WEBVTT - Antonio Damasio || Inside Consciousness 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.400 That is what consciousness is about. It's about creating the 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:09.479 not disputable fact that I am doing my perceptions and 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:14.160 you are doing your perceptions, and the two channels of operation, 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:17.639 and then the two kinds of operation are over the 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:28.440 same type that they are occurring in different organss. Hello, 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:31.800 and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today we welcome doctor 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:37.640 Antonio Dimasio. Doctor Demasio is an internationally recognized neuroscientist whose 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:41.559 extensive research has shaped the understanding of neural systems and consciousness. 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.360 With over one hundred journal articles and book chapters, he 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.600 has earned many prestigious awards throughout his career. Currently, he 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.640 serves as university professor, the David Dornzeif Professor of Neuroscience, 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.120 Psychology and Philosophy and Director of the Brain Creativity Institute 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:59.080 at the University of Southern California. His books Descartes Erra, 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:03.120 Looking First Notza Self, Comes to Mind, The Strange Order 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.000 of Things and Feeling and Knowing have been published in 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:09.120 translation and are taught in universities throughout the world. In 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:13.120 this stimulating episode, I talked to Antonio Demasio about consciousness. 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.000 People often think that the mind and consciousness are the 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:19.680 same thing. But doctor Demasio disputes this notion. He argues 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.400 that it's the complex relationship of both our brains and 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.600 bodies that makes sentient thought possible. Homeostatic feelings like hunger 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.360 and pain developed before emotions, and along with it came consciousness. 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:35.320 We also touch on the topics of perception, mental illness, evolution, panpsychism, 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.480 AI and machine learning. So it's with great enthusiasm that 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:43.440 I now bring you doctor Antonio Demasio. It's nice to 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.119 finally meet you. We have some mutual friends in common. 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.360 I am dear friends with Mary Helen and Maardino Yang. Oh, 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:56.200 very highly of view, and it's just yeah, she's having 0:01:56.200 --> 0:02:01.160 a beautiful career. She was I think the first person 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:07.840 we appointed to the Brand Creativity Institute. Now seventeen years ago. Wow, 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.120 time really does fly. Wow, that's how long ago you 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.359 guys started that. I remember when you started the institute 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.320 and yeah, that's exactly it. Very exciting. Well, today I 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.519 definitely want to discuss our mutual interest in the neuroscience 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.440 of creativity. But I wanted to start off today's episode 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:27.000 going back all the way back to nineteen eighty nine. 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.400 One of my favorite papers of yours in the journal 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:35.160 cognition called timelocked multi regional retroactivation. Now we're going to 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.600 have to explain and unpack what in the world that 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.840 means to our general audience of listeners. But the reason 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:42.600 why I wanted to double click on that because I 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.680 think that was a really seminal paper. I hope you 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:49.680 agree of modern day brain network systems research on consciousness. 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.000 I see that as a really seminal sort of early ideas. 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:54.200 So could you kind of unpack a little bit what 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.960 that paper showed. So we were interested in the idea 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:05.080 that as you, as you manipulate knowledge, perceptions of every kind, 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:11.359 different considerations that we make on what we're perceiving and 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.080 what we are thinking about based on those perceptions on 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:19.520 all of that needs to be stored in some way, 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:29.440 and the storage, in all likelihood proceeds by creating arrangements 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:35.720 of memories, of traces of all of those events near 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.360 the places in the brain where they are formed to 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:44.520 begin with. So we have a number of portals into 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:49.440 our brain that largely come out of the dominant perceptual systems, 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:54.360 particularly of course the visual and the auditory, which clearly 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:59.800 dominate in most individuals. And then all the other senses 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:02.880 that we know of. And what is interesting is that 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:11.280 those the channeling of information from the sensory probs that 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.920 are located in the periphery of our body and also 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:19.839 the periphery of our nervous system and the central part 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:25.040 of the nervous system, they all land in different parts 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.240 of the brain, which is of course predictable, because we 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.440 have a channel that goes, for example, from our eyes 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.600 to a particular region of the cortex, which happens to 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:41.440 be visual context, and then the place where the things 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.960 that you're hearing right now that I'm hearing of my 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.799 own voice, they land in another place. And then out 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:56.200 of those humps where information is being sent to you 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.920 have the possibility of creating a sort of encircling where 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:04.760 you have not only the immediate processing of what is 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:07.960 being channel at the moment. In this case, for example, 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.159 I'm looking at your face and your bookcase behind you, 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.440 You're listening to my voice and probably looking at whatever 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:19.440 I have behind me, and so there's that early sensory processing. 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:24.720 But then all around there are structures that can actually 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:28.640 take a part the information that is coming in and 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:35.000 provide storage for that information, sometimes in a piecemeal form, 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.880 sometimes in a whole holistic form, So you have the 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:45.360 possibility of creating memories for what is being processed right now, 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.800 and then, depending on how important those things are for 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.680 your life, they may stay on as permanent memories and 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.280 be transformed, or they may be just disposed of in 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.480 the course of life. And then what it's interesting too, 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:04.720 is that most of the time our perceptions are not 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.279 occurring in one modality only. So for example, right now, 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.040 there is a visual perception that we're both having an 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:16.400 auditory perception, but also lo and behold, we have the 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.239 perception quote unquote of what is happening in our own body. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.360 For example, if all of a sudden you would be 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.760 you could be feeling hungry or thirsty, or you could 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:32.120 have pain somewhere, that would be perceived as well, except 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.440 that that would be arranged in a different kind of system. 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.559 There is a cortical component to it too as well, 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.800 but by and large it doesn't happen in the cortext 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.800 that the most important parts they happen in the brainstem. 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.240 They happen in the spinal cord. So you can have 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:57.880 all of this fabrication of traces of things that are 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:02.320 happening to you, inside your body and around you. They 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:06.640 go to specific points in the nervous system, not in one. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:11.080 It's very interesting as a parenthesis that very often people 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.920 that don't know anything about the brain or about the 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:19.520 mind studied in detail, can perfectly well believe that all 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.840 of this is going into one great big tank, one 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.960 great big sink, and it's all put together. But it isn't. 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:30.360 It's all separated at birth. It's all separated and goes 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:35.320 into different points. And those different points where it occurs, 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:40.960 they already are signed of a convergence of signals, and 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.720 then from there they can go to another set of 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:51.280 stations where further integration of the signals is done, and 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.720 by again, the process of convergence of signaling is a 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.840 little bit of a pyramid going into a point. And 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:04.280 then eventually you can and have combinations of those different pyramids, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:08.360 of those different cooking points and create something that is 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:13.120 much larger. That's the great picture than I had for 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:17.840 the convergence from multiple reagions. And then what is interesting 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:24.120 is that eventually you can have a combination of facts. 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:28.280 For example, right now I'm talking to you, I have 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.200 my perception review. I know that I'm talking to you 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.600 about this particular process, which is really a process of 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:41.720 learning and categorization and memory making. But I also know 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.959 that I just talked to my assistant and we talked 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.760 about a couple of specific things that I need to 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.000 get done as soon as I'm done talking to you. 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:57.800 And I'm also looking at a page from Corriela said, 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:02.520 that's the paper where there is a review of my 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:10.640 new book. And it's very good. How it says it's 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:15.520 a lovely title, Body and Feeling the romance of Damasio. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:21.240 I love it. I love it better than that. It's 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:26.800 done by actually by a major measure Italian biologist anyway. 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:31.480 So all of this stuff is being integrated. And what 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.640 is interesting is that if next week you call me 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:40.920 and you remind me of this session we're having, I 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.880 could perfectly well remember not only parts of this conversation, 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.480 but part of what I just told you about that 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.720 particular review that happens to be on my desk. So 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.559 things have a way of being integrated by the time 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.880 at which they're occurring, but also by the happenstance of 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.440 being here at the right moment, And so things that 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:08.400 are not linked will be linked. Because at that time, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.120 in this case, the time in which I am talking 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.520 to you, my eyes also fell on that page that 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.880 was here on my desk actually just died anyway, So 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.400 that's what I had in mind, and it has proven 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.520 helpful to explain problems of memory as well as making 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.480 normal memory, because we know that when you can damage 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.800 one part of this system, you don't lose memory across 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:39.360 the board. You lose certain specific memories and memories of 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.680 certain kinds, for example that may be more related to 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.559 the visual system than another. Anyway, very complicated answer for 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:52.560 a very complicated subject. Yeah, it's very complicated paper, you know. 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:54.880 But the reason why I bring this up is because 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.000 I think it's extraordinary. It was a theoretical paper and 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.679 it seems to have really modern day work, which is 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.640 really focused on systems level and brain networks, has really 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.360 borne out a lot of those ideas, if not all 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.480 of those ideas. So I think it's kudos to you, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.760 kudos to you, Thank you very much. There's a sentence 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.280 in that paper that I wanted a link to your 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.880 more modern work, and let me just read this. You 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:25.559 rate meaning is reached by time locked multi regional retroactivation 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.920 of widespread fragment records say that ten times really quickly. 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.120 Only the latter records can become contents of consciousness. I 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.480 found that a very fascinating two sentences for a number 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.640 of reasons. One, there does seem to be something unique 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.240 about humans. Areniquely developed about humans in terms of our 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.480 meaning making facilities, And I'd love to kind of get 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.600 into what is the neural machinery and psychological process that 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:52.520 allow us to do that, and why turtles can't do 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.720 that for instance. Second of all that second sentence, only 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.600 the latter records can become contents of consciousness. I wonder 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.320 if you can pack that a little bit, because you 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.160 go through a lot in your new book on the 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:08.000 distinction the crucial distinction between mind and consciousness. And so 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.280 I'm linking the distinction of mind and consciousness, which you 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:15.320 make so clearly now with that very complicated sentence that 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.000 I just read from your nineteen eight nine paper. I 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.120 hope you're okay with that linkage I made. I think 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.000 it makes sense in my head. I think it makes 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.240 it makes perfect sense. Let's actually start with the things 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.920 that pertain to the new book, because that may help 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:33.560 unpack the older sentence and what I'm trying to do. 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.199 The distinction between mind and consciousness is critical for a 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.520 variety of first buying large people confuse the two. And 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.880 you know, it says if creatures that are minded, be 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.079 necessarily conscious, and the two things will go together and 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:53.680 could be interchangeable, And that's not the case. The same way. Actually, 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:59.800 in our conversation yesterday by email, you mentioned something about 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:05.520 your interests in covert processing in things that are not 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.000 in fact in the mind, that I have to do 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.760 with it with an intelligence that is capable that is 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:17.400 not minded. And these are all different parts of this 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:22.000 great big thing that we call or conscious minds, and 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:26.000 that include a lot about conscious process. So if you 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:30.559 take simple creatures, I wouldn't start with turtles, but I 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:35.040 would certain something even simple like bacteria or a variety 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.800 of creatures with only a few cells and a humiliated cells. 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.640 Those creatures have no nervous system to begin with, and 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:48.960 yet they are intelligent and capable within the niche of 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:53.920 universe in which they operate, and they can perfectly well 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:59.840 detect certain the presence or absence of something, which is 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:04.360 really the form of perception quote unquote, not a perception 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:12.600 like we have with detailed imaging exactly. Yeah, detecting and 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.920 sensing a good words for that, except that very often 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:21.040 they connote other things in the mind of people and 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.320 they can add to the confusion. But anyway, they can 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:30.440 detect sense stuff, and they can with the machinery that 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:34.479 they have, respond in a certain way that is consonant 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.960 with what they detect. Now, that is an intelligence thing 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.960 to do. There's no question that it is adaptive and intelligent, 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.520 and it is protecting them because they may detect something 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:49.880 that they need, such as for example, food the food particle, 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.640 or they may detect something that is potentially harmful, and 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.320 that's good because it's going to protect their body and 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:00.480 to allow them to live as long as their machine 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:05.680 is meant for it to live genetically speaking. Now, so 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:12.000 that is intelligent, but not minded and not conscious. Now, 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.280 when you turn to what we do at the other end, 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.360 and what many other creatures do in between, we have 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.960 not only the capacity to detect sense stuff, but then 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:29.000 we also have the capacity to represent what we detect 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:35.080 it and also represent ourselves as victims of the detection, 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.880 and we have the capacity to know that all of 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:45.480 that relates to our unique argets. So these three tiers 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.560 are very very important to separate, and unfortunately, in the 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.160 minds of most people, this is one great big salad. 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.600 And what I'm trying to do if you ask me 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.520 what is the most important thing that I think I'm 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.800 doing right now? In addition to explaining stuff that I'm 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.840 passionate about, such as how you get to have a feeling, 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:11.280 who is actually insisting on the separation? So you have 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:16.680 a mind when you are capable of representing something that 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:22.040 you detected. And fortunately for us, we have the capacity 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.720 to represent tons of things depending on the different sensory 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.520 channels we have help things outside of our bodies and 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:34.680 inside of our Then we have an intelligence provided we 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:39.080 are capable of responding to things that are in our 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:43.840 environment but not necessarily representing it. And then we are 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:49.000 conscious when we connect the thing that we are mindful 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:55.120 of with our own organism. The beauty of consciousness is that, 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.400 for example, I'm looking at you, I know that it's 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.080 need looking at you. Why do I know that? Well, 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:05.560 that's exactly the problem of consciousness. The image that you 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:12.320 are helping generate in my brain is activating a variety 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:17.320 of systems that are in my brain and body, and 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:21.880 that connects the tool indelibly and in such a way 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.880 that I have no doubt that it's me talking to you, Scott. 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.680 There's no question. That is what consciousness is about. It's 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:35.920 about creating the not disputable fact that I am doing 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.520 my perceptions and you are doing your perceptions, and the 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:43.399 two channels of operation, and then the two kinds of 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:47.600 operation are over the same type, but they are occurring 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.960 in different organisms. Yeah, for sure. This is a really 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.560 unique aspect of your theory of consciousness, which not everyone 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.119 in the field has this definition of consciousness. You know, 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.639 there's a panpsychism is really hot right now, right the 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.840 pan psychic people. Can I say that the pan psychic people, 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:07.360 they wouldn't say it. You have to have that criteria 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.119 of the organism being able to identify it with itself 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.640 in order for it to be conscious. And this makes 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.480 your work very unique and very influential. That you really 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:18.719 are arguing that there's a very important distinction. A lot 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:20.440 of people in the field do not make this distinction. 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.800 You know, we should make that clear. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:29.160 And I think that if you don't make those distinctions, 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.399 I think you actually end up in the place that 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.840 led to pan psychism. I think there is a very 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:42.120 good reason why pan psycheism myth the moment is popular, 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:46.719 and there is an escape people that have come up 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:51.040 against the wall of consciousness and then talk about such 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.280 things as the heart problem of the impossible problem, I 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.280 really abstracted in their view of what can be and 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:02.040 as a result, as anything goes. But the psyche is 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:06.439 helpful because well, you know, maybe the reason why you 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:11.800 can't explain it easily is because it's everywhere and something 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.120 that's not inside us. It's really something that we capture 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:20.200 from what's around us, which I find first no evidence 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:25.960 for and second no way of testing, no way of 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.000 doing an experiment that would cope with that. It's like 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:34.200 strength theory. It's like strength theory and physics. But I 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.600 think it. I can understand that I have sympathy for 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:42.520 people that feel cornered and not capable of explaining it. 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:46.199 But I am sympathy is one thing, and I'm not 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:50.080 in that camp. And there's one thing that we add 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:54.320 because that you know, we really through your question where 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:57.760 we sort of got to the top of the problem 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:04.119 very quickly. But one thing that is extremely important for 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:09.000 me is this Most of the things, probably everything that 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:14.000 you read about consciousness or for that matter, about mind, 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:18.440 always talks about the brain alone. You know, people said, 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:23.440 we need to find out how the brain creates consciousness. 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:28.720 Excuse me, why just the brain? Why this insistent insistence 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.479 on the fact that the nervous system and the nervous 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.320 system alone is the creator of these things. I dispute that. 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.159 I don't think it is. But you don't need to 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:42.239 go to the surround spirits to find it. It's in 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:47.320 your own body. The logical march here is from creatures 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:51.040 that are alives, have bodies but don't have nervous systems, 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:55.399 to creatures that, eventually our life have bodies and have 0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:01.920 nervous systems. And minds and consciousness are ultimate the product 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:09.479 of a particular relationship between the living organisms body and 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.440 the nervous system in that body. It's not that the 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:17.320 nervous system is plucked in putting this inside our bodies 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:21.680 and flee inside our skull and charged with creating minds 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.960 and creating consciousness. Not at all. I mean, of course, 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:29.159 you cannot have mindset consciousness without a nervous system. The 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.840 nervous system is there as a partner in the process 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:38.560 that can lead to better life regulation. The nervous system 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.760 is a servant of homeostasies the same way that the 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:46.920 body in general is a possessor of hondo static operations 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:51.520 that will allow that organism, that living thing, to continue 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:57.320 for an allotted amount of time. Well, it sounds like 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.280 there are implications there for those who argue we might 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:03.640 be able to upload our brain someday and continue our consciousness. 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:05.560 It sounds like you're saying, Ah, that's not going to 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.040 be possible. You know, conscious is not only in the brain, 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:15.040 right exactly, So consciousness by when you analyze what it 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.960 really means to be conscious, when you come back to 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:23.560 the thought that I advanced for you, which is that 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:29.880 it's about knowing that I am here in my body, 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:33.240 in this life, and that the things that I have 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:37.479 in my mind, the representations I have, do not belong 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:40.880 somewhere else, do not belong in another organ their might. 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:43.560 How do I know that their mind? Well, they know 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:47.919 that their mind, because my nervous system is in constant 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:53.239 interaction with the organism in which it is located and 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:56.520 without which it could not live. It's not for people 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.520 who are not as cognitive scientists. They're maybe listening to 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:02.520 somewhere verization. There are a lot of technical terms are 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:05.879 throwing around, But one implication I see from one of 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:07.680 this as well, with the upholding of the brain, is 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.280 that we may be able to uphold and replicate a mind, 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:13.320 but not consciousness. Well, I mean, maybe might not even 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:14.840 be able to do the mind, But it seems like 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:16.960 at the very best, maybe what we can do is 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.760 just replicate Scott Berryer Kaufman's mind, but I'm never going 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:22.480 to be able to identify it with the force. Could 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:26.440 be sitting in a that of zero ones. You got it, 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:28.760 and you've got it right, And that's exactly it. And 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:31.920 that's of course we don't need to go there. But 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.720 that's exactly one of the problems a artificial intelligence right 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:40.359 now is that you can with our current capabilities, we 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:44.640 can have something like the contents of your mind in 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.800 an artificial normal, living creature. If you're going to make 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:53.399 it conscious, that's another story. And for that it's almost 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:56.520 an absurdity to think it could be conscious if it's 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:00.920 not living, because the entire thing is, the entire notion 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:05.520 of consciousness is right now, you can have similacra of consciousness. 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:09.320 I have no problem with that. In fact, we have 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:12.840 a paper that you probably you may know about. The 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:16.480 paper is in Nature Machine Intelligence on how you make 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:22.400 this linkage between between a robot and a real body 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:27.400 with minds and conscious capabilities, and it is a it's 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:31.040 an interesting thing to discuss. That is very interesting, and 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:33.520 we are shooting towards the top. I understand, I totally get. 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:35.480 We haven't gone through all the steps yet, and of 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:38.080 what is feeling what? I have a million other questions 0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:39.639 that we were supposed to talk about along the way 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:41.760 before we get here. But this is really interesting. So 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:44.520 while we're here for a second, the idea of can 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:48.600 we ever make feeling machines? Since since we're kind of 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:50.840 talking about that right now, I would like to link 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:54.000 that to the idea of why is feeling so essential 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:56.320 to consciousness in your model? And how do you even 0:24:56.359 --> 0:24:58.920 define feeling? And then and then why not let's have fun, 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:00.800 let's link that to or not we'll be able to 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:04.240 create feeling machines as an implication of that. Okay, very good. 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:08.360 Just a little teaching point for people that are sort 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:11.200 of cut in a little of these terms like feeling 0:25:11.240 --> 0:25:15.080 and emotion. Very often, when people think feeling or hear 0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:20.479 the word feeling, they immediately portray an emotion, and of 0:25:20.480 --> 0:25:24.159 course that's the beginning of disaster because the two things 0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:28.719 are in fact associated one of the time, but are 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:31.920 plenty of the time they're not. So we could start 0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:35.879 by saying this, what came first feelings or emotions, and 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:40.600 in all likelihood feelings did, because feelings are in fact 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:46.439 mental expressions of certain states of the organism to begin with, 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:49.600 and to begin with that to add with, because when 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:54.359 you have an emotional feeling, you are also dealing with 0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:57.480 a state of your organisms. But let's start with feelings 0:25:57.560 --> 0:26:01.679 the way they likely begin in the history of life, 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:05.359 and the feelings that must have been the first were 0:26:05.440 --> 0:26:10.719 what I call homeostatic feelings, and they occurred in creatures 0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:15.640 with nervous systems. That's very important to realize. And by 0:26:15.680 --> 0:26:19.960 the way, on once you remember the strong link that 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:23.240 I have between feelings and consciousness, you again to have 0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:28.240 this link between feeling and consciousness and nervous systems. You know, 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:30.360 it doesn't make any sense to talk about it if 0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:33.280 they're non nervous systems. There don't need any feelings if 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:37.919 you're nervous systems anyway, So what feeling, there's an aesthetic 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:43.200 feelings first to give in an organism that is multicaluble 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:49.400 and has nervous systems, is a sense actually a mental 0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:54.280 representation of something important that is happening in that body, 0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:59.040 such as, for example, being hungry or being thirsty, or 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:03.800 having pain or feeling damn good. Those are the fundamental 0:27:04.080 --> 0:27:07.920 I mean static feelings. Desire is too, but if you 0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:10.760 don't need to go there to earning, the monitor design 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:14.720 its Valentine's Day today. Well, hold on, hold on, we're 0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:17.159 talking today Valentine's Day, folks, even though we're going to 0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:22.919 release this later, just so people know. Okay, So what 0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:28.119