WEBVTT - Institutions Won't Save Us 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.520 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Okay f Daily with 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:20.120 Meet your Girl, Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.480 there is not often that there are things that are 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.960 in the news that are good. Right, we marinate and 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:29.000 a lot of misery up in these parts, and so 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:32.760 when something good finally happens, I want to elevate it 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.839 and I want to start with it, which is that 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.159 finally there seems to be somebody that is awake at 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.159 the Department of Justice. Why do I say that, because 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:47.640 the four officers that were involved in the murder of 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:52.519 Brianna Taylor are being charged with federal crimes. It is 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.320 taken way too fucking long to get to this place 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.760 to arrest the officers that would storm into Brianna Taylor's home. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.080 I have so many I got Brittany Grinder coming up 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.160 in my mind. I got Brianna Taylor in my head. 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:13.039 But with Brianna, people were in the streets. People have 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:17.479 been in the streets, people have been asking, begging, fighting 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.679 for those officers that would barge into her home, break 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:23.800 into her home in the middle of the night while 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.320 she was sleeping, and kill her in her sleep. Right, 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.280 we watch the trial where it was, oh, no one's 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:35.440 at fault here. Police just get to walk in, kill somebody, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.160 walk out, and no one is held accountable. Yes, the 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.840 family did receive millions of dollars in her settlement, but 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:45.720 what does that do when your twenty something year old 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.600 daughter is murdered in her sleep for no other reason 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:51.120 than what being in the right place at the wrong time, 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.960 and again, no fucking accountability. Well, the Department of Justice 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.480 has finally stepped in and the Department of Justice has 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.720 finally brought charges against the four officers that were involved 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:09.120 in her murder. Several of them were dismissed, and they 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.480 were dismissed back in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:15.680 from the force. But we know what happens in this 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.520 blue fraternity is that you know, you can kill somebody 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.920 in one town, one state, and get to go and 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.000 move over to the next place and kill some more people. Right, 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:29.960 That's how it works. And so the federal government finally 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:35.160 deciding to bring charges after a long, long aggravated weight 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.560 is something that I will applaud and we will continue 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:42.800 to watch and see what happens. But this is what 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.880 accountability looks like, I just wish it came quicker speaking 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:51.880 of accountability Alex Jones's piece of shit ass and his 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.760 stupid fucking lawyers. But I don't know if they're stupid 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.600 or they were just sending over all of the contents 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:59.880 of his phone over the last two years to a 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.440 posting counsel because they were then going to try and 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.720 push for a mistrial, or they are really that dumb. 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.360 But after about I think a little over an hour 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:16.640 of deliberation, they the jury has come back with four 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:22.040 million dollars so far in damages for the family that 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:26.120 brought Alex Jones to trial. And let me say this, 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.600 Sandy Hook happened ten years ago, so I just like 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:40.400 their child that Alex Jones and all of the children 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:47.000 of Sandy Hook would be teenagers now, They would be 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.400 in high school now, and this man is only now 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:58.080 going to trial for years of fucking lies, conspiracy theories 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:02.440 putting their lives at steak because of his rabid, fucking 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:09.640 hopped up KKK bullshit white supremacy, white frail male base 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.760 that would take his words and go and try and 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:20.120 attack those families. So far, four million dollars they're asking 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.840 for a hundred and fifty million, and we will see 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:25.680 what this sum total comes out to. But I gotta 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:27.760 say this, and I said this on Twitter the other day. 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.360 Do you know that that motherfucker is making eight hundred 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:39.840 thousand dollars a day selling tubs of survival food and 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:45.800 like gun paraphernalia. Who knew that white supremacy and male 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:51.840 fragility were so fucking lucrative? My god, did I go 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.560 into the wrong line of work when all I had 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.800 to do was slap a sticker on this on a 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.560 tub of Kraft macaroni and cheese and say that it's 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:04.080 survival food and sell it to a bunch of idiots 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:09.159 hunkered down in their like gun sheds. I had no idea. 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:15.039 Now to terrible news, which is that of Britney Griner. 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:20.200 Britney Griner was found guilty in the sham trial that 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.480 Russia put together and sentenced her to nine years in 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:28.160 prison with criminal intent because sure, you have remnants of 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:33.400 marijuana in a vape that you have a prescription for 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:38.320 from a doctor, and that's criminal intent. I mean, Russia 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.520 is a fucking terrorist state, and I just wish that 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:46.960 they were pulled out of every single fucking G seven, 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.400 G eight, every single type of group, like, can we 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.760 just stop legitimizing the country of Russia? Can we stop 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:57.920 legitimizing Putin? Can we just give them whatever fucking criminals 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.960 they want back so that we can get our people home? 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:03.760 Can we stop with the bullshit like we think that 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.279 we're punishing Russia for something and just give them whatever 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.240 prisoners they want in exchange for the Americans that they're 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.800 holding hostage. Right, And you know, I'll say this that 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:19.640 there was an artist who said after they heard the 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.080 sentencing come down, that said, you know, I guarantee you 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.880 that if this were Taylor fucking Swift, if this were 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:31.039 you know, any white NFL star, or white NBA star 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.520 or a white superstar, that America would have done more 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.360 right from the fucking jump. There would have been campaigns, 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:40.920 and there would have been this, that and the other thing. 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.560 But for Brittany Griner, for some reason, we were all 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.440 told not to march, to stay silent, and that oh 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.919 America was going to do the work. But it wasn't 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:53.719 until people got in the streets and kept putting her 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.880 name in their mouths. Did this federal government, did this 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.320 administration decide to act so you know what I will 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:04.600 tell people is that like this is not fucking done right. 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.360 And I heeded the initial warnings of you know, we'll 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:10.960 do more harm than good than bring attention to this 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:16.440 fuck that Britney Grinder should be home, right, Britney Griner 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.640 should not be a fucking hostage of Russia on some 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.000 trumped up bullshit. As a matter of fact, Britney Grinder 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:23.680 should have never had to go to Russia in the 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.400 first fucking place to play ball in the offseason to 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.000 be able to provide for her family because the w 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.840 NBA should be paying on par what the fucking NBA pays. 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:37.720 How about women deserve to be paid the same. And 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.600 I know that the Women Soccer League just fucking won 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:47.160 their case, right, the same case that Serena Williams and 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:52.560 Venus Williams brought against Tennis. If Britty Griner had been 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:58.320 treated like the NBA players, she wouldn't have been fucking abroad. 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.080 This case makes me sick. It makes me sick to 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.760 my stomach to think about a black, queer woman being 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:12.240 held in fucking Russia, in a country that hates black 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:17.720 people and hates gay people, and she embodies both. So 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.880 if you are a praying person, please pray for her. 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.520 If you are a person that will call your representatives 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.080 and say that you want pressure right on this fucking 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.520 administration to do everything and anything that they can, please 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:38.480 do that this should have never come to pass. My 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:48.640 heart is broken for her and her family, and I 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:52.920 hope that years will not pass before Brittany's body and 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:59.360 mind is broken by this barbaric, fucking country, before she's 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:03.880 able to come home. Coming up next, my Dear friends, 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:08.400 is a conversation that I think is really interesting with 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:12.079 a Kaivan Stroff, who we've had on the show before 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:19.520 and has done a capstone research project at Harvard on 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:23.880 what he deems as the trifecta that is happening in 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:28.640 journalism and modern media right now and where the breakdown 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:34.400 has come in terms of the Fourth Estate turning into 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:38.120 nothing more than reality TV filled with stars that want 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.920 to line their own pockets. So we get in to 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:49.560 that conversation with our friend Kaivan Stroff. Coming up next, Hey, 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:53.280 I'm David. Plots of Slaves Political Gabfest. As another election 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.040 season accelerates, it can be tricky to sort through all 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.880 the noise and the news Each week on The gap Fest, 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.400 John Dickerson, Emily Bathlon and I decipher the headlines, break 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.640 down the races, and tell you what issues really matter. 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.480 We do not always agree, We definitely do not always agree, 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.760 but we always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.720 a good time. So subscribe to Slate's Political Gapfest. New 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:22.160 episodes every Thursday. Get up behind the scenes look at 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.120 Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.320 original podcast from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.959 host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.920 and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.120 use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to gun 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.240 laws and take a closer look at how and why 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.840 these topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from The 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.320 Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:52.120 or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday. Folks. 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.360 I am very happy to welcome back to Woke f 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:01.920 Daily Kivan Schroff, who is a Democratic commentator and has 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:06.800 done an amazing Capstone. I believe it's at Harvard, so 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:14.000 no dummy here on the trifecta of bad incentives facing 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:18.080 modern journalism. And I think that it's such a wonderful 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.800 time to have this conversation because the question that I 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.400 keep asking is has anybody learned anything over the last 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.280 four years? Did anybody learn anything during the Trump era? 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.920 So Kivan talked to talk to us about this capstone 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.360 and why you decided to make this the topic. Absolutely So. 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.240 I was in on a joint law and policy program 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.480 at Harvard, and our challenge was to pick an extensive 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.080 research topic that posed a public problem today, and I 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.040 couldn't think of a more appropriate topic. I personally do 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.319 a lot on social media on Twitter, getting into TikTok 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.440 as I know you are as well, Yes, And I 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.080 think one thing that we've seen just as sort of 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:02.520 there's been public backlash in the market when certain businesses, 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:06.400 you know, engage in unethical, inappropriate behaviors, because consumers have 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.360 finally learned the power that they have together when they 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.520 organize like that on Twitter to boycott or something like that. 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.679 There's also been similar backlash two journalists who have really 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.120 dropped the ball in these recent years, again and again 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.760 and again. And I think at first there was this 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.880 question of whether it was out of incompetence or a 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.320 lack of ability. I mean, I do think there's a 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.120 people problem, for sure, but I think that there's also 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.320 a structural problem where the incentives facing journalists today have 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:40.880 totally shifted priorities away from truthtelling and informing the American 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:46.319 people and to these three you know, overarching incentives that 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.840 I call it the trifecta of bad incentives, and that 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.400 is social media, fame, cable news hits, and book deals, 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.120 and all three of those incentives work together to sort 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.880 of push first of all, to draw people into the 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.640 profession that are more interested in being an influencer and 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:06.480 a journalist, and then to in really problematic behaviors, I think, 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.560 to achieve those ends at the cost of truth telling 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:14.320 and sort of maintaining a reputation with the public. Um. 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:16.960 So that is sort of the you know, the project, 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.480 it's it's it's all, you know, because when you think 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.880 about journalism, right, like the advent of journalism and the 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.520 importance behind it is that it was considered the fourth estate, right, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.120 it was considered you know, this this um this through 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:36.359 way for the American people to be able to understand 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.040 better the world around them, how their government works, how 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:43.240 society works, and their function within and what has happened 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.080 right by virtue And I remember doing a podcast about this, 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:51.320 like I would say probably eight years ago where I was, 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.840 I would know maybe ten years ago. I was watching 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.400 the rise of reality TV and at the same time 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:01.920 watching the shift that was happening with news, right, and 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.319 I said, there is there isn't going to be this 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:10.880 clear divide anymore between this reality TV antics, right, and 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.840 what is supposed to be actual news, what is supposed 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.200 to be journalism. And so did you see that confluence 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.760 as well, like with how how we see TV these 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.880 days and caricatures of people one hundred percent? And I 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:26.880 think last time I was on the show, I was mentioning, 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:28.880 you know, I think like I looked to platforms like 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.080 RuPaul's Drag Race and The Housewives and all those reality 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:36.240 shows are absolutely sort of leading on how to effectively 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.000 build an audience and communicate and you can use those 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.960 tools for good and evil, And we're seeing it done, 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.680 you know, for evil by a lot on sort certainly 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.800 the right. But I think also we're seeing journalists engage 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.680 like this and Taylor Lawrence, who's like a prominent reporter 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.160 at the Washington Post that covers influencers has said, you 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.840 know that her she sees media headed to be much 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.560 more distributed personalities instead of sort of these mainstream networks 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.360 that we're so used to. But what comes with that 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.960 is a whole lot of subjectivity that you know, sort 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.560 of obscures objective fact and truthfulness. And I think what 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.520 we're seeing from mainstream prominent journalists is that they are 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.040 accelerating us to that outcome way before we are ready 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:19.080 for it, you know, And I think so on social 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.840 media prong of this trifecta, there's three behaviors that I 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.120 think we see, and you know, anyone that's online, I 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.760 think can identify at least one or two prominent reporters 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.920 that stand out. But there's hundreds of people engaging this way, right, 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.480 So there's the blurring of lines between professional and personal 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.840 social media, which makes sense because a lot of times 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.200 these reporters are verified because they're a New York Times reporter, 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.520 they have hundreds of thousand followers because of their role, 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.080 and then they're pivoting to tweet every take that would 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.480 never get by an editor that they have no experience 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.680 or background to be commenting on, but it's sort of 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.760 elevated because it's on this larger platform with hundreds of 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.360 thousands of followers that people are following for the news, 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.360 not for Dave Whitegel's you know, racist jokes or you know, 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.120 bad food takes, those types of things. I think, you know, 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.280 that was one episode that stands out, but everybody seeing 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.080 that every week we're seeing, whether it's a Maggie Habermid 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.120 episode or Dave white Gel or you know, I'm sure 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.520 you know more conservative people felt that way about Jim Acosta, 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:21.080 but every day we're seeing these media figures center themselves 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.760 instead of just focus on communicating important information to the 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.600 American people. That's one. Then two right, there's this direct 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.520 backlash between journalists that get called out then by people 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.720 like you and me and regular news consumers, and then 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.680 they're fighting in public suddenly with people that are supposed to, 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.320 you know, the next day read their recording and feel 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:46.680 its subjective and trustworthy and truthful, and it's it's incredibly unprofessional. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.800 But again it's it's moving us faster on that timeline 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:54.440 towards partisan news. And then finally, you know, I think 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.160 we all see different reporters try to go viral. I 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:58.640 don't know if this has happened to you, but I've 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:00.360 had a lot of people, you know, try to DM 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.000 me their stories and things like that, which, again, like, 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.440 if it's good work, I'm happy to amplify it. I'm 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.160 on Twitter all days, so I'm seeing it. But there 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.960 is that sort of questionable issue of blake. Why are 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.520 journalists in the dms of you know, social media people 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.199 asking them to plug their reporting it again, it creates 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.920 a perverse incentive there when you're then going to cover 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:23.440 that person or something like that. So you know, it's 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:28.720 funny because for me, you know, people have always confused 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.600 me and said that I was a journalist and I'm not, right, Like, 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.800 I'm actually very clear about the fact that I did 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.200 not go to school for journalism. I'm not a journalist. 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.120 I'm actually an opinionator. And there is a difference, right 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.400 Like I come from a place that is not neutral, 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:45.879 right Like, I come from a place that is and 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.879 I and I try for the people that listen to me, 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.959 that read, you know, my work, like I try and 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.920 make that very clear, like um, because I want folks 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.760 to understand that there is a line there was a 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:03.680 line anyway between what it was considered opinions, right, like 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.400 you being asked to write a piece from your vantage 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.040 point versus somebody who is employed by a Washington Post 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.879 in New York Times where they're not employed as an 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.919 opinion writer, they're employed as a reporter. And that you know, 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.520 so I just want you again for folks who are 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:24.960 not necessarily in the minutia to understand the distinctions between 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.240 those things. Yeah, and then you know, sort of so 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.240 the next player, of course, and these all sort of 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.199 operate together, but the order doesn't really matter. Is you 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:34.920 want to have a lot of social media followers because 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:36.880 that's going to get you on cable news and get 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:38.439 you a book deal, which a lot of these journalists 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:40.560 want a book deal. That's like considered sort of like 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.600 you know, a major career goal. And especially when you 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.280 go to the White House Press Corps and you know, 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.640 you're sort of immediately incentivized to create this reality television 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.320 as you noted, because the minute you do that, you're 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.280 going to be covered across network news. They might invite 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.320 you on a show to talk about the viral moment. 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.920 And so again, you know what in the Trump era, 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.280 it's a little hard to disaggregate what was appropriate journalism 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.080 standing up to a really corrupt leader. And there were 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.919 some great moments, really brave moments from journalists. But you know, 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.760 then we see under Biden somebody like you know, do 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:17.600 Sye there, who's literally just exists to troll, create viral moments, 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.280 get Twitter traction, and I saw, like really concerning there's 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.280 a lot of buy it, I think across the industry 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.119 from this approach. Eric Wempel, who's you know again, a 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.399 prominent media critic for The Washington Post, basically said of 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.439 Doucy's trolling, you know, that's his job to get, you know, 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.080 to elicit sort of anger and reaction from President Biden. 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.600 And I actually just fundamentally disagree. I don't think that 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.560 the American people are sitting there watching these sort of 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.840 exchanges hoping for drama that you have reality TV if 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.560 you want to watch that. People want rectation, and so 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.560 the incentive to go fight with Biden or catch him 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.800 off guard, or you know, any leader that's not actually 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.800 prioritizing truth, you know, asking those follow up questions they 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:00.679 never seem to ask to any buddy when they come 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.280 on their show that's about truth seeking, you know, So 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.320 I think that's another incentive. And then, of course the 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.840 book deals as we've all seen, not only is there 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.440 the issue of self promotion, where if I'm following Jake 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:14.720 Chapper because I want to know breaking news because he 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.080 has special access, then I got to see him plug 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.520 his book every fifth tweet, like or plug a Collie's book, right, 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.359 Like that's like, that's sort of a perverse incentive because 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.680 we know, as we just default know that salespeople are 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.040 not objective, and we want our journalists to be objective. 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.280 So if you're hawking a book to me every five seconds, 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:34.760 of course I'm going to think, well, maybe you're, you know, 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.520 positioning yourself whether on what you cover or how you 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.719 cover it, to sell this book more than you know, 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.320 to tell the truth to the American people. And because 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.800 again these things are all interrelated, we see people saving 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.000 those scoops, whether it's Maggie Haberman or Bob Woodwork or 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.120 you know those two New York Times. Oh yeah, Mark right, right, 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:56.160 Bob Boardward couldn't let us all know about COVID, right, 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.520 And what Donald Trump had said about COVID in December 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:03.359 twenty nineteen when he was interviewing him for his book Fear, 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:06.600 but he would hold that information when Donald Trump told him, oh, 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.440 this is some really bad stuff. It's worse than the flu. 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:13.320 It's airborne, and he would hold that until he was 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.200 ready to release his book months. I mean literally, it's 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.720 not too dramatic to say life's gonna you know, been 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:23.639 saved because of that. Yeah. Absolutely, And again like why 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:25.240 are they doing that? Because you need to have something 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.560 newsworthy so that when you go on cable news months 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.159 later after you submitted your book, you have something that 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.080 you know is going to drive the news cycle because 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:34.680 even though not that many people are watching cable news relatively, 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:36.720 that is still what drives a lot of book sales. 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.680 So it's all related, and again it's not part of 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.920 that puzzle is informing the American people, you know, at 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:46.840 this crisis moment for democracy and a crisis moment of 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.280 course relatedly for the media industry, which you know, I 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.840 think is sort of imploding. We're seeing. So so let 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.320 me let me ask you this because it's something that 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.680 I find that I have found very troubling throughout my 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.600 career in media, which is, you know, we look at 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:07.000 the types of stories, and I'm particularly talking about cable 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:08.720 news right now, So we look at the type of 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:11.520 stories that make it into segments, that make it into shows, 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:15.720 and you know, I know by virtue of being inside 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:19.000 these places that these newsrooms do not look like me right, 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:24.200 that they are filled still still just sprinklings of people 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:29.880 of color and sprinkling of women or non binary folks 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.480 like as sprinkling, it is mostly still white men that 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.880 get to make new decisions. And because they come from 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:40.600 this vantage point though of quote unquote neutrality, there has 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:46.399 been this discrimination towards people of color, towards queer people, 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:50.520 towards women, about us not being able to be quote 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:54.760 unquote neutral or objective because we embody some of the 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:59.600 same demographics as the stories that we're covering. What do 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:03.159 you say to that, Because to me, I'm like, there's 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:07.960 a difference between being objective, being neutral, right, and also 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:11.200 just being honest. And the fact that white men have 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:14.840 always been the ones to have been said are the 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:18.199 ones that can be neutral absolutely, So it's such a 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:20.560 good point, and I think, like to your point, you know, 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:24.080 people that defend the status quo often like to you know, 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:26.760 sort of do that under the guise of being neutral. 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.920 But the status quo is not neutral. It has all 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.440 the history behind it, right that led up to that moment, 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:34.800 to all the points you just made. I think one 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:37.119 interesting thing. So in my research, I sort of started 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:39.000 off with a deep dive into the history of journalism 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:41.240 in America and you know, trace it to how we 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.159 got to this moment, and what you bring up comes 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:47.320 up in sort of you know, recent decades of journalists 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:50.200 understanding the pitfalls of you know, it's impossible to actually 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:52.399 be objective, and of course you're coming from a perspective, 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.640 and often that perspective we know is you know, disproportionately 0:23:55.680 --> 0:23:59.160 white and male. Um. But that doesn't mean that we 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.680 throw out the project of objective truth telling all together, 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:05.680 because I think the added value the journalists should be 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:09.040 bringing is not They're sort of subjective. This is my 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:12.399