WEBVTT - PRETTY DETERMINED: Actress Zoe Lister-Jones 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.800 The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi. 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.280 I'm Pia Baron Jeanie, a creative director of Ulpia, an entrepreneur, 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:09.800 a wife, and a dog mom based in Los Angeles. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:12.440 This is my new podcast, Everything is the Best, where 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:14.840 we basically ask interesting people, how did you go from 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:17.319 zero to yach I'm always curious how to help people 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:19.880 became successful, and I figured you would be too. Get 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.240 on the Internet with me. Let's laugh, let's cry, let's overshare, 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:25.960 and let's get inspired to live our best lives. Check 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.880 out new episodes every Wednesday. It's all for you, baby, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:30.920 Thanks for listening. Love you mean it. 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:43.960 Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever, 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.200 pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.479 and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:59.160 This is pretty smart. Zoe Lister Jones is an actress, writer, 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.840 and director. You've seen her in Life in Pieces, Whitney, 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:07.040 and New Girl, most notably in My Eyes. In twenty seventeen, 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.440 she made her directorial debut with her indie film band Aid, 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.279 where she hired an all female crew. It's a first 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:17.760 for a feature film. We talk about that experience, why 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.200 she did it, and what honestly came of it. She 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.800 also indulged me in a deep dive into what it's 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.800 like to audition in Hollywood. She talks about her SNL audition, 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:30.679 and she told a very funny audition horror story. We 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.480 chat about the show that changed her life, her relationship 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.160 with her body, and her hope for the next generation 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:39.319 of girls. You know, I usually write a flowery intro, 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:43.600 but Zoe's interview doesn't really require one. She's not frilly. 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.400 She lives out the quintessential Brooklyn demeanor. What you see is. 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:50.279 What you get, So Zoe. 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.040 I usually start these interviews asking questions about somebody's upbringing 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:56.640 or their life, or something like sensitive and thoughtful, but 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.640 I feel like we need to start with Timothy Shalomey. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.800 Happily Happily So, I worked. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.600 In pop culture and entertainment news for eight years. I 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:11.840 feel like I'm on the pulse. I missed the Timothy 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:13.280 shallow May phenomenon. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:14.600 Can you expl like, what is it? 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.480 Wow? Well, you know, I've sort of become the unofficial 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:23.360 spokesperson for Timothy Shallmay stands everywhere, and I'm happy to 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:28.400 continue holding that mantle. Here, I guess, you know, I'll 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:33.239 say what I'm terrified of is like just like what 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.760 Timothy Shallmay thinks of how much I talk about him 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.240 in interviews, because it terrifies me. I can only imagine 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.400 like what it does to him if I was even 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.680 on the radar. But you know, for me, like I 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:46.760 feel like when Called Me by Your Name came out, 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:48.839 I had a movie, my first movie that I wrote 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:50.960 directors at Sundance the same year that Call Me by 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.440 Your Name premiered there, and I was just like really 0:02:55.520 --> 0:03:02.600 excited by my own reaction to watching a homoerotic love story. 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.000 Like I was so excited that I was so turned 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.520 on by it. And I think it's like such an 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:15.440 important resonant revelation for sis straight women everywhere that actually 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:20.040 it's like that sort of homoroticism can be really sexy, 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.880 and that sexual afflidity and a man can be sexy. 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.680 And I think like Timmy just came to like represent 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.880 that in a way that really excited me because he 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.840 is this sort of like new man, you know, Like 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.680 I think that there is a new generation of men 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.520 who are embodying that in a way that is just 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:41.240 like exciting and I hope will sort of like transform 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:46.960 the conventional notions of masculinity and what it means to 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.720 be desired by a woman, Like what embodying that masculinity 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.240 looks like is so much broader than the limiting context 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.520 that we've been taught. And then he's also like, you know, 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:57.080 just hot. 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.680 That was like really not the answer I was expecting, 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.280 And it was so nuanced and and interesting. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:05.840 Thank you. 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.440 I feel like a lot more makes sense to me 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.240 now because I remember seeing him on a boat with 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.960 like some really hot woman in her like later thirties, 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:16.720 and I was like, he's so young, Like what is 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:18.880 it that, like all these women are so obsessed with him? 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:23.040 So it's kind of just hemire. 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.400 Referencing a photo that I know well, which is him 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.560 and Lily rose up on a boat and can she's certainly. 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.839 Not in No, no, no, it's not her like a 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:31.600 child you No, that was not her. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.080 It wasn't he was with an older woman on a boat. 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.080 He was with a's a Gonzalez. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.480 Oh okay, okay, And she's in her thirties. Yes, yes, 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.960 she's so hot. She defies age so like but yeah, 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.840 when those when those hit the internet in quarantine. It 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.520 was a real tree. Yeah, it was like a real 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.480 gift for all of us. Timmy stands. Yeah, he seems 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:57.760 to just be like sex positive cool in that he 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:02.080 is positive about sex and and I'm excited by that, 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:03.560 by that outlook for him. 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.360 I'll segue into something else because when I found out 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:07.880 that you grew up in New York, I was I 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.680 have such envy of people that grow up in New York. 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.320 Over the last two years, I've kind of explored the 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.320 city more than I ever had before, and I realized 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:21.919 that so many New Yorker's personalities hinge or are informed 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.080 by growing up in New York. And so you grew 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.240 up in Brooklyn. What do you think the most Brooklyn 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:28.200 thing about you is. 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:33.640 The most Brooklyn thing about me? Oh? God, probably is 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:35.640 that it's just like I live in a constant state 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:41.920 of fear, fear of all things, any and all things. 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:46.880 It's an interesting combination the like Brooklyn kid makeup, because 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:51.320 it's like super neurotic, sort of in survival mode, but 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.719 also like street smarts. So I feel like I'm like 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:58.000 a weird combination of constantly terrified and also like having 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.600 to sort of not give a fuck in order to survive. 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.279 I actually hope that that's what anytime I'm on the 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:05.680 red cart. 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.320 But I hope that's what my look conveys. 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:10.800 Yeah, constantly terrified and also don't give a fuck. 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:13.480 Yeah, I think it is. I think that's an important 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:14.880 thing to do it. It would mean like you'd be 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.000 holding a compact just in case to like check on things, 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.960 but also you like throw the compact of the photographers. 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:23.320 That sounds about right. 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:24.440 Yeah. 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.320 When I was researching, I loved this story that you 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.320 told about your mom studying Kabbalah. 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.000 So my mom made me take. 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:34.840 A Kabala class with her because she said I needed 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:36.080 to understand men better. 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:37.440 Oh my god. 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:42.680 It was horrible but also simultaneously sort of interesting. But 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.800 your mom did this like way before Madonna, and she 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:47.920 gave you a name because of this. 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.400 Yes, she named me dirt Pan when I was born 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:56.320 for the first ten days of my life, because I 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.480 guess according to the Kabbala, you're supposed to name your 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.840 kids some thing shitty so that like the angel of 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.640 Death passes over you know them. And she came up 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.080 with like dirt Pan, which isn't even a thing. It's like, 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:13.200 it's not even there's a dust pan, a pan to 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:15.480 collect dirt. She was like, what's worse than a dust pan? 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.040 And I mean, you know, I don't know. It might 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.440 be something that I take on later in life, just 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.600 the sort of rebirth dirt pan, Lister Jones. It's got 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:26.320 a ring to it. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:27.320 Did she tell you? 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:29.280 I mean, because you obviously don't remember that the first 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.640 ten days of your life, like she told you this later. Yeah, yep, 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.840 which is also interesting that she needed you to know 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:37.160 about dirt pan. 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.640 She did need me to know about dirt pan. I 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:42.760 don't remember the first time that she told that story, 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:44.720 but there are so many of those stories that have 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.720 come up in my in my childhood. I think in 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:52.480 a good way, but makes me stronger, builds character. 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:54.960 Well, it was cool to learn that both of your 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.920 parents are artists. In other interviews, you said they were 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.480 never able to make a living with their art. I 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:02.440 was curious if they ever tried to steer you away 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:02.960 from acting. 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.600 Interestingly, they didn't, and I'm so grateful that they didn't. 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.720 They were so supportive really of any creative pursuit, of 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.560 any pursuit in general, creative or not, but definitely of 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.320 creative pursuits, and I studied dance when I was little, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.200 and I was like interested in sort of dipping my 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.400 toe into lots of different mediums, and they were just like, yeah, 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:27.840 go for it. My mom put me in acting classes 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.680 when I was younger because I was so shy, and 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.440 she had taken acting classes because she's a video artist 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:36.960 and she had taken acting classes to learn how to 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.880 direct actors and she had taken them at this place 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.079 called HB Studios in New York, and she found them 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.080 really transformative, just like as a person. So yeah, she 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.240 put me in them, but I was I was always 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:50.000 like one foot out the door in terms of the 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.880 acting thing. Like I was like there was something about 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:54.400 it that I was really drawn to, and then I 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.000 think I was also I couldn't tell if it was lame. 0:08:58.120 --> 0:08:58.920 I still can't. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:00.880 I was gonna say, do you I still feel that way? 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.080 Like when I got a scholarship to go to tish 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.600 at n Yu, just the acting school there, and I 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:09.920 was really torn about going, like I just didn't know 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.720 if I wanted to put all my eggs into that basket. 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.079 I really loved writing, and I think I also felt 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.920 nervous about like how limiting that path was and how 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:22.920 difficult it was. And I think because I had seen 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.400 my parents struggle so much as artists themselves, I didn't 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:32.480 have any like unrealistic fantasies. My image of my future 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:33.760 was bleak as an actor. 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.240 You know, it's like you saw the Ramen noodles, But. 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:38.760 My mom was really the one to be like, no, 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.760 go take that scholarship and go pursue it. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.760 When you think about now, after you've had so much success, 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:47.720 like what does it mean to you to be able 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.040 to live out their dreams? Because I feel like there's 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:51.560 so much sacrifice. 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:56.040 Involved totally, it's so meaningful to me that I'm able 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.200 to in some ways like that they have some sort 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.320 of vicarious thrill, and I think they both do, and 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.280 their support has only like grown, you know, as I've 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.320 grown in my life and career. And it's super cool 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.080 to be able to make a living from art, Like 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.960 that's just a crazy thing that I never take for granted. 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.080 And I think, yeah, it's nice for them to see 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:18.880 me do that. 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.439 When I read one of Gloria Steinem's books a few 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.440 years ago, she talks about how her mom never got 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:26.520 to be a writer, and she really wanted to be, 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.000 and there was kind of some guilt there that she 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:29.800 got to do it. 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:31.199 Do you feel any of that. 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.840 Well, yes, I mean that's another characteristic I forgot to 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.760 mention about the most Brooklyn thing about me. It's also guilt. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.640 That's like Jews and Catholics share that, but the Jewish 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.160 Brooklyn night in me is just consistently guilty about everything. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.760 So I do feel guilt about that. I would love 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.760 for both of my parents to be able to make 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.240 their work in a way that you know, it's like 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.000 it's not in a vacuum. Like both my parents have 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.400 had careers where like my mom is in the permanent 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:03.800 collection of MoMA and the Pompadou Center in Paris, and 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.319 so it's not like they've been making their work in 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.440 a vacuum. My dad, you know, had a really amazing 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:13.400 career as well. But I think when you aren't able 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.720 to make a living from your art, you then have 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.600 to take other jobs, and those jobs take away from 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.480 so much of your creative energy that I think that's 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.200 what I think is the most sort of tragic part 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.600 of that narrative. And also, you know, if you're rejected enough, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:33.240 it's really difficult to maintain a sense of self worth 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.840 as an artist, and I struggle without myself because like, 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:37.880 even though I am able to make a living, I'm 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.920 still constantly facing rejection. So I would love I was 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:43.480 just talking to my friend. I would love to like 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.319 get a gallery to do a retrospective of both of 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.160 my parents' work, because both of them were so ahead 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.320 of their time, and I would love to like have 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.840 a hand in like getting their work out into the 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.280 public in a new way at this moment in both 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:00.000 of their lives. 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:01.120 Be really cool. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:07.480 Yeah, maybe an NFT version exactly. I'm glad you brought 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:12.680 up auditioning because I'm fascinated by it, Like, I hope 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:13.400 you can get into the. 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:14.480 Weeds with me a little bit. 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.920 No one's ever been, like I've never talked to any 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.679 truly successful actor about. 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.240 What it was like auditioning. It seems horrendous to me. 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.160 I can't even imagine you walk into a room with 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.440 fifty people, fifty women who look like you, which is 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.120 weird in itself, right, You're like, they all have my 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.360 same color hair, and my same eyes and sort of 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.400 the same nose. Yeah, do you become friends with them? 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.360 Like you guys see each other one after another. 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.680 You know, like back in the day when I started 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.960 in my like twenties in New York, it was such 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:51.720 a crew. Many of my dearest friends girlfriends are girls 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.319 that we were just like stuck in waiting rooms forever 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.680 for so many years together. And yeah, it's like a 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:03.600 real I guess in not taking things personally because it's like, well, 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:07.280 like every every person has has something different to offer, 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.200 even if you know she's a brunette with blue eyes 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.680 or whatever, and that when a friend would get something, 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.760 it was really that that moment of being like I 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.559 could feel upset or I could celebrate that person's success 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:18.959 and he kind of had to just get to the 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.080 place of celebrating, you know, other people's successes because it 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:26.000 isn't about about you, you know, which is really still 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:31.640 a difficult thing to really take in. But like testing 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.320 what you do when you when you're auditioning for a 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.360 TV show, once you get down, you know, way down 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.480 the line in that casting process, there was something that 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.440 people still do test. But back in the day, you 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.280 would test by like I lived in New York, they 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.160 would fly me out to LA I'd be in this 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:52.120 room and the stakes are really high because you've already 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.280 signed your contract, so you know how much money is 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.200 on the line. You know how many seasons are on 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.000 the line. Like it feels so you're so close, you know, 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:00.880 you can like smell all the success. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.600 Yeah, and you get to that point you're seeing you're 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.000 seeing some yesses. 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.000 Right, so you've made it so far that you're seeing that. 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.480 You're like, I'm so close. There's like it's just like 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.720 me and three other girls now, you know, as opposed 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:14.880 to out however many, you know, hundreds of girls that 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.760 they've seen for this part, and that I remember just 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.480 being brutal because what you used to do. There's a 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:24.080 studio and a network that own a television show, and 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.520 so you'd go in front of the studio and used 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:28.920 to do this live. You'd basically walk into a room 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:33.040 with like twenty five suits and have to do you know, 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.880 your audition in front of them. And after studio you'd 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:38.640 have to go to network if you made it past studio. 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:40.800 But you and all the other girls, some of you 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.040 get cut after studio, so you'd have to sit with 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.480 them as they got cut and then be like bye 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.120 as they like cried, and you stayed. It was a 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:54.560 fucking nightmare. Oh god. There was one one girl who's 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.240 a friend of mine who then turned out to be 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.400 so successful and like it's like nominated for Emmys all 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.280 the time. But we were both flown out from New 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.160 York for a role we both went in because I 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.800 had the rental car. I was driving us both back 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.160 to our hotel, and she got the call that she 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.800 didn't get it in the car and I hadn't gotten it. 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:17.160 So then the car ride was just like brutal awkward, 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.480 brutally awkward. She's fine. Now she's more successful than me, 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:21.400 So there you go. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.320 But that whole experience, because here's the thing. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:26.960 I mean, I respect actors for a lot of reasons, 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.280 but one of the reasons is that you are so 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.680 vulnerable and so yourself. Even though you're playing another person, 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.720 you have to like draw up all these very human feelings. 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:40.400 And so it's very difficult to not take that personally. 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.760 So difficult. It's so difficult, you know, I would say, well, 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.080 all of it is difficult. It's like as a writer too, 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.640 like you're like pouring, you know, I like pour my heart, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:51.800 Like every script is like a baby, like one of 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.720 my babies and then I you know, if it gets rejected, 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:56.200 someone's like, well I just don't want to make it, 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.440 like a producer or a studio or whoever, it's like 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.960 it's even more gutting. I think across across the industry, 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.520 no matter what what part it's, it's gutting at every turn. 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.640 But it is. Yeah, I think, like, I think that 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.600 level of rejection and having not take it personally is 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.640 is what sort of I think led me to making 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.440 my own work pretty early on in my career because 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.440 it allowed for me to, I guess, bypass the gatekeepers 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:24.200 in that way. 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:25.720 Yeah. 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.400 I interviewed Taren Manning years ago and she said she 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.280 felt like she made it when she's like a script 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:35.720 came through for an audition and on the top of 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:40.520 it it said Taryn Manning type and it like it's amazing, amazing, 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:41.680 and she like she auditioned. 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.000 Also, why didn't they just offer it to her right now? 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.120 Do you think there's a Zoe Lister Jones type. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:50.480 A friend of mine told me that he puts a 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.320 Zoe Lister Jones type into his pilot, which was which 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:55.680 was the first time I had heard of it. That's cool. 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.600 Is there a Zoelser Jones type. I suppose. I mean, 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:00.600 I think in the world of television and there is 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.880 which is just like, uh, you know, dry witted bitch. 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:06.959 I don't think bitch. I'll be honest. 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.840 I bitch is a term of endearment. Yeah, you know, would. 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:13.440 You say those are the parts you were getting called 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:13.840 in for? 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:18.639 Early on, when I first started acting professionally, I called 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.320 what I did crying for cash because I was crying 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:27.240 so much. I was playing so many different victims because 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.560 I have such like too much access to tears as 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.479 a person, So I was like anytime it was like 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.840 you gotta you know, your brother's dead or whatever, I 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.320 would just be like, I'm there, let's go, and I 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.720 just fucking water works it up and get the part. 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.720 And also at that time, like, you know, it's such 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:47.720 a rite of passage as a New York actor to 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.320 do the law and order, And I was on so 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:52.320 many Law and Orders which required a lot of crying 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.639 because I was generally I was once I was a 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.560 murderer's wife in one episode, and then I was a 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.280 victim's sister in another. There I'm trying to think what 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.960 my fourth was I good for Anyway, there's a lot 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:04.399 of prime. 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.239 Do you have an audition in your mind that like 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:08.960 it was really memorable that went wrong. 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.600 That's a good question. Oh well, yeah, there was one. 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:19.040 It didn't go wrong, but the lead up was my 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:24.760 true healthscape. Like I was testing for a sitcom, and 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.800 you know, in a test, it's like always, but in 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.919 a test, especially because you're sort of presenting yourself in 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.159 this really high stake situation to like the brass at 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.639 the network and shit, you know, you really have to 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.040 like do it up, not just in terms of performance, 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:42.400 but like what you're wearing. You know. I would always 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.760 get my fucking hair done. Like I was like, you know, 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:50.120 want to look camera ready, as we say. And I 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.280 got in my car, I was like, I had to 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:55.359 drive across town. I was in LA I was had 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.160 to drive to the west side, so it's about forty 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.280 five minute drive, and like like thirty five minutes, I 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.280 realized that I had forgotten my high heels and I 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.160 was wearing like my like driving shoes which were like 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:10.960 really bunk loafers, like they were not they were not 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:15.040 camera ready, and I freaked out. I called everyone I 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:17.439 knew it. I like tried to stop at Zara. I 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:19.399 was like, but nothing was open yet. Because it was 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.159 so early and I was too far, I would have 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:24.280 missed the you know, the test if I would have 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.560 gone home. And I called my agent and I was like, 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.200 you got to get me heels, Like I can't show 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:32.960 up like this. This sounds so superficial. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.120 No, it matters when you're doing this stuff. And also 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:37.720 you don't feel good going in if you have. 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.359 Yeah, there's something about like me wearing heels that also 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:42.919 was like going to give me that sort of like 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.159 powerful stance that I felt that I needed too. I 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.280 think now I would have handled this very differently and 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.159 been like, yeah, I forgot my fucking heels, so you know, 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:53.959 we can all just like deal with that. But at 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.159 the time I was just so nervous and and so 0:19:57.200 --> 0:19:59.080 I went I got to the audition, I like went 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:00.879 in and I was just like, there's nothing I can do. 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.760 And I was in the middle of the test. This 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:07.720 was on camera. This is like they've switched since the 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.120