 02:54:54,240 Speaker 21: followed this crew from when they were like playing a 3210 02:54:54,280 --> 02:54:56,240 Speaker 21: hole in the wall with ten people, where there was 3211 02:54:56,280 --> 02:54:59,760 Speaker 21: more staff at the bar than on this and now 3212 02:54:59,800 --> 02:55:02,200 Speaker 21: you're like, dude, you feel like you were a part 3213 02:55:02,240 --> 02:55:06,119 Speaker 21: of their evolution, Like you saw Chance at the subterranean. 3214 02:55:06,600 --> 02:55:09,840 Speaker 21: Now he's headline at Bonnarou. What a feeling. You're part 3215 02:55:09,879 --> 02:55:13,440 Speaker 21: of the story. Well, that's probably a relic of the past, 3216 02:55:13,800 --> 02:55:16,920 Speaker 21: and let's talk about it. So festivals for most of 3217 02:55:16,959 --> 02:55:20,440 Speaker 21: the last decade have been everywhere, like, whatever type of 3218 02:55:20,520 --> 02:55:23,199 Speaker 21: music you like, whatever subgenre, whatever part of the world 3219 02:55:23,240 --> 02:55:26,200 Speaker 21: you want to go to, there's a music festival that 3220 02:55:26,240 --> 02:55:27,600 Speaker 21: you can show up at. 3221 02:55:27,800 --> 02:55:28,080 Speaker 2: Now. 3222 02:55:28,720 --> 02:55:32,000 Speaker 21: In twenty twenty four, more than half of them across 3223 02:55:32,040 --> 02:55:35,120 Speaker 21: the world were canceled. I lost count on this page. 3224 02:55:35,120 --> 02:55:38,680 Speaker 21: I'm about to read to y'all from musicfestival wizard dot com. 3225 02:55:38,800 --> 02:55:42,680 Speaker 21: Festival's canceled so far in twenty twenty four. Okay, you're 3226 02:55:42,680 --> 02:55:45,760 Speaker 21: ready for this. Shindig twenty twenty four, Melt twenty twenty four, 3227 02:55:45,840 --> 02:55:51,560 Speaker 21: Sideways Festival, Nostock, Field Maneuvers, Tower z The Quintinine, Big Slap, 3228 02:55:51,879 --> 02:55:55,640 Speaker 21: Electric Zoo, Peach twenty twenty four. All the Music Festival 3229 02:55:55,680 --> 02:55:59,959 Speaker 21: Life Is Beautiful Festival, Country Thunder Florida, Swanee Roots Festival, 3230 02:56:00,360 --> 02:56:04,840 Speaker 21: edc China, Lucidity Festival in Santa Barbara, Desert Days in 3231 02:56:04,920 --> 02:56:09,039 Speaker 21: Lake Paris, Pinefest in the UK, Good Vibes Festival in 3232 02:56:09,200 --> 02:56:14,120 Speaker 21: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, Siattra Nevada World Music Festival in Booneville, 3233 02:56:14,480 --> 02:56:17,760 Speaker 21: El Dorado Music Festival in the UK, Sudden Little Thrills 3234 02:56:17,800 --> 02:56:22,840 Speaker 21: in Pittsburgh, Big Ridge Rock Fest in Virginia, Lollapalooza, Paris 3235 02:56:23,120 --> 02:56:27,279 Speaker 21: Music Midtown Atlanta, Lovers and Friends Fest in Las Vegas, 3236 02:56:27,440 --> 02:56:31,120 Speaker 21: which I was really sad about. Riverside Festival, Glasgow in 3237 02:56:31,240 --> 02:56:35,640 Speaker 21: Where Glasgow, Soul Bloom Sacramento tw Classic twenty twenty four 3238 02:56:35,720 --> 02:56:40,840 Speaker 21: in Belgium, Kaylamijas in kay Lamijas, Spain, Caldoora Music Festival 3239 02:56:40,840 --> 02:56:47,119 Speaker 21: in Queensland, Made an America Festival Philadelphia, Oblivion Access Austin, Texas, 3240 02:56:47,440 --> 02:56:51,039 Speaker 21: Meadows in the Mountains twenty twenty four in Bulgaria, Imagine 3241 02:56:51,040 --> 02:56:55,480 Speaker 21: Festival in Rome, Georgia. Splendor on the Grass in Byron Boy, Australia. 3242 02:56:55,720 --> 02:56:59,000 Speaker 21: Body and Soul Festival in Ireland, Moon Rose Festival. I'm 3243 02:56:59,040 --> 02:57:01,480 Speaker 21: tired of I'm not even done yet, I'm not even 3244 02:57:01,560 --> 02:57:06,240 Speaker 21: halfway through this thing. Festivals died in twenty twenty four. 3245 02:57:06,879 --> 02:57:09,440 Speaker 21: Digital News reports that sixty festivals in. 3246 02:57:09,440 --> 02:57:11,640 Speaker 2: The UK alone canceled. 3247 02:57:11,920 --> 02:57:14,840 Speaker 21: Ashley King wrote this article on August twenty third, twenty 3248 02:57:14,840 --> 02:57:17,240 Speaker 21: twenty four for Digital Music News, and in that she 3249 02:57:17,320 --> 02:57:20,520 Speaker 21: says the United Kingdom has lost one hundred and ninety 3250 02:57:20,560 --> 02:57:24,520 Speaker 21: two music festivals since twenty nineteen, according to the Association 3251 02:57:24,800 --> 02:57:28,760 Speaker 21: of Independent Festivals the AIF, which is a not for 3252 02:57:28,800 --> 02:57:32,240 Speaker 21: profit trade festival association that represents the interest of over 3253 02:57:32,320 --> 02:57:36,080 Speaker 21: two hundred independent UK music festivals that range from five 3254 02:57:36,240 --> 02:57:40,240 Speaker 21: hundred to eighty thousand people. The AIF estimates that the 3255 02:57:40,320 --> 02:57:43,600 Speaker 21: UK lost ninety six events during the COVID pandemic, thirty 3256 02:57:43,640 --> 02:57:47,480 Speaker 21: six festivals and in twenty twenty three, more than sixty 3257 02:57:47,720 --> 02:57:50,160 Speaker 21: to date in twenty twenty four. That brings the total 3258 02:57:50,280 --> 02:57:55,080 Speaker 21: number of festival closures either due to cancelation or postponement 3259 02:57:55,440 --> 02:57:59,200 Speaker 21: up to one hundred and ninety two since twenty nineteen, 3260 02:57:59,240 --> 02:58:03,840 Speaker 21: one hundred in ninety two festivals. Some may argue that, well, damn, 3261 02:58:03,879 --> 02:58:08,600 Speaker 21: you shouldn't have had that many festivals, Coachella, Lollapalooza, and 3262 02:58:08,720 --> 02:58:13,360 Speaker 21: of course the infamous Burning Man with the most on 3263 02:58:13,600 --> 02:58:17,400 Speaker 21: brand people that go that call themselves Burners. Now, I 3264 02:58:17,440 --> 02:58:19,880 Speaker 21: don't want to sit here and make fun of you burners, 3265 02:58:19,879 --> 02:58:21,640 Speaker 21: because I'm pretty sure a lot of y'all listen to 3266 02:58:21,680 --> 02:58:22,039 Speaker 21: this show. 3267 02:58:22,360 --> 02:58:23,800 Speaker 20: Number one and number two. 3268 02:58:24,200 --> 02:58:27,920 Speaker 21: I don't know if there's anybody more free, anybody more 3269 02:58:28,640 --> 02:58:32,360 Speaker 21: comfortable in their own skin. Listen, this might sound like 3270 02:58:32,400 --> 02:58:36,080 Speaker 21: a joke, Okay, I'm dead serious. It's like the white 3271 02:58:36,120 --> 02:58:39,520 Speaker 21: guy with dreadlocks. I mean, white people with dreads are 3272 02:58:40,720 --> 02:58:43,800 Speaker 21: just most of the time. Okay, Like this may sound 3273 02:58:43,840 --> 02:58:47,320 Speaker 21: like a joke, I'm deadly serious. They be so okay 3274 02:58:47,360 --> 02:58:50,400 Speaker 21: with themselves and will do whatever they got to do 3275 02:58:51,400 --> 02:58:54,679 Speaker 21: to continue to stay present and be cool with themselves. 3276 02:58:55,080 --> 02:58:58,520 Speaker 21: No notes, it's the guy doing hypostatic breath work, freestyling 3277 02:58:58,600 --> 02:59:00,720 Speaker 21: for way too long and the digital do section. You 3278 02:59:00,760 --> 02:59:04,560 Speaker 21: know what I'm saying, Like he's super okay with himself anyway. 3279 02:59:05,240 --> 02:59:09,120 Speaker 21: Burning Man, for the first time since twenty and eleven 3280 02:59:09,800 --> 02:59:13,039 Speaker 21: did not sell out for the first time, And the 3281 02:59:13,080 --> 02:59:15,720 Speaker 21: tickets are usually released in tears and some go on 3282 02:59:15,800 --> 02:59:18,000 Speaker 21: sale in the beginning of the year, and then this 3283 02:59:18,120 --> 02:59:21,120 Speaker 21: part I'm getting from the Guardian, but the main starting 3284 02:59:21,280 --> 02:59:25,240 Speaker 21: in April right, which typically gets snapped up in minutes, 3285 02:59:25,560 --> 02:59:29,400 Speaker 21: like Burning Man sells out in minutes. Seventy three thousand 3286 02:59:29,440 --> 02:59:32,720 Speaker 21: people are able to attend Burning Man, but this first 3287 02:59:32,720 --> 02:59:35,720 Speaker 21: time since twenty eleven, they did not sell out. Coachella, 3288 02:59:36,200 --> 02:59:40,600 Speaker 21: saying they saw a fifteen percent decline in tickets. It's 3289 02:59:40,600 --> 02:59:44,400 Speaker 21: the biggest festival in North America. Coachella is fifteen percent 3290 02:59:44,440 --> 02:59:47,600 Speaker 21: ticket decline. Festivals were a way for you to discover 3291 02:59:47,720 --> 02:59:49,240 Speaker 21: new music, to meet new friends. 3292 02:59:49,600 --> 02:59:51,600 Speaker 20: It's like camp for like your twenties. 3293 02:59:51,840 --> 02:59:55,280 Speaker 21: You know, you get to wear your dumb ass outfits, right, 3294 02:59:55,520 --> 02:59:57,119 Speaker 21: You get to stand out in the sun, You get 3295 02:59:57,160 --> 02:59:59,960 Speaker 21: to drink, you get to day drink, and you get 3296 03:00:00,240 --> 03:00:02,040 Speaker 21: just lose your mind for a little bit. 3297 03:00:02,240 --> 03:00:05,400 Speaker 2: This might be the end, the endling. 3298 03:00:05,680 --> 03:00:08,720 Speaker 21: You may have attended your last music festival as we 3299 03:00:08,840 --> 03:00:13,320 Speaker 21: know it. So the question is why who killed the 3300 03:00:13,400 --> 03:00:17,200 Speaker 21: music festival? Why is the festival not festiving? Why is 3301 03:00:17,240 --> 03:00:20,280 Speaker 21: it not festive? Why can't y'all sell no tickets? Do 3302 03:00:20,360 --> 03:00:23,200 Speaker 21: we not like music anymore? Do you like music still? 3303 03:00:23,320 --> 03:00:25,400 Speaker 21: I thought I still like Do you like music still? 3304 03:00:26,120 --> 03:00:27,440 Speaker 21: What the hell happened in y'all? 3305 03:00:28,000 --> 03:00:31,720 Speaker 2: Oh oh oh oh oh oh. 3306 03:00:42,360 --> 03:00:49,520 Speaker 21: Weird back back back back yack back uh uh. To 3307 03:00:49,680 --> 03:00:53,320 Speaker 21: understand the future as to what the hell happened, we 3308 03:00:53,440 --> 03:00:55,720 Speaker 21: have to ask ourselves how we. 3309 03:00:55,720 --> 03:00:57,800 Speaker 20: Even got here such a nerd? 3310 03:00:57,879 --> 03:00:58,200 Speaker 1: I am. 3311 03:00:59,000 --> 03:01:00,520 Speaker 21: I don't think I need to tell you what a 3312 03:01:00,640 --> 03:01:03,880 Speaker 21: music festival is because I mean, I think you know 3313 03:01:03,920 --> 03:01:08,320 Speaker 21: what it is. It's an incredibly overpriced concert that features 3314 03:01:08,520 --> 03:01:11,960 Speaker 21: maybe four groups that you like. Where you are going 3315 03:01:12,000 --> 03:01:17,800 Speaker 21: to stand outdoors somewhere brave the weather day, drink and 3316 03:01:17,840 --> 03:01:19,800 Speaker 21: then get to lose your mind for the last like 3317 03:01:19,840 --> 03:01:23,920 Speaker 21: three hours and just really enjoy, you know, a moment 3318 03:01:23,959 --> 03:01:27,120 Speaker 21: that you'll really never forget. Depending on how nasty and 3319 03:01:27,240 --> 03:01:29,800 Speaker 21: ratchet you are, how outside you are, you might look up. 3320 03:01:29,920 --> 03:01:31,360 Speaker 20: You know what I'm saying. I don't look. 3321 03:01:31,440 --> 03:01:34,680 Speaker 21: It's none of my business. I suggest you don't. That's 3322 03:01:34,720 --> 03:01:37,039 Speaker 21: just me being an old head. But either way, man, 3323 03:01:37,120 --> 03:01:40,600 Speaker 21: they're a great time. But please understand that festivals. Music 3324 03:01:40,640 --> 03:01:45,560 Speaker 21: festivals go like back to get this five eighty two 3325 03:01:45,680 --> 03:01:49,720 Speaker 21: b C. At least according to white people's history, because 3326 03:01:49,720 --> 03:01:53,880 Speaker 21: you know, silly you, nothing happened anywhere else except for Europe. 3327 03:01:54,160 --> 03:01:58,400 Speaker 21: There was no music festivals in Africa, Central South America, Asia, 3328 03:01:58,760 --> 03:01:59,520 Speaker 21: no nowhere else. 3329 03:01:59,560 --> 03:02:05,440 Speaker 20: You don't history started in Greece. We were too busy 3330 03:02:05,480 --> 03:02:06,440 Speaker 20: building pyramids. 3331 03:02:06,520 --> 03:02:09,959 Speaker 21: Right anyway, I'm gonna lead out put oh what every 3332 03:02:10,040 --> 03:02:12,800 Speaker 21: crack of you up. They'd be like the first music 3333 03:02:13,240 --> 03:02:19,320 Speaker 21: festival on record in ancient Greece. During the Pytheon Games, 3334 03:02:19,600 --> 03:02:24,240 Speaker 21: which is fine, it's it's fine, it's fine, but understand, 3335 03:02:24,600 --> 03:02:26,120 Speaker 21: ain't no way in the world, just the only one 3336 03:02:26,160 --> 03:02:30,040 Speaker 21: that ever happened anyway, So five eighty two BC, right, 3337 03:02:30,440 --> 03:02:34,080 Speaker 21: And like the Olympic Games, the Pytheon Games took place 3338 03:02:34,120 --> 03:02:38,640 Speaker 21: every four years and included poetry reading, a speech, right, 3339 03:02:38,760 --> 03:02:42,880 Speaker 21: and other musical game like competitions. People gathered to enjoy 3340 03:02:43,080 --> 03:02:48,600 Speaker 21: like hymns and instruments instrumental performances at the Apollo at 3341 03:02:48,600 --> 03:02:51,760 Speaker 21: the Apollo I'm So Black, dedicated to Apollo, which was 3342 03:02:51,800 --> 03:02:54,480 Speaker 21: the god of arts and music. Now fast forward to 3343 03:02:54,520 --> 03:02:57,840 Speaker 21: like the seventeenth century where you have like classical music 3344 03:02:57,920 --> 03:03:01,279 Speaker 21: festivals and like the type of like exclusivity right where 3345 03:03:01,320 --> 03:03:04,600 Speaker 21: like when in the seventeenth century when like classical music 3346 03:03:04,680 --> 03:03:09,000 Speaker 21: just basically ate Europe and music festivals originally were like 3347 03:03:09,280 --> 03:03:11,120 Speaker 21: supposed to be a gathering where people could, like what 3348 03:03:11,240 --> 03:03:12,800 Speaker 21: you think, gather and celebrate music. 3349 03:03:12,840 --> 03:03:15,199 Speaker 20: However, here's where it starts coming in a focus. 3350 03:03:15,240 --> 03:03:19,720 Speaker 21: The wealthcat was widening across Europe, so festivals gradually became 3351 03:03:20,240 --> 03:03:21,840 Speaker 21: kind of like out they are where they're a little 3352 03:03:21,840 --> 03:03:27,720 Speaker 21: bit exclusive, catering primarily to more higher educated upper class, 3353 03:03:28,040 --> 03:03:33,439 Speaker 21: and the shift became apparent as events became more exclusive 3354 03:03:33,959 --> 03:03:41,480 Speaker 21: and had increasingly restricted access. This is from ndlbeast dot com. 3355 03:03:41,600 --> 03:03:44,120 Speaker 21: They have a whole section on like the history of 3356 03:03:44,200 --> 03:03:47,920 Speaker 21: music festivals. One could argue like this like the prototype 3357 03:03:47,920 --> 03:03:50,600 Speaker 21: of like the VIP section. You know, I'm saying, like, 3358 03:03:50,640 --> 03:03:52,640 Speaker 21: you know, you can get the pit tickets or you 3359 03:03:52,640 --> 03:03:55,520 Speaker 21: could stand outside with the pores and just listen from 3360 03:03:55,560 --> 03:03:58,680 Speaker 21: the outside. So this trend kind of continued for centuries, 3361 03:03:58,720 --> 03:04:02,680 Speaker 21: where like elea class I think almost like was the 3362 03:04:02,720 --> 03:04:06,280 Speaker 21: beginning of the breaking of music in general. They were 3363 03:04:06,440 --> 03:04:11,039 Speaker 21: control the access to culture. I have a friend that 3364 03:04:11,080 --> 03:04:13,640 Speaker 21: wrote a book called Don't Be Precious. Now, me and 3365 03:04:13,680 --> 03:04:16,640 Speaker 21: this friend differ in a lot of ways, but he's 3366 03:04:16,680 --> 03:04:21,279 Speaker 21: just a punk rock dude, and his approach to making 3367 03:04:22,280 --> 03:04:27,800 Speaker 21: art is like you can't have this like restricting access 3368 03:04:27,879 --> 03:04:32,280 Speaker 21: right because it becomes It's just like upper class art 3369 03:04:32,360 --> 03:04:36,200 Speaker 21: is this creation of the leisure class because one they 3370 03:04:36,240 --> 03:04:38,920 Speaker 21: have the patron to pay for them to be able 3371 03:04:38,959 --> 03:04:41,280 Speaker 21: to sit down and contemplate the stars, like you got 3372 03:04:41,280 --> 03:04:44,160 Speaker 21: all precious about it, you feel me? So some of 3373 03:04:44,160 --> 03:04:46,440 Speaker 21: that has to do with again the wealth gap. So 3374 03:04:47,080 --> 03:04:51,160 Speaker 21: when you restrict access to hearing music. It draws deeper 3375 03:04:51,200 --> 03:04:54,720 Speaker 21: into the divides between like the educated upper class and 3376 03:04:54,760 --> 03:04:58,360 Speaker 21: then the traveling folk musicians who performed for the commoners. 3377 03:04:58,360 --> 03:05:01,480 Speaker 21: And that's like the stuff you see on you know, 3378 03:05:01,959 --> 03:05:05,280 Speaker 21: corny little movies. Then the world wars come right, and 3379 03:05:05,320 --> 03:05:09,160 Speaker 21: there's like a music revival, right. So when the First 3380 03:05:09,160 --> 03:05:14,000 Speaker 21: World War broke out, obviously change of lifestyle, meaning everything 3381 03:05:14,040 --> 03:05:18,320 Speaker 21: went to like, you know, war effort. So this is 3382 03:05:18,360 --> 03:05:21,760 Speaker 21: a really interesting quote. It says, I'm the same MDL beast. 3383 03:05:22,560 --> 03:05:25,760 Speaker 21: As society focused on wartime efforts and staying safe, the 3384 03:05:25,879 --> 03:05:29,879 Speaker 21: exclusivity of music festivals to the upper class disappeared. In 3385 03:05:29,879 --> 03:05:33,000 Speaker 21: a turn of events, the working class population was now 3386 03:05:33,000 --> 03:05:36,600 Speaker 21: turning to music more than ever. Jazz and folk emerged 3387 03:05:36,600 --> 03:05:39,960 Speaker 21: as popular genres right to avoid the scrutiny of the elite. 3388 03:05:40,040 --> 03:05:43,400 Speaker 21: Groups of musicians with similar tastes would gathering died bars 3389 03:05:43,400 --> 03:05:46,600 Speaker 21: and underground clubs. By the time the war had ended, 3390 03:05:46,959 --> 03:05:51,920 Speaker 21: jazz cemented itself as the genre of the era. So 3391 03:05:52,640 --> 03:05:57,800 Speaker 21: now we're talking Harlem Renaissance juke joints and the emergence 3392 03:05:57,840 --> 03:06:01,280 Speaker 21: of like again this we're black people come in a 3393 03:06:01,320 --> 03:06:06,000 Speaker 21: lot of times the role that just the all out 3394 03:06:06,080 --> 03:06:13,680 Speaker 21: anti black racism has unintentionally because of it, created some 3395 03:06:13,800 --> 03:06:18,240 Speaker 21: of the most dopest things, some of the most dopest 3396 03:06:18,280 --> 03:06:22,200 Speaker 21: American experiences. Well, I just read up on how with 3397 03:06:22,480 --> 03:06:27,480 Speaker 21: HBCUs which are historic black colleges that now white people 3398 03:06:27,560 --> 03:06:34,080 Speaker 21: trying to attend. They like your school of fund well, 3399 03:06:34,120 --> 03:06:38,000 Speaker 21: because we wasn't allowed in yours anyway, So let me continue. So, 3400 03:06:38,080 --> 03:06:40,480 Speaker 21: World War two played a pivotal role in creating the 3401 03:06:40,680 --> 03:06:46,160 Speaker 21: Newport Folk Festival, organized by Lewis and Elaine Lauryland, a 3402 03:06:46,200 --> 03:06:48,560 Speaker 21: couple met during World War Two and came together to 3403 03:06:48,600 --> 03:06:53,680 Speaker 21: revolutionized Rhode Island's music artistic community by promoting jazz. With 3404 03:06:53,720 --> 03:06:56,920 Speaker 21: the foundation in jazz and blues and country and pop music, 3405 03:06:56,959 --> 03:07:01,480 Speaker 21: they expanded to attract over eleven thousand people in nineteen 3406 03:07:01,560 --> 03:07:05,520 Speaker 21: fifty four. Then the sixties the birth of the modern 3407 03:07:05,560 --> 03:07:12,320 Speaker 21: music festival. Right obviously Woodstock, which was the invention Monterey 3408 03:07:12,360 --> 03:07:16,800 Speaker 21: International Pop Music Festival. This is the rock festival as 3409 03:07:16,840 --> 03:07:19,480 Speaker 21: we know it, Jimmy Hendrix, Janis Joplin who it was 3410 03:07:19,520 --> 03:07:23,920 Speaker 21: the place to be a cultural experience as we know it. Again, 3411 03:07:24,400 --> 03:07:27,160 Speaker 21: is that then you got like the Berlin Wall and 3412 03:07:27,240 --> 03:07:32,560 Speaker 21: the music revolution. This is where festivals become political and cultural. 3413 03:07:32,640 --> 03:07:37,600 Speaker 21: They become a statement, and a big one was in 3414 03:07:37,680 --> 03:07:41,520 Speaker 21: the nineties when they did the Berlin Wall tearing down 3415 03:07:41,600 --> 03:07:46,400 Speaker 21: music Festival, which was an amazing thing, right where underground stations, 3416 03:07:46,440 --> 03:07:49,800 Speaker 21: power plants, World War Two bunkers and abandoned buildings all 3417 03:07:49,879 --> 03:07:53,360 Speaker 21: started to serve as makeshift concert halls. This is why 3418 03:07:53,480 --> 03:07:57,840 Speaker 21: Europe became such a place for music festivals. It became 3419 03:07:58,360 --> 03:08:02,200 Speaker 21: a sign of free beat them in solidarity, and then 3420 03:08:02,520 --> 03:08:06,920 Speaker 21: the music festival took a shit They just. 3421 03:08:07,200 --> 03:08:08,359 Speaker 20: Died in the nineties. 3422 03:08:08,840 --> 03:08:14,600 Speaker 21: After this all can be explained in when they tried 3423 03:08:14,640 --> 03:08:19,039 Speaker 21: to redo Woodstock just a shit show with like Limp 3424 03:08:19,200 --> 03:08:24,560 Speaker 21: Biscuit and all them you a shit show. There's a 3425 03:08:24,640 --> 03:08:32,480 Speaker 21: documentary on Netflix about the absolute disaster that that new 3426 03:08:32,520 --> 03:08:36,480 Speaker 21: Woodstock was, y'all. I'm talking like y'all thought Astro World 3427 03:08:36,560 --> 03:08:38,879 Speaker 21: was bad where them kids was raising so much and 3428 03:08:38,920 --> 03:08:42,920 Speaker 21: people die. You talking about understaffed y'all think Firefest was 3429 03:08:42,959 --> 03:08:45,320 Speaker 21: a disaster, my nigger, Well, nah, I don't think anything 3430 03:08:45,400 --> 03:08:47,360 Speaker 21: was worse than Firefest, so far a good thing. It 3431 03:08:47,360 --> 03:08:53,560 Speaker 21: didn't happen like y'all remember Firefest. Oh lord, honestly, I 3432 03:08:53,600 --> 03:08:55,879 Speaker 21: can't believe I made it almost twenty minutes into this 3433 03:08:55,920 --> 03:08:59,800 Speaker 21: and then mentioned Firefest because it is the perfect example 3434 03:09:00,200 --> 03:09:05,720 Speaker 21: of what went wrong in the music festival world. Because, 3435 03:09:06,440 --> 03:09:09,640 Speaker 21: like I said, this disaster in the nineties to two thousands, 3436 03:09:09,920 --> 03:09:12,920 Speaker 21: if you were able to survive, like I said earlier, 3437 03:09:13,400 --> 03:09:17,200 Speaker 21: like the Bonnarous Coachella's Austin City limits, if you were 3438 03:09:17,240 --> 03:09:21,520 Speaker 21: able to survive Lollapalooza, then you came out the other 3439 03:09:21,720 --> 03:09:25,960 Speaker 21: end and became the go to places right tell your 3440 03:09:26,040 --> 03:09:28,760 Speaker 21: ride for folk music, you became the go to places 3441 03:09:29,200 --> 03:09:31,120 Speaker 21: that if you were going to try to have a 3442 03:09:31,160 --> 03:09:31,720 Speaker 21: career as. 3443 03:09:31,640 --> 03:09:33,680 Speaker 20: An artist, you have to play one of these festivals. 3444 03:09:33,720 --> 03:09:37,039 Speaker 21: No matter how much money you don't make at these things, 3445 03:09:37,200 --> 03:09:39,800 Speaker 21: you have to do it because this is where not 3446 03:09:39,920 --> 03:09:44,119 Speaker 21: only do you get the necessary co sign, you also 3447 03:09:44,200 --> 03:09:47,960 Speaker 21: get discovered. Like as far as fans like, you make 3448 03:09:48,000 --> 03:09:50,200 Speaker 21: new fans, you sell merge people, walk away with the 3449 03:09:50,240 --> 03:09:52,760 Speaker 21: T shirt. You're on the T shirt that says Bonnarou 3450 03:09:52,879 --> 03:09:56,840 Speaker 21: twenty twenty one and your name is so like even 3451 03:09:56,879 --> 03:09:59,960 Speaker 21: if you're way down on the bottom, grab your little screenshots, 3452 03:10:00,120 --> 03:10:03,960 Speaker 21: take your little Instagram photos, because now you're in the game. 3453 03:10:04,440 --> 03:10:07,120 Speaker 21: And the game it was which leads us to what 3454 03:10:07,280 --> 03:10:12,400 Speaker 21: went wrong because this was not only a money making endeavor. 3455 03:10:12,680 --> 03:10:18,119 Speaker 21: This was a money making endeavor in twenty fourteen. 3456 03:10:18,160 --> 03:10:20,320 Speaker 20: Are y'all ready for this? I don't think you ready 3457 03:10:20,320 --> 03:10:20,600 Speaker 20: for this? 3458 03:10:21,280 --> 03:10:25,560 Speaker 21: In the boom years, According to an analysis done by 3459 03:10:25,680 --> 03:10:29,760 Speaker 21: a Finance Buzz, in twenty fourteen, general emission prices for 3460 03:10:29,879 --> 03:10:35,720 Speaker 21: major and music festivals increased by fifty five percent. That 3461 03:10:35,840 --> 03:10:39,160 Speaker 21: outpaced just inflation period. Y'all jacked up the price. 3462 03:10:39,360 --> 03:10:40,360 Speaker 2: So listen. 3463 03:10:40,720 --> 03:10:43,760 Speaker 21: So if your jaw rule head ass, of course I'm 3464 03:10:43,760 --> 03:10:46,680 Speaker 21: gonna build a festival. You're looking at Burning Man, You're 3465 03:10:46,720 --> 03:10:49,440 Speaker 21: looking at Bonnarou, You're looking at all these things. 3466 03:10:49,480 --> 03:10:51,400 Speaker 2: You're like, bro, let's just get an island and make 3467 03:10:51,440 --> 03:10:53,960 Speaker 2: a festival. There's so much money to be made. 3468 03:10:54,200 --> 03:10:57,879 Speaker 21: But you know what, capitalism being a capitalism, it's gonna 3469 03:10:57,959 --> 03:10:58,920 Speaker 21: keep capitalism. 3470 03:10:59,320 --> 03:11:01,040 Speaker 20: Let's talk about what killed the festival? 3471 03:11:01,640 --> 03:11:02,520 Speaker 2: Oh oh. 3472 03:11:19,280 --> 03:11:21,880 Speaker 21: Oh, you see, I just did my own fade out 3473 03:11:21,920 --> 03:11:25,000 Speaker 21: and fade in music. Y'all see that. No, don't ask 3474 03:11:25,040 --> 03:11:30,640 Speaker 21: me what note that was? So what killed the festival? 3475 03:11:31,760 --> 03:11:34,280 Speaker 21: There well number of things. First of all, yo, ask 3476 03:11:34,320 --> 03:11:37,800 Speaker 21: for not going I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. We're 3477 03:11:37,840 --> 03:11:40,760 Speaker 21: not blaming the victims here. Some of these answers are 3478 03:11:40,760 --> 03:11:44,800 Speaker 21: pretty obvious, like again, you know Astra World like, but 3479 03:11:44,879 --> 03:11:47,360 Speaker 21: astral World is just a good picture of everything that 3480 03:11:47,400 --> 03:11:51,400 Speaker 21: went wrong in the concept of a music festival. 3481 03:11:51,600 --> 03:11:54,160 Speaker 20: So the first problem is, yeah, capitalism. 3482 03:11:54,640 --> 03:11:59,600 Speaker 21: Sometimes you are led to believe that what is will 3483 03:11:59,680 --> 03:12:05,640 Speaker 21: always right. That's what a stable economy lulls you into believing. 3484 03:12:06,480 --> 03:12:10,840 Speaker 21: But anybody that knows how money works, it's booms and busts. 3485 03:12:11,160 --> 03:12:15,160 Speaker 21: The bubble will pop, and how a bubble pops is 3486 03:12:15,280 --> 03:12:19,880 Speaker 21: almost always our own fault in this sense. The housing bubble, 3487 03:12:20,280 --> 03:12:22,520 Speaker 21: you know of two thousand and eight when your mama 3488 03:12:22,560 --> 03:12:24,879 Speaker 21: and him lost their house because the reality was they 3489 03:12:24,920 --> 03:12:26,959 Speaker 21: shouldn't have never got that loan in the first place. 3490 03:12:27,200 --> 03:12:29,800 Speaker 21: These people knew good and well that you was not 3491 03:12:29,920 --> 03:12:32,040 Speaker 21: able to keep up with that mortgage. But we were 3492 03:12:32,040 --> 03:12:34,879 Speaker 21: selling too many houses. It was going too good. So 3493 03:12:35,840 --> 03:12:39,720 Speaker 21: the thing was for almost the you know, almost a decade, 3494 03:12:40,040 --> 03:12:43,480 Speaker 21: you couldn't make enough festivals. The industry couldn't keep up 3495 03:12:43,480 --> 03:12:47,720 Speaker 21: with the demand. And yo, this the blog error. This 3496 03:12:47,879 --> 03:12:53,039 Speaker 21: the two Doe Boys, Yeah, Pitchfork like this the blog error. 3497 03:12:53,080 --> 03:12:53,640 Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying. 3498 03:12:53,680 --> 03:12:55,560 Speaker 20: When Fader was like a thing that you would want 3499 03:12:55,560 --> 03:12:56,000 Speaker 20: to go suit. 3500 03:12:56,160 --> 03:12:58,800 Speaker 21: So like it all kind of worked together around this 3501 03:12:58,920 --> 03:13:01,560 Speaker 21: time before all these spots got bought out hip Hop 3502 03:13:01,640 --> 03:13:03,959 Speaker 21: d X, like all these pages. 3503 03:13:03,600 --> 03:13:04,360 Speaker 20: Got bought out. 3504 03:13:04,520 --> 03:13:07,039 Speaker 21: Like I said before, it was like this boom in 3505 03:13:07,040 --> 03:13:11,400 Speaker 21: twenty fourteen of a trillion festivals that started happening. Now 3506 03:13:11,920 --> 03:13:15,879 Speaker 21: what happened was ticket prices. This is the first one. 3507 03:13:16,360 --> 03:13:19,039 Speaker 21: We're making so much money. You realize, Dang, if I 3508 03:13:19,120 --> 03:13:21,160 Speaker 21: charge a hundred, I bet you I could charge two hundred. 3509 03:13:21,240 --> 03:13:22,600 Speaker 21: If I charged two on it, I bet you I 3510 03:13:22,640 --> 03:13:25,360 Speaker 21: could charge foe hundred because if you charge foe hun 3511 03:13:25,400 --> 03:13:27,640 Speaker 21: and then I could argue I'm getting bigger acts. So 3512 03:13:27,760 --> 03:13:31,240 Speaker 21: in the boom years, according to this analysis by Finance Buzz, 3513 03:13:31,480 --> 03:13:36,760 Speaker 21: ticket prices since twenty fourteen for most music festivals increased 3514 03:13:36,800 --> 03:13:43,280 Speaker 21: by fifty five percent. Like that's super outpacing even inflation 3515 03:13:43,800 --> 03:13:46,920 Speaker 21: in the same time period. This isn't like cost the 3516 03:13:47,000 --> 03:13:49,320 Speaker 21: living type shit type beat. 3517 03:13:49,600 --> 03:13:52,160 Speaker 20: No oh, I'm raping y'all. 3518 03:13:52,520 --> 03:13:56,280 Speaker 21: Do you know that Burning Man costs five hundred and 3519 03:13:56,440 --> 03:13:59,680 Speaker 21: seventy five dollars to go to If you was going, 3520 03:14:00,280 --> 03:14:02,320 Speaker 21: you was probably gonna make some sort of like art 3521 03:14:02,360 --> 03:14:04,920 Speaker 21: installation to destroy you doing that all your own money, 3522 03:14:05,200 --> 03:14:05,959 Speaker 21: which meant what. 3523 03:14:06,440 --> 03:14:08,359 Speaker 2: Same thing happened in the seventeenth century. 3524 03:14:08,440 --> 03:14:11,480 Speaker 21: It just becomes a place for the elite because can't 3525 03:14:11,480 --> 03:14:14,000 Speaker 21: nobody else afford to go. You know what else happened 3526 03:14:14,040 --> 03:14:16,959 Speaker 21: to a lot of festivals is corporation's bottom. You know 3527 03:14:17,000 --> 03:14:20,480 Speaker 21: who bought complex BuzzFeed, and you know who bought it 3528 03:14:20,520 --> 03:14:26,080 Speaker 21: from BuzzFeed n Work nt WRK. 3529 03:14:27,000 --> 03:14:28,320 Speaker 2: It's an investment firm. 3530 03:14:28,680 --> 03:14:32,440 Speaker 21: You know who owns the Pitchfork festival, condy Nast a 3531 03:14:32,600 --> 03:14:37,080 Speaker 21: media company. They bought the blog and folded it into GQ. 3532 03:14:38,160 --> 03:14:41,200 Speaker 2: It's just a corporation. Capitalism. 3533 03:14:41,480 --> 03:14:45,879 Speaker 21: Capitalism broke the festivals under the banner of capitalism, not 3534 03:14:46,040 --> 03:14:49,280 Speaker 21: so much the cost of the ticket and the soaring 3535 03:14:49,440 --> 03:14:53,160 Speaker 21: cost of living. It also costs too much to make 3536 03:14:53,200 --> 03:14:57,720 Speaker 21: the festival. According to John Roston, he's the CEO that AIF, 3537 03:14:57,840 --> 03:15:02,600 Speaker 21: the Independent Association of Festivals. He says, the toilet higher 3538 03:15:02,760 --> 03:15:05,720 Speaker 21: I just need to buy Porter potties. In twenty twenty 3539 03:15:05,720 --> 03:15:09,640 Speaker 21: one was twenty eight thousand dollars for the exact same 3540 03:15:09,800 --> 03:15:13,280 Speaker 21: amount of toilets at twenty twenty four is fifty four 3541 03:15:13,440 --> 03:15:20,760 Speaker 21: thousand dollars. That's just the toilets. You know what happened 3542 03:15:20,879 --> 03:15:25,000 Speaker 21: at Astro World. He can't have enough security. It costs 3543 03:15:25,080 --> 03:15:30,720 Speaker 21: so much, you honestly cannot afford to put together a 3544 03:15:30,840 --> 03:15:38,400 Speaker 21: festival that will be alluring enough to consumers to justify 3545 03:15:38,520 --> 03:15:41,040 Speaker 21: spending that much money. So what do you get? A 3546 03:15:41,160 --> 03:15:43,640 Speaker 21: gang of corporate sponsors? And you know what, a gang 3547 03:15:43,680 --> 03:15:47,039 Speaker 21: of corporate sponsors at a music festival is whack. It's 3548 03:15:47,080 --> 03:15:50,280 Speaker 21: a horrible ass experience because you're just watching a gang 3549 03:15:50,280 --> 03:15:53,039 Speaker 21: of commercials. Sometimes it just be labels who be putting 3550 03:15:53,040 --> 03:15:54,880 Speaker 21: on these artists that they trying to break. And then 3551 03:15:54,920 --> 03:15:58,360 Speaker 21: the artists be trash. They don't be trash because they trash. 3552 03:15:58,400 --> 03:16:01,959 Speaker 21: They be trash because they're not ready for this size stage. 3553 03:16:02,720 --> 03:16:04,680 Speaker 21: They ain't put in the work. They didn't do the 3554 03:16:04,760 --> 03:16:08,840 Speaker 21: you know Gurney Illinois experience that I think I've told before, 3555 03:16:08,920 --> 03:16:11,520 Speaker 21: what is the most terrifying experience I've ever had on tour? 3556 03:16:11,600 --> 03:16:14,199 Speaker 2: You don't had him experiences. 3557 03:16:14,360 --> 03:16:17,080 Speaker 21: You ain't played shows when it's more people at the bar, 3558 03:16:17,760 --> 03:16:19,720 Speaker 21: or it's more people that work there then come to 3559 03:16:19,760 --> 03:16:22,600 Speaker 21: see you. You're not ready for no festival stage, so 3560 03:16:22,600 --> 03:16:23,920 Speaker 21: it's just not fun for the concer. 3561 03:16:23,959 --> 03:16:26,360 Speaker 2: So I'm not gonna buy it. You can't justify this price. 3562 03:16:26,680 --> 03:16:30,039 Speaker 21: If I'm gonna spend that much money, I need to really, 3563 03:16:30,280 --> 03:16:31,840 Speaker 21: really really. 3564 03:16:31,840 --> 03:16:35,000 Speaker 20: Really like this man. This need to be my favorite artist. 3565 03:16:35,360 --> 03:16:38,480 Speaker 21: I'm not gonna stand around twelve hours pay this much 3566 03:16:38,520 --> 03:16:40,560 Speaker 21: money to really only see one act I like. 3567 03:16:41,040 --> 03:16:41,160 Speaker 7: That. 3568 03:16:41,160 --> 03:16:42,360 Speaker 20: Don't make no damn sense. 3569 03:16:42,560 --> 03:16:44,560 Speaker 21: And we'll talk about why they only like that one 3570 03:16:44,680 --> 03:16:46,000 Speaker 21: artist a little bit later. 3571 03:16:46,200 --> 03:16:47,720 Speaker 20: So remember this point I'm making. 3572 03:16:48,240 --> 03:16:51,119 Speaker 21: The second and most obvious one is COVID, which leads 3573 03:16:51,160 --> 03:16:53,720 Speaker 21: into the third and fourth. You had to cancel stuff. 3574 03:16:53,920 --> 03:16:58,680 Speaker 21: Nobody knew this was coming. Like the el's companies took, 3575 03:16:59,120 --> 03:17:01,920 Speaker 21: I took person answer the tour. Not only I canceled 3576 03:17:01,920 --> 03:17:04,440 Speaker 21: the tour, I released the poetry book that I couldn't tour. 3577 03:17:04,959 --> 03:17:09,440 Speaker 21: I mean I personally lost tens of thousands, maybe even 3578 03:17:09,560 --> 03:17:13,920 Speaker 21: hundreds of thousands of dollars in touring revenue, in book sales, 3579 03:17:14,200 --> 03:17:17,720 Speaker 21: in merch sales, and all of it. Like I lost 3580 03:17:18,320 --> 03:17:21,240 Speaker 21: so much because you just had to, and I'm still 3581 03:17:21,280 --> 03:17:23,600 Speaker 21: trying to get that money back. A lot of festivals 3582 03:17:23,640 --> 03:17:26,360 Speaker 21: just have never been able to make their money back 3583 03:17:26,440 --> 03:17:30,280 Speaker 21: from what they lost, so there's not enough money now. Obviously, 3584 03:17:30,400 --> 03:17:32,440 Speaker 21: when the pandemic ended. There was a lot of pent 3585 03:17:32,600 --> 03:17:35,280 Speaker 21: up energy to be like, I need to go outside. 3586 03:17:35,680 --> 03:17:40,640 Speaker 21: But that's because me and you didn't spend two years 3587 03:17:40,640 --> 03:17:43,640 Speaker 21: of our high school experience, our two first years of 3588 03:17:43,680 --> 03:17:46,800 Speaker 21: college stuck at home. Remember that's the time when you 3589 03:17:46,840 --> 03:17:49,600 Speaker 21: get the taste to go outside, when you start finding 3590 03:17:49,640 --> 03:17:53,520 Speaker 21: your drinking buddies, yo outside friends, your music friends. You 3591 03:17:53,600 --> 03:17:57,440 Speaker 21: have to remember those years, dude, dude, those years are 3592 03:17:57,480 --> 03:18:01,360 Speaker 21: when you're discovering. All research says is like your taste 3593 03:18:01,440 --> 03:18:03,800 Speaker 21: in music happens in those years. 3594 03:18:04,040 --> 03:18:04,200 Speaker 11: Right. 3595 03:18:04,320 --> 03:18:06,879 Speaker 2: If I were to ask you, what's your favorite area 3596 03:18:06,879 --> 03:18:07,360 Speaker 2: of music? 3597 03:18:07,520 --> 03:18:10,720 Speaker 21: Most likely it's not always, but most likely it was 3598 03:18:10,840 --> 03:18:14,240 Speaker 21: like the music you listened to in the eleventh grade, 3599 03:18:14,360 --> 03:18:16,959 Speaker 21: it's probably your favorite era. Whatever you was listening to 3600 03:18:17,040 --> 03:18:20,080 Speaker 21: the n is probably still your favorite era. Now, obviously 3601 03:18:20,440 --> 03:18:23,480 Speaker 21: that's not true for everybody, but hey, if you were seventeen, 3602 03:18:23,560 --> 03:18:25,480 Speaker 21: you were discovering new music, you want to go to 3603 03:18:25,560 --> 03:18:27,840 Speaker 21: like the Cornerhouse of Blues, right, you know this is 3604 03:18:28,000 --> 03:18:29,520 Speaker 21: obviously I'm California centric. 3605 03:18:29,560 --> 03:18:30,760 Speaker 20: You wanted to hit the Glasshouse. 3606 03:18:30,800 --> 03:18:30,920 Speaker 8: Man. 3607 03:18:30,959 --> 03:18:33,400 Speaker 21: Could you just heard about this new band Little Stings 3608 03:18:33,440 --> 03:18:36,959 Speaker 21: like that, The Dragonfly Whiskey of Go Go the viper room. 3609 03:18:37,200 --> 03:18:40,440 Speaker 21: All these like smaller spots that when for us out 3610 03:18:40,440 --> 03:18:42,280 Speaker 21: of La these were like rights of passage. 3611 03:18:42,440 --> 03:18:44,000 Speaker 20: This is how you get to say I. 3612 03:18:43,920 --> 03:18:44,640 Speaker 2: Saw them win. 3613 03:18:45,240 --> 03:18:47,320 Speaker 21: I knew who Will I Am was for the Black 3614 03:18:47,320 --> 03:18:50,280 Speaker 21: Eyed Peas because I saw him at the little temple 3615 03:18:50,480 --> 03:18:52,760 Speaker 21: which is now called the Virgil when he did a 3616 03:18:52,800 --> 03:18:55,240 Speaker 21: beat battle. They were at the corner. You know what 3617 03:18:55,280 --> 03:18:59,879 Speaker 21: I'm saying. And it was fun. I knew Foster the people. 3618 03:19:00,000 --> 03:19:03,160 Speaker 21: They're in San Diego. You would just drive down like 3619 03:19:03,360 --> 03:19:06,840 Speaker 21: just at the gas lamp, like Leon bridges Hell he 3620 03:19:06,959 --> 03:19:09,600 Speaker 21: opened for us, you know what I'm saying. Like again, 3621 03:19:09,640 --> 03:19:11,600 Speaker 21: like we said in the earlier these these bands that 3622 03:19:11,680 --> 03:19:12,840 Speaker 21: you was passionate about. 3623 03:19:13,080 --> 03:19:15,640 Speaker 20: You was seventeen with your little emo hair swooped over 3624 03:19:15,640 --> 03:19:16,120 Speaker 20: your eyes. 3625 03:19:16,200 --> 03:19:18,880 Speaker 21: This is you was crying over you understand what I'm saying, 3626 03:19:18,959 --> 03:19:22,160 Speaker 21: Like hugging onto your little iPad, you know, doing that 3627 03:19:22,200 --> 03:19:24,400 Speaker 21: MySpace picture when you looking down. You know it's the 3628 03:19:24,400 --> 03:19:26,840 Speaker 21: white people think like this is when you went to 3629 03:19:26,879 --> 03:19:31,400 Speaker 21: go see them. If that era for you was a pandemic, 3630 03:19:32,120 --> 03:19:34,400 Speaker 21: you didn't acquire a taste for going out like that. 3631 03:19:34,879 --> 03:19:39,960 Speaker 21: You saw concerts inside a fortnite. So what I'm saying 3632 03:19:40,080 --> 03:19:43,280 Speaker 21: is one of the biggest things about gen Z is 3633 03:19:43,760 --> 03:19:44,600 Speaker 21: they don't go out. 3634 03:19:46,240 --> 03:19:49,880 Speaker 2: It's just it's just the reality. Not only do it. 3635 03:19:49,959 --> 03:19:50,920 Speaker 2: Ain't got no money. 3636 03:19:51,360 --> 03:19:54,959 Speaker 21: They ain't got no money because again inflation and finances, 3637 03:19:55,000 --> 03:19:58,160 Speaker 21: the cost of living is insane. But look it, gen 3638 03:19:58,240 --> 03:20:00,360 Speaker 21: Z don't drink like we used to drink. They do 3639 03:20:00,400 --> 03:20:03,600 Speaker 21: fewer drugs, they have less sex. Part of that is 3640 03:20:03,640 --> 03:20:06,360 Speaker 21: because one they Hella anxious and I. 3641 03:20:06,320 --> 03:20:07,080 Speaker 20: Don't blame them. 3642 03:20:07,160 --> 03:20:10,039 Speaker 21: I'm looking at my daughter now and I'm like, I'm sorry, baby, 3643 03:20:10,160 --> 03:20:12,199 Speaker 21: you probably not gonna buy no house ever. 3644 03:20:12,680 --> 03:20:14,440 Speaker 2: I don't even know when you're gonna move out. I 3645 03:20:14,480 --> 03:20:16,400 Speaker 2: don't know what to tell you. I'm not mad. 3646 03:20:16,440 --> 03:20:18,000 Speaker 21: I ain't gonna push you out of this house because 3647 03:20:18,040 --> 03:20:20,080 Speaker 21: where you're gonna go, you're gonna get seven roommates. 3648 03:20:20,280 --> 03:20:22,600 Speaker 2: I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry. 3649 03:20:23,400 --> 03:20:26,360 Speaker 21: They do fewer drugs, they drink less, and they don't 3650 03:20:26,400 --> 03:20:31,000 Speaker 21: go nowhere because one, they anxious as hell. They nervous 3651 03:20:31,000 --> 03:20:33,840 Speaker 21: around being around that many people. And if they are 3652 03:20:33,920 --> 03:20:36,920 Speaker 21: gonna go out, if you ask them, the number one 3653 03:20:36,959 --> 03:20:37,640 Speaker 21: thing they say. 3654 03:20:37,560 --> 03:20:38,840 Speaker 20: Is like, I ain't got nobody to go with. 3655 03:20:39,200 --> 03:20:40,600 Speaker 21: I mean I could go I ain't got nobody to 3656 03:20:40,600 --> 03:20:42,199 Speaker 21: go with you, cause you ain't got no friends. 3657 03:20:42,240 --> 03:20:44,240 Speaker 2: You don't go nowhere, right. 3658 03:20:44,879 --> 03:20:47,720 Speaker 21: I've been looking at my own child, like why you here, Cuz, 3659 03:20:47,800 --> 03:20:49,959 Speaker 21: like don't you You're a go nowhere. 3660 03:20:50,760 --> 03:20:54,760 Speaker 20: She's starting to now, but listen, you gotta. 3661 03:20:54,720 --> 03:20:57,880 Speaker 2: Really really, really really really want to see this person 3662 03:20:58,160 --> 03:20:59,240 Speaker 2: that you're going to see. 3663 03:20:59,480 --> 03:21:04,320 Speaker 21: She bought Billie Eilis tickets in February the concert next month. 3664 03:21:04,440 --> 03:21:07,840 Speaker 21: She decided, if I'm gonna spend this money this one, 3665 03:21:07,840 --> 03:21:11,560 Speaker 21: I'm gonna spend it on right, because it's worth her money. 3666 03:21:11,600 --> 03:21:14,360 Speaker 21: She loves them, she loves her. She got the album. 3667 03:21:14,560 --> 03:21:17,039 Speaker 21: She went to the listening party. She's like, this is 3668 03:21:17,040 --> 03:21:19,160 Speaker 21: who I'm gonna go see. They don't look and see 3669 03:21:19,160 --> 03:21:21,760 Speaker 21: who's playing, or just pull up an adult music spot 3670 03:21:21,800 --> 03:21:23,240 Speaker 21: and just be like, oh, Wane, who's play. I'm gonna 3671 03:21:23,240 --> 03:21:25,240 Speaker 21: discover new music now that don't happen. You can't put 3672 03:21:25,280 --> 03:21:27,520 Speaker 21: on no festival if people ain't willing to come, which 3673 03:21:27,640 --> 03:21:30,040 Speaker 21: leads me to one of the other problems they did, 3674 03:21:30,600 --> 03:21:35,080 Speaker 21: which is the music industry itself is shocked themselves in 3675 03:21:35,120 --> 03:21:39,440 Speaker 21: the foot because the big dogs, just like I said, 3676 03:21:39,440 --> 03:21:42,920 Speaker 21: happened in the seventeen hundreds are doing fine. If Live 3677 03:21:43,040 --> 03:21:48,520 Speaker 21: Nation and ticket Master own every venue, they only gonna 3678 03:21:48,520 --> 03:21:51,600 Speaker 21: put the artists that they won't own their it costs 3679 03:21:51,640 --> 03:21:52,320 Speaker 21: too much. 3680 03:21:53,360 --> 03:21:55,320 Speaker 2: So they're like, oh, I don't understand what's going on 3681 03:21:55,360 --> 03:21:56,160 Speaker 2: with y'all festivals. 3682 03:21:56,200 --> 03:21:59,160 Speaker 21: I know we doing all right, because if you are 3683 03:21:59,200 --> 03:22:04,240 Speaker 21: an industry artist with the machine behind you, number one, 3684 03:22:05,040 --> 03:22:08,720 Speaker 21: you don't need a festival. You booked the Greek Theater yourself. 3685 03:22:09,120 --> 03:22:13,039 Speaker 21: Why would I allow myself as an artist for you 3686 03:22:13,160 --> 03:22:16,640 Speaker 21: to pay me. Guess who turned down Coachella next year? 3687 03:22:17,320 --> 03:22:20,600 Speaker 21: Rihanna and Kendrick. Why would either of them play that 3688 03:22:20,680 --> 03:22:23,080 Speaker 21: when they know they can be the only artist and 3689 03:22:23,160 --> 03:22:26,560 Speaker 21: sell just as many tickets. Kendrick played Staples. I'm calling 3690 03:22:26,560 --> 03:22:28,680 Speaker 21: his Staples because I'm from La. I know it's just 3691 03:22:28,720 --> 03:22:33,199 Speaker 21: a corporation. He played Staples four nights in a row 3692 03:22:33,560 --> 03:22:36,680 Speaker 21: where the Lakers played, but that was after doing four 3693 03:22:36,760 --> 03:22:40,640 Speaker 21: nights at the Honda Center in Orange County. These are 3694 03:22:40,760 --> 03:22:45,000 Speaker 21: eight Southern California shows, sold them all out. Why the 3695 03:22:45,120 --> 03:22:48,440 Speaker 21: hell would I give that money to Coachella when I 3696 03:22:48,440 --> 03:22:51,760 Speaker 21: could do it myself. Live Nation already taking a huge 3697 03:22:51,800 --> 03:22:55,640 Speaker 21: ass cut, Ticketmaster already taking a huge ass cut. Scalper's 3698 03:22:55,640 --> 03:22:59,120 Speaker 21: already taken a huge ass cut. There's no reason for 3699 03:22:59,160 --> 03:23:02,039 Speaker 21: me to give my time and my ticket draw to 3700 03:23:02,160 --> 03:23:04,640 Speaker 21: you when they can all go to myself. You did 3701 03:23:04,640 --> 03:23:08,080 Speaker 21: this to yourself music industry by locking out all the 3702 03:23:08,120 --> 03:23:11,240 Speaker 21: small venues. You know what else the music industry did 3703 03:23:11,240 --> 03:23:16,119 Speaker 21: to itself, streaming the algorithm that also killed the festival. 3704 03:23:16,680 --> 03:23:20,959 Speaker 21: You know why because you're fed the same music. Algorithm 3705 03:23:21,000 --> 03:23:25,000 Speaker 21: says you like this, you probably don't like that, which 3706 03:23:25,080 --> 03:23:27,520 Speaker 21: means we know all people be like music all sound 3707 03:23:27,560 --> 03:23:30,440 Speaker 21: the same because it does. Because the goal is to 3708 03:23:30,640 --> 03:23:34,840 Speaker 21: play music that feeds the algorithm. You create music that 3709 03:23:34,920 --> 03:23:37,280 Speaker 21: gets your streaming numbers up. This is the point I 3710 03:23:37,360 --> 03:23:39,280 Speaker 21: was making earlier. While you like, I don't know nobody 3711 03:23:39,280 --> 03:23:41,680 Speaker 21: else on this thing, and I'm only really concerned about 3712 03:23:41,720 --> 03:23:42,240 Speaker 21: the headliner. 3713 03:23:42,280 --> 03:23:43,760 Speaker 20: This is the point I was making earlier. 3714 03:23:44,200 --> 03:23:48,440 Speaker 21: Algorithm, you create music that works on TikTok so music 3715 03:23:48,720 --> 03:23:51,680 Speaker 21: has this formula. They did the same thing with coffee shops. 3716 03:23:51,840 --> 03:23:54,920 Speaker 21: You know why coffee shops look like brutaliss mid century modern, 3717 03:23:55,360 --> 03:23:59,439 Speaker 21: all of them Instagram. We're all looking at the same aesthetic, 3718 03:24:00,080 --> 03:24:03,000 Speaker 21: So therefore all coffee shops look the same. The same 3719 03:24:03,000 --> 03:24:08,560 Speaker 21: thing happened with music the algorithm. So you have these entire, 3720 03:24:09,480 --> 03:24:11,520 Speaker 21: very specific niches. 3721 03:24:12,040 --> 03:24:15,439 Speaker 2: But can everyone in your weird niche? 3722 03:24:15,640 --> 03:24:19,440 Speaker 21: Are there thirty artists in your very weird niche that 3723 03:24:19,480 --> 03:24:23,160 Speaker 21: can bring ten thousand people out to a field. No, 3724 03:24:23,480 --> 03:24:26,720 Speaker 21: because there's only forty of y'all that like this music 3725 03:24:27,120 --> 03:24:32,360 Speaker 21: that's online streaming. There's no human editorial, there's no DJ 3726 03:24:32,560 --> 03:24:34,480 Speaker 21: that's saying, yo, dude, lo, look at this. 3727 03:24:34,520 --> 03:24:35,160 Speaker 20: No, look at this. 3728 03:24:35,560 --> 03:24:38,280 Speaker 21: You're stuck to doing it yourself and hopefully you can 3729 03:24:38,280 --> 03:24:39,480 Speaker 21: climb out your algorithm. 3730 03:24:39,600 --> 03:24:39,720 Speaker 11: Right. 3731 03:24:40,080 --> 03:24:44,680 Speaker 21: J McDonald says, a genre unfocused festival poster lineup starts 3732 03:24:44,720 --> 03:24:47,279 Speaker 21: to just look like a playlist that has been made 3733 03:24:47,600 --> 03:24:51,440 Speaker 21: and personalized for somebody else. Okay, you want to do 3734 03:24:51,480 --> 03:24:53,840 Speaker 21: a genre specific one, let's just say, okay, k pop, 3735 03:24:54,240 --> 03:24:56,560 Speaker 21: you're finna fly on him acts from Korea? How much 3736 03:24:56,560 --> 03:24:58,879 Speaker 21: you're gonna sell all these tickets for? How many K 3737 03:24:58,920 --> 03:25:01,400 Speaker 21: pop acts do you get? You don't book nobody local? 3738 03:25:01,600 --> 03:25:04,280 Speaker 21: Do you how much money that would cost? Or you 3739 03:25:04,320 --> 03:25:05,840 Speaker 21: say I'm gonna do a K pop day? 3740 03:25:06,360 --> 03:25:08,600 Speaker 2: All right? So you do a three day festival. 3741 03:25:08,600 --> 03:25:12,199 Speaker 21: One day's k pop, one day's DM, one day's hip hop, Uh, 3742 03:25:12,240 --> 03:25:14,640 Speaker 21: nobody's boy a three day pass, so one day might 3743 03:25:14,680 --> 03:25:17,560 Speaker 21: be trash, And how do you build it? What does 3744 03:25:17,560 --> 03:25:20,320 Speaker 21: the flyer look like? I don't know half of these people. 3745 03:25:20,400 --> 03:25:23,920 Speaker 21: I ain't never even heard of that. No single act 3746 03:25:24,200 --> 03:25:27,760 Speaker 21: can sell a festival. And if you try to do 3747 03:25:27,800 --> 03:25:30,279 Speaker 21: a multi different act thing, it's just gonna. 3748 03:25:30,000 --> 03:25:31,359 Speaker 2: Confuse the consumer. 3749 03:25:32,120 --> 03:25:34,440 Speaker 21: So if you're putting on the festival, your only option 3750 03:25:34,680 --> 03:25:37,280 Speaker 21: is to just go big. This has to do with money, 3751 03:25:37,520 --> 03:25:42,200 Speaker 21: So you are going to overspend, right, because it's like, 3752 03:25:42,440 --> 03:25:45,240 Speaker 21: how are you gonna get people here? You you get Taylor Swift? 3753 03:25:45,480 --> 03:25:47,360 Speaker 21: Do you know how much money you got to offer 3754 03:25:47,440 --> 03:25:50,160 Speaker 21: somebody like a Taylor Swift for her to give her 3755 03:25:50,240 --> 03:25:53,879 Speaker 21: performance to your festival rather than just to do her 3756 03:25:53,920 --> 03:25:59,240 Speaker 21: own show. And the consumer says, again, is this worth 3757 03:25:59,320 --> 03:26:03,039 Speaker 21: my money? I'm willing to throw this money at this 3758 03:26:03,120 --> 03:26:05,400 Speaker 21: big act because that's what the algorith that's who I know. 3759 03:26:05,920 --> 03:26:09,000 Speaker 21: They're not gonna risk no more because music discovery is 3760 03:26:09,040 --> 03:26:11,560 Speaker 21: now algorithmic. You're not just gonna go pull up at 3761 03:26:11,560 --> 03:26:13,680 Speaker 21: a spot and be like, who's this open? Or they're dope. 3762 03:26:13,760 --> 03:26:16,520 Speaker 21: The industry did it to itself. You killed your own 3763 03:26:16,680 --> 03:26:20,720 Speaker 21: performance market. And because Live Nation brought up all the 3764 03:26:20,720 --> 03:26:24,080 Speaker 21: small venues where artists really get their chops and really 3765 03:26:24,120 --> 03:26:27,440 Speaker 21: create fan bases and really you get to discover and 3766 03:26:27,480 --> 03:26:29,880 Speaker 21: make connections with it. There's no places for them to play. 3767 03:26:30,520 --> 03:26:35,039 Speaker 21: All that's left are the big industry artists, and why 3768 03:26:35,280 --> 03:26:38,000 Speaker 21: again would they give their ticket sales to a festival. 3769 03:26:39,360 --> 03:26:43,080 Speaker 2: And lastly, climate change. It's hot as hell. 3770 03:26:43,920 --> 03:26:48,800 Speaker 21: The last two burning bands poured rain and flooded. Before that, 3771 03:26:48,920 --> 03:26:52,760 Speaker 21: it was like one hundred and twenty nine million degrees. 3772 03:26:53,600 --> 03:26:58,240 Speaker 2: It's hot. It's too hot to be out there like 3773 03:26:58,320 --> 03:27:01,080 Speaker 2: this climate, y'all. And enough water. 3774 03:27:01,360 --> 03:27:06,359 Speaker 21: It's hot as hell. It's hot as hell, or it's floody. 3775 03:27:06,640 --> 03:27:10,119 Speaker 21: It's hot or its floody. Ain't no more nice days outside? 3776 03:27:11,040 --> 03:27:14,960 Speaker 21: I find the stand outside all day. You crazy? You 3777 03:27:15,080 --> 03:27:18,000 Speaker 21: gonna make me pay extra for shade. It's an extra 3778 03:27:18,040 --> 03:27:20,040 Speaker 21: one hundred dollars so I can have a humbrother. 3779 03:27:20,600 --> 03:27:22,480 Speaker 2: I'm good. Just hold on. 3780 03:27:22,640 --> 03:27:23,680 Speaker 20: We're staying home. 3781 03:27:24,560 --> 03:27:31,360 Speaker 21: Staying home, Okay, now again, let's rebuild the world. 3782 03:27:31,760 --> 03:27:34,520 Speaker 20: What can we do better? That's in our control. 3783 03:27:36,080 --> 03:27:39,360 Speaker 21: So festivals might be done, but it doesn't mean we 3784 03:27:39,440 --> 03:27:42,880 Speaker 21: don't still love music. If you're a music lover, here 3785 03:27:42,920 --> 03:27:46,600 Speaker 21: are some suggestions I can give you that would keep 3786 03:27:46,640 --> 03:27:51,600 Speaker 21: your favorite bands in the game. The first is the 3787 03:27:51,680 --> 03:27:55,160 Speaker 21: easiest one for you, which of course is buying or 3788 03:27:55,160 --> 03:27:58,600 Speaker 21: streaming their music. If you're gonna stream, here's the thing, dude, 3789 03:27:58,720 --> 03:28:01,200 Speaker 21: I'm not an old guy to say that, like your 3790 03:28:01,280 --> 03:28:07,240 Speaker 21: release Radar or your New Music Friday, that algorithmic playlist 3791 03:28:07,320 --> 03:28:10,160 Speaker 21: that's like customized just for you, it's great. 3792 03:28:10,280 --> 03:28:12,840 Speaker 2: My request that I think would help is this. 3793 03:28:13,480 --> 03:28:17,080 Speaker 21: If a song pops on and you dig it, save 3794 03:28:17,160 --> 03:28:19,200 Speaker 21: it number one and then too, go to the album, 3795 03:28:19,520 --> 03:28:22,840 Speaker 21: go to that artist's page and give them a follow, 3796 03:28:23,360 --> 03:28:26,360 Speaker 21: and listen to the album. You heard the song, the 3797 03:28:26,400 --> 03:28:28,280 Speaker 21: song was dope, and if it really resondent, I'm not 3798 03:28:28,320 --> 03:28:30,280 Speaker 21: begging you to do something that you don't like, listen 3799 03:28:30,280 --> 03:28:33,600 Speaker 21: to that album, you know the whole Like artists blowing 3800 03:28:33,680 --> 03:28:36,160 Speaker 21: up on TikTok. That's why Universal was just like man 3801 03:28:36,920 --> 03:28:41,440 Speaker 21: tried to dead all that, you know. So if artist 3802 03:28:41,480 --> 03:28:43,880 Speaker 21: blows up on TikTok, you you really like that sound, 3803 03:28:43,959 --> 03:28:46,160 Speaker 21: like yo, like, go to that artist page, go to 3804 03:28:46,200 --> 03:28:49,240 Speaker 21: their music, like, you know, instead of just like shooting 3805 03:28:49,360 --> 03:28:51,920 Speaker 21: video like that stuff short lived. If you're artists, like obviously, 3806 03:28:52,240 --> 03:28:55,760 Speaker 21: you hope that one day that happens. But that's not sustainable. 3807 03:28:55,800 --> 03:28:57,920 Speaker 21: You can't tour off that. That's what happened to a 3808 03:28:57,959 --> 03:28:59,920 Speaker 21: lot of ours. Why I Spice cancel half her tour 3809 03:29:00,400 --> 03:29:02,400 Speaker 21: is because there's not songs. 3810 03:29:02,640 --> 03:29:05,680 Speaker 20: There's TikTok audios. You feel me. 3811 03:29:06,400 --> 03:29:09,840 Speaker 21: That helps the artists know when they try to go 3812 03:29:09,879 --> 03:29:13,000 Speaker 21: get a show, that they can prove that, like, hey, listen, 3813 03:29:13,520 --> 03:29:16,720 Speaker 21: these are listeners. When you go to my Spotify page, 3814 03:29:16,800 --> 03:29:19,000 Speaker 21: we go to any Spotify page, the first number you 3815 03:29:19,080 --> 03:29:22,520 Speaker 21: see is monthly listeners. But that don't mean followers. I 3816 03:29:22,680 --> 03:29:25,800 Speaker 21: have this weird upside down thing. Most people have more 3817 03:29:25,959 --> 03:29:29,320 Speaker 21: monthly listeners than followers. I'm the opposite. I have three 3818 03:29:29,360 --> 03:29:32,920 Speaker 21: times more followers than monthly listeners, which means these people 3819 03:29:33,200 --> 03:29:37,119 Speaker 21: are going to be alerted when I drop music. Why 3820 03:29:37,240 --> 03:29:41,480 Speaker 21: I have that is because I toured so hard. I 3821 03:29:41,600 --> 03:29:46,560 Speaker 21: played every possible dumb, ugly venue I possibly could, like, 3822 03:29:46,959 --> 03:29:52,640 Speaker 21: gotted out the mud, shook hands, stayed after, stayed at 3823 03:29:52,640 --> 03:29:58,520 Speaker 21: the merch table, took pictures, got email addresses, got phone numbers, 3824 03:29:58,959 --> 03:30:04,000 Speaker 21: came back, you know, signed everything. I would stay after 3825 03:30:04,240 --> 03:30:08,000 Speaker 21: the show for an extra hour until everybody got their 3826 03:30:08,080 --> 03:30:13,320 Speaker 21: picture and everybody got their stuff signed, hard fought, so 3827 03:30:13,520 --> 03:30:17,600 Speaker 21: that way, You're right, I'm not cranking out music that 3828 03:30:17,600 --> 03:30:18,640 Speaker 21: feeds the algorithm. 3829 03:30:18,640 --> 03:30:19,000 Speaker 2: You're right. 3830 03:30:19,400 --> 03:30:20,840 Speaker 20: But when I drop an album, they know. 3831 03:30:21,440 --> 03:30:24,960 Speaker 21: So my request as the consumer is follow that artist, 3832 03:30:25,240 --> 03:30:28,160 Speaker 21: like close to the album. And secondly, the most obvious 3833 03:30:28,160 --> 03:30:31,840 Speaker 21: one is like, dude by merch. Oh my god, y'all. 3834 03:30:32,520 --> 03:30:35,800 Speaker 21: I'm saying like merch has been the difference between car 3835 03:30:35,840 --> 03:30:38,880 Speaker 21: insurance and not. For me, merch has been the difference 3836 03:30:38,920 --> 03:30:44,280 Speaker 21: between can my daughter stay in her you know, dance 3837 03:30:44,320 --> 03:30:49,640 Speaker 21: class her after school, like ballet class. Merch Like merch 3838 03:30:49,720 --> 03:30:52,440 Speaker 21: is how we paid for our daughters. So during the 3839 03:30:52,480 --> 03:30:57,959 Speaker 21: pandemic hell merch it paid our rent Kasai had. Now, 3840 03:30:58,000 --> 03:30:59,960 Speaker 21: as an artist, you need to have dope merch. 3841 03:31:00,520 --> 03:31:01,080 Speaker 20: That's what I mean. 3842 03:31:01,879 --> 03:31:03,600 Speaker 21: If your merch sucks that, I mean, it is what 3843 03:31:03,640 --> 03:31:06,200 Speaker 21: it is. I can't ask you to, you know, purchase 3844 03:31:06,240 --> 03:31:10,600 Speaker 21: something that's trash. Artists make don't merch. You know, I 3845 03:31:11,200 --> 03:31:13,160 Speaker 21: have vinyl. Vinyl costs a lot, but you can go 3846 03:31:13,200 --> 03:31:15,280 Speaker 21: to my website there's vinyl like that stuff. 3847 03:31:15,560 --> 03:31:16,840 Speaker 20: Those make a difference. 3848 03:31:17,560 --> 03:31:20,760 Speaker 21: And then I'd also ask, like, if you really dig 3849 03:31:20,800 --> 03:31:23,120 Speaker 21: an artist, this is on the artist's job to like 3850 03:31:23,400 --> 03:31:27,360 Speaker 21: sign up for their newsletter, find out when they're touring, 3851 03:31:27,560 --> 03:31:30,080 Speaker 21: and just and go to their shows. And when you 3852 03:31:30,120 --> 03:31:32,080 Speaker 21: get there like another game. I think I told this 3853 03:31:32,160 --> 03:31:34,720 Speaker 21: on the Politics podcast too, where it's like most of 3854 03:31:34,760 --> 03:31:37,640 Speaker 21: the time as the artist, I keep the door, like 3855 03:31:37,720 --> 03:31:40,879 Speaker 21: meaning the ticket sales, and then the venue keeps the bar. 3856 03:31:41,320 --> 03:31:43,240 Speaker 21: So their thing is like, well, they're gonna make a 3857 03:31:43,280 --> 03:31:46,200 Speaker 21: ton of money on the bar. But that's how I 3858 03:31:46,240 --> 03:31:49,560 Speaker 21: get to come back is if this venue says, oh, yeah, 3859 03:31:49,640 --> 03:31:52,800 Speaker 21: he brought you know, three hundred people here. They respected 3860 03:31:52,840 --> 03:31:56,879 Speaker 21: my staff, they bought drinks, and me as an artist, 3861 03:31:56,959 --> 03:31:59,760 Speaker 21: my team, i'd be silly on stage, but we're very 3862 03:32:00,200 --> 03:32:00,959 Speaker 21: very professional. 3863 03:32:01,120 --> 03:32:05,119 Speaker 20: Can I take my reputation very serious? We make sure. 3864 03:32:05,000 --> 03:32:08,440 Speaker 21: That like the talent buyer, the venues, everybody taking care of. 3865 03:32:08,640 --> 03:32:10,760 Speaker 21: We're not yelling at the sound man, you know, we 3866 03:32:10,840 --> 03:32:12,640 Speaker 21: keep a clean green room. Like those are things you 3867 03:32:12,680 --> 03:32:15,720 Speaker 21: could do as an artist, but as a consumer, like 3868 03:32:16,240 --> 03:32:19,360 Speaker 21: I know, the algorithm's fighting against you. But like, if 3869 03:32:19,360 --> 03:32:22,120 Speaker 21: you really like a group, go out of your way, 3870 03:32:22,280 --> 03:32:24,640 Speaker 21: even if it's on the Discovery things. Again, the big 3871 03:32:24,680 --> 03:32:27,800 Speaker 21: people is easy. Beyonce's tickets are gonna come find you. 3872 03:32:27,800 --> 03:32:30,680 Speaker 21: You ain't gotta go find him. But Johnny swim but 3873 03:32:31,240 --> 03:32:34,000 Speaker 21: the hot shakes, right, that's what they call go find 3874 03:32:34,080 --> 03:32:36,720 Speaker 21: them because at the end of the day, it's your presence. 3875 03:32:37,040 --> 03:32:39,000 Speaker 21: If you're gonna stay in music, you have to get 3876 03:32:39,040 --> 03:32:42,360 Speaker 21: butts in seats. Is this for us to save music festivals? 3877 03:32:42,360 --> 03:32:44,800 Speaker 21: I don't care they did that to themselves. I'm just 3878 03:32:44,840 --> 03:32:49,879 Speaker 21: trying to save live music because truly, truly, there is 3879 03:32:50,000 --> 03:32:50,840 Speaker 21: nothing like it. 3880 03:32:52,640 --> 03:32:57,599 Speaker 1: Oh oh oh oh oh oh. 3881 03:33:00,680 --> 03:33:00,880 Speaker 2: Hey. 3882 03:33:00,959 --> 03:33:04,080 Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3883 03:33:04,120 --> 03:33:05,800 Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe. 3884 03:33:06,280 --> 03:33:08,800 Speaker 2: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3885 03:33:08,959 --> 03:33:12,039 Speaker 8: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3886 03:33:12,120 --> 03:33:15,680 Speaker 8: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3887 03:33:15,760 --> 03:33:19,320 Speaker 8: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3888 03:33:19,360 --> 03:33:21,720 Speaker 8: now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly 3889 03:33:21,720 --> 03:33:23,000 Speaker 8: in episode descriptions. 3890 03:33:23,200 --> 03:33:24,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.