WEBVTT - Is Your Personality Right For Your Job? 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:03.040 Before we start the show, we have an announcement. After 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.440 a year and a half of game Plan, we're going 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:08.680 to be putting this show on hold. We're sad about 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:10.440 not getting to talk to you guys every week, but 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:13.040 if you have a half big take that you've been 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:18.079 sitting on, now's the time to call it in. I'm 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:21.239 an E n t J. Let me decipher that for you. 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.560 It's a personality type. The E stands for extroverted. Even 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.960 if these letters mean absolutely nothing to you, they might 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.200 mean a lot to a company trying to hire you. 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:47.000 This is game Plan. Hi, I'm Rebecca Greenfield an E 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:50.199 n t J. And I'm Francesca Levi E n f P. 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.920 And this week we're talking about personality types and why 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.760 they matter to your employer at all. The E N 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:03.720 t J spell it out, Um, you should probably explain 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:07.240 what it is. Yeah, So that is the Myers Briggs 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.920 personality types. It's a personality test that I'm kind of 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.160 obsessed with. I don't know about you, where they give 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.520 you four letters and there are sixteen different combinations. You're 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.480 either an E or an I, so an extrovert or 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:26.040 an introvert And then big surprise, we're both extroverts, both extroverts, 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.160 and then you can be an END or an S 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:35.000 and then E N. Yeah, it's just thinking, feeling, and 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.479 then a PJ, which is perceiving, judging, and then your 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.640 combination determines who you are as a person. Right, I'm 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:44.000 not going to do the math right now, but a 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:48.160 bunch of different possible combinations. You're so good at math, 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.360 and it's supposed to tell you something about I don't know, 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.800 like how you approach problem solving or just move through life. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.480 And people get into Myers Briggs like you see it 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.240 on people's Twitter bios, and you know, people describe people 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:06.000 describe themselves that way, Like there's something about those binary 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.440 choices in four different categories that people relate to when 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.120 it comes to trying to understand like who they are. 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.240 But this is more than just a fun thing that 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.320 I talked about with my friends all the time. It 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:20.200 turns out that lots of employers use them to determine 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.240 who they should hire. So they have you take a 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.520 Myers Briggs personality test and then decide if you're the 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.000 right fit for the job. Like I just saw some 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:35.120 article on CNBC about the Myers Briggs, that's the most hirable. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.919 I think it's the E. S. T J, which neither 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:43.480 you nor I had. So Yeah, So companies use not 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:47.240 just Myers Briggs, but other personality tests that staffing firms 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.000 have provided or that they've created in the house. And 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.400 there was a wave of companies starting to do this 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:54.840 a few years ago where it was felt that there 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:56.800 were things that you could tell about somebody that you 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.799 can't really get at through a job interview, and to 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:01.839 really understand where they're going to be good at a job, 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:03.919 you have to kind of go under the surface. And 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.760 I think that's how these personality tests as part of 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:10.680 the job application process kind of rosen prominence. Yeah. A 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.880 friend of mine told me that his company made him 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.000 take one that's put on by Gallup called strength Finder, 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:19.679 And you take another one of these tests. It's a 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:24.119 hundred seventy questions and it tells you your top five strengths. 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.000 And according to Gallup, they say it's valuable because when 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.079 employees are doing things that played to their strengths, they 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:35.000 claim that they're more productive, happier, more engaged. So you 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.840 should take your strength Finder test and then you can 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:39.880 figure out what you're best out and do that at work. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:42.880 Of course, the flip side is that if you don't 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:45.760 have the strengths that they've decided you're looking for, they 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.680 can just not hire you. Yeah, they're definitely a lot 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.880 of downsides to these personality tests, mainly that a lot 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:57.640 of them are not exactly based on any science or psychology. 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.160 There have been so many articles about how my Ris 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.640 Brigg says completely based on no psychology or science and 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.240 probably made up. There have also been criticisms that they're 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:11.880 kind of discriminatory. That basically, whenever you're evaluating somebody on 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.640 your personality or looking for a good personality fit, you're 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.520 looking for somebody who just slots easily into the corporate 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.720 culture that you already have set up or that you 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:27.120 most desire. As the employer. The personality type is basically 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:31.719 a proxy for being like the people who already work there. Okay, 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.679 but I do think your personality matters in the job 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:37.440 that you do. I feel like I hear a lot 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.600 about this from introverts and extroverts, like there are certain 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:43.280 jobs that are just better for introverts and certain jobs 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.640 that are better for extrots. And that seems to make 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.159 sense to me. Yeah, you often hear I mean, you 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:52.400 and I are in communications oriented roles, so being an 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.400 extrovert is helpful. We have to talk to a lot 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:56.599 of people all the time in our jobs. Um, but 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.760 I've heard about coders being introverts and needing in quiet 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:06.080 spaces and like even low ceilings and confined rooms to 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:10.520 feel most comfortable. So there's definitely different types of jobs 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.800 that draw different types of personalities. Um, the question is 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:18.560 how you identify those people and whether you're doing it right. Yeah, 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.720 I mean a test is not exactly the right way 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.640 to be measuring the type of people who should be 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:27.960 working at the type of places, right, But if you 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:30.839 know maybe more about yourself and who you are, then 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.560 you can kind of figure out how that matches up 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.520 with your skills and what job you might be best 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:38.120 to go into. I think you get into trouble when 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.400 it's employers making the decision about what your personality is. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:45.800 There's probably some upside to knowing a little bit about 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.240 who you are, what you like and don't like, and 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:50.800 what characteristics you have, and like what would be the 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.560 ideal office for you based on that, And that's what 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.520 our guests is going to talk to us about today. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.919 Alissa Doll is the author of cringe Worthy, a Theory 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.560 of Awkwardness. Her book is about figuring out what's behind 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:08.920 those awkward moments you feel and how you can use 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:17.280 them to your advantage. So, Melissa, what would you say 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:22.000 your personality type is so the small distinction that like, 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.840 I'm obsessed with I'm kind of interested in understanding awkwardness 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.200 more as a feeling than a personality trait, if that 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.039 makes sense. It's something that like I think it can 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:35.360 be both things, certainly, but sometimes I think that people 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.440 who you know are quote awkward kind of like the 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.520 Michael Scott's or like Larry David's of the world, maybe 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:45.280 don't always feel it themselves. So so that is one 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:47.359 way to kind of like maybe bring it back to 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.000 personality that there are people who are more likely to 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.760 feel this way, and I certainly am like kind of 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.120 the whole book was just like this query of like, 0:06:56.240 --> 0:07:00.040 why does this feeling drive me insane? And way longer go. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:01.880 When I started working on it was like me trying 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.240 to like just construct these barriers between myself and this 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.120 feeling that because it drives me insane. But it kind 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:11.239 of became like, Okay, maybe this is something useful. Maybe 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.440 sometimes it sounds like you're saying you can have a 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:19.240 feeling that doesn't necessarily translate to how other people perceive you, 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.560 or you can be a person who makes other people 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.400 feel uncomfortable all the time and not even notice it. 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:26.520 What is that feeling? Can you say a little more 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.440 about it? Yeah? So, in psychological literature, they are these 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.040 things called self conscious emotions, and it's kind of like 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:33.920 shame and embarrassment, and that's kind of how I am 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.760 understanding awkwardness. So it's kind of like the self conscious 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.320 aspect of those things. But there's also this under a 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.640 layer of uncertainty of just like what am I supposed 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:44.840 to say or do now? You know? Um? And kind 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.440 of like the distinction if this helps between that helps 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.080 make it clear in my mind. Is a scene from 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.840 the Office from the American Office. It is the episode 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.400 where Michael like burns his foot on a George form 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.280 and yes, a good one to know that one well. 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:00.960 And so he thinks that pill in the office aren't 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:05.040 like being adequately understanding of his impairments, and so he 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:08.200 kind of calls this like this meeting about like let's 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.760 talk about like impairments and disability and like how we 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:13.320 just like shouldn't you know, stigmatize people who struggle with 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:17.160 these things and Um, and he brings in Um, the 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.320 building manager who uses a wheelchair, and he kind of 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.920 like starts saying like, this is just I've used a 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:24.800 wheelchair since I was a little kid, Like, it's not 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.960 even necessarily something I noticed at this point, and Michael 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.400 breaks in and he says like, well, if you noticed it, 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.160 didn't you, but it was the first thing you noticed 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:33.600 when he walked in here. And so to me, that 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.480 kind of makes the distinction between like, Michael is incredibly 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.760 awkward and that was an incredibly awkward thing to say, 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:40.800 but I don't think he feels it, you know, but 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:42.920 everyone else in the room is like, oh my god, Like, 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.120 what what do we say now? I'm so uncomfortable. Yeah, 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:50.079 it's like he's an awkward person, yes, but we all 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.800 feel awkward, yes, And I think that there are people 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.480 who are more bothered by that feeling, and you're one 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.280 of those people. I think. So I'm wondering when was 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.840 when did you realize that this was something that really 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.400 got to you, this awkward feeling, or that you even 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.160 had it, So, I mean, if I can kind of 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:14.480 like armchair psychologist myself, I think like when we're teenagers, 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.000 everybody feels this to it a really extreme degree, like um, 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:19.959 and we know that and there's there's researched on that 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.600 as well, that teenagers are really like sensitive to moments 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:24.520 that kind of like deviate from the norm. How does 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:28.320 like the work environment or just the working world in 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:32.960 general exacerbate these these feelings or does it? I think 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.320 definitely so, because work is like this atmosphere, and it's 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.520 a coincidence that like there are two like giant hit 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.319 shows about awkwardus in the office, right like and the 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:48.560 Office of the office and the office, and like there's 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:50.720 like international versions to this is like a very you know, 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.839 like a international thing. I think it's that there are 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.440 spoken rules, but then there are so many like unspoken 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.120 rules about you know, you definitely like have to be 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:01.920 here at a certain time and you have to get 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.200 this in at a certain time, but then there are 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.479 all these like unwritten rules about like what is appropriate 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.200 and like what should be communicated and what shouldn't be 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.640 So it's kind of like navigating that like the gray areas. 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:15.920 I suppose is where this can come up for me 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.959 certainly so, and you also mentioned it's a lot about 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.160 a self consciousness, and we're so often in situations that 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.600 work with people were definitely not comfortable with and wouldn't 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.720 necessarily be around. I wonder if that has something to 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.199 do with it. Oh, definitely, Yeah, that's that's actually a 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.880 really interesting point. Yeah, So it's kind of like figuring 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.439 out how to relate to other people or like how 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:41.600 they're kind of seeing you. Um. But for for me, 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:43.920 kind of one of the aspects of self consciousness at 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.400 work is um. Some something I reade about in the 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.280 book is like part of awkwardness is like when the 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.680 version of yourself that like you kind of keep this 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:54.800 little version of yourself in your mind. And I think 0:10:54.800 --> 0:11:00.480 sometimes awkwardness can be the result of seeing that maybe 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.079 you don't look that way to other people. So sometimes 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.400 this can be extremely dark in the workplace, Like if 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.520 you just kind of google like awkward workplace situations, when 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.679 that comes up a lot is like salary negotiations or something, 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.800 you know, Yeah, and that's like literally you have to say, 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.200 like I think I am worth this much, I think 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.160 that I have X experience to get this job, and 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.040 and it's kind of I think it's awkward because you're 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:27.920 putting yourself out there to have people say to you like, well, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:31.240 actually I think you're worth this much. So yeah, and 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.960 it takes you right out of your comfort zone of 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.280 like what is a normal interaction that's such a rare 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.360 conversation that you have a salary negotiation that there aren't 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.760 you don't automatically know the rules for it. Again, it's 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.640 it's something where they're there are sort of rules, but 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.280 there aren't really. I mean like sometimes it's even like 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.520 in a job interview. Sometimes it's brought up right away. 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:57.200 Sometimes you have to ask about it. It's uh, yeah, 0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.000 there's a lot of there's a lot of grayness there. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.240 So we talked about the awkward job negotiations and salaries, 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.480 But do you have any specific examples of awkward moments 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.160 that you've experienced at the office or seen your coworkers 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.880 experience that you want to share. They're like big ways 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:12.760 in small ways, this can come up, you know, Like 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.080 just recently, we kind of had like a bit of 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:19.520 a restructure at work, and I didn't like literally didn't 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.120 know who my boss was for a minute. Which was 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:28.760 weird and uncomfortable to admit. Um, But by that point 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:30.360 I was finishing up the book, so I knew not 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.920 to be afraid of the awkwardness, and I just had 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:35.120 to kind of have the conversation and say I'm sorry. 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.360 Who was my supervisor at this point or this was 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.000 a long time ago, but I got a promotion and 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.520 nobody knew about it, like my boss didn't tell anybody 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.120 about it. So I had to just bring up, like, hey, 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.240 this is making things weird for me. It was extremely 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.360 award to tell people like I'm more senior than you 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.520 now yeah. Yeah, So I had to be the one 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.480 who kept having to be like, well, I actually remember 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:02.680 this specifically, like, um, I was talking with somebody in 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:04.640 like a different department who hadn't heard it about any 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.640 of this, and they kept saying like, oh, should we 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.040 run this by X person? And I just kept having 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.000 to say like like no, no, we don't need to, 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.400 like no, I'm I can give you okay on this 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:18.360 or yeah. So that was that was That was awkward. Um. 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:22.560 So you have some techniques or ideas in your book 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.720 of how to kind of overcome some of these awkward situations. 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.000 Do you want to kind of give us a taste 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.320 of those. Okay, Well, to me, like the big the 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.040 biggest kind of thing to kind of get your head 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.120 around is like, can you maybe start to see these 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:39.400 moments as as funny rather than rather than horrible, rather 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.360 than scary? You know. I mean it's it's not always possible, 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:46.600 but that can kind of help these things be less scary. Um, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:48.920 And you know, the uncertainty aspect of it's just like 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:53.280 human nature to be to be kind of apprehensive about 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.280 uncertain situations. Um, but just to kind of learn how 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:02.040 to like withstand that is comfort of uncertainty. Um. This 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.440 is in the book, but this of a friend who 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:09.520 told me about um, their boss who this was like 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.000 a notorious story around their office. I guess where people 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.800 would like come in and um like ask for a 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:16.800 raise or ask for a promotion, and the boss would 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.840 just like like sit there and just like let like 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.920 awkward moments of silence, just like tick By. And the 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.760 story I guess was that people just would end up 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:27.920 being like never mind, like you know what, I'll take 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.720 a pay cut, I'll take into motion, you know. So 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:32.480 so if you can kind of like figure out how 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:37.800 to just be comfortable in awkward silences and awkward moments 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.440 and just realize it's it's uncomfortable, but it's not going 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.000 to kill you. Sort of feels high risk, but maybe 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.720 the reward is higher. So, um, you know, just for 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.320 an uncomfortable situation where that I mentioned before that you know, 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.880 I had gotten this like weird secret promotion, Like I 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:55.960 just kind of that was really weird for a while, 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.280 and I was really afraid of talking to my boss 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:00.920 and being like, I'm can you can you like send 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:02.920 a note about this? Can you tell people about this? 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.040 But I finally did it and then he was like, oh, yeah, 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.040 of course, no, I see, I see how that would help. 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.880 And so then, um, you know that did help. People 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:14.680 are so clueless and really well if you didn't think 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.520 to do that, yeah, exactly exactly. It's kind of just like, 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:19.520 I don't know, kind of a motto for me has 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.360 sort of been like you have to either face the 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:27.640 awkwardness or just like accept the situation, like and and 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.960 maybe maybe sometimes you can with withstand the situation, but 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.640 I think it's usually worth trying to just say something 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.640 and have the awkward conversation. You also argue that maybe 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.000 we shouldn't try to get over awkwardness and that it's good. 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.240 How can that be possible? What I mean more by 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.680 that is that if you are a person who is 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:52.280 like sensitive to these moments, that's not necessarily a bad thing. 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.960 Like that means that you're picking up on discomfort and 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.520 you're picking up on these on these moments where there 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.200 is some kind of like gray areas, and that's not 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.640 a bad thing. It's good to be like aware of that. 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:05.360 I would much rather be the kind of person who's 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:07.440 aware of that than the kind of person who just 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:11.200 like causes discomfort and Michael Scott and Michael Scott, Yeah, 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.000 I don't. I would rather be the kind of person 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.800 who is aware of these moments and you know, you 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.320 could learn to use them, like my friend's boss, who 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.280 like you know, is able to just like have some 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.400 uncomfortable moments take by It sounds like also you have, 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.320 as you described earlier, sometimes you have these feelings that 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:33.400 aren't necessarily perceived by others. So maybe just knowing how 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.160 how common it is allows you to let yourself off 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.080 the hook a little bit for those those moments. Yeah, definitely, 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.200 I mean this is this is something in the book 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.480 actually ah, it's called the spotlight effect. This is something 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:47.880 in this psychological literature, and it's kind of this idea 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:52.920 that like your flaws are much more, they stand out 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:54.760 more in your mind just because you're paying more attention 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:56.840 to yourself, you know. But like there was a there 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:58.800 was a question actually, um, kind of in your guys 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.800 email to me that was like, you know, or maybe 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.720 maybe we talked about this, maybe someone said this during 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.440 our conversation, but like, you know, a time when someone 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.280 else caused an awkward moment. I've been like trying to 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.960 think about that all morning, Like I'm sure, of course 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.000 that's happened, but like, why can't I think of anything? 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.000 You know. It's just like your own moments stand out 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:17.879 more in your mind just because you're paying more attention 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.560 to yourself. And it's not to say that other people 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.400 aren't noticing, because they certainly do. But but maybe they 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.600 notice and then they immediately forget about it, or like 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.399 they noticed there just who cares? You know, I that 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.320 was weird, but like, you know, like I said something 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.399 weird two hours ago. So that's a lesson. We've definitely 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.560 talked about here on game Plan that people don't really 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:42.199 care about you know, what's really thinking about you as 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:43.840 much as you're thinking, oh my god, it's such a 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.880 like freeing thing when you realize that actually just like yeah, 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.120 no one, no one really cares that much. Like it's 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:54.000 it's great. Are there ways though, that you do think 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.160 we can use our awkwardness to our advantage at work? 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.800 One thing, like maybe like if you say something, um, 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.239 and it was taken in the wrong way and so 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.680 you kind of caused an awkward moment um, you could 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.440 kind of think of that as an opportunity to grow 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:13.080 a little bit or to learn a little bit, you know, 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.200 if someone didn't perceive you in the way that you 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.520 think you're coming off, like, oh, I didn't mean it 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:19.880 that way, but that's that's how they saw that. And 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:21.960 maybe I should take that in and consider that and 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.359 consider how I can say things better or I can 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:29.960 do things better so people are understanding me. Um. But 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:31.600 I don't know, I really think just like part of 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.440 it is just like keeping a sense of humor about 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.520 it too, Just like if if you if you are 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:39.439 attuned to these moments, just like just letting yourself off 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.080 the hook a little bit for him, if you see 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.000 other people if if you're more attuned to this in yourself, 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:45.920 you probably notice it more in others too, and kind 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.520 of just like helping them out of situations. Um. So, yeah, 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:52.119 I liked what you said about if you're awkward or 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:53.719 if you have a lot of these moments, it's probably 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.240 a sign that you're more tuned in and the average 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.879 person to the social dynamics of a situation. So may 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.000 be being aware of that can actually give you a 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.680 slight advantage, even if in the moment it feels terrible. Yeah, 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.040 I do think so. Yeah, it's like you're you're paying 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:12.640 attention to these like these nuances of human interaction, and 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.760 so it means you're maybe like noticing people's moods or 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:19.960 people's reactions to you, which can certainly be to your benefit. 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:22.480 I wouldn't really want this feeling to totally go away, 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.399 you know, because like when it comes up, it like 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.159 it means like, oh, something went wrong, why you know, 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:31.520 And that's that's useful. Well, thank you so much for 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:36.120 coming and talking to us about awkward. Thanks. Thanks guys. 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.399 We think of personality types as these fixed things like 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:48.760 you are an E. N T J. But I like 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:54.520 how Melissa makes a distinction where awkwardness is a feeling 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.280 like you are you feel awkward and therefore you can 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.400 overcome it. It's not like something that you're stuck in. Yeah, 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.600 I think it's probably a lot more helpful to think about, 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.400 you know, areas where you might have strengths and weaknesses 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.800 than it is to just try and classify yourself and 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.399 leave it there forever, because you can probably close off 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.199 a lot of opportunities. Like even when I take that 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.400 Myers Briggs test, like I've taken it a few times 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.760 and I always get a slightly different result. I'm always 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.840 an extrovert, but you know, the P and the T 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.080 and the J like that gets mixed around a little 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.440 because you're always shifting and changing. So I think that's 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.359 probably part of the danger of using it to screen 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:35.280 people too, But it can probably give you some clues 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.800 into the areas that maybe you could work on a 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:42.239 little bit more if it's right for your job thoughts. Right, 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:44.680 you don't always have to be an E N T. 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.840 J if you don't want to be. Yeah, you can 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.560 change and grow as a person. And the other thing 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.560 I think is important to remember is that if you 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.159 are doing a job and you feel like your personality 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.040 isn't perfect for that job. Like, let's say you're an introvert, 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.320 but you're in a job that requires a lot of communication. 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.679