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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio, Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super

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Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Earth Fire, Wind, Water, Heart,

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Speaker 1: Go Planet, although you're gonna make an Earth Wind and

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Speaker 1: Fire reference, but then you changed course midway and I

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Speaker 1: was on board again. I'm not on board with earth Fire,

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Speaker 1: but I love me some Captain Planet right right. This

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Speaker 1: will be familiar to many many of our fellow listeners

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Speaker 1: who were based in the US. Captain Planet was an

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Speaker 1: animated series about these kids, these plucky young upstarts who

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Speaker 1: wanted to save the world with the help of their

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Speaker 1: superpowered friend, Captain Planet, the eponymous star of the show,

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Speaker 1: Uh Captain Plants gonna come up a couple of times

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Speaker 1: in today's episode. The topic of our show today has

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Speaker 1: been on our minds for a while because the facts

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Speaker 1: are written regardless of where you live, your country has

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Speaker 1: probably at some point been ground zero for a serious

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Speaker 1: environmental disaster. Oils bills, hurricanes, mass extinctions, forest fires, flooding, droughts,

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Speaker 1: you name it, something has happened. And right now, at

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Speaker 1: the time of this recording, people across the planet have

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Speaker 1: tried to propose any number of solutions to these problems,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately, very few of these initiatives have met with

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Speaker 1: great success, and the world continues to degrade at an

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Speaker 1: unprecedented Paceum yeah, bummer. Indeed. I mean, you know, for

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Speaker 1: some people, maybe in the crowd today, this means that

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Speaker 1: drastic new tactics are needed. If you can't change the

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Speaker 1: system from within the system, then the system itself becomes

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Speaker 1: your enemy. So certain groups have decided to conspire to

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Speaker 1: act outside of the law in service of what they

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Speaker 1: see as a greater environmental good. And some folks will

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Speaker 1: call these people heroes. Other folks, as we'll find, will

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Speaker 1: call them terrorists. Here are the facts when before we

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Speaker 1: talk about the concept of so called eco terrorism, we

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Speaker 1: have to lay out some some depressing information. Uh, the

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Speaker 1: kind of thing that has made me actively subscribe to

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Speaker 1: the philosophy of optimistic nihilism. Uh, it doesn't matter who

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Speaker 1: you vote for, doesn't matter what kind of music you like,

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Speaker 1: what kind of food you eat, what kind of clothes

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Speaker 1: you wear. The environment is screwed, I mean for all

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Speaker 1: in dens and purposes. And you don't have to be

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Speaker 1: like a super activists in this space, you know, some

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Speaker 1: kind of hippie living in its treehouse to agree with

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Speaker 1: that point. I mean, it's pretty clear, um that there

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Speaker 1: are some very very very serious and in many cases

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Speaker 1: irreversible problems with the environment. Well, yeah, we we learned.

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Speaker 1: We did an episode not long ago, maybe actually it

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Speaker 1: was years ago now, but he was about specifically that

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Speaker 1: what the oil companies new when it came to climate

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Speaker 1: change and the effects that their companies were having on

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Speaker 1: that whole process. I mean, it's it's pretty much an

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Speaker 1: accepted fact that humans have at least pushed forward the

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Speaker 1: changing climate on Earth. Yeah. Absolutely, And a lot of

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Speaker 1: the arguments attempting to debunk studies about that were paid

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Speaker 1: by the corporations who were at least partially responsible. They knew,

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Speaker 1: they very much knew, and they just decided they're Q

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Speaker 1: four profits were you know, more important than their grandchildren

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Speaker 1: or the people who come after the current generation. Mammy,

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Speaker 1: climate change is accepted as a fact. Uh, the conspiracy

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Speaker 1: is that people tried to cover it up. So today

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Speaker 1: the real debates are the real like active debates in

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Speaker 1: this sphere, are the extent of the damage, like you're

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Speaker 1: alluding to, Matt, Like humans did something, how much did

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Speaker 1: they do? And then secondly, what is to be done

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Speaker 1: about this? And when do humans need to get off

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Speaker 1: their collective keysters and do something. I mean, you have

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Speaker 1: you know, international agreements and climate accords and you know,

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Speaker 1: um emission standards and things like that. But you're right,

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Speaker 1: even stuff like that is super politicized and often you know,

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Speaker 1: a little bit toothless in terms of like how much

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Speaker 1: accountability the nations that are part of those agreements actually have.

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Speaker 1: M And we're not you know, this is not necessarily

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Speaker 1: a hit piece on the authors of those declarations or

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Speaker 1: the proponents or signatories of those agreements. You're right. Well,

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Speaker 1: for many, many years, the problem of environmental degradation was

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Speaker 1: a politically seen as a political opportunity. It was politicized.

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Speaker 1: People who are out to make money. Consequences be damned

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Speaker 1: were quite successful leveraging the problems of human psychology. Right,

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Speaker 1: and now, now the idea of your opinion about environmentalism

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Speaker 1: is inherently wrapped up in your concept of a tribe

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Speaker 1: and your membership in a tribe. But the thing is, like, okay,

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Speaker 1: So people who are fighting for conservation, at least in

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Speaker 1: the US were often accused of being quote far left

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Speaker 1: radicals or the you know, the accusation was they were

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Speaker 1: unfairly attacking people who are just trying to earn a living,

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Speaker 1: put food on the dinner table, etcetera, etcetera, whatever kind

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Speaker 1: of political rhetoric was in vogue at the time. Dare

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Speaker 1: dare you say attacking a whole part of the country, right,

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Speaker 1: like Middle America, you know, it is under attack by

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Speaker 1: far left radicals because they're trying to get rid of

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Speaker 1: you know, um coal mining or you know, impose all

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Speaker 1: of these draconian standards on all of these stuff that

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Speaker 1: people just want to earn a living. I mean, And

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Speaker 1: of course at some level there's truth to that, like

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Speaker 1: in terms of people needing to earn a living, but

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Speaker 1: at what cost? Right? Also, economy is a religion. So

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep saying that until somebody proves me wrong.

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Speaker 1: But you guys are absolutely right. This this shift, this

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Speaker 1: politicization is very interesting if you are a student of history,

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Speaker 1: because a great many conservation movements in the US and

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Speaker 1: abroad had fairly patrician, politically conservative roots, you know, like

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Speaker 1: the aristocracy would preserve land for their own purposes usually,

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Speaker 1: or think of Teddy Roosevelt was a huge proponent of

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Speaker 1: conservation and vironmentalism, but he also liked to murder you

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Speaker 1: know things a lot. True, true, he did, he did, uh,

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Speaker 1: And right now a lot of large institutions are making

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Speaker 1: tons of profit because people are not aware of this

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Speaker 1: historical context. Right the conversation has evolved. Things weren't always

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Speaker 1: this way, sort of similar to how the Democrats and

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Speaker 1: Republicans so called of the like eighteen hundreds were way

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Speaker 1: different than the people you see calling themselves that today.

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Speaker 1: You have to look deeper into things to understand them.

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Speaker 1: And regardless of where you find yourself on the political spectrum,

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Speaker 1: arguments that politicized climate change are usually either I'll say it,

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Speaker 1: take a shot, cartoonishly ignorant, or they are made in

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Speaker 1: bad faith to mislead credulous people. You if you were

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Speaker 1: listening and you're human being, you need the same things

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Speaker 1: as all the people that you love or hate or

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Speaker 1: don't know across the planet. You know, you gotta breathe, right,

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Speaker 1: that's one of the things. You want to eat food,

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Speaker 1: which means you need arable land or access to someone

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Speaker 1: who has that. You also need clean water. It's cool

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Speaker 1: to have shelter from the elements. These are like the base,

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Speaker 1: this is day one stuff. As they said at work,

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Speaker 1: allics and the and the problem is just too big

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Speaker 1: for any one single institution to solve it on its own.

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Speaker 1: There are too many players involved. You could call them

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Speaker 1: stakeholders or whatever. But we're we're not just talking about

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Speaker 1: the almost eight billion people who rely on the ecosystem

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Speaker 1: to survive, which is you know, that's everyone. We're also

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Speaker 1: talking about the institutions that these people have formed throughout

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Speaker 1: history or will form in the future. Like um okay,

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Speaker 1: I I hate that we have to say this, but

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Speaker 1: we have to be fair, right, We talked about this

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Speaker 1: in the world without plastic, they're huge private industries that

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Speaker 1: you know, move billions and trillions of dollars depending on

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Speaker 1: how you slice it. And if you flip a switch

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Speaker 1: and you say, you know, like no more plastic more

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Speaker 1: CEO two emissions or something like that. They are going

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Speaker 1: to tank and they will drive millions of innocent people

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Speaker 1: with them into the ground. Too much change too soon

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Speaker 1: could be as dangerous has no change in the immediate future.

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Speaker 1: If does that make sense? Oh? Absolutely, And we already

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Speaker 1: we alluded to that earlier in the episode, just when

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Speaker 1: talking about the whole problem in general of making one

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Speaker 1: massive change. And the other thing to take into account

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Speaker 1: here is that every country that exists has its own

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Speaker 1: kind of economy that functions based on the resources and

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Speaker 1: what's available within the land and sea that they own. Right,

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Speaker 1: And if you try and make a sweeping change on

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Speaker 1: every one of those countries and every one of those economies,

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Speaker 1: let alone the global economy, uh, you're gonna have major problems.

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Speaker 1: They're the same ones you just described, Ben, where one

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Speaker 1: one company goes down or an industry goes down in

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Speaker 1: a certain fishing you know area, let's say on the

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Speaker 1: northeast coast of the United States or you know of

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Speaker 1: North America. Um, you're gonna have major issues not only

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Speaker 1: in that area, but then that's gonna affect the rest

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Speaker 1: of the economy and the fishing economy anyway. It's a

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Speaker 1: bad example, but it's it's a major problem. Well, and

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Speaker 1: not only that, you have developing countries that are maybe

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Speaker 1: just now starting to become you know, um economic superpowers

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Speaker 1: are working their way up to it. And they're like,

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Speaker 1: what about all that time that you spent polluting, you know,

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Speaker 1: and getting to get up and running, and now you're

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Speaker 1: saying that we have to cut back because of all

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Speaker 1: the you know, greenhouse gases you put out, like over

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Speaker 1: the years, when we weren't like, that's not fair, that's

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Speaker 1: a that's a point I want to spend some time

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Speaker 1: on in a second, in every like we're on the

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Speaker 1: same page here, we might accidentally radicalize each other in

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Speaker 1: this episode, folks, which is fine. So you so we've

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Speaker 1: got the companies no matter if you love them, you

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Speaker 1: hate them, you think they're necessary evil. Uh, it would

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Speaker 1: be bad news if they all of a sudden had

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Speaker 1: to flip a switch and stop. The economic consequences would

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Speaker 1: be unprecedented. Those two almost two hundred un recognized countries,

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Speaker 1: they've each got their own vibes, often contradictory goals. They're

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Speaker 1: not going to be super great at cooperating. And then

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Speaker 1: especially now to steal a line from Fox News. Now

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Speaker 1: more than ever, you have incredibly wealthy individuals, each of

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Speaker 1: whom also has their own agenda, and they are capable

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Speaker 1: of affecting these conversations at every single step along the way.

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Speaker 1: If you are listening to today's show, odds are you

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Speaker 1: can't do a thing to stop any of those three

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Speaker 1: um categories of ventity. You can try to make your

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Speaker 1: voice heard, but the traditional channels, it's gonna be tough.

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Speaker 1: Not everybody gets to be Greta Thunberg. You know, Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's a prisoner's dilemma here at play as well. No

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Speaker 1: one wants to get left behind. Logically, no one wants

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Speaker 1: to commit to a decision or a policy that will

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Speaker 1: leave them at a disadvantage. Very basically, why would you?

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Speaker 1: You know, Like I was trying to think of some

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Speaker 1: examples and I just came up with some hypothetical ones.

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Speaker 1: So I was trying to think of like a really

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Speaker 1: big corporation, and I just pulled Uni Lever out of

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Speaker 1: Scullies cranium over there. And let's say you're let's say

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Speaker 1: you're Noelan Matt and you are the heads of Uni Lever,

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Speaker 1: and you know that a lot of let's Let's say

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Speaker 1: you make a lot of stuff that uses palm oil,

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Speaker 1: and you know that the palm oil industry is very

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Speaker 1: damaging to the ecosystems in which it's harvested. But you

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Speaker 1: also know that if you decide to get some good

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Speaker 1: pr and say, okay, we're cutting out all palm oil

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Speaker 1: products and we're an international corporation, so we're gonna make

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Speaker 1: a splash with this, you know what's going to happen.

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Speaker 1: If you do that, You're gonna lose billions of dollars

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly, and worse, your competitors are going to move

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Speaker 1: into that space lickety split. So the problem is going

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Speaker 1: to continue and you just won't be making money off

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Speaker 1: of it. That is what will happen. Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 1: like Lego, for example, they're not going to stop using plastic,

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Speaker 1: but they did make a gesture and saying they're gonna

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Speaker 1: phase out plastic bags in their packaging. So it's like

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Speaker 1: that's sort of the middle ground of pr opportunity there.

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Speaker 1: Because your Lego, it's such a hit to your supply,

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Speaker 1: you can't what are you gonna make it out of?

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Speaker 1: Like seashells, Like, you know, you've got to figure something out,

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Speaker 1: and that's a much more long term problem to figure

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Speaker 1: out a material that they can actually integrate into their

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Speaker 1: supply chain to replace plastics and oil based products. So

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Speaker 1: instead they're like, well, we know that this problem, but

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Speaker 1: we're lego. We gotta have your legos. So let's just

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Speaker 1: you know, make the bags out of paper, you know.

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Speaker 1: Or I think McDonald's even is like they're happy meal

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Speaker 1: toys are not made of plastic anymore. They're made of paper,

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Speaker 1: but they're also gonna still have plastic straws. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's I mean, it's it's true. It really is a

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Speaker 1: pickle because these the folks are in charge of these

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Speaker 1: decisions are trying to mitigate damage, but they're trying to

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Speaker 1: mitigate it in a way that is sustainable for their enterprise,

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Speaker 1: if not sustainable for the planet and the scale of

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Speaker 1: time that that is one of the biggest complicating factors here.

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Speaker 1: Let's say, okay, let's say your Paul Mission controlled decond

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Speaker 1: you are the ruler of Let's give Paul Transylvania. It's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: also love that he's the ruler. He's just the ruler

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Speaker 1: of it, you know, with a with a very tasteful

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Speaker 1: iron fist mission control rules Transylvania. And as the leader

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Speaker 1: of this country, he knows that his nation depends upon

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Speaker 1: certain industries that are damaging to the environment. Maybe it's mining,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's oil and rare earth minerals, whatever. Maybe it's

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Speaker 1: a mono agriculture in just exports one thing and that's

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Speaker 1: what most of the arable land is used for. So uh,

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Speaker 1: dear leader Paul Decans says, Okay, I could end these industries,

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Speaker 1: and if I do, then Transylvania will play a role

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Speaker 1: in making the world arguably a better place decades from now.

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Speaker 1: I won't be around to see it. Instead, I will

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Speaker 1: be the scapegoat. I will be public enemy number one.

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Speaker 1: I'll be the guy who tanked to the economy and

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Speaker 1: put the population in the poorhouse and out of work.

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Speaker 1: That also is the calculus that a lot of world

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Speaker 1: leaders use, and they're not wrong. Is the problem. So

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Speaker 1: they're still mine asbestos and parts of Russia, you know,

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Speaker 1: because there's that What does that whole town asked us,

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Speaker 1: I believe something like that. That that is that's literally

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Speaker 1: they're they're one industry um and everyone that's they're doing

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Speaker 1: that job is okay with doing that job, so they

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Speaker 1: keep putting it out. What else are you gonna do?

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Speaker 1: You know? Uh, these are broad kind of aside from Russia,

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Speaker 1: which is a real world example, these are broad hypothetical examples,

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Speaker 1: but we guarantee you they are based in fact. And

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Speaker 1: so now the question becomes the same old question. Everybody

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Speaker 1: knows there's a problem, everybody knows something needs to be done.

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Speaker 1: Can't we all just get along and agree on a solution?

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Speaker 1: Record scratch, no, actually no, we cannot. We will not.

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Speaker 1: As discussed earlier, many of the countries and entities that

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Speaker 1: are driving these conversations about environmentalism and preservation, they're coming

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Speaker 1: from a place of immense historical privilege. Like of course,

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Speaker 1: and this is not a thing on our British or

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Speaker 1: European friends in the audience today, but think about it.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the U K. And Western Europe can get

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Speaker 1: kind of high in my about the conversation around alternative

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Speaker 1: energy because they're still sitting pretty off untold trillions of

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Speaker 1: dollars of historical profits from the coal power of the

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Speaker 1: industrial age, to slavery to colonialism, all the other sins

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Speaker 1: of the past made them a lot of money and

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Speaker 1: gave them a lot of influence and they still have it.

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Speaker 1: So of course, if you're an up and coming country, um,

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Speaker 1: you'll sometimes hear them referred to as the brick countries.

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Speaker 1: It's a little bit of a misnomer, but it's an

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Speaker 1: acronym that stands for Brazil, Russia, India, and China countries

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Speaker 1: like on that level, of course, you're gonna be frustrated

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Speaker 1: if some if some grand puba from the U N

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Speaker 1: comes to you and says, Okay, yeah, I'll destroy the planet.

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Speaker 1: Was all fine and dandy for us, but you guys

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Speaker 1: are gonna need to find a different, more expensive route

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Speaker 1: to our level of success. Funny voice, take a drink.

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Speaker 1: Was that a funny voice or was it my real voice?

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Speaker 1: So it's it's tough, it's tough, and people here valid concerns.

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Speaker 1: Big change rarely happens overnight, unless you're talking about like

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Speaker 1: POMPEII or another natural disaster. So, like you were talked

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Speaker 1: about earlier, Matt, things have to be phased in out

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Speaker 1: pretty slowly. This takes a huge level of commitment across administrations,

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Speaker 1: across governments, across continents, across generations, and it requires this

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Speaker 1: is even trickier thing. It requires everybody involved to imagine

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Speaker 1: a future that, for better or worse, does not yet exist.

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Speaker 1: We can just see the problems on the horizon. I

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Speaker 1: think I've got to I even have a note in

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Speaker 1: the outline, like, folks, we are past the tipping point.

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Speaker 1: We are. I was talking with UM. We have a

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Speaker 1: good friend of the show, very old friend of Noel's,

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Speaker 1: named Matt Riddle, and Matt Riddle and I were talking

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Speaker 1: about this recently. Um, maybe the best analogy for where

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Speaker 1: human civilization and climate changes now is to say this

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Speaker 1: and freestyling a little. But let's say you're still, for

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Speaker 1: some reason driving that horrid Peugio Honda Odyssey hybrid we

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Speaker 1: made up earlier, and you have careened off the road.

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Speaker 1: You were at the point in a car accident where

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Speaker 1: everything seems to slow down. You see the tree that

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Speaker 1: you're going to hit. You are going to hit the tree. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's just a question of how much time you have

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Speaker 1: to put your seatbelt on, whether you have time to

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Speaker 1: have an air bag or something like that. The car

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Speaker 1: crash is coming, and that's a scary thing for people

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Speaker 1: to think about. We don't want to think about it.

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Speaker 1: But the statistics are all there. We've mentioned the multiple

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Speaker 1: times in past episodes. Uh, like parts of the world

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Speaker 1: are going to be uninhabitable without around the clock technology

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Speaker 1: creating a more hospitable environment. And it's just true. I

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Speaker 1: mean Tool predicted it in the song Anema, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean what decades ago. California Bay, Yeah, Arizona Bay, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Arizona Bay. But basically it's that whole, you know, pretty

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Speaker 1: accepted idea that parts of California are going to fall

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Speaker 1: into the ocean. And again this isn't fearmongering. I mean

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Speaker 1: you can find multiple, i mean innumerable resources that that

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Speaker 1: that show the stats heading in that direction. It's also

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Speaker 1: probably why California is like ground zero for so much concern,

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Speaker 1: you know, conservation environmentalist kind of activism, because they're like

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Speaker 1: really at risk. Yeah, and that that event is further

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Speaker 1: off in the future where California falls away because of

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Speaker 1: kind of strong tectonic movements. But the stuff we are

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Speaker 1: talking about is is very real, especially the ones where

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Speaker 1: places will be underwater. And uh, the drought situation and

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Speaker 1: desertification of places is going to continue pretty rapidly, very

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Speaker 1: very second. Yeah, and it's just gonna get worse as

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Speaker 1: time goes on. It's gonna happen in your lifetime if

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Speaker 1: you're listening now, But what you should be even more

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Speaker 1: concerned about will be your loved ones you continue after you.

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Speaker 1: Real estate is going to become a much more dicey proposition,

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Speaker 1: and countries like the Maldives, for instance, are probably going

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Speaker 1: to be underwater pretty soon. Climate refugees are going to

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Speaker 1: continue to flee from these sorts of these sorts of

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Speaker 1: large scale changes. Uh, we're talking millions of people, hundreds

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Speaker 1: of thousands, millions on the way to you. If you

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Speaker 1: live in a place that will still be habitable, things

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Speaker 1: are going to become increasingly expensive and then they're going

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Speaker 1: to become unavailable. And that's something that I would pose

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Speaker 1: it was a foreign concept to many people living in

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Speaker 1: the United States until COVID shortages hit, Like I don't

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Speaker 1: think a lot of folks in the US are aware

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Speaker 1: that in a lot of other places in the world,

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Speaker 1: you will run into situations where you stuff just isn't there.

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Speaker 1: The grocery store shelves are empty, even if you have money.

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Speaker 1: Not to mention resource wars, you know, on a larger

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Speaker 1: scale that's already a thing that happens. Like there were

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Speaker 1: water wars disputes, you know between I believe Georgia and

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Speaker 1: Tennessee if I'm not mistaken, um that you know, and

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Speaker 1: those are real problems in terms of like potable water

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Speaker 1: and like who controls the resources, you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: not to get to doom and gloom, but like think

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Speaker 1: about how it was in mad Max Fury Road. That's

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Speaker 1: like the most extreme version of that. But I mean

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Speaker 1: water is it could be the most precious commodity of

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Speaker 1: them all. Yeah, and right now we're seeing legal battles,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of those situations, at least within

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Speaker 1: the United States, but those will quickly turn into more

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Speaker 1: intense situations, yes, hand to hand combat m h. And

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Speaker 1: if you want to if you want to look at

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Speaker 1: that going to the earlier idea of science fiction often

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Speaker 1: becoming fact nonfiction, do check out a great collection of

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Speaker 1: short stories called Pump six. One of those stories is

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Speaker 1: about is a pretty plot possible scenario about the future

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Speaker 1: of water and privatization. Or check out our episode on

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Speaker 1: World War three, our episode on water Wars, our YouTube

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Speaker 1: videos on it. The truth is out there, the facts

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Speaker 1: are in These are not these are not conspiracies. But

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Speaker 1: we're getting to the conspiracy. The big thing is conventional solutions,

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Speaker 1: as we've outlined, don't work. We can fill ours debating them,

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Speaker 1: their pros and cons They come in all sorts of forms.

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Speaker 1: You'll see the glossy pr pledges from insert company here,

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Speaker 1: Lego says this. McDonald says that you'll also see those

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Speaker 1: non binding resolutions from international organizations, you and committees. You'll

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Speaker 1: see any number of ted talks. You'll see sweeping declarations

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Speaker 1: from billionaires like Bill Gates says we need to fix

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Speaker 1: this or that or whatever. And to be clear, the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of those proposed solutions are made in good

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Speaker 1: faith and they're made by very intelligent people, but they

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Speaker 1: fall shorter their goals and they fade from the headlines.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense that they fade from the headlines because,

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Speaker 1: let's face it, the little conspiracy realist most people don't

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Speaker 1: like to think about the end of the world, especially

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Speaker 1: if they feel like they've got a pretty good right now.

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Speaker 1: They're also not sexy because they are long term solutions

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Speaker 1: that you know, people want instant gratification. So it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot to ask for people to

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Speaker 1: like think about ten years down the line when they

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Speaker 1: can have something yesterday, especially if you're only in office

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Speaker 1: for four to eight years. But yeah, seriously, I would

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Speaker 1: pause it. The biggest problem we face is that the

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Speaker 1: solutions to these problems are not inherently profitable. Inherentbly profitable joke, dude,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, who who pays you right now to

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Speaker 1: clean carbon out of the ocean. They're they're you know,

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Speaker 1: groups from colleges and companies that are attempting to you

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Speaker 1: that kind of work and developed technologies for that. But

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Speaker 1: who's gonna pay you outside of maybe a government grant

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Speaker 1: because you know, the citizens are paying more taxes so

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Speaker 1: that then it can happen. And it's just it's not

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Speaker 1: it's not immediately appealing to anyone other than each individual's

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Speaker 1: self preservation or the need for it. I mean maybe

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Speaker 1: once they figure out how to turn that ocean cleaning

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Speaker 1: stuff into like the spice melons or something, you know,

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Speaker 1: But other than that, it's it's pretty dire. That's where

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Speaker 1: you see more like neoliberal market based approaches. That's where

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Speaker 1: that's why outfits like the economists are always so twitter

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Speaker 1: painted about a carbon tax, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: And is that is that a viable solution. Some people

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Speaker 1: are convinced it is, other people are convinced it's not.

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Speaker 1: But but we are living in the sixth Great mass extinction.

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Speaker 1: For anybody who is looking for another example of a

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Speaker 1: mass extinct, and think about why we don't have dinosaurs anymore, right,

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00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: like we have things that survived from dinosaurs, chickens, it's etcetera.

427
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: But you're not going to see a t rex until

428
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: cloning goes, you know, cloning reaches and breakthroughs, or maybe

429
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: you'll see an n f T t rex. Who knows.

430
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: But the issue is, and I think about this a lot,

431
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: and I wish more people would mention this. We are

432
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: living in what is commonly called nowadays the anthroposine, right,

433
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: so you know about like the Plistine, etcetera. The anthroposine

434
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: is just a dressed up word for the age of humanity.

435
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: And it is overwhelmingly likely that the biggest legacy all

436
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: these people who have lived and died will end up

437
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: leaving is a wreck of earth. Is a mass extinction.

438
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: We're in the middle of it. It is happening. It

439
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: is possible that the idea of wildlife will sound like

440
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: a crazy story to your grandchildren. That's again, I'm not

441
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: being hyperbolic. This is happening, and this is something people

442
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: knew about for more than half a century. And this

443
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: frustration turned to desperation, and some folks said, we have

444
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: to go beyond writing letters. Are going to protest or

445
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: just recycling, you know, for five cent refunds. You know

446
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: what he's doing in a glass bottle or something. And

447
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: that's where we saw the rise of something called radical

448
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: environmentalism in the nineties sixties. And we can dive into

449
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: a little more of that ideology is the show goes on.

450
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: But from radical environmentalism we see the rise of people

451
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: in groups who decided, let's cut past these useless, doomed negotiations,

452
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: let's skip beyond the half measures, those so called toothless proposals,

453
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: let's take direct action. Today those people are known as

454
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: eco terrorist, But what are they? Will pause, We'll tell

455
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: you after a word from our sponsors. Here's where it

456
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: gets crazy, all right, I told you guys earlier, I

457
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: figured it out. My favorite eco terrorist, Captain Planet as

458
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: played by Don Cheatle. It's good sketch. I get you know,

459
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: I get it. I get it. I don't know if

460
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: I agree with him, but I get where he's coming from.

461
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: He is he's he's an eco terrorist. Uh, eco terrorists,

462
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: What does it mean? It's a portmanteau obviously, Uh, ecology

463
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: plus terrorism. It's a combo. Not quite as popular as

464
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: peanut butter and jelly. Uh. And at first glance, it

465
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: feels like a really loaded term, like you would hear

466
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: this on far right news. Right someone would say, these

467
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: people want to stop an oil pipeline, they're eco terrorist,

468
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And next up the war

469
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: on Christmas. It feels very very biased. But I found

470
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: something interesting. Uh, the the far left activists that were

471
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: described as eco terrorists, they had a war with the

472
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: far right to control the definition of that word, and

473
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: they were saying stuff like, hey, we're not the eco terrorists.

474
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: Ex on mobile is the eco terrorists. They are terrorizing

475
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: Earth with what they're doing. Unfortunately, the left lost that argument,

476
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: and so now when you hear eco terrorists you have

477
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: to be really conscious of the source because you might

478
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: just be hearing like a hit piece from a corporation

479
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: disguised as news. Absolutely not, no question about it. That

480
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: term has been weaponized. What would the weather underground be

481
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: considered eco terrorists, know they were domestic terrorists. They seem

482
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: more political specifically, but it all is kind of political

483
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: since the environment has been politicized, so you're kind of

484
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: fighting against policy too when you're when you're carrying out

485
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: some of these acts. Yeah. Yeah, the weather underground probably

486
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: has some Vin Diagram situation and some overlap in notable

487
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: individuals and so on. But they are they're not they're

488
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: not considered as focusing on environmental issues. They were more oriented,

489
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: as you said, toward political change. Like the big proponents

490
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: of communist ideology. Uh. I don't know when I hear

491
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: Like when I think of conservation environmental groups, I think

492
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: of like the pandal logo on the World Wildlife Fund

493
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: or Federation or whatever it's called, you know, the other

494
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: w WF. I think of like Sarah McGlaughlin telling you

495
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: to treat puppies better, the arms of the Angels. I

496
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: was just talking to my kid about that the other night.

497
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: She's never had the privilege of experiencing that ad campaign

498
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: with the sad puppies and the shelters and Sarah McLaughlin's

499
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: Saddest song in the world, especially when paired with sad puppies. Yeah, yeah,

500
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: but this is like, like, when you think of this

501
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: kind of activism, you probably have a stereotype in your head. Right,

502
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: there's this there's a scent of patuli wafting through the air.

503
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: Someone's playing a sitar, everybody is wearing something that's somehow

504
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: made out of hemp. You probably don't think of people

505
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: launching RPGs at nuclear facilities, but that's part and parcel

506
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: of this. Uh. Eco terrorists are defined by their tactics

507
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: more so than their ideology, but ideology is part of it. Uh.

508
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: These are acts. They're perpetrating acts of violence against people

509
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: or property or companies with the aim of not killing folks,

510
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: but disrupting actions that they feel are damaging to the environment.

511
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: And the word itself is is kind of new. It's

512
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: from like the nineteen sixties, you can call it. Nineteen

513
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: seventies gets popularized. But the idea of using getty a

514
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: tactics to fight the power is a it's like surprisingly old.

515
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: A lot of people have done this. A lot of

516
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: people like banded together in sort of a we must

517
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: protect the wild kind of vibe. Uh. One example is

518
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: in France in eighteen seven, a bunch of peasants revolted

519
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: against the government's new codes regarding forestry and how to

520
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: harvest resources from the forest, who could do what, etcetera.

521
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: And they went into a full out war. It's called

522
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: the War of the Maidens. So they didn't call it

523
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: eco terrorism, but that's what it was. That's what we

524
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: will call it today. The French take foraging very seriously.

525
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: And then additionally, take the example of indigenous native populations

526
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: in the America's when Europeans came to colonize this, and

527
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: they have very different philosophies on how humans should relate

528
00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: to the land. Right, native populations thought to protect their philosophy,

529
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: which was clearly less exploitative than the pitch that these

530
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: uh colonials were coming in with. It's weird. A ton

531
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: of people throughout history have fought wars over how they

532
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: feel land should be used or preserved. And when we

533
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: talk about eco terrorists, there are real, genuine groups that

534
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: can be described as such. It's not it's important to say,

535
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: it's not like one loan actor, right, It's not some

536
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: quote unquote unstable person going rogue. Right. These are groups

537
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: who get together for this purpose. And I was surprised

538
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: to find that the FBI back in two thousand eight

539
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: specifically name checked eco terrorists as quote one of the

540
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: most serious domestic terrorism threats in the US today, and

541
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: they backed up the reasoning too, like they had At

542
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: first I thought, no, I don't know, you guys are exaggerating,

543
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: but then they laid out they lay doubt the rationale,

544
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: and it does make sense that they would describe them

545
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: as a serious threat. Yes, And this assessment was due

546
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: to the volume of crimes over two thousand known incidents

547
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy nine to two thousand eight, and if

548
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: you think about the economic impact of those incidents, it

549
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: was over a hundred and ten million dollars. And that

550
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: also includes the wide range of victims, the you know,

551
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: the companies and things that were impacted by the actions

552
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: and incidents. Um, the FBI saw an increasing trend towards violence.

553
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: And there was also a two thousand four FBI document

554
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,919
Speaker 1: you can read on archives dot FBI dot gov that's

555
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: from two four and it just it's the same kind

556
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: of thing. It's a judiciary committee where they're talking about

557
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: the extreme seriousness of eco terrorism and they they're taking

558
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: it very very seriously. And then at this point of course,

559
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: this is where we all have to have that gut

560
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: check with ourselves and say how much do I trust

561
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: the FBI? Get to that part two. Yeah, we get

562
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: to that part two. But let's let's talk about some

563
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: specific groups have been described as eco terrorists. There's Earth

564
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 1: Liberation Front or ELF. I know it's the LF, but

565
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: I like saying ELF. There's Stop Huntington's Animal Cruelty or

566
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: SHACK or you know, Personal Favorite Animal Liberation Front ALF.

567
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: I just like that itself. Is any cats? Do you

568
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: think I was wondering about that too? I haven't haven't

569
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: emailed them yet. It's not very eco friendly. Well eating cat,

570
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah that's true. Well if you if you get rid

571
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: of cats, you're saving birds. So a lot of these

572
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: groups are usually going to be focused on two things.

573
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: One some version or genre of radical environmentalism or two uh,

574
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: some kind of animal rights initiative. And and people may

575
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: try and label other groups as eco terrorists, but there's

576
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: there's differences. Consider the c Shepherd group that we looked

577
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: at not that long ago, the one that you know

578
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: had a ship back in the sixties and seventies. I

579
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: can't remember the exact timeframe of Sea Shepherds activities, but

580
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 1: it was in the seventies where they were going around

581
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: and actually running into ships that were wailing off the

582
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: coast of Japan, where they're they're taking violent action. Right.

583
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: The weird thing, the kind of gray area that it

584
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: leads you to though, is that c Shepherd was generally

585
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,479
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say this, generally fighting against people that were

586
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: taking illegal actions or actions that were legal in you know,

587
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: to some country, to some you know group would consider

588
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: it illegal even though maybe it's not illegal in one

589
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: other country. Um, it's just a weird gray area that

590
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: can exist there because I'm also thinking about other groups

591
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: that are animal rights activists but are not animal rights

592
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: they don't take part in animal rights terrorism necessarily. But

593
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: it's right on the line, it feels like, because it

594
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: just depends on the definition. It feels like like throwing

595
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: paint on a fur coat or something like that, like

596
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: is that a prank? Is that act of terrorism? Etcetera.

597
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: P But it goes deeper than that to uh, with

598
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: some other groups and I'm not even gonna name right now,

599
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: but I don't know that that kind of thing is

600
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: is a bit weird because it well, let's talk about

601
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: Sea Shepherd again. I'm having such trouble saying Sea Shepherd. Um,

602
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: you're nailing it. They're the ones that that are concerned

603
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: with like the dolphin slaughter in Japan and things like that. Right,

604
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,439
Speaker 1: and they've got an amazing ship that looks like it's

605
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: it means business. It looks like a warship. Yeah, it's

606
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: pretty shout out by the way to all our friends

607
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: in New Zealand who rope to us. Uh. In regards

608
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: to that episode, that's where the event with the Sea

609
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: Shepherd occur. Uh. Do check out that episode and don't

610
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: let that story be forgotten. And you know it was France.

611
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: France did it. France did what would be considered an

612
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: act of terrorism in that case. Uh. And the name

613
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: of the ship was the Rainbow Warrior. But as that's right,

614
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: what a great name ship. Don't don't let the name

615
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: fool you. It is not a warm, fuzzy care bear

616
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: type of ship. It's built for business. Uh. Anyway, now

617
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: we know that eco terrorism as a concept is it's

618
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: not maybe quite what the name implies, because when you

619
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: think of terrorism, you think of things like purposeful mass

620
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: casualty events. You think of the Nine elevens, you think

621
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: of um bombings or gassings on trains, you think of

622
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: suicide bombers. The vast majority of acts described as eco

623
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: terrorism are meant to disrupt at activity, And in fact,

624
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: you'll hear people who are involved in these groups and

625
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: people who lead these groups saying that they intentionally avoid

626
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 1: harming humans or animals, or that they do everything in

627
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: their power to make sure no one gets hurt. But

628
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: when the palm oil hits the chocolate, of course, these

629
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: things can resulted injuries and fatalities. And I think we

630
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: especially which is something that happen. Yes, yes, exactly. Like

631
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: we're not talking about your garden variety protests. We're not

632
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: talking about just culture jamming, although culture jamming is a

633
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: really cool thing. Shout out to all the Discordians in

634
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: the crowd. Today, we are talking about things like sabotage,

635
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: arson bombing. Um, most of the actions aren't that extreme,

636
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: you know. Um, there's stuff like like tree spiking. Have

637
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: you guys heard about tree spiking? Just just from reading

638
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: the research on this episode, it's it's definitely interesting. Reminds

639
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: me of like, you know, I think there's a lot

640
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: of misinformation around the like the idea of lead the

641
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 1: Luddites or whatever, like sabotaging printing presses. It's the idea

642
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: of you know, sabotaging a supply chain or something that

643
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: does not ideologically sit right with you. And I guess

644
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 1: what you you put? You put things in, hammer spikes

645
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: in the tree so that it would damage equipment potentially. Yeah,

646
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: but it's not just equipment. It would get damaged right

647
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: because there are people on the other side of those chainsaws.

648
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: Is the problem, that's the flaw in the system there.

649
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: So tree spiking is exactly like you described. You sneak

650
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: onto a logging site or a future logging site and

651
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: you hammer in some spikes in the trunk of a

652
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: tree around where somebody would be attempting to cut the

653
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: tree down. This is not gonna kill the tree. It's

654
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: not going to do serious damage to it, just like

655
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: tapping a tree from maple syrup is not going to

656
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: kill the tree. So what they're doing is there Essentially,

657
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 1: it's like if these trees were people. Imagine if there

658
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: was a way you could make everybody get an ear

659
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: ring or a nose ring, and it meant that they

660
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: wouldn't be shot in the street. That's a weird analogy,

661
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: but that's almost one to one really quickly. I know

662
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: the ledites did not damage printing press. It was like

663
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: cotton mills, woolen mills and cotton gins and things like that.

664
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: I'm seeing if mad'll let me slide with that terrible analogy,

665
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: I'm still thinking about it. All right, Well, they're not

666
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: all going to be winners. Were working. But but the

667
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,959
Speaker 1: problem with this is, like million equipment, uh could also

668
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: be affected by these tree spikes. If you have ever,

669
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: if you've had munch experience logging or with a chainsaw,

670
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: you know that they can be quite dangerous if something

671
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: goes wrong. Right, So, in at least one case, this

672
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: practice of tree biking did result in a serious injury,

673
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: but not a fatality. And so far none of the

674
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: tree spiking things in particular have led to fatalities. They're

675
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: meant to be disruptive, yeah, and it's also not led

676
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,439
Speaker 1: to a major change in how the logging companies continue on.

677
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: You just get more equipment ding ding, because and then

678
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: you've made you you're essentially creating waste of large you know,

679
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: metal filled equipment that's just gonna go into a garbage

680
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: eep somewhere. Uh, that's good if you're someone trying to

681
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: do good by taking this kind of action, right, and

682
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: then you could say, well, well it's it's still on

683
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: balance a good thing to do because I am saving

684
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: some trees. Maybe the logging company will say, we don't

685
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: know how many trees have been spiked. We can't check everyone,

686
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: so we're gonna at least hold off unlinking. You know,

687
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: we're gonna hold off on this part of our operation.

688
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: But I would argue a lot of this stuff, a

689
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: lot of these activities and tactics are just examples of

690
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: the larger concept of sabotage, which is known as monkey wrenching.

691
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: Sabotage is a cool word with great etymology. Leave you

692
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: to discover it. Um they There's also another buzzword I found,

693
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: which I don't like. It's very rare for me to

694
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 1: hate a word. But echo taj Do you guys ever

695
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: hear that one? You know? Is that like is that

696
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: like making like like scrap booking sabotaging stuff for uh

697
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: a local ecological system? You know, it occurs to me

698
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: with the whole spiking thing, and like you know your point,

699
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: Mad about Well, they just get new equipment. Uh not

700
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: only that is get new equipment, They just make it

701
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: harder for like, you know, the workers that they add

702
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: more security you know to the sites and and make

703
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 1: it more prohibitive to work there in the same way

704
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: that like the t say, after nine eleven, like you know,

705
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: the terrorists did not win except in making us have

706
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: to you know, take our shoes off, which then causes

707
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: the price of lumber to rise just slightly because the

708
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: company has to charge more money to hire more people,

709
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: which then makes you want to make more because it's

710
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: going to be more profitable. Oh god, you see the

711
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: feedback loop. Yes, and and uh so listen everyone, it's

712
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: eco tag whatever. Do so on to a parody song

713
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: of that. I will write the lyrics for that, and

714
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: we can we can be the Beastie Boys for a second.

715
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: But but this, these actions, the symphasis on sabotage is

716
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: in a very large way inspired by a novel written

717
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: by a guy named Edward Abbey in the name of

718
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 1: the novel, The Monkey Wrench Gang. The Monkey Wrench Gang

719
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: follows a Vietnam that former prisoner of war named George

720
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 1: hay Duke who is trying to fight back against people

721
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: polluting the southwestern desert where he lives, and he loves

722
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: the land, so he has a campaign of sabotage. This

723
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 1: inspires the creation of these real life eco terrorist groups

724
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: such as Earth First. You have to say it that

725
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: way because the exclamation marks in the name irma gird

726
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: Earth First. Exactly. It sounds so nice, so does Elf

727
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: and alf. It sounds although none of it looks none

728
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: of it seems that nice when it's spray painted on

729
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: the side of a trailer, because I've seen numerous versions

730
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: of it, just like hastily scrawled. You know what else

731
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 1: sounds like the Monkey wrench Gang sounds like a charming

732
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: Disney film from the forties, like the Apple Dumpling Gang,

733
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. The The

734
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 1: thing here is that those acts, those disruptive acts that

735
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: are kind of in that gray area we've described, like

736
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: what what could be called just vandalism or prank versus

737
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: what what do you call terrorism? I mean, the FBI

738
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: is pretty loose with their definition of terrorism, and you

739
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: could say that's by necessity. You could say that there

740
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: is a financial motivation because the more things that can

741
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: be classified as terrorism. Uh, the more funding you can

742
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: get for counter terrorism, right, that's another feedback loop. But

743
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: there are things that are very serious, very dangerous crimes.

744
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: One would be arson ELF in particular, the YLF became

745
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 1: infamous throughout the nineties and early two thousands for pretty

746
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: consistent decentralized arson sabotage kind of campaign. They included the

747
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: arson of a ski resort and then other acts of

748
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: arson were okay, I got thoughts on this with guys.

749
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 1: Other acts of arson were things like housing developments, construction sites,

750
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: auto dealerships, chain stores. I want to share an example

751
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: of something that is really stuck with me, and I

752
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: was thinking about this, was researching the ethical dilemmas at

753
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: play in this episode. So we have a chain restaurant

754
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: here in Atlanta in the US called Chick fil A.

755
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: Chick fil A, I'm pretty much a cyclical basis, will

756
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: get bad press in the news because they have in

757
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: the past supported things that are like anti same sex marriage.

758
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 1: Very it's it's a very conservative Christian based chicken joint.

759
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: And there when this this spiked again a few years ago,

760
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: and an old spike again in the future because Chick

761
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: fil A is not really going to change, right, They've

762
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: seen that. They don't lose a ton of money, so

763
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: they're they're you know, they're not going to be compelled

764
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: to change their ideology. Think of all the money they

765
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: could make just staying open on Sunday. I mean, they

766
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: are committed to the bit here, right, and look full disclosure, true,

767
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: Cathy gave me money and tons of his books when

768
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: I became an Eagle scout and I cashed the check.

769
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I was a broke teenager.

770
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: So I'm in a glasshouse here. Yeah, and where we live.

771
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: The lines for Chick fil A's never go down. It

772
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what time it is. There's always a massive

773
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: line and they move super quickly. Those places make bank.

774
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: They got it down to a science. Man. Yeah, the

775
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: logistics are yeah, no shame in that. The logistics are amazing.

776
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: But here's why I'm bringing up Chick fil A and

777
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: the controversy with their political funding. There was a video

778
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: that went viral of this guy who goes to a

779
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: Chick fil A drive through. And maybe you guys have

780
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: seen this, maybe some of our fellow listeners have seen this.

781
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 1: This guy goes to a Chick fil A drive through.

782
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: He's filming on his cell phone. And there's this there's

783
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: this kid. She's a teenager. She has to work the

784
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: drive through at the Chick fil A, And this guy

785
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: is exc gorriating this child, screaming, screaming at this kid,

786
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: making her cry because of Chick fil A's conservative political ideology.

787
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: And that's super unfair because this kid has nothing to

788
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 1: do with that. This kid is just like slinging sandwiches

789
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: and probably wants to get an A on her geometry

790
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: quiz the next day. And that's like, that's what I

791
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: think about when I when I hear about someone's like,

792
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: you work at a dealership and the dealership gets bombed.

793
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 1: What are you the one at the u N who

794
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 1: makes decisions about carbon emissions? No? You like you mop

795
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 1: the floor at a place that sells s U V s?

796
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: Are you used to now you're now you're out of

797
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: a job. What is that great or good? I don't know.

798
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: I think you can lose humanity very easily in those

799
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: sorts of situations. It makes me want to drill down

800
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 1: into this. The veil Colorado Arson that we described that

801
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 1: the Earth Liberation Front UH did that was specifically the

802
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: one in Veil, Colorado happened in I believe. Um. If

803
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: you if you find like the there's an independent article

804
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: that was written at the time about it that goes

805
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: through some of the specifics and you learn how it's

806
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: actually carried out. How there you know, they were supposedly

807
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: going to be timed, uh, not explosive advices, but devices

808
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: that would cause a fire to start on a gas tank.

809
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: And they were set up all around this this ski

810
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: resort in Veil, Colorado, and it took two people to

811
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: carry out the actual event where they set fire to

812
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 1: at least three buildings and the fire spread after that point.

813
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: There's an interesting moment in that article specifically that says

814
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 1: the person that set the fires noticed there were human

815
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: beings in one of the buildings where he had planned

816
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: to set the fire, but chose not to set the

817
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: fire in that building. Um, which kind of you know,

818
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: makes speaks to the points that we've been mentioning this

819
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: whole time. The attempt isn't to kill the human uh.

820
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: The attempt is to stop a larger thing from happening.

821
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,240
Speaker 1: In this case, it was the expansion of this Veil

822
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: ski resort out there in Colorado. Because they were going

823
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: to take over more of the land that was, you know,

824
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: at least according to this group's beliefs that land should

825
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: be kept natural right, And it was one of the

826
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: last places where Oh lord, I'm having a hard time

827
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: we're calling the article, but I believe it was one

828
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: of the last refuges for the links, the cat links. UM,

829
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: I think you're correct. It's interesting too. There's another situation

830
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: with ELF that really shows how the the the period

831
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: you guys described where the government was really out to

832
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: get these types of groups and and they were made

833
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: a really big priority. Uh, no matter what it took. Um.

834
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: There is a guy who is a member of ELF

835
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: who is essentially, I don't know, framed I guess more

836
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: or less um by an FBI informant who infiltrated the group.

837
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: Um you only referred to as Anna in the in

838
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: the court proceedings and all that. And apparently she acted

839
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:17,760
Speaker 1: as an agent provocateur, at least according to this guy's lawyer.

840
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,879
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. The guy's game, by the way, was Eric

841
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: McDavid UM, and his lawyer made the argument that this Anna,

842
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: who was providing them with bomb making information and materials

843
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: and things like that, and like paying for them to

844
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: live and you know, renting a cabin for them to

845
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: like build the bombs in transportation. All this stuff was acting,

846
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: you know, coercing them into making plans to bomb this

847
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: damn the nimbus damn. Uh and also the U. S.

848
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: Forest Service and other utilities in the area. Uh. And

849
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: this guy got off. He served eight years and some change.

850
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: But UM, that agent provocateur argument ultimately you know, convinced

851
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: the judge to have him released. Um. And that happened

852
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen, after he spent eight years and and

853
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: some change of his life, you know, behind bars, and

854
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: he can't get those eight years back. Also check out

855
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: our earlier episode. Does the FBI manufacture terrorists? The answer

856
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: is yes, unfortunately or certainly attempt to. Um. The real

857
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 1: question is the motivations and the level of awareness they

858
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: had when they were doing this. But you can you know,

859
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 1: that's similar to the story about the mosque who reported

860
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: an FBI undercover agent for trying to turn people into suicide. Oops.

861
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: UH lightened up a little bit there with the yeah.

862
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: And this is a great set up for for a

863
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 1: part of our final act to day. I do want

864
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: to point out something that's a little bit cynical here, Matt.

865
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: You point you noted that U e l F members

866
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 1: during the ski resort Arson, one of them did decide

867
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: not to blow up a building because he was worried

868
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: that he would injure or kill people. Understandable thing, and

869
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:07,240
Speaker 1: it's in line with the stated goals of these organizations. However,

870
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: there is a there is a slightly less possible noble

871
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: motivation for this. And this is something there's something you

872
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: might not know if you're not super acquainted with the

873
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 1: criminal world. But if you are perpetrating certain acts and

874
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: you already know what crimes you are going to be committing,

875
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: you want to try to h do your best to

876
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: avoid more serious charges. That's why that's why sometimes in robberies, right,

877
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 1: if you see someone get shot, you'll you'll find that

878
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 1: some criminals will purposely shoot someone kind of like below

879
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 1: the waist or in below the knee and the leg

880
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: because then it doesn't count as attempted murder. Right is

881
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 1: the concept. Now that your mileage may vary, please don't

882
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: mug people and shoot them up least, you know, just

883
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: try not to kill anybody. I feel like that's a

884
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,240
Speaker 1: very low bar to set try not to kill people. Um,

885
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 1: but there I bring that up only because I'm wondering

886
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: whether there was some kind of calculus like that, whether

887
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,359
Speaker 1: it's they said, look, if we do get caught for this,

888
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 1: we don't want to be charged with murder, right, you

889
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,959
Speaker 1: just have to make space for it. Personally, I think

890
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: they probably just didn't want to hurt actual people. But again,

891
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 1: it's tough to know people's inner motivations. You know who

892
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: we could ask about it is Josephine Sunshine over Acre,

893
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: the one who got away, currently believed to be at

894
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: large in Europe, wanted by the FBI. Josephine, if you're listening,

895
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: would would love to have you on the show. We

896
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: just have to find you. So which g e lf

897
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 1: She was associated with the attacks that Matt was talking about,

898
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: And there was one guy who just got arrested and

899
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: he was on the run for more than a decade,

900
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: but one of them did get away. Anyhow, this is

901
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: still not the most extreme example. You were promised an RPG,

902
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realist, and at this point you're asking yourself,

903
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: where is my RPG? Just like you know Dennis in

904
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: Always Stunnying Philadelphia. Here it is actual bombing travel of

905
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: France two January. Eco terrorists are super mad that there's

906
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: a nuclear reactor being built, a nuclear power plant called

907
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 1: super Phoenix, which sounds so frush right, uh so in

908
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: in in the midst of these protests, these attempts to

909
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: shut down construction, sam eco terrorists actually got RPGs, military

910
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: grade rocket propelled grenade devices from a known arms dealer,

911
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: Carlos the Jackal. That's really what he's called. There's the

912
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: movie The Jackal with what's his name, Bruce Willis, Carlos

913
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: the Jackal. Yeah, real dude gave gave these folks of

914
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:13,320
Speaker 1: RPGs and they fired them at a nuclear power plant

915
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: it was granted still under construction. And years later somebody

916
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: came out and admitted the responsibility for the attack, a

917
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 1: guy named Kayam Neesom, who went on to become a

918
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: Swiss politician. And this guy is good at politics. You

919
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: could tell just from just from a quote we pulled

920
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: his statement of the events. He later, you know, talked

921
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: about this in a book. His statement of the events

922
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 1: shows us a rationale that's pretty common with a lot

923
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: of these direct action groups, and it's um, I don't

924
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: know I'd love I'd love to hear everybody's take on it.

925
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: Who wants to who's got a good, high, niesome voice.

926
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 1: I know that it might sound odd to consider rockets

927
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: as a non violent means of action. However, we took

928
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: every imaginable precaution to be certain that no worker was

929
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: at risk of being hit. Therefore, we committed a non

930
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: violent attack. This is me with an RPG. What what

931
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: I mean? In a weird way, It's true, it is

932
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: a non violent attack in a way. It's true. In

933
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: another way, is very very much not. That's the only

934
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: non violent RPG I know about involves a twenty sided die. Right, Yeah,

935
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: this So I thought that was interesting because you can

936
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,919
Speaker 1: see you can see the rationale. It's textbook rationale. And

937
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: to Neison's credit, no one was injured by that RPG attack.

938
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: But we're we're gonna pause for a moment. We know

939
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: today's episode is running a little long, but we're gonna pause.

940
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: We're gonna come back and talk a little bit more

941
00:58:54,440 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: about what this all means. And we have returned, so

942
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 1: to some this up, we have to talk about the

943
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 1: importance of perspective, right, the importance of empathy, humanity and

944
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: and the cliff upon which this civilization is teetering. For

945
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: a lot of us in the audience today, the ethical

946
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 1: dilemmas are clear. First, yes, Earth is in a bad way,

947
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: and second, yes, humans are responsible. And without dismissing the massive,

948
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: massive efforts of various institutions, we have to note that

949
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 1: they have not been as effective as people had hoped.

950
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, and I think there's something

951
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 1: we're talking about throughout the length of this show, how

952
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: effective are these actions in the grand scheme of things.

953
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: Eco terrorism has added more fuel to the flame of

954
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 1: the surveillance state, and as a result, countless innocent people

955
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: are targeted for surveillance. There is so much money in

956
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: that industry. Yes, surveillance is an industry, But I'm just saying,

957
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: being on the mailing list of a vegan co op

958
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: shouldn't mean someone is automatically getting treated as the next

959
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden. Like, I don't think you should be

960
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: tracked for those kind of things, but it's proven that

961
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: the FBI is doing that. And you know, we can

962
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: say all terrorism is regardless of ideology, it's inherently conspiratorial.

963
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: Right you are conspiring to do something and terrorism. Well,

964
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 1: you know, people don't mention this as often as they should,

965
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: but terrorism is also in some ways an opportunity for

966
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,919
Speaker 1: intelligence agencies, for people involved in the world of surveillance,

967
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: because it it gives them an enemy, right, it gives

968
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: them something to fight and pursue. And you could argue,

969
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: then this is just there's a valid argument. I don't

970
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: know what the answer is, but you could argue that

971
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: through these acts, these eco terrorists, direct action groups, whatever

972
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 1: you want to call them, may actually be empowering the

973
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: growth of some of the entities they seek to fight.

974
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: You know, I I think about that all the time.

975
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: Like they are targeting the people who literally bankroll politicians, Right,

976
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 1: that's a lot different from knocking over a dollar store

977
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: or something, you know. Uh. And then we talked about

978
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: all the time the people on the ground, what's their perspective.

979
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: They're just people like anyone else. The average person on

980
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: an oil drilling platform isn't some arch supervillain from Captain Planet.

981
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 1: They're just trying to not get fired, you know what

982
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 1: I mean. They want to go on vacation someday, they

983
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: want to get home safe, and they're not dumb. In fact,

984
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: most people. If they're given the opportunity and the space

985
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: to really think things through, most people are incredibly intelligent.

986
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 1: It means the people who are working on these oil rigs,

987
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 1: they are aware of the problems posed by the oil industry.

988
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 1: In fact, they probably know more about it than people

989
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: were outside of the industry. They know what they're doing,

990
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 1: and they're not They're not trying to ruin the planet.

991
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 1: They're trying to stay alive. Also, this is to me,

992
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: this is the big thing about a lot of these

993
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 1: sorts of tactics. Is it not clear that most people

994
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: react adversely to hostile action. Violence is very rarely gonna

995
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: prompt some come to Jesus critical thinking moment on the

996
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: part of the victim. You know, those folks who are

997
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 1: whaling chips. If they get if they get slammed into

998
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 1: by a sea shepherd vessel or whatever, if there's someone's

999
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: throwing stink bombs on them, someone's trashing their equipment, they're

1000
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:43,959
Speaker 1: not gonna say, oh, snap, good point, we should change

1001
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 1: our lives, you know what I mean. They're gonna be pissed,

1002
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: will build back twice as you know powerful, you know,

1003
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 1: come back on them twofold. That's that's the way. That's

1004
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: what that prompts exactly, because that is I want everyone

1005
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: to hear. The capital letter is here. That is how

1006
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 1: humans are, for better or worse. It's been this way

1007
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: for a while. It's not going to change. And then

1008
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 1: on the other side, the people that the media are

1009
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 1: calling eco terrorists, they don't think of themselves as the

1010
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: bad guys, and they don't all agree. They're not monolithic.

1011
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 1: Some are issues specific, save the whales, save the redwood,

1012
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: save the Amazon, etcetera. And some are more extreme. Some

1013
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: people want to return the world to a pre industrial age,

1014
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: which is not going to happen unless some really terrible

1015
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 1: stuff happens first. But boy keep coming back to and

1016
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 1: I think what we all keep coming back to is

1017
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 1: simply this. The numbers are in. We've mentioned the various

1018
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 1: statistics that have been confirmed multiple times by multiple reputable sources.

1019
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 1: Things are going to get worse before they get better.

1020
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: And conventional approaches just don't seem to be moving the needle.

1021
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 1: And that's where we get to the end of the show.

1022
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 1: The questions, their questions, the ones really managed to answer

1023
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 1: what should be done? What can be done? You know,

1024
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: the clock is ticking and I know the three of

1025
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 1: us didn't take any um, any really hard stance on

1026
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 1: for it or against it quote unquote eco terrorism, because like,

1027
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot to unpack here. Um, I don't know.

1028
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 1: I understand the impulse. I understand the frustration that would

1029
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,439
Speaker 1: lead to thinking that the only way forward is through

1030
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 1: extreme action. I think it's misguided oftentimes, but also like,

1031
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: what's the alternative? It's so hard to get things done

1032
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 1: through policy, you know, it's so hard, and it's just

1033
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: like a slog mind numbing. It makes you want to

1034
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 1: give up. What's the term? He has been cautiously nihilistic,

1035
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 1: optimistically nihilistic. Sorry, I'm gonna take you back to that movie.

1036
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: Don't look up again. That's on Netflix or I know

1037
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 1: if you want to watch it. There's a great companion

1038
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 1: podcast called The Last Movie Ever Made. It talks with

1039
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: the cast and crew about how they made it, but

1040
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 1: specifically it goes to the writing process of the script

1041
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 1: itself and why it was created. And the reason it

1042
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: was created is because Adam McKay was looking at the

1043
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: climate change issue and realized all the things we've talked

1044
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: about today, the inevitability of the consequences that there's nothing

1045
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 1: that any individual can do. It feels like no change

1046
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: can occur, and he just we all know that it's coming,

1047
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,120
Speaker 1: and the people who are in charge, who could you know,

1048
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: possibly make changes, can't make changes because their hands are tied,

1049
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: or they decide not to because it's not politically a

1050
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 1: good thing for them to do. And he turned it

1051
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 1: into a movie about an asteroid heading towards Earth rather

1052
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: than just the you know, slow death of life on

1053
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: the planet. Uh. I would just recommend everybody go and

1054
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: listen to that, just if you really want a good downer.

1055
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 1: But it lets you. But it really speaks to the

1056
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: desperation we're talking about here of why somebody would throw

1057
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 1: up their hands and say, well, I'm going to set

1058
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: fire to some of these freaking buildings. Maybe that will

1059
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 1: change something. Yeah, I mean the other the other alternative

1060
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 1: is to try to go rage against the machine, right

1061
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 1: the g ride. I want the machines that are making

1062
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 1: them right to the difference companies that create the problems.

1063
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 1: But that is simply not possible for the majority of humanity.

1064
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 1: People can't just buy companies. It's the riot versus protest distinction,

1065
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Where it's like people are

1066
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: protesting and you know, some things get destroyed. Is that

1067
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 1: protesting or is that being cast as a riot as

1068
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 1: a political way of framing it to to make it,

1069
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: to spin it in a way that makes the protesters

1070
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 1: look like criminals. Yeah, I think there's shades of that

1071
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 1: in this right. That's all agreed. Yeah, And these are

1072
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 1: these are excellent points, and this is this is something

1073
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 1: that's mission critical to human civilization. It's unprecedented. People aren't

1074
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: sure what the right answers are, what the order of

1075
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,880
Speaker 1: operations are, and so that's where we lean on you,

1076
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists. What do you think? Do you agree

1077
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 1: with groups that advocate direct action to disrupt damage to

1078
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: the environment or are these groups, with the best of intentions,

1079
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 1: ultimately giving more power to the same forces they're attempting

1080
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: to fight. Should law enforcement be monitoring activists and if so,

1081
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 1: to what degree? We cannot wait to hear your thoughts.

1082
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: We try to be easy to find online. Hey, do

1083
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 1: you like social media? We got those. We are at

1084
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff on Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube. Check out this

1085
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 1: video right now on YouTube if you want to. This

1086
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 1: whole podcast is in video format. Most of it broken

1087
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 1: up into pieces probably, but is there You can watch

1088
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 1: our faces say things like this. Actually no, you probably

1089
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:03,040
Speaker 1: can't even see this part because they cut it out

1090
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 1: of the video on YouTube. Jokes on me. If you

1091
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 1: don't like those, then hey, check out Instagram. We are

1092
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: at Conspiracy Stuff Show. Or if you want to issue

1093
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 1: social media, UM, throw throw a wrench in the works

1094
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:22,640
Speaker 1: that is the Internet and the more old school. You

1095
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 1: can find us on the telephone at one eight three

1096
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 1: three S td W I t K. You'll hear the

1097
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 1: sound of Ben's dulcet tones echoing through your ears. UM.

1098
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 1: And then you can you know, with the phone effect

1099
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 1: on it. Uh, And then you can leave a message.

1100
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 1: Three minutes is the time that is yours to do

1101
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:40,640
Speaker 1: with what you will UM. Three minutes after that it

1102
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: will cut you off. You can call back again if

1103
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 1: you really need to, but you know, try to the

1104
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 1: economy of language, I think is an important thing not

1105
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 1: to mention that if you do have something that's going

1106
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: to take you more than three minutes to tell us,

1107
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,599
Speaker 1: you can do so via text, m via typing, via

1108
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 1: via words uh. And you can send that to us

1109
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 1: via a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at

1110
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 1: i heart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want You

1111
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 1: to Know is a production of I heart Radio. For

1112
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart radio, visit the i heart

1113
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:30,920
Speaker 1: radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1114
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:31,639
Speaker 1: favorite shows.