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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. Today is Saturday, so we have a

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Speaker 1: vault episode for you. This is going to be a

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Speaker 1: spooky one that originally came out 10-7-2025. It lurks in

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Speaker 1: the mind shaft, part one. Please enjoy. Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick. And hey, it's still October, so

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Speaker 2: our Halloween season stuff continues. Today we're kicking off an

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Speaker 2: expedition into the mineshaft to talk about monsters and spooky

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Speaker 2: legends associated with mines and mining.

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Speaker 1: That's right. This one should be a fun one. We're

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Speaker 1: going to be, especially in this episode, we're kind of

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Speaker 1: revisiting some ideas that we've discussed more briefly in the past.

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Speaker 1: I did a monster fact that touched on some of this,

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Speaker 1: and we've also talked a little bit, we've gone a

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Speaker 1: little bit into the minds in search of the supernatural

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Speaker 1: beings and traditions, but we haven't really mounted an expedition

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Speaker 1: on this level before. So yeah, this one should be good.

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Speaker 1: So as we've covered on the show before, whenever humans

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Speaker 1: venture where they don't quite belong, they inevitably encounter monsters.

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Speaker 1: one form or another. There are monsters of the deep

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Speaker 1: forest and the deep ocean, of the desert and the snow,

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Speaker 1: and there are monsters too that haunt places of human construction.

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Speaker 1: Obviously our tombs, the necropolis, even spaces like empty bathrooms

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Speaker 1: at night and lonely expanses of country road. These places

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Speaker 1: too may be home to monsters and monstrous spirits and

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Speaker 1: other entities. Each in their own way, these are all

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Speaker 1: places of mystery, and the monster is in some ways

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Speaker 1: an answer to that mystery. And in discussing monsters, ghosts,

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Speaker 1: and legends associated with mining, we're dealing with a very

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Speaker 1: fascinating environment. Because on one level, the solid earth beneath

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Speaker 1: our feet, or deep within the heart of a mountain,

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Speaker 1: is exactly the sort of place where we do not belong.

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Speaker 1: Either we're talking about the grave, or we're just talking

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Speaker 1: about solid earth that affords us no place to exist.

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Speaker 1: or on another level, a cavern or other natural or

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Speaker 1: artificial formation in the earth, some sort of hollow in

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Speaker 1: the earth that we might venture into. And so, as

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Speaker 1: we've discussed in the show before, caves have, of course,

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Speaker 1: long been a place of fascination for humans, you know,

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Speaker 1: well back through prehistoric times. From what we can tell,

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Speaker 1: they seem to have been places that offered a number

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Speaker 1: of resources and ideas. They might offer shelter, water, warmth,

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Speaker 1: And even in limited ways, food. There were also places

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Speaker 1: of strange sights and sounds, places to speak to the

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Speaker 1: future or learn from the past through art. And of course,

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Speaker 1: to venture farther into the caverns was to court additional dangers. Then,

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Speaker 1: as now, you could become lost, stuck, or just overcome

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Speaker 1: by deprivation of the senses. And humans also learned pretty

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Speaker 1: early on that these subterranean spaces could also offer substances

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Speaker 1: of additional value to them, such as red ochre, or flint,

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Speaker 1: and other hard rocks, and ultimately copper and gold. Now,

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Speaker 1: to get these resources, humans sometimes had to brave the

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Speaker 1: depths of the Earth, not only descending into naturally occurring openings,

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Speaker 1: but forging their own tunnels and pits, mines for the

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Speaker 1: harvesting of Earth's riches. Now, we can't summarize the history

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Speaker 1: of mining in much detail for these episodes, but suffice

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Speaker 1: to say that the enterprise became increasingly complicated and daring.

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Speaker 1: Humans cut deeper and deeper into the earth, and in

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Speaker 1: doing so, perpetually faced safety challenges. Mining could prove really

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Speaker 1: dangerous work, and this was, of course, coupled with the

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Speaker 1: ominous atmosphere of the mine, a world of darkness, of

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Speaker 1: strange sights and strange sounds. Again, sensory deprivation that could

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Speaker 1: bring on... sights and sounds that are not quite real, hallucinations,

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Speaker 1: both visual and auditory. And on top of this, there

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Speaker 1: was this seeming proximity to these various traditions of the underworld,

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Speaker 1: traditions regarding some sort of a mythic underground world that

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Speaker 1: date back at least to ancient Mesopotamia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And in many ancient cosmologies you know

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Speaker 2: the underworld was it wasn't a metaphor it was like

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Speaker 2: often literally thought to be beneath your feet in some

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Speaker 2: sense you would go down to.

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Speaker 1: It yeah like where do we go when we die

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Speaker 1: underground uh where are we going today to get these

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Speaker 1: precious metals uh we're going underground kind of a daring

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Speaker 1: prospect and i do want to stress though that if

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Speaker 1: you In the future, we may discuss, we'll inevitably discuss

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Speaker 1: mining adjacent topics, at least, even if we don't do

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into mining. And obviously, you don't always

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Speaker 1: have to cut an artificial cave or tunnel into the

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Speaker 1: earth to mine things. But of course, that's the model

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Speaker 1: that is going to factor into many of the examples

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Speaker 1: we're going to be discussing here today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And we can talk about some more practical distinctions

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Speaker 2: between different types of mining as we go on through

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Speaker 2: this series. But it does seem to me, based on

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Speaker 2: what I've read so far, that Tunnel mining that does

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Speaker 2: go down into caverns and tunnels beneath the surface is

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Speaker 2: the type of mining that gives the most rise to

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Speaker 2: the belief in supernatural entities and beings. It seems to

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Speaker 2: me there is less monstrous, less ghostly, less spiritual associated with, say,

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Speaker 2: open pit mining or placer mining where you're sifting sediment

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Speaker 2: from a stream bed and things like that. probably just because,

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Speaker 2: you know, there you're open to the sky. It's just

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Speaker 2: less eerie, and it is less likely to conjure, you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of spooky, eerie feelings for a number of reasons

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Speaker 2: that we can discuss as we go on.

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Speaker 1: Right, and then all sorts of additional dangers that don't

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Speaker 1: exist if you're doing an open pit mine or you're,

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Speaker 1: you know, standing in a stream, that sort of thing. Now,

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Speaker 1: we've been thrown around a few different terms here, spirits

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Speaker 1: and monsters. Many of the traditions that we're going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about concern beings that fall roughly into a

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Speaker 1: category that may often be described as fairies or fair folk.

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Speaker 1: And as Carol Rose, the folklorist, writes in her works,

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Speaker 1: you know, they might be thought of as beings that

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Speaker 1: exist between heroes and the gods. Folklorist Charlotte Sophie Byrne

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Speaker 1: described them in her 1914 book, The Handbook of Folklore, as, quote,

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Speaker 1: various races of beings, not human and yet not divine,

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Speaker 1: who are supposed to share this lower earth more or

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Speaker 1: less invisibly with mankind. And I really like that definition,

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Speaker 1: more or less invisibly, because sometimes we talk about them

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Speaker 1: being fair or invisible, but other times we talk about

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Speaker 1: how they are small. They're like the leprechaun. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: this ends up just taking on the pure idea of

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Speaker 1: them being very small in stature or being a miniature people.

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Speaker 1: But I was thinking about this over the weekend that

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Speaker 1: It is also, it's like they just have a different

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Speaker 1: spatial reality. Like they live in different spatial dimensions, and

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Speaker 1: they can fold themselves in and out of those spaces.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're sometimes conceived as having a subtle form, one

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Speaker 2: that is only lightly detectable to our senses. Other times

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Speaker 2: they're pictured more as being often hidden, but occasionally coming

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Speaker 2: out into view. But yeah, it fits well with this

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Speaker 2: idea of... You know, like a later science fiction idea

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Speaker 2: of extra dimensional beings phasing in and out of our reality.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that also speaks more to the

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Speaker 1: power that's often attributed to them, because, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're just dealing with very pop culture leprechaun ideas like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they have some powers. They may be dangerous to some degree,

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Speaker 1: but there's often a fair amount of danger associated with

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Speaker 1: the the fearful traditions around the world. They they have

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Speaker 1: a lot of power and you don't want to fall

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Speaker 1: on their bad side.

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Speaker 2: Especially not in a mine. Right, right.

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Speaker 1: Which, you know, because that's one of the things too,

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Speaker 1: it's like once you're in the mine, we've been describing

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Speaker 1: this environment to some degree already, like this is definitely

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Speaker 1: a place where we don't belong, where we're most definitely

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Speaker 1: infringing upon their world and their realm and their rules.

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Speaker 1: So it's this sort of, you know, mysterious or wild

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Speaker 1: place they might be found. And their temperament is also

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Speaker 1: always key because they might be anywhere from benevolent to

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Speaker 1: malevolent though they're often situated somewhere in between. They're not

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Speaker 1: always right in the middle, so they might be largely benign.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they can be wooed by humans with offerings and

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Speaker 1: so forth, or they might just be very easily offended.

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Speaker 1: And if you offend them, they might just have a

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Speaker 1: good laugh at your expense, or it might be the

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Speaker 1: end of you. They might play a joke, but just

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Speaker 1: how severe is that joke.

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Speaker 2: Going to be? Yeah, because a prank with mining equipment,

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Speaker 2: I mean, that might be just frustration and economic loss,

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Speaker 2: but that might also be death. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so we'll discuss, they might be like, you know,

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Speaker 1: it'd be funny, what if we did all the humans

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Speaker 1: work for them today? You just don't know exactly which

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Speaker 1: way it's going to fall, right? So just as there's

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Speaker 1: a fair amount of variety in just how they're going

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Speaker 1: to act towards humans, their exact origins vary wildly as well,

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Speaker 1: including everything from the idea of them being transformed humans

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Speaker 1: to personifications of natural phenomena, and in some cases, defeated

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Speaker 1: elder races or even cast down gods. Whatever their origins are,

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Speaker 1: generally they're cast in a place where there's some sort

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Speaker 1: of friction that occurs between their world and our world

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Speaker 1: where these two worlds meet. All right, given what we're

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Speaker 1: going to be discussing here in this episode, I think

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Speaker 1: it'd probably be helpful to start with a sort of predecessor,

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Speaker 1: and that is the tradition of the red caps and

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Speaker 1: the blue caps, both supernatural entities from the British Isles,

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Speaker 1: and to a certain degree elsewhere. given the sort of

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Speaker 1: the basic nature of these names.

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Speaker 2: Now, these are not necessarily always or even often, in

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Speaker 2: the case of the red cap, I understand, associated with mines,

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Speaker 2: but they have important tie-ins, I guess, especially the blue cap, right? Right, right.

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Speaker 1: And I think they're kind of like a nice example

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Speaker 1: of how we have like the non-mine-related entity, and then

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Speaker 1: it can sort of easily shift towards the mine. You know,

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Speaker 1: these are all ultimately, I guess, ideas that we ended

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Speaker 1: up taking with us, and then they changed with us,

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Speaker 1: depending on our work in these dangerous environments. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So in both of these cases, we're talking about caps.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about either like a literal cap that a

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Speaker 1: creature is wearing on its head that is colored a

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Speaker 1: certain color, or it is something like a cap that

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Speaker 1: you might think of more as a halo or an aura,

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Speaker 1: but we just describe it as a cap because, you know,

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Speaker 1: basically it's relatable. Everybody has a cap. Everybody wears a

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Speaker 1: cap from time to time. You know what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about if we describe something in those terms. And then Also,

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Speaker 1: they're just a wealth of traditions regarding caps that provide

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Speaker 1: various powers or carry with them curses. So caps are,

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Speaker 1: to a certain degree, inherently magical, at least in our

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Speaker 1: magical thinking. Yeah. So let's start with the red cap,

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Speaker 1: also known as bloody cap or red comb. This one

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Speaker 1: is one that many of you are probably familiar with

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Speaker 1: to some degree. I feel like I grew up looking

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Speaker 1: through various folklore books that had pictures or ideas of

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Speaker 1: what this creature looked like. And as Carol Rose describes

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Speaker 1: it in Spirits, Fairies, Leprechauns, and Goblins, the red cap

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Speaker 1: in its English usage is a largely evil spirit, sometimes

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Speaker 1: described as a hobgoblin, originating in the folk traditions of

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Speaker 1: the English-Scottish border country.

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Speaker 2: I'm mainly familiar with the red cap from a D &

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Speaker 2: D context, actually in Baldur's Gate 3, where they appear

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Speaker 2: as like a vicious, disgusting little David the Gnome. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be right. Viciousness seems key to how

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Speaker 1: they are depicted. They often appear as a hideous little

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Speaker 1: old man in iron boots and a red blood-soaked cap.

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Speaker 1: So his cap is blood because he keeps using it

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Speaker 1: to soak up blood, generally, I guess, like human blood,

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Speaker 1: and then wearing it on his head. So pretty gross,

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Speaker 1: pretty savage. Where do you find this entity? Well, it's

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Speaker 1: said to haunt old ruins and sites of historic bloodshed.

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Speaker 1: And if you venture near such places, it might just

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Speaker 1: kill you. That may be all there is to it.

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Speaker 1: And then use its cap to sop up your blood.

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Speaker 1: Unless you recite scripture at it and drive it away.

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Speaker 1: It's also said that if the blood of this creature's

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Speaker 1: cap ever dries, then it will shrivel up and die.

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Speaker 1: So almost kind of a cop-out. sensibility to it in

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Speaker 1: the sense that it has to keep some part of

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Speaker 1: itself damp. But this time it has to keep itself

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Speaker 1: damp with human blood.

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Speaker 2: So that's interesting because here it's like the vampire legend.

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Speaker 2: It's like the monster has a need of its own.

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Speaker 2: It's not just reacting to what you do. Like, it

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Speaker 2: needs blood. And so it's eager to get your blood.

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Speaker 2: It's not just punishing you for, say, crossing the threshold

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Speaker 2: of a ruined castle.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah. This one is definitely more malicious than a

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Speaker 1: lot of the, you know, the more sort of neutral

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Speaker 1: characters fair folk entities you'll encounter. Like this one is

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Speaker 1: actively nasty. And I mentioned English traditions because there are

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Speaker 1: also things called redcaps in other traditions. Like there's a

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Speaker 1: Dutch tradition of the redcap where the redcap is simply

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Speaker 1: a helpful household spirit, not sopping up blood. And I

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Speaker 1: should also point out there are a number of different

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Speaker 1: variations of the English redcap tale, some of which connect

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Speaker 1: the entity with the 14th century Scottish border noble, William

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Speaker 1: II de Soules. sometimes embellished as a villain who was

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Speaker 1: tutored in the black arts, with the imp Robin Redcap

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Speaker 1: serving as his familiar. And in some accounts, this cruel

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Speaker 1: lord is eventually boiled alive by the people who suffered

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Speaker 1: under him. And I've also read versions where the Redcap

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Speaker 1: creature is encased in lead and boiled. In reality, I'm

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Speaker 1: to understand, DeSoulis died in prison after allegedly playing his

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Speaker 1: part in a conspiracy against King Robert the Bruce. All right,

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Speaker 1: so that's red caps. Let's switch colors and let's go

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Speaker 1: to blue caps. And this will get us closer to

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Speaker 1: the mines. This is another spirit of English folklore, also

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Speaker 1: known as the blue bonnet. And this entity, according to

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Speaker 1: Carol Rose, was said to reside deep within the earth.

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Speaker 1: And you would only encounter it if you happen to

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Speaker 1: venture down into the mines, you know, labored in the

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Speaker 1: mines and reach some depth that humans wouldn't normally encounter.

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Speaker 1: And so this entity is often invisible, but it also

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Speaker 1: might manifest as a light blue flame. You know, this

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Speaker 1: kind of like halo effect, thus its name. And this

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Speaker 1: one wasn't nefarious at all, like polar opposite, really, compared

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Speaker 1: to the red cap. The blue cap would mimic human

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Speaker 1: miners and sometimes put in a full day's work. So

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Speaker 1: moving tubs of coal or ore around. And then the

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Speaker 1: miners would leave out carefully calculated offerings for the blue caps.

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Speaker 1: in thanks for their practice. Uh, you know, so this is, uh,

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Speaker 1: this one's got, this one's, this one really seems almost

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Speaker 1: downright benevolent and that you would tip your blue cap

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Speaker 1: and make sure that it kept occasionally doing this. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And as we're about to see the blue cap legend

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Speaker 2: here has a lot in common with other, um, well

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Speaker 2: explored mining spirits, specifically the one that I want to

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Speaker 2: focus on now for the rest of this episode, which

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Speaker 2: is the Tommy knocker, also known as the knocker or

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Speaker 2: the knacker.

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Speaker 1: This one, of course, I think a lot of us

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Speaker 1: are familiar with its name because we grew up having

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Speaker 1: some degree of familiarity with the gigantic Stephen King book

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Speaker 1: of the same name.

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Speaker 2: Does that book have anything to do with Tommy knockers? I.

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Speaker 1: I, It's been a very long time since I tried

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Speaker 1: to read it. This was like the first Stephen King

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Speaker 1: book that I read in junior high that I couldn't

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Speaker 1: actually finish. Maybe I would have a different experience if

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Speaker 1: I tried it now, but I think it is not

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Speaker 1: uncommon for people to have difficulty with this one.

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Speaker 2: I think King himself has somewhat disparaged it, hasn't he?

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Speaker 1: I believe so, yes. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, so to examine the Tommyknocker tradition, I want to

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Speaker 2: talk about an academic folklore article that I found really interesting,

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Speaker 2: which traces the historical evolution of the knocker or Tommyknocker

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Speaker 2: story from its origins among Cornish miners in the area

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Speaker 2: of Cornwall, which is in southwest England, the peninsula coming

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Speaker 2: down in southwest England out into the sea. So in

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Speaker 2: the area of Cornwall, and that goes back centuries. all

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Speaker 2: the way into 19th and 20th century beliefs of Cornish

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Speaker 2: immigrants and others working in mines in the American West.

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Speaker 2: This article is called Knockers, Knackers, and Ghosts, Immigrant Folklore

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Speaker 2: in the Western Mines, published in the journal Western Folklore

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Speaker 2: in 1992 by Ronald M. James. I looked up the

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Speaker 2: author here, and Ronald M. James is a historian and

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Speaker 2: folklorist who's been affiliated with with the University of Nevada,

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Speaker 2: Reno and Iowa State University. So the paper begins with

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Speaker 2: a great little vignette from the later evolution of the

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Speaker 2: Tommyknocker lore. It is a passage from the work of

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Speaker 2: an author named F.D. Calhoun, published in 1986, drawing on

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Speaker 2: his firsthand experience living in mining communities in Grass Valley,

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Speaker 2: California in the early 20th century. So Calhoun is in

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Speaker 2: the middle of talking about an illicit practice of some

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Speaker 2: miners at the time who think this was called high grading.

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Speaker 2: They would smuggle out high graded ore from the mines,

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Speaker 2: you know, pack it secretly somewhere on themselves, smuggle it out,

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Speaker 2: bring it home and then mill the ore in their

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Speaker 2: cellars at night. And of course, the milling of ore

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Speaker 2: is an important stage in the processing of raw minerals.

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Speaker 2: Usually it involves crushing ore. smashing or grinding down large

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Speaker 2: pieces of rock into a relatively fine powder. And this

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Speaker 2: increases the surface area of the desirable minerals, making them

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Speaker 2: easier to separate and extract from the parts of the

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Speaker 2: rock that you don't care about. And you might do

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Speaker 2: this several different ways. You know, it might involve just hammer,

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Speaker 2: you know, mortar and pestle of some kind or hammer

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Speaker 2: smashing on a surface or some kind of stamp mill.

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Speaker 2: But as you can imagine, This secret milling operation would

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Speaker 2: be noisy. It involved the pounding or stamping of hammers

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Speaker 2: or stamps. And this could lead children in the house

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Speaker 2: to wonder what their parents were up to. Why did

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Speaker 2: they hear repetitive hammer blows coming from the basement when

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Speaker 2: they were trying to sleep? And according to Calhoun, these

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Speaker 2: parents would often blame the commotion on the Tommyknockers. So

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Speaker 2: to quote from Calhoun here, Supposedly, the little miners gathered

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Speaker 2: under the house where children were especially good. If they

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Speaker 2: listened and were real quiet after they had gone to

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Speaker 2: bed and were supposed to be going to sleep, they

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Speaker 2: just might hear their little miners. friends hammering away with

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Speaker 2: their tiny single jacks. It is surprising how many residents

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Speaker 2: of the mining town still tell of being lulled to

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Speaker 2: sleep by the rhythmical pounding from deep below. If the

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Speaker 2: rock was especially hard and the pounding unusually loud, The

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Speaker 2: children were told that the Tommyknockers must have been using

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Speaker 2: double jacks the evening before.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Adorable.

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Speaker 1: This is adorable and ridiculous at the same time.

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Speaker 2: So James says that Calhoun's account, of course, presents some

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Speaker 2: difficulties to the folklorist because he doesn't give exact dates

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Speaker 2: here and he doesn't like name specific people or cite sources.

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Speaker 2: But it can be taken as some evidence for the

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Speaker 2: late evolution of the Tommyknocker concept in early 20th century California.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So by this point, according to Calhoun's telling, the Tommyknocker

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Speaker 2: had come to be used, among other roles, as what

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Speaker 2: James calls a fict, citing the terminology of the folklorist

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Speaker 2: Carl Wilhelm von Sydow, actually father of the actor Max

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Speaker 2: von Sydow. but which is told as if true. In

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Speaker 2: other words, a fict is intended to be understood as

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Speaker 2: true by the audience, but understood as fictional by the teller.

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Speaker 2: And this is distinguished from legends, which would be third-person

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Speaker 2: stories that are sincerely believed by the teller and expected

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Speaker 2: to be believed by the audience. And then fairy tales

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Speaker 2: or folk tales, which are third-person stories that are understood

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Speaker 2: by both teller and audience as fictional. Because of this

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Speaker 2: asymmetry in the relationship here, ficts are often told by

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Speaker 2: adults to children. And a great example would be nursery

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Speaker 2: bogeys such as Jenny Greenteeth. Presumably, Grandpa does not actually

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Speaker 2: believe that there is a hag living in the water

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Speaker 2: that will pull you down by the ankle. But he

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Speaker 2: knows that the standing water is actually dangerous for less

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Speaker 2: mentally gripping reasons. So he tells the story of Jenny

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Speaker 2: Greenteeth in the hopes that it will stick in the

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Speaker 2: child's head and get them to stay away.

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Speaker 1: A fict, as you might imagine, is a little bit

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Speaker 1: like a lie.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but it's a lie that takes the form of

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Speaker 2: a story. Now, of course, the Tommyknockers in Calhoun's example

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Speaker 2: are not exactly bogeys like Jenny Greenteeth. There are no

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Speaker 2: threats in this story, but they are a supernatural explanation

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Speaker 2: told to believing children by unbelieving adults. To get them

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Speaker 2: to stay away from dangerous knowledge, in this case, the

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Speaker 2: knowledge that their parents are doing something illegal.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah. And kind of rewarding them because the term

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Speaker 1: the terminology there was the exact description was something along

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Speaker 1: the lines of like this only happens in houses where

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Speaker 1: the children are really good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You're very fortunate that the Tommyknockers are here.

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Speaker 2: So James says by this point, the Tommyknocker had drifted

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Speaker 2: very far from its earliest known form. And studying this

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Speaker 2: evolution is actually a pretty fascinating exercise that can help

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Speaker 2: us understand how folklore is affected by the immigration process,

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Speaker 2: the immigration of storytellers to new locales, the diffusion of

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Speaker 2: folklore between different ethnic groups, and also how folklore is

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Speaker 2: affected by cultural and technological changes across time. How, for example,

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Speaker 2: Changes in mining techniques and technology lead to changes in

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Speaker 2: what sort of entities haunt the mines. So the belief

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Speaker 2: in supernatural beings that live within mines seems to be

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Speaker 2: quite widespread, as we were just talking about. And we

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Speaker 2: will talk about more examples from different cultures in part

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Speaker 2: two of this series. But James says that the form

401
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Speaker 2: this creature most often takes in European traditions is supernatural.

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Speaker 2: some sort of diminutive old man who makes mischief and

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Speaker 2: plays tricks and either provides useful information to miners, and

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Speaker 2: this could be leading them to riches or warning them

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Speaker 2: of imminent danger and death, or the mining spirit punishes transgressions, defilements,

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Speaker 2: and evil deeds within the mine.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting to think about the role a trickster

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Speaker 1: plays in a dangerous environment that has certain rules. about

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Speaker 1: safety rules in place. And I wonder how much of

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00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:18,369
Speaker 1: this is sort of like, okay, if everything goes according

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Speaker 1: to plan, you don't have anything to worry about. But

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Speaker 1: the idea that the trickster spirit is there puts enough

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Speaker 1: doubt that maybe you double and triple check things as

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Speaker 1: they occur.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It might lead to added scrutiny, which is good.

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Speaker 2: In that case, it would almost be like the Jenny Greenteeth.

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Speaker 2: It's like there are real practical dangers you need to

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Speaker 2: be concerned of, but thinking about this entity causes you

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Speaker 2: to behave more cautiously because an entity is more mentally

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Speaker 2: gripping than real life accidental danger.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's more like an active threat as opposed to

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Speaker 1: the threat of the thing you didn't think about, the

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Speaker 1: thing you didn't know to be afraid of.

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Speaker 2: Right. So the 16th century German mineralogist and metallurgist Georgius Agricola,

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Speaker 2: who lived 1494 to 1555, wrote extensively on beliefs about

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Speaker 2: entities that lurked in mines in a work called De

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00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:17,490
Speaker 2: Animantibus Subterraneous, or Of the Underground Animals, the Subterranean Animals.

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Speaker 2: We may come back to this work in part two

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Speaker 2: of the series. I'm not sure yet, but it's likely.

430
00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:26,270
Speaker 2: But speaking of a German creature known to him as Kobolos,

431
00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:29,110
Speaker 2: or I think this would be the equivalent of the kobold,

432
00:25:30,790 --> 00:25:34,430
Speaker 2: Agricola wrote that the creature was jolly and loved to

433
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: imitate human work, like what you were saying with the

434
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: blue cap. So there's a lot of similarities in these

435
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:44,820
Speaker 2: different European mining creature legends. To read from a translation

436
00:25:44,859 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 2: of Agricola, quote, they are called little miners because of

437
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,379
Speaker 2: their dwarfish stature, which is about two feet. They are

438
00:25:52,460 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 2: venerable looking and are clothed like miners in a filleted

439
00:25:55,940 --> 00:25:59,290
Speaker 2: garment with a leather apron about their loins. This kind

440
00:25:59,350 --> 00:26:02,490
Speaker 2: does not often trouble the miners, but they idle about

441
00:26:02,550 --> 00:26:05,510
Speaker 2: in the shafts and tunnels and really do nothing, although

442
00:26:05,550 --> 00:26:08,270
Speaker 2: they pretend to be busy in all kinds of labor,

443
00:26:08,690 --> 00:26:11,949
Speaker 2: sometimes digging ore, sometimes putting into buckets that which has

444
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:15,390
Speaker 2: been dug. Sometimes they throw pebbles at workmen, but they

445
00:26:15,490 --> 00:26:19,630
Speaker 2: rarely injure them unless the workmen first ridicule or curse them.

446
00:26:20,550 --> 00:26:23,230
Speaker 2: the mining gnomes are especially active in the workings where

447
00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:26,090
Speaker 2: metal has already been found or where there are hopes

448
00:26:26,150 --> 00:26:30,670
Speaker 2: of discovering them and cause them to labor more vigorously.

449
00:26:31,450 --> 00:26:36,580
Speaker 2: So that's kind of interesting. They're more concentrated in hot zones,

450
00:26:36,619 --> 00:26:39,899
Speaker 2: you know, in places where there's likely to be a

451
00:26:39,940 --> 00:26:42,379
Speaker 2: big discovery or where a big discovery of ore has

452
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,420
Speaker 2: already been made, which is an interesting contrast to, other

453
00:26:47,460 --> 00:26:49,780
Speaker 2: stories that would, you know, imagine the creature in the

454
00:26:49,820 --> 00:26:52,619
Speaker 2: mine as the one that lurks in the abandoned mine.

455
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,219
Speaker 2: This is exactly the opposite. It's like, you know, the

456
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:57,810
Speaker 2: economic hot zone of the mine is where these things

457
00:26:57,869 --> 00:26:58,330
Speaker 2: show up.

458
00:26:59,750 --> 00:27:02,470
Speaker 1: I love this detail that, yeah, they might do humans

459
00:27:02,530 --> 00:27:04,649
Speaker 1: work for them, but they also just might sort of

460
00:27:04,710 --> 00:27:06,290
Speaker 1: pretend to do work. Yeah.

461
00:27:06,970 --> 00:27:10,210
Speaker 2: Look busy. Yeah. So this paper is focused on a

462
00:27:10,290 --> 00:27:15,150
Speaker 2: particular version of this widespread mining creature tradition that emerged

463
00:27:15,210 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: among Cornish miners in the southwest of England, as I

464
00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:22,690
Speaker 2: said earlier, where the creatures were known as Tommyknockers, Knockers,

465
00:27:22,830 --> 00:27:26,649
Speaker 2: or Knackers. James says that the name Knocker may have

466
00:27:26,710 --> 00:27:29,350
Speaker 2: originally been more widespread, but it really came to be

467
00:27:29,390 --> 00:27:33,629
Speaker 2: associated with Cornish legend in particular, as mining was a

468
00:27:33,670 --> 00:27:37,890
Speaker 2: common occupation for Cornish men, and the region of Cornwall

469
00:27:37,930 --> 00:27:41,459
Speaker 2: itself had been a very important mining hub going back

470
00:27:41,500 --> 00:28:12,380
Speaker 2: to ancient times, actually. Specifically, Cornwall was Mm-hmm. So these

471
00:28:12,430 --> 00:28:15,780
Speaker 2: big civilizations that are producing a lot of bronze artifacts

472
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 2: during the Bronze Age, a lot of times they might

473
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,899
Speaker 2: be sourcing their tin from very far away. And so

474
00:28:20,940 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: they're relying on a lot of trade to support that

475
00:28:24,540 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 2: bronze industry. So getting into the early records we have

476
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,859
Speaker 2: about what the Cornish knockers were, James compares several sources.

477
00:28:34,820 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: Many of these authors are what he calls 19th century

478
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,850
Speaker 2: or turn of the 20th century antiquarians, collectors of you know,

479
00:28:42,990 --> 00:28:48,010
Speaker 2: of piece of antiques or of intangible antiques like folklore.

480
00:28:48,570 --> 00:28:51,930
Speaker 2: So these include a folklore collector named William Buttrell, who

481
00:28:51,970 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: lived 1816 to 1881, who wrote a column for the

482
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,700
Speaker 2: Cornish Telegraph in which he documented local folk traditions. James

483
00:29:00,740 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: also names a 19th century writer named Robert Hunt and

484
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,430
Speaker 2: a slightly later writer named Walter Yeeling Evans Wentz. And

485
00:29:08,450 --> 00:29:11,090
Speaker 2: then after that, there are also some later likely derivative

486
00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:14,890
Speaker 2: sources and some literary references to Tommyknockers in fiction, which

487
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:18,690
Speaker 2: we can mention in a bit. But to generalize from

488
00:29:18,730 --> 00:29:22,620
Speaker 2: what we have, here's what we know about the Cornish Tommyknockers,

489
00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:27,820
Speaker 2: the older version. They were usually described as supernatural dwarf-like

490
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,610
Speaker 2: men with long gray beards and wrinkled faces. Their name,

491
00:29:32,950 --> 00:29:36,500
Speaker 2: as you might guess, comes from the knocking and tapping

492
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,900
Speaker 2: sounds of uncertain origin that you would often hear propagating

493
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:46,550
Speaker 2: through mine tunnels. They were widely regarded as mischievous, playing pranks,

494
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,870
Speaker 2: causing trouble and fouling equipment. So that's in line with

495
00:29:49,890 --> 00:29:53,290
Speaker 2: some other things we've talked about. But in some cases,

496
00:29:53,450 --> 00:29:55,850
Speaker 2: especially if you knew how to butter them up and

497
00:29:55,910 --> 00:29:59,300
Speaker 2: get on their good side, they could be quite helpful. Now,

498
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,180
Speaker 2: here's a very strange twist on the legend. Basically, all

499
00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:07,290
Speaker 2: of the early Cornish sources agree on an origin story

500
00:30:07,470 --> 00:30:10,930
Speaker 2: for the knockers, and it is this. They were said

501
00:30:11,010 --> 00:30:15,430
Speaker 2: to be the ghosts or spirits of Jewish people who

502
00:30:15,470 --> 00:30:19,060
Speaker 2: had been sent to work in the Cornish mines, either

503
00:30:19,340 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: in the ancient past during the Roman period or perhaps

504
00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:26,110
Speaker 2: in the Middle Ages. as some sort of punishment for

505
00:30:26,150 --> 00:30:30,030
Speaker 2: having been responsible in the minds of their Christian persecutors

506
00:30:30,410 --> 00:30:33,910
Speaker 2: for the death of Christ. Now, according to James, there

507
00:30:34,010 --> 00:30:38,350
Speaker 2: is basically no evidence for this belief that Jews were

508
00:30:38,370 --> 00:30:41,350
Speaker 2: sent to work in the Cornish mines during the Roman

509
00:30:41,390 --> 00:30:46,500
Speaker 2: period or during the Middle Ages. No evidence this actually happened.

510
00:30:47,070 --> 00:30:50,870
Speaker 2: Of course, Jews certainly were persecuted in various ways by

511
00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:54,810
Speaker 2: Christians throughout Europe in the medieval period, but there's no

512
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:58,700
Speaker 2: evidence this ever involved work in Cornish mines. So it's

513
00:30:58,740 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 2: not entirely clear where this latter belief about the origins

514
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: of the knockers came from. despite the fact that this

515
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,980
Speaker 2: has no basis in history, the origin story appears widespread

516
00:31:09,020 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: and a very important part of the legend. So it's

517
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: not just like something that one person said at one time.

518
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,420
Speaker 2: This seems to be a common belief about the Tommyknockers.

519
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,140
Speaker 1: And of course it does, you know, we can compare

520
00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:23,340
Speaker 1: this to various other traditions where some other culture or

521
00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: other people is in some way transformed into a folkloric

522
00:31:28,380 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: entity of some sort. And, you know, even getting back

523
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,380
Speaker 1: to stuff like the Tuatha Dé Danann, you know, saying

524
00:31:33,420 --> 00:31:36,550
Speaker 1: that they were like a, you know, connections between that

525
00:31:36,610 --> 00:31:38,510
Speaker 1: belief and some sort of a fair folk and some

526
00:31:38,550 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: sort of a perhaps, you know, predecessor culture and so forth.

527
00:31:43,580 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: Well, this is interesting. One of the other, I mean,

528
00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:49,220
Speaker 2: one of the only other explanations of the origin of

529
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: the Tommyknockers, this is not nearly as widespread, but is

530
00:31:53,220 --> 00:31:55,430
Speaker 2: the claim that they are the spirits of people who

531
00:31:55,510 --> 00:31:57,910
Speaker 2: inhabited the lands of Cornwall before the Celts.

532
00:31:58,650 --> 00:32:02,370
Speaker 1: Yes, that would definitely tie in with various other traditions

533
00:32:02,410 --> 00:32:04,050
Speaker 1: you find, especially throughout the British Isles.

534
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,620
Speaker 2: One version of this origin story, the Jewish miners' origin story,

535
00:32:08,660 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: appears in a novel from 1851 called Yeast, a Problem

536
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,450
Speaker 2: by the English priest and social reformer Charles Kingsley. In

537
00:32:18,490 --> 00:32:21,930
Speaker 2: this book, a Cornish character explains what the knockers are

538
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:25,670
Speaker 2: to another character by saying, quote, They are the ghosts

539
00:32:25,810 --> 00:32:29,230
Speaker 2: the miners hold of the old Jews, sir, that crucified

540
00:32:29,290 --> 00:32:32,090
Speaker 2: our Lord and were sent for slaves by the Roman

541
00:32:32,190 --> 00:32:35,420
Speaker 2: emperors to work the mines. And we find their old

542
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,219
Speaker 2: smelting houses, which we call Jews' houses, and their blocks

543
00:32:39,290 --> 00:32:41,890
Speaker 2: of tin at the bottom of the great bogs, which

544
00:32:41,930 --> 00:32:45,970
Speaker 2: we call Jews' tin. As a point of historical fact,

545
00:32:46,030 --> 00:32:48,710
Speaker 2: by the way, it was, of course, the Roman authorities

546
00:32:48,770 --> 00:32:53,210
Speaker 2: under Pontius Pilate who crucified Jesus, not the Jews. However,

547
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,500
Speaker 2: setting aside whatever anti-Jewish attitudes may be contained in this

548
00:32:57,620 --> 00:33:01,390
Speaker 2: ideological myth, It's interesting to note the way that the

549
00:33:01,970 --> 00:33:07,190
Speaker 2: physical artifacts of prior industry feed into beliefs about supernatural

550
00:33:07,270 --> 00:33:11,310
Speaker 2: beings that occupy the same space. What is in fact

551
00:33:11,390 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 2: the remains of mundane mining from decades or centuries ago

552
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: becomes either the physical imprint of work from a mythic past,

553
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:24,580
Speaker 2: you know, done by people who you imagine were there

554
00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: but were not actually there, Or from a ghostly present.

555
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,900
Speaker 2: It's like this is the stuff left behind by the

556
00:33:29,940 --> 00:33:34,750
Speaker 2: supernatural creatures now. You know, that connection between physical artifacts

557
00:33:35,370 --> 00:33:38,750
Speaker 2: left by real people in the past to supernatural beings

558
00:33:38,830 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: reminds me of our series on Elfshot.

559
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. How do we make sense of these artifacts? Yeah,

560
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,100
Speaker 1: people from the past or... something a little bit different,

561
00:33:49,220 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: people that we just can't see, people that are hidden

562
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:53,010
Speaker 1: from us.

563
00:33:53,340 --> 00:33:57,630
Speaker 2: James notes several ways in which common beliefs among the

564
00:33:57,670 --> 00:34:01,410
Speaker 2: Cornish miners about the knockers both do and do not

565
00:34:01,550 --> 00:34:06,310
Speaker 2: match this ahistorical origin story. The knockers were said to

566
00:34:06,570 --> 00:34:09,790
Speaker 2: not work on Saturdays because it was their Sabbath, but

567
00:34:09,969 --> 00:34:12,510
Speaker 2: also it was said that they did not work on Easter,

568
00:34:12,670 --> 00:34:16,569
Speaker 2: All Saints Day, or Christmas. Uh, on Christmas, it was

569
00:34:16,610 --> 00:34:19,610
Speaker 2: said that they sang carols and held mass deep at

570
00:34:19,630 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: the bottom of the mine.

571
00:34:20,660 --> 00:34:23,980
Speaker 1: Ooh, I do love a good Christmas mass held by, um,

572
00:34:24,219 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: non-human entities.

573
00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:28,219
Speaker 2: Yes. We did episodes on that at one point, didn't we?

574
00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. About the undead.

575
00:34:29,739 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 2: The, the, the pious undead. Yes. Having Christmas mass.

576
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

577
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: Oh, that was fun. I just had to look it up.

578
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: I was remembering the story of Bishop Teatmar.

579
00:34:38,980 --> 00:34:42,940
Speaker 1: Oh, Teatmar. Okay. I do. I remember that name now.

580
00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Tietmar of Merseburg, I think, and who talked about

581
00:34:48,260 --> 00:34:50,460
Speaker 2: the undead, the zombies going to church.

582
00:35:02,170 --> 00:35:02,330
Speaker 1: So.

583
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: Also, the Tommyknockers did not like when miners whistled and

584
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,580
Speaker 2: did not like being spied on. Sometimes miners would be

585
00:35:10,940 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: overcome by curiosity and would want to watch the Tommyknockers

586
00:35:14,660 --> 00:35:15,700
Speaker 2: work and spy on them.

587
00:35:16,530 --> 00:35:19,709
Speaker 1: Yeah. Frequent thing not to do with the Fair Folk.

588
00:35:19,790 --> 00:35:21,910
Speaker 1: Do not go spying on them. They don't want you to.

589
00:35:22,250 --> 00:35:27,030
Speaker 2: Right. Despite being the ghosts of people, they were described

590
00:35:27,070 --> 00:35:30,910
Speaker 2: as having many things in common with other she figures

591
00:35:31,030 --> 00:35:34,210
Speaker 2: such as elves and fairies. So this is something I

592
00:35:34,469 --> 00:35:37,370
Speaker 2: think I'll probably mention several times here. There's a fuzziness

593
00:35:37,450 --> 00:35:41,569
Speaker 2: about whether are these ghosts of people or are they

594
00:35:41,650 --> 00:35:47,380
Speaker 2: like another species, these she beings, these fairy folk. And

595
00:35:47,410 --> 00:35:49,900
Speaker 2: I think that question is just sort of hard to

596
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,819
Speaker 2: answer because I think often there actually was a blurriness

597
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,690
Speaker 2: between these concepts. These fairy folk were often said in

598
00:35:56,830 --> 00:36:00,010
Speaker 2: one way to actually be spirits of people from long ago,

599
00:36:01,130 --> 00:36:04,290
Speaker 2: even though they were treated as basically a magical species

600
00:36:04,370 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 2: that wasn't quite human. James explains this fuzziness by saying, quote,

601
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,819
Speaker 2: Thus the She, the above-ground fairies of Ireland, are often

602
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: associated with the ancient tribes displaced by the Celts. The

603
00:36:17,620 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: Tommyknockers can be understood as underground elves who attracted the

604
00:36:21,860 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: array of legends and beliefs associated with ancient Jewish miners.

605
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 2: Like many other European supernatural beings, the Tommyknockers show a

606
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,660
Speaker 2: muddling of the distinction between ghosts, particularly the long dead,

607
00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:38,340
Speaker 2: and elves. So yeah, it could be a kind of

608
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: collision of different traditions here. Maybe you've got an underground

609
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,820
Speaker 2: elf-like creature or fairy-type creature who lives in the mines.

610
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,900
Speaker 2: And then you also have this folklore tradition, this story

611
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,180
Speaker 2: about Jewish miners in Cornwall and people long ago. And

612
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,420
Speaker 2: then people just kind of combine these stories.

613
00:36:57,860 --> 00:36:58,170
Speaker 1: Yeah.

614
00:36:58,790 --> 00:37:02,270
Speaker 2: So what did the original Cornish knockers do? Well, it

615
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:04,529
Speaker 2: seems a lot of the stories about them focused on

616
00:37:04,570 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: their reactions to the behavior of human miners. Usually, if

617
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 2: you were respectful to them and you were well-behaved, you

618
00:37:13,820 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: treated them with courtesy, and you obeyed the general rules

619
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 2: of good behavior, they would either leave you alone or

620
00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 2: they would even be very helpful. They might lead you

621
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,180
Speaker 2: to riches. But if you were nasty or neglectful to

622
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,549
Speaker 2: the spirits, or if you were just a bad person

623
00:37:30,610 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: in one way or another, the knockers would get revenge.

624
00:37:34,969 --> 00:37:36,790
Speaker 2: There are a number of stories featured here. I'm going

625
00:37:36,810 --> 00:37:39,630
Speaker 2: to mention a few that James brings up. There's the

626
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 2: story of the Cornish miner Tom Trevorrow, collected by William

627
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: Betrell in the 19th century. So in this story, Tom,

628
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: for some reason, got angry at the knockers in the mine,

629
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: and he ordered them to be quiet. In fact, he

630
00:37:53,940 --> 00:37:57,510
Speaker 2: spoke harshly to them, saying that if they did not

631
00:37:57,590 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 2: shut up, he would, quote, scat their brains out. Also,

632
00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:04,620
Speaker 2: Tom is having some supper in the mine or around

633
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,820
Speaker 2: the mine, and his supper is a kind of Cornish

634
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,460
Speaker 2: baked good called a Fuggan, F-U-G-G-A-N, which appears to be

635
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,950
Speaker 2: some kind of heavy cake or pastry, maybe often packed

636
00:38:14,989 --> 00:38:19,350
Speaker 2: with meat inside. They wanted some. He refused to share

637
00:38:19,390 --> 00:38:22,490
Speaker 2: his food with them. And this was also a no-no,

638
00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:26,210
Speaker 2: because sharing a food offering with hobgoblins, brownies, and other

639
00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:28,950
Speaker 2: household spirits was a common practice in the British Isles.

640
00:38:29,380 --> 00:38:31,779
Speaker 2: You might set out a dish of milk by the

641
00:38:31,820 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 2: hearth for the hobgoblin or the household spirit. And so

642
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,779
Speaker 2: the knockers, they sing in a rhyme to Tom. They say,

643
00:38:38,820 --> 00:38:42,990
Speaker 2: Tom Trevorrow, Tom Trevorrow, leave some of thy fuggin' for

644
00:38:43,070 --> 00:38:46,430
Speaker 2: Bucca or bad luck to thee tomorrow. I think it's

645
00:38:46,450 --> 00:38:51,650
Speaker 2: kind of rhyming Trevorrow with tomorrow. By the way, Bucca, B-U-C-C-A,

646
00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:55,589
Speaker 2: is another type of Cornish spirit, which is occasionally associated

647
00:38:55,630 --> 00:38:59,410
Speaker 2: with mines, but more often with the sea, actually. Here,

648
00:38:59,430 --> 00:39:01,870
Speaker 2: there seems to be some overlap between the Bucca and

649
00:39:01,890 --> 00:39:05,410
Speaker 2: the Knockers, but they're both, again, mythical beings that can

650
00:39:05,430 --> 00:39:10,410
Speaker 2: kind of blur together. Anyway, the Knockers or the Bucca,

651
00:39:10,469 --> 00:39:12,310
Speaker 2: they want some of that cake, but Tom is like, no,

652
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,890
Speaker 2: this is my cake. And the Knockers said again, Tommy Trevorrow,

653
00:39:15,969 --> 00:39:19,930
Speaker 2: Tommy Trevorrow will send thee bad luck tomorrow. Thou old curmudgeon,

654
00:39:20,060 --> 00:39:22,790
Speaker 2: eat all thy fuggin and not leave a digin for Bucca.

655
00:39:22,980 --> 00:39:27,430
Speaker 2: Digin means a little piece, I think, like a crumb.

656
00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:29,950
Speaker 2: But still. he refused. So the knockers cursed him. And

657
00:39:29,969 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: after that, he had no luck finding riches in the mines.

658
00:39:31,870 --> 00:39:33,190
Speaker 2: And then James says, Folks, we've said it time and

659
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:51,310
Speaker 2: time again. Always tip your goblin. How hungry are you

660
00:39:51,330 --> 00:39:53,830
Speaker 2: that you can't even spare a Dijon for Bucca? Yeah,

661
00:39:53,850 --> 00:39:54,510
Speaker 2: just a Dijon.

662
00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:55,669
Speaker 1: That's all he's asking for.

663
00:39:56,870 --> 00:39:59,650
Speaker 2: So there's another story. It's a famous one about a

664
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,910
Speaker 2: guy named Barker who discovers an old mine with an

665
00:40:02,989 --> 00:40:05,660
Speaker 2: opening where he can watch the knockers working below. Yeah,

666
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,140
Speaker 2: that's oh, that's how you get into trouble. He believes

667
00:40:11,260 --> 00:40:13,500
Speaker 2: that they can't see him. They don't know he's there.

668
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,700
Speaker 2: So he spies on them until the end of work

669
00:40:15,820 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: one day. At which point the knockers each start calling

670
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:21,180
Speaker 2: out that they're going to leave a tool. You know,

671
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,740
Speaker 2: I'm going to leave my hammer on the, on the chair,

672
00:40:23,820 --> 00:40:25,530
Speaker 2: you know, saying where they're going to leave a tool.

673
00:40:26,110 --> 00:40:28,569
Speaker 2: And then finally the last one says, I'll put my

674
00:40:28,650 --> 00:40:32,529
Speaker 2: hammer on Barker's knee. And suddenly Barker felt a great

675
00:40:32,590 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 2: pain in the knee and he was never able to

676
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 2: walk on that leg again. Wow. So the knockers knew

677
00:40:38,580 --> 00:40:41,819
Speaker 2: he had been spying and they punished his curiosity. And

678
00:40:41,890 --> 00:40:45,219
Speaker 2: so among the Cornish miners, if you had arthritis, you

679
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: could say, I'm as stiff as Barker's knee. That was

680
00:40:47,739 --> 00:40:51,660
Speaker 2: a kind of saying. Another legend recorded by Robert Hunt

681
00:40:51,739 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 2: has elements of both reward and punishment. This time the

682
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,439
Speaker 2: punishment is for greed. So the story goes like this.

683
00:40:58,780 --> 00:41:03,140
Speaker 2: An old Cornish miner and his son named Trenwith witnessed

684
00:41:03,260 --> 00:41:05,890
Speaker 2: knockers hauling very good ore up to the surface of

685
00:41:05,950 --> 00:41:09,210
Speaker 2: a mine that they haunted. And the miners made a

686
00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: deal with the knockers. If the miners could be allowed

687
00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:16,469
Speaker 2: to work the knockers' mine, they would give the knockers 10%

688
00:41:16,469 --> 00:41:20,230
Speaker 2: of their profits. The knockers agreed, and things went well

689
00:41:20,410 --> 00:41:24,030
Speaker 2: until the father died and left Trenwith in charge, his son.

690
00:41:24,650 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 2: Trenwith is described in the story as selfish and avaricious,

691
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:30,660
Speaker 2: and he decides he's going to cheat the knockers and

692
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,740
Speaker 2: keep all the profit for himself. That's such a bad idea.

693
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,220
Speaker 2: The knockers, of course they know that he did that.

694
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,630
Speaker 2: They curse him, and he loses all his luck. And then, quote,

695
00:41:40,770 --> 00:41:43,490
Speaker 2: he took to drink, squandered all the money his father

696
00:41:43,530 --> 00:41:48,540
Speaker 2: had made, and died a beggar. Interesting thing in several

697
00:41:48,580 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: of the stories here, the knocker's magical attack against offenders

698
00:41:53,580 --> 00:41:57,420
Speaker 2: and enemies is not a direct attack, but an attack

699
00:41:57,700 --> 00:42:01,950
Speaker 2: on luck. You cross them and you will henceforth have

700
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,590
Speaker 2: bad luck in the mine or just bad luck in general.

701
00:42:06,140 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: So now that you've crossed the knockers, you are just

702
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,460
Speaker 2: rolling natural ones on all your attempts to find valuable

703
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 2: caches and veins. And usually this ends up with you

704
00:42:15,940 --> 00:42:19,339
Speaker 2: having to leave mining as a profession and end up

705
00:42:19,420 --> 00:42:23,859
Speaker 2: in some other revolting fate, apparently including farming. But this

706
00:42:23,910 --> 00:42:26,750
Speaker 2: brings us to the second part of the story, which

707
00:42:26,850 --> 00:42:30,350
Speaker 2: is the question of how the characteristics of the Tommyknocker

708
00:42:30,390 --> 00:42:33,510
Speaker 2: legend change when it is carried over into new locales

709
00:42:33,570 --> 00:42:37,180
Speaker 2: and new cultures. So in the 19th century, lots of

710
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 2: Cornish people immigrated to the United States, where they became

711
00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:44,339
Speaker 2: very important in the fledgling Western mining industry, despite their

712
00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:48,899
Speaker 2: relatively small proportion to the overall workforce. This immigration was

713
00:42:49,020 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: in part driven by economic changes. Apparently at the end

714
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815, there was a substantial

715
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,940
Speaker 2: decline in the price of copper and tin, the two

716
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: metals that formed the backbone of the Cornish mining industry.

717
00:43:02,420 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 2: And also, after thousands of years of mining at this point,

718
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: many of the most exploitable known deposits had already been

719
00:43:09,540 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: heavily extracted. So, you know, you've got your depleting caches

720
00:43:14,510 --> 00:43:17,750
Speaker 2: and the price is going down. On top of that,

721
00:43:17,830 --> 00:43:22,430
Speaker 2: beginning in the 1820s, there was a general economic depression

722
00:43:22,489 --> 00:43:26,050
Speaker 2: in southwest England that affected basically everyone, whatever their trade.

723
00:43:26,590 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: So metal mining in Cornwall appeared to be a declining prospect.

724
00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: But experienced mine workers could take their skills to new opportunities,

725
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,140
Speaker 2: such as digging tin and copper in Michigan in the

726
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:45,250
Speaker 2: United States or digging for gold or other metals in California, Colorado, Utah, Montana.

727
00:43:46,510 --> 00:43:49,950
Speaker 2: And so Cornish immigrant miners in the western United States

728
00:43:49,989 --> 00:43:53,150
Speaker 2: were often called Cousin Jacks. I think the origin story

729
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:55,569
Speaker 2: of this is that, you know, the boss at the

730
00:43:55,610 --> 00:43:58,370
Speaker 2: mine would say, we need more workers. You know, can

731
00:43:58,410 --> 00:44:01,150
Speaker 2: you bring some more people like you? And they would say, yeah,

732
00:44:01,170 --> 00:44:03,290
Speaker 2: I've got a cousin Jack back in Cornwall we can

733
00:44:03,330 --> 00:44:07,390
Speaker 2: bring over. Now note that there were different extraction methods

734
00:44:07,570 --> 00:44:11,450
Speaker 2: used at the time for various metals. There was placer mining,

735
00:44:11,810 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: which is where you're searching for ore and maybe loose

736
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: gravel or soil in a stream bed, open pit mining,

737
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 2: and then also underground hard rock mining, the kind of

738
00:44:21,260 --> 00:44:24,510
Speaker 2: tunneling mining. And the latter was the method with which

739
00:44:24,620 --> 00:44:29,190
Speaker 2: the Cornish had the most valuable experience. Other forms of

740
00:44:29,230 --> 00:44:32,980
Speaker 2: mining were could better make use of inexperienced labor in, say,

741
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,899
Speaker 2: an open pit mine. And it's interesting, I think, that

742
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,430
Speaker 2: the type of mining with which the Cornish had relevant experience,

743
00:44:41,570 --> 00:44:45,630
Speaker 2: deep hard rock tunneling, is the kind that is, facially

744
00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:48,469
Speaker 2: at least, most likely to give rise to legends and

745
00:44:48,510 --> 00:44:52,530
Speaker 2: supernatural beings for the obvious environmental reasons. You've got dark,

746
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 2: creepy tunnels, echoes and bizarre sound phenomena everywhere. And also

747
00:44:57,340 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 2: lethal dangers due to cave-ins, gas, and all kinds of stuff.

748
00:45:02,170 --> 00:45:09,370
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just like the full array of sensory experiences

749
00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:12,450
Speaker 1: and dangers that are going to really sort of pressure

750
00:45:12,510 --> 00:45:13,930
Speaker 1: cook any kind of belief.

751
00:45:14,270 --> 00:45:15,969
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so as a result of the way they

752
00:45:16,050 --> 00:45:19,509
Speaker 2: fit into the need for the mining labor force, the

753
00:45:19,590 --> 00:45:23,970
Speaker 2: Cornish culture actually contributed greatly to to the emerging mine

754
00:45:24,030 --> 00:45:27,700
Speaker 2: labor culture of the American West. And James mentions a

755
00:45:27,739 --> 00:45:31,980
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff here, such as cuisine. Apparently, in the

756
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:35,700
Speaker 2: mining West, there was a big popularity of Cornish pasties,

757
00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:38,700
Speaker 2: which is a type of savory turnover, often filled with

758
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,220
Speaker 2: meat and vegetables. And this wasn't just with the Cornish.

759
00:45:42,260 --> 00:45:45,950
Speaker 2: This became popular with miners of all ethnic backgrounds. There

760
00:45:45,969 --> 00:45:49,190
Speaker 2: was a techno culture that was imported where mines in

761
00:45:49,210 --> 00:45:52,270
Speaker 2: the American West used a particular kind of water pump

762
00:45:52,469 --> 00:45:56,660
Speaker 2: that was common in Cornish mines. There's something called Cornish

763
00:45:56,820 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: wrestling popular among Western miners. I didn't have time to

764
00:46:00,020 --> 00:46:01,820
Speaker 2: look that up, so I don't know how that's different

765
00:46:01,860 --> 00:46:02,860
Speaker 2: from other wrestling.

766
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,340
Speaker 1: I mean, just about every culture has some variation of

767
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,650
Speaker 1: a wrestling tradition. And it makes sense that the Cornish

768
00:46:10,670 --> 00:46:11,410
Speaker 1: would have one as well.

769
00:46:12,330 --> 00:46:15,870
Speaker 2: But then, of course, the belief in the Tommyknockers. And

770
00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:18,710
Speaker 2: so after this, in the paper, James goes into this

771
00:46:18,770 --> 00:46:22,290
Speaker 2: extensive review of what other scholars have written about the

772
00:46:22,350 --> 00:46:28,790
Speaker 2: belief in mine-inhabiting spirits in the American West, including California, Utah, Colorado, Oregon,

773
00:46:28,890 --> 00:46:33,029
Speaker 2: and Montana. And the extent to which those spirits are

774
00:46:33,130 --> 00:46:38,310
Speaker 2: related to the imported Tommyknocker lore, also to the extent

775
00:46:38,469 --> 00:46:41,629
Speaker 2: that the legends are related, how the Tommyknocker lore relates

776
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 2: seems to have evolved in its new context. So I'm

777
00:46:45,060 --> 00:46:47,710
Speaker 2: not going to mention everything that James covers in this regard,

778
00:46:47,730 --> 00:46:50,109
Speaker 2: but I want to discuss some highlights that struck me.

779
00:46:50,890 --> 00:46:53,370
Speaker 2: First of all, in the American West, there was some

780
00:46:53,410 --> 00:46:58,820
Speaker 2: diversity of forms. Sometimes American Tommyknockers were thought to be benign,

781
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 2: even helpful, leading miners to valuable bodies of ore, like

782
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 2: you would follow the tapping sound, and that would lead

783
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,830
Speaker 2: you to claim great riches. Other times, the Tommyknockers represented

784
00:47:10,030 --> 00:47:13,770
Speaker 2: a sinister threat within the mine, and the tapping sound

785
00:47:13,790 --> 00:47:18,790
Speaker 2: that they made actually spelled doom, indicating that a cave-in

786
00:47:18,850 --> 00:47:22,509
Speaker 2: was imminent. So you've got exactly opposite things indicated by

787
00:47:22,550 --> 00:47:23,430
Speaker 2: hearing the tapping.

788
00:47:23,930 --> 00:47:25,339
Speaker 1: Yeah, is it a blessing or a curse?

789
00:47:25,620 --> 00:47:28,219
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe the sound makes you rich, maybe it's telling

790
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: you you are about to die. Sometimes it was even

791
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,060
Speaker 2: said that the Tommyknockers, this seems, from what I can tell,

792
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 2: to be less common, but sometimes it was said that

793
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 2: the Tommyknockers or a malicious subtype of knocker called devil Tommyknockers,

794
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 2: caused death, caused cave-ins, falling rocks and timbers, tunnel collapses,

795
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,989
Speaker 2: things like that. So not just foretelling your doom, but

796
00:47:51,210 --> 00:47:56,150
Speaker 2: making it happen. And this malicious quality survived in some miners'

797
00:47:56,190 --> 00:48:00,489
Speaker 2: lore even after the Tommyknocker legend itself died. The folklorist

798
00:48:00,530 --> 00:48:04,630
Speaker 2: Carolyn Bancroft recorded a saying in the mines of Colorado

799
00:48:04,730 --> 00:48:07,970
Speaker 2: that dangerous falling rocks were caused by an entity called

800
00:48:08,050 --> 00:48:11,130
Speaker 2: not a Tommyknocker, but the guy in the red shirt.

801
00:48:11,690 --> 00:48:11,930
Speaker 1: Ooh.

802
00:48:11,950 --> 00:48:13,570
Speaker 2: I thought that was a little spooky.

803
00:48:13,850 --> 00:48:17,169
Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of calls back, at least vaguely, to

804
00:48:17,210 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: the idea of a red cap, because how that shirt

805
00:48:19,180 --> 00:48:20,700
Speaker 1: gets so red, I have suspicions.

806
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 2: So confusingly, in some communities, miners use the term Tommyknocker

807
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:56,180
Speaker 2: to refer to not a being, but to tapping signals

808
00:48:56,260 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: that miners would use to intentionally communicate with each other. Like,

809
00:48:59,780 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 2: I'm Tommyknocking to, you know, send a signal. Other times,

810
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,830
Speaker 2: the mischief of Tommyknockers was used to explain any weird

811
00:49:07,870 --> 00:49:11,410
Speaker 2: occurrence within the mine. A missing tool, a malfunctioning piece

812
00:49:11,450 --> 00:49:14,950
Speaker 2: of equipment. They're kind of like gremlins in this regard.

813
00:49:16,610 --> 00:49:20,950
Speaker 2: They could be represented by little clay effigies that miners

814
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 2: made or had made for them and would leave near

815
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,540
Speaker 2: the entrance of a mine. And the tradition of giving

816
00:49:27,580 --> 00:49:31,020
Speaker 2: little food offerings to the knockers sometimes did continue in

817
00:49:31,060 --> 00:49:34,620
Speaker 2: the American context, though not everywhere. So you might leave

818
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 2: a pastry or a bit of tallow in front of

819
00:49:37,380 --> 00:49:40,220
Speaker 2: one of these clay effigies near the entrance to a mine.

820
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,580
Speaker 2: That's giving it to the knockers as a, you know, hey,

821
00:49:43,620 --> 00:49:45,610
Speaker 2: I'm doing my part. I'm giving you a tip. Please

822
00:49:45,950 --> 00:49:49,770
Speaker 2: treat me well. And what seems like a big difference

823
00:49:49,850 --> 00:49:52,509
Speaker 2: between the American version and the Cornish version is the

824
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:57,930
Speaker 2: origin story. This idea about ancient Jewish miners sent in

825
00:49:57,969 --> 00:50:00,689
Speaker 2: the Middle Ages or sent by the Romans was That's

826
00:50:00,770 --> 00:50:03,620
Speaker 2: gone in the American context. In the American West, the

827
00:50:03,660 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 2: knockers were usually just said to be the ghosts of

828
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,820
Speaker 2: dead miners. References to Tommy knockers appear in newspapers throughout

829
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,180
Speaker 2: the 19th and early 20th centuries. And I want to

830
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:19,430
Speaker 2: read one funny example from 1884 in the Evening Chronicle

831
00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:24,330
Speaker 2: of Virginia City, Nevada that James includes. So here's the article, quote,

832
00:50:24,930 --> 00:50:27,509
Speaker 2: Last night, two men who were prowling around in the

833
00:50:27,570 --> 00:50:31,390
Speaker 2: Baltimore mine at American Flat got scared nearly out of

834
00:50:31,450 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 2: the township by the queer sights in an old drift.

835
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: They went into the mine for the purpose of seeing

836
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,340
Speaker 2: whether there was ore enough in sight to profitably extract

837
00:50:40,420 --> 00:50:43,779
Speaker 2: on tribute. Climbing into a stope, they heard the click

838
00:50:43,820 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: of hammers and were much surprised, as they supposed no

839
00:50:46,940 --> 00:50:49,980
Speaker 2: one had been there in years. Following up the sound,

840
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,819
Speaker 2: they were astonished to see two striking hammers work on

841
00:50:53,860 --> 00:50:57,020
Speaker 2: the head of a rusty drill, which was deftly turned

842
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,489
Speaker 2: by unseen hands. And though not a soul was in

843
00:51:00,570 --> 00:51:04,450
Speaker 2: sight except themselves, they heard a lively conversation, but could

844
00:51:04,510 --> 00:51:08,230
Speaker 2: make out no words. They looked and listened for some minutes,

845
00:51:08,570 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 2: when fear took hold of them, and they ran out

846
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,100
Speaker 2: of the mine quickly. At the tool house they related

847
00:51:14,140 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: their experience and were laughed at, but to prove that

848
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,780
Speaker 2: their heads were clear, they conducted a couple of skeptics

849
00:51:19,940 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 2: to the spot and found the hammer still at work.

850
00:51:23,140 --> 00:51:26,020
Speaker 2: The men insisted that they did not deceive themselves, and

851
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,770
Speaker 2: those who went with them say that the above statements

852
00:51:29,010 --> 00:51:34,350
Speaker 2: are facts. I love how no names are given. There's

853
00:51:34,410 --> 00:51:38,790
Speaker 2: also a newspaper story from Virginia City, Nevada of miners

854
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:41,489
Speaker 2: who see a floating lantern going up and down a

855
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:44,150
Speaker 2: mine shaft and they think, oh, it's being carried by

856
00:51:44,190 --> 00:51:46,770
Speaker 2: an invisible spirit. It must be a Tommyknocker. But they

857
00:51:46,830 --> 00:51:51,259
Speaker 2: later discover there's a practical explanation here. The superintendent of

858
00:51:51,300 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 2: the mine was plumbing the shaft with a lantern dangling

859
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,859
Speaker 2: from a wire and So it's going up and down

860
00:51:56,900 --> 00:51:59,980
Speaker 2: and they're like, that's a ghost. James also talks about

861
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,460
Speaker 2: fiction of the time, which you can find a bunch

862
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,660
Speaker 2: of examples of fiction incorporating these types of folk beliefs.

863
00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 2: So there are 19th century stories and novels that mention

864
00:52:09,940 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 2: the Tommyknockers in the mines. But a main change to

865
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: Hammer Home, apart from the origin story change, is also

866
00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:21,260
Speaker 2: the distinction of the subtle shift, and it is somewhat subtle,

867
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:26,930
Speaker 2: from elf-like beings to ghosts. This, again, is confusing because

868
00:52:26,969 --> 00:52:30,410
Speaker 2: in the Cornish context, these elf-like beings are said to

869
00:52:30,450 --> 00:52:33,589
Speaker 2: be the spirits of humans from long ago, but are

870
00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:36,919
Speaker 2: treated less like human souls and more like an elf

871
00:52:37,020 --> 00:52:40,899
Speaker 2: or kind of otherworldly being a different species. I think, again,

872
00:52:40,940 --> 00:52:43,340
Speaker 2: there's just some fuzziness here that goes back a long,

873
00:52:43,380 --> 00:52:48,770
Speaker 2: long time in what exactly elves are. And some elf-like

874
00:52:48,810 --> 00:52:52,450
Speaker 2: qualities remained in these later American tellings. For example, the

875
00:52:52,469 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 2: clay effigies, that seems to be more like the elves

876
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:58,700
Speaker 2: or the gnomes than human ghosts. And of course, the

877
00:52:58,739 --> 00:53:01,780
Speaker 2: tradition of food offerings is more like the Cornish form.

878
00:53:02,860 --> 00:53:06,300
Speaker 2: Another major change in the tradition is what the spirits

879
00:53:06,460 --> 00:53:10,710
Speaker 2: did for the miners. The Cornish knocker legends are much

880
00:53:10,790 --> 00:53:15,940
Speaker 2: more moralistic. The Tommy knockers reward good moral qualities in minors,

881
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:20,180
Speaker 2: and they punish wickedness. Meanwhile, in the American context, there

882
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,780
Speaker 2: is essentially no moralism. There's no rewarding good and punishing evil.

883
00:53:25,140 --> 00:53:28,469
Speaker 2: There's a little bit of appeasement rewarding if you give

884
00:53:28,510 --> 00:53:32,009
Speaker 2: them the food offerings with the effigies, but there's no

885
00:53:32,250 --> 00:53:37,010
Speaker 2: real moral quality consideration in how they behave towards you. Instead,

886
00:53:37,030 --> 00:53:41,819
Speaker 2: the relationship is just transactional and practical. What the Tommyknocker

887
00:53:41,860 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 2: primarily does in America is, in either a helpful or

888
00:53:45,420 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: sinister way, it warns miners of imminent danger. And James

889
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:54,420
Speaker 2: explains this in part by appealing to the idea of

890
00:53:54,600 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 2: different moral cultural environments where these legends propagate. He says,

891
00:54:00,260 --> 00:54:06,140
Speaker 2: in traditional Cornish culture, excessive greed and ambition and curiosity

892
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 2: are policed and punished. The moral of these stories is

893
00:54:10,060 --> 00:54:13,299
Speaker 2: do not be too greedy. Take your fair share. Don't

894
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: be too curious or inquisitive. Mind your own business. And

895
00:54:18,540 --> 00:54:21,399
Speaker 2: in talking about this, James draws on a framework from

896
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: an author named George Foster to describe this as a

897
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: morality based on the concept of limited good. And this

898
00:54:28,739 --> 00:54:31,229
Speaker 2: is a common way of thinking in many cultures where

899
00:54:31,390 --> 00:54:34,989
Speaker 2: it essentially views the world as a kind of closed

900
00:54:35,210 --> 00:54:39,930
Speaker 2: zero-sum system where being a good person is equated with

901
00:54:39,969 --> 00:54:43,900
Speaker 2: a kind of egalitarian humility where, you know, one of

902
00:54:43,940 --> 00:54:47,620
Speaker 2: the main things that's discouraged is when people attempt, quote,

903
00:54:48,060 --> 00:54:51,940
Speaker 2: major change in their economic or other statuses. And the

904
00:54:51,980 --> 00:54:56,299
Speaker 2: underlying assumption behind that discouragement is my gain would be

905
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 2: everyone else's loss. So, you know, there's a limited good.

906
00:55:00,300 --> 00:55:04,720
Speaker 2: American culture was very different, almost the opposite. There was

907
00:55:04,810 --> 00:55:09,469
Speaker 2: a culture of admiring acquisitiveness and ambition and curiosity, a

908
00:55:10,450 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 2: worldview that is not zero-sum limited good, but a positive-sum

909
00:55:14,980 --> 00:55:17,980
Speaker 2: world where it's good for people to achieve, to go

910
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 2: out and achieve all the success they can, and it

911
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,430
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily hurt anyone else for them to do so.

912
00:55:25,420 --> 00:55:27,580
Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking about this. I think obviously

913
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,330
Speaker 2: there can in reality be some insight in both worldviews.

914
00:55:32,070 --> 00:55:34,550
Speaker 2: Of course, it is true that there can be positive

915
00:55:34,590 --> 00:55:38,109
Speaker 2: some interactions and one person's success doesn't have to come

916
00:55:38,150 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 2: at somebody else's suffering. You can like create wealth. You

917
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,420
Speaker 2: can add new value to the world. Then again, sometimes

918
00:55:44,500 --> 00:55:47,540
Speaker 2: success does come at somebody else's suffering. And when we

919
00:55:47,580 --> 00:55:51,189
Speaker 2: are racing towards success, mad with ambition and it's easy

920
00:55:51,230 --> 00:55:53,870
Speaker 2: to be blind to the ways that our gain actually

921
00:55:54,050 --> 00:55:57,739
Speaker 2: is somebody else's loss. And so, like, having stories in

922
00:55:57,780 --> 00:56:00,780
Speaker 2: place to make you think about that is actually valuable.

923
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:02,819
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can't help but think about all this

924
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: within the context of, like, a strict mining culture, too. Like,

925
00:56:06,820 --> 00:56:11,310
Speaker 1: I wonder if it makes sense that the Cornish traditionally,

926
00:56:11,330 --> 00:56:15,250
Speaker 1: you know, had this emphasis because you're a tight-knit crew.

927
00:56:15,630 --> 00:56:18,029
Speaker 1: You depend on each other in a dangerous environment, and

928
00:56:18,070 --> 00:56:20,650
Speaker 1: maybe there is more of a sense of, like, You know,

929
00:56:20,850 --> 00:56:23,730
Speaker 1: nobody stand out. Nobody go for personal glory because we

930
00:56:23,790 --> 00:56:25,450
Speaker 1: all have to depend on each other here.

931
00:56:26,390 --> 00:56:30,170
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. Absolutely. So

932
00:56:30,590 --> 00:56:34,730
Speaker 2: the American forms of the Tommyknocker legend lose the moralistic message,

933
00:56:35,190 --> 00:56:39,910
Speaker 2: the moralistic message discouraging greed and curiosity. In the American context,

934
00:56:40,070 --> 00:56:43,390
Speaker 2: greed and curiosity are just fine, but you need to

935
00:56:43,450 --> 00:56:47,540
Speaker 2: take practical steps to protect yourself from economic loss and

936
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:52,270
Speaker 2: mortal danger. So the knocker becomes a source of practical

937
00:56:52,350 --> 00:56:56,109
Speaker 2: problems in the form of like sabotage and pranks or

938
00:56:56,210 --> 00:57:00,790
Speaker 2: of information of omens about practical problems such as deadly accidents.

939
00:57:01,550 --> 00:57:04,710
Speaker 2: To quote James here, quote, the Tommy knockers were omens

940
00:57:04,750 --> 00:57:07,590
Speaker 2: of danger, giving the miners something on which to focus

941
00:57:07,630 --> 00:57:12,810
Speaker 2: their interpretations of subtle signs of cave-ins. The miners could

942
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 2: not necessarily distinguish between the diverse, subtle sounds in the

943
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,260
Speaker 2: mine and and failed to realize consciously that when the

944
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,460
Speaker 2: timbers of the mine moaned one way, it was safe.

945
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 2: But when the mines echoed with another sound, it meant danger.

946
00:57:27,700 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 2: Much of 19th century mining expertise was based on experience,

947
00:57:31,780 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 2: not science. As late as the 1930s, George Orwell was

948
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: able to observe English miners relying on the, quote, feel

949
00:57:39,740 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 2: of the mine. And then here it quotes Orwell. I

950
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 2: love this passage. An experienced miner said, claims to know

951
00:57:46,260 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 2: by a sort of instinct when the roof is unsafe.

952
00:57:49,660 --> 00:57:52,090
Speaker 2: The way he puts it is that he can feel

953
00:57:52,140 --> 00:57:55,530
Speaker 2: the weight upon him. He can, for instance, hear the

954
00:57:55,590 --> 00:57:58,850
Speaker 2: faint creaking of the props. The reason why wooden props

955
00:57:58,910 --> 00:58:02,150
Speaker 2: are still generally preferred to iron girders is that a

956
00:58:02,230 --> 00:58:05,050
Speaker 2: wooden prop, which is about to collapse, gives a warning

957
00:58:05,110 --> 00:58:09,770
Speaker 2: by creaking, whereas a girder flies out unexpectedly. The devastating

958
00:58:09,850 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: noise of the machines makes it impossible to hear anything else,

959
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,750
Speaker 2: thus the danger is increasing. So I love this. This

960
00:58:17,790 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 2: is something we've talked about before. Supernatural beings imagined as

961
00:58:22,220 --> 00:58:27,340
Speaker 2: the physical embodiment of sensory intuitions. So I have some

962
00:58:27,380 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 2: experience in an environment and thus I can associate subtle

963
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:37,020
Speaker 2: sensory cues with coming effects. But this association is a

964
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,610
Speaker 2: little bit below my ability to consciously put it into words.

965
00:58:41,210 --> 00:58:44,070
Speaker 2: So instead, there's some kind of being that is here

966
00:58:44,210 --> 00:58:45,150
Speaker 2: giving me a warning.

967
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,940
Speaker 1: Right, right. So the reframe this insight is information coming

968
00:58:50,060 --> 00:58:51,580
Speaker 1: from some external source.

969
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,530
Speaker 2: Yeah. So in the American context, the Tommyknocker legend is

970
00:58:55,590 --> 00:58:59,430
Speaker 2: about practical warnings, which is something that it has in

971
00:58:59,670 --> 00:59:02,890
Speaker 2: part in common with the Cornish version. But this is

972
00:59:02,970 --> 00:59:07,110
Speaker 2: the only emphasis now, no longer the moralistic enforcement. It's

973
00:59:07,150 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 2: the practical warnings. And I think this type of subconscious

974
00:59:11,420 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 2: awareness of sensory cues in the mind, that makes a

975
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,620
Speaker 2: lot of sense as to where those practical signals are

976
00:59:18,660 --> 00:59:20,460
Speaker 2: actually coming from. I mean, other times it might just

977
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,300
Speaker 2: be your imagination. But in some cases, it could seem

978
00:59:23,340 --> 00:59:26,939
Speaker 2: to be actually quite prescient because you're relying on little

979
00:59:26,980 --> 00:59:30,670
Speaker 2: sounds you're hearing, feeling the weight upon you. Also interesting

980
00:59:30,930 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 2: how technological changes over the history of mining could have

981
00:59:35,340 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 2: contributed to changes in the Tommyknocker lore or the decline

982
00:59:38,900 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 2: of lore altogether. There are a number of things to

983
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 2: mention here. I'm thinking about how Orwell calls out the

984
00:59:46,090 --> 00:59:49,910
Speaker 2: sound of the heavy machinery, making you no longer sensitive

985
00:59:49,970 --> 00:59:52,590
Speaker 2: to those little creaks that give you the four warnings.

986
00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:56,230
Speaker 2: So the sound of the machines may have changed the

987
00:59:56,270 --> 00:59:58,810
Speaker 2: environment of the mines in other ways. to become less

988
00:59:58,910 --> 01:00:03,790
Speaker 2: conducive to Tommyknocker lore. I bet a quieter mine is eerier.

989
01:00:03,810 --> 01:00:07,290
Speaker 2: If you don't have stuff like, you know, loudly thrumming

990
01:00:07,350 --> 01:00:09,780
Speaker 2: in your ear, if you've got a somewhat quieter mine

991
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,580
Speaker 2: where small sounds can echo and propagate more easily and

992
01:00:13,620 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 2: don't get drowned out, I would just suspect that makes

993
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,390
Speaker 2: you think that there are creatures about. Yeah, yeah.

994
01:00:20,430 --> 01:00:22,610
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things we've talked about on

995
01:00:22,650 --> 01:00:25,730
Speaker 1: the show before is the sensory deprivation in these environments,

996
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: and that includes sound. And you're hearing less, you're hearing

997
01:00:29,180 --> 01:00:32,460
Speaker 1: strange echoes, and it can take on all sorts of

998
01:00:32,660 --> 01:00:35,500
Speaker 1: strange life in your head. But as we're discussing here,

999
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:37,780
Speaker 1: it could also give you the ability to pick up

1000
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 1: on these little changes that can be detected via human hearing.

1001
01:00:42,660 --> 01:00:45,500
Speaker 2: Another thing that James calls out is, this might seem

1002
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:47,230
Speaker 2: very simple, but I think there's a lot to it,

1003
01:00:47,580 --> 01:00:52,380
Speaker 2: the replacement of lanterns with electric lighting, making minds less gloomy.

1004
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:54,530
Speaker 2: You know, the electric lights in the mind, that's a

1005
01:00:54,590 --> 01:00:55,410
Speaker 2: different environment.

1006
01:00:56,010 --> 01:00:58,850
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean, you can just think of movies for this. Like,

1007
01:00:58,950 --> 01:01:01,910
Speaker 1: what cave set looks better? The gloomy cave set, the

1008
01:01:01,950 --> 01:01:05,890
Speaker 1: gloomy tunnel set, not the fully illuminated one. If you

1009
01:01:05,930 --> 01:01:08,510
Speaker 1: can just completely flood the chamber with light, that takes

1010
01:01:08,570 --> 01:01:10,700
Speaker 1: away a little bit of its mystery, right?

1011
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 2: One more thing I thought was interesting is that James

1012
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 2: introduces a framework for thinking about how these stories change

1013
01:01:19,180 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 2: when they come across the Atlantic by citing a scholar

1014
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: named Stephen Stern. who talks about common patterns in how

1015
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 2: legends and oral traditions change when the tellers immigrate to

1016
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 2: new lands. According to Stern, there are very common patterns.

1017
01:01:34,220 --> 01:01:36,940
Speaker 2: So when somebody moves from one place to another and

1018
01:01:36,980 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 2: takes oral traditions with them, this is how the traditions

1019
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:45,650
Speaker 2: tend to change. Quote, From longer to shorter, from complex

1020
01:01:45,890 --> 01:01:51,190
Speaker 2: to simple, from sacred to secular, from supernatural to realistic,

1021
01:01:51,580 --> 01:01:55,820
Speaker 2: from communal to individualistic. I think you can see a

1022
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:57,660
Speaker 2: lot of those, maybe not all of them, but a

1023
01:01:57,700 --> 01:02:00,010
Speaker 2: lot of those elements in the changes that occur with

1024
01:02:00,030 --> 01:02:01,260
Speaker 2: the Tommyknocker legend.

1025
01:02:01,860 --> 01:02:04,230
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there does seem to be this shift from,

1026
01:02:04,390 --> 01:02:07,490
Speaker 1: for instance, the communal to the individualistic. Yeah. Going from

1027
01:02:07,590 --> 01:02:09,410
Speaker 1: this is this thing that we all know about and

1028
01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:11,930
Speaker 1: we all believe to this is that thing that, you know,

1029
01:02:12,010 --> 01:02:14,570
Speaker 1: old Tom told me about. He keeps talking about this.

1030
01:02:15,090 --> 01:02:18,630
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also on that count, the individualistic versus communal

1031
01:02:18,650 --> 01:02:22,370
Speaker 2: shift the shift away from the limited good morality that says, like,

1032
01:02:22,390 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just going to stay as a peer

1033
01:02:25,430 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 2: with my coworkers here. I'm not going to try to

1034
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:31,020
Speaker 2: strike out and do a lot better than them to

1035
01:02:31,100 --> 01:02:33,820
Speaker 2: this American context where it's like, you know, if you

1036
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:37,060
Speaker 2: can find a vein and get the richest, that's great,

1037
01:02:37,340 --> 01:02:40,810
Speaker 2: but you better watch out for the cave-in. So that's

1038
01:02:40,830 --> 01:02:43,750
Speaker 2: all I've got on the Tommyknocker legend, but I think

1039
01:02:43,850 --> 01:02:45,470
Speaker 2: we will have a lot more to talk about with

1040
01:02:45,610 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 2: mining spirits and entities in the tunnels for the next episode.

1041
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: That's right. We'll come back with some more European examples,

1042
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: but also some non-European examples of entities associated with the mines.

1043
01:02:59,950 --> 01:03:02,170
Speaker 1: All right. As always, we'll remind you that Stuff to

1044
01:03:02,190 --> 01:03:04,570
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast

1045
01:03:04,590 --> 01:03:08,590
Speaker 1: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short-form episodes on Wednesdays,

1046
01:03:08,650 --> 01:03:11,050
Speaker 1: and on Fridays, we set aside most serious concerns to

1047
01:03:11,130 --> 01:03:13,770
Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

1048
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 2: Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, J.J.

1049
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:18,180
Speaker 1: Posway.

1050
01:03:18,580 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us

1051
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1052
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,310
Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1053
01:03:24,670 --> 01:03:35,350
Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at StuffedBlowYourMind.com.

1054
01:03:35,370 --> 01:03:37,790
Speaker 1: Stuffed Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio.

1055
01:03:38,170 --> 01:03:41,490
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1056
01:03:41,510 --> 01:03:53,260
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