Speaker 1: You live to try to defend your family, or you'd
Speaker 1: live to try to defend people if you can. It's
Speaker 1: not something I could put my finger on, but it's
Speaker 1: just inside of us. I would wait into a hill
Speaker 1: of bullets for somebody in my family to this day,
Speaker 1: and I don't know why, but it would, and everybody
Speaker 1: in my family would did the same. We just would.
Speaker 1: This is the Piked and Massacre returned to Pike County
Speaker 1: season three, episode eight, Manner of Life. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and
Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. So far the season, we've heard a lot
Speaker 1: about recent court proceedings between the Wagoners and the prosecution
Speaker 1: that will shape upcoming trials. They've covered everything from where
Speaker 1: the trials will be held, what evidence will be allowed
Speaker 1: into testimony, and who might be charged with what. All
Speaker 1: of this leads to what we hope will be some
Speaker 1: small form of justice for the Roden, Gillie and Manly
Speaker 1: families who lost the unthinkable. When the Maskaker initially happened
Speaker 1: six years ago, a lot of the remaining family members
Speaker 1: spoke publicly. Not so in recent years, however, we've made
Speaker 1: contact with some people who want to share their memories
Speaker 1: of their family. Here's Jeff speaking with a Roden family
Speaker 1: member who reached out to us. They've asked us not
Speaker 1: to use their name. I'm curious how you found us
Speaker 1: and what made you contact us. Now, I drive a
Speaker 1: lot on the road, and I listened to podcasts everywhere.
Speaker 1: I happened upon the pike in Masker, which you know,
Speaker 1: is part of my extended family. So I wanted to
Speaker 1: listen to it, and I was really impressed with the
Speaker 1: respect that was given to the family, and so a
Speaker 1: friend of mine and myself we eagerly wait every week
Speaker 1: to hear it, and so I just commented on it,
Speaker 1: you know, thanking you all for being respectful to the family.
Speaker 1: What is that experience like losing loved ones but then
Speaker 1: losing it in a way where other people are kind
Speaker 1: of a part of your experience. It'd be a strange
Speaker 1: thing to divine for you, because we would see each
Speaker 1: other a few times a year at family unions and
Speaker 1: what have you. So it was a giant shop. Man.
Speaker 1: I hate to say this, but it wasn't as hurting
Speaker 1: to me as I know it was to a lot
Speaker 1: of the very close family members, and it's hard to
Speaker 1: describe a law such a loss of a large chunk
Speaker 1: of a family. When you first heard the podcast, what
Speaker 1: was your thought? Kind of got interested in yours because
Speaker 1: you all would give the facts as they were, and
Speaker 1: then you would talk about the possibilities of how that
Speaker 1: would make people feel. So that was very interesting to me.
Speaker 1: These are not just people who were removed from this earth.
Speaker 1: They were people. They were real people. You actually going
Speaker 1: after trying to bring real life people to this is
Speaker 1: pretty exciting to me. I mean, not making them as
Speaker 1: victims alone. You're making them as people and that's appreciated.
Speaker 1: Jeff asked what growing up as a member of the
Speaker 1: Roden family was like he first spoke about Geneva Roden
Speaker 1: as a reminder, Geneva is Chris Roden seniors and Kenneth's mother,
Speaker 1: Frankie Hannah and little Chris's grandmother. Growing up, especially in
Speaker 1: my younger years, we would go visit Geneva and her family,
Speaker 1: and the things I remember the most when you met Geneva,
Speaker 1: you were guaranteed a smile and always a hug, and
Speaker 1: whatever they had, whether it be a watermelon or a
Speaker 1: piece of cake or whatever it was was shared with you.
Speaker 1: When you got there, you just became one of the kids.
Speaker 1: Geneva just was always the sweetest thing ever was and
Speaker 1: would just hug you to death. About three times a year,
Speaker 1: our family would get together and we would just pile
Speaker 1: in a car and we would ride and see relatives,
Speaker 1: and Geneva lived close to other relatives, so we would
Speaker 1: just kind of make a big round trip in two
Speaker 1: Ohio and then back into Kentucky. We would spend two
Speaker 1: or three days up there, just following up wherever we could.
Speaker 1: And our family was that way. If you went to
Speaker 1: their house, they just made room for you. It didn't matter.
Speaker 1: You just had a great time and you go swimming
Speaker 1: and you do this and that. We didn't have Facebook
Speaker 1: or things like that in those days. It sounds like
Speaker 1: you like a nice way to grow up. It was,
Speaker 1: it really was. Immediately after the murders, Geneva spoke publicly
Speaker 1: about the unimaginable loss she was facing. On April twenty second,
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, in one single night, she lost her son's
Speaker 1: Chris Roden Senior and Kenneth Roden, her grandchildren Frankie, Hannah
Speaker 1: May and Little Chris Roden and her nephew Gary. Her
Speaker 1: words were a stark juxtaposition to the idyllic life her
Speaker 1: family once lived. Love decided. I'm the mother Christopher Senior
Speaker 1: and the mother of Kenneth, and from my mother's heart
Speaker 1: had I hurt so bad inside from the day that
Speaker 1: I flmed out. If there's someone out there that knows
Speaker 1: anything about what happened with the pleased pleased coming forward,
Speaker 1: there has to be so one. It was all but
Speaker 1: looks like the world had ended when I found out
Speaker 1: about the family that they took out my grandchildren, X
Speaker 1: daughter at all, my nephew and my grandson, my girlfriend.
Speaker 1: There was eight members that they took that day, and
Speaker 1: the hurt them blue way from a mother, I think
Speaker 1: about a day night, I lose a lot of sleep
Speaker 1: board and still what try to go on the rest
Speaker 1: of my children is going to so much listen to
Speaker 1: brothers the same day. I would have never dreamed that's
Speaker 1: something that is would happen. Here are Stephanie and Jeff
Speaker 1: speaking about Geneva Rodin. Geneva Rodin is nearly eighty years old,
Speaker 1: and it's impossible to imagine what she deals with every day.
Speaker 1: Not only the court proceedings, but also being there for
Speaker 1: her family because there's still many other family members who
Speaker 1: rely on her and lean on her as the Rodan matriarch.
Speaker 1: Several years ago, when we were first making the documentary
Speaker 1: for Oxygen about the Rodent murders, Jeff and I actually
Speaker 1: went to the nursing home that Geneva resided at. At
Speaker 1: the time, we actually thought she was a distant cousin
Speaker 1: to the Rodents, and we didn't realize until we got
Speaker 1: there that she was actually Chris Senior's mother and that
Speaker 1: she had lost her children and her grandchildren, And ultimately
Speaker 1: she was uncomfortable speaking on camera, which we of course
Speaker 1: completely understood. It was all just way too raw for
Speaker 1: her and her level of grief was frankly unimaginable. Geneva
Speaker 1: is really an example of a person who's frankly inspiring.
Speaker 1: You know, We've said this many times since then. When
Speaker 1: you meet another human being who has experienced such deep
Speaker 1: pain and she can continue to push on and continue
Speaker 1: to be there for her loved ones and show up
Speaker 1: to court relentlessly and push through, then surely the rest
Speaker 1: of us can push through whatever stressing us in our lives.
Speaker 1: And she's really offered us a lot of perspective. I
Speaker 1: share this really simply to say the level of grief
Speaker 1: that this family has experienced is incredibly far reaching. Geneva
Speaker 1: Rodan and other members for her family, I would imagine
Speaker 1: the catalysts for them wanting to speak out is to
Speaker 1: bring attention to their family's case and not just how
Speaker 1: to be about the accused Wagner family, and really remind
Speaker 1: everyone that the victims, the Rodents in this case, were
Speaker 1: real human beings who were not just what happened to
Speaker 1: them in twenty sixteen. It's so true. And also, you know,
Speaker 1: oftentimes when we talk about crime, the victims just become
Speaker 1: a footnote. It's always about the manner of death and
Speaker 1: less about the manner of life. And this is another
Speaker 1: example that you know, Geneva is a living and breathing
Speaker 1: woman who has had her entire family wiped out, and
Speaker 1: whoever is responsible for that should pay. Jeff continued his
Speaker 1: conversation with the Rodent family member. Where Chris Senior and
Speaker 1: Gary and Kenneth were they around? Did you see them?
Speaker 1: They were about probably eight or nine, maybe teen years younger. Man.
Speaker 1: I remember Chris Junior and Kenneth and them they were
Speaker 1: wandering around just doing what kids do. They played with us.
Speaker 1: Kids have always just played together. We really didn't keep
Speaker 1: in contact after you know, outside of family unions. Every
Speaker 1: life kept getting in a way for everyone. And that's
Speaker 1: just a sad fact of the way it was. They
Speaker 1: were just beating their way through this world, just like
Speaker 1: everyone else. To believe, that's why this thing was more
Speaker 1: shocking than one would think. It became clear that there
Speaker 1: were obvious parallels between Chris Roden Senior's upbringing and how he,
Speaker 1: alongside his wife Dana, raised his own family. They were
Speaker 1: just people, They were just good old Americans. She was
Speaker 1: the daughter of a man named Tip who lost his
Speaker 1: life in a little place called Jonesborough, Ohio. He was logging.
Speaker 1: An attractor come back on him and killed him. And
Speaker 1: then not too long after that, she lost her mother.
Speaker 1: That left Geneva with raising her own siblings. After losing
Speaker 1: her mother and father, she got married and they had children,
Speaker 1: And this happened at the same time, and that she
Speaker 1: had this entire group of people, her siblings and her
Speaker 1: own children that she was raising. So that takes an
Speaker 1: immense amount of strength to do, giving the way the
Speaker 1: world is in Geneva didn't have a whole lot to
Speaker 1: get through this world, but she made it. She was
Speaker 1: and she raised them, and she raised fine people. Geneva's
Speaker 1: father was one of eight or ten brothers who grew
Speaker 1: up down in Kentucky. They lived in poverty, but it's
Speaker 1: not a poverty that most people would understand. During the wintertime,
Speaker 1: they didn't have shoes. They didn't even have leather to
Speaker 1: put on their feet. They would rap rags or whatever
Speaker 1: they could find around their feet just to get to school.
Speaker 1: They went to school in a one room schoolhouse on
Speaker 1: a little place called Grassy Creek. There was no way
Speaker 1: to make a living for their father, James. That survival
Speaker 1: instinct was passed down through through Geneva in most of
Speaker 1: the family, and her dad was an amazing man, even
Speaker 1: long before there were mechanics. He would find old cars
Speaker 1: or tractors and make them run, and then he would
Speaker 1: trade them for stuff that didn't run. Now, in that
Speaker 1: trade he would get a little extra money which would
Speaker 1: go to his family and they might be able to
Speaker 1: buy a little something, a little bit of food. I've
Speaker 1: heard with the Roden's being super resourceful with cars and
Speaker 1: good with your hands, I've heard that about Chris Senior
Speaker 1: being fiercely protective of one another and going to bath
Speaker 1: for each other. It's the same stuff, and it's a
Speaker 1: little easier for me then it would be for you,
Speaker 1: of course, because I know the family. But that is
Speaker 1: very interesting that you can draw a line from the
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds to her children and see similarities, like
Speaker 1: Chris Junior would just jump under the hood of a
Speaker 1: car and be able to fix it. I can see
Speaker 1: those similarities and being able to defend each other. I
Speaker 1: can see that going all the way back to that
Speaker 1: side of the family. I just want to clarify by
Speaker 1: Chris Junior, you mean Chris Roden sor yes, he's Chris
Speaker 1: Junior to you, because there's another Chris. Yes. Jeff also
Speaker 1: recently had a phone conversation with Talicia, Dana and Chris
Speaker 1: Senior's niece and Hannah, Frankie and little Chris cousin. Well
Speaker 1: gone more than six years now, the Rodents are present
Speaker 1: with Talicia and live on with her young daughters. As
Speaker 1: someone who has been working on this story for many years,
Speaker 1: I feel very touched by it, and I'm sure you
Speaker 1: know obviously being related to everyone, it means a lot
Speaker 1: to share her about and talk about it. Can you
Speaker 1: hear me? Okay, yeah, I can hear you. I was
Speaker 1: checking to see where the kids work. How many kids
Speaker 1: do you have? I have foo? You have your hands fall? Yes,
Speaker 1: they're all girls. I actually have one named after aunt Dana,
Speaker 1: and her name is Hannah Lynne. We gave her Hannah
Speaker 1: after the two Hannah's and Lynne after Dana. That's beautiful.
Speaker 1: So Dana was your great aunt and she was able
Speaker 1: to meet your eldest daughter, Cherokee before everything happened. Dana
Speaker 1: was my aunt. She was Cherokee's great aunt. So who
Speaker 1: are your parents? My mother was Dana's sister, Kathie. She
Speaker 1: has two sisters and a brother. Her brother's name is
Speaker 1: James Manley. And then my other aunt Bobby Joe. As
Speaker 1: a reminder, Talicia's aunt, Bobby Joe Manley is the one
Speaker 1: who discovered the horrific crime scene and called nine one
Speaker 1: one nine one yes, if yes, forty over? I need
Speaker 1: who walked to the no ball? Okay, my brother halls dead? Okay,
Speaker 1: what girl Davey has sat here? Forty seventy seventy forty
Speaker 1: seventy seven, forty seventy seven. Okay fort zero seven seven
Speaker 1: email correct, yes for you see man on yes, all
Speaker 1: over the house. Okay, my brother Haws who says very look,
Speaker 1: I'll beat the hell. Okay, we're gonna blood all hearts
Speaker 1: the man. Can you coming the county? That's dad is down.
Speaker 1: It's my county. H Okay, okay, I need to get
Speaker 1: out of the house. They can drive over there. That's
Speaker 1: a head running Christler and seen Garry Rod and Sank
Speaker 1: and Gary Rod and start things ahead. Looks like the
Speaker 1: dad take your vad. I think the great dads. I
Speaker 1: don't speaker pop out of them. Okay. If there anybody
Speaker 1: else in the house, I know. Okay, the door was lost,
Speaker 1: be good here, but on her friend team was and
Speaker 1: I went in and hit her, landing on the floor
Speaker 1: and went on house and I'm starting now. Okay, stay
Speaker 1: out of the house the way anybody got her there? Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, we don't get it. He's on my right. Okay,
Speaker 1: I thank you your mother. The trauma of that discovery
Speaker 1: is long lasting. I used to hang out a lot
Speaker 1: with Bobby Joe that like after everything happened, she just
Speaker 1: like completely changed. Here again is Jeff as a reminder,
Speaker 1: Bobby Joe Manly is Dana Roden's sister, and she discovered
Speaker 1: the horrific crime scene at Chris Senior Roden and Frankie
Speaker 1: Roden's house, and to just kind of put yourself in
Speaker 1: her shoes, she found out that her loved ones were
Speaker 1: heinously murdered, not by word of mouth, but actually by
Speaker 1: discovering their bloody bodies. And an experience like that it
Speaker 1: changes you forever, how could it not. And we did
Speaker 1: a little research into severe trauma like the kind Bobby
Speaker 1: Joe experienced, and only around seven percent of Americans report
Speaker 1: experiencing an event like this. And obviously, even I would
Speaker 1: say what Bobby Joe went through is probably worse than
Speaker 1: what a lot of those seven percent report. It's just unimaginable,
Speaker 1: and I don't think anyone could ever understand what she's
Speaker 1: dealt with. Here's steph again speaking with Telicia. To me
Speaker 1: and Hannah were only like six months and four two
Speaker 1: days apart. Wow, I just turned twenty four. I actually
Speaker 1: have a picture of us on our baby and my
Speaker 1: baby book in the Very Bad She was a year
Speaker 1: and a half in this picture and I was five months.
Speaker 1: So you guys grew up together. The leat your rope
Speaker 1: togeverybody was pretty close her and my little brother was
Speaker 1: close to him, and Christopher wasn't very far apart either.
Speaker 1: Everybody used to ask me what I thought of Frankiella
Speaker 1: was like, listen, me and Frankie and Hannah and Christopher
Speaker 1: and Henry Junior, which is my brother, and Heath, which
Speaker 1: is my other girl. I said, we was something else,
Speaker 1: especially around Fourth of July, because when four the July came,
Speaker 1: we wanted to try and have Roman candle fights and
Speaker 1: everything else, so there'd be like big family celebrations on
Speaker 1: these kind of days. Yeah, we're going to take a break.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. As they grow into teenagers,
Speaker 1: like many girls, Talicia and Hannah May would do each
Speaker 1: other's hair and makeup and have fun just driving around.
Speaker 1: Me and Hannah May like the long destination drives with
Speaker 1: no idea where it was going. I'm just listening to music.
Speaker 1: What kind of music did she like? She was mainly
Speaker 1: a country girl. Other than that she liked Brian Church
Speaker 1: I think is his name. She did ay sity a
Speaker 1: country girl. When she was in a jeep, she liked
Speaker 1: to go out, and she liked to go money and
Speaker 1: tell me about Dana. What kind of aunt was she?
Speaker 1: She would take us all clothes, shopping for school and stuff.
Speaker 1: When school time came around. Your kids are young, do
Speaker 1: they know about your great aunt and what happened. I
Speaker 1: actually have a book I made in memory of them.
Speaker 1: It's like a photo album book. I figured why not
Speaker 1: keep their memory alive with the children. When I was
Speaker 1: pregnant with Cherokee, Hannah had actually done a like a
Speaker 1: gender revealed with me. She done my pictures and then
Speaker 1: right before I gave birth to Cherokee, she had also
Speaker 1: done my maternity picture. Dana was one of the first
Speaker 1: ones I told that I was pregnant with Cherokee. She
Speaker 1: was so excited and she kept telling me, all you're
Speaker 1: having a girl. I was like, hey day, and I
Speaker 1: don't know yet. I had went into labor with Cherokee
Speaker 1: on the eighth of March and then I didn't have
Speaker 1: her until the nights, and Dana was there the whole time.
Speaker 1: She pasted the floors and she was like, is she
Speaker 1: ready to get hurt? And Hanname was there when Nana
Speaker 1: first saw Cherokee. She started crying at first, and she
Speaker 1: looked at me and she was like, she's so beautiful.
Speaker 1: After we brought her home from the hospital, she would
Speaker 1: always want Cherokee to come out and take naps with
Speaker 1: her before she went to work, and she wanted to
Speaker 1: do pictures with Cherokee. I was born twenty fifteen, and
Speaker 1: then Hannah was born, not even a month after they
Speaker 1: were killed. When I went into labor with Hannah, I
Speaker 1: looked at my mom and I said, I wish Auntina
Speaker 1: was here, because you know, she was there for the
Speaker 1: first baby, she would have wanted to be there for
Speaker 1: the second. After I had delivered Hannah, I ended up
Speaker 1: crying because I kept looking at her, and I've kept
Speaker 1: telling Mama, was like, I want to be happy, but
Speaker 1: I'm also kind of sad because you know, it's not
Speaker 1: even been a month yet and we had lost family members.
Speaker 1: How do you deal with that or reconcile with wanting
Speaker 1: to remember but also wanting to live your life. When
Speaker 1: I'm with the girls, I try to teach them stuff
Speaker 1: that like Aunt Dana would have taught them as well.
Speaker 1: Terry Key. She knows that if we go to the cemetery,
Speaker 1: Aunt Dana's there and she'll ask, can we go see
Speaker 1: Aunt Dana? Mommy and I will take her to see
Speaker 1: the grave. We took her just a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1: How do you think that the manly wrote in Jelly
Speaker 1: families will be different now that all this has happened.
Speaker 1: When it first happened, like we was all really close
Speaker 1: with each other, and after the year started going out,
Speaker 1: the only other time we gather is like when we
Speaker 1: want to do like a release or a candle fighting
Speaker 1: for another year of them being dead. Jeff as Talicia
Speaker 1: if there was anything she could learn from this terrible tragedy,
Speaker 1: and she was reminded of advice that her cousin Hannah
Speaker 1: Ma gave her. I don't go by words. I watched
Speaker 1: their actions. Hannah would teach me where she was murdered.
Speaker 1: She would tell me you can't trust their words because
Speaker 1: their words can always be broken. She's like, trust their actions.
Speaker 1: What do you try to take away from Dana? As
Speaker 1: you're a mom now she would take in the kids
Speaker 1: that wasn't even hers. So everybody tells me that I'm
Speaker 1: just like Aunt Dana Cherokee. She's she's usually a very
Speaker 1: playful girl. She's like running around playing there was one day,
Speaker 1: but was all sitting outside at night. We was around
Speaker 1: a campfire, and she looked at us and she said, MoMA,
Speaker 1: I missed Dana and I wish she was here. So
Speaker 1: I liked that Cherokee and I pointed up at the stories.
Speaker 1: I said, did you see that bright story there, the
Speaker 1: brightest one in the sky. She said yeah, I said,
Speaker 1: that's Dana watching over you. Well, clearly the Rodents enjoy
Speaker 1: a strong sense of family. There are some dark things
Speaker 1: that have happened to generations of the Rodents that can't
Speaker 1: be ignored. I wonder about you. Hear the term generational trauma.
Speaker 1: What is your take on generational trauma and how it
Speaker 1: affects your family. The saddest part of this is that
Speaker 1: only in the later years have we begun to even
Speaker 1: to realize generational trauma. For people of that generation, it
Speaker 1: was never considered trauma. It was just considered life. I
Speaker 1: know that's a sad thing to say, but it was
Speaker 1: just considered being able to live through, to fight through.
Speaker 1: In these days, we really do understand so much better.
Speaker 1: But I have to believe that in those days, what
Speaker 1: it really meant was as sad as it is to say,
Speaker 1: I think that type of trauma, giving from that generational
Speaker 1: one really makes people stronger in a way. The survival
Speaker 1: instinct is just within this family. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff.
Speaker 1: Generational trauma is trauma that isn't just experienced by one person,
Speaker 1: but extends from one generation to the next. And now
Speaker 1: everyone is susceptible to generational trauma, but there are specific
Speaker 1: populations that are more vulnerable due to their histories, and
Speaker 1: two of those buckets are poverty and violence, which based
Speaker 1: on what we've been told about the Rodent family history,
Speaker 1: it seems that they would be susceptible to this type
Speaker 1: of trauma. Based on our further research, dealing with generational
Speaker 1: trauma is best dealt with through counseling. I recently spoke
Speaker 1: to a psychiatrist who said that the Rodents were really
Speaker 1: emblematic of generational trauma and they shared a very famous
Speaker 1: example of what that could and there was experiment conducted
Speaker 1: by scientists on mice and a lab and the scientists
Speaker 1: would basically spray perfume near mice and then shock the mice,
Speaker 1: and they would repeat that on a regular basis. They
Speaker 1: would spray their perfume, shock the mice, spray their perfume,
Speaker 1: shock the mice, and then sure enough, eventually, even without
Speaker 1: shocking them, they would just spray the perfume and the
Speaker 1: mouse would physically respond as though it had been shocked.
Speaker 1: Perhaps even more interestingly, those mice eventually had babies of
Speaker 1: their own, and guess what when the scientists sprayed those
Speaker 1: mice with the perfume, they too would physically react like
Speaker 1: they were being shocked, even though they weren't. This would
Speaker 1: be an example of how trauma and sorrow can literally
Speaker 1: be passed down generationally on a cellular level, as if
Speaker 1: it becomes part of our DNA. Let's stop here for
Speaker 1: another break. Here again our anonymous Rodent family member talking
Speaker 1: about Chris Senior's mother, Geneva. They will come through when
Speaker 1: this is long gone and we're remembering back, and they
Speaker 1: will come out on the other side with their chins up.
Speaker 1: No matter what happens, no matter who's locked up for what,
Speaker 1: no matter who goes to prison, Geneva will walk with
Speaker 1: her head up, and she will still be smiling. She
Speaker 1: will smile. And I can only imagine the pain and
Speaker 1: the tolls took on her, you know, with what happened.
Speaker 1: But she will survive. That's just in her bloodline. She
Speaker 1: will come through this. I don't think there's anything that
Speaker 1: any of us could learn from this. It's just an awful,
Speaker 1: terrible thing. How would you want your family to be remembered?
Speaker 1: What's the legacy you being remembered a certain way probably
Speaker 1: isn't as high on the list for my family or
Speaker 1: my cousin. We would just like to know that we
Speaker 1: did the best we could while we were here, and
Speaker 1: if that means some type of legacy was left, then fantastic.
Speaker 1: But if it doesn't, it still doesn't matter. We carved
Speaker 1: our place out of this world. We know within ourselves
Speaker 1: that you know, we are survivors and for lack of
Speaker 1: a better term, we are fighters. You know, we will
Speaker 1: fight for what we believe, and that is in family.
Speaker 1: In current times, the only thing, and this is sad
Speaker 1: to say that the world even knows the name wrote
Speaker 1: and would be because of a terrible tragedy. I can
Speaker 1: say absolutely that we don't want to know him for
Speaker 1: just then, have you been following the court cases or
Speaker 1: the legal proceedings, and if so, what's your take on
Speaker 1: the My take on it is that this family was
Speaker 1: just a strange and terrible, small cult like family. This
Speaker 1: is just me, my own personal opinion, and no matter what,
Speaker 1: I feel like they were guided by one in the family.
Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying this person made them do it.
Speaker 1: I'm saying they were guided by that person then would
Speaker 1: do absolutely anything for this person, and somehow it went
Speaker 1: from not killing people to killing people. And I don't
Speaker 1: know what happened during that. I know that during the
Speaker 1: plea when two of them played out, one claiming that
Speaker 1: he didn't shoot anyone and the other one I'm not
Speaker 1: even sure what he's claiming. It's going to be pretty
Speaker 1: interesting of what happens there. But I just believe it
Speaker 1: was a small cult family that just got ideas flowing
Speaker 1: in the kitchen with baskets on the wall, and these
Speaker 1: ideas just kept going and going and going until there
Speaker 1: was no turning back. Do you think Angela Wagner was
Speaker 1: kind of the one at the humble all us. I
Speaker 1: feel like that, and I could absolutely be wrong, but
Speaker 1: I feel like she was that type that she would
Speaker 1: be the one to just kind of corner them in
Speaker 1: and you know, here's what we're doing, guys, and this
Speaker 1: is what we need to do. Guys, and then you know,
Speaker 1: and that comes from what I've read and just the
Speaker 1: evidence that I've seen. I'm sure that there's mountains of
Speaker 1: evidence that I haven't seen or heard from it, as
Speaker 1: I shouldn't because that's you know, that should be in court.
Speaker 1: But that's where I am right now with it, which
Speaker 1: it could change the next day. But I feel like
Speaker 1: that she kind of kept the strong arm on these
Speaker 1: boys for all these years, and it became so normal
Speaker 1: to them that if mom says X, then X it
Speaker 1: is right. That does seem to be what we're caring.
Speaker 1: And do you feel a justice is going to be served?
Speaker 1: Is there such a thing as justice in this situation?
Speaker 1: I am a great believer in justice, I really am.
Speaker 1: I absolutely feel that justice will be served, and I
Speaker 1: believe wholeheartedly in our justice system. I'm not hoping for
Speaker 1: anything one way or the other. I'm not hoping for
Speaker 1: this sentence or that sentence. I have faith in our
Speaker 1: justice system, and I believe in the end the powers
Speaker 1: to be we'll see that justice is done. And this
Speaker 1: was a family and they had every right to walk
Speaker 1: on this earth with the rest of us, and someone
Speaker 1: took that from them. And everyone needs to know that
Speaker 1: these people lived, and these people had lives, and they
Speaker 1: loved and they worked, and they are so much more
Speaker 1: than what we're going to see and the years to come,
Speaker 1: and it can't be helped. I know that the trial
Speaker 1: and the people on trial would be in the limelight,
Speaker 1: and that just is as it has to be. But
Speaker 1: it is very important to me that the world knows
Speaker 1: that they were alive, and they were living, and they
Speaker 1: were loved, and they hadn't children. I just don't want
Speaker 1: it forgotten that these were people. More on that next time.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our
Speaker 1: other hit series, Crazy and Love. New episodes there every
Speaker 1: Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and
Speaker 1: case photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
Speaker 1: The Pikes and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane,
Speaker 1: Chris Greaves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed
Speaker 1: by Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston, audio mixing by
Speaker 1: Ken Novak. The Piked and Massacre is a production of
Speaker 1: Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.