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Speaker 1: Pushkin after the highest profile of careers shaping contemporary culture

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Speaker 1: around her, Deborah Needleman is now part of a tradition

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Speaker 1: as old as time itself. As one of her generations

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Speaker 1: most influential and often intimidating editors, founding Domino, editing WSJ

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Speaker 1: magazine and then t the New York Times Style magazine.

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Speaker 1: Deborah's impeccable instincts and strong convictions influenced how we define excellence,

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Speaker 1: see beauty, and perceived taste. But at the height of

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Speaker 1: her power, she left starting again as a student of weaving,

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Speaker 1: making baskets up state, not glossy magazines in Manhattan. It's

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Speaker 1: an improbable story, but one that is less surprising when

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Speaker 1: you understand that she's always been more inspired by the

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Speaker 1: beauty and dignity of the daily practices of people and

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Speaker 1: places around the world, whether it's semit gardeners in England,

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Speaker 1: weavers of textiles in India, makers in Japan. Debora now

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Speaker 1: travels using a project or the making of an object

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Speaker 1: as a way to comprehend cultures more deeply. She now

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Speaker 1: approaches the world as an enthusiastic, curious apprentice, but she

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Speaker 1: cannot help becoming a master at whatever she puts her

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Speaker 1: mind in hand to. Here's my conversation with my mentor

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Speaker 1: and friend, Debra Needleman. Welcome Deborah to Traveling Through. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking before you came on here that you know,

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Speaker 1: we're friends obviously, and we have a lot in common.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things that we don't have in

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Speaker 1: common is that I was not the editor in chief

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Speaker 1: of Tea, the New York Times style magazine. You wrote

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Speaker 1: for it, Yeah, I did, but like write at number

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty seven of importance. But I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you, because you've had dramatic life pivots in

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Speaker 1: terms of your work and interests, and it's always evolved,

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Speaker 1: what was the last trip that you did or took

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Speaker 1: as editor in chief?

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Speaker 2: Probably it was going to the fashion shows. So that's

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Speaker 2: sort of a month of travel New York, London, Lawn, Paris.

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Speaker 2: So being away from home and being in that little

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Speaker 2: fashion bubble for a month very sort of luxurious what

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Speaker 2: would be considered luxurious travel?

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Speaker 1: And did you get tired of doing that? After what

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Speaker 1: five years of being away for like what it's almost

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Speaker 1: two months a year basically at least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, to say I was tired of it is

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Speaker 2: euphemistic for how I felt about it. I hated it.

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Speaker 1: Really, What was it? Kind of what was the whole situation?

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Speaker 1: I kind of a little bit picture, you know.

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Speaker 2: I think for many people, going to fashion shows sounds

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Speaker 2: like a really sort of glamorous thing. But I think,

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Speaker 2: like a lot of so called glamorous things, when you

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Speaker 2: are really involved in them, they're not that glamorous.

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Speaker 1: But it was.

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Speaker 2: Incredibly luxurious travel. We stayed in really fancy hotels, but

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Speaker 2: you're in a little bubble being driven around, and you know,

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Speaker 2: full day of fashion shows is about getting in and

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Speaker 2: out of a car, being in terrible traffic, sitting on

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Speaker 2: a hard bench waiting for a show to start for

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Speaker 2: half an hour, and then the show's about seven minutes,

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Speaker 2: and then five thousand people trying to get out one

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Speaker 2: door and doing it again and again, and then going

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Speaker 2: out at night.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know.

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Speaker 2: For me, it just I really didn't like the idea

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Speaker 2: of being told where to go and when to be somewhere.

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Speaker 1: I know you well, and I know that you're actually

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Speaker 1: kind of a homebody in a way, and you're likely

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Speaker 1: very independent and like to work with your hands and

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Speaker 1: like to kind of have a solitary life. So I

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Speaker 1: imagine that, you know, you left that job pretty like

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Speaker 1: immediately and then went to explore another interest, which was broommaking.

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Speaker 2: It weirdly, yes, I mean I had never really worked

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Speaker 2: with my hands, and that was the idea, and I

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Speaker 2: had never really been solitary, and I think being in

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Speaker 2: so many social situations in that job made me long

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Speaker 2: to be alone and to learn to work in a

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Speaker 2: different way. I quit my job with this idea sort

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Speaker 2: of almost out of nowhere, of becoming a basket weaver.

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Speaker 2: And I was not like a crafty person. I had

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Speaker 2: never done anything with my hands, and I'd always sort

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Speaker 2: of lived in my head as a writer and editor.

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Speaker 2: So in a way it was a big break. Someone

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Speaker 2: had told me about this thing called folk schools, and

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Speaker 2: the best one in America is the oldest one, called

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Speaker 2: the John C. Campbell Folks School in Appalachia, and they

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Speaker 2: didn't have a basket weaving class. When I had decided

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Speaker 2: to quit my job, I decided I wanted to learn

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Speaker 2: to become a basket weaver. But they had a broom

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Speaker 2: making class, and I thought, well, that's natural fibers, so

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Speaker 2: I'll take that. It was the week of the Paris

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Speaker 2: fashion shows that I was, you know, instead of being

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Speaker 2: at the Bristol Hotel and being driven around in a

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Speaker 2: black Mercedes, I was at this place where the mornings

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Speaker 2: if the morning started with this thing called like morning Song,

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Speaker 2: where someone would sing and play the fiddle and tell stories,

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Speaker 2: and there was clog dancing, and it was just this

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Speaker 2: whole experience of just learning to work with your hands.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, it just couldn't have been farther away

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Speaker 2: from where I would have been that week otherwise, and

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Speaker 2: it was incredible. I just loved the idea of meeting

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Speaker 2: these people I never would have met before. And there

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Speaker 2: is something about like you know, you hear about like

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Speaker 2: quilting circles. There is something really beautiful about a bunch

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Speaker 2: of strangers coming together and working on something and learning

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Speaker 2: something at the same time and making something. And there's

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Speaker 2: this kind of intimacy that I realized you can have

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Speaker 2: with strangers. And it doesn't mean that you know you're

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Speaker 2: best friends with them for life, but there is a

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Speaker 2: real connection and that was something I was really missing.

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Speaker 2: There's not a lot of real connection in the fashion bubble.

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Speaker 1: Was there a story that you commission and then like

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Speaker 1: is it cumulative, because I know what I loved about

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Speaker 1: like your tea or you know, even in Backing Domino,

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Speaker 1: that was like the daily utilitarian thing of people making

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Speaker 1: things that were beautiful. Like there was a thread through

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Speaker 1: the magazines that you've shore like, is there a particularly

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Speaker 1: memorable story.

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Speaker 2: I think you're totally right. I mean, I think what

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Speaker 2: I always tried to do as a magazine editor was

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Speaker 2: find people that I thought were doing beautiful, interesting, original

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Speaker 2: things and then sharing that and how they worked and

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Speaker 2: how they thought. And the basket weaving thing did grow

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Speaker 2: out of a story. We were doing a piece on

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Speaker 2: a store that was opening in Mayfair in London, call

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Speaker 2: of the New Craftsman, and it was all crafts people

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Speaker 2: from around the British isles, and we were trying to

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Speaker 2: choose which of the you know, I don't know forty

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Speaker 2: artisans they worked with to feature. And I watched a

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Speaker 2: short video of a basket weaver in Sussex in Lewis

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Speaker 2: called Anne Maria Sullivan, and it was probably two minutes

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Speaker 2: and I was sitting in my office at the New

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Speaker 2: York Times in my life like box of an office,

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Speaker 2: and you saw her going out into the willow field

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Speaker 2: in the winter, all bundled up to harvest her willow

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Speaker 2: and then bringing it back to her beautiful little woods

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Speaker 2: studio and making on the floor barefoot, and I just thought,

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Speaker 2: that's it, that's what I want. It turned out she

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Speaker 2: lived right next to a friend of mine, so we

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Speaker 2: went and took a class with her. But it was

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Speaker 2: like a weird kind of aha moment, and in one

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Speaker 2: way it seemed like a crazy break, a huge break.

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Speaker 2: But in another way, I've always been a gardener, I'd

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Speaker 2: been a garden writer, and I think those jobs that

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Speaker 2: I had, I feel really grateful to have had those jobs,

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Speaker 2: and I loved them. Being an editor of a magazine,

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Speaker 2: I didn't like all the peripheral stuff, but I loved

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Speaker 2: being in the office making a magazine. And in fact,

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Speaker 2: we always called it like making a magazine. It was

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Speaker 2: like a thing we made each month. It wasn't anyway.

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Speaker 2: There is a through line of as you say, say

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Speaker 2: from the magazine, I really like to highlight simple things

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Speaker 2: that are beautiful and useful.

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Speaker 1: Well. One of the things I think that we have

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Speaker 1: in common as well, is, like you know, I come

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Speaker 1: from the food perspective. I'm really interested in not that

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Speaker 1: I'm a farmer, but I'm really interested yea, and farming

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Speaker 1: and transformation of like the natural world. Yeah, product, and

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Speaker 1: then how that embodies the environment and the tradition and

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Speaker 1: like what people have at hand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's everything. I feel like

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Speaker 2: you just sort of nailed it. It's you know, about

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Speaker 2: the ways one which we're connected to the land, dependent

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Speaker 2: on the land, and all that the land can do

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Speaker 2: for us if we are respectful of its properties, whether

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Speaker 2: that's like you know, making food, making incredible food or baskets.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we're so you know, historically connected to the land.

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Speaker 2: And the way we live now, and especially the way

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Speaker 2: I was living as a magazine editor, is you're very

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Speaker 2: separate from it. It's a thing like, oh, you make

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Speaker 2: a beautiful gardener, you go on holiday. If your livelihood

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Speaker 2: comes from the land, you have a natural respect for it.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's true, whether it's food or basketry

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Speaker 2: or you know, whatever it is, pottery.

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Speaker 1: We're in New York, which is like the most urban

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Speaker 1: of all urban landscapes, but you know another one like

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Speaker 1: that you could think is not urban, but it's like

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Speaker 1: totally built environment is venice right. I wanted to jump

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Speaker 1: forward to a month that you spent in Venice last year,

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Speaker 1: just talking about like the built environment, the natural environment,

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Speaker 1: and like I was completely fascinated about this like basketry

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Speaker 1: project that you were working on. So I'd love you

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Speaker 1: to talk about a little bit the month that you

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Speaker 1: spent there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think, just I think what you were

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Speaker 2: getting at first is we think of Venice as this

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Speaker 2: place of glorious art and architecture, unbelievable alleys and the

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Speaker 2: canals and no cars and we're taking a boat everywhere.

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Speaker 2: But we do think of it as a built environment,

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Speaker 2: which you know it is, but what it really is

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Speaker 2: is a natural environment and a completely unique one. And

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Speaker 2: the city is wholly dependent on the lagoon from you know,

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Speaker 2: which it rises, and I think the lagoon is sort

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Speaker 2: of overlooked or again as we were talking about before,

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Speaker 2: seen as this sort of beautiful scenery outside of Venice.

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Speaker 2: But the connection between Venice as a sort of urban

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Speaker 2: place and the water is completely symbiotic, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean it's why Venice floods, and so much has

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Speaker 2: been done to the lagoon in terms of changing the direction,

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Speaker 2: making it deeper so the big boats can come through

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Speaker 2: and it's deeply affected the plants there. I'll get to

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Speaker 2: basketree in a second, but it's deeply affected the plants there,

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Speaker 2: which you know are really diminishing, and they were the

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Speaker 2: things in part that kept the water from rising. So

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Speaker 2: now there's this sort of artificial mose thing that like

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Speaker 2: this big concrete thing that can come up to it

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Speaker 2: from flooding, which works, but it's not helping the problem.

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Speaker 2: And there's an amazing organization called we are Here Venice

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Speaker 2: But anyway.

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Speaker 1: Zoom around on little little boats stopping the cruise.

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Speaker 2: Radical who found it It sort of single handedly got

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Speaker 2: rid of the cruise ships which were destroying everything because

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Speaker 2: they're just I mean, it's I guess My point is

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Speaker 2: that Venice is a very fragile ecosystem. My husband and

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Speaker 2: I decided we're older, the children are gone, we can

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Speaker 2: work remotely. Why don't we go live somewhere for a

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Speaker 2: month that you know that you kind of place that

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Speaker 2: you can't really get to the heart of by visiting. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: unless you're you know, to see how it works day

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Speaker 2: to day, and you know, Venice is an incredibly hard

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Speaker 2: place to actually live or you know, to go.

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Speaker 1: To the dry cleaner.

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Speaker 2: It's it's insane. It's a really really difficult place to

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Speaker 2: live in a way. But anyway, so we had this idea,

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Speaker 2: and simultaneously I had been asked to do a show

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Speaker 2: of my baskets at a gallery called Casa Yali that's

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Speaker 2: owned by Rosie Kahan, who is a glass designer and

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Speaker 2: has a business called Yali Glass, and it's right outside.

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Speaker 2: So initially I just thought, well, I'll make these baskets

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Speaker 2: from the willow. You know that's local to me. Yes, upstate,

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Speaker 2: I grow a little willow and I have a willow

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Speaker 2: farmer across the river who grows for me, because I

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Speaker 2: decided I didn't actually want to be a farmer, so

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Speaker 2: I just thought, I'll show these baskets that I've made

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Speaker 2: in New York. And as soon as I got to Venice,

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Speaker 2: I realized that was a crazy idea because basketry is

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Speaker 2: always about a particular place, and I thought, if I'm

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Speaker 2: showing baskets in Venice, they should be connected to Venice,

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Speaker 2: to its landscape, to its plants, and to the history

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Speaker 2: of basketry and Venice. And as you know, I'm obsessed

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Speaker 2: with research. I love researching things, so I thought well,

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Speaker 2: I'm here for a month, and Rosie said, you can

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Speaker 2: use this gallery space it's empty, as a sort of residency.

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Speaker 2: And so I started to research Venetian baskets and there

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Speaker 2: was no information. I mean, in general, baskets are sort

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Speaker 2: of the bottom of the barrel in terms of craft,

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Speaker 2: and in a place like Italy and Venice in particular,

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Speaker 2: there's so much incredible high culture that no one was

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Speaker 2: bothering to think about, you know, preserving like the velvet

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Speaker 2: and yeah, exactly do Yeah, they weren't like, let's save

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Speaker 2: the baskets. So I couldn't find any information. So I

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Speaker 2: started to research through paintings Tintoretto and Caneletto, and it

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Speaker 2: was fascinating. And as we'll probably talk about later, the

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Speaker 2: way I really like to travel is to have a

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Speaker 2: way into a place, and so this was like the

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Speaker 2: perfect storm. It's just the dream where I could research

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Speaker 2: basketry through art, and it gave me a way to

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Speaker 2: kind of make my way through the churches and museums.

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Speaker 1: Of whichever, like church or museums even stuff. I just

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Speaker 1: then I just went for it.

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Speaker 2: I just went like, you know, it's just a way

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Speaker 2: to look at everything and just start picking out the baskets.

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Speaker 1: And the baskets like a motif through all of the

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Speaker 1: all of that art, like in jail.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's like when there's you know, it's not

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Speaker 2: in a kind of royal painting or necessarily religious painting,

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Speaker 2: but paintings that are about everyday life, Okay, and you

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Speaker 2: start seeing the same basket over and over again. So

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Speaker 2: that was one half of it, and the other half was, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I want to use the plants here. And that's when

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Speaker 2: Jane Demasto took me into the lagoon and we started,

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Speaker 2: you know, she works, she's a biologist, she works with

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Speaker 2: all kinds of scientists and botanists tracking the plant life there,

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Speaker 2: and I realized how diminished everything was, and that plants

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Speaker 2: that had been natural and native to the wetlands and

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Speaker 2: it's sort of a swampy you know, it goes from

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Speaker 2: land to kind of silt and then underwater that the

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Speaker 2: water had just become so oversalinated that they didn't anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting that, like there are really interesting people returning

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Speaker 1: to the city, because yeah, we're talking ten years ago,

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Speaker 1: it was like, okay, that is a city set to

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Speaker 1: be a stone set in amber all the young people

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Speaker 1: were living. Exactly why is it now? Do you think

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Speaker 1: that there's like a return For.

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Speaker 2: One, it's one of the most spectacular, beautiful places.

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Speaker 1: Its beautiful city in the way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and there's nothing like it anywhere in

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Speaker 2: the world. But I think that people are starting to

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Speaker 2: feel a real responsibility to it, and just the beauty

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Speaker 2: of it is drawing people back. But there is a

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Speaker 2: really interesting group of people living there now, both local

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Speaker 2: and kind of expats.

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Speaker 1: We're almost kind of going back in, you know, leaping forward.

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Speaker 1: We're not starting at the beginning of your of your travels,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, it's not chronological, but you've just

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Speaker 1: come back from Morocco, which is like the next evolution

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Speaker 1: of the basket kind of project. Can you tell me

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Speaker 1: a little bit about this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I've been asked by a friend of our

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Speaker 2: to do a show on Moroccan basketry Berber basketry at

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Speaker 2: the Ysel Museum in Marrakesh. Basically, what we see in

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Speaker 2: the Souk is kind of in one way it's the

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Speaker 2: death of Moroccan basketry because they are objects that are

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Speaker 2: completely made for us as tourists. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: it's a way that the tradition is still living because

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Speaker 2: there is a market for it. But the Berbers are

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Speaker 2: Amazegu as they preferred to be called, are the sort

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Speaker 2: of indigenous nomadic semi nomadic tribes that have been in

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Speaker 2: Morocco since, you know, before the Arabs, before the Spanish,

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Speaker 2: before the French. Everyone. And what I was hoping to

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Speaker 2: find and did find are these pockets of places where

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Speaker 2: people are still making for themselves and for their own use.

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Speaker 2: Is it in the south of the North both I

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Speaker 2: was in the north, in the Reef. We took a

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Speaker 2: really incredible road trip from the kind of Atlantic side,

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Speaker 2: the Tangier side, over the Reef mountains to the Mediterranean side.

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Speaker 2: It was such a fun week because it got I

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Speaker 2: got to sort of indulge in all my kind of

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Speaker 2: research fantasies of like going into the homes of collectors,

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Speaker 2: going into archives. I love an archive.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because like you're just talking about

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Speaker 1: doing a road trip in Morocco. But I guess people

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Speaker 1: don't really realize because they go to Marrakesh, or maybe

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Speaker 1: they trans transfer through Casablanca, maybe Fairs Tangier. Let's say

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Speaker 1: they usually fly between those things. But actually, Morocco is

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Speaker 1: an incredible road trip country. Yes, and even you know,

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Speaker 1: no one would think, really, oh, I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: my own driver in this.

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Speaker 2: Now, I don't that would be probably be hard. I

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Speaker 2: don't know that you could. Well, I think, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: guess obviously you could.

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Speaker 1: I think it'd be a It's a fun adventure also

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Speaker 1: because it's like wildly different landscapes, and I think the

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Speaker 1: idea of what it is. You know, you can go

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Speaker 1: up into the Atlas Mountains going once and like it

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Speaker 1: was in the spring, and you know, there's these just

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Speaker 1: like wedge valleys full of roses. R's incredible. And then

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Speaker 1: another time it's like.

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Speaker 2: It's a rock boss yes, or then it's a rocky

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Speaker 2: arad landscape, or then it's a pine forest. But the

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Speaker 2: views and the expanse and the space.

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Speaker 1: Well. The other thing as well is like some parts

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Speaker 1: you can go there and you're like you feel like

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Speaker 1: you're in southern Italy in a wine region. Like it's

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Speaker 1: the most hilarious thing because you know you're not supposed

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Speaker 1: to drink alcohol there, which of course, but there's like

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Speaker 1: a rose that everyone drinks, right. And I went and

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Speaker 1: visited or talked to the wine maker about the Moroccan

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Speaker 1: wine and actually not horrible. Not it's a daily kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, but you know you think that it's you know,

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Speaker 1: they're not wine producers. But then I asked the guy, okay,

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Speaker 1: so how many bottles are you doing? And it was

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Speaker 1: like you think it would be ten thousand or something

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Speaker 1: and he said two million. Who's buying that export? I've

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Speaker 1: never had Moroccan wine at a restaurant in you know,

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Speaker 1: in New York or Dada. And he said, I said,

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Speaker 1: how many bottles any of you exporting in a country

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Speaker 1: where alcohol's banned? And he was like none, really, yeah exactly. Yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 1: it's just to say that, like.

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Speaker 2: Wait, but alcohol is not banned, not banned, but you're

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Speaker 2: not it's not too well again, there's a you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a mix of populations there, so for sure, for sure.

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Speaker 1: I just mean that it's like you don't think of

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Speaker 1: it as a wine it's.

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Speaker 2: Not Ireland or it's not it's not Ireland where everyone's strong,

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Speaker 2: or France where there's great wine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, I shouldn't say that, but it's just that

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Speaker 1: it's not like a place necessarily you think as a

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Speaker 1: wine making region and I think like sometimes people have

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Speaker 1: a view of Morocco as being one yes kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: But I think that's the thing. I mean, that's you know,

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Speaker 2: not to just out your business, but that is what

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Speaker 2: you do, and that is how I like to travel,

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Speaker 2: where you're finding different ways into a place and it's

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Speaker 2: high and it's low, and it's you know, the great

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Speaker 2: fancy hotel and also a shack somewhere on the beach,

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Speaker 2: and Morocco is you know, rich with that, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's hard for people to find on their own.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you're seeing someone on a trip and

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Speaker 1: they're like posting on Instagram, that's one of the actual

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of problems with like traveling

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Speaker 1: and tourism and social media. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: like when you see someone on a trip, which I

378
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Speaker 1: was looking at your trip because you don't post that often,

379
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Speaker 1: and it's that feeling that someone's on fire in curiosity,

380
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Speaker 1: I kind of like get super excited and I was

381
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Speaker 1: like thrilled to talk to you about that particular trip.

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Speaker 2: I did feel on fire because it was a kind

383
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Speaker 2: of trip that was like firing all my synapses of

384
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Speaker 2: like going into beautiful houses, going into museums, meeting weavers,

385
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Speaker 2: and then I mean, I'll tell you what I thought

386
00:21:01,944 --> 00:21:04,184
Speaker 2: was sort of magical for me. But obviously I had

387
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Speaker 2: a kind of privileged access in that I had this

388
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Speaker 2: itinerary worked out, we had researched things, I had you know,

389
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Speaker 2: Arabic speaking translator from the museum who is also just

390
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Speaker 2: a sort of really smart, wonderful person, and the driver

391
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Speaker 2: was great. But I think, you know, for all of us,

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Speaker 2: even if we go to a place without that kind

393
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Speaker 2: of access, having a particular interest and bringing that interest

394
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Speaker 2: of yours into a place is such a fantastic way

395
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Speaker 2: to kind of connect to a place in a way

396
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Speaker 2: that you wouldn't really do otherwise. On this sort of

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Speaker 2: Morocco trip like you're talking about, and whether it's you know,

398
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Speaker 2: art or craft or music, whatever, food, whatever your thing is,

399
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Speaker 2: it just allows you to travel through a place you

400
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Speaker 2: know and get to know it better or get to

401
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Speaker 2: know the peace exactly.

402
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Speaker 1: It's like the crack in the door that you have

403
00:22:00,904 --> 00:22:03,784
Speaker 1: to push. Yeah, and then you asked to be invited

404
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Speaker 1: into these people that are both I mean.

405
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Speaker 2: If someone if you're interested in food and someone else

406
00:22:08,984 --> 00:22:11,544
Speaker 2: there is interested in food, they're thrilled to meet you,

407
00:22:11,784 --> 00:22:15,384
Speaker 2: and yes, exactly, it's the door opens and then they're like,

408
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Speaker 2: you need to talk to this person or go to

409
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Speaker 2: this place because.

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Speaker 1: It's a deeper layer than like, oh, I'm fascinated by

411
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Speaker 1: your culture and your sites in your city. If that

412
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Speaker 1: makes sense to go, then like you plug into someone's

413
00:22:26,904 --> 00:22:30,544
Speaker 1: like minded passion or respect. And that's also like when

414
00:22:30,664 --> 00:22:33,264
Speaker 1: all the doors just swing open. I remember we went

415
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Speaker 1: on a trip to together. Now we've been on a

416
00:22:37,784 --> 00:22:42,704
Speaker 1: futures together, but the iconic one was in textiles in India, right,

417
00:22:42,784 --> 00:22:45,624
Speaker 1: So you know, after you'd left T I kind of

418
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Speaker 1: wrote a very earnest letter to you because you know,

419
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Speaker 1: I was like my favorite editor. I just love your

420
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Speaker 1: point of view and admired the magazines that you created.

421
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Speaker 1: So I wrote you and I was like starting the business,

422
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Speaker 1: and I said, hey, I don't know how how I

423
00:23:02,344 --> 00:23:05,304
Speaker 1: even presume that this could possibly be possible, but would

424
00:23:05,344 --> 00:23:08,984
Speaker 1: you be interested in like exploring Indian textiles with me?

425
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Speaker 1: And so you and I went on a research trip.

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Speaker 2: First, did we Yeah?

427
00:23:13,264 --> 00:23:13,864
Speaker 1: Yeah we did.

428
00:23:14,064 --> 00:23:14,543
Speaker 2: We didn't.

429
00:23:14,944 --> 00:23:16,904
Speaker 1: No, we we did because we went, Yes we did.

430
00:23:16,984 --> 00:23:18,984
Speaker 1: We did it beforehand, I'm telling you we did.

431
00:23:19,024 --> 00:23:20,064
Speaker 2: I have a really bad memory.

432
00:23:20,104 --> 00:23:23,104
Speaker 1: No, we did one. So we went and arrived in

433
00:23:23,184 --> 00:23:27,664
Speaker 1: di Vali in Rajastan and then we went to Bengal.

434
00:23:28,064 --> 00:23:31,104
Speaker 2: David, I have to mention that. So so you asked

435
00:23:31,104 --> 00:23:35,344
Speaker 2: me to co lead this this kind of craft textile

436
00:23:36,024 --> 00:23:38,984
Speaker 2: trip to India with you, and you know you've never

437
00:23:39,184 --> 00:23:43,424
Speaker 2: asked me again. It was kind of a disaster.

438
00:23:44,304 --> 00:23:46,144
Speaker 1: You know what. Well, if you ask anyone that came

439
00:23:46,224 --> 00:23:49,824
Speaker 1: with us, it's you know, our mutual friend said, it's

440
00:23:49,864 --> 00:23:51,864
Speaker 1: like still the best trip that she's ever done. So

441
00:23:52,264 --> 00:23:52,704
Speaker 1: it was.

442
00:23:53,184 --> 00:23:55,544
Speaker 2: It made me so stressed out. It made me realize

443
00:23:55,544 --> 00:23:59,224
Speaker 2: I could never do your job. The stress of wanting

444
00:23:59,304 --> 00:24:00,864
Speaker 2: everything to be perfect.

445
00:24:01,064 --> 00:24:03,504
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, of course, but you know the other.

446
00:24:03,384 --> 00:24:04,543
Speaker 2: Thing was just hard in India.

447
00:24:04,944 --> 00:24:06,824
Speaker 1: Well for sure. We can talk about how we almost

448
00:24:06,824 --> 00:24:12,344
Speaker 1: burned down calcutt up a little bit later, but just

449
00:24:12,424 --> 00:24:15,584
Speaker 1: on that point, like I'm on so many dozens of

450
00:24:15,624 --> 00:24:18,664
Speaker 1: WhatsApp groups now of people that fall in love with

451
00:24:18,704 --> 00:24:21,464
Speaker 1: each other and on a trip, yes, exactly. I remember

452
00:24:21,504 --> 00:24:24,864
Speaker 1: my colleagues at Conneaus Traveler. You know, I was a

453
00:24:24,864 --> 00:24:27,024
Speaker 1: bit of a lone wolf travel writer just like bopped

454
00:24:27,024 --> 00:24:28,504
Speaker 1: off and did my thing and came in every so

455
00:24:28,544 --> 00:24:30,424
Speaker 1: often for the pitch meetings. But yeah, it's like if

456
00:24:30,464 --> 00:24:32,024
Speaker 1: you're an editor at large, as you well know, it

457
00:24:32,144 --> 00:24:33,704
Speaker 1: just means they want you out of the office. You

458
00:24:33,784 --> 00:24:37,263
Speaker 1: don't bother large. They don't want to see when I

459
00:24:37,264 --> 00:24:39,064
Speaker 1: told them I was starting this business because it really

460
00:24:39,224 --> 00:24:42,864
Speaker 1: started in India actually on a group trip, because I thought, oh, actually,

461
00:24:43,664 --> 00:24:46,904
Speaker 1: India is such a place, and they plug into this

462
00:24:47,104 --> 00:24:50,224
Speaker 1: like not exaggerated, it's real, but exaggerated sense. You know,

463
00:24:50,224 --> 00:24:50,864
Speaker 1: it's it's so.

464
00:24:51,664 --> 00:24:56,424
Speaker 2: You created such beautiful experiences there. I mean I think

465
00:24:57,024 --> 00:25:00,064
Speaker 2: you know sometimes you describe your business as a magazine

466
00:25:00,144 --> 00:25:04,104
Speaker 2: story brought into life, and I think that was what

467
00:25:04,144 --> 00:25:07,424
Speaker 2: you created. When did you send thousands of candles?

468
00:25:07,504 --> 00:25:10,304
Speaker 1: Well, I mean from you that's a big compliment. But yeah,

469
00:25:10,344 --> 00:25:13,624
Speaker 1: we were in a place in Maheshwa. There's an extraordinary hotel,

470
00:25:13,864 --> 00:25:16,824
Speaker 1: maybe like one of the defining hotels of like what

471
00:25:16,944 --> 00:25:20,864
Speaker 1: I'm yes, why I'm interested in the way it's personal, beautiful,

472
00:25:20,904 --> 00:25:22,024
Speaker 1: grounded in the place.

473
00:25:22,424 --> 00:25:24,144
Speaker 2: Couldn't be anywhere else than where it.

474
00:25:24,064 --> 00:25:27,304
Speaker 1: Is exactly kind of every corner you go around is

475
00:25:27,384 --> 00:25:32,024
Speaker 1: sort of minhog era, well interious, no, and so you know,

476
00:25:32,104 --> 00:25:34,064
Speaker 1: one of the things that they do is they take

477
00:25:34,104 --> 00:25:36,584
Speaker 1: people out on the boat at dusk and then put

478
00:25:36,624 --> 00:25:39,104
Speaker 1: candles through and so it's almost floating, like floating loads

479
00:25:39,104 --> 00:25:41,344
Speaker 1: of candles candles, but of course, like I wanted to

480
00:25:41,424 --> 00:25:42,464
Speaker 1: do it.

481
00:25:42,784 --> 00:25:45,744
Speaker 2: You know, ten thousand candles in.

482
00:25:45,624 --> 00:25:48,704
Speaker 1: That direction on leaves as well, so like not like

483
00:25:48,784 --> 00:25:51,664
Speaker 1: some giant waste that's going to be hitting down the the.

484
00:25:51,824 --> 00:25:53,424
Speaker 2: So they could be collected afterwards.

485
00:25:53,504 --> 00:25:55,664
Speaker 1: Well no, they they just like the candles go out

486
00:25:55,704 --> 00:25:58,024
Speaker 1: and then the leaves just you know, become part of

487
00:25:58,024 --> 00:25:59,784
Speaker 1: the river. I think it's just important to say that.

488
00:25:59,824 --> 00:26:02,384
Speaker 1: In fact, it was someone else that kind of said

489
00:26:02,384 --> 00:26:04,824
Speaker 1: to me, berated me the first time that I did that.

490
00:26:04,904 --> 00:26:09,424
Speaker 1: I was like, on leaves actually bidegradable anyway, that's as

491
00:26:09,424 --> 00:26:11,824
Speaker 1: an aside, but you know, sometimes you can do these

492
00:26:11,904 --> 00:26:15,104
Speaker 1: kind of I think one or two of the dinners

493
00:26:15,464 --> 00:26:18,104
Speaker 1: that you can create because candles are so and light

494
00:26:18,224 --> 00:26:21,224
Speaker 1: is so important. And we went during the Festival of Lights,

495
00:26:21,224 --> 00:26:23,904
Speaker 1: which is Divali, which has become a lot about fireworks,

496
00:26:23,944 --> 00:26:27,104
Speaker 1: but it's much about candles too. And I remember actually

497
00:26:27,664 --> 00:26:30,304
Speaker 1: we were in Calcutter. And sometimes I have like an

498
00:26:30,544 --> 00:26:34,344
Speaker 1: exaggerated sense of like what I want a dinner or

499
00:26:34,344 --> 00:26:37,304
Speaker 1: a thing to be. And so I was thinking calcutter, yeah,

500
00:26:37,304 --> 00:26:40,944
Speaker 1: that decrepit colonial yeah era clok exactly, because it just

501
00:26:40,984 --> 00:26:43,264
Speaker 1: doesn't exist anymore. But I was setting up the dinner,

502
00:26:43,304 --> 00:26:45,664
Speaker 1: you know, all the guests were coming later, and Debra

503
00:26:45,824 --> 00:26:48,544
Speaker 1: was coming later too. What had happened is there'd been

504
00:26:48,664 --> 00:26:52,744
Speaker 1: like a national shortage of you know, wax candles, beautiful

505
00:26:53,024 --> 00:26:56,104
Speaker 1: like safe wax candles. I just remember you coming to

506
00:26:56,144 --> 00:26:58,543
Speaker 1: me and saying, you know, there's no candles in India

507
00:26:58,624 --> 00:27:02,064
Speaker 1: right now, and I was literally, what the fuck it's true.

508
00:27:02,864 --> 00:27:05,263
Speaker 1: I was like, come on, you can find candles in India,

509
00:27:05,384 --> 00:27:07,344
Speaker 1: I mean exactly, And so we send people out in

510
00:27:07,424 --> 00:27:10,464
Speaker 1: every conceivable direction to find them. Anyway. They came back

511
00:27:10,464 --> 00:27:13,144
Speaker 1: with candles. Great. So I'm you know, setting up the

512
00:27:13,184 --> 00:27:17,184
Speaker 1: dinner and everyone's about to arrive and start lighting the candles,

513
00:27:17,784 --> 00:27:20,944
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, they kind of melt very

514
00:27:21,064 --> 00:27:23,504
Speaker 1: very quickly, and then they're starting to kind of flame,

515
00:27:23,664 --> 00:27:25,824
Speaker 1: and it turns out they're paraffin candles, the ones that

516
00:27:25,864 --> 00:27:29,904
Speaker 1: are like have been illegal for decades elsewhere, and starting

517
00:27:29,944 --> 00:27:32,263
Speaker 1: to light the table cloths exactly, and there starts to

518
00:27:32,304 --> 00:27:37,184
Speaker 1: be a fire in this wood decrepit kind of Gentleman's Club.

519
00:27:36,984 --> 00:27:39,544
Speaker 2: And again I didn't understand. I was like, why is

520
00:27:39,664 --> 00:27:42,424
Speaker 2: no one blowing out the candles? We're starting a huge

521
00:27:42,424 --> 00:27:45,824
Speaker 2: Fireho why are all these people just standing around? So

522
00:27:46,024 --> 00:27:48,744
Speaker 2: I started going and like blowing out the candles, not

523
00:27:48,864 --> 00:27:51,784
Speaker 2: understanding that they were paraffin and you blow on them

524
00:27:51,824 --> 00:27:54,904
Speaker 2: and like the hot liquid was just all over. I

525
00:27:54,984 --> 00:27:55,784
Speaker 2: was like scalded.

526
00:27:55,904 --> 00:27:58,184
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, So she has a giant burn. And I'm like,

527
00:27:58,184 --> 00:28:00,864
Speaker 1: we're at the end of the thing. The guests are arriving,

528
00:28:01,184 --> 00:28:02,944
Speaker 1: and so they all arrive, and then of course the

529
00:28:02,944 --> 00:28:06,584
Speaker 1: food was disaster because it was like gray English through

530
00:28:06,744 --> 00:28:08,904
Speaker 1: nothing to do with Indian thing, but it ended to

531
00:28:08,904 --> 00:28:10,784
Speaker 1: be like such a comedy of errors that it was

532
00:28:11,104 --> 00:28:13,064
Speaker 1: a perfect ending. Although I think.

533
00:28:12,944 --> 00:28:16,144
Speaker 2: Those kind of disasters are better in retrospect. They make

534
00:28:16,224 --> 00:28:19,144
Speaker 2: for good stories, even though if they're really stressful.

535
00:28:19,704 --> 00:28:22,224
Speaker 1: Well of course, but the last image that I remember

536
00:28:22,264 --> 00:28:25,544
Speaker 1: of that night with Debra was her running water in

537
00:28:25,584 --> 00:28:31,064
Speaker 1: the bathroom like this with the bird smoking a cigarette.

538
00:28:31,184 --> 00:28:32,344
Speaker 1: It was kind of amazing.

539
00:28:32,824 --> 00:28:34,504
Speaker 2: God, you've never asked me to do that again?

540
00:28:34,664 --> 00:28:36,944
Speaker 1: No, no, no, any time.

541
00:28:36,904 --> 00:28:39,704
Speaker 2: No no, no, there's a reason you haven't. It stresses

542
00:28:39,704 --> 00:28:40,824
Speaker 2: me out Yeah.

543
00:28:40,864 --> 00:28:43,744
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544
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552
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553
00:29:13,784 --> 00:29:18,064
Speaker 1: is one step closer. After you left the magazine, you

554
00:29:18,144 --> 00:29:22,584
Speaker 1: started to do a column four t called material Culture,

555
00:29:22,824 --> 00:29:24,184
Speaker 1: And I think that's the kind of the first time

556
00:29:24,184 --> 00:29:26,424
Speaker 1: we had any kind of connection around actually travel. We

557
00:29:26,464 --> 00:29:30,104
Speaker 1: helped you with a trip in Japan. Is there things

558
00:29:30,144 --> 00:29:33,704
Speaker 1: that like you've taken from Japanese? I mean, I think.

559
00:29:33,944 --> 00:29:37,024
Speaker 2: Probably this is how I really got into researching around

560
00:29:37,064 --> 00:29:41,024
Speaker 2: craft and traveling to places using craft as a way

561
00:29:41,384 --> 00:29:43,984
Speaker 2: into a place. So Japan was the first trip, and

562
00:29:44,064 --> 00:29:48,344
Speaker 2: I was doing a story on a catazome indigo dier

563
00:29:48,424 --> 00:29:50,864
Speaker 2: So it's a kind of stencil on fabric and indigo.

564
00:29:50,944 --> 00:29:53,784
Speaker 2: And I thought, like, I'm going to Japan for the

565
00:29:53,824 --> 00:29:56,664
Speaker 2: first time. I've never been there. You know, my assignment

566
00:29:56,904 --> 00:29:59,864
Speaker 2: is just this one thing, but I'd like to get

567
00:29:59,984 --> 00:30:01,864
Speaker 2: as much out of Japan as I can, and so

568
00:30:02,024 --> 00:30:06,344
Speaker 2: I appealed to you and worked with people that you

569
00:30:06,344 --> 00:30:09,904
Speaker 2: know on your team that helped me plan an entire itinerary.

570
00:30:09,944 --> 00:30:13,384
Speaker 2: It was really really into hans of meeting crafts people

571
00:30:13,704 --> 00:30:18,024
Speaker 2: all over, going to a pottery village, woodworkers, metal workers.

572
00:30:18,464 --> 00:30:21,424
Speaker 2: Because of working with your team, I think I probably saw,

573
00:30:21,544 --> 00:30:27,144
Speaker 2: you know, fifteen or sixteen workshops crafts people in eight days,

574
00:30:27,344 --> 00:30:29,104
Speaker 2: which I think is why people think I know a

575
00:30:29,144 --> 00:30:31,584
Speaker 2: country better than I do. Why it's like I'd been

576
00:30:31,624 --> 00:30:34,224
Speaker 2: to India once and you thought like maybe I could

577
00:30:34,264 --> 00:30:37,464
Speaker 2: co lead a trip there with you, is because I'd

578
00:30:37,504 --> 00:30:38,704
Speaker 2: go so hard.

579
00:30:38,504 --> 00:30:41,624
Speaker 1: Yes your research, and I'd like to go. I think

580
00:30:42,144 --> 00:30:45,904
Speaker 1: Japan is, like, I mean interesting for a million reasons. Yeah,

581
00:30:45,944 --> 00:30:50,384
Speaker 1: but like I wonder if it's the only only country.

582
00:30:49,904 --> 00:30:52,904
Speaker 2: Where you know the craft is revered.

583
00:30:53,184 --> 00:30:55,064
Speaker 1: Well, exactly is exactly what I was gonna say, is

584
00:30:55,104 --> 00:30:58,904
Speaker 1: in the National Treasures, Right, It's like intangible heritage exactly.

585
00:30:59,064 --> 00:31:01,864
Speaker 2: There's all these ideas that it's so hard to imagine

586
00:31:01,904 --> 00:31:06,104
Speaker 2: us having in America, where we you know, celebrate an

587
00:31:06,144 --> 00:31:08,624
Speaker 2: idea of an intangible heritage.

588
00:31:09,104 --> 00:31:10,744
Speaker 1: I mean, the last time I went to Japan was

589
00:31:10,784 --> 00:31:14,224
Speaker 1: I think in August, and so I went to Fukushima actually,

590
00:31:14,424 --> 00:31:18,104
Speaker 1: and I went to see one of the oldest bonzei

591
00:31:18,264 --> 00:31:24,264
Speaker 1: growers makers, curbersper You know, I was fascinated by that,

592
00:31:24,424 --> 00:31:28,024
Speaker 1: but I mean it completely blew my mind. And what

593
00:31:28,744 --> 00:31:33,784
Speaker 1: this particular bonzei maker is inspired initially by the silver

594
00:31:33,944 --> 00:31:36,424
Speaker 1: pine that grows and it's the most Japanese thing in

595
00:31:36,424 --> 00:31:40,264
Speaker 1: the whole world that grows on the top of the volcano.

596
00:31:40,784 --> 00:31:44,944
Speaker 1: The conditions of certain Bonzaye of that particular silver pine

597
00:31:45,024 --> 00:31:48,264
Speaker 1: is that they can only sell it at like eighty

598
00:31:48,384 --> 00:31:53,544
Speaker 1: years age. So it's bridging right, generation and generation.

599
00:31:53,744 --> 00:31:57,904
Speaker 2: So someone's working on something that they will never see solved,

600
00:31:57,904 --> 00:32:00,744
Speaker 2: but maybe working on something that somebody else started. Yeah,

601
00:32:01,024 --> 00:32:03,304
Speaker 2: the feeling, I mean, that's another thing that's so amazing

602
00:32:03,384 --> 00:32:10,144
Speaker 2: about Japan is the sense of ancestors and generational connection.

603
00:32:10,264 --> 00:32:11,984
Speaker 2: For lack of a better world, I feel like they

604
00:32:12,064 --> 00:32:15,864
Speaker 2: really feel like a lot of the crafts people really

605
00:32:15,904 --> 00:32:20,744
Speaker 2: feel all the preceding generations that led up to their

606
00:32:20,824 --> 00:32:21,864
Speaker 2: doing what they're doing.

607
00:32:22,264 --> 00:32:24,304
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, one of the things that is

608
00:32:24,904 --> 00:32:27,984
Speaker 1: on one side, the most exciting thing about what we

609
00:32:28,064 --> 00:32:31,504
Speaker 1: do and what we're both interested in is when and

610
00:32:31,624 --> 00:32:33,984
Speaker 1: it's it's why material culture. The column that you did

611
00:32:34,024 --> 00:32:37,144
Speaker 1: is such a brilliant name. The thing that excites me

612
00:32:37,224 --> 00:32:39,944
Speaker 1: is living culture in those things, and a.

613
00:32:39,984 --> 00:32:42,064
Speaker 2: Lot of times it's not the high culture.

614
00:32:42,504 --> 00:32:48,024
Speaker 1: It's folk culture or popular culture for sure, or natural transformation.

615
00:32:48,344 --> 00:32:51,464
Speaker 1: I feel really privileged that we're able to do this

616
00:32:51,544 --> 00:32:56,304
Speaker 1: specific thing. They gave me and veat my boyfriend a

617
00:32:56,384 --> 00:33:00,744
Speaker 1: seedling to fashion. How quickly did you kill it? Well?

618
00:33:00,904 --> 00:33:02,384
Speaker 1: I was so terrible.

619
00:33:02,424 --> 00:33:04,824
Speaker 2: I mean he had arrested home.

620
00:33:04,944 --> 00:33:08,504
Speaker 1: Debora knows Vitan is like he's an architect and incredibly

621
00:33:08,544 --> 00:33:11,024
Speaker 1: thoughtful and just like precision totally.

622
00:33:11,264 --> 00:33:13,024
Speaker 2: You probably stuffed it in the.

623
00:33:12,944 --> 00:33:17,344
Speaker 1: Bar, snapped one of the branches. But with the waiya so,

624
00:33:17,424 --> 00:33:19,824
Speaker 1: I don't know, mine is going to be really wacky.

625
00:33:19,984 --> 00:33:21,984
Speaker 1: But you know, they say to us come back in

626
00:33:22,024 --> 00:33:26,104
Speaker 1: a few years. I mean that was like quite moving.

627
00:33:26,424 --> 00:33:29,304
Speaker 2: Yes, No, the dedication to craft in Japan is like

628
00:33:29,344 --> 00:33:31,624
Speaker 2: nothing I've ever seen. I mean said this Dier. I

629
00:33:31,664 --> 00:33:35,144
Speaker 2: went to see this, ye. I mean he made all

630
00:33:35,224 --> 00:33:41,264
Speaker 2: his own stencils based on like seventeenth century stencils, and

631
00:33:41,344 --> 00:33:43,624
Speaker 2: he had, you know, an indigo dive that in the

632
00:33:43,664 --> 00:33:47,464
Speaker 2: backyard and he'd been doing his craft for I don't know,

633
00:33:47,504 --> 00:33:50,304
Speaker 2: thirty or forty years. Didn't feel he was a master

634
00:33:51,144 --> 00:33:54,464
Speaker 2: and was so connected to his dive that he you know,

635
00:33:54,504 --> 00:33:58,904
Speaker 2: he couldn't go to his son's wedding because with these

636
00:33:58,944 --> 00:34:01,144
Speaker 2: dive outs, you have to watch the fire and make

637
00:34:01,184 --> 00:34:05,824
Speaker 2: sure the temperature and mix the indigo. So I mean

638
00:34:05,864 --> 00:34:09,944
Speaker 2: his life he was just so dedicated that you know,

639
00:34:10,264 --> 00:34:13,623
Speaker 2: I think probably personal parts of his life really suffered.

640
00:34:14,183 --> 00:34:16,783
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean exactly the same things. These bonds they

641
00:34:16,784 --> 00:34:20,264
Speaker 1: can't leave that there, Yeah, they cannot leave. And also

642
00:34:20,303 --> 00:34:23,223
Speaker 1: that I mean on a side, they're getting robbed occasionally,

643
00:34:23,303 --> 00:34:25,823
Speaker 1: so now they have these big fences and oh god,

644
00:34:25,824 --> 00:34:28,424
Speaker 1: that was depressing to hear. But you know, just the

645
00:34:28,464 --> 00:34:31,703
Speaker 1: idea that it's alive in that way. Yeah, And you know,

646
00:34:31,743 --> 00:34:34,984
Speaker 1: we had a very privileged access, but sometimes travel and

647
00:34:35,024 --> 00:34:37,504
Speaker 1: when you open that door and you're curious and you

648
00:34:37,904 --> 00:34:41,743
Speaker 1: offer that experience, even if it's a rare experience. We

649
00:34:41,743 --> 00:34:47,663
Speaker 1: were contributing to a side income that you know, maybe

650
00:34:48,143 --> 00:34:51,783
Speaker 1: plugs the whole of the theft or continues to be

651
00:34:51,904 --> 00:34:55,303
Speaker 1: able to allow them to have some person when it's

652
00:34:55,344 --> 00:34:59,743
Speaker 1: too hot to take in those gigantic bonds. I like, inside, yah,

653
00:35:00,344 --> 00:35:01,024
Speaker 1: they can't do it.

654
00:35:01,183 --> 00:35:05,703
Speaker 2: What I was sort of alluding to with these the

655
00:35:05,703 --> 00:35:09,743
Speaker 2: Berber baskets, it's like we were amount to size craft

656
00:35:10,183 --> 00:35:13,143
Speaker 2: and folk culture a lot of the time, and we

657
00:35:13,183 --> 00:35:16,703
Speaker 2: want it to be a certain way. But the fact

658
00:35:16,984 --> 00:35:21,904
Speaker 2: that basket weavers in say Morocco can earn a living

659
00:35:21,984 --> 00:35:26,264
Speaker 2: basket weaving even though they're making drek for the soup

660
00:35:26,344 --> 00:35:29,863
Speaker 2: they're making, like you know, fake ormez birken bags out

661
00:35:29,904 --> 00:35:35,183
Speaker 2: of asparto grass or rush or palm. It's alive. It's

662
00:35:35,223 --> 00:35:40,263
Speaker 2: not how you know, we romanticize it necessarily. It's not perfect.

663
00:35:40,623 --> 00:35:43,784
Speaker 1: Do you bring back styles of baskets into your practice

664
00:35:43,824 --> 00:35:47,104
Speaker 1: and then or do you have a usually from a particular.

665
00:35:47,743 --> 00:35:50,863
Speaker 2: I most of my work, the things that I make

666
00:35:50,904 --> 00:35:55,703
Speaker 2: are from a sort of European tradition France, Spain, British Isles.

667
00:35:56,064 --> 00:35:58,383
Speaker 2: But I bring back I mean it's sort of a

668
00:35:58,424 --> 00:36:00,623
Speaker 2: way you know that I travel is I bring back

669
00:36:00,743 --> 00:36:04,424
Speaker 2: baskets that are done in different techniques and want to

670
00:36:04,424 --> 00:36:06,943
Speaker 2: make everything, which is another reason I'm not really good,

671
00:36:07,024 --> 00:36:10,383
Speaker 2: because every beautiful thing that I see I want to

672
00:36:10,384 --> 00:36:12,864
Speaker 2: try and figure it out and make it.

673
00:36:12,944 --> 00:36:15,703
Speaker 1: I love a kind of souvenir somehow. I like the

674
00:36:15,743 --> 00:36:20,663
Speaker 1: little figurines and figurine you stole from Yeah, well exactly.

675
00:36:20,743 --> 00:36:22,464
Speaker 1: I mean I wasn't going to tell that story, but

676
00:36:23,104 --> 00:36:25,463
Speaker 1: you can maybe see that little camel in the back there.

677
00:36:25,663 --> 00:36:29,104
Speaker 1: I really wanted to, yeah, exactly. Our first fight was

678
00:36:29,183 --> 00:36:33,384
Speaker 1: actually about this. There's not been so many. Actually, sometimes

679
00:36:33,464 --> 00:36:36,623
Speaker 1: you just those things imbuse so much meaning, and to

680
00:36:36,703 --> 00:36:39,823
Speaker 1: me that's really important. And I like the bring back

681
00:36:39,944 --> 00:36:42,584
Speaker 1: little knick knacks. That's what I know.

682
00:36:42,743 --> 00:36:46,544
Speaker 2: So it's like it's it's an amazing little object in itself.

683
00:36:46,663 --> 00:36:49,024
Speaker 2: It reminds you of the trip, and it reminds you

684
00:36:49,064 --> 00:36:53,143
Speaker 2: of stealing it out from under. Well, the thing is

685
00:36:53,263 --> 00:36:56,703
Speaker 2: that you winning a fight exactly. The other animal experience

686
00:36:56,743 --> 00:36:59,584
Speaker 2: that we shared was when we were in the Natural

687
00:36:59,663 --> 00:37:02,863
Speaker 2: History Museum of Calcutta, which if anyone has a chance

688
00:37:02,904 --> 00:37:05,504
Speaker 2: to go, I mean, I love a decrepit place that

689
00:37:06,104 --> 00:37:09,623
Speaker 2: was glorious and ground and at another time, and.

690
00:37:09,544 --> 00:37:13,143
Speaker 1: This makes the old old Egyptian museum look like MoMA,

691
00:37:13,303 --> 00:37:13,904
Speaker 1: for example.

692
00:37:14,984 --> 00:37:19,024
Speaker 2: It's so like the scale of it is ground, the

693
00:37:19,064 --> 00:37:22,424
Speaker 2: beautiful wood built ins, but you know, no money to

694
00:37:22,544 --> 00:37:25,623
Speaker 2: keep it up. And I just remember there being this

695
00:37:25,984 --> 00:37:29,143
Speaker 2: taxidermied I don't even know what kind of animals, may

696
00:37:29,424 --> 00:37:30,263
Speaker 2: a lynx, like.

697
00:37:30,223 --> 00:37:33,024
Speaker 1: A Himalayan mountain lion or something along those lines.

698
00:37:33,064 --> 00:37:35,823
Speaker 2: It must have been like before it was shot, it

699
00:37:36,024 --> 00:37:38,503
Speaker 2: like had just gone mad, and so its eyes were

700
00:37:38,544 --> 00:37:41,623
Speaker 2: bugging out, and it just was like the most insane

701
00:37:41,663 --> 00:37:43,943
Speaker 2: piece of taxidermy. And for a long time we sent

702
00:37:44,024 --> 00:37:46,423
Speaker 2: it back and forth of like as a meme, sort

703
00:37:46,424 --> 00:37:46,943
Speaker 2: of as like.

704
00:37:47,584 --> 00:37:51,064
Speaker 1: At the end of the day exactly. I mean, you

705
00:37:51,104 --> 00:37:53,104
Speaker 1: did have a second degree burner, I have to say

706
00:37:53,944 --> 00:37:57,424
Speaker 1: so fair enough. I wanted to ask you what place

707
00:37:57,984 --> 00:38:01,744
Speaker 1: are you most intrigued to travel to? What is peaking

708
00:38:01,824 --> 00:38:03,183
Speaker 1: your interest right now?

709
00:38:03,663 --> 00:38:07,143
Speaker 2: Well, I'm, you know, deep in this Morocco moment.

710
00:38:07,584 --> 00:38:09,183
Speaker 1: I remember someone that you've never been.

711
00:38:09,263 --> 00:38:12,104
Speaker 2: I've never been to Switzerland, and I'm sort of intrigued

712
00:38:12,104 --> 00:38:15,903
Speaker 2: by the architecture of those chalets and all wood paneled interiors.

713
00:38:15,944 --> 00:38:18,423
Speaker 1: Well, there's one place that I'd love to return with you,

714
00:38:18,504 --> 00:38:22,064
Speaker 1: because we had a very special trip there, and I'm

715
00:38:22,104 --> 00:38:27,984
Speaker 1: like hiding my little souvenir in here with my because

716
00:38:28,024 --> 00:38:30,224
Speaker 1: it was very propped. And look at this, it looks

717
00:38:30,223 --> 00:38:33,183
Speaker 1: like I'm gone to a circuit party. But anyway, I

718
00:38:32,783 --> 00:38:34,904
Speaker 1: have I haven't had a big clacky fan at a

719
00:38:34,904 --> 00:38:38,183
Speaker 1: circuit party, but I do have Spanish friends and one

720
00:38:38,183 --> 00:38:40,703
Speaker 1: of my favorite places that was an amazing trip. It

721
00:38:40,824 --> 00:38:44,823
Speaker 1: was from Spain to the Ferrier the Fair of April,

722
00:38:45,183 --> 00:38:49,224
Speaker 1: and that's like so beautiful. It's like that place where

723
00:38:49,623 --> 00:38:53,024
Speaker 1: costume and culture come alive. Like it's like interesting because

724
00:38:53,024 --> 00:38:56,783
Speaker 1: there's no artifice there somehow it's very exaggerated and it's

725
00:38:56,824 --> 00:38:59,263
Speaker 1: a live culture and it's like that's the thing that

726
00:38:59,303 --> 00:39:03,144
Speaker 1: I get super excited about. And I love that trip,

727
00:39:03,584 --> 00:39:05,743
Speaker 1: you know. And it's also like I've been back a

728
00:39:05,824 --> 00:39:08,383
Speaker 1: number of times. I love that as a prior trip,

729
00:39:08,464 --> 00:39:11,303
Speaker 1: Yes we did one. We love a festival. I love

730
00:39:11,303 --> 00:39:12,343
Speaker 1: a festivalcause it is.

731
00:39:12,344 --> 00:39:14,704
Speaker 2: It is when like a place comes alive.

732
00:39:14,824 --> 00:39:15,824
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's carnival.

733
00:39:16,143 --> 00:39:19,183
Speaker 2: I mean in general, I shy away from places during

734
00:39:19,223 --> 00:39:22,823
Speaker 2: those times because I'm an hedonic. I don't know, because

735
00:39:22,864 --> 00:39:25,303
Speaker 2: I don't like to have that much fun. I don't

736
00:39:25,344 --> 00:39:26,544
Speaker 2: like to lose myself that way.

737
00:39:26,703 --> 00:39:29,184
Speaker 1: No, but I think you know, when they are still

738
00:39:29,223 --> 00:39:33,183
Speaker 1: real and there isn't like a ferris wheel, yeah yeah,

739
00:39:33,223 --> 00:39:36,824
Speaker 1: on top of the festival, like that is the culture

740
00:39:36,864 --> 00:39:37,823
Speaker 1: at its most. Yeah.

741
00:39:37,824 --> 00:39:39,864
Speaker 2: I mean even a place like Harbor Island where we

742
00:39:39,944 --> 00:39:42,504
Speaker 2: used to go with the children during Junkanoo with a

743
00:39:42,544 --> 00:39:46,183
Speaker 2: big parade like it was an amazing thing for the

744
00:39:46,263 --> 00:39:50,623
Speaker 2: children to be to get immersed in a place like

745
00:39:50,663 --> 00:39:52,864
Speaker 2: that and to see the spirit of a place.

746
00:39:53,064 --> 00:39:55,863
Speaker 1: No, for sure. I mean the County Fair like it's

747
00:39:55,904 --> 00:39:59,664
Speaker 1: it's it's got something yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah for sure.

748
00:39:59,984 --> 00:40:02,143
Speaker 1: And if you can plug into that, it's the doorway

749
00:40:02,143 --> 00:40:05,024
Speaker 1: in with people. It's like, I think that people should

750
00:40:05,064 --> 00:40:08,384
Speaker 1: travel for that. I understand that sometimes they're completely rammed

751
00:40:08,464 --> 00:40:10,223
Speaker 1: by people, but if you can figure out a way.

752
00:40:10,263 --> 00:40:12,863
Speaker 1: I've never been to kind in Yeao, but I am

753
00:40:12,904 --> 00:40:15,703
Speaker 1: desperate to do really. Yeah, absolutely, I really want to

754
00:40:15,743 --> 00:40:18,463
Speaker 1: do that. But you know, I returned and I wanted

755
00:40:18,544 --> 00:40:21,223
Speaker 1: to talk to about Andalucia because the last time I

756
00:40:21,864 --> 00:40:24,783
Speaker 1: went back. You remember the flowers that we bought in,

757
00:40:25,344 --> 00:40:27,064
Speaker 1: you know, because you've always got You've got the flamenco

758
00:40:27,104 --> 00:40:27,863
Speaker 1: dress beneath.

759
00:40:27,743 --> 00:40:28,744
Speaker 2: You might have giant flower.

760
00:40:29,024 --> 00:40:32,663
Speaker 1: Giant flower. Anyway, we went to like polyester Land because

761
00:40:32,703 --> 00:40:34,183
Speaker 1: no one's going to be paid. Everyone didn't want to

762
00:40:34,223 --> 00:40:37,743
Speaker 1: spend five euros on those things. But honestly, you'd buy

763
00:40:38,024 --> 00:40:40,263
Speaker 1: two or three dresses in your life if you're a

764
00:40:40,263 --> 00:40:43,263
Speaker 1: woman like that, that are really expensive. It's like your

765
00:40:43,263 --> 00:40:46,104
Speaker 1: wedding dress. But there are all the accessories. And I

766
00:40:46,183 --> 00:40:48,424
Speaker 1: bought one of the flowers because it kind of just

767
00:40:48,464 --> 00:40:51,743
Speaker 1: reminds me of the trip. But it's made entirely of feathers. Oh,

768
00:40:51,824 --> 00:40:55,104
Speaker 1: that's amazing, it's seriously beautiful. Oh it's right under the.

769
00:40:55,584 --> 00:40:58,783
Speaker 2: Oh that thing we bought in is that Barcelona?

770
00:40:58,984 --> 00:41:01,263
Speaker 1: No, no, no, that was in Sevil exactly. That's the Expoto.

771
00:41:01,984 --> 00:41:04,584
Speaker 1: So it's like the Moorish heads. Have you ever been

772
00:41:04,623 --> 00:41:06,623
Speaker 1: to the Santa Fe Folk Museum? Oh?

773
00:41:06,703 --> 00:41:10,104
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the folk Art Festival once a year in

774
00:41:10,143 --> 00:41:13,623
Speaker 2: the summer in July where they bring in crafts people

775
00:41:13,743 --> 00:41:16,864
Speaker 2: from I don't know, ninety or one hundred different countries.

776
00:41:16,944 --> 00:41:17,703
Speaker 2: It's incredible.

777
00:41:17,904 --> 00:41:20,343
Speaker 1: I was interested in Santa Fe like I'm interested in

778
00:41:20,384 --> 00:41:22,704
Speaker 1: New Orleans, in the sense that like it's got something

779
00:41:22,783 --> 00:41:24,263
Speaker 1: something like America.

780
00:41:24,344 --> 00:41:25,823
Speaker 2: We haven't talked about America much.

781
00:41:25,984 --> 00:41:26,623
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I.

782
00:41:26,544 --> 00:41:30,263
Speaker 2: Mean, I mean Santa Fe is a completely sort of

783
00:41:30,263 --> 00:41:33,423
Speaker 2: sue generous place as what was the place you just met, oh,

784
00:41:33,464 --> 00:41:35,743
Speaker 2: New Orleans, Like there's nothing like it. I mean, it's

785
00:41:35,944 --> 00:41:39,263
Speaker 2: like it's so quite, it's really foreign. It has such

786
00:41:39,263 --> 00:41:40,424
Speaker 2: a sort of different culture.

787
00:41:40,424 --> 00:41:42,984
Speaker 1: Well it's a mix of culture, that is, it's it's

788
00:41:43,024 --> 00:41:45,904
Speaker 1: the best of all, you know, Santa Fe. I knew

789
00:41:45,904 --> 00:41:49,183
Speaker 1: that that, but I didn't really understand it. What's the

790
00:41:49,344 --> 00:41:51,424
Speaker 1: room of folk miniatures.

791
00:41:51,504 --> 00:41:56,264
Speaker 2: It's oh, Alexander Girard, Yeah, was a fantastic artist architect

792
00:41:56,344 --> 00:41:57,864
Speaker 2: I think it was an architect.

793
00:41:57,544 --> 00:42:00,424
Speaker 1: Yeah, not and he had Alexander Girard has.

794
00:42:00,743 --> 00:42:03,984
Speaker 2: Jonathan Adler is very inspired by Alexander Gerrard. Oh, I

795
00:42:03,984 --> 00:42:07,264
Speaker 2: didn't see like the sort of childlike and humorous.

796
00:42:06,703 --> 00:42:09,344
Speaker 1: And yeah, and in that room in the Folk Museum,

797
00:42:09,904 --> 00:42:11,943
Speaker 1: it's sort of a land of me. It's like it's

798
00:42:11,944 --> 00:42:14,223
Speaker 1: a small world and that kind of little miniature there

799
00:42:14,544 --> 00:42:17,423
Speaker 1: is kind of that. But they basically have created all

800
00:42:17,464 --> 00:42:22,503
Speaker 1: of these worlds of folk art figurines from all around

801
00:42:22,544 --> 00:42:25,064
Speaker 1: the world. And I think, you know, I literally cried

802
00:42:25,104 --> 00:42:27,024
Speaker 1: when I went into that because it is like a

803
00:42:27,143 --> 00:42:29,783
Speaker 1: it's a small world. It's extraordinary I mean that's one

804
00:42:29,824 --> 00:42:32,864
Speaker 1: of the most for me, amazing museums, not only in

805
00:42:32,904 --> 00:42:36,464
Speaker 1: the United States but in the world. It's unreal. And

806
00:42:36,504 --> 00:42:39,504
Speaker 1: if you're and kind of little known, yeah, that's the thing.

807
00:42:39,584 --> 00:42:43,223
Speaker 1: It's like that museum hill in Santa Fe is quite extraordinary.

808
00:42:43,263 --> 00:42:46,223
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the more interesting places to

809
00:42:46,223 --> 00:42:46,584
Speaker 1: travel to.

810
00:42:46,743 --> 00:42:49,064
Speaker 2: Yeah, Afte it's great.

811
00:42:49,344 --> 00:42:53,344
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, yeah, exactly. And there's also a really amazing,

812
00:42:53,824 --> 00:42:58,503
Speaker 1: bizarrely Japanese riokan there really, yes, it's so it's called

813
00:42:58,743 --> 00:43:01,944
Speaker 1: ten Thousand Waves and it's in the hills of Santa

814
00:43:01,944 --> 00:43:05,143
Speaker 1: Fe and it's surrounded by aspen trees. So if you

815
00:43:05,223 --> 00:43:08,743
Speaker 1: go in the fall, it's like completely yellow and you're

816
00:43:08,824 --> 00:43:11,584
Speaker 1: kind of bathing there. It's quite an amazing I mean,

817
00:43:11,783 --> 00:43:14,463
Speaker 1: Stafe is just super weird, right yeah. Yeah.

818
00:43:14,464 --> 00:43:19,144
Speaker 2: And then the whole landscape around Aboquei, around where Georgia

819
00:43:19,143 --> 00:43:23,863
Speaker 2: O'Keeffe was, these sort of white rocks, no, no, incredible.

820
00:43:24,223 --> 00:43:26,544
Speaker 1: If you were to distill down to one thing, I

821
00:43:26,584 --> 00:43:31,223
Speaker 1: know that's that's difficult. But what is that doorway in

822
00:43:31,743 --> 00:43:34,984
Speaker 1: for you when you're going to destinations or travel.

823
00:43:35,104 --> 00:43:39,464
Speaker 2: I mean for me, it's now it's basketry and craft

824
00:43:39,544 --> 00:43:42,744
Speaker 2: it used to be gardens. But I sort of learned

825
00:43:42,743 --> 00:43:46,703
Speaker 2: this from my mother in law, my husband's mother, who

826
00:43:46,864 --> 00:43:51,024
Speaker 2: was this kind of powerful, brave, kookie woman but also

827
00:43:51,064 --> 00:43:55,584
Speaker 2: a homebody and hated to travel. And so she just

828
00:43:55,663 --> 00:43:59,743
Speaker 2: started this thing of collecting egg cups because you know,

829
00:43:59,783 --> 00:44:01,864
Speaker 2: they were small and you could pocket them when you traveled,

830
00:44:01,904 --> 00:44:04,424
Speaker 2: but it was like almost like a sense of security.

831
00:44:04,424 --> 00:44:08,463
Speaker 2: It gave her like a purpose when she traveled. I'm

832
00:44:08,504 --> 00:44:11,064
Speaker 2: not sure that she, you know, really could learn about

833
00:44:11,183 --> 00:44:13,424
Speaker 2: different places through their egg cups. Maybe you can, I

834
00:44:13,464 --> 00:44:15,783
Speaker 2: think if you study anything deep enough, you know, And

835
00:44:15,824 --> 00:44:18,584
Speaker 2: she ended up with I don't know, ten thousand egg cups.

836
00:44:18,663 --> 00:44:21,783
Speaker 2: It was insane, wow, But it was for her the

837
00:44:21,864 --> 00:44:25,383
Speaker 2: way for her to feel comfortable, because I think travel

838
00:44:25,703 --> 00:44:28,984
Speaker 2: can be scary, particularly about the kind of travel you're

839
00:44:29,024 --> 00:44:32,383
Speaker 2: talking about, not where you're going from fancy hotel to

840
00:44:32,424 --> 00:44:36,184
Speaker 2: fancy hotel in a show for driven car, but where

841
00:44:36,223 --> 00:44:39,104
Speaker 2: you're trying to really connect with people. It's a much

842
00:44:39,104 --> 00:44:41,904
Speaker 2: more intense experience and can be like for me, I

843
00:44:41,944 --> 00:44:45,064
Speaker 2: always dread a trip right before I go, and then

844
00:44:45,143 --> 00:44:48,783
Speaker 2: I'm never happier than when I'm somewhere, and then I

845
00:44:48,864 --> 00:44:52,343
Speaker 2: crash when I come home. But I think it just

846
00:44:52,424 --> 00:44:55,224
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what the thing is. It can be something

847
00:44:55,263 --> 00:44:58,663
Speaker 2: as stupid as egg cups. But I think giving yourself

848
00:44:59,024 --> 00:45:01,423
Speaker 2: at least for certain type of personality, for me, it

849
00:45:01,544 --> 00:45:04,424
Speaker 2: really really is helpful. So then i'm you know, moving

850
00:45:04,464 --> 00:45:06,944
Speaker 2: through a museum. You know, you can't take in a

851
00:45:06,944 --> 00:45:10,984
Speaker 2: whole museum. It's overwhelming. But if you're looking for one

852
00:45:11,183 --> 00:45:14,183
Speaker 2: particular thing or one period that you're interested in.

853
00:45:14,303 --> 00:45:18,304
Speaker 1: I mean it's somewhat The overatching idea of this show

854
00:45:18,504 --> 00:45:23,743
Speaker 1: is that you can travel through a particular lens or Yes,

855
00:45:24,024 --> 00:45:28,183
Speaker 1: I often think about like India through belief, Japan through ritual,

856
00:45:28,703 --> 00:45:35,184
Speaker 1: Italy through food, Spain through fiesta celebration, cultural rights.

857
00:45:35,303 --> 00:45:37,823
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I think and that's you know,

858
00:45:37,904 --> 00:45:40,863
Speaker 2: a framework that makes sense and a framework that makes

859
00:45:40,904 --> 00:45:42,824
Speaker 2: sense to you and that you use for your business.

860
00:45:43,064 --> 00:45:45,663
Speaker 2: And I think also, you know, probably people come to

861
00:45:45,703 --> 00:45:49,544
Speaker 2: you with their particular passions and you build trips around that,

862
00:45:49,984 --> 00:45:52,664
Speaker 2: and I just think, well, it's in such a nice

863
00:45:52,743 --> 00:45:56,584
Speaker 2: way to be someplace where maybe you're a little off

864
00:45:56,623 --> 00:45:59,464
Speaker 2: balance because you're out of your comfort zone.

865
00:45:59,584 --> 00:46:01,984
Speaker 1: Well it's also you think you're going through that lens

866
00:46:02,024 --> 00:46:04,983
Speaker 1: and you are right but it opens out into every

867
00:46:05,064 --> 00:46:07,623
Speaker 1: doors you know, and then you start to it's linked

868
00:46:07,663 --> 00:46:10,104
Speaker 1: to the food, it's linked to the religion, all of

869
00:46:10,143 --> 00:46:12,263
Speaker 1: those things. I think it's like, if you want to

870
00:46:12,303 --> 00:46:15,503
Speaker 1: feel at home in the world, to the point of

871
00:46:16,024 --> 00:46:18,143
Speaker 1: your mother in law, Lois who by the way, if

872
00:46:18,183 --> 00:46:22,903
Speaker 1: you want to read an amazing article about her, She's

873
00:46:22,944 --> 00:46:25,783
Speaker 1: not kidding. This is an extraordinary woman, Lois Weissberg.

874
00:46:25,904 --> 00:46:26,703
Speaker 2: You can look at around.

875
00:46:27,663 --> 00:46:30,744
Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell wrote it for The New Yorker.

876
00:46:30,984 --> 00:46:33,423
Speaker 2: But I mean the idea of that piece was like

877
00:46:33,504 --> 00:46:35,383
Speaker 2: that she was no one famous. It was like, there's

878
00:46:35,384 --> 00:46:37,584
Speaker 2: a little old lady in Chicago that knows someone, that

879
00:46:37,623 --> 00:46:40,544
Speaker 2: knows someone that knows you. It was because her kind

880
00:46:40,584 --> 00:46:45,424
Speaker 2: of mo was connecting people and being this conduit for

881
00:46:45,584 --> 00:46:48,584
Speaker 2: creative people in different fields. And when you travel you

882
00:46:48,623 --> 00:46:51,223
Speaker 2: don't have that power. You're at the mercy, and I

883
00:46:51,263 --> 00:46:53,703
Speaker 2: think that was the thing. It was like, she couldn't

884
00:46:53,984 --> 00:46:57,823
Speaker 2: be herself in a foreign place without like having junk

885
00:46:57,864 --> 00:46:58,943
Speaker 2: shops to trol through.

886
00:46:59,143 --> 00:47:02,104
Speaker 1: Right, Well, this has been fun. It's always fun with you.

887
00:47:02,544 --> 00:47:04,984
Speaker 1: I love having a laugh, but I also love sharing

888
00:47:05,104 --> 00:47:11,623
Speaker 1: our yeah, passion for the daily beauty of how people

889
00:47:11,703 --> 00:47:17,664
Speaker 1: transform things. That is just magical. Yeah, it is completely magical.

890
00:47:17,864 --> 00:47:20,183
Speaker 1: Just how does this happen over time that.

891
00:47:20,183 --> 00:47:23,303
Speaker 2: You get to you know, through travel, you get to

892
00:47:23,384 --> 00:47:26,464
Speaker 2: see things you wouldn't see. And I just remember like

893
00:47:26,824 --> 00:47:29,984
Speaker 2: Diego della Valet, when I was in my fashion life,

894
00:47:30,303 --> 00:47:33,664
Speaker 2: always talked about you know, he would do that oh sorry,

895
00:47:33,663 --> 00:47:37,343
Speaker 2: he ran Todds Oh okay, and he's sort of like

896
00:47:37,384 --> 00:47:40,944
Speaker 2: a sort of Italian businessman mogul, but he would always

897
00:47:41,064 --> 00:47:44,224
Speaker 2: talk about, you know, the aroma and like his little

898
00:47:44,223 --> 00:47:48,263
Speaker 2: fingers of I'm sure you know there's probably some thing

899
00:47:48,303 --> 00:47:51,743
Speaker 2: that that means an Italian gesture. But it's this idea

900
00:47:51,984 --> 00:47:54,863
Speaker 2: of getting the aroma of a place. And it's not

901
00:47:55,064 --> 00:47:58,743
Speaker 2: necessarily like the fragrance. It's the atmosphere and a lot

902
00:47:58,824 --> 00:48:03,104
Speaker 2: of that comes from everyday life and not from necessarily

903
00:48:03,183 --> 00:48:03,784
Speaker 2: high culture.

904
00:48:04,303 --> 00:48:06,544
Speaker 1: Well, I mean just on the essence or the smell

905
00:48:06,623 --> 00:48:08,343
Speaker 1: of We once did a story which is one of

906
00:48:08,424 --> 00:48:10,943
Speaker 1: still one of my favorite stories that we ever did,

907
00:48:11,143 --> 00:48:16,504
Speaker 1: called the Essence of Earth that how bad smells like,

908
00:48:16,663 --> 00:48:20,104
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and transport you in not an entirely bad way.

909
00:48:20,424 --> 00:48:23,544
Speaker 2: Well, all good fragrances that are made of that you know,

910
00:48:23,663 --> 00:48:24,663
Speaker 2: of of bad?

911
00:48:24,824 --> 00:48:26,904
Speaker 1: Oh really oh yeah, I think.

912
00:48:26,783 --> 00:48:30,504
Speaker 2: It was like feces extractions. No, seriously, every really like

913
00:48:30,544 --> 00:48:35,584
Speaker 2: beautiful perfume has a kind of nasty something because you know,

914
00:48:35,623 --> 00:48:38,343
Speaker 2: it's like underarm smell. Anyway, this is going.

915
00:48:39,464 --> 00:48:41,703
Speaker 1: But is there a place that comes to mind with

916
00:48:41,743 --> 00:48:45,064
Speaker 1: you that has a bad smell that's like evocative to you.

917
00:48:44,544 --> 00:48:47,943
Speaker 2: New DELI like that, you know, the smell of kind

918
00:48:47,984 --> 00:48:50,024
Speaker 2: of pollution and burning. But I sort of love it

919
00:48:50,064 --> 00:48:52,584
Speaker 2: the way I love like, you know, gasoline smell in

920
00:48:52,623 --> 00:48:54,383
Speaker 2: a closed garage.

921
00:48:54,024 --> 00:48:56,944
Speaker 1: Right, I mean I always think of like, you know,

922
00:48:57,223 --> 00:49:00,463
Speaker 1: stale beer on carpet, you know, yeah, sort of that

923
00:49:01,223 --> 00:49:04,984
Speaker 1: English pub irish thing thankfully now or most of the

924
00:49:05,024 --> 00:49:09,223
Speaker 1: Australian pubs or they always have been like tiles and

925
00:49:09,303 --> 00:49:11,423
Speaker 1: actually if you're going to have like a big piss night,

926
00:49:11,464 --> 00:49:14,944
Speaker 1: it's called a night out on the tiles. Oh really exactly.

927
00:49:14,984 --> 00:49:15,544
Speaker 1: I've had a few.

928
00:49:15,864 --> 00:49:19,864
Speaker 2: No wet wet school bus was really bad, like loads

929
00:49:19,864 --> 00:49:23,984
Speaker 2: of children on a rainy day, all like humid and stinky.

930
00:49:24,544 --> 00:49:28,663
Speaker 1: But then you know, on the flip side, rain everything

931
00:49:28,984 --> 00:49:30,743
Speaker 1: kind of sometimes is the most Like.

932
00:49:30,984 --> 00:49:34,064
Speaker 2: Yeah, just like driving through Morocco just now, there was

933
00:49:34,143 --> 00:49:37,464
Speaker 2: incredible fog and then it rained one night and it

934
00:49:37,584 --> 00:49:39,984
Speaker 2: was so clear and it was like the citrus were

935
00:49:39,984 --> 00:49:43,383
Speaker 2: blooming at this time, and it just the smell was

936
00:49:43,424 --> 00:49:46,544
Speaker 2: divine and we like were clamoring up through wild time

937
00:49:46,663 --> 00:49:47,824
Speaker 2: that smelt so good.

938
00:49:47,944 --> 00:49:51,384
Speaker 1: Or that kind of moment between like magnolia grande flora

939
00:49:51,464 --> 00:49:54,223
Speaker 1: when the rain comes before it turns brown. Yeah, that

940
00:49:54,384 --> 00:49:58,263
Speaker 1: next morning it's like the most incredible. Yeah. I can

941
00:49:58,303 --> 00:50:00,544
Speaker 1: think about that for a few different places than one

942
00:50:00,544 --> 00:50:03,903
Speaker 1: of them seen anyway. So yeah, we have to stop talking,

943
00:50:04,944 --> 00:50:07,703
Speaker 1: but we can keep talking. No, no, we have to

944
00:50:07,703 --> 00:50:13,824
Speaker 1: stop talking. Now. I'm going to torch you with questions

945
00:50:13,864 --> 00:50:16,344
Speaker 1: that you have to answer answer quickly, speaking and talking

946
00:50:16,384 --> 00:50:20,064
Speaker 1: too much. Yeah. So favorite hotel.

947
00:50:21,183 --> 00:50:25,184
Speaker 2: Hotel Locarno, maybe in Rome, just a small, not super

948
00:50:25,183 --> 00:50:30,104
Speaker 2: fancy hotel. The rooms are beautiful, I like, very sexy,

949
00:50:30,344 --> 00:50:35,783
Speaker 2: very kind of nineteenth century romantic, all decorated differently right

950
00:50:35,824 --> 00:50:39,104
Speaker 2: in yeah, right, and off of it with a beautiful

951
00:50:39,104 --> 00:50:42,024
Speaker 2: little garden, like not a fancy hotel, but just to

952
00:50:42,143 --> 00:50:43,183
Speaker 2: me perfect.

953
00:50:42,904 --> 00:50:45,423
Speaker 1: And a huge whysteria over now, unbelie.

954
00:50:46,223 --> 00:50:48,584
Speaker 2: And I like a hotel that has like a proprietor

955
00:50:49,303 --> 00:50:49,903
Speaker 2: you know, the.

956
00:50:49,864 --> 00:50:52,544
Speaker 1: Owner is present. Yeah, is there a meal a taste

957
00:50:52,623 --> 00:50:56,183
Speaker 1: that you could desperate to relive. You know.

958
00:50:56,223 --> 00:50:58,743
Speaker 2: I'm not a foodie like you, but I was. I

959
00:50:58,904 --> 00:51:02,624
Speaker 2: was in Lisbon for twenty four hours last week and

960
00:51:03,064 --> 00:51:06,383
Speaker 2: someone just directed me to a Savich place that was

961
00:51:06,544 --> 00:51:08,703
Speaker 2: so incredible. I don't even remember the name of it.

962
00:51:08,783 --> 00:51:13,544
Speaker 2: But I think most memorable meal are not in super

963
00:51:13,584 --> 00:51:15,584
Speaker 2: fancy places, at least for me.

964
00:51:15,663 --> 00:51:18,344
Speaker 1: I like simple food, a place that you would always

965
00:51:18,424 --> 00:51:24,584
Speaker 1: return home, a place that you'd never return I think Varanasi.

966
00:51:24,703 --> 00:51:28,703
Speaker 2: Although I didn't hate it, it was just, you know,

967
00:51:28,824 --> 00:51:32,104
Speaker 2: I felt like, so you know, var Nazi is where

968
00:51:32,303 --> 00:51:35,584
Speaker 2: people bring their dead loved ones to be burnt on

969
00:51:35,623 --> 00:51:39,104
Speaker 2: a funeral pyre. It's on the Ganges. There's all these

970
00:51:39,143 --> 00:51:44,904
Speaker 2: spiritual seekers there and it's a magnificent place, but it

971
00:51:44,984 --> 00:51:49,104
Speaker 2: is so foreign and it felt so apocalyptic, like I

972
00:51:49,344 --> 00:51:51,623
Speaker 2: don't think I would bring myself to go there, and

973
00:51:51,663 --> 00:51:55,104
Speaker 2: it was hard to fully process it. But it was

974
00:51:55,143 --> 00:51:58,464
Speaker 2: magical and spiritual and just like the fog, the boats

975
00:51:58,663 --> 00:52:02,704
Speaker 2: bringing tons of wood for these funeral pyres and people

976
00:52:02,743 --> 00:52:05,984
Speaker 2: are burning and it doesn't smell bad. It's so polluted,

977
00:52:06,024 --> 00:52:08,183
Speaker 2: and yet people are like doing their laundry in it

978
00:52:08,263 --> 00:52:10,783
Speaker 2: and it comes out sparkling white like the whole thing

979
00:52:10,824 --> 00:52:15,263
Speaker 2: is mystery, and it just feels like the beginning of

980
00:52:15,344 --> 00:52:17,663
Speaker 2: humanity and the end of humanity, and it's just like

981
00:52:17,743 --> 00:52:19,143
Speaker 2: a lot like again, just.

982
00:52:19,104 --> 00:52:21,743
Speaker 1: A picture of humanity full stop. Yeah. The first time

983
00:52:21,783 --> 00:52:23,623
Speaker 1: I went there, at the end of the day, I

984
00:52:23,663 --> 00:52:26,343
Speaker 1: looked down at my feet and I was wearing two

985
00:52:26,424 --> 00:52:31,863
Speaker 1: different shoes of entirely different genres because you were so spiritual.

986
00:52:32,143 --> 00:52:35,104
Speaker 1: Yeah that's no, No, I'm so no. But because it is,

987
00:52:35,584 --> 00:52:36,864
Speaker 1: it's overwhelming.

988
00:52:37,143 --> 00:52:39,183
Speaker 2: Yeah, on the planet, I mean all over Indy you

989
00:52:39,183 --> 00:52:41,944
Speaker 2: see cows walking around, but it's like there the alleys

990
00:52:41,984 --> 00:52:44,943
Speaker 2: are so tiny, so you like, you know, they're one way,

991
00:52:44,984 --> 00:52:46,823
Speaker 2: and you come up with a cow and you're like

992
00:52:47,464 --> 00:52:49,784
Speaker 2: doing that thing. Are you going right or you're going left?

993
00:52:50,223 --> 00:52:51,623
Speaker 1: Favorite shop or market?

994
00:52:52,143 --> 00:52:55,824
Speaker 2: This might be a bit cliche, but the Paris Flea Market,

995
00:52:56,064 --> 00:53:00,263
Speaker 2: the Paulbert Section just the best things for the home.

996
00:53:01,623 --> 00:53:02,704
Speaker 1: What's your favorite museum.

997
00:53:03,024 --> 00:53:05,823
Speaker 2: I'm going to go low, not high. I like a

998
00:53:06,143 --> 00:53:11,024
Speaker 2: super personal, weird museum. So like Mario praz which is

999
00:53:11,143 --> 00:53:15,864
Speaker 2: his collection in Rome. There's an amazing museum of wax

1000
00:53:15,944 --> 00:53:19,664
Speaker 2: fruit in Turin that's connected to an amazing museum of

1001
00:53:20,183 --> 00:53:24,504
Speaker 2: things that institutionalized insane people make there's unbelievable weavings. Also

1002
00:53:24,623 --> 00:53:28,863
Speaker 2: this museum in Istanbul called the Museum of Innocence, that

1003
00:53:29,303 --> 00:53:32,423
Speaker 2: is completely the passion project of the writer or Han

1004
00:53:32,504 --> 00:53:36,943
Speaker 2: Pamuk And it's a novel. There's a novel and then

1005
00:53:37,024 --> 00:53:41,584
Speaker 2: this collection that he's amassed of ordinary things that relate

1006
00:53:41,663 --> 00:53:42,304
Speaker 2: to the novel.

1007
00:53:42,703 --> 00:53:44,584
Speaker 1: Where have you felt most out of place?

1008
00:53:45,384 --> 00:53:49,104
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever felt completely out of place anywhere,

1009
00:53:49,143 --> 00:53:52,384
Speaker 2: but I think in Japan it felt the most foreign

1010
00:53:52,424 --> 00:53:54,143
Speaker 2: to me. I mean, you can think like India is

1011
00:53:54,183 --> 00:53:57,303
Speaker 2: such a different culture, but it's chaotic. I understand it

1012
00:53:57,344 --> 00:53:59,264
Speaker 2: as in New York. Not that I understand it completely,

1013
00:53:59,303 --> 00:54:02,784
Speaker 2: but I feel comfortable there. In Japan, people were incredibly

1014
00:54:02,864 --> 00:54:06,183
Speaker 2: welcoming and kind, but I felt I was in the

1015
00:54:06,223 --> 00:54:10,904
Speaker 2: presence of a culture so different that it was hard

1016
00:54:11,263 --> 00:54:13,024
Speaker 2: to like be myself.

1017
00:54:13,223 --> 00:54:14,784
Speaker 1: Wherever you felt most at home.

1018
00:54:15,183 --> 00:54:16,463
Speaker 2: Oh right here with you now?

1019
00:54:17,303 --> 00:54:17,703
Speaker 1: Italy?

1020
00:54:17,864 --> 00:54:20,544
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like Italy's my comfort zone. My

1021
00:54:21,024 --> 00:54:24,584
Speaker 2: you know, it feels easy, the food's great, the people

1022
00:54:24,584 --> 00:54:29,263
Speaker 2: are nutty, and you know they seek beauty as just

1023
00:54:29,303 --> 00:54:31,544
Speaker 2: a matter of ordinary life or just a matter of

1024
00:54:31,544 --> 00:54:32,863
Speaker 2: course and deliciousness.

1025
00:54:32,864 --> 00:54:35,863
Speaker 1: Beauty and deliciousness is yeah, it's like, yeah, Italians would.

1026
00:54:36,024 --> 00:54:41,304
Speaker 2: And ridiculousness, yes, over dramatic, it's.

1027
00:54:41,223 --> 00:54:43,424
Speaker 1: Just so fun. But it's like Italians if it was

1028
00:54:43,464 --> 00:54:46,464
Speaker 1: if you're like the lights were being cut off and

1029
00:54:46,584 --> 00:54:49,143
Speaker 1: hadn't paid the electricity bill on the Monday, they'd still

1030
00:54:49,143 --> 00:54:50,104
Speaker 1: get the pastigenion.

1031
00:54:50,263 --> 00:54:54,184
Speaker 2: Yes, totally, like nothing's going to stop them from having

1032
00:54:54,303 --> 00:54:57,423
Speaker 2: great food or like doing something beautiful looking good.

1033
00:54:57,544 --> 00:55:02,224
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So I like to ask people, and remember

1034
00:55:02,303 --> 00:55:07,864
Speaker 1: this is like geography, real life, real obligations aside, what

1035
00:55:07,904 --> 00:55:09,783
Speaker 1: would you most likely to spend a weekend, a week,

1036
00:55:09,944 --> 00:55:11,423
Speaker 1: a month, a year.

1037
00:55:12,183 --> 00:55:18,984
Speaker 2: Okay, a weekend Tuscany, Umbria? Maybe our friend Camilla Guinness's

1038
00:55:18,984 --> 00:55:21,863
Speaker 2: house which can be rented, Villa Arniano, really.

1039
00:55:21,663 --> 00:55:24,423
Speaker 1: Just such a beautiful house, beautiful location, and we went

1040
00:55:24,464 --> 00:55:25,223
Speaker 1: on a vacation there.

1041
00:55:25,303 --> 00:55:29,504
Speaker 2: Yes, okay a week Hedra, I'd like to go back to.

1042
00:55:30,864 --> 00:55:34,304
Speaker 2: I guess I like a place with no cars, quiet, beauty,

1043
00:55:34,783 --> 00:55:40,424
Speaker 2: unbelievable landscape, just wandering around again, great food a month

1044
00:55:41,424 --> 00:55:45,383
Speaker 2: Naples or Mexico City. So you know, I have been

1045
00:55:45,384 --> 00:55:47,143
Speaker 2: doing this thing of the like where do we want

1046
00:55:47,143 --> 00:55:49,703
Speaker 2: to go for a month? And both of those places

1047
00:55:49,743 --> 00:55:53,904
Speaker 2: I think are so rich and layered that to be

1048
00:55:53,944 --> 00:55:55,024
Speaker 2: able to spend a month.

1049
00:55:54,824 --> 00:55:57,104
Speaker 1: There would be incredible, and a year.

1050
00:55:58,504 --> 00:56:02,943
Speaker 2: Probably venice. I mean, I feel like I uncovered some

1051
00:56:03,263 --> 00:56:05,463
Speaker 2: and there's still so much more I want.

1052
00:56:05,864 --> 00:56:09,064
Speaker 1: It's calling you for sure. Yeah, as well. I like

1053
00:56:09,104 --> 00:56:12,383
Speaker 1: to ask everyone what are you traveling through right now?

1054
00:56:13,064 --> 00:56:14,144
Speaker 2: Is that an emotional question?

1055
00:56:14,223 --> 00:56:18,064
Speaker 1: Yes, emotional, It's a life question kind of age.

1056
00:56:18,344 --> 00:56:22,104
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the idea of you know, I

1057
00:56:22,183 --> 00:56:25,183
Speaker 2: think a lot of the decisions I've made about my

1058
00:56:25,263 --> 00:56:29,783
Speaker 2: life recently are about, you know, getting older, not wanting

1059
00:56:29,824 --> 00:56:34,384
Speaker 2: to have regrets. And so I'm traveling through this idea

1060
00:56:34,384 --> 00:56:38,064
Speaker 2: of time, of limited time and how I want to

1061
00:56:38,464 --> 00:56:42,303
Speaker 2: spend it, and a lot of that is by traveling too.

1062
00:56:42,663 --> 00:56:45,303
Speaker 2: I'm traveling through traveling too.

1063
00:56:45,824 --> 00:56:48,984
Speaker 1: I well, I hope you spend some traveling time with me.

1064
00:56:49,263 --> 00:56:53,143
Speaker 1: One of my favorite travel buddies. Thanks Sarah, I love you,

1065
00:56:53,584 --> 00:56:54,104
Speaker 1: I love you.

1066
00:56:54,143 --> 00:57:06,303
Speaker 2: Bye.