WEBVTT - J Dilla: Dan Charnas on the Life and Legacy of Jay Dee 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.276 Pushkin. Hey everyone, it's justin Richmond. Today on the show, 0:00:23.396 --> 0:00:27.876 we're talking to Dan Charnis. Dan Charnis is many things. 0:00:28.196 --> 0:00:33.316 He's an author, hip hop journalist, professor, showrunner, former A 0:00:33.396 --> 0:00:36.876 and R person for Deaf American, and also a longtime 0:00:36.916 --> 0:00:40.396 friend of Rick Rubens, with a handful of books under 0:00:40.436 --> 0:00:44.236 his belt and awards like the Pulitzer Fellowship for Arts Journalism. 0:00:44.316 --> 0:00:47.596 His latest book, Dilla Time, the Life and afterlife of 0:00:47.676 --> 0:00:51.116 Jay Dilla, the hip hop producer who reinvented rhythm, is 0:00:51.156 --> 0:00:55.076 the product of four years of exhaustive research in nearly 0:00:55.156 --> 0:00:59.436 two hundred interviews. On today's episode, Rick Rubin speaks with 0:00:59.516 --> 0:01:01.796 Dan Charnis about how the roots of his new book 0:01:02.116 --> 0:01:04.076 go all the way back to when they were working together, 0:01:04.436 --> 0:01:07.036 and a trip he took to Detroit with rapper Chino 0:01:07.116 --> 0:01:09.916 Excel to work with the producer are then known as 0:01:10.356 --> 0:01:14.036 j D. Rick and Charnis also reminisce about their earliest 0:01:14.116 --> 0:01:17.236 memories together, and Charnis shares what it was like meeting 0:01:17.316 --> 0:01:23.756 Rick's mother, Missus Ruben, for the first time. This is 0:01:23.876 --> 0:01:27.716 broken record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. 0:01:28.516 --> 0:01:31.156 Here's Rick Rubin and Dan Charnis on the genius of 0:01:31.276 --> 0:01:33.916 Jay Dillah. But first we'll hear a bit of background 0:01:33.956 --> 0:01:37.076 on Dan's career and relationship with Rick, all leading up 0:01:37.276 --> 0:01:41.356 to his new book. Do you remember how we actually met? 0:01:41.476 --> 0:01:44.316 First time we met, I do tell me. I got 0:01:44.316 --> 0:01:46.916 a phone call. I was sitting in the conference room 0:01:46.916 --> 0:01:50.716 at Profile Records, getting ready to call my panel of 0:01:51.636 --> 0:01:56.876 rap record retailers when the receptionists said, Rick's on the phone, 0:01:57.196 --> 0:02:00.796 and I just knew. Of all the ricks, I knew. 0:02:00.876 --> 0:02:05.036 I just had a premonition it was you, even though 0:02:05.036 --> 0:02:08.196 we had never met, because I had put it in 0:02:08.316 --> 0:02:12.036 my mind for the last I don't know two months 0:02:13.556 --> 0:02:16.676 that I was going to meet you had not told anybody. 0:02:16.676 --> 0:02:18.556 I had not told Bill Stephanie, who I guess is 0:02:18.596 --> 0:02:21.876 the person who connected us. I picked up the phone 0:02:21.876 --> 0:02:25.076 and there you were, and you were looking for somebody 0:02:25.116 --> 0:02:28.276 to either help you out with a deaf American in 0:02:28.356 --> 0:02:32.116 terms of like hip hop stuff, or Warner Brothers as well. 0:02:32.156 --> 0:02:34.036 So that's how we met. You were in New York 0:02:34.716 --> 0:02:40.756 for the Black Crow's Gold album release party, and we 0:02:41.836 --> 0:02:43.996 hung out. It was very much like I went to 0:02:44.036 --> 0:02:46.196 the Union Square coffee house to meet you for the 0:02:46.236 --> 0:02:50.316 first time, very nervous because obviously it's one of my 0:02:50.396 --> 0:02:53.596 musical heroes I'm meeting, But very quickly you made me 0:02:53.676 --> 0:02:57.516 super comfortable. You were staying top two floors of two 0:02:57.596 --> 0:03:00.116 Night eight Elizabeth Street, and I went there to meet 0:03:00.116 --> 0:03:02.036 you because we were just going to like go record shopping. 0:03:02.036 --> 0:03:04.676 We're just gonna do something fun, and you dropped the 0:03:04.756 --> 0:03:08.516 keys out of the window down to Elizabeth Street, and 0:03:08.596 --> 0:03:10.836 that's that's how we met. Yet I didn't want a 0:03:10.876 --> 0:03:13.236 buzzer because they didn't want anybody to visit, so it 0:03:13.316 --> 0:03:15.716 was the only time, like if I knew that someone 0:03:15.836 --> 0:03:18.316 was coming, I think maybe even the keys would go 0:03:18.316 --> 0:03:20.756 into a sock because it was a long distance down 0:03:20.796 --> 0:03:23.316 and then throw the keys out the window, and then 0:03:23.516 --> 0:03:26.036 that's how we would That was fun. Yeah, you were 0:03:26.036 --> 0:03:28.716 one of the very few people who ever visited there, 0:03:28.756 --> 0:03:31.956 just because I like to be alone. And it was 0:03:32.116 --> 0:03:34.516 at the time abandoned, not abandoned, but you know, def 0:03:34.556 --> 0:03:37.116 JAM had left. They had moved their offices around the 0:03:37.156 --> 0:03:40.756 corner to the six hundred block of Broadway. It was 0:03:40.836 --> 0:03:43.316 just your place on the top two floors, and it 0:03:43.356 --> 0:03:45.716 was spick and span, you know, I think there were 0:03:45.716 --> 0:03:48.196 the remnants of a recording studio that never quite got 0:03:48.196 --> 0:03:51.596 built in the basement. Yes, and it was this little 0:03:51.716 --> 0:03:58.396 interesting window between your def jam years and the American 0:03:58.716 --> 0:04:03.676 years where things were kind of in flux, very interesting. 0:04:03.836 --> 0:04:08.756 I spent three years building that place, and I think 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:12.076 within in a month of it being finished, I moved 0:04:12.116 --> 0:04:15.476 to California, So I never really lived there. But when 0:04:15.476 --> 0:04:17.996 I was living in California, if I did come to 0:04:18.036 --> 0:04:20.756 New York, I would stay there. And that was probably 0:04:20.796 --> 0:04:23.236 the last time I ever stayed there because even after that, 0:04:23.276 --> 0:04:26.956 while I continued owning it, it just felt like, because 0:04:27.036 --> 0:04:30.996 nobody lived there for so long, it lacked a spirit. 0:04:31.116 --> 0:04:33.316 When he came into it, it didn't fuel right, So 0:04:33.356 --> 0:04:36.316 I started staying in hotels. I remember that. The two 0:04:36.356 --> 0:04:39.316 things I want to share about that era. The first 0:04:39.316 --> 0:04:42.156 thing is that weekend where you were in New York. 0:04:42.956 --> 0:04:45.396 We went to Tower Records together when there was such 0:04:45.396 --> 0:04:49.076 a thing, and you said to me, you buy me 0:04:49.116 --> 0:04:51.676 a bunch of CDs of stuff that you like, and 0:04:51.836 --> 0:04:54.436 I'll buy you a bunch of CDs stuff that I like. 0:04:55.036 --> 0:04:58.916 And we went back to Elizabeth Street and we listened, 0:04:59.316 --> 0:05:04.836 and your purchases were audio too, Wow, and sir, mix 0:05:04.876 --> 0:05:08.916 a lot and mine were you know, the raft of 0:05:09.156 --> 0:05:11.476 Golden age stuff that was coming out then the big 0:05:11.836 --> 0:05:17.156 Daddy Kane Bismarcki EPMD. And I didn't really like the 0:05:17.196 --> 0:05:20.076 stuff that you had bought, and you weren't really interested 0:05:20.076 --> 0:05:23.716 in the stuff that I bought. But for whatever reason, 0:05:24.476 --> 0:05:29.596 that was like okay, like absolutely, you actually saw that 0:05:29.676 --> 0:05:33.036 I had a piece right that was independent of your piece. 0:05:33.436 --> 0:05:35.556 And I never forgot that. I never forgot like, oh, 0:05:35.596 --> 0:05:37.476 this is how you can be, I mean even just 0:05:37.596 --> 0:05:40.316 in future situations, in business situations. This is how you 0:05:40.356 --> 0:05:42.796 can be as a creative. This is how you can 0:05:42.836 --> 0:05:46.436 be as a manager. You don't have to know or 0:05:46.516 --> 0:05:49.956 master or even like the whole thing, but you can 0:05:49.996 --> 0:05:53.356 have people around you that complete that part of it. 0:05:53.756 --> 0:05:56.676 So that was great. And then, of course when I 0:05:56.716 --> 0:06:00.476 started working for you in nineteen ninety one, the thing 0:06:00.516 --> 0:06:03.116 that I remember the most of the errands, and one 0:06:03.116 --> 0:06:07.076 of the errands was to go back to Elizabeth Street 0:06:07.276 --> 0:06:10.756 and get all the belongings of a paramour of yours 0:06:10.916 --> 0:06:13.476 and put him in a box and send them. And 0:06:13.516 --> 0:06:15.436 then of course my favorite one was going out to 0:06:15.556 --> 0:06:19.476 Long Beach to the garage to dig out a whole 0:06:19.476 --> 0:06:23.116 bunch of master tapes and other things from my parents' house. Yes, 0:06:23.436 --> 0:06:28.196 Linda and Mickey, Yes, yes, and your mother, Linda Ruben, 0:06:28.516 --> 0:06:32.116 she says to me. As I walk in, she says, um, 0:06:32.236 --> 0:06:35.756 can I get you anything? And I'm trying to be polite, 0:06:35.756 --> 0:06:37.876 I say, no, mus Ruben, I'm fine. What do you mean? 0:06:37.916 --> 0:06:39.716 You fine? How could you be fine? How could you 0:06:39.796 --> 0:06:45.436 possibly be fine? That's I loved her from that moment on. Yeah, yeah, 0:06:45.476 --> 0:06:48.396 that's that's that's Linda Ruben. And of course, and I 0:06:48.436 --> 0:06:50.156 don't know if any of this is usable for you. 0:06:50.316 --> 0:06:52.916 I will say that your father, like he reminded me, 0:06:53.196 --> 0:06:55.716 you know so much of you? He says, did Ricky 0:06:55.756 --> 0:07:01.516 ever tell you about his magic shows? The best? The best? 0:07:01.596 --> 0:07:05.396 And that was a Rick Rubin, uh you know phrase 0:07:05.516 --> 0:07:07.716 that I remember, so yeah, it might have been. It 0:07:07.756 --> 0:07:11.236 might have been a Mickey Ruben phrase that I adopted. Yes, indeed, 0:07:11.476 --> 0:07:14.716 now I note from that window we had a good 0:07:14.796 --> 0:07:18.276 run together, and I remember it fondly, and I want 0:07:18.276 --> 0:07:21.316 to ask about posts to our run. Tell me about 0:07:21.356 --> 0:07:24.156 your life starting. I remember you really getting into yoga. 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:28.276 It feels like as as we made our conscious uncompiling. 0:07:29.356 --> 0:07:35.836 Yea where you were consciously uncoupling from the first iteration 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:41.196 of American recordings. You were moving from Warner Brothers to Sony. Yeah, 0:07:41.316 --> 0:07:44.316 and I had been working on a project with a 0:07:44.436 --> 0:07:48.516 rapper MC named Chino Excel, who very much made a 0:07:48.516 --> 0:07:50.756 lot of friends at Warner Brothers. So the idea was 0:07:50.796 --> 0:07:53.956 that I would stay with Warner Brothers, and you tried, 0:07:54.156 --> 0:07:58.116 you know, to help that situation happen. Actually, thank you 0:07:58.196 --> 0:08:00.316 very much. So you moved into sort of the system 0:08:00.356 --> 0:08:02.956 of a down era, the Sony American era. And then 0:08:03.036 --> 0:08:05.556 I remained with Warner Brothers and Chino for a little 0:08:05.556 --> 0:08:10.796 bit until Forrest Whittaker hired me to run his record 0:08:10.796 --> 0:08:15.676 company through Sony. And that was about a year two years, 0:08:15.836 --> 0:08:19.716 and I was already a certified yoga teacher. It had 0:08:19.836 --> 0:08:22.396 basically saved my life. While I was working for you, 0:08:22.956 --> 0:08:25.796 I was introduced to that entire world value. So let's 0:08:25.796 --> 0:08:28.956 just say that while I was with Forrest, I decided 0:08:28.996 --> 0:08:33.116 to start writing again. I hadn't written professionally since I 0:08:33.116 --> 0:08:35.076 had been writing for the Source around the time that 0:08:35.116 --> 0:08:39.476 I joined Deaf American, so I decided to start writing 0:08:39.636 --> 0:08:42.116 for the screen. And what I ended up doing after 0:08:42.156 --> 0:08:46.036 I left Forest was writing comedy for MTV and b 0:08:46.196 --> 0:08:48.756 Et I wrote a season of The Lyricist Lounge Show. 0:08:49.236 --> 0:08:52.716 I wrote for a season of Comic View, and eventually 0:08:52.756 --> 0:08:55.796 it led me to decide that, Okay, I am going 0:08:55.836 --> 0:08:58.716 to go back to New York and see if I 0:08:58.756 --> 0:09:01.436 can get myself into journalism school. Like just shot up 0:09:01.476 --> 0:09:04.596 my foundation again. I moved to California in ninety one, 0:09:05.116 --> 0:09:07.196 moved back to New York in two thousand and four, 0:09:07.756 --> 0:09:11.676 got accepted to the Columbia School of Journalism. I spent 0:09:11.756 --> 0:09:15.276 two years there. I did my master's project in the 0:09:15.316 --> 0:09:19.116 West Bank. My beat. Every person who is in that 0:09:19.156 --> 0:09:21.396 program gets a little beat in the city. So my 0:09:21.436 --> 0:09:26.236 beat was Hunt's point in the Bronx. So literally, I'm 0:09:26.276 --> 0:09:29.996 pounding the pavement. I'm a journalist again. Wow. But the 0:09:30.476 --> 0:09:37.716 crowning course of that program was a course called book writing, 0:09:38.356 --> 0:09:43.956 which is taught by a really impressive and formidable writer 0:09:44.076 --> 0:09:47.156 for the New York Times named Sam Friedman, and he 0:09:47.196 --> 0:09:50.636 only accepted about twenty five students a year. In this 0:09:50.836 --> 0:09:53.556 you have to apply to get into the class, give 0:09:53.596 --> 0:09:57.956 to propose a book. So this book I proposed, which 0:09:57.996 --> 0:10:01.436 became the big payback, was called Beats rhymes in cash 0:10:01.476 --> 0:10:04.236 and it was the history of the business side of 0:10:04.276 --> 0:10:08.076 hip hop, because there were books that were coming out 0:10:08.156 --> 0:10:12.236 about hip hop that were very artists and music centric, 0:10:12.476 --> 0:10:15.156 but they were missing the key part of it for me, 0:10:15.596 --> 0:10:19.236 which was how did this thing get big? Right? Rundy 0:10:19.276 --> 0:10:23.396 MC didn't just appear and you know they were suddenly 0:10:23.436 --> 0:10:26.876 on MTV. People had to fight tooth and nail to 0:10:26.876 --> 0:10:30.556 get them into record stores, on radio stations, onto MTV. 0:10:30.676 --> 0:10:33.916 How did that part happen? The main characters in this 0:10:33.956 --> 0:10:39.476 book were going to be the business people, and that proposal, 0:10:39.636 --> 0:10:43.276 that book proposal was started in Sam Friedman's class. It 0:10:43.356 --> 0:10:46.196 was like, you know all those movies you see, the 0:10:46.236 --> 0:10:48.836 martial arts movies like kill Bill, you know the cruel 0:10:48.876 --> 0:10:52.356 tutelage of Pie May. I mean. NPR came to tape 0:10:52.356 --> 0:10:54.476 one of our classes, and I believe on NPR there 0:10:54.516 --> 0:10:59.276 is still a recording of Freedman telling me about something 0:10:59.276 --> 0:11:02.836 that I had written. I was defending it and he said, Dan, 0:11:03.356 --> 0:11:06.356 as they say on the basketball court, stopped bringing that week. 0:11:06.596 --> 0:11:12.036 Wow man. Wow. So that was the beginning for me 0:11:12.396 --> 0:11:17.036 of a new foundation in writing and a new life, 0:11:17.076 --> 0:11:21.476 but also spiritually a way to wrap up a career 0:11:22.076 --> 0:11:24.996 in the music business that I felt very ambivalent about. 0:11:25.236 --> 0:11:28.316 I think the last time I saw you, I was 0:11:28.316 --> 0:11:30.436 doing interviews for The Big Payback, and I think I 0:11:30.436 --> 0:11:33.676 said something. I apologized, like, I apologize for not being 0:11:33.716 --> 0:11:35.836 a good enough A and R person, And I know 0:11:35.876 --> 0:11:38.756 that's not how you think about things at all. It 0:11:38.876 --> 0:11:43.516 just came out of me, the shame of not having 0:11:43.556 --> 0:11:48.156 signed Coolio when I had the child, like Matt, you know, 0:11:48.796 --> 0:11:52.036 and I'm since then, I'm much kinder to myself. But 0:11:52.276 --> 0:11:56.156 I feel like my aunt, my mother's sister. She was 0:11:56.196 --> 0:11:59.356 the like associate dean of the UCLA Film School while 0:11:59.396 --> 0:12:02.196 I was in California, actually, and I remember going out 0:12:02.196 --> 0:12:05.836 to dinner with her and sharing that ambivalence, and she said, 0:12:06.276 --> 0:12:09.996 life gathers beautiful. There is nothing that I have done 0:12:10.956 --> 0:12:13.516 that I haven't somehow gathered into the next thing that 0:12:13.636 --> 0:12:15.956 I am doing. And then also, you know, it's a 0:12:16.036 --> 0:12:20.436 very sort of Rubenesque holistic way of looking at life. 0:12:20.476 --> 0:12:25.516 So that's kind of how I got into this second 0:12:25.996 --> 0:12:29.476 career of mine. Wow, you go to Columbia, you become 0:12:29.516 --> 0:12:32.956 a book writer, And how long was the process from 0:12:32.996 --> 0:12:36.396 starting the class deciding it's going to be this book 0:12:36.436 --> 0:12:38.716 that turns into the big payback. How long was it 0:12:38.756 --> 0:12:41.556 before the big payback actually came to fruition? Oh wow. 0:12:41.676 --> 0:12:44.516 I graduated in two thousand and seven. What helped me 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:47.876 was I got a Pulitzer Arts Fellowship, so that provided 0:12:47.876 --> 0:12:49.796 a little bit of funding. I sold the book, so 0:12:49.836 --> 0:12:51.916 I would say about three to four years to sort 0:12:51.956 --> 0:12:54.076 of finish that book. And my son was born like 0:12:54.116 --> 0:12:55.676 in the middle of it. I got married in the 0:12:55.676 --> 0:12:58.636 middle of it. But it came out finally in December 0:12:58.756 --> 0:13:01.356 of twenty ten, and it was It was a six 0:13:01.516 --> 0:13:07.316 hundred and sixty pages, forty years the comprehensive telling of 0:13:07.596 --> 0:13:11.116 our story right the music business side of hip hop. 0:13:11.156 --> 0:13:14.516 I remember it seemed very well received at the time. 0:13:14.916 --> 0:13:17.396 I think it was it was a thrill to be 0:13:17.796 --> 0:13:21.076 on you know, NPR and to do Terry Gross and 0:13:21.236 --> 0:13:24.916 to be able to talk about something like this on 0:13:24.956 --> 0:13:27.636 a large stage. I mean, it's still taught in schools. 0:13:27.916 --> 0:13:30.836 But what excites me about it are the characters within it. 0:13:30.916 --> 0:13:33.836 You Know, we get to meet Sylvia Robinson, we meet Russell, 0:13:33.916 --> 0:13:36.796 we meet you, we meet Lee or you know, we 0:13:36.876 --> 0:13:39.556 see how folks who don't even like hip hop end 0:13:39.636 --> 0:13:43.116 up doing these amazing things that completely save it. That 0:13:43.156 --> 0:13:45.596 to me is was the fun part to be able 0:13:45.596 --> 0:13:48.716 to not just introduce people to the lives of the 0:13:48.756 --> 0:13:51.436 folks that they did know, but also you know, hey, 0:13:51.476 --> 0:13:54.716 here's what Keith Nafterly did at this FM radio station 0:13:54.756 --> 0:13:59.836 in San Francisco that completely changed American radio right. American 0:13:59.916 --> 0:14:05.396 radio was segregated, literally racially segregated almost fully before this 0:14:05.436 --> 0:14:08.596 guy came along and blew it all open. Yeah. And 0:14:08.676 --> 0:14:12.916 you've hot hip hop related classes at NYU. Yeah, And 0:14:12.956 --> 0:14:15.836 that's another sort of homecoming for me in some respect. 0:14:15.956 --> 0:14:18.956 The book again put me in position to become full 0:14:18.956 --> 0:14:22.556 time faculty at TISH. Wow. So I have been full 0:14:22.556 --> 0:14:25.436 time faculty at TISH at what is called the Clive 0:14:25.556 --> 0:14:28.876 Davis Institute of Recorded Music, which I believe is the 0:14:28.916 --> 0:14:31.476 first school of its kind, you know, teaching sort of 0:14:31.476 --> 0:14:35.876 a four part like history, business, production, and musicianship to 0:14:36.956 --> 0:14:42.716 folks who want to be in the music industry, whether producers, artists, managers, executives, journalists, whatever. 0:14:42.996 --> 0:14:45.796 So I teach at TISH. I teach to people who 0:14:46.036 --> 0:14:49.556 live in Weinstein Dorm. Incredible. These are folks who are 0:14:49.596 --> 0:14:54.036 starting their own record companies. While at NYU. So I mean, 0:14:54.596 --> 0:14:58.476 you're obviously very present in all of those things for me, 0:14:58.516 --> 0:15:00.516 and that has really actually been a blessing. I do 0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:03.596 like teaching. It actually had provided a platform for me 0:15:03.756 --> 0:15:07.156 to do other things while I teach, like do TV 0:15:07.236 --> 0:15:10.476 shows and to write more books. And yeah, it's been good. 0:15:10.636 --> 0:15:13.436 What's it like teaching about hip hop? It seems so 0:15:13.516 --> 0:15:16.716 far to me because of my relationship with it. My 0:15:16.836 --> 0:15:20.356 relationship to hip hop was what I did when I 0:15:20.436 --> 0:15:23.756 was at school. That wasn't school. It was like school bad, 0:15:23.836 --> 0:15:27.116 hip hop good. So the idea of those combining it's 0:15:27.156 --> 0:15:31.276 just interesting. Yeah. Well, I will say that the hip 0:15:31.276 --> 0:15:34.836 hop I'm teaching is in some ways disconnected from the 0:15:34.876 --> 0:15:39.476 hip hop that's present today, right, because a lot of 0:15:39.516 --> 0:15:44.276 hip hop today is very mainstreamed, not mainstream, but just 0:15:44.396 --> 0:15:47.916 it's in the mainstream. It's very accessible. And so what 0:15:47.956 --> 0:15:49.796 I try to do is take them back to a 0:15:49.836 --> 0:15:53.236 time when this stuff almost had to be earned. Like 0:15:53.796 --> 0:15:57.716 I call actually call your generation the greatest generation, whether 0:15:57.756 --> 0:16:02.036 we're talking about you or Dante or Faith or Lisa 0:16:02.116 --> 0:16:05.636 Cortes or any of the folks who populated Rush and 0:16:05.716 --> 0:16:09.916 def Jam. In those days, there were risks to engaging 0:16:10.116 --> 0:16:14.316 right new York wasn't safe. Clubs weren't safe. Nothing was easy. 0:16:15.196 --> 0:16:17.876 It wasn't made to be accessible. You had to go 0:16:17.996 --> 0:16:21.956 to negrill to find the good stuff. There were there 0:16:21.956 --> 0:16:24.756 were costs involved. You know, people had to section off 0:16:24.796 --> 0:16:27.316 a piece of a roller rink just to have a party. Right. 0:16:27.956 --> 0:16:31.036 So for me, that's what I try to I try 0:16:31.036 --> 0:16:34.476 to bring students viscerly back to that time where there 0:16:34.636 --> 0:16:37.876 was a sort of barrier to entrance, and what came 0:16:37.916 --> 0:16:42.276 out of that was just this incredible art that only 0:16:42.316 --> 0:16:46.716 measured itself against itself. People weren't thinking about chart position. 0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:52.636 They weren't thinking about comparing cars or stock portfolios or 0:16:52.676 --> 0:16:55.556 how they could make the biggest marketing splash. It was 0:16:55.636 --> 0:16:58.916 a very not an innocent time, but it was a 0:16:59.036 --> 0:17:04.356 very pure time, if that makes sense. Absolutely absolutely I 0:17:04.396 --> 0:17:06.836 felt that. I felt that, and when it started changing, 0:17:07.156 --> 0:17:10.156 I was less connected to it. I didn't get it then, 0:17:10.676 --> 0:17:13.516 but I get it now. Yeah. Felt like in the 0:17:13.596 --> 0:17:16.236 early days there was a real sense of community where 0:17:16.276 --> 0:17:20.316 everyone was working together for something that they loved and 0:17:20.516 --> 0:17:22.716 like all of the artists on def Jam at the time, 0:17:23.116 --> 0:17:26.476 we all felt like a family. And when it became 0:17:26.676 --> 0:17:31.436 more competitive between the artists. I don't know, it shifted 0:17:31.436 --> 0:17:34.876 away in popularity. Also, the people who started coming to 0:17:34.956 --> 0:17:37.916 hip hop were not the people who had pure intention, 0:17:38.036 --> 0:17:40.836 but just you know, people who thought, this is my 0:17:40.956 --> 0:17:44.596 way of cashing in. That's exactly right. And it just 0:17:44.716 --> 0:17:47.236 hit me later. I suppose then it hit you because 0:17:47.236 --> 0:17:49.556 obviously I felt like I was a generation behind you, 0:17:49.596 --> 0:17:51.756 even though it was only four years behind you. Yeah, 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:54.276 it would be a hip hop generation behind though if 0:17:54.276 --> 0:17:56.516 you think of it in terms of it's not necessarily 0:17:56.556 --> 0:17:59.436 a number of years. It's kind of like by movement, right, 0:17:59.516 --> 0:18:03.116 And so you came of age in this era. It 0:18:03.156 --> 0:18:06.156 was like even before the advent of digital sampling. Absolutely, 0:18:06.316 --> 0:18:10.316 you weren't sampling in the studio. There were no samplers 0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:14.316 with Nope. At the end, there were sampling, but we 0:18:14.476 --> 0:18:18.276 never really embraced it because we had our other methods. 0:18:20.036 --> 0:18:22.036 We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll 0:18:22.036 --> 0:18:29.156 be back with more from Dan Charnis. We're back with 0:18:29.236 --> 0:18:34.036 Rick Rubens conversation with Dan Charnis. Tell me about the 0:18:34.236 --> 0:18:39.956 Dila book. When did the idea come? This is a book. Okay, 0:18:40.276 --> 0:18:44.876 So it begins when I am at American Recordings and 0:18:45.116 --> 0:18:48.156 I've signed this artist named Gino Xcel, or actually I 0:18:48.196 --> 0:18:51.156 signed the group that he belonged to, which is this 0:18:51.196 --> 0:18:53.156 group called the Art of Origin out of New Jersey, 0:18:53.156 --> 0:18:58.236 two guys, Gino Xcel and Kerry Chandler. Kerry was always 0:18:58.236 --> 0:19:01.036 sort of not present enough. And one of the things 0:19:01.116 --> 0:19:02.676 I had to learn is an A and R person 0:19:02.876 --> 0:19:04.556 that I didn't learn until too late, is it You 0:19:04.596 --> 0:19:06.796 can't want it more than the artist. The artist has 0:19:06.836 --> 0:19:09.116 to want it. And what Kerry wanted was a career 0:19:09.396 --> 0:19:11.716 in house music and deep house, and he to this 0:19:11.796 --> 0:19:17.436 day is one of the most lauded accomplished deep house 0:19:17.676 --> 0:19:21.236 pioneers like he is seen that way. So he knew 0:19:21.276 --> 0:19:23.676 his path. What we now had to figure out what 0:19:23.796 --> 0:19:26.716 was what was the path for Chino Xcel. We really 0:19:26.756 --> 0:19:28.476 didn't have much of a budget. We were kind of 0:19:28.476 --> 0:19:34.156 doing things philosophically on a shoestring at at American, so 0:19:34.516 --> 0:19:39.076 we sort of cobbled together that first album that actually 0:19:39.116 --> 0:19:41.556 did better than most people thought it was going to do. 0:19:41.796 --> 0:19:44.236 So we were ready to do the second album and 0:19:44.276 --> 0:19:46.436 we had kind of a budget and this was going 0:19:46.516 --> 0:19:48.996 to be now at Warner Brothers as American was moving 0:19:49.036 --> 0:19:52.116 to Sony. We made a list of producers that we 0:19:52.156 --> 0:19:55.276 wanted to work with, and one of those guys was 0:19:55.796 --> 0:19:58.916 this kid named j d out of Detroit. So now 0:19:58.916 --> 0:20:01.116 I'm going to wind the clock back a little bit 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:05.276 because there's a story there too. You remember, back at 0:20:05.356 --> 0:20:09.516 Deaf American, the Far Side was a group that sort 0:20:09.556 --> 0:20:12.316 of in our orbit and was signed by friends of 0:20:12.356 --> 0:20:14.796 ours at Delicious Vinyl. And the Far Side did this 0:20:14.956 --> 0:20:18.556 amazing first album and they were produced by this amazing 0:20:18.596 --> 0:20:21.916 producer named Jay Swift. And then we found out that 0:20:22.036 --> 0:20:27.436 Jay Swift was leaving the Far Side and I said, Rick, man, 0:20:27.676 --> 0:20:32.836 this kid, he's great, right, And we were in a 0:20:32.956 --> 0:20:38.676 bidding war with Tommy Boy to get Jay Swift's record label. 0:20:39.116 --> 0:20:41.276 I remember you and I spent a day with Jay 0:20:41.316 --> 0:20:45.236 Swift and his people and his artists, driving around listening 0:20:45.236 --> 0:20:48.276 to music, visiting their house. And you didn't do a 0:20:48.276 --> 0:20:51.396 lot of that, Rick, Like, I knew that that was special, 0:20:51.396 --> 0:20:52.956 and I felt like you were doing that for me 0:20:53.276 --> 0:20:55.716 in a way. I actually don't even remember it happened, 0:20:55.756 --> 0:20:57.676 but I know that if I was there, I was 0:20:57.716 --> 0:21:00.156 there because you believed in it and I was supporting you. 0:21:00.476 --> 0:21:03.396 Oh you were man. So then at the end of 0:21:03.436 --> 0:21:09.476 our day together, you very us sanely asked them, so 0:21:09.556 --> 0:21:12.756 what are you looking for? Right? Finally came the business 0:21:12.836 --> 0:21:17.036 question and Lamar Algie, who was working with Jay Swift 0:21:17.036 --> 0:21:21.196 at time, he said a million dollars and we dropped 0:21:21.236 --> 0:21:24.956 them off. We drove off, and we nearly got into 0:21:24.956 --> 0:21:28.156 a car crash after we drove off because it was 0:21:28.196 --> 0:21:32.276 just like more than we had ever paid really for anything. 0:21:32.356 --> 0:21:34.596 And we knew at that moment that it just was 0:21:34.676 --> 0:21:38.276 not going to happen. And so Tommy Boy got Jay 0:21:38.356 --> 0:21:40.876 Swift and his record label, and that was probably a 0:21:40.916 --> 0:21:42.796 blessing in disguise because that did not end up too 0:21:42.836 --> 0:21:46.036 well for Jay Swift for them. But the other path 0:21:46.076 --> 0:21:48.396 of that equation was what's the Far Side gonna do 0:21:48.436 --> 0:21:50.116 now that Jay Swift's not with them? They did this 0:21:50.156 --> 0:21:54.276 amazing album. This is their their musical voice. And I 0:21:54.316 --> 0:21:58.196 remember asking Mike Ross, what's Far Side gonna do? He says, oh, no, 0:21:58.236 --> 0:22:00.876 don't worry. We found this kid in Detroit named j D. 0:22:01.396 --> 0:22:05.436 I said, Jay D Detroit. No hip hop has come 0:22:05.436 --> 0:22:07.796 out of Detroit's what you know the only thing we'd 0:22:07.796 --> 0:22:09.716 ever heard out of Detroit was all some dre and 0:22:09.716 --> 0:22:13.996 the hardcore Committee from nineteen eighty eight, no conception that 0:22:14.076 --> 0:22:16.316 there could be anything like that coming out of Detroit. 0:22:16.356 --> 0:22:19.116 Of course, in ninety five when we heard the Far 0:22:19.196 --> 0:22:24.236 Side second album, when we heard Running, immediately we all knew, 0:22:24.276 --> 0:22:26.956 like JD is it. So that is how I end 0:22:27.076 --> 0:22:32.396 up flying to Detroit with Chino Excel in the summer 0:22:32.436 --> 0:22:35.956 of nineteen ninety nine. It's my very first time in Detroit. 0:22:36.156 --> 0:22:38.996 We drive out to his neighborhood of Conan Gardens. We 0:22:39.116 --> 0:22:42.156 park outside his house, the very famous basement door, this 0:22:42.316 --> 0:22:45.836 white door on the side of the house. We walked downstairs. 0:22:45.916 --> 0:22:49.996 There's common sense. What's common sense doing here? He'd already 0:22:49.996 --> 0:22:53.276 become common but I was still thinking, you know, I 0:22:53.316 --> 0:22:55.356 didn't realize he was in the middle of making that 0:22:55.436 --> 0:22:58.956 groundbreaking album like Water for Chocolate. We hung out, we 0:22:58.956 --> 0:23:02.436 went to Mongolian barbecue, we went to the studio. It 0:23:02.556 --> 0:23:06.916 was very It did not feel like history right, so 0:23:06.996 --> 0:23:11.076 much so I brought my camera to Detroit and I 0:23:11.196 --> 0:23:13.836 left it in the hotel room. What did I bring 0:23:13.836 --> 0:23:15.996 my camera to Detroit to do? To take pictures of 0:23:16.076 --> 0:23:21.196 us at the Motown Museum? Because I just didn't understand 0:23:21.716 --> 0:23:24.236 that what I was witnessing in the basement was a 0:23:24.316 --> 0:23:29.636 similar level of not just Detroit history, but music history. 0:23:29.956 --> 0:23:33.396 I hadn't you know, I was a knucklehead. As your 0:23:33.476 --> 0:23:35.956 former partner once said about me, he's smart, but he 0:23:35.996 --> 0:23:39.956 don't know nothing. That's me smart but I don't know nothing. 0:23:40.396 --> 0:23:44.276