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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Okay f Daily with

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Speaker 1: Meet your Girl, Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,

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Speaker 1: there is not often that there are things that are

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Speaker 1: in the news that are good. Right, we marinate and

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Speaker 1: a lot of misery up in these parts, and so

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Speaker 1: when something good finally happens, I want to elevate it

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Speaker 1: and I want to start with it, which is that

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Speaker 1: finally there seems to be somebody that is awake at

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Speaker 1: the Department of Justice. Why do I say that, because

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Speaker 1: the four officers that were involved in the murder of

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Speaker 1: Brianna Taylor are being charged with federal crimes. It is

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Speaker 1: taken way too fucking long to get to this place

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Speaker 1: to arrest the officers that would storm into Brianna Taylor's home.

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Speaker 1: I have so many I got Brittany Grinder coming up

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Speaker 1: in my mind. I got Brianna Taylor in my head.

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Speaker 1: But with Brianna, people were in the streets. People have

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Speaker 1: been in the streets, people have been asking, begging, fighting

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Speaker 1: for those officers that would barge into her home, break

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Speaker 1: into her home in the middle of the night while

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Speaker 1: she was sleeping, and kill her in her sleep. Right,

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Speaker 1: we watch the trial where it was, oh, no one's

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Speaker 1: at fault here. Police just get to walk in, kill somebody,

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Speaker 1: walk out, and no one is held accountable. Yes, the

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Speaker 1: family did receive millions of dollars in her settlement, but

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Speaker 1: what does that do when your twenty something year old

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Speaker 1: daughter is murdered in her sleep for no other reason

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Speaker 1: than what being in the right place at the wrong time,

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Speaker 1: and again, no fucking accountability. Well, the Department of Justice

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Speaker 1: has finally stepped in and the Department of Justice has

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Speaker 1: finally brought charges against the four officers that were involved

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Speaker 1: in her murder. Several of them were dismissed, and they

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Speaker 1: were dismissed back in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one

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Speaker 1: from the force. But we know what happens in this

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Speaker 1: blue fraternity is that you know, you can kill somebody

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Speaker 1: in one town, one state, and get to go and

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Speaker 1: move over to the next place and kill some more people. Right,

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Speaker 1: That's how it works. And so the federal government finally

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Speaker 1: deciding to bring charges after a long, long aggravated weight

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Speaker 1: is something that I will applaud and we will continue

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Speaker 1: to watch and see what happens. But this is what

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Speaker 1: accountability looks like, I just wish it came quicker speaking

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Speaker 1: of accountability Alex Jones's piece of shit ass and his

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Speaker 1: stupid fucking lawyers. But I don't know if they're stupid

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Speaker 1: or they were just sending over all of the contents

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Speaker 1: of his phone over the last two years to a

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Speaker 1: posting counsel because they were then going to try and

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Speaker 1: push for a mistrial, or they are really that dumb.

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Speaker 1: But after about I think a little over an hour

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Speaker 1: of deliberation, they the jury has come back with four

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Speaker 1: million dollars so far in damages for the family that

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Speaker 1: brought Alex Jones to trial. And let me say this,

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Speaker 1: Sandy Hook happened ten years ago, so I just like

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Speaker 1: their child that Alex Jones and all of the children

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Speaker 1: of Sandy Hook would be teenagers now, They would be

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Speaker 1: in high school now, and this man is only now

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Speaker 1: going to trial for years of fucking lies, conspiracy theories

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Speaker 1: putting their lives at steak because of his rabid, fucking

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Speaker 1: hopped up KKK bullshit white supremacy, white frail male base

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Speaker 1: that would take his words and go and try and

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Speaker 1: attack those families. So far, four million dollars they're asking

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Speaker 1: for a hundred and fifty million, and we will see

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Speaker 1: what this sum total comes out to. But I gotta

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Speaker 1: say this, and I said this on Twitter the other day.

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Speaker 1: Do you know that that motherfucker is making eight hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a day selling tubs of survival food and

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Speaker 1: like gun paraphernalia. Who knew that white supremacy and male

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Speaker 1: fragility were so fucking lucrative? My god, did I go

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Speaker 1: into the wrong line of work when all I had

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Speaker 1: to do was slap a sticker on this on a

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Speaker 1: tub of Kraft macaroni and cheese and say that it's

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Speaker 1: survival food and sell it to a bunch of idiots

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Speaker 1: hunkered down in their like gun sheds. I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: Now to terrible news, which is that of Britney Griner.

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Speaker 1: Britney Griner was found guilty in the sham trial that

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Speaker 1: Russia put together and sentenced her to nine years in

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Speaker 1: prison with criminal intent because sure, you have remnants of

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Speaker 1: marijuana in a vape that you have a prescription for

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Speaker 1: from a doctor, and that's criminal intent. I mean, Russia

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Speaker 1: is a fucking terrorist state, and I just wish that

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Speaker 1: they were pulled out of every single fucking G seven,

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Speaker 1: G eight, every single type of group, like, can we

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Speaker 1: just stop legitimizing the country of Russia? Can we stop

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Speaker 1: legitimizing Putin? Can we just give them whatever fucking criminals

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Speaker 1: they want back so that we can get our people home?

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Speaker 1: Can we stop with the bullshit like we think that

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Speaker 1: we're punishing Russia for something and just give them whatever

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Speaker 1: prisoners they want in exchange for the Americans that they're

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Speaker 1: holding hostage. Right, And you know, I'll say this that

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Speaker 1: there was an artist who said after they heard the

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Speaker 1: sentencing come down, that said, you know, I guarantee you

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Speaker 1: that if this were Taylor fucking Swift, if this were

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Speaker 1: you know, any white NFL star, or white NBA star

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Speaker 1: or a white superstar, that America would have done more

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Speaker 1: right from the fucking jump. There would have been campaigns,

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Speaker 1: and there would have been this, that and the other thing.

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Speaker 1: But for Brittany Griner, for some reason, we were all

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Speaker 1: told not to march, to stay silent, and that oh

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Speaker 1: America was going to do the work. But it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until people got in the streets and kept putting her

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Speaker 1: name in their mouths. Did this federal government, did this

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Speaker 1: administration decide to act so you know what I will

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Speaker 1: tell people is that like this is not fucking done right.

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Speaker 1: And I heeded the initial warnings of you know, we'll

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Speaker 1: do more harm than good than bring attention to this

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Speaker 1: fuck that Britney Grinder should be home, right, Britney Griner

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Speaker 1: should not be a fucking hostage of Russia on some

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Speaker 1: trumped up bullshit. As a matter of fact, Britney Grinder

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Speaker 1: should have never had to go to Russia in the

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Speaker 1: first fucking place to play ball in the offseason to

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Speaker 1: be able to provide for her family because the w

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Speaker 1: NBA should be paying on par what the fucking NBA pays.

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Speaker 1: How about women deserve to be paid the same. And

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Speaker 1: I know that the Women Soccer League just fucking won

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Speaker 1: their case, right, the same case that Serena Williams and

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Speaker 1: Venus Williams brought against Tennis. If Britty Griner had been

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Speaker 1: treated like the NBA players, she wouldn't have been fucking abroad.

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Speaker 1: This case makes me sick. It makes me sick to

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Speaker 1: my stomach to think about a black, queer woman being

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Speaker 1: held in fucking Russia, in a country that hates black

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Speaker 1: people and hates gay people, and she embodies both. So

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Speaker 1: if you are a praying person, please pray for her.

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Speaker 1: If you are a person that will call your representatives

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Speaker 1: and say that you want pressure right on this fucking

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Speaker 1: administration to do everything and anything that they can, please

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Speaker 1: do that this should have never come to pass. My

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Speaker 1: heart is broken for her and her family, and I

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Speaker 1: hope that years will not pass before Brittany's body and

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Speaker 1: mind is broken by this barbaric, fucking country, before she's

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Speaker 1: able to come home. Coming up next, my Dear friends,

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Speaker 1: is a conversation that I think is really interesting with

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Speaker 1: a Kaivan Stroff, who we've had on the show before

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Speaker 1: and has done a capstone research project at Harvard on

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Speaker 1: what he deems as the trifecta that is happening in

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Speaker 1: journalism and modern media right now and where the breakdown

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Speaker 1: has come in terms of the Fourth Estate turning into

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Speaker 1: nothing more than reality TV filled with stars that want

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Speaker 1: to line their own pockets. So we get in to

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Speaker 1: that conversation with our friend Kaivan Stroff. Coming up next, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm David. Plots of Slaves Political Gabfest. As another election

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Speaker 1: season accelerates, it can be tricky to sort through all

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Speaker 1: the noise and the news Each week on The gap Fest,

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Speaker 1: John Dickerson, Emily Bathlon and I decipher the headlines, break

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Speaker 1: down the races, and tell you what issues really matter.

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Speaker 1: We do not always agree, We definitely do not always agree,

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Speaker 1: but we always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have

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Speaker 1: a good time. So subscribe to Slate's Political Gapfest. New

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Speaker 1: episodes every Thursday. Get up behind the scenes look at

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Speaker 1: Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an

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Speaker 1: original podcast from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week,

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Speaker 1: host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests

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Speaker 1: and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they

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Speaker 1: use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to gun

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Speaker 1: laws and take a closer look at how and why

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Speaker 1: these topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from The

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Speaker 1: Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday. Folks.

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Speaker 1: I am very happy to welcome back to Woke f

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Speaker 1: Daily Kivan Schroff, who is a Democratic commentator and has

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Speaker 1: done an amazing Capstone. I believe it's at Harvard, so

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Speaker 1: no dummy here on the trifecta of bad incentives facing

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Speaker 1: modern journalism. And I think that it's such a wonderful

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Speaker 1: time to have this conversation because the question that I

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Speaker 1: keep asking is has anybody learned anything over the last

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Speaker 1: four years? Did anybody learn anything during the Trump era?

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Speaker 1: So Kivan talked to talk to us about this capstone

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Speaker 1: and why you decided to make this the topic. Absolutely So.

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Speaker 1: I was in on a joint law and policy program

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Speaker 1: at Harvard, and our challenge was to pick an extensive

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Speaker 1: research topic that posed a public problem today, and I

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Speaker 1: couldn't think of a more appropriate topic. I personally do

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Speaker 1: a lot on social media on Twitter, getting into TikTok

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Speaker 1: as I know you are as well, Yes, And I

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Speaker 1: think one thing that we've seen just as sort of

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Speaker 1: there's been public backlash in the market when certain businesses,

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Speaker 1: you know, engage in unethical, inappropriate behaviors, because consumers have

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Speaker 1: finally learned the power that they have together when they

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Speaker 1: organize like that on Twitter to boycott or something like that.

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Speaker 1: There's also been similar backlash two journalists who have really

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Speaker 1: dropped the ball in these recent years, again and again

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Speaker 1: and again. And I think at first there was this

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Speaker 1: question of whether it was out of incompetence or a

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Speaker 1: lack of ability. I mean, I do think there's a

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Speaker 1: people problem, for sure, but I think that there's also

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Speaker 1: a structural problem where the incentives facing journalists today have

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Speaker 1: totally shifted priorities away from truthtelling and informing the American

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Speaker 1: people and to these three you know, overarching incentives that

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Speaker 1: I call it the trifecta of bad incentives, and that

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Speaker 1: is social media, fame, cable news hits, and book deals,

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Speaker 1: and all three of those incentives work together to sort

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Speaker 1: of push first of all, to draw people into the

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Speaker 1: profession that are more interested in being an influencer and

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Speaker 1: a journalist, and then to in really problematic behaviors, I think,

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Speaker 1: to achieve those ends at the cost of truth telling

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Speaker 1: and sort of maintaining a reputation with the public. Um.

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Speaker 1: So that is sort of the you know, the project,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's all, you know, because when you think

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Speaker 1: about journalism, right, like the advent of journalism and the

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Speaker 1: importance behind it is that it was considered the fourth estate, right,

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Speaker 1: it was considered you know, this this um this through

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Speaker 1: way for the American people to be able to understand

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Speaker 1: better the world around them, how their government works, how

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Speaker 1: society works, and their function within and what has happened

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Speaker 1: right by virtue And I remember doing a podcast about this,

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Speaker 1: like I would say probably eight years ago where I was,

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Speaker 1: I would know maybe ten years ago. I was watching

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Speaker 1: the rise of reality TV and at the same time

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Speaker 1: watching the shift that was happening with news, right, and

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Speaker 1: I said, there is there isn't going to be this

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Speaker 1: clear divide anymore between this reality TV antics, right, and

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Speaker 1: what is supposed to be actual news, what is supposed

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Speaker 1: to be journalism. And so did you see that confluence

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Speaker 1: as well, like with how how we see TV these

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Speaker 1: days and caricatures of people one hundred percent? And I

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Speaker 1: think last time I was on the show, I was mentioning,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think like I looked to platforms like

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Speaker 1: RuPaul's Drag Race and The Housewives and all those reality

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Speaker 1: shows are absolutely sort of leading on how to effectively

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Speaker 1: build an audience and communicate and you can use those

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Speaker 1: tools for good and evil, And we're seeing it done,

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Speaker 1: you know, for evil by a lot on sort certainly

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Speaker 1: the right. But I think also we're seeing journalists engage

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Speaker 1: like this and Taylor Lawrence, who's like a prominent reporter

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Speaker 1: at the Washington Post that covers influencers has said, you

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Speaker 1: know that her she sees media headed to be much

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Speaker 1: more distributed personalities instead of sort of these mainstream networks

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Speaker 1: that we're so used to. But what comes with that

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Speaker 1: is a whole lot of subjectivity that you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of obscures objective fact and truthfulness. And I think what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing from mainstream prominent journalists is that they are

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Speaker 1: accelerating us to that outcome way before we are ready

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Speaker 1: for it, you know, And I think so on social

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Speaker 1: media prong of this trifecta, there's three behaviors that I

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Speaker 1: think we see, and you know, anyone that's online, I

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Speaker 1: think can identify at least one or two prominent reporters

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Speaker 1: that stand out. But there's hundreds of people engaging this way, right,

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Speaker 1: So there's the blurring of lines between professional and personal

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Speaker 1: social media, which makes sense because a lot of times

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Speaker 1: these reporters are verified because they're a New York Times reporter,

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Speaker 1: they have hundreds of thousand followers because of their role,

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Speaker 1: and then they're pivoting to tweet every take that would

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Speaker 1: never get by an editor that they have no experience

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Speaker 1: or background to be commenting on, but it's sort of

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Speaker 1: elevated because it's on this larger platform with hundreds of

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Speaker 1: thousands of followers that people are following for the news,

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Speaker 1: not for Dave Whitegel's you know, racist jokes or you know,

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Speaker 1: bad food takes, those types of things. I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: that was one episode that stands out, but everybody seeing

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Speaker 1: that every week we're seeing, whether it's a Maggie Habermid

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Speaker 1: episode or Dave white Gel or you know, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you know more conservative people felt that way about Jim Acosta,

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Speaker 1: but every day we're seeing these media figures center themselves

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Speaker 1: instead of just focus on communicating important information to the

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Speaker 1: American people. That's one. Then two right, there's this direct

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Speaker 1: backlash between journalists that get called out then by people

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Speaker 1: like you and me and regular news consumers, and then

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Speaker 1: they're fighting in public suddenly with people that are supposed to,

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Speaker 1: you know, the next day read their recording and feel

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Speaker 1: its subjective and trustworthy and truthful, and it's it's incredibly unprofessional.

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Speaker 1: But again it's it's moving us faster on that timeline

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Speaker 1: towards partisan news. And then finally, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: we all see different reporters try to go viral. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this has happened to you, but I've

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Speaker 1: had a lot of people, you know, try to DM

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Speaker 1: me their stories and things like that, which, again, like,

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Speaker 1: if it's good work, I'm happy to amplify it. I'm

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Speaker 1: on Twitter all days, so I'm seeing it. But there

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Speaker 1: is that sort of questionable issue of blake. Why are

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Speaker 1: journalists in the dms of you know, social media people

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Speaker 1: asking them to plug their reporting it again, it creates

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Speaker 1: a perverse incentive there when you're then going to cover

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Speaker 1: that person or something like that. So you know, it's

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Speaker 1: funny because for me, you know, people have always confused

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Speaker 1: me and said that I was a journalist and I'm not, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually very clear about the fact that I did

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Speaker 1: not go to school for journalism. I'm not a journalist.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually an opinionator. And there is a difference, right

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Speaker 1: Like I come from a place that is not neutral,

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Speaker 1: right Like, I come from a place that is and

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Speaker 1: I and I try for the people that listen to me,

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Speaker 1: that read, you know, my work, like I try and

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Speaker 1: make that very clear, like um, because I want folks

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Speaker 1: to understand that there is a line there was a

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Speaker 1: line anyway between what it was considered opinions, right, like

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Speaker 1: you being asked to write a piece from your vantage

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Speaker 1: point versus somebody who is employed by a Washington Post

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Speaker 1: in New York Times where they're not employed as an

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Speaker 1: opinion writer, they're employed as a reporter. And that you know,

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Speaker 1: so I just want you again for folks who are

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Speaker 1: not necessarily in the minutia to understand the distinctions between

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Speaker 1: those things. Yeah, and then you know, sort of so

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Speaker 1: the next player, of course, and these all sort of

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Speaker 1: operate together, but the order doesn't really matter. Is you

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Speaker 1: want to have a lot of social media followers because

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Speaker 1: that's going to get you on cable news and get

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Speaker 1: you a book deal, which a lot of these journalists

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Speaker 1: want a book deal. That's like considered sort of like

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Speaker 1: you know, a major career goal. And especially when you

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Speaker 1: go to the White House Press Corps and you know,

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Speaker 1: you're sort of immediately incentivized to create this reality television

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Speaker 1: as you noted, because the minute you do that, you're

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Speaker 1: going to be covered across network news. They might invite

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Speaker 1: you on a show to talk about the viral moment.

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Speaker 1: And so again, you know what in the Trump era,

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Speaker 1: it's a little hard to disaggregate what was appropriate journalism

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Speaker 1: standing up to a really corrupt leader. And there were

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Speaker 1: some great moments, really brave moments from journalists. But you know,

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Speaker 1: then we see under Biden somebody like you know, do

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Speaker 1: Sye there, who's literally just exists to troll, create viral moments,

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Speaker 1: get Twitter traction, and I saw, like really concerning there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of buy it, I think across the industry

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Speaker 1: from this approach. Eric Wempel, who's you know again, a

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Speaker 1: prominent media critic for The Washington Post, basically said of

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Speaker 1: Doucy's trolling, you know, that's his job to get, you know,

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Speaker 1: to elicit sort of anger and reaction from President Biden.

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Speaker 1: And I actually just fundamentally disagree. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: the American people are sitting there watching these sort of

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Speaker 1: exchanges hoping for drama that you have reality TV if

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Speaker 1: you want to watch that. People want rectation, and so

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Speaker 1: the incentive to go fight with Biden or catch him

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Speaker 1: off guard, or you know, any leader that's not actually

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Speaker 1: prioritizing truth, you know, asking those follow up questions they

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Speaker 1: never seem to ask to any buddy when they come

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Speaker 1: on their show that's about truth seeking, you know, So

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Speaker 1: I think that's another incentive. And then, of course the

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Speaker 1: book deals as we've all seen, not only is there

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Speaker 1: the issue of self promotion, where if I'm following Jake

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Speaker 1: Chapper because I want to know breaking news because he

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Speaker 1: has special access, then I got to see him plug

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Speaker 1: his book every fifth tweet, like or plug a Collie's book, right,

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Speaker 1: Like that's like, that's sort of a perverse incentive because

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Speaker 1: we know, as we just default know that salespeople are

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Speaker 1: not objective, and we want our journalists to be objective.

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Speaker 1: So if you're hawking a book to me every five seconds,

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Speaker 1: of course I'm going to think, well, maybe you're, you know,

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Speaker 1: positioning yourself whether on what you cover or how you

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Speaker 1: cover it, to sell this book more than you know,

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Speaker 1: to tell the truth to the American people. And because

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Speaker 1: again these things are all interrelated, we see people saving

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Speaker 1: those scoops, whether it's Maggie Haberman or Bob Woodwork or

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Speaker 1: you know those two New York Times. Oh yeah, Mark right, right,

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Speaker 1: Bob Boardward couldn't let us all know about COVID, right,

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Speaker 1: And what Donald Trump had said about COVID in December

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen when he was interviewing him for his book Fear,

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Speaker 1: but he would hold that information when Donald Trump told him, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is some really bad stuff. It's worse than the flu.

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Speaker 1: It's airborne, and he would hold that until he was

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Speaker 1: ready to release his book months. I mean literally, it's

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Speaker 1: not too dramatic to say life's gonna you know, been

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Speaker 1: saved because of that. Yeah. Absolutely, And again like why

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Speaker 1: are they doing that? Because you need to have something

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Speaker 1: newsworthy so that when you go on cable news months

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Speaker 1: later after you submitted your book, you have something that

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Speaker 1: you know is going to drive the news cycle because

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Speaker 1: even though not that many people are watching cable news relatively,

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Speaker 1: that is still what drives a lot of book sales.

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Speaker 1: So it's all related, and again it's not part of

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Speaker 1: that puzzle is informing the American people, you know, at

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Speaker 1: this crisis moment for democracy and a crisis moment of

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Speaker 1: course relatedly for the media industry, which you know, I

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Speaker 1: think is sort of imploding. We're seeing. So so let

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Speaker 1: me let me ask you this because it's something that

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Speaker 1: I find that I have found very troubling throughout my

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Speaker 1: career in media, which is, you know, we look at

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Speaker 1: the types of stories, and I'm particularly talking about cable

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Speaker 1: news right now, So we look at the type of

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Speaker 1: stories that make it into segments, that make it into shows,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I know by virtue of being inside

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Speaker 1: these places that these newsrooms do not look like me right,

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Speaker 1: that they are filled still still just sprinklings of people

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Speaker 1: of color and sprinkling of women or non binary folks

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Speaker 1: like as sprinkling, it is mostly still white men that

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Speaker 1: get to make new decisions. And because they come from

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Speaker 1: this vantage point though of quote unquote neutrality, there has

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Speaker 1: been this discrimination towards people of color, towards queer people,

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Speaker 1: towards women, about us not being able to be quote

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Speaker 1: unquote neutral or objective because we embody some of the

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Speaker 1: same demographics as the stories that we're covering. What do

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Speaker 1: you say to that, Because to me, I'm like, there's

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Speaker 1: a difference between being objective, being neutral, right, and also

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Speaker 1: just being honest. And the fact that white men have

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Speaker 1: always been the ones to have been said are the

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Speaker 1: ones that can be neutral absolutely, So it's such a

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Speaker 1: good point, and I think, like to your point, you know,

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Speaker 1: people that defend the status quo often like to you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of do that under the guise of being neutral.

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Speaker 1: But the status quo is not neutral. It has all

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Speaker 1: the history behind it, right that led up to that moment,

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Speaker 1: to all the points you just made. I think one

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Speaker 1: interesting thing. So in my research, I sort of started

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Speaker 1: off with a deep dive into the history of journalism

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Speaker 1: in America and you know, trace it to how we

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Speaker 1: got to this moment, and what you bring up comes

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Speaker 1: up in sort of you know, recent decades of journalists

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Speaker 1: understanding the pitfalls of you know, it's impossible to actually

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Speaker 1: be objective, and of course you're coming from a perspective,

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Speaker 1: and often that perspective we know is you know, disproportionately

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Speaker 1: white and male. Um. But that doesn't mean that we

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Speaker 1: throw out the project of objective truth telling all together,

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Speaker 1: because I think the added value the journalists should be

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Speaker 1: bringing is not They're sort of subjective. This is my

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Speaker 1: background experience that I'm sort of super imposing on the news,

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Speaker 1: but it should be. I'm somebody that's spent ten years

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Speaker 1: covering Capitol Hill. I know, within the bounds of reason,

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Speaker 1: this is normal behavior. And I'm using that objective experience

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Speaker 1: that's personal too, because it's my experience to say this

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Speaker 1: was outrageous or to say this was a huge deviation, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: those are the types of ways that you can sort

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Speaker 1: of still be objective and of course bring that experience in,

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Speaker 1: but it's the useful, relevant experience and not you know,

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Speaker 1: random and appropriate experience. So I think that's a huge issue.

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Speaker 1: And I think again, like not solving that diversity issue

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Speaker 1: is so huge because it's been years now, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I still still people complaining about like, oh I can't

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Speaker 1: get like a a young white man's never going to

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Speaker 1: get a book published again. It's like I don't right,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't know if you've seen those viral tweets

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Speaker 1: from people but like this, like crying about how their

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Speaker 1: editors are like, oh, yeah, we'll never give this a chance. Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's objectively true. If you go look

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Speaker 1: at the New York Times bestseller lists, right, I think

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of invasion first. Yeah, yeah, that white

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Speaker 1: men are hurting same in journalism, you know, Like I

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Speaker 1: was able to speak with some prominent reporters for this work,

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Speaker 1: and they say that they care a lot about the

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Speaker 1: issues of diversity and inclusion. Everything we see going forward

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to match that. If you ask those people

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Speaker 1: to follow up and say, okay, so what procedures do

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Speaker 1: you have in place? They don't have the answer that

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Speaker 1: they're looking at it with that in mind, I guess,

430
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: but they don't have the lived experience necessarily to do

431
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: a good job. And we've seen that over and over

432
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: in the coverage of Vice President Harris, who I think

433
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: has been extraordinarily disrespected, treated much a double standard, and

434
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: it's almost just normal. And again, because you have this

435
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,479
Speaker 1: critical mass of media leadership that is not diverse, they

436
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 1: all defend each other. So they're never gonna say, yes,

437
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: we mistreat did Paumala Harris. They're never gonna say, yes,

438
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: we mistreated Hillary Clinton. You know, five years later, you'll

439
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: get one or two hot takes that nobody reads that

440
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,479
Speaker 1: are like, oh, you know, actually, I was a journalist

441
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: the New York Times and I covered the Clinton campaign,

442
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: and if we did a terrible drop, that never has

443
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: the same effect as you know, the initial coverage and mistreatment.

444
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: So I'd look to you know, places like the Griot

445
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: for example, even just Brittney Griner right like, we're follow

446
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: up on that story for every week that you know,

447
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: we've been waiting. Now that they you know, had the

448
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: sentencing and trial and everything. It's getting coverage today, But

449
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe that, you know, somebody

450
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: of a different identity that was in a similar situation

451
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: would not have been driving totally different, much more persistent

452
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: media narratives up until this moment. And do we know

453
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 1: if that affects the outcome? You know, I mean hard

454
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: to say. You know. One of the things that too,

455
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: I find really troubling is, I mean, we we always

456
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: will see a double standard, a triple standard, depending on

457
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: who is being covered and who is doing the covering

458
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: of that story. But what I find really troubling now, um,

459
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: which I think is the purpose of your work, is

460
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: that we are in crisis. You said it earlier, like

461
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 1: this country, this world is in crisis, and the media

462
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: is not doing anything to educate people to use their

463
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: their their their mouthpieces to be able to inform the

464
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: public at these times of crisis, whether we're talking about

465
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: climate change, our democracy and the rise of authoritarianism in

466
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: this country, we're talking about abortion, any of these things.

467
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: And so what do you think, like, is there an

468
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: answer here or is this just going to, honestly cavan

469
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: continue to just get worse you know. So so I

470
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: do address you know, a couple of different solutions in

471
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: the paper, and obviously one is more public funding of journalism,

472
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: which I think the idea of, you know, it's a

473
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: hard thing to execute, but internationally there's some successful models,

474
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: and I think the idea there would be to have

475
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: a credible competitor to CNN and these other outlets that

476
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: are engaging in reckless behavior, whether that's an MPR or

477
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: something like that, which you know doesn't get a whole

478
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: lot of funding MPR compared to things like that the

479
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: way its structure, but I think actually something that's even

480
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: more necessary and more structural, so of course harder to do,

481
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: is every important industry we have, whether it's you know,

482
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: being a lawyer, being a doctor, and I would put

483
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: of course being a journalist. You know, at that level,

484
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: you know, these are people that should have a skill set.

485
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: There are people that I should know, right Like, I

486
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: know you took chemistry if you are a doctor, but

487
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: I don't know that you ethics or sociology or history

488
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: or any of those things. If you're a New York

489
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: Times journalist, and I think you know one of those issues.

490
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: There's this sort of catchway two of Okay, so is

491
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: the answer more credentialing and more school and should people

492
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: go to journalism school? But of course all those institutions

493
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: are historically exclusionary and offensive and hard to access. And

494
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: at the same time, does that mean we should just

495
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: not regulate this hugely important industry, you know, like the

496
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: law is a self regulating industry. Essentially you have the

497
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: bar association, right, Like, what if there was a sort

498
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: of more formal structure where you had, you know, some

499
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: type of counsel that thought through policies and put out

500
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: best practices, whether they were actionable or not. And what if,

501
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, it was more mainstream to go to journalism school.

502
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: And maybe these are hard topics. So I'm not saying

503
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: there's a right or wrong answer. How should journalists behave online?

504
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: I think we've seen some bad examples of what not

505
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: to do, but at least give people that are going

506
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: to be in this important profession the chance to debate that.

507
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: And here's maybe one theory of age online. Here's another.

508
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: At least I'm more thoughtful and not just tweeting out

509
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: every meme that I see on Reddit, you know, with

510
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: the platform of the Washington post political news desk behind

511
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: me and often you know, contributing to misinformation when I'm

512
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: doing that because you know, as funny as these little

513
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: hipster jokes are among you know, maybe people like us

514
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: that follow like the you know, minutia of media whatever,

515
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: most people have no idea what those people are talking

516
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: about or what the joke is, you know, like they're

517
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: not getting it right, just confusing people that want to

518
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: learn and want information. So yeah, well, Kivan, I think

519
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: that the work that you have done is really important.

520
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: I think that it's conversations that we just are not having,

521
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: and I don't you know, I hope that now, but

522
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: again I'm still not sure. I hope that now though,

523
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: people realize the importance of the media and what it

524
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: was supposed to be and what it has become, and

525
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: at the very least, by our eyeballs, which provide the

526
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: ratings and the money, you know, begin to show these

527
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: networks and outlets what it is that we actually want,

528
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 1: because it is going to be viewer based and reader based,

529
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: right like, it isn't going to be these people deciding,

530
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't want that six figure book deal,

531
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't want all these hundred thousand followers.

532
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: It is going to be about people demanding the type

533
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: of information and news that they need, otherwise they're going

534
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: to lose viewers absolutely. And I think, like, you know,

535
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: how I end sort of my research because I'm like,

536
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: these are a bunch of solutions that are really hard

537
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: and probably won't happen. But the one thing we can

538
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: do right now is what you just said, which is

539
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: educate people about this problem, call out and frame. That's

540
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: why I thought this project was important to me because

541
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 1: I think so much of education has been you know,

542
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: just adding terms and codifying and you know, creating a

543
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: body that people can like reference and build off of,

544
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: even if it's so intuitive that you know, as a consumer,

545
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: I think so many of your listeners will have already

546
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: identified themselves a lot of these issues, but sort of

547
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: adding vocabulary and creating a framework by which I want

548
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: people to recognize, you know, like that is a journalist

549
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: right now who's talking to me something, or that is

550
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: a journalist right now who's just designed this tweet to

551
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: try to get you know, engagement and go viral. Or

552
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: I just saw this journalist like you know, saving a

553
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: scoop while they're on their cable news hit I should

554
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: have known this three months ago, and call it out

555
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: and don't reward that behavior, and don't buy that book

556
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: and tell your friends yep yep Kaivan, trev I hope

557
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: that you will come back and join us again soon.

558
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: Appreciate you, Thank you so much, and I will keep

559
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: following along on by from TikTok. That is it for

560
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: me today. Dear friends, on woke app as always, Power

561
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: to the people and to all the people. Power, Get woke,

562
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: Dear Dear God, get woke and stay woke as fuck.

563
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: Get up. Behind the scenes. Look at Comedy Central's The

564
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from

565
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy

566
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts

567
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy

568
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: to tackle current topics from gentrification to gun laws and

569
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: take a closer look at how and why these topics matter.

570
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: Listen to Beyond the Scenes from the Daily Show with

571
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,360
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