WEBVTT - Trump's Tariff Changes + Predicting Future of Fox News & The Murdoch Empire 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.440 I have a little bit of a theme with a 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.640 couple of my interviews this week. Happy Monday, Welcome to 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.840 another episode of the Chuck Podcast. So today I'm interviewing 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:17.000 McKay Coppins. It's a fascinating interview. He's a writer and 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:20.319 reporter for The Atlantic, and he did the deepest of 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:25.600 deep dives with incredible access on the fight for control 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:31.920 of the Murdoch Empire James Murdoch in particular, the second son, 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:36.440 eldest son of Rupert Murdoch, and who's the Murdoch children 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.960 are in this big fight over whether to split up 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:44.199 the empire equally or to in Rupert's case, he's afraid 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.280 of his more liberal children taking a piece of the 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.800 Murdoch Empire. So there's an ideological aspect to all of 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:55.000 these things. Yes, if you're wondering this is the story 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:58.400 of succession in real life, well certainly we'll feel familiar 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.800 to you. But it's an incredible piece that McKay did, 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.320 and we spend a good chunk of time not just 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.560 talking about his piece, but sort of understanding sort of 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:13.720 the ecosystem that Rupert Murdoch created and what it is 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:19.479 done in at least the three places he's had the 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:24.120 most success in acquiring media organizations Australia, the UK, and 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.319 of course here in the United States. But let's be honest, 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.040 one of the reasons why there's so much distrust of 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:35.480 media in general is arguably due to the tactics that 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.480 Rupert Murdoch has employed for some thirty years, the weaponizing 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:44.200 of journalism for partisans. While he's not the first person 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.480 to try and do it, I mean, I've told you this. 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:50.080 The nineteenth century was filled with this type of mindset 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.800 when it comes to journalism and media, but this modern 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.240 era version of it, and this attempt to sort of 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:02.200 essentially weaponize the information ecosystem that we're all living in today. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.000 Arguably the modern version of this began with the decision 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.240 of what's happened with Fox News? But you'll hear an 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:12.840 interesting conversation about how And I'm going to leave you 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.959 with this question before I go into the weekend politics 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.400 and what to expect this week, And that's simply this, 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:21.639 would we be better off if Roger Ayles We're still 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.160 running Fox News? So I'm gonna let you steal on 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.280 that a minute before we get to my interview with 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:28.720 McKay coppins. And by the way, later this week we 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.480 talk about trust and media. Well, you want to know 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.160 why there's such little trust in government, I'd argue it 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.880 has to do with a certain cover up or supposed 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:42.000 cover up of probably the most famous assassination of the 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.640 twentieth century. So with that, I want to put a 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.160 pin in that and instead talk about what we learned 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:49.560 this weekend and what to expect in the topsy turvy 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:53.160 world that is politics these days, and frankly, the tariff 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.240 trade wars that Donald Trump has started around the world. 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:58.880 The big news over the weekend, of course, is his 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:03.280 decision to exempt, essentially exempt Silicon Valley as best he 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.960 can from the tariffs. The question is is this a 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.920 permanent exemption or a temporary one. Like with everything in 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.400 how Donald Trump has handled the tariff situation, in the 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:18.920 trade situation, his administration is giving mixed signals. On one hand, 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.520 this looks like, hey, we can't step in front of 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.959 something that has been that has allowed America to take 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:29.280 the lead, whether it's on the development of smartphones or 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.480 artificial intelligence, and the big chips and all these companies 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:37.760 that desperately need this tech imported without big tariffs. They 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:42.119 got their exemptions on that front, but the Commerce Secretary 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:43.920 went out there on the Sunday shows and said, hey, 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.320 these are only going to be temporary. So is this 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.640 a permanent exemption? Is this a temporary exemption? And what 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.240 does it mean to start handing out exemptions. If you recall, 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.360 in the previous iteration of the Chuck podcast, I had 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.160 a couple of experts on trade and tariffs and we 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.240 were talking about what could be And this was back 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.720 before the November election, but sort of like, what is 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:09.000 it about tariffs that Donald Trump just loves so much? 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.120 And what tariffs do when you start to implement him 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.080 the way he implemented him very scattershot, is that it 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:20.720 puts him at the center of every single negotiation. If 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.960 you're a country with tariff slapped on you, you've got 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:25.880 to go to Donald Trump. You're not going to some 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:31.279 other entity, some other multinational trade agreement that you try 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.600 to renegotiate. You have to go to Donald Trump. And 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.279 if you're an industry impacted by tariffs and you're looking 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.000 for an exemption so that you continue to do business 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.599 in a reasonable way, you got to go to Donald Trump. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.400 And it really, this is why he loves it. He 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:48.160 loves to be able to be in the middle of 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.960 a one on one deal. And if you're wondering if 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.560 the goal of the tariff policy is to achieve what 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:55.840 he wants to achieve, which is to bring manufacturing back 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.840 to America, then he's undermining his own policy with all 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.960 of these exemptions. If you continue to give the tech 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.680 industry all of these exemptions, they have no incentive to 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.599 break ground in the United States of America. But you 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:10.880 got to ask yourself, what's the motivation of Donald Trump 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.560 to do this. Well, he's just trying to deal with 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:17.040 short term political pain. Because you will see the markets 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.440 briefly go up early in the week, perhaps early on Monday. 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.039 Maybe it's a great day all day Monday with the 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.760 tech Scott stocks, your apples, your Palenteers, your Navidia's. The 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:32.000 people that have right now have the president's ear. And 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.440 of course it's not lost on some people that hear 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.240 apples getting a big benefit here. And we all know 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.159 all of the amount of money that has been given 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.520 to the Inaugural Committee by many of these tech companies 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.719 or the library that may or may not ever exist 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:52.120 in a future world of Donald Trump. But there is 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.000 this essentially piggy bank of money and chits that he's 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.200 been acquiring from these tech companies, and perhaps this is 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.839 one way they've just cashed him to make sure they 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.719 get these exemptions. But again, it undermines the stated goal 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.080 of what they're trying to do. And if you're opening 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.040 the door on this front with tech tariffs, you're going 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.400 to start opening the door to other industries. And the 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:15.120 next big industry that's going to be looking for an 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:17.200 exemption there's going to be a politically powerful one, and 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.800 that is folks that are involved with anything having to 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.080 do with babies, whether it's taking care of if it's 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.120 bringing in the right equipment that you want to import 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.279 to take care of your kid, car seats, things like that. 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.520 We already know if you recall remember the baby formula 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.920 crisis and they had to temporarily wave tariffs in order 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.080 to try to save money. There. When people start complaining 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:41.360 about the cost of their coffee, are the coffee importers 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.599 going to get an exemption? And is Donald Trump going 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.200 to sit here and essentially play whack a mole with 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.239 ways to try to soften the economic blow to the public. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:52.920 That's what this looks like so far. And if you 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.080 do that, this is no way to run an economy. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.719 It is going to end up blowing up up both 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.680 goals that he might have if he's trying to stabilize 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.320 the economy by trying to do some of these exemptions. Okay, 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:11.040 there's some sort of uneasy stabilization here right in the 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.800 tech stocks. Maybe you'll have unevil even stabilization. They'll be 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.720 relief that the cost of an iPhone isn't going to 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.160 be so much that it impacts the earnings of Apple. 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.960 And then maybe you know those that lobby the administration 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.720 when it comes to the various things that impact having 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:29.920 a baby and taking care of kids in this country, 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.560 and you get rid of the tariffs on anything having 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:35.840 to do with baby formula or car seats or strollers 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.160 or things like that. Okay, so then there's that, and 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.120 then every industry starts coming to the White House for something, 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.160 and it means everything is a transaction. Now, look, the 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.520 darker part of my brain is going to the world 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.200 of a kleptocracy. This is how a kleptocracy is. Okay, 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.520 before you go to a full fledge authoritarian regime, you 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:03.000 go through this sort of midpoint between democracy and authoritarianism, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:07.080 which is kleptocracy. Arguably that's what Turkey is right now. 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:11.000 That is what Venezuela is times one hundred, where there's 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:16.040 still some remnants of a democracy. Maybe in Turkey, for instance, 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:19.280 the actual vote itself isn't rigged, but all of the 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.480 industries are. Essentially you got to pay some sort of 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.760 fee or honorarium or whatever you want to call it 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.800 to the government in order to be able to do 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:35.280 business in certain ways. And suddenly, when you're at the 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.800 center of a terriff regime that Donald Trump is put on, 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.600 every industry is coming, and they're going to be coming 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:43.920 a little bit with hat in hand and perhaps an 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.920 offering or two. And what is that offering? Sometimes we 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.800 may know sometimes it's a quid pro quo that he 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:51.920 may claim will help the country, and sometimes it may 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.240 be a quid pro quo that helps one of his 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.240 friends or himself. Some of this stuff will be transparent 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.760 and some of this stuff will be opaque. But even 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.640 the very idea that this econ, we no longer under 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:05.439 a system like this can say we have a free 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:10.880 market economy. Our economy is being dictated by government intervention. 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:13.640 And there's some irony to this because right now it 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.360 is the folks on the right that like to talk 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:20.480 about folks on the left wanting a socialized government, wanting 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:25.280 socialism in this country. Well, when you're attempting to control 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:30.839 and manipulate business, that is the very definition of getting 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:34.440 into the world of nationalism and socialism. And there really 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.840 isn't a lot of difference. Right he may proclaim himself 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.960 a nationalist, but the ability to manipulate an economy is 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.440 something that socialist governments want to do as well. So 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:49.240 in many ways, he is now practicing his own form 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.400 call it national socialism. I'll let you go down that 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.280 rabbit hole when you make that phrase, and have some 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.240 fun with that phrase. But this is where we're headed. 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:00.439 And now that he's been willing to cut a deal 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:05.080 with Tech, others are coming. What does this do to 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.760 the overall terrorf regime. I think it only is going 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.360 to create continue to create long term concern about the 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:15.000 stability of the economy and everything that his stated goal is, 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:20.040 which is to essentially redo the manufacturing sector in this 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.720 American economy, doing all of these sort of half in, 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.760 half out all of this, it is not incentivizing business 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:31.080 to break ground in this country. It is incentivizing business 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.920 to wait him out or buy him out. Right. They 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.679 might buy him out by getting an exemption. Hope they 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.480 can survive maybe two years till the midterms, four years 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.320 until the next presidential and then we go back to 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:48.320 the global economy that frankly is already there and probably 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.880 impossible to end. You might be able to slow it, 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.280 slow it down. You might be able to take an 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.360 industry here and industry there and try to manipulate it 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.600 for a couple of years, but ultimately it is going 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:05.720 to be really hard to stop the movement of progress. 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:09.840 You can slow it down, you could possibly cause equity 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:14.720 markets uh to freeze, you can, you can certainly disrupt things, 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.600 but the long term it's going to be impossible to stop. 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.360 And the short term at this point, you know, again, 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.720 I think he's hoping that by doing these whack a moles, 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:31.240 he can minimize the inflationary impact on people's pocketbooks. The 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.160 next month or two, probably folks aren't going to see 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.959 too much inflation. But starting around June first, when all 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.840 of the inventories that people have already accumulated in this 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:46.200 country without the big tariffs are completely sold down and 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.880 sold down, and you know, sold sold out and and 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.880 and are sort of brought back down. That's when you're 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.839 going to start to see the increases. And then the 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:59.480 question is is he going to continue to do these 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.480 whack a moles when the ninety day pause expires, does 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.719 he extend it another ninety days? Do we have extensions 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:07.840 of thirty days at a time. A lot of it's 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.080 going to depend on the perception of the economy. A 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:14.560 lot of it's going to be about of the actual 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.480 bond market itself. Is it collapsing still? Is the price 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:22.640 of the dollar continuing to go down threatening our status 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.600 as the reserve currency? So look, this has been a 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.319 can of worms that he's opened up. He is trying 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.360 to play whack a mole here. I don't think this 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:35.199 is going to go well, but we're going to see. 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.960 My guess is the markets react okay on the early 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.160 part of the week, and then reality is going to 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:44.120 set and you realize this instability. Who speaks for the administration? 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.520 Is it the Commerce Secretary? Is it Peter Navarro, is 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.840 it Scott Bessen? Is it Donald Trump? Right? We know 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.200 it's Donald Trump ultimately, but who's got his ear at 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:58.520 any given moment, That to me seems to be an 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:03.360 open question. So prepare for another tumultuous week. As you 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.040 see by the way his poll numbers continue to erode, 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.640 they're going to continue to go down. This is this 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:12.280 is not you know, there has been no positive coverage. 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.360 He has no ribbon cuttings of new factories. He is 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.480 you know, I've gone through this before. But he couldn't 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:23.400 have politically mishandled the rollout of this tariff regime any worse. 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.560 There are better ways this could have been done. I 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.720 told you about how Owen Cass, who's somebody who's ideologically 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.880 essentially tried to defend what Trump is doing. But he 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.240 actually had a better, more coherent, methodical plan to do 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.640 this than what this administration has done. And they've likely 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.280 set themselves up for just what's going to continue to 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:50.200 be political pain in the polls, financial instability in the markets, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:57.520 and a lot of uncertainty with our international relationships. Let 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.240 me sneak in a break here and when we come back. 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.320 My conversation with McKay coppins on the future of Rupert 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:11.559 Murdock's Empire and joining me now is the author of this. Frankly, 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.120 it feels like a mini book, a novella, if you will, 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.920 except it's real life. It is not. It is nonfiction, 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.160 even if it reads like incredible fiction. Is Mickay Coppins 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.360 of The Atlantic McKay, it's good to talk with you. 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:26.440 Yeah, thanks for having me on seck. 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.400 So first I want to get more of your sort 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.600 of credentials and accolades out of the way. You are 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.840 the author of a book that I've been using as 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:40.160 a teaching tool for students in my I teach a 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.920 class of USC students that are interning in DC, and 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.440 in the class is called How Washington Works. And I 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.000 give them sort of four or five books to choose 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.280 from as a midterm assignment, and one of them is 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:56.120 the Romney book. Wow, that's you, Because I think I 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:57.880 look at it this way, there's sort of a few 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.600 books right now that I feel like are perfect almost 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.160 textbooks for understanding politics these days, which is, you know, 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:09.080 how did the Republican Party move from the Eisenhower Romney 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:13.880 era to this Trump era? And Mitt Romney your Romney Book, 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.880 where Mitt Romney essentially give you incredible access to his 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:22.360 innermost thoughts. I think does better job of any book 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.600 out there of showing that evolution. You know, there's and 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.560 when you're trying to put together you know you want 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.480 to understand Washington these days, you've got to understand the 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.920 evolution of the Republican Party. Your book does that. There's 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:35.720 a great book by Roy ta Chera about Where Have 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.040 All the Democrats Gone? That explains the Democrat It's so 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.000 I use this piece Bill There's Brody. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:41.720 That's awesome. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.960 The Mullins brothers did that great book about the lobbying community. 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.240 That's my textbook for lobbying. So it's been It is 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.880 a reminder that I think the best journalism these days 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.880 is in this long form element that we're in. But look, 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.880 I booked you because of this incredible access you got 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:03.160 with the Murdoch family, where whether the succession was real 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:08.480 life Murdocks or not the great HBO show. It is 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.880 a reminder no matter how you fictionalize something, the reality 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.840 is so much weirder, so much more important. Let me 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:18.800 just start with before we get it. By the way, 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.640 I love that the Atlantic magazine tells you how many 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.000 minutes it will take to read said article. We are 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:26.880 going to be talking for less time than it will 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.720 take to through the whole thing. 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.240 Hopefully it doesn't. It doesn't feel like too much of 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:37.600 a slog. It is long, but it's but I know 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.640 when you when you write something that long, the thought 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:42.360 is like when you have to take extra care to 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.040 make sure it's not boring because you'll lose perilla, you know, I. 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.360 Mean, you know, other than the time element here, how 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.600 tempting is it to do a full book? Or in 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.560 some ways would James not have cooperated James Murdoch, who 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.880 clearly is the most important narrator here. 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.520 For you, You know. 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:02.600 It was that part of the bargain that it wasn't 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:03.320 going to be a book. 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:05.600 We didn't even talk about it being a book. And 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.639 I have to say, like about a few months into 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.359 the process, it kind of occurred to me that this 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.160 maybe should have been a book, or at least first 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:17.480 of all, might have been more lucrative. Although the Atlantic 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.920 pays me very well, etcetera. But you know, I think 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.640 that there's an urgency element to it, you know, as 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.840 much as this is kind of a timeless story and 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.920 we talk about how the Murdochs kind of resemble these 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:35.280 dynastic families throughout history. It also the murder. I was 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.760 catching the Murdocks at this moment where the family was 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:43.480 melting down over the control of the empire. And the 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.160 problem with a book is that, like that's a multi 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.480 year process to get it out, and who knows how 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.200 things would have changed by then. So I really appreciated 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.280 that the Atlanta could get it into the bloodstream at 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:55.240 this kind of moment. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.920 I actually as if I were playing book editor or 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:02.080 book publisher, I probably would have said, you know what 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:03.639 we got, you got to get it out, now do 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.720 it as and you know, who knows, maybe you go 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.800 back to the old days. It turns in you write serials. Yeah, yeah, 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:11.720 a sudden somebody goes ahead and turns it into a 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:15.879 book totally a few years from now. But look the urgency, 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.600 and I agree that there's urgency here. What happens to 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:23.680 the Murdoch Empire will have a profound impact on how 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.360 the Trump right wing, and I do think it's sort 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.800 of that version of the right wing, the populace right wing, 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.360 and around the western world, not just in America, how 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.640 they communicate with voters. Right how they communicate their message. 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.400 Who controls the Murdoch Empire. You know there are there's 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.200 others nipping at their heels. Right in America it's news Max, 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.600 there's ones in the UK, and there's ones in Australia. 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:49.480 So this will have a profound impact on our politics, right. 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:53.280 Yeah, exactly. That That's what made the story, what gave 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.080 it stakes, right because on one level, this is like 0:18:56.119 --> 0:19:00.440 a human drama about this traveling and if you watch 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.919 Succession it will feel very familiar. Or if frankly you 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:08.320 read Greek tragedies, it might feel familiar as well, King 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.119 Lear or Shakespeare or whatever. But the stakes are that 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:19.159 this is I think arguably the most powerful, certainly conservative 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.320 media empire in the Western world, one of the most 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.440 powerful media empires in the world. And they have become 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:32.280 very deliberately the organ of this right wing populism that 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.480 you're talking about. And it's we see it in Fox 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.720 News here in the US. But this, this empire, these 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.520 media outlets have played a key role in Brexit, They 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.639 played a key role in in toppling governments around Europe. 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.880 I mean, they know if they if this, if these 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.920 outlets change hands and the direction changes it dramatically changes 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:00.600 how politicians throughout the English speaking world U on the 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:02.919 right connect with their their audiences. 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.360 I mean, let's let's narrow it down here. We're talking Australia, 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.400 the UK, and the United States. Yeah, that's the most 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:13.520 that's most where truly his media empire has either served 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:16.960 as an organ of political power or as a sorter 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:18.600 of political power, right. 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.560 Yeah, yeah, and there's and the thing that connects all 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.879 of them is that there's always been and this of 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.680 course back to the very beginning in Australia, this kind 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:32.320 of like puckish anti establishment streak, right that defines all 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:36.520 the from the first Australian newspapers that Rupert bought, to 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:43.080 the tabloids on Fleet Street to certainly Fox News. The 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:47.240 Murdoch Press is really good at identifying kind of the 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.440 sacred cows of of you know, the liberal or centrist 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:56.600 and liberal establishment and like slaying them right needly. Yeah, 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.720 but what but that has I think that and you 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.280 can we'll see some of that. But in the last 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.359 twenty years, and certainly in the last decade, you've seen 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.480 that kind of kurdle into this full throated support for 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:13.000 something that you could critics would argue is more illiberal 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:17.719 and more toxic than just kind of like mischief making. 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:19.639 I was just going to say, you know, look, the 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:23.480 New York Post of my of the nineties was fun, right, 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.760 the New York Post of the New York Post of 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:31.840 today is is predictable and brutish. I guess, yeah, I 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.560 would describe it as you know, yeah, and and and 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:36.680 Fox feels that way. There was a time. I mean 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:38.960 there's actually an individual I think about a guy like 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.080 Great Guttfeld, who I knew when he was the editor 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:45.800 at maxim UK. And he was he was just a 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:51.840 you know, a provocateur, but intellectually honest about it, right, 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.080 and and and and even as a commute you know. 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:59.720 But in Dennis Miller on Fox right, similar. 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.280 Right, and now it's almost like, nope, they have to 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.159 be on a message. Right, He's lost, They've lost what 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.400 there was a rebelliousness to them that made it interesting. 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:14.360 And now instead of being a rebel still, right, it's 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.400 stead they're weirdly their own establishment. 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:20.200 Yeah, it's like it's a it's an organ of the 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.640 kind of populist right establishment makes makes them less interesting, 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:25.440 for sure, I. 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:29.240 Think it does. Right, It made it less uh, less sticky. 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.040 It also makes the Murdoch family and Rupert in particular, 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.199 I think, less powerful in a way because for so 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.560 long he was the one kind of making the weather 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:43.680 on the right, you know, and now it really does 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.920 feel like ever since Donald Trump arrived on the scene, 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.160 at least in America, he is the one making the weather, 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:52.679 and Rupert had to kind of make a decision about like, 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:54.879 are we getting on board with this or not, and 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:56.240