1
00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:04,000
Speaker 1: Happy Saturday everyone. This is Chuck from Stuff you Should Know,

2
00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: and welcome to my select pick for the week. This

3
00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,360
Speaker 1: is from October fift two thousand fifteen, and it's called

4
00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,880
Speaker 1: How Wine Fraud Works. And I selected this because spend

5
00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,240
Speaker 1: a minute since I've listened to it, and I love wine,

6
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,759
Speaker 1: as you know, and I hate wine fraud as you

7
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,080
Speaker 1: probably know as well. So let's learn about it together.

8
00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,200
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of my

9
00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

10
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,239
Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark. There's Child's of w Chuck Bryant and

11
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,040
Speaker 1: no little bit even this Stuff you Should Know. Man,

12
00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,120
Speaker 1: that coffee smells good? You want something? Have a sip? No,

13
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,000
Speaker 1: I'm fine, but just I just love that smells so nice,

14
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,760
Speaker 1: even though I don't drink much coffee. Oh yeah, I'm

15
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,360
Speaker 1: with you. You know, it's just a delicious smell. Sometimes

16
00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,760
Speaker 1: I'll go to a department store and just walk through

17
00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,680
Speaker 1: the fragrance s aisle and just smell the coffee samples.

18
00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:01,400
Speaker 1: Today open. Well, I thought you were gonna say you

19
00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,120
Speaker 1: go through the lingerie and just brushed up against things

20
00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,720
Speaker 1: after the coffee, So after the coffee, sniffing is done

21
00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:14,119
Speaker 1: and I can't smell anything anymore. How are you? Thanks

22
00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:19,080
Speaker 1: for outing me? Man, that's creepy. Yeah, I'm sure there's

23
00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,200
Speaker 1: weirdos out there who do that. Are you kidding me?

24
00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:29,080
Speaker 1: There's probably websites dedicated to it. Yeah, I'm fine. Good. Good?

25
00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,880
Speaker 1: Do you like wine? I love wine? How do you know,

26
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,679
Speaker 1: Chuck that the wine you're drinking it's actually the wine

27
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:41,640
Speaker 1: you're thinking it because nobody bothers to fraudulently rip off

28
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:47,960
Speaker 1: bottle of one. Not true. Yeah, there's a famous issue

29
00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 1: in the world of wine fraud watch people. Okay, um

30
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,760
Speaker 1: from Tesco, which is I think it's just a straight

31
00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,680
Speaker 1: up like supermarket kim In Britain, I saw that. Actually, yeah,

32
00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 1: you're right. And there was a Louisia dough which normally

33
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 1: goes for about fifteen pounds. It was selling on sale

34
00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,040
Speaker 1: for five pounds, but one of the guys who purchased

35
00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,760
Speaker 1: it contacted some people who are into wine and said,

36
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,080
Speaker 1: I think this is phony because the label looks like

37
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,040
Speaker 1: it's a photo copy. So somebody was doing knock off

38
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,560
Speaker 1: Luisia dough which normally goes for not that much, and

39
00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:23,880
Speaker 1: sold it to Tesco, who was in turn selling it.

40
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 1: And this is a huge thing, and there's a big,

41
00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:31,960
Speaker 1: big debate even still and just how widespread wine fraud is.

42
00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,560
Speaker 1: And it's really difficult to get to the bottom of

43
00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,040
Speaker 1: because there's so many people who have their fingers in

44
00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:43,679
Speaker 1: this fraudulent pot, whether wittingly or unwittingly, in either way,

45
00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,920
Speaker 1: are unwilling to admit that it's as extensive as it is,

46
00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,959
Speaker 1: or the people who are burned are making a bigger

47
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,720
Speaker 1: deal out of it than they are than it really is,

48
00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,519
Speaker 1: because they have the money in the context to get

49
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,079
Speaker 1: CBS to do a story on how they got burned

50
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,320
Speaker 1: by buying some fake wine. So it's not entirely clear

51
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,960
Speaker 1: how widespread it is. But there have been some really great,

52
00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:14,520
Speaker 1: very famous, almost proven stories of outright wine fraud. But

53
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,680
Speaker 1: it's a pretty new phenomenon. Uh well, if you think

54
00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,480
Speaker 1: ancient Rome is pretty new, let's hear it man. Well

55
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,800
Speaker 1: that's I mean there ever, since there was wine, people

56
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,480
Speaker 1: were making fake wine or trumping it up as something

57
00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,560
Speaker 1: other than it was. So the newer practice, like you

58
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,120
Speaker 1: can divide it into two things. There was an ancient

59
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 1: room they were doing stuff like this and adding like

60
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,920
Speaker 1: lead to wine. To sweeten it while they were killing people. Uh.

61
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,360
Speaker 1: But then there's the new practice of like, hey, this

62
00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,640
Speaker 1: is a Thomas Jefferson bottle of wine and you can

63
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,840
Speaker 1: bide it to Christie's auction for a hundred thousand dollars

64
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,120
Speaker 1: and it's really not that at all. Do you remember

65
00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 1: back in the eighties, Um, I think Reo Needy was

66
00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,280
Speaker 1: adding like when you wipe her fluid or something. Yeah,

67
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,920
Speaker 1: it was at the at least an urban legend. More recently,

68
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 1: there was something added to wine to make it sweeter

69
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,600
Speaker 1: that was really bad for you. But I don't know,

70
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,680
Speaker 1: I can't confirm if it was that case or No,

71
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,680
Speaker 1: this was specifically re Needy in the eighties. And it again,

72
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 1: it could have just been an urban legend because it's

73
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,640
Speaker 1: at the same time that there were spiders eggs in

74
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,760
Speaker 1: bubble yum. You know. Yeah, there was a lot of

75
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,000
Speaker 1: like a consumer uh panic. I think. Yeah, it was

76
00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,760
Speaker 1: a golden age for urban legends. Yeah, agreed. Uh. And

77
00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,680
Speaker 1: you know what we need to do one on wine period? Yes,

78
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,680
Speaker 1: this is so us. Yeah, we'll do episodes on everything

79
00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,159
Speaker 1: but the actual thing, and then we'll finally get to

80
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,440
Speaker 1: the thing. And we could also probably do a completely

81
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:46,560
Speaker 1: separate podcast on wine tasting, because man, that's a really

82
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,560
Speaker 1: bitter pill. Because there are some people who say there

83
00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 1: really is no difference in these wines, and there have

84
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,760
Speaker 1: been numerous occasions over the years where jerks have set

85
00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:04,640
Speaker 1: up wine tasters to fail by just switching out wines

86
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,800
Speaker 1: and saying, this is a really nice bottle. What's really

87
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,600
Speaker 1: crappy and they say, whoa, this is lovely. The tannins

88
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,839
Speaker 1: are really coming in. It's jammie and full, and they're like,

89
00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,440
Speaker 1: you're drinking too buck chuck. Um. People love that stuff

90
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,440
Speaker 1: that it's a big bone of contention with wine drinkers

91
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,360
Speaker 1: and also people who like to poop poo that right

92
00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,839
Speaker 1: and say it's all subjective and you're all just snooty

93
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,880
Speaker 1: and either really is no difference, but there really is

94
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,599
Speaker 1: a difference. Well, okay, so there is a like you say,

95
00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,520
Speaker 1: there's there's a big debate over that, right, um, But

96
00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,120
Speaker 1: if you if you dive into the world of high

97
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:42,440
Speaker 1: end vintage wine collecting, it is very um it's like

98
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,039
Speaker 1: an aura borus, right, that snake that eats its own

99
00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:50,320
Speaker 1: tail in that the people who are in charge of

100
00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:55,240
Speaker 1: judging whether something's real or not are basing that on

101
00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,680
Speaker 1: their previous experiences, which may or may not have been

102
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,280
Speaker 1: in experience with the fraudulent wine. So even if you

103
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,080
Speaker 1: can tell the difference, if you've only been exposed to, say,

104
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:12,279
Speaker 1: fraudulent eight century wine, then when you are asked to

105
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,120
Speaker 1: judge a bottle of eighteenth century wine, you're gonna compare

106
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 1: it to that, and if it's ultimately coming from the

107
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,279
Speaker 1: same counterfeitter, you will be like, yes, this is the

108
00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,120
Speaker 1: real thing, because I've had that before and it tastes

109
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 1: like that. Well, yeah, And here's the other thing. Is

110
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:33,919
Speaker 1: there there is vintage, uh, appropriately aged wine that is

111
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,480
Speaker 1: tastes great because it has aged in such a way,

112
00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,799
Speaker 1: and then there are these super old bottles that apparently

113
00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 1: tastes like canned asparagus. Is the note that it brings out,

114
00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,240
Speaker 1: And these don't even taste that good. It's just the

115
00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 1: fact that you can own it and show people you

116
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,600
Speaker 1: don't even drink it. In most cases, you don't drink it.

117
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,839
Speaker 1: Jefferson Wine, you have it in your collection, so you say,

118
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,279
Speaker 1: look at Michael Alec exactly. That's the whole point A

119
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:03,960
Speaker 1: lot of people are For a lot of people, that's

120
00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,159
Speaker 1: the whole point it's just own this bottle. It's like

121
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 1: owning a piece of Thomas Jefferson. You get to show

122
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 1: off and and tell people how great you are, right exactly. So, Um,

123
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,200
Speaker 1: that's how a lot of wine counterfeiting has gotten away

124
00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,800
Speaker 1: with because the people are never going to open the wine,

125
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,560
Speaker 1: So whatever tampering you did with the seal is never

126
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,280
Speaker 1: going to be discovered. Um, they're never gonna taste the

127
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,200
Speaker 1: wine inside, so it could be two buck chalk or

128
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 1: whatever we see the cork. Yeah, Um, and they're just

129
00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 1: they're just happy to have this thing and their status

130
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 1: to be elevated to the point where they don't really

131
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 1: want to know if it's a counterfeit so long as

132
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,680
Speaker 1: they can walk around and tell people this is Thomas Jefferson. Right, Well,

133
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,000
Speaker 1: we should go ahead and start talking about Bill Coke.

134
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,480
Speaker 1: He is uh, one of the other brothers. He is

135
00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 1: not Charles or David Coke of the famous uh Republican

136
00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:06,360
Speaker 1: Coke brother fame. Yeah, billionaire supporters of the Republican Party. Yeah. Yeah,

137
00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 1: she's saying that's like the nicest way to describe them. Yeah,

138
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,440
Speaker 1: it is. Uh. He is the brother, one of the

139
00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,840
Speaker 1: brothers who got out along with another brother. Um, not

140
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,560
Speaker 1: another brother from another mother. No, they're all the same mother,

141
00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,000
Speaker 1: right right, Okay, Yeah, he got out of the family

142
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,280
Speaker 1: business and said, you know what, I'm a billionaire. I'm

143
00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 1: gonna what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna start collecting

144
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 1: really rare and expensive things. Um. One thing he has

145
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,800
Speaker 1: as a gun collection. He owns Custer's rifle, Billy the

146
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,160
Speaker 1: Kid's pistol. Does he yea, he owns the gun that

147
00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,640
Speaker 1: killed Jesse James. Oh, I'm sorry, is Jesse James pistol?

148
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:47,640
Speaker 1: And that gun and that what was his name, Robert Ford? Yeah?

149
00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:53,000
Speaker 1: And that boy was it really good? Beautifully shot as

150
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,520
Speaker 1: well WIDEPS rifle dot Holiday's rifle. He has a lot

151
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,760
Speaker 1: of vintage guns. He has a lot of very famous

152
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,480
Speaker 1: works of art, like original Picassos and Monaise. As far

153
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,080
Speaker 1: as he exactly, he sounds like a big sucker to me.

154
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,600
Speaker 1: And he also owns, uh as this article says, several

155
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 1: hundred bottles of what he calls moose piss. Yeah, that's

156
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,600
Speaker 1: what he calls it. He's he well, he's saying that

157
00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 1: for all he knows. That's what's inside. He got duped

158
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,000
Speaker 1: very famously, many many times. Yeah, and he has had

159
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,199
Speaker 1: many many lawsuits over the years that have come out.

160
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,360
Speaker 1: Guy loves suing people. He does what he calls dropping

161
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:36,000
Speaker 1: subpoena is on people. Yeah, he sees people almost recreationally

162
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,600
Speaker 1: he drops a subpoena on their head. Yeah, what a guy.

163
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:45,160
Speaker 1: So he um. He bill Coke again very famously. He's

164
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,800
Speaker 1: probably the most famous victim of wine fraud because he

165
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,000
Speaker 1: sues everybody he possibly can who may or may not

166
00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,200
Speaker 1: have sold them a fake. Really takes it personally, and

167
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,320
Speaker 1: he really goes after people. Um. And he did a

168
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,320
Speaker 1: lot of media about this too, so he's very famous

169
00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,160
Speaker 1: for this. UM. And he brought in some wine experts

170
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,480
Speaker 1: and said, here are thirty thousand, forty thousand bottles of

171
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,960
Speaker 1: wine that I have in my cellers. How many are fake?

172
00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,960
Speaker 1: And they just took a random sample of three bottles

173
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,960
Speaker 1: kidding me, no, they said exactly. They're like, we'll bill

174
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 1: you for this. Um. They took a random sample of

175
00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,480
Speaker 1: three thousand bottles and it yielded a hundred and thirty fakes.

176
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,080
Speaker 1: So I mean he has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

177
00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:38,200
Speaker 1: by by extension, of fake bottles of wine in his cellar.

178
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,640
Speaker 1: And that was actually that's about on par with what

179
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:49,560
Speaker 1: the average not necessarily uninitiated or uneducated wine buyer, but

180
00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:55,720
Speaker 1: fervent vintage wine buyer would have that about four million

181
00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,720
Speaker 1: dollars seller, about a million of it will be on fakes.

182
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,439
Speaker 1: And he supposed at he spent close to five million

183
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:06,920
Speaker 1: dollars on fake wine over the past quarter century, um,

184
00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,120
Speaker 1: including some of those Jefferson's that we'll talk about. Uh.

185
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,120
Speaker 1: And a lot of this wine came from a man

186
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:18,360
Speaker 1: named Rudy Uh Croniawe Oh, that's good stuff. Yeah, it's

187
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,559
Speaker 1: even better than I had in my head. Would you have?

188
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 1: I like that? I think? And this guy was one

189
00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,440
Speaker 1: of the most famous um really alongside another guy that

190
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:37,199
Speaker 1: we'll talk about, one of the most famous wine fraud discs, fraudster, fraudster, counterfeitters,

191
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,439
Speaker 1: counterfeiters of all time. Um. And he was sentenced to

192
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,720
Speaker 1: ten years in prison and supposedly was to pay close

193
00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,560
Speaker 1: to fifty million dollars in damages, which is easily what

194
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,960
Speaker 1: he made by selling fake wine. In two sales in

195
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,559
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, he made thirty six million dollars

196
00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,199
Speaker 1: selling fake wine. What a jerk. And it's easy to

197
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,400
Speaker 1: sit back and the defense team even used this in

198
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,920
Speaker 1: court to say, these are rich guys, like, no harm,

199
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,960
Speaker 1: no foul, who cares very if you're ripping off the rich.

200
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,360
Speaker 1: And I even found myself kind of thinking that. But

201
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, who it's wrong. It's wrong.

202
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,719
Speaker 1: It's wrong. Sure, I mean like I wouldn't do it.

203
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,839
Speaker 1: I wouldn't sell a counterfeit bottle of wine. Yeah, it's wrong,

204
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,199
Speaker 1: it's illegal, and it's it's gross. And just because you're

205
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,080
Speaker 1: ripping off the rich, it's not like he's Robin Hood

206
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,960
Speaker 1: and giving that then to the poor. You know, he

207
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 1: was him. I didn't have the idea that he was

208
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,160
Speaker 1: doing that. Plus Um, Dave Rouse, who wrote this, made

209
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 1: this point, but I take issue with it that ultimately

210
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:48,320
Speaker 1: vintage counterfeit wine fraud affects all wine drinkers because that

211
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,360
Speaker 1: stuff trickles down. I don't think that's true. Because from

212
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 1: reading this UM, there are two really great long form

213
00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,439
Speaker 1: articles that this article was partially based on when was

214
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,080
Speaker 1: in The New Yorker, and one was on Vanity Fair,

215
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 1: and both of them were totally worth reading. Um. But

216
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,640
Speaker 1: just from reading those you get the impression that those

217
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,760
Speaker 1: are two very different worlds, that the world of like

218
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:19,599
Speaker 1: just regular wine appreciation and vintage wine collection form of

219
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,240
Speaker 1: Venn diagram that just barely overlaps, and that one really

220
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,800
Speaker 1: does not affect the economy the economics of the other.

221
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,959
Speaker 1: So if there's a bunch of counterfeit stuff going on

222
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,080
Speaker 1: in the vintage wine world, it probably wouldn't drive up

223
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,840
Speaker 1: prices for the wine that you're buying that's, you know,

224
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,679
Speaker 1: ten years old tops. So I don't think that that's

225
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,080
Speaker 1: necessarily true his point that we all shoulder the burden

226
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 1: that counterfeiters do because these two worlds are so divorced.

227
00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,800
Speaker 1: But even still, like if you were a people are

228
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,600
Speaker 1: losing money and reputations are being built up and lost.

229
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,679
Speaker 1: You know, I get that. All right, Well, let's take

230
00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 1: a little break and we'll come back and uh, we'll

231
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,240
Speaker 1: talk about the two ways that you can generally go

232
00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:24,920
Speaker 1: about trying to fake a wine. All right, we're back.

233
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 1: We're drunk on wine. It's so drunk. I wish what's

234
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:37,080
Speaker 1: your favorite wine? Uh? My favorite wines are big bodied

235
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 1: California cabernets generally, like not a specific like wine maker.

236
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,360
Speaker 1: If that's what you're asking, I'm not gonna like, Yeah,

237
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,520
Speaker 1: there was no wrong answer. Yeah, No, Well what was

238
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 1: that funny? Because it made me think of fat bottom girls,

239
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,240
Speaker 1: that Queen song. Big bodied California. Yeah, it just potts

240
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,040
Speaker 1: in my head and I laughed like a goon. Yeah,

241
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:03,360
Speaker 1: I like really full bodied wines, zim Fidel's and Cabernets. Yeah,

242
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 1: I think California is just they're doing it right. You know.

243
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 1: They say Pa titzeras the Rodney danger field in the

244
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,880
Speaker 1: wine world. I've heard that. So if you're gonna go

245
00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:16,120
Speaker 1: about faking a wine, um you uh, there are two

246
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,240
Speaker 1: things you can do. You can either fake the wine

247
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,400
Speaker 1: inside a real bottle or you can fake the bottle

248
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 1: with real wine. Yeah, and it's all real wine, you know,

249
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,160
Speaker 1: different vintage maybe yeah, but like it could be like

250
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,440
Speaker 1: a really nice nineteen seven wine that you say it's

251
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,280
Speaker 1: actually from nineteen fourteen or even one. I mean like

252
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,480
Speaker 1: it could be within a couple of years. It ends

253
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 1: on whether it was a good year, good point or

254
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,480
Speaker 1: if the if there's a scarcity of it, that kind

255
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 1: of stuff. And actually Bill Cooke makes a pretty good point.

256
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,880
Speaker 1: His whole thing is he wants to have I think

257
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,520
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty years of Lafitte or some some

258
00:15:54,600 --> 00:16:00,240
Speaker 1: house like every single vintage that they released of every

259
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,320
Speaker 1: single variety over the course of a hundred and fifty years,

260
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,720
Speaker 1: which is extremely ambitious. And he said, it's easy to

261
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,840
Speaker 1: get the really prized ones because those are the ones

262
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,440
Speaker 1: that like people saved and all that. He said, it's

263
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 1: the mediocre years that are old that nobody bothered to

264
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,920
Speaker 1: say this, drank and throw away the bottle or or

265
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,520
Speaker 1: just didn't keep it. Those are the ones that he

266
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 1: has the most trouble finding. Or they did skeet shooting.

267
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,200
Speaker 1: They just had the servants stowed up in the air

268
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 1: and then shot him with shotguns. That's what they do.

269
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,840
Speaker 1: Richie Riches. Uh, well, you make a good point too,

270
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,360
Speaker 1: because Colnie Allen, although he dealt in the super high echelon,

271
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 1: he would also take a two bottle of wine and

272
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,280
Speaker 1: fake it to be like a thousand dollar bottle. Yeah,

273
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,480
Speaker 1: he did it both ways. He would he would take

274
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,880
Speaker 1: out he would take an old bottle, legitimate real bottle,

275
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,880
Speaker 1: put in his own mix of wine and cork it

276
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,240
Speaker 1: again and make it look like it had never been open.

277
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,640
Speaker 1: Or like you said, he would take just say a

278
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 1: forty seven Lafitte and mess with the label to make

279
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,480
Speaker 1: it look like a forty one Lafitte, which would be

280
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 1: worth ten times that what the forty seven Lafitte would

281
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,960
Speaker 1: be worth. Right, and clearly, I also want to point

282
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,440
Speaker 1: out Lafitte is obviously the only fancy wine that I'm

283
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,000
Speaker 1: familiar with, because that's my go too. So if you

284
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 1: guys are out there and you're getting the impression that

285
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 1: I know what I'm talking about as far as wine goes,

286
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,880
Speaker 1: you have been duped. Well, you're not a big wine guy.

287
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,120
Speaker 1: You're on record as such. I like wine. I'm I'm

288
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,960
Speaker 1: definitely not a wine guy exactly. Yeah. Uh, And I'm

289
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,920
Speaker 1: not wine guy either. I'm I'm at the very i'm

290
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,639
Speaker 1: wine guy in the their sense of the word. I

291
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,639
Speaker 1: like really good wines. I like going to wineries, but

292
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,320
Speaker 1: I'm certainly no like. I'm not saying I have some

293
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,720
Speaker 1: amazing palette. I can't pick out vanilla notes and things

294
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,880
Speaker 1: like that. I'm just like, man, this tastes really good

295
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 1: for up the bottle of it. And I tend to

296
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,720
Speaker 1: fall into that camp where I'm certain that there are

297
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,280
Speaker 1: people out there, literal tastemakers who can tell the difference

298
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,920
Speaker 1: between wine and I've had had wine that I didn't

299
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,160
Speaker 1: like before, I've had wine that I do like. Um,

300
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,640
Speaker 1: but I fall into the camp where I'm ultimately like

301
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,680
Speaker 1: it's it's whatever you appreciate. It's no hierarchy. There doesn't

302
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 1: need to be. Um, you know, a two thousand dollar

303
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 1: bottle is not necessarily going to taste as good as

304
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,160
Speaker 1: a twenty dollar bottle. That that you The whole thing

305
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 1: is just about individual enjoyment and a kind of snobbery

306
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,560
Speaker 1: associated with it to me just misses the point. Yeah,

307
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,320
Speaker 1: here's my deal is. I can really tell the difference

308
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 1: between what I would consider a cheap wine and like

309
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 1: a decent bottle or a good bottle. But that's where

310
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 1: my taste level max is out. I can't tell the

311
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 1: difference between a two bottle and at bottle. But if

312
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 1: you gave me like a six dollar bottle, you can.

313
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:50,879
Speaker 1: You can taste the difference it's between that and like

314
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: a twenty bottle. Yeah, but even then, if that's what

315
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,760
Speaker 1: you like, that's what you like. I'm not. It's just

316
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 1: not what I want, right, you know. Man, a lot

317
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: of caveats there. So Um. We were talking about Rudy kay, yeah,

318
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 1: and how to how to he faked wines and he

319
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 1: he got real bottles correct in general, and made his

320
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 1: own wine concoctions. Here's what this dude did right to

321
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 1: get to the point where he could even counterfeit. Yes,

322
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,120
Speaker 1: he got his hands on real stuff, and he ran

323
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 1: up some serious, serious bar tabs while he was doing it.

324
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: There's a very um legendary story of him hooking up

325
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 1: with this guy who was the head of wine sales

326
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 1: at a UM, a an auction house called Acker Meryll.

327
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 1: They factor in big time into this guy's ascent and

328
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:50,920
Speaker 1: Rudy Kay's counterfeit ascent, not weddingly necessarily, but they they

329
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,000
Speaker 1: let him used their reputation to build his own. But

330
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: he did it by duping them by throwing like these

331
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,680
Speaker 1: crazy parties at like uhum at um restaurants and having

332
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 1: like two fifty thou dollar tabs, picking up the tab himself.

333
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,080
Speaker 1: But then after everybody left, going to the staff at

334
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 1: the restaurant being like, mail me every single one of

335
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 1: those bottles, and they go, well, okay, it's your wine,

336
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: but that's weird, not enough to make mention of it,

337
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,159
Speaker 1: but it was odd to them. His big thing was

338
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 1: that he did it at the same place over and

339
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,640
Speaker 1: over again, so they did start to notice. But while

340
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 1: he was doing this, he was also collecting wine to

341
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 1: really expensive vintage wine, and there was already a market

342
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 1: for it, but it didn't look anything like the market

343
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 1: that he built almost himself. He drove the value of

344
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 1: vintage wine up, almost singlehandedly by buying up as many

345
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 1: bottles of old stuff as he could. Um. And while

346
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 1: he was doing that, he was building his reputation. He

347
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 1: was making connections, and he was getting his hands on

348
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 1: legitimate wine that he could use to resell now that

349
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 1: the market was up at a higher price, after he

350
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 1: had already consumed it. It say like a party. Yeah.

351
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 1: And one thing he was doing that tipped off some

352
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 1: people early on was um like you were saying. He

353
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: was buying off years of good vintages, great vintages, to

354
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 1: where there was one guy who thinks Jeffrey Troy was

355
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 1: his name. He was a wine merchant, and he said

356
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 1: he was buying these good bottles for French Burgundy, but

357
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 1: they weren't great, they were off years, and it was

358
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 1: just if he was a collector, it was just weird

359
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,120
Speaker 1: to buy these, uh, and to be adamant about buying

360
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 1: these because he could get him for cheaper and fake

361
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 1: them easier exactly, like he could just kind of smudge

362
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 1: the year and all of a sudden it's a much

363
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 1: more expensive vintage. UM. So he's he's driving the market up.

364
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 1: He's buying legitimate wine. Apparently he's taking out loans that

365
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 1: he defaulted on to to build this reputation is um

366
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: and so when the market hits he starts counterfeiting. And

367
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: there was one story that actually was pretty prominent in

368
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 1: the Vanity Fair article where he was apparently confused. He thought,

369
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: and there's no way that any of us would have

370
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: ever thought this, but he thought that a Ponceau close

371
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 1: Saint Denis was the same thing as the Christine ponce

372
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: So close St. Denis. Right, he was way off. So

373
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: it turns out that um, he figured that ponce Uh

374
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 1: made this wine in Burgundy in the forties, because Christine

375
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: ponce So close Aint Denis made this wine in the fourties.

376
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 1: Turns out that the regular Ponceo, the very famous Ponceau family,

377
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: made their close End Denis starting in the eighties. So

378
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: he actually got found out because of this one mistake.

379
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: This led to his unraveling, and he was going to

380
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: auction or sell about like nine bottles of this stuff

381
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: that was overtly counterfeit. It had never existed, which also

382
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 1: said a lot about the collectors at the time too,

383
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,479
Speaker 1: because they were coming and paying for wine that they

384
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: never even heard of. It didn't exist strictly because these

385
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 1: these people were attached to it. Yeah, it's pretty amazing,

386
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 1: it really is. And that's how he was able to

387
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: get away with it for so long because that dinner,

388
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 1: the guy Ponceau himself, um, the guy who was the

389
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: proprietor of the vineyard, showed up at that dinner, flew

390
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: from Paris to I think New York to be at

391
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: the dinner to make sure that they didn't auction off

392
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: those things because he knew they were counterfeit. And Rudy

393
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 1: Kay still was left to just keep going for years

394
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: after that because because of reputations. Well, and like you said,

395
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: he had built up this reputation, which is a big

396
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: part of it. Um, you have to be a true

397
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: con artist. You can't just go in there, uh and say,

398
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: I've got all these Jefferson wines. I'm chuck. You know,

399
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: you have to be known in the community, and it

400
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: takes a long time, and they have to think of

401
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: that right, Yeah, I have to think you have money,

402
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: real money, which he did. No, he borrowed it all. Well,

403
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: I thought he came for money a ruse. Well, he

404
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: had money at one point he borrowed on now, but

405
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: then he made a lot, right, So think about this.

406
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: I think he defaulted on a three or four million

407
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 1: dollar loan, and then another one or two million dollar loan,

408
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 1: and then he also borrowed privately from other like wine

409
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: collectors that he knew. But even still, let's say he

410
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: borrowed ten million dollars that he defaulted, he made tens

411
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: in tens and tens more millions, thirty four million dollars

412
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: in one year just from two sales. Yeah, and he

413
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: currently is appealing his conviction um on the grounds that,

414
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: uh that when when he was arrested, he was arrested

415
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: on his front porch. Then they searched his house and

416
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: they said you can't do that. That they got the

417
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: the search warrant afterward, and he said, well you can't

418
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: do that. There should I should have never been searched.

419
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,719
Speaker 1: And it's looking like they're saying, now you know what

420
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: they had reasonable uh doubt? Uh yeah, exactly. So I

421
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: don't think the appeal is going to go anywhere, but

422
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: this is recently, it's like this year, I think he's

423
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: still appealing. Yeah, but he got ten years right, ten

424
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: years man UM, So he got caught and he got

425
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: caught red hand, red handed. It sounds like UM and

426
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: the people who were attached to him that helped build

427
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 1: up this market definitely suffered uh some dings to their reputation,

428
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: but are saying like, we had no idea, we trusted

429
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: this guy. We were duped too, and UM to their

430
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: to their merit acker meryll Um offered like, uh money

431
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: back guarantees on anything that was considered found to be

432
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 1: fake and and paid up on it after one auction. Well,

433
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: one of the guys Cocu is suing is uh, I

434
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: can't remember his name, but he supposed supposedly he's like,

435
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: I didn't know I was selling you fake wine, like

436
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: I got duped, and he's saying, no, you knew. So

437
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: they were trying to prove whether or not this guy

438
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: actually knew. And so that's that's another part of that

439
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: debate where how widespread is is who knows what UM

440
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: and who's like how far do you go back before

441
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: you find the person who did it right. So we'll

442
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: talk about one other person who allegedly did it right

443
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: after this break. So, Chuck, there's another man, very famous

444
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: man in the wine world. His name is Hardy Hardy

445
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: roden Stock, but I don't believe that's his real name.

446
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: His real name is what mine heart gooka. That's right,

447
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: what a name. That's his given name. But he goes

448
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 1: by Hardy roden Stock and has since the seventies. And

449
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: he to be a truly great wine counterfeitter, not only

450
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: do you have to build up a reputation as rich

451
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: and um willing to crack bottles of ridiculously expensive, um

452
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: historically valuable wine at parties where there's wine critics and

453
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: auctioneers and wine experts, um. But you also have to

454
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: have a certain love for wine. I think Rudy Kay

455
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 1: definitely loved wine. Yes, so they but they all have.

456
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, and Hardy Rodenbach definitely does too. And apparently

457
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: there's there's a big question about whether he is one

458
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: of the better wine mixers on the planet. Yeah, because

459
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: that's that's a real job, where like like someone will

460
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: work at a winery and they'll take a little bit

461
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: of this and a little bit of that and then

462
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you've got there. Yeah, they're they're

463
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: they're blend. Some blends are better than others. Apparently roden

464
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: Stock is a master blender. If he is in fact

465
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: a counterfeiter, this article on how stuff works make it

466
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: makes it sound like built coax hired, FBI gun closed

467
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: the book and like it's done. But it's never been

468
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: proven in a court of law that roden Stock actually,

469
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: um was this counterfeiter and he still denies the allegations. Oh,

470
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: the circumstantial evidence is pretty pretty substantial. Yeah, I mean,

471
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: I think the only reason is because he refuses to

472
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,479
Speaker 1: come to America to go to court. Yeah, you know,

473
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: but there's no criminal prosecution. It's all civil as far

474
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: as I understand. Yeah, I think that's the case. So

475
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: he was a former music manager and um he I

476
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: think they're making him. There's a book called The Billionaires

477
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: Vinegar about this about the Jefferson Wines. Interesting that they're

478
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: making into a movie with McConaughey. Of course. Oh yeah.

479
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: Does he play Bill Coke or Hardy roden Stock. I

480
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: don't know who he's playing, or does he just kind

481
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: of like wander around days in the background, he's the

482
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 1: winemaker man. Uh yeah, I'm not sure who he's playing actually,

483
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: but it was a big book and it was about

484
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: the famous Jefferson wines. And basically the deal is Thomas Jefferson,

485
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: as we all know, was way into wine, way into France. UM,

486
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: a big Francophile, and he had either bottles in his

487
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: collection or he had his own vintage as well. Um,

488
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson wines, and very famously Hardenstock was rooted out allegedly.

489
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: I guess do we have to say that as faking

490
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: these Jefferson bottles. Um, he would force you know, you're

491
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: supposed to spit out when you're drinking wine tasting he

492
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: would he would I don't know about force, but highly

493
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: encourage his guests to swallow so they would be drunker

494
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: by the time he got to the real good stuff

495
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: at the end, which is and again, so it's unusual

496
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: to force your guests to drink rather than spit out

497
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: the wine at a tasting party. And then it's also

498
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: unusual to bring out your best stuff at the end

499
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: because everybody knows your palette is saturated and you can't

500
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: really tell the difference anyway. Well, if you've ever been

501
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: on a wine tour and go to like several wineries,

502
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: you definitely at the last winery, you're like, give me

503
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: a case. Right, is great? Yeah, So when he's throwing

504
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: these parties in these tastings, again he's invited and very

505
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: smart to invite wine experts, wine critics, wine journalists. It's

506
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: an event. It is an event. And again, all these

507
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: people think that this dude is just this eccentric, extraordinarily

508
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: rich dude who is literally opening to drink and share

509
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: with them. He's wonderful. These these people who are peons

510
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: compared to this man. He's such a great man because

511
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: he's opened a seventeen eighties seven bottle of Thomas Jefferson's

512
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: wine and he's given me a glass. I've got to

513
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 1: go right about it. I got to talk about how

514
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: great Hardy roden Stock is. So it's very smart to

515
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,719
Speaker 1: have surrounded himself with the people he did. Yeah. So

516
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: his story was that he said, um, he claimed that

517
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: he found a batch of Jefferson bottles behind a brick

518
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: wall in a Paris Parisian basement that he still hasn't

519
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: revealed where this is a little suspicious. Uh. And then

520
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 1: so if you already got all the wine out of there, Yeah, exactly. Uh.

521
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: And then he and uh he went and sold a

522
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: lot of these two people like Coke and Christopher Forbes

523
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: and other billionaires for um, hundreds of thousands of dollars

524
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: per bottle. And I think they were like about a

525
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty bottle. Yeah, it's a ton of money.

526
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: And um, they were fakes and it was all. It

527
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: all came down to a little matter of punctuation, which

528
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: is hysterical to me that Thomas Jefferson bottles. Um. Well,

529
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: first of all, he kept really meticulous records because he

530
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: was so into wine. J did. Yeah, so on the

531
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: bottles chuck it said, and it was engrave t H period,

532
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: capital J period. Right, Supposedly Jefferson when he wrote his initials,

533
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: it would be T colon capital J period. So that

534
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: fatal flaw of the matter of punctuation is what gave

535
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: him away. Basically. Yeah, well there's a larger question too.

536
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: So the idea that Thomas Jefferson would have his bottles

537
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: engraved was based on a letter, a verified letter. Um.

538
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: It was an order that Jefferson placed for French wine

539
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: on behalf of himself. And George Washington, which makes these

540
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: bottles even more amazingly awesome because they think, well, these

541
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: came from an order that Jefferson placed, that we're also

542
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: in George Washington's shipment as well, and that they they

543
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: they needed to be separated out by initials. But if

544
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: you step back and you think they wouldn't go in

545
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: and grave all the bottles, they just marked the crates

546
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: that the bottles came in. This crate goes to George.

547
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: This crate goes to Jefferson because he was ordering it

548
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: by the case, not by the bottle. So the idea

549
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: that the bottles would be engraved is also dubious in

550
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: and of itself. But Monicello historians are like, number one,

551
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: he this is wrong. The way that this is engraved,

552
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: That's not how he would have done it. And secondly,

553
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: there's no records in all of we have the records

554
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: for this era, and there's nothing in there about these

555
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: vintages being in Monicello or being ordered by Jefferson. And

556
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: then also um, once Bill Coke put his FBI dude

557
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: on the on the case, it turns out that it's

558
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: likely that this this engraving was done by modern instruments. Yeah,

559
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: he hired a guy named an ex fed named Jim

560
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: McElroy or I'm sorry, Jim Elroy. And you know I

561
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: kept on say macail roy too, I guess because of

562
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: the maclroy brothers. So he hired this guy, paid him

563
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: a lot of money, I imagine, to try and do

564
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: some digging on this. And one of their first lines

565
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: of defense was there's something called uh cessium dash one

566
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: thirty seven, and that is UH a radioactive isotope that

567
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: exists because it's a product of nuclear fission of uranium.

568
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: So it didn't exist until we started doing that, before

569
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: we started launching nuclear bomb explosion tests. Yeah, exactly. Uh,

570
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: now it exists, and you can actually test for this stuff,

571
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: so if you find you know, it basically can date

572
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: something back to night. However, in the case of harden Stock,

573
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: he was smart enough at least to use wine older

574
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: than n so that didn't really help him much. Yeah,

575
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: and I wonder if he just surely he just lucked out.

576
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, because I wonder if that Caeson test

577
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 1: was around when he did this, because this he supposedly

578
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: found him in eighty five and started selling him immediately. Yeah,

579
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: who knows. Maybe he got lucky, or maybe he just

580
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: was like, I need to use some really old, nice wine, yeah,

581
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: to at least try and get away with it. So

582
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: again there's like and then there. One other part of

583
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: the case against him was that he had a tenant

584
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 1: once at his family's house who had an apartment near

585
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: his in the house and in the basement, the tenant

586
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: said that he saw like basically tons of empty bottles

587
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: and um stacks of labels and all this stuff, which,

588
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: to the it meant, well, this guy's forging wine. Right,

589
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: that's a little more. That's probably what I would think.

590
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 1: I hope you doesn't go by my recycling every Wednesday

591
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: here a wine counterfeitter, it could be. Uh. So there

592
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: are a lot of there's nothing you can do about

593
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: these these old um I mean, you can have people

594
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,879
Speaker 1: inspect them and try and verify them, but there's really

595
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: nothing you can do as a like a full proof method.

596
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: But really nice wineries now are doing. There are a

597
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: lot of methods you can do now for future generations

598
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: of wine fraud. Yeah, for the vintage stuff you're s

599
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: o l basically, yes, you just have to really trust

600
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: where it's coming from. Probably hire an expert, and um,

601
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: maybe stay away from rodent stock if you're Bill Coke, right,

602
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: that's right. But there Yeah, like you said, the modern

603
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: guys are using things like um R f I D tags,

604
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: um QR codes that you scan and it takes you

605
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: to a website or something. Microchips like you have in

606
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: your doll Yeah, so you can track the actual bottle.

607
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: There's also like tamper proof um capsules, the that the

608
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,479
Speaker 1: wine is encased in the bottle's neck that when that's open,

609
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: it changes color if it's ever been opened, and some

610
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: actually alert the Internet or I guess back home at

611
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: headquarters the Internet once it's been open. And there's another

612
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: one that's pretty cool. There's this company that inserts a

613
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: specific DNA marker into like the ink on the label

614
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: that can't be counterfeit and that they can go back

615
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: and later and be like, no, this is real. At

616
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: the very least, we know the labels real. And Rudy

617
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: case case, he had a bunch of credit card charges

618
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: for glue and labels and ink and he and he

619
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: had a pretty nice trail of evidence behind him. Yeah,

620
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's not very smart with it. Well, I mean,

621
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: if his apartment was just a counterfeiting factor, and then

622
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: lastly checked the one of the pieces of evidence that

623
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: a lot of people point to when they say that

624
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: UM wine fraud is a big deal. UM is eBay. Yeah.

625
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 1: You can go on eBay and spend a hundred bucks

626
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: on a empty bottle that, if it weren't empty, would

627
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: go for a thousand or ten thousand or whatever. And

628
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: the idea behind it, of course, is that somebody's filling

629
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: it up and putting it back on the market as

630
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: a counterfeit. Why would someone sell that that reason to

631
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: make a hundred bucks on a ten tho dollar bottle

632
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: of wine? Some people love money, I don't know. It

633
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: just seems like a lot of just people who buy

634
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: that kind of wine. I don't picture them going on

635
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,439
Speaker 1: eBay and running auctions over it. Makes you wonder also

636
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: if like those are people who they're like, they're just

637
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: working at a restaurant, and well, that's what it sounds

638
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: like to me. You can take that home and put

639
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: it on anybay. The servant throws the uh, you know,

640
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: cleans up after the dinner party. Yeah, that's what I figure.

641
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: What's going on? And apparently a lot of restaurants now

642
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: because of guys like Rudy Kay and uh Hardy Rhodes.

643
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: Rodent Stock now um smash vintage bottles once the wine

644
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: has been ordered and drunk with. Well with the shotgun

645
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: in the skeet shooting, I got one last thing. Supposedly

646
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: there were only five magnums of ninety seven Fleur produced

647
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: uh between two thousand and five and two thousand seven,

648
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: eighteen magnums of ninety seven La Fleur were sold at auction.

649
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: That's so easy to like, how can that happen? That's

650
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: so easy to check when there's only five of something.

651
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: The argument is that either the guy who works at

652
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: La Fleur and did in ninety seven and says no,

653
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: there was only five magnums doesn't remember because the record

654
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: keeping in like Burgundy is terrible back in the day um,

655
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: or that the there's just no will. There's so much

656
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: of a market for counterfeit wine and there's not enough

657
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: pressure being put on the people who are actually selling

658
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,240
Speaker 1: it are allowing it to happen, that it's just whatever.

659
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: And supposedly, now that America has gotten more and more savvy,

660
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: this counterfeit market is moving over to China. So where

661
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: there's like a lot of wealth coming up and not

662
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: a lot of wine education and people are just getting

663
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: taken for rides. Man good stuff. Yeah, this is a

664
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: good one man, good pick. If you want to know

665
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: more about wine fraud, you can type those words in

666
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: the search bar house to works dot com and I

667
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: said search bar should chuck. What is it time for Facebook? Question?

668
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: All right? Sometimes we pool questions from Facebook to answer them.

669
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: So what we're doing now? This is from Diane Martin,

670
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: Diane F. Martin. UH Center podcasts are essentially what would

671
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: be called literature reviews and research lingo. How do you

672
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: decide which references to include an exclude, use any kind

673
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: of quality indicators to this side what you will and

674
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: will include, especially when they're deeply debated. There's a good question. Um,

675
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: we've talked about our research process. I think we tried

676
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: to use peer reviewed journals and what I mean, if

677
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: we find something on the internet, we try and double

678
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: and triple check that information. I know, a big giveaway

679
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: you always talk about as if it's the same exact

680
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: thing printed a bunch, that's usually a sign that it

681
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: could be bogus, like riding a danger field, being in

682
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: the scale and the movie The Scout. Uh, but it

683
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 1: still bears mentioning. Sure, you just have to mention it

684
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: with the caveat. We don't find it credible, but it's

685
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: out there because it doesn't. It exists in some form

686
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 1: of fashion. Uh, scientific journals, medical journals, I mean peer reviewed.

687
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: It's just a great way to go if you can

688
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: get your hands on it. I remember this great article

689
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: called like why is science behind a paywall? About the

690
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: basically the cart the science publishing cartel. But if you

691
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: can get your hands on pure reviewed stuff, that's the

692
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: best stuff to work with. Agreed, go ahead. Another question, Yeah,

693
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: Chuck for me? This from Shane Elliott. I knew I

694
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: think he meant no because question will find a special

695
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: place in Chuck's heart. What are your favorite types and

696
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: kinds of beers? And why do you brew your own beer?

697
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: And somebody else said recently on Twitter that you said

698
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: in the beer episode that you were going to get

699
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: into homebrewing. Did you ever? So that's a two part

700
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: question for you, Chuck from Twitter and Facebook. Well you're

701
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: a beer guy too, I like, I do not brew

702
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: my beer, but on the record, is really liking I

703
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: P A S and o. There's a backlash going on

704
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: now why because there's so many of them, and people

705
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: are like, there's other kinds of beers in the world.

706
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: I pas tastes like soap. I love. I love anything

707
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: that's super hoppy. Yeah, I do. I just that's what

708
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: I like. Our friend Dave dropped by from Sweetwater Sweetwater

709
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: and brought us some hot hash. I haven't tried it yet,

710
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: have you know? But his all that stuff is good.

711
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: Sweetwater does a great job. And we've always both kind

712
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: of agreed that uh uh Sierra Nevada Palele is one

713
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: of the great all time great, but there's so many

714
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: great ones. Bells too hearted. I love man, that might

715
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: be the best ever. Yeah, and that plenty of the

716
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: elder we got sent some of that that was delicious.

717
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: Um Oh here in Athens, Georgia. Creature Comforts tropically have

718
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: not had that one delicious um Orphee is Brewing is

719
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: here in Atlanta, and they make a sour that I

720
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: tried that was really really good. I'm not into the sours.

721
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: Have you tried it sours? Yeah? Yeah, I don't like it.

722
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: I love it now. I don't give it so weird

723
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: that I was like this is kind of good. Yeah,

724
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,959
Speaker 1: it was weird in a good way, because sometimes weird

725
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: can just be novel and you're like, okay, I tried that,

726
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: it's done. This is I mean, I like it. Yeah,

727
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: I don't like wheat beers. Um Belgium whites not a fan.

728
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: All right, there's your it's her fish bowl. Now I'm thirsty,

729
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: Jackson Blig. Other than Atlanta, what are your top five

730
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: favorite cities each? Geez, New York, San Francisco, Seattle. Do

731
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: they have to be American cities? Yeah? Uh in that case,

732
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: then I'll throw in Paris and uh London. Look at me? Well,

733
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: fancy things, I know. Uh, let's see. I love Hiroshima,

734
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: Japan is a really neat city. So is Kyoto. I'm

735
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: gonna make those tied for one though. Of course New York. Um,

736
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: let's see you are? I like DC a lot too. Yeah,

737
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: that's a great time. Um Rome, Italy is surprisingly neat. Surprisingly,

738
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: what are you getting? I mean it's a major cities, yeah,

739
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: and it's packed with people, so you would think like, hey,

740
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: it's a city, sure, but it also has I mean,

741
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: like you just walking along the street and all of

742
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: a sudden you're walking next to like a three thousand

743
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 1: year old wall that's not even part of a museum.

744
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: He just built up around it. Yeah. Did there'd be

745
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: like a fountain on a corner, like somebody's peeing in

746
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: that's a thousand years old. It's it's a very neat

747
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: city in that regard. Um, I like, uh where else? Um,

748
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: that's all I can come up with right now. Oh

749
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't have to go off fancy

750
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: pants like Charleston, South Carolina one of my favorite it's

751
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 1: a great place for food. Savannah. Yeah, I like Charleston.

752
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, they're similar to me. Yeah, Charleston is a

753
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: little more refined, but also a little more modern. Yeah yeah, yeah,

754
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: I don't. It's not fancy pants to like cities overseas, no,

755
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 1: I know. But when once his Paris, you're like, yeah,

756
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: but Paris is awesome. It is. It's a great time

757
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: in London. When's the last time you're in London, like

758
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: twenty years ago? Okay, you should go back because London

759
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: is like a brand new city. There's something to do

760
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: at all times. Now. They have cabs, which was apparently

761
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,479
Speaker 1: like the big thing that changed there. Um, And it's

762
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: just an awesome, little town beautiful. Well maybe we can

763
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 1: go there on a tour. Yes, let's uh, well, that's

764
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: your turn for the question. Uh. This is from Gus M. Parker.

765
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 1: Why did Josh grow his hair? Gus, there's a simple

766
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: answer that that's a good question because I can't because

767
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: I realized that I have hair, and I'm going to

768
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: live it up while I got it. I'm gonna go

769
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 1: with Gary Rickleman. What is the best flavor of pop tart? Hint,

770
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: there was only one correct answer. That's not true, Gary.

771
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: I think what the answer you're looking for is brown

772
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: sugar and cinnamon. It's a good one. There's nothing wrong

773
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: with blueberry or strawberry. Strawberry is really good as frosted

774
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: straws as long as it's frosted. That's the key. Like

775
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: there's another key. And here's a tip for you that

776
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 1: don't mind clogging your arteries. Pop it out of the toaster.

777
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: I know you don't want to get a stick of

778
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 1: butter and rub it on the back of the dry

779
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: side and then around the edges of the other side

780
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: and just thank me later. I have not tried that,

781
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: and I actually heard that before from Jessica Simpson when

782
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: she was pregnant. Oh really, apparently just went berserk on

783
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: the buttered pop tarts. Never heard of that. You got

784
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 1: time for one more? Yeah, we got time for a

785
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: couple of morning This an unusual one from Michael Snively

786
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: or Snoopiley, one of the two, probably Snively. If the

787
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: Bryant and Clark were units of measure, what would they measure? Oh? Man,

788
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: mine would probably oh I know what mine would be

789
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,959
Speaker 1: as some uh sweat level, like units of sweat per

790
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: square inch or something that's a good one. Mine would

791
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 1: measure the distance between any one place and awesome. Oh wow,

792
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: whoa how is that? That's good? Thank you? All right?

793
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: I got one more. Chelsea Hamilton's what's the most rewarding thing?

794
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: That stuff you should know has brought to you or

795
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: allowed you to do. We've done a lot of really

796
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: neat things that were very thankful for. But I'm gonna

797
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,479
Speaker 1: just say the live shows because they're so much fun.

798
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: There are a lot of fun and it's fun to

799
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: go to cities I've never been to, and it's fun

800
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 1: to meet people and get out of this little room. Uh,

801
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: this is very rewarding and very fun. I'm going with

802
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: Chuck s answer at right. Uh well, thanks to everybody

803
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: for those Facebook questions. UM. If you ever want to

804
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 1: get in touch with us on Facebook, you can go

805
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: to Facebook dot com slash Stuff you Should Know. You

806
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: can also tweet to us at s y s K podcast.

807
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: That's our handle. You can send us a good old

808
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: fastioned email to stuff podcast the House, Stuff Works dot

809
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: com and as always, joined us at our home on

810
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: the web. Stuff you Should Know dot com. Stuff you

811
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff

812
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: Works for more podcasts for my heart Radio because at

813
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcas tests, or where ever

814
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. H m hm