1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,239 Speaker 1: those of the authors and participants and do not necessarily 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: represent those of iHeart Media, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: This series contains discussions of violence and sexual violence. Listener 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: discretion is advised. Previously an algorithm. I feel I should 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: have got locked over them. Yeah, I'll beat her, I 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: rape you, rape you. I standard y'all call it right, 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: but we don't call it ran in streets like you 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: pay here? So what is she complaining about? After Vaughan's 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: release from prison in August, he moved back to Gary 11 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: first time. He really didn't go over okay and true 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: World War for for a couple of days, and in January, 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: Vaughan appears to have committed the first of his confirmed murders, 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: killing twenty eight year old Tierra Baby and Way call 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: it never happened. Her fiance, Marvin Clinton, investigated her disappearance 16 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: and discovered a man, likely Vaughan, had stolen her cell 17 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: phone and was using it to call prostitutes, and Marvin 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: says he took that information to the police. He didn't 19 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: have me thank but from that point on it what 20 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: he did would director. I have no idea. And around 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: that same time, another woman had a run in with Vond. 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: She was one of the very first person that ever 23 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: weighing into HOW, but she happened to get away from HOW. 24 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: From I Heart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. This is Algorithm 25 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: and I'm ben Key Brick at eleven am. On February, 26 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: just over a month after Tierra Batty disappeared, Darren Von 27 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: contacted a woman who placed an ad as an escort 28 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: on backpage dot com. That's the same site that Von 29 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: would later use to contact Africa Hardy. The woman who 30 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: will call Sarah, came forward with her story after Vaughn 31 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: was arrested and she saw his picture on the news. 32 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: Detective Ford looked into it. He found the report that 33 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: Sarah had initially filed, and then went out to interview her. 34 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: How did it make you feel when you saw him 35 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: on the news? Ford recorded this interview. With the way 36 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: it's recorded, you can hear him well and how do 37 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: you spell your last name? But many of Sarah's responses 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: aren't audible. Luckily I got access to Detective Ford's report 39 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: about this interview, so try to fill in some of 40 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: the gaps. When the audio isn't clear. I'd prefer to 41 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: hear things firsthand from Sarah, and I reached out to 42 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: her for comment, but I couldn't get in touch. You 43 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: can tell from the get go that she doesn't trust police, 44 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: which makes sense given her story. And I know it's 45 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: hard for you to believe, but we're here to try 46 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: to help himself. Okay, how did you wind up meeting 47 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: this guy? You had a back page ad, so you 48 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: were in Chicago, you drove the Gary. Okay, so you 49 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: met him at one house and he asked you to 50 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: drive to another one. Now, how did you find it? 51 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: Did he give you directions to it? Or did you 52 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: put it like in your phone for GPS? So he 53 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: just told you kind of how to get there. Now, 54 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: in the report, do you say that it's fourteen East Court? 55 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: East fifty Court was the street that von lived on 56 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: with his brother, and the address Sarah had given police 57 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: was just across the street from where Vaughan was staying. 58 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: What happened when you get to the house. When you 59 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: when you meet him the first time, Sarah says that 60 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: as she was getting out of the car, Vun ambushed her. 61 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: He put a knife to her neck, and he told her, 62 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: you're going to listen to me. Get in the fucking house. 63 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: What did he look like the guys? Sarah says that 64 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: because of Von's facial ticks, the way he ground his teeth, 65 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: she thought that he used to be addicted to crack, 66 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: used to be okay, So he put a knife to 67 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: your next and he said, you're gonna listen to me. 68 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: Sarah says Von took her to a back room in 69 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: the house. He made her hand over her cell phone 70 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: and car keys and told her that if she did 71 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: what he said, then he'd let her go. But she 72 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: didn't believe him because she saw duct tape and gloves 73 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: in the corner of the room, and he started asking 74 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: her questions. He was asking about your car, who knows 75 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: you're there? And he took your cell phone right so 76 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: you're saying that these are all science and NFL like 77 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: you were probably wind up dead. Okay. I used to 78 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: work in narcotics a lot, and I did undercover words. 79 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: I have the same sign as you do. When things 80 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: started going weird, I started going, okay, it's time to 81 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: get out of here. Sad's about and half behind. Sarah 82 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: says that Von then repeatedly raped her. He seemed to 83 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: be toying with her. He would stop and tell her 84 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: he was going to let her go, only to then 85 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: begin again. At one point, she tried to escape, but 86 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: he caught her and started beating her and tighter wrists 87 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: behind her back with a small rope any other weapons 88 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: against jubisides tie you off. After hours of holding Sarah 89 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: at knife point, choking her and raping her, Sarah says 90 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: that Von gagged her through a coat over her head 91 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: and drug her outside to her own car, some of 92 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: the staff and outside with him punching you and choking you. 93 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: This part of the story reminded me of something. It 94 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: reminded me of an incident that Vaughan's brother, Reginald, had 95 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: described police. Reginald said Vaughan had once called him at 96 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: work out of the blue. It was like like the 97 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: only time he's ever calling me over. And when he said, 98 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: you say, you know he brought a chap back to 99 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: the house and they got your food anything doing it, 100 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: I think it really told me is because of the 101 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: neighbor across the street. So now to be clear, Vaughan 102 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: just told his brother that he'd gotten into a fight 103 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: with a woman. He didn't tell his brother about any crimes. 104 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: And I don't know for certain that the incident Reginald 105 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: was describing has anything to do with Sarah, but I 106 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: wonder Regardless, Vaughan forced her into the car and started driving, 107 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: and she felt certain that he was taking her somewhere 108 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: to kill her. They got the t Brawway and he 109 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: got stuck at a red light and it's a pool hall. 110 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: We got on twenty Broadway and there was two old guys, 111 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: two old gentlemen that was standing outside. Sarah managed to 112 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: get the gag out of her mouth and she screamed 113 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: for help. They say what they heard was somebody in distress, 114 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: and they looked and they see a woman tied up 115 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: in the back feet of the car. The men snapped 116 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: into action. They were armed, so they pulled out their 117 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: guns and stopped Vaughan at the intersection. They helped to 118 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: call at the light, and they were trying to make 119 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: him get out the car so they can get the 120 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: young lady out, and one of the guys shot off 121 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: his pistol. One of the men fired a warning shot 122 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: and Vaughan ended up bailing out of the car and 123 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: running away. So basically, these people intervening for you shoot 124 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: a shot in the air. He takes off, run in 125 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: and the police show up. Sarah told police what had happened. 126 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: She gave them the address where she'd met Vaughan and 127 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: the fact that he'd said that his name was Darren. 128 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: And after she finished up with the police, she met 129 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: up with her boyfriend and it was actually while she 130 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: was talking to her boyfriend that she decided to go 131 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: to the hospital and get a rape kit because victim 132 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: went through several hours in an exam. They had someone 133 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: swabbing intimate parts of their body and taking pictures and 134 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: you know it's not done for fun. My name is 135 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: Dr Rachel Lovell. My area of expertise is around gender 136 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: based violence and I am a research assistant professor at 137 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: Case Western Reserve University. So a centual assault kit is 138 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: a set of items collected by healthcare professionals, primarily in 139 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: a hospital setting. The items can be swabs, combs, hair, photographs, 140 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: any number of things. Level says that about six of 141 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: sexual assault kits will have enough DNA to be analyzed 142 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: and submitted to a database. It has to meet a 143 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: certain number of criteria to be uploaded into CODIS that's 144 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: the us IS Federal DNA database. When a new sample 145 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: is uploaded to CODIS, it's compared against all the other 146 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: samples sun Vaughan's previous crimes. His DNA should have been 147 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: in the federal database. So if Gary police had analyzed 148 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: Sarah's rape kit and it had enough DNA, they should 149 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: have been able to link the kit to Vaughan. They 150 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: would have discovered he was a registered sex offender living 151 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: just across the street from the address that she had provided, 152 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: And they also would have found out that Vaughan had 153 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: been convicted for an almost identical crime to the one 154 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: Sarah described. Now, to be clear, we can't know for 155 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: certain what would have happened if police had tested Sarah's 156 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: sexual assault kit, but it seems quite plausible that they 157 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: would have been able to arrest Vaughn before he committed 158 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: any more murders. But that's not what happened. Did the 159 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: police ever follow up with you or take any steps 160 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: to to investigate this? Is there any reason you didn't 161 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: want to prosecute him for it? Well, heage you, right. 162 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: Sarah is saying there that she didn't press charges because 163 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: police told her quote, if he had paid you then 164 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: it wouldn't have been rape. Right. That's the exact same 165 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: logic that Vaughan had used to justify his rape in Texas, 166 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: And according to Sarah, that same logic was now coming 167 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: from the Gary Police Department. You can hear Detective forward 168 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: Si after he heard that, well, and like you said, 169 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, is that happened. I'm going to continue to 170 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: work on this, and i am going to check the 171 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: rape kit. It's actually a Gary Police department. I'm going 172 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: to get that. I'm gonna send it down to the 173 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: state Lab. So if there is any you know, DNA 174 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: evidence will be trying to put that together. Instead of 175 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: analyzing Sarah's sexual assault kit, police let it sit on 176 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: a shelf for over a year. Sarah's kit was part 177 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: of a backlog that's frustratingly common across the US. They 178 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: are thought to be hundreds of thousands of untested kits. 179 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: The exact numbers are hard to come by. This victim, 180 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: how a sexual assualt kit collected, and the idea that 181 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: nothing would be done from that, that that would just 182 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: be put on a shelf, I think is painful to 183 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: think about. Dr Lovell says that many people are shocked 184 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: when they find out how many sexual assault kits never 185 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: get tested. How can you have so many rape kits 186 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: that were not tested, Like, how could you not test those? 187 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: And that's a, you know, a very understandable, legitimate question. 188 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: But the problem is even worse than many realize. The 189 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: kit is a symptom of a much larger problem. Doctor 190 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: Level was part of a project called the Sexual Assault 191 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: Kit Initiative. The initiative was to analyze all the backlogged 192 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: rape kits in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, where Cleveland is located, 193 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: and Level and her team then look through all the 194 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: police records from when these kits were submitted. What we 195 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: really found through our research is that many things as 196 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: part of those investigations were not completed. It that includes 197 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: taking victims statements, offender statements, running someone's criminal history, you know, 198 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: all the sort of traditional investigative practices. Kids weren't tested 199 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: because lots of things weren't done on these cases. These 200 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: cases were close pretty quickly. I think one of the 201 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: most important things that people should understand is that the 202 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: investigations are often not what you see in TV. People 203 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: have a sense that law enforcement has the resources to 204 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: thoroughly follow up on all of these leads and test 205 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: whatever they want. And you know, do all these sorts 206 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: of things. You sexual assaults in particular, the departments are 207 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: under resource, they're not followed up on. And this is 208 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: what happens when you don't follow up on them, sexual 209 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: offenders continue to offend. I was curious what had led 210 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,119 Speaker 1: Cleveland to analyze all the rape kids in its backlog. 211 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: Why did they decide to go test their untested kids, 212 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: Like many things came out of something really bad. On 213 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: Halloween in two thousand and nine, they found the bodies 214 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: of eleven decomposing women in the house of this man 215 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: named Anthony soul so Well was under investigation by Cleveland 216 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: police for rape. In two thousand and nine, so Well 217 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: killed eleven women and buried them in and around his 218 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: Imperial Avenue home. Neighbors remembered that stench of rotting flesh 219 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,719 Speaker 1: so wrongly attributed to raise sausage store next door. When 220 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: they were sort of following up on these women's bodies, 221 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: they identified that several reports had been made from women 222 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: who were able to escape from Anthony Sowell and said 223 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: that he had raped them and that they had taken 224 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: him back to this house, and one of these women, 225 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: maybe more, had a sexual salt kit collected that wasn't 226 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: tested at the time. Ohio saw a backlog of thousands 227 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: of untested rape kits. The plain Dealer reported that one 228 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: from two thousand nine was later linked to so well, 229 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: but by then he had killed at least four or more. 230 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: You never know sort of the counterfactual, So what had 231 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: happened had they done that? However, if those cases had 232 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: been followed up on, you know, there's a strong likelihood 233 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: that he might not have been able to murder the 234 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: subsequent victims. You know, the story I'm working on right 235 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: now actually has a lot of eerie similarities. People reporting 236 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: it to police, reporting the house, and you know it 237 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: wasn't followed up on and led to more sexual assaults 238 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: and murders. I don't know, it's really hard looking from 239 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: the outside kind of understanding how this stuff can happen, 240 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: or how someone can kind of throw so many obvious 241 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: red flags that don't seem to get caught. You know, 242 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: the departments are under resource, they're under reported, they're not 243 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: followed up on, and when you don't solve those crimes, 244 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: they continue to go on. And commit sexual assaults as 245 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: well as other crimes. The Sexual Assault CAN initiative is 246 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: sort of pulling off a band aid and showing actually, 247 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: there's much worse under here than what we thought, and 248 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: really trying to transform the way we think about sexual 249 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: assault and how to investigate it. I asked Dr Lovell 250 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: how we ended up with this rape kit backlog in 251 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: the first place. You have to start with the fact 252 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,239 Speaker 1: that DNA testing wasn't really available until the late nineties, 253 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: but earlier on police did collect biological samples, not for 254 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: DNA testing but for blood typing. When DNA testing did 255 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: become available, it was expensive, it was very cost prohibitive, 256 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: so police departments only really tested kits where there was 257 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: a very strong likelihood that it was going to go 258 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: to prosecution and the testing could take sometimes years to 259 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: get the DNA evidence back. So by and large, most 260 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: jurisdictions may have started to test the kids going forward 261 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: when it became cheaper, or primarily those where the victim 262 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: wanted to prosecute and the offender was a stranger. That's 263 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: the only kids that they were really testing. They never 264 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: really thought about going back to the old ones. To 265 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: be fair, they didn't know what was going to be 266 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: in there. They didn't know how many would have hits. 267 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: Would it be worth it to test these kids? And 268 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: there was a lot of conversation about should we only 269 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: test the stranger ones or the non stranger ones, because 270 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: the idea is that DNA will help you identify someone, 271 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: But if you already know who raped you, what's the 272 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: point of testing. What they didn't foresee from that is 273 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: that kids can hit to each other. So here's one 274 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: person who might have sexually assaulted for acquaintances, and although 275 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: each person had their own police report, the kids have 276 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: now linked them together. We also have a strong research 277 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: to show that because offenders often sexually assault strangers and 278 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: non strangers, one person's known offender is somebody else's unknown offender. 279 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: So when the kids hit to each other, you now 280 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: have a name suspect. They didn't really have a larger 281 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: sense either about how many of these kids would be 282 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: hitting to each other. Here's these seasoned law enforcement officers 283 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: and I would be sitting in meetings and they would be, 284 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: you know, just shocked at the number of rapes that 285 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: this person had been connected to and how different the 286 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: rapes were in terms of victim preference and age and 287 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: gender and raise and all these sorts of things. They're like, 288 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: how did we never would have put these together had 289 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: it not been for DNA because they're so different? Was 290 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: this a shock to researchers as well? I think the 291 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: number was a little shocking when you started to pull 292 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: the ball together. I mean, in Kyoga County, a fourth 293 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: of these cases are linked to known serial sex offenders, 294 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: so they know that they're connected to some other sex 295 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: crime or they're connected to another rape kit. Almost a 296 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: quarter of the kids that were analyzed contained a DNA 297 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: sample that matched the sample in another kit or a 298 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: sample from a noon sex offender. Can we say then 299 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: that of these offenses are serial offenses or does that 300 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: work for some reason? I think you can extrapolate to that. 301 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: There's also researchers from the Detroit Sacchi Project about a 302 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: third of their's were connected to more than one sexual assault, 303 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: so we estimated at being at and then in terms 304 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: of absolute numbers, how many are we talking about with? 305 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: So as of December, there was about eight hundred and 306 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: fifty known serial sex offenders. And again that that's the 307 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: ones you know. Don't forget though, that sexual assault is 308 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: the most underreported violent crime and still eight hundred and 309 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: fifty known people who are connected to some other rape. Yeah. 310 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: It's it's kind of like if you compared it to 311 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: like murder something like that, right, if you thought about 312 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: eight hundred serial killers active in this county, that that 313 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: would sound completely insane. Uh, And it does sound completely 314 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: insane with serial rape to right, right, you know, to 315 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: what extent has this actually led to, you know, opening 316 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: back up investigations or convictions? So u Kyoge County started 317 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: completely new investigations for seven thousand rape kits from nineteen 318 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: three through two thousand and eleven UM. They just finished 319 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: testing and investigating all of those. Over eight hundred defendants 320 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: have been indicted. It shows that you can get convictions 321 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 1: from old sexual assault cases when there are sufficient resources 322 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: for victims in terms of victim advocacy and victim support, 323 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 1: and there's sufficient um political will to make sure that 324 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: these cases are investigated and prosecuted. Cuyahoga Counties investigation into 325 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: their rape kit backlog has been an enormous success, in 326 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: part because they had buy in at the county, state, 327 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 1: and national level after they'd begun addressing the problem at 328 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: the county level. They got federal funding from the Sexual 329 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: Assault Kit Initiative, a national initiative to end the rape 330 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: kit backlog, which launched in tw Cayuga County has the 331 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: most number of convictions relative to the number of kids, 332 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 1: and there's several reasons for that. Most notably is that 333 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: Calga County is one of the first ones to do this, 334 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: so it's an early adopter jurisdiction is before the federal 335 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: money was available to do this, so they kind of 336 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: got a head start. And the other head start that 337 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: they got was that the state Crime Lab paid for 338 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: the testing of all the kids, so they didn't have 339 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: to use resources to pay for the testing, but instead 340 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: put those resources towards investigation and prosecution. So they really 341 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: got a large number of staff and personnel. So they've 342 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: seen a very large number. Over eight hundred defendants have 343 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: now been indicted. Do you know how many of those 344 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: eight hundred were kind of already in prison for something else? 345 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: For sure, some of them were in prison for long 346 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: periods of time, But for all indicted defendants, we looked 347 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: at their criminal histories and the median amount of time 348 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: that they had been in cars rated that could be 349 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: jail or prison was around six months. Some of them, 350 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, were convicted of murder and had life sentences, 351 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: but overall they weren't incarcerated for long periods of time. Yeah. 352 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: I was speaking to another researcher about how you assess 353 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: the threat of recidivism given that so many of these 354 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: crimes go unreported, so that kind of makes it hard 355 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: to figure out how much people are reoffending. Do you 356 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: have a sense of how the data from rape kits 357 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: is changing, or or should change the way we think 358 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: about reoffending. Yeah. I think that's a great question, and 359 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: in fact, sachy data the connection is made when the 360 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: victim reports and there's DNA collected, not at the time 361 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: of conviction, so you have a much more representative sample 362 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: of sexual assaults. I think the Sexual Thought Kit initiative 363 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: is telling us that serial offending is much more common 364 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: than previously assumed, because now we're getting a less biased 365 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: view of what that actually looks like, and that in fact, 366 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: law enforcement should start with the assumption that that they've 367 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: done this before. I guess I was just shocked at 368 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: kind of what people can do and how light that 369 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: punishment seemed to me as someone not familiar with this stuff. Yeah, 370 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: I think one of the sort of larger existential problems 371 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: with this is that individuals have to come back to 372 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: the community, right most of them. The problem is, oftentimes 373 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: the offenders will come out of prison worse than what 374 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: they went in, and there's no good treatment for sexual 375 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: offenders adult ones. There is some stuff around juveniles, but 376 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: for adult male sex offenders, the research is pretty consistent 377 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: that treatment is not very effective. What are we supposed 378 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: to do when these individuals are out? I don't have 379 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: the answer to that, but I think it's an important 380 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: conversation to have. I know that. For example, in Washington State, 381 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: there's this place called sex Offender Island. The first time 382 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: I heard someone talked about, I was like, sex Offender Island. 383 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: That sounds like a place I certainly don't want to go, 384 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: you know, like that sounds terrible, and it's a it's 385 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: a place where they have civilly committed individuals who are 386 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: the worst of the worst sexual offenders, and so this 387 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: is kind of like they've served their sentence. You can't 388 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: legally keep them in prison, but you can involuntarily commit 389 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: them kind of like a psychiatric condition. But it's essentially 390 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: an extra judicial prison or something. Yes, And sometimes some 391 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: offenders say, you know, put me in this because I 392 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: will continue to offend. And sometimes they're just civilly committed 393 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: by saying, you know, we've deemed you as being too dangerous. 394 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that's the right answer, but you know, 395 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: I think these are conversations that should also be had 396 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: as well, like what do we do with individuals who 397 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,479 Speaker 1: may have a hard time being reformed and they are 398 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: still a danger to society. I don't want myself for 399 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: my children to live next to that person. But at 400 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: the same time, that person has served their debt to society, 401 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: at least according to the core. Yeah, it seems to 402 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: me that like our kind of intuitions about these crimes 403 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: don't match up with the laws and the sentences. But 404 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: then it seems to me from your research that also 405 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: the reality of the crimes doesn't match up with our 406 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: intuition either, you know. So I don't know, just everything 407 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: is kind of messed up right now, I know, I know, Yeah, 408 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: I have no read you know, some of the other 409 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: things I could provide recommendations, I don't know what to do. 410 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: I think it's those are sort of philosophical questions, But 411 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: I think there is a larger story about, now what 412 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: how do we as a society handle violent sexual predators. 413 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: Dr Lovell's research shows that Sarah's story with a rape 414 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: kit that went unanalyzed, in a rap ape that went uninvestigated, 415 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: that story is far from unique to Gary. It's part 416 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: of a bigger problem occurring all across the country. But 417 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: when Marvin Clinton says that he heard about Sarah's story 418 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: and how the police hadn't followed up on the information 419 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: she'd given them were analyzed her rape kit, it didn't 420 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: shock him. I was surprised at all. They may have 421 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: feel like she was the words this person, so she 422 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: just stopped and the bell with them. It seems like, again, 423 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: if they had just taken her seriously, she could have 424 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: taken them to the house. They would have seen that 425 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: this guy was a registered sex offender who had almost 426 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: killed a woman in Texas, and they could have stopped 427 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 1: all of this from happening. Exactly. Yeah, that's so fu exactly, 428 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: But they would have took up seriously instead of making 429 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: her feel that her life was worth nothing, like we're 430 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: not noting what you're doing. We might travel had judging 431 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: on you, but we just want to know what's happened 432 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: and let her know that her life missed something. Clinton 433 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: said that Sarah's story reminded him of his own experience. 434 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: It kind of go inside with each other. After Von's arrest, 435 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: Marvin says he learned police had lost the phone records 436 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: he provided them. They looked through the foul they didn't 437 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: have it, So we don't know what the other detective 438 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: deal with it, if you just threw it away or 439 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. But you told them this 440 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: whole story about how you had gotten the records and 441 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: called and spoken to this woman, and that a man 442 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: had called exactly that I had told him all the 443 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: novels did I called. I mean, it feels like at 444 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: least once you had told them that he had her 445 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: cell phone, you know that they should have been able 446 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: to track down where he was or something exactly. It 447 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: seems from both Marvin and Sariah's stories the police ignored 448 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: crucial leads early in and these errors may have left 449 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: Vaughn free to commit more murders. Personally, I think if 450 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: police had investigated either of these leads thoroughly, they could 451 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: have caught and arrested Vaughn and Africa Hardy and many 452 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: of the later victims would be alive today. But could 453 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: Vaughan have been stopped even earlier? He inclaimed he had 454 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: been doing this for twenty some years. If that's a 455 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: true analysis, death should have been more than seven victims. 456 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: Do you wonder if there are other victims out there? 457 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: We have a lot of missing females out here, some 458 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: of them uh center cold cases, but I mean they've 459 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: been missing for years. To think back when he said 460 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: he'd been doing it for twenty years, we got some 461 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: people that have been missing almost that long now, and 462 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: then just a coincidence that he said he'd been doing 463 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: it all this time and we got all these people 464 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: still missing. Possible or could actually be something to it 465 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: that we don't know. We can only go about what 466 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: he said now. They dismissed some of the ideas that 467 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: he had that they found not to be true, but 468 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: we don't know what else and what ain't see. There 469 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: were some stuff that he said that they looked into 470 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: and they weren't sure if it was true. Yeah, yeah, 471 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: they had their doubts about it. I mean even detective 472 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: Board say he had been looking at couple of cases 473 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: that he was trying to link to their van, but 474 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: he just had been able to link him. I know 475 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: of three cases man him was talking about, but he 476 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: found victims that were angle. His probably as was to 477 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: try to link the cases to damn man right now, 478 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: he just ain't been able to do that. But if 479 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: they do link some of all cases to him, I 480 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised. Could Vaughan have been stopped even earlier 481 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: before any of these crimes? Was Von responsible for the 482 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: murders the algorithm had detected? And could police have caught 483 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: Vaughan if they had heated hard Groves warnings? How many 484 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: change gears here and switch the focus away from von 485 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: crimes and back towards hard Groves algorithm. I reached back 486 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: out to Hargrove to let him know what I found 487 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: out about Von and Von's confessions. Were you able to 488 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: get any audio out of the Gary police farm? You did? 489 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: Next time? On algorithm? You know I have tried over cases, um, 490 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: there are some cases that stick in your mind, and 491 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: this was a case that stuck in my mind because 492 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 1: number one, we had a we had a good defense 493 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: to the forensic evidence. If you can call it friends 494 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: of evidence, and his defense was that he had been 495 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: dealing drugs and that he owed the person he was 496 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: dealing with a lot of money. That's one of the 497 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: critical needs for law enforcement. There needs to be a national, 498 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: updated data set for homicide. All right is seven three pm. 499 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: I just checked my mail. I was looking for wedding 500 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: invitation and instead I found a piece of mail from 501 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: Darren Fond. I had written to him a couple of 502 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: months ago seeing if he had any interest in talking. 503 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: Open this up. Never gotten a piece of mail from 504 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: a serial killer before. This episode was written and produced 505 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,719 Speaker 1: by me ben Key. Brick Algorithm is executive produced by 506 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, Donald Albright and Matt Frederick. Production assistants in 507 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: mixing by Eric Quintana. The music is by Makeup and 508 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: Vanity Set and Blue Dot Sessions. Thanks to Christina Dana, 509 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: Miranda Hawkins, Jamie Albright, Rema l k Ali, Trevor Young, 510 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: and Josh Thane for their help and notes. Next week 511 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna have a bonus episode where we address some 512 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: listener questions. If you have any questions, if you have 513 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: any tips about the investigation, really anything at all, please 514 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: call and leave a voicemail at a D eight five 515 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: zero one three zero nine. That's a D eight five 516 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: zero one three zero nine, or reach out to me 517 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: on Twitter. I'm at Ben Underscore keybrick kue b R 518 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: I c H. Would really love to hear from any 519 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: of you, even if it's just general thoughts about the show. 520 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: We're doing that to both address your questions and also 521 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: we've gotten some interesting tips already that we want to 522 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: look into, so we just need a little extra time 523 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: to research and then work on the next episode. Thanks.