1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, it's justin Richmond. Today on the show, 2 00:00:23,396 --> 00:00:27,876 Speaker 1: we're talking to Dan Charnis. Dan Charnis is many things. 3 00:00:28,196 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 1: He's an author, hip hop journalist, professor, showrunner, former A 4 00:00:33,396 --> 00:00:36,876 Speaker 1: and R person for Deaf American, and also a longtime 5 00:00:36,916 --> 00:00:40,396 Speaker 1: friend of Rick Rubens, with a handful of books under 6 00:00:40,436 --> 00:00:44,236 Speaker 1: his belt and awards like the Pulitzer Fellowship for Arts Journalism. 7 00:00:44,316 --> 00:00:47,596 Speaker 1: His latest book, Dilla Time, the Life and afterlife of 8 00:00:47,676 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 1: Jay Dilla, the hip hop producer who reinvented rhythm, is 9 00:00:51,156 --> 00:00:55,076 Speaker 1: the product of four years of exhaustive research in nearly 10 00:00:55,156 --> 00:00:59,436 Speaker 1: two hundred interviews. On today's episode, Rick Rubin speaks with 11 00:00:59,516 --> 00:01:01,796 Speaker 1: Dan Charnis about how the roots of his new book 12 00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:04,076 Speaker 1: go all the way back to when they were working together, 13 00:01:04,436 --> 00:01:07,036 Speaker 1: and a trip he took to Detroit with rapper Chino 14 00:01:07,116 --> 00:01:09,916 Speaker 1: Excel to work with the producer are then known as 15 00:01:10,356 --> 00:01:14,036 Speaker 1: j D. Rick and Charnis also reminisce about their earliest 16 00:01:14,116 --> 00:01:17,236 Speaker 1: memories together, and Charnis shares what it was like meeting 17 00:01:17,316 --> 00:01:23,756 Speaker 1: Rick's mother, Missus Ruben, for the first time. This is 18 00:01:23,876 --> 00:01:27,716 Speaker 1: broken record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. 19 00:01:28,516 --> 00:01:31,156 Speaker 1: Here's Rick Rubin and Dan Charnis on the genius of 20 00:01:31,276 --> 00:01:33,916 Speaker 1: Jay Dillah. But first we'll hear a bit of background 21 00:01:33,956 --> 00:01:37,076 Speaker 1: on Dan's career and relationship with Rick, all leading up 22 00:01:37,276 --> 00:01:41,356 Speaker 1: to his new book. Do you remember how we actually met? 23 00:01:41,476 --> 00:01:44,316 Speaker 1: First time we met, I do tell me. I got 24 00:01:44,316 --> 00:01:46,916 Speaker 1: a phone call. I was sitting in the conference room 25 00:01:46,916 --> 00:01:50,716 Speaker 1: at Profile Records, getting ready to call my panel of 26 00:01:51,636 --> 00:01:56,876 Speaker 1: rap record retailers when the receptionists said, Rick's on the phone, 27 00:01:57,196 --> 00:02:00,796 Speaker 1: and I just knew. Of all the ricks, I knew. 28 00:02:00,876 --> 00:02:05,036 Speaker 1: I just had a premonition it was you, even though 29 00:02:05,036 --> 00:02:08,196 Speaker 1: we had never met, because I had put it in 30 00:02:08,316 --> 00:02:12,036 Speaker 1: my mind for the last I don't know two months 31 00:02:13,556 --> 00:02:16,676 Speaker 1: that I was going to meet you had not told anybody. 32 00:02:16,676 --> 00:02:18,556 Speaker 1: I had not told Bill Stephanie, who I guess is 33 00:02:18,596 --> 00:02:21,876 Speaker 1: the person who connected us. I picked up the phone 34 00:02:21,876 --> 00:02:25,076 Speaker 1: and there you were, and you were looking for somebody 35 00:02:25,116 --> 00:02:28,276 Speaker 1: to either help you out with a deaf American in 36 00:02:28,356 --> 00:02:32,116 Speaker 1: terms of like hip hop stuff, or Warner Brothers as well. 37 00:02:32,156 --> 00:02:34,036 Speaker 1: So that's how we met. You were in New York 38 00:02:34,716 --> 00:02:40,756 Speaker 1: for the Black Crow's Gold album release party, and we 39 00:02:41,836 --> 00:02:43,996 Speaker 1: hung out. It was very much like I went to 40 00:02:44,036 --> 00:02:46,196 Speaker 1: the Union Square coffee house to meet you for the 41 00:02:46,236 --> 00:02:50,316 Speaker 1: first time, very nervous because obviously it's one of my 42 00:02:50,396 --> 00:02:53,596 Speaker 1: musical heroes I'm meeting, But very quickly you made me 43 00:02:53,676 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 1: super comfortable. You were staying top two floors of two 44 00:02:57,596 --> 00:03:00,116 Speaker 1: Night eight Elizabeth Street, and I went there to meet 45 00:03:00,116 --> 00:03:02,036 Speaker 1: you because we were just going to like go record shopping. 46 00:03:02,036 --> 00:03:04,676 Speaker 1: We're just gonna do something fun, and you dropped the 47 00:03:04,756 --> 00:03:08,516 Speaker 1: keys out of the window down to Elizabeth Street, and 48 00:03:08,596 --> 00:03:10,836 Speaker 1: that's that's how we met. Yet I didn't want a 49 00:03:10,876 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 1: buzzer because they didn't want anybody to visit, so it 50 00:03:13,316 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 1: was the only time, like if I knew that someone 51 00:03:15,836 --> 00:03:18,316 Speaker 1: was coming, I think maybe even the keys would go 52 00:03:18,316 --> 00:03:20,756 Speaker 1: into a sock because it was a long distance down 53 00:03:20,796 --> 00:03:23,316 Speaker 1: and then throw the keys out the window, and then 54 00:03:23,516 --> 00:03:26,036 Speaker 1: that's how we would That was fun. Yeah, you were 55 00:03:26,036 --> 00:03:28,716 Speaker 1: one of the very few people who ever visited there, 56 00:03:28,756 --> 00:03:31,956 Speaker 1: just because I like to be alone. And it was 57 00:03:32,116 --> 00:03:34,516 Speaker 1: at the time abandoned, not abandoned, but you know, def 58 00:03:34,556 --> 00:03:37,116 Speaker 1: JAM had left. They had moved their offices around the 59 00:03:37,156 --> 00:03:40,756 Speaker 1: corner to the six hundred block of Broadway. It was 60 00:03:40,836 --> 00:03:43,316 Speaker 1: just your place on the top two floors, and it 61 00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:45,716 Speaker 1: was spick and span, you know, I think there were 62 00:03:45,716 --> 00:03:48,196 Speaker 1: the remnants of a recording studio that never quite got 63 00:03:48,196 --> 00:03:51,596 Speaker 1: built in the basement. Yes, and it was this little 64 00:03:51,716 --> 00:03:58,396 Speaker 1: interesting window between your def jam years and the American 65 00:03:58,716 --> 00:04:03,676 Speaker 1: years where things were kind of in flux, very interesting. 66 00:04:03,836 --> 00:04:08,756 Speaker 1: I spent three years building that place, and I think 67 00:04:08,796 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 1: within in a month of it being finished, I moved 68 00:04:12,116 --> 00:04:15,476 Speaker 1: to California, So I never really lived there. But when 69 00:04:15,476 --> 00:04:17,996 Speaker 1: I was living in California, if I did come to 70 00:04:18,036 --> 00:04:20,756 Speaker 1: New York, I would stay there. And that was probably 71 00:04:20,796 --> 00:04:23,236 Speaker 1: the last time I ever stayed there because even after that, 72 00:04:23,276 --> 00:04:26,956 Speaker 1: while I continued owning it, it just felt like, because 73 00:04:27,036 --> 00:04:30,996 Speaker 1: nobody lived there for so long, it lacked a spirit. 74 00:04:31,116 --> 00:04:33,316 Speaker 1: When he came into it, it didn't fuel right, So 75 00:04:33,356 --> 00:04:36,316 Speaker 1: I started staying in hotels. I remember that. The two 76 00:04:36,356 --> 00:04:39,316 Speaker 1: things I want to share about that era. The first 77 00:04:39,316 --> 00:04:42,156 Speaker 1: thing is that weekend where you were in New York. 78 00:04:42,956 --> 00:04:45,396 Speaker 1: We went to Tower Records together when there was such 79 00:04:45,396 --> 00:04:49,076 Speaker 1: a thing, and you said to me, you buy me 80 00:04:49,116 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 1: a bunch of CDs of stuff that you like, and 81 00:04:51,836 --> 00:04:54,436 Speaker 1: I'll buy you a bunch of CDs stuff that I like. 82 00:04:55,036 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 1: And we went back to Elizabeth Street and we listened, 83 00:04:59,316 --> 00:05:04,836 Speaker 1: and your purchases were audio too, Wow, and sir, mix 84 00:05:04,876 --> 00:05:08,916 Speaker 1: a lot and mine were you know, the raft of 85 00:05:09,156 --> 00:05:11,476 Speaker 1: Golden age stuff that was coming out then the big 86 00:05:11,836 --> 00:05:17,156 Speaker 1: Daddy Kane Bismarcki EPMD. And I didn't really like the 87 00:05:17,196 --> 00:05:20,076 Speaker 1: stuff that you had bought, and you weren't really interested 88 00:05:20,076 --> 00:05:23,716 Speaker 1: in the stuff that I bought. But for whatever reason, 89 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:29,596 Speaker 1: that was like okay, like absolutely, you actually saw that 90 00:05:29,676 --> 00:05:33,036 Speaker 1: I had a piece right that was independent of your piece. 91 00:05:33,436 --> 00:05:35,556 Speaker 1: And I never forgot that. I never forgot like, oh, 92 00:05:35,596 --> 00:05:37,476 Speaker 1: this is how you can be, I mean even just 93 00:05:37,596 --> 00:05:40,316 Speaker 1: in future situations, in business situations. This is how you 94 00:05:40,356 --> 00:05:42,796 Speaker 1: can be as a creative. This is how you can 95 00:05:42,836 --> 00:05:46,436 Speaker 1: be as a manager. You don't have to know or 96 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:49,956 Speaker 1: master or even like the whole thing, but you can 97 00:05:49,996 --> 00:05:53,356 Speaker 1: have people around you that complete that part of it. 98 00:05:53,756 --> 00:05:56,676 Speaker 1: So that was great. And then, of course when I 99 00:05:56,716 --> 00:06:00,476 Speaker 1: started working for you in nineteen ninety one, the thing 100 00:06:00,516 --> 00:06:03,116 Speaker 1: that I remember the most of the errands, and one 101 00:06:03,116 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 1: of the errands was to go back to Elizabeth Street 102 00:06:07,276 --> 00:06:10,756 Speaker 1: and get all the belongings of a paramour of yours 103 00:06:10,916 --> 00:06:13,476 Speaker 1: and put him in a box and send them. And 104 00:06:13,516 --> 00:06:15,436 Speaker 1: then of course my favorite one was going out to 105 00:06:15,556 --> 00:06:19,476 Speaker 1: Long Beach to the garage to dig out a whole 106 00:06:19,476 --> 00:06:23,116 Speaker 1: bunch of master tapes and other things from my parents' house. Yes, 107 00:06:23,436 --> 00:06:28,196 Speaker 1: Linda and Mickey, Yes, yes, and your mother, Linda Ruben, 108 00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:32,116 Speaker 1: she says to me. As I walk in, she says, um, 109 00:06:32,236 --> 00:06:35,756 Speaker 1: can I get you anything? And I'm trying to be polite, 110 00:06:35,756 --> 00:06:37,876 Speaker 1: I say, no, mus Ruben, I'm fine. What do you mean? 111 00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:39,716 Speaker 1: You fine? How could you be fine? How could you 112 00:06:39,796 --> 00:06:45,436 Speaker 1: possibly be fine? That's I loved her from that moment on. Yeah, yeah, 113 00:06:45,476 --> 00:06:48,396 Speaker 1: that's that's that's Linda Ruben. And of course, and I 114 00:06:48,436 --> 00:06:50,156 Speaker 1: don't know if any of this is usable for you. 115 00:06:50,316 --> 00:06:52,916 Speaker 1: I will say that your father, like he reminded me, 116 00:06:53,196 --> 00:06:55,716 Speaker 1: you know so much of you? He says, did Ricky 117 00:06:55,756 --> 00:07:01,516 Speaker 1: ever tell you about his magic shows? The best? The best? 118 00:07:01,596 --> 00:07:05,396 Speaker 1: And that was a Rick Rubin, uh you know phrase 119 00:07:05,516 --> 00:07:07,716 Speaker 1: that I remember, so yeah, it might have been. It 120 00:07:07,756 --> 00:07:11,236 Speaker 1: might have been a Mickey Ruben phrase that I adopted. Yes, indeed, 121 00:07:11,476 --> 00:07:14,716 Speaker 1: now I note from that window we had a good 122 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:18,276 Speaker 1: run together, and I remember it fondly, and I want 123 00:07:18,276 --> 00:07:21,316 Speaker 1: to ask about posts to our run. Tell me about 124 00:07:21,356 --> 00:07:24,156 Speaker 1: your life starting. I remember you really getting into yoga. 125 00:07:24,396 --> 00:07:28,276 Speaker 1: It feels like as as we made our conscious uncompiling. 126 00:07:29,356 --> 00:07:35,836 Speaker 1: Yea where you were consciously uncoupling from the first iteration 127 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:41,196 Speaker 1: of American recordings. You were moving from Warner Brothers to Sony. Yeah, 128 00:07:41,316 --> 00:07:44,316 Speaker 1: and I had been working on a project with a 129 00:07:44,436 --> 00:07:48,516 Speaker 1: rapper MC named Chino Excel, who very much made a 130 00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:50,756 Speaker 1: lot of friends at Warner Brothers. So the idea was 131 00:07:50,796 --> 00:07:53,956 Speaker 1: that I would stay with Warner Brothers, and you tried, 132 00:07:54,156 --> 00:07:58,116 Speaker 1: you know, to help that situation happen. Actually, thank you 133 00:07:58,196 --> 00:08:00,316 Speaker 1: very much. So you moved into sort of the system 134 00:08:00,356 --> 00:08:02,956 Speaker 1: of a down era, the Sony American era. And then 135 00:08:03,036 --> 00:08:05,556 Speaker 1: I remained with Warner Brothers and Chino for a little 136 00:08:05,556 --> 00:08:10,796 Speaker 1: bit until Forrest Whittaker hired me to run his record 137 00:08:10,796 --> 00:08:15,676 Speaker 1: company through Sony. And that was about a year two years, 138 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:19,716 Speaker 1: and I was already a certified yoga teacher. It had 139 00:08:19,836 --> 00:08:22,396 Speaker 1: basically saved my life. While I was working for you, 140 00:08:22,956 --> 00:08:25,796 Speaker 1: I was introduced to that entire world value. So let's 141 00:08:25,796 --> 00:08:28,956 Speaker 1: just say that while I was with Forrest, I decided 142 00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:33,116 Speaker 1: to start writing again. I hadn't written professionally since I 143 00:08:33,116 --> 00:08:35,076 Speaker 1: had been writing for the Source around the time that 144 00:08:35,116 --> 00:08:39,476 Speaker 1: I joined Deaf American, so I decided to start writing 145 00:08:39,636 --> 00:08:42,116 Speaker 1: for the screen. And what I ended up doing after 146 00:08:42,156 --> 00:08:46,036 Speaker 1: I left Forest was writing comedy for MTV and b 147 00:08:46,196 --> 00:08:48,756 Speaker 1: Et I wrote a season of The Lyricist Lounge Show. 148 00:08:49,236 --> 00:08:52,716 Speaker 1: I wrote for a season of Comic View, and eventually 149 00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:55,796 Speaker 1: it led me to decide that, Okay, I am going 150 00:08:55,836 --> 00:08:58,716 Speaker 1: to go back to New York and see if I 151 00:08:58,756 --> 00:09:01,436 Speaker 1: can get myself into journalism school. Like just shot up 152 00:09:01,476 --> 00:09:04,596 Speaker 1: my foundation again. I moved to California in ninety one, 153 00:09:05,116 --> 00:09:07,196 Speaker 1: moved back to New York in two thousand and four, 154 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:11,676 Speaker 1: got accepted to the Columbia School of Journalism. I spent 155 00:09:11,756 --> 00:09:15,276 Speaker 1: two years there. I did my master's project in the 156 00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:19,116 Speaker 1: West Bank. My beat. Every person who is in that 157 00:09:19,156 --> 00:09:21,396 Speaker 1: program gets a little beat in the city. So my 158 00:09:21,436 --> 00:09:26,236 Speaker 1: beat was Hunt's point in the Bronx. So literally, I'm 159 00:09:26,276 --> 00:09:29,996 Speaker 1: pounding the pavement. I'm a journalist again. Wow. But the 160 00:09:30,476 --> 00:09:37,716 Speaker 1: crowning course of that program was a course called book writing, 161 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:43,956 Speaker 1: which is taught by a really impressive and formidable writer 162 00:09:44,076 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 1: for the New York Times named Sam Friedman, and he 163 00:09:47,196 --> 00:09:50,636 Speaker 1: only accepted about twenty five students a year. In this 164 00:09:50,836 --> 00:09:53,556 Speaker 1: you have to apply to get into the class, give 165 00:09:53,596 --> 00:09:57,956 Speaker 1: to propose a book. So this book I proposed, which 166 00:09:57,996 --> 00:10:01,436 Speaker 1: became the big payback, was called Beats rhymes in cash 167 00:10:01,476 --> 00:10:04,236 Speaker 1: and it was the history of the business side of 168 00:10:04,276 --> 00:10:08,076 Speaker 1: hip hop, because there were books that were coming out 169 00:10:08,156 --> 00:10:12,236 Speaker 1: about hip hop that were very artists and music centric, 170 00:10:12,476 --> 00:10:15,156 Speaker 1: but they were missing the key part of it for me, 171 00:10:15,596 --> 00:10:19,236 Speaker 1: which was how did this thing get big? Right? Rundy 172 00:10:19,276 --> 00:10:23,396 Speaker 1: MC didn't just appear and you know they were suddenly 173 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:26,876 Speaker 1: on MTV. People had to fight tooth and nail to 174 00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:30,556 Speaker 1: get them into record stores, on radio stations, onto MTV. 175 00:10:30,676 --> 00:10:33,916 Speaker 1: How did that part happen? The main characters in this 176 00:10:33,956 --> 00:10:39,476 Speaker 1: book were going to be the business people, and that proposal, 177 00:10:39,636 --> 00:10:43,276 Speaker 1: that book proposal was started in Sam Friedman's class. It 178 00:10:43,356 --> 00:10:46,196 Speaker 1: was like, you know all those movies you see, the 179 00:10:46,236 --> 00:10:48,836 Speaker 1: martial arts movies like kill Bill, you know the cruel 180 00:10:48,876 --> 00:10:52,356 Speaker 1: tutelage of Pie May. I mean. NPR came to tape 181 00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:54,476 Speaker 1: one of our classes, and I believe on NPR there 182 00:10:54,516 --> 00:10:59,276 Speaker 1: is still a recording of Freedman telling me about something 183 00:10:59,276 --> 00:11:02,836 Speaker 1: that I had written. I was defending it and he said, Dan, 184 00:11:03,356 --> 00:11:06,356 Speaker 1: as they say on the basketball court, stopped bringing that week. 185 00:11:06,596 --> 00:11:12,036 Speaker 1: Wow man. Wow. So that was the beginning for me 186 00:11:12,396 --> 00:11:17,036 Speaker 1: of a new foundation in writing and a new life, 187 00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:21,476 Speaker 1: but also spiritually a way to wrap up a career 188 00:11:22,076 --> 00:11:24,996 Speaker 1: in the music business that I felt very ambivalent about. 189 00:11:25,236 --> 00:11:28,316 Speaker 1: I think the last time I saw you, I was 190 00:11:28,316 --> 00:11:30,436 Speaker 1: doing interviews for The Big Payback, and I think I 191 00:11:30,436 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 1: said something. I apologized, like, I apologize for not being 192 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:35,836 Speaker 1: a good enough A and R person, And I know 193 00:11:35,876 --> 00:11:38,756 Speaker 1: that's not how you think about things at all. It 194 00:11:38,876 --> 00:11:43,516 Speaker 1: just came out of me, the shame of not having 195 00:11:43,556 --> 00:11:48,156 Speaker 1: signed Coolio when I had the child, like Matt, you know, 196 00:11:48,796 --> 00:11:52,036 Speaker 1: and I'm since then, I'm much kinder to myself. But 197 00:11:52,276 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 1: I feel like my aunt, my mother's sister. She was 198 00:11:56,196 --> 00:11:59,356 Speaker 1: the like associate dean of the UCLA Film School while 199 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:02,196 Speaker 1: I was in California, actually, and I remember going out 200 00:12:02,196 --> 00:12:05,836 Speaker 1: to dinner with her and sharing that ambivalence, and she said, 201 00:12:06,276 --> 00:12:09,996 Speaker 1: life gathers beautiful. There is nothing that I have done 202 00:12:10,956 --> 00:12:13,516 Speaker 1: that I haven't somehow gathered into the next thing that 203 00:12:13,636 --> 00:12:15,956 Speaker 1: I am doing. And then also, you know, it's a 204 00:12:16,036 --> 00:12:20,436 Speaker 1: very sort of Rubenesque holistic way of looking at life. 205 00:12:20,476 --> 00:12:25,516 Speaker 1: So that's kind of how I got into this second 206 00:12:25,996 --> 00:12:29,476 Speaker 1: career of mine. Wow, you go to Columbia, you become 207 00:12:29,516 --> 00:12:32,956 Speaker 1: a book writer, And how long was the process from 208 00:12:32,996 --> 00:12:36,396 Speaker 1: starting the class deciding it's going to be this book 209 00:12:36,436 --> 00:12:38,716 Speaker 1: that turns into the big payback. How long was it 210 00:12:38,756 --> 00:12:41,556 Speaker 1: before the big payback actually came to fruition? Oh wow. 211 00:12:41,676 --> 00:12:44,516 Speaker 1: I graduated in two thousand and seven. What helped me 212 00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:47,876 Speaker 1: was I got a Pulitzer Arts Fellowship, so that provided 213 00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:49,796 Speaker 1: a little bit of funding. I sold the book, so 214 00:12:49,836 --> 00:12:51,916 Speaker 1: I would say about three to four years to sort 215 00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:54,076 Speaker 1: of finish that book. And my son was born like 216 00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:55,676 Speaker 1: in the middle of it. I got married in the 217 00:12:55,676 --> 00:12:58,636 Speaker 1: middle of it. But it came out finally in December 218 00:12:58,756 --> 00:13:01,356 Speaker 1: of twenty ten, and it was It was a six 219 00:13:01,516 --> 00:13:07,316 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty pages, forty years the comprehensive telling of 220 00:13:07,596 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 1: our story right the music business side of hip hop. 221 00:13:11,156 --> 00:13:14,516 Speaker 1: I remember it seemed very well received at the time. 222 00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:17,396 Speaker 1: I think it was it was a thrill to be 223 00:13:17,796 --> 00:13:21,076 Speaker 1: on you know, NPR and to do Terry Gross and 224 00:13:21,236 --> 00:13:24,916 Speaker 1: to be able to talk about something like this on 225 00:13:24,956 --> 00:13:27,636 Speaker 1: a large stage. I mean, it's still taught in schools. 226 00:13:27,916 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 1: But what excites me about it are the characters within it. 227 00:13:30,916 --> 00:13:33,836 Speaker 1: You Know, we get to meet Sylvia Robinson, we meet Russell, 228 00:13:33,916 --> 00:13:36,796 Speaker 1: we meet you, we meet Lee or you know, we 229 00:13:36,876 --> 00:13:39,556 Speaker 1: see how folks who don't even like hip hop end 230 00:13:39,636 --> 00:13:43,116 Speaker 1: up doing these amazing things that completely save it. That 231 00:13:43,156 --> 00:13:45,596 Speaker 1: to me is was the fun part to be able 232 00:13:45,596 --> 00:13:48,716 Speaker 1: to not just introduce people to the lives of the 233 00:13:48,756 --> 00:13:51,436 Speaker 1: folks that they did know, but also you know, hey, 234 00:13:51,476 --> 00:13:54,716 Speaker 1: here's what Keith Nafterly did at this FM radio station 235 00:13:54,756 --> 00:13:59,836 Speaker 1: in San Francisco that completely changed American radio right. American 236 00:13:59,916 --> 00:14:05,396 Speaker 1: radio was segregated, literally racially segregated almost fully before this 237 00:14:05,436 --> 00:14:08,596 Speaker 1: guy came along and blew it all open. Yeah. And 238 00:14:08,676 --> 00:14:12,916 Speaker 1: you've hot hip hop related classes at NYU. Yeah, And 239 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:15,836 Speaker 1: that's another sort of homecoming for me in some respect. 240 00:14:15,956 --> 00:14:18,956 Speaker 1: The book again put me in position to become full 241 00:14:18,956 --> 00:14:22,556 Speaker 1: time faculty at TISH. Wow. So I have been full 242 00:14:22,556 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 1: time faculty at TISH at what is called the Clive 243 00:14:25,556 --> 00:14:28,876 Speaker 1: Davis Institute of Recorded Music, which I believe is the 244 00:14:28,916 --> 00:14:31,476 Speaker 1: first school of its kind, you know, teaching sort of 245 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:35,876 Speaker 1: a four part like history, business, production, and musicianship to 246 00:14:36,956 --> 00:14:42,716 Speaker 1: folks who want to be in the music industry, whether producers, artists, managers, executives, journalists, whatever. 247 00:14:42,996 --> 00:14:45,796 Speaker 1: So I teach at TISH. I teach to people who 248 00:14:46,036 --> 00:14:49,556 Speaker 1: live in Weinstein Dorm. Incredible. These are folks who are 249 00:14:49,596 --> 00:14:54,036 Speaker 1: starting their own record companies. While at NYU. So I mean, 250 00:14:54,596 --> 00:14:58,476 Speaker 1: you're obviously very present in all of those things for me, 251 00:14:58,516 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 1: and that has really actually been a blessing. I do 252 00:15:00,716 --> 00:15:03,596 Speaker 1: like teaching. It actually had provided a platform for me 253 00:15:03,756 --> 00:15:07,156 Speaker 1: to do other things while I teach, like do TV 254 00:15:07,236 --> 00:15:10,476 Speaker 1: shows and to write more books. And yeah, it's been good. 255 00:15:10,636 --> 00:15:13,436 Speaker 1: What's it like teaching about hip hop? It seems so 256 00:15:13,516 --> 00:15:16,716 Speaker 1: far to me because of my relationship with it. My 257 00:15:16,836 --> 00:15:20,356 Speaker 1: relationship to hip hop was what I did when I 258 00:15:20,436 --> 00:15:23,756 Speaker 1: was at school. That wasn't school. It was like school bad, 259 00:15:23,836 --> 00:15:27,116 Speaker 1: hip hop good. So the idea of those combining it's 260 00:15:27,156 --> 00:15:31,276 Speaker 1: just interesting. Yeah. Well, I will say that the hip 261 00:15:31,276 --> 00:15:34,836 Speaker 1: hop I'm teaching is in some ways disconnected from the 262 00:15:34,876 --> 00:15:39,476 Speaker 1: hip hop that's present today, right, because a lot of 263 00:15:39,516 --> 00:15:44,276 Speaker 1: hip hop today is very mainstreamed, not mainstream, but just 264 00:15:44,396 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 1: it's in the mainstream. It's very accessible. And so what 265 00:15:47,956 --> 00:15:49,796 Speaker 1: I try to do is take them back to a 266 00:15:49,836 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 1: time when this stuff almost had to be earned. Like 267 00:15:53,796 --> 00:15:57,716 Speaker 1: I call actually call your generation the greatest generation, whether 268 00:15:57,756 --> 00:16:02,036 Speaker 1: we're talking about you or Dante or Faith or Lisa 269 00:16:02,116 --> 00:16:05,636 Speaker 1: Cortes or any of the folks who populated Rush and 270 00:16:05,716 --> 00:16:09,916 Speaker 1: def Jam. In those days, there were risks to engaging 271 00:16:10,116 --> 00:16:14,316 Speaker 1: right new York wasn't safe. Clubs weren't safe. Nothing was easy. 272 00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:17,876 Speaker 1: It wasn't made to be accessible. You had to go 273 00:16:17,996 --> 00:16:21,956 Speaker 1: to negrill to find the good stuff. There were there 274 00:16:21,956 --> 00:16:24,756 Speaker 1: were costs involved. You know, people had to section off 275 00:16:24,796 --> 00:16:27,316 Speaker 1: a piece of a roller rink just to have a party. Right. 276 00:16:27,956 --> 00:16:31,036 Speaker 1: So for me, that's what I try to I try 277 00:16:31,036 --> 00:16:34,476 Speaker 1: to bring students viscerly back to that time where there 278 00:16:34,636 --> 00:16:37,876 Speaker 1: was a sort of barrier to entrance, and what came 279 00:16:37,916 --> 00:16:42,276 Speaker 1: out of that was just this incredible art that only 280 00:16:42,316 --> 00:16:46,716 Speaker 1: measured itself against itself. People weren't thinking about chart position. 281 00:16:46,836 --> 00:16:52,636 Speaker 1: They weren't thinking about comparing cars or stock portfolios or 282 00:16:52,676 --> 00:16:55,556 Speaker 1: how they could make the biggest marketing splash. It was 283 00:16:55,636 --> 00:16:58,916 Speaker 1: a very not an innocent time, but it was a 284 00:16:59,036 --> 00:17:04,356 Speaker 1: very pure time, if that makes sense. Absolutely absolutely I 285 00:17:04,396 --> 00:17:06,836 Speaker 1: felt that. I felt that, and when it started changing, 286 00:17:07,156 --> 00:17:10,156 Speaker 1: I was less connected to it. I didn't get it then, 287 00:17:10,676 --> 00:17:13,516 Speaker 1: but I get it now. Yeah. Felt like in the 288 00:17:13,596 --> 00:17:16,236 Speaker 1: early days there was a real sense of community where 289 00:17:16,276 --> 00:17:20,316 Speaker 1: everyone was working together for something that they loved and 290 00:17:20,516 --> 00:17:22,716 Speaker 1: like all of the artists on def Jam at the time, 291 00:17:23,116 --> 00:17:26,476 Speaker 1: we all felt like a family. And when it became 292 00:17:26,676 --> 00:17:31,436 Speaker 1: more competitive between the artists. I don't know, it shifted 293 00:17:31,436 --> 00:17:34,876 Speaker 1: away in popularity. Also, the people who started coming to 294 00:17:34,956 --> 00:17:37,916 Speaker 1: hip hop were not the people who had pure intention, 295 00:17:38,036 --> 00:17:40,836 Speaker 1: but just you know, people who thought, this is my 296 00:17:40,956 --> 00:17:44,596 Speaker 1: way of cashing in. That's exactly right. And it just 297 00:17:44,716 --> 00:17:47,236 Speaker 1: hit me later. I suppose then it hit you because 298 00:17:47,236 --> 00:17:49,556 Speaker 1: obviously I felt like I was a generation behind you, 299 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:51,756 Speaker 1: even though it was only four years behind you. Yeah, 300 00:17:51,796 --> 00:17:54,276 Speaker 1: it would be a hip hop generation behind though if 301 00:17:54,276 --> 00:17:56,516 Speaker 1: you think of it in terms of it's not necessarily 302 00:17:56,556 --> 00:17:59,436 Speaker 1: a number of years. It's kind of like by movement, right, 303 00:17:59,516 --> 00:18:03,116 Speaker 1: And so you came of age in this era. It 304 00:18:03,156 --> 00:18:06,156 Speaker 1: was like even before the advent of digital sampling. Absolutely, 305 00:18:06,316 --> 00:18:10,316 Speaker 1: you weren't sampling in the studio. There were no samplers 306 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:14,316 Speaker 1: with Nope. At the end, there were sampling, but we 307 00:18:14,476 --> 00:18:18,276 Speaker 1: never really embraced it because we had our other methods. 308 00:18:20,036 --> 00:18:22,036 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll 309 00:18:22,036 --> 00:18:29,156 Speaker 1: be back with more from Dan Charnis. We're back with 310 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:34,036 Speaker 1: Rick Rubens conversation with Dan Charnis. Tell me about the 311 00:18:34,236 --> 00:18:39,956 Speaker 1: Dila book. When did the idea come? This is a book. Okay, 312 00:18:40,276 --> 00:18:44,876 Speaker 1: So it begins when I am at American Recordings and 313 00:18:45,116 --> 00:18:48,156 Speaker 1: I've signed this artist named Gino Xcel, or actually I 314 00:18:48,196 --> 00:18:51,156 Speaker 1: signed the group that he belonged to, which is this 315 00:18:51,196 --> 00:18:53,156 Speaker 1: group called the Art of Origin out of New Jersey, 316 00:18:53,156 --> 00:18:58,236 Speaker 1: two guys, Gino Xcel and Kerry Chandler. Kerry was always 317 00:18:58,236 --> 00:19:01,036 Speaker 1: sort of not present enough. And one of the things 318 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:02,676 Speaker 1: I had to learn is an A and R person 319 00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:04,556 Speaker 1: that I didn't learn until too late, is it You 320 00:19:04,596 --> 00:19:06,796 Speaker 1: can't want it more than the artist. The artist has 321 00:19:06,836 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 1: to want it. And what Kerry wanted was a career 322 00:19:09,396 --> 00:19:11,716 Speaker 1: in house music and deep house, and he to this 323 00:19:11,796 --> 00:19:17,436 Speaker 1: day is one of the most lauded accomplished deep house 324 00:19:17,676 --> 00:19:21,236 Speaker 1: pioneers like he is seen that way. So he knew 325 00:19:21,276 --> 00:19:23,676 Speaker 1: his path. What we now had to figure out what 326 00:19:23,796 --> 00:19:26,716 Speaker 1: was what was the path for Chino Xcel. We really 327 00:19:26,756 --> 00:19:28,476 Speaker 1: didn't have much of a budget. We were kind of 328 00:19:28,476 --> 00:19:34,156 Speaker 1: doing things philosophically on a shoestring at at American, so 329 00:19:34,516 --> 00:19:39,076 Speaker 1: we sort of cobbled together that first album that actually 330 00:19:39,116 --> 00:19:41,556 Speaker 1: did better than most people thought it was going to do. 331 00:19:41,796 --> 00:19:44,236 Speaker 1: So we were ready to do the second album and 332 00:19:44,276 --> 00:19:46,436 Speaker 1: we had kind of a budget and this was going 333 00:19:46,516 --> 00:19:48,996 Speaker 1: to be now at Warner Brothers as American was moving 334 00:19:49,036 --> 00:19:52,116 Speaker 1: to Sony. We made a list of producers that we 335 00:19:52,156 --> 00:19:55,276 Speaker 1: wanted to work with, and one of those guys was 336 00:19:55,796 --> 00:19:58,916 Speaker 1: this kid named j d out of Detroit. So now 337 00:19:58,916 --> 00:20:01,116 Speaker 1: I'm going to wind the clock back a little bit 338 00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:05,276 Speaker 1: because there's a story there too. You remember, back at 339 00:20:05,356 --> 00:20:09,516 Speaker 1: Deaf American, the Far Side was a group that sort 340 00:20:09,556 --> 00:20:12,316 Speaker 1: of in our orbit and was signed by friends of 341 00:20:12,356 --> 00:20:14,796 Speaker 1: ours at Delicious Vinyl. And the Far Side did this 342 00:20:14,956 --> 00:20:18,556 Speaker 1: amazing first album and they were produced by this amazing 343 00:20:18,596 --> 00:20:21,916 Speaker 1: producer named Jay Swift. And then we found out that 344 00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:27,436 Speaker 1: Jay Swift was leaving the Far Side and I said, Rick, man, 345 00:20:27,676 --> 00:20:32,836 Speaker 1: this kid, he's great, right, And we were in a 346 00:20:32,956 --> 00:20:38,676 Speaker 1: bidding war with Tommy Boy to get Jay Swift's record label. 347 00:20:39,116 --> 00:20:41,276 Speaker 1: I remember you and I spent a day with Jay 348 00:20:41,316 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 1: Swift and his people and his artists, driving around listening 349 00:20:45,236 --> 00:20:48,276 Speaker 1: to music, visiting their house. And you didn't do a 350 00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:51,396 Speaker 1: lot of that, Rick, Like, I knew that that was special, 351 00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:52,956 Speaker 1: and I felt like you were doing that for me 352 00:20:53,276 --> 00:20:55,716 Speaker 1: in a way. I actually don't even remember it happened, 353 00:20:55,756 --> 00:20:57,676 Speaker 1: but I know that if I was there, I was 354 00:20:57,716 --> 00:21:00,156 Speaker 1: there because you believed in it and I was supporting you. 355 00:21:00,476 --> 00:21:03,396 Speaker 1: Oh you were man. So then at the end of 356 00:21:03,436 --> 00:21:09,476 Speaker 1: our day together, you very us sanely asked them, so 357 00:21:09,556 --> 00:21:12,756 Speaker 1: what are you looking for? Right? Finally came the business 358 00:21:12,836 --> 00:21:17,036 Speaker 1: question and Lamar Algie, who was working with Jay Swift 359 00:21:17,036 --> 00:21:21,196 Speaker 1: at time, he said a million dollars and we dropped 360 00:21:21,236 --> 00:21:24,956 Speaker 1: them off. We drove off, and we nearly got into 361 00:21:24,956 --> 00:21:28,156 Speaker 1: a car crash after we drove off because it was 362 00:21:28,196 --> 00:21:32,276 Speaker 1: just like more than we had ever paid really for anything. 363 00:21:32,356 --> 00:21:34,596 Speaker 1: And we knew at that moment that it just was 364 00:21:34,676 --> 00:21:38,276 Speaker 1: not going to happen. And so Tommy Boy got Jay 365 00:21:38,356 --> 00:21:40,876 Speaker 1: Swift and his record label, and that was probably a 366 00:21:40,916 --> 00:21:42,796 Speaker 1: blessing in disguise because that did not end up too 367 00:21:42,836 --> 00:21:46,036 Speaker 1: well for Jay Swift for them. But the other path 368 00:21:46,076 --> 00:21:48,396 Speaker 1: of that equation was what's the Far Side gonna do 369 00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:50,116 Speaker 1: now that Jay Swift's not with them? They did this 370 00:21:50,156 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 1: amazing album. This is their their musical voice. And I 371 00:21:54,316 --> 00:21:58,196 Speaker 1: remember asking Mike Ross, what's Far Side gonna do? He says, oh, no, 372 00:21:58,236 --> 00:22:00,876 Speaker 1: don't worry. We found this kid in Detroit named j D. 373 00:22:01,396 --> 00:22:05,436 Speaker 1: I said, Jay D Detroit. No hip hop has come 374 00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 1: out of Detroit's what you know the only thing we'd 375 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:09,716 Speaker 1: ever heard out of Detroit was all some dre and 376 00:22:09,716 --> 00:22:13,996 Speaker 1: the hardcore Committee from nineteen eighty eight, no conception that 377 00:22:14,076 --> 00:22:16,316 Speaker 1: there could be anything like that coming out of Detroit. 378 00:22:16,356 --> 00:22:19,116 Speaker 1: Of course, in ninety five when we heard the Far 379 00:22:19,196 --> 00:22:24,236 Speaker 1: Side second album, when we heard Running, immediately we all knew, 380 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:26,956 Speaker 1: like JD is it. So that is how I end 381 00:22:27,076 --> 00:22:32,396 Speaker 1: up flying to Detroit with Chino Excel in the summer 382 00:22:32,436 --> 00:22:35,956 Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety nine. It's my very first time in Detroit. 383 00:22:36,156 --> 00:22:38,996 Speaker 1: We drive out to his neighborhood of Conan Gardens. We 384 00:22:39,116 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 1: park outside his house, the very famous basement door, this 385 00:22:42,316 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: white door on the side of the house. We walked downstairs. 386 00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:49,996 Speaker 1: There's common sense. What's common sense doing here? He'd already 387 00:22:49,996 --> 00:22:53,276 Speaker 1: become common but I was still thinking, you know, I 388 00:22:53,316 --> 00:22:55,356 Speaker 1: didn't realize he was in the middle of making that 389 00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:58,956 Speaker 1: groundbreaking album like Water for Chocolate. We hung out, we 390 00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:02,436 Speaker 1: went to Mongolian barbecue, we went to the studio. It 391 00:23:02,556 --> 00:23:06,916 Speaker 1: was very It did not feel like history right, so 392 00:23:06,996 --> 00:23:11,076 Speaker 1: much so I brought my camera to Detroit and I 393 00:23:11,196 --> 00:23:13,836 Speaker 1: left it in the hotel room. What did I bring 394 00:23:13,836 --> 00:23:15,996 Speaker 1: my camera to Detroit to do? To take pictures of 395 00:23:16,076 --> 00:23:21,196 Speaker 1: us at the Motown Museum? Because I just didn't understand 396 00:23:21,716 --> 00:23:24,236 Speaker 1: that what I was witnessing in the basement was a 397 00:23:24,316 --> 00:23:29,636 Speaker 1: similar level of not just Detroit history, but music history. 398 00:23:29,956 --> 00:23:33,396 Speaker 1: I hadn't you know, I was a knucklehead. As your 399 00:23:33,476 --> 00:23:35,956 Speaker 1: former partner once said about me, he's smart, but he 400 00:23:35,996 --> 00:23:39,956 Speaker 1: don't know nothing. That's me smart but I don't know nothing. 401 00:23:40,396 --> 00:23:44,276 Speaker 1: So I didn't document it. And when we're at dinner together, 402 00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:47,036 Speaker 1: me and Cino together were like a comedy team. I'm 403 00:23:47,036 --> 00:23:49,796 Speaker 1: just talking, talking, talking, talking, and James just just listening 404 00:23:50,476 --> 00:23:53,036 Speaker 1: because that's who he was. He was a listener. He 405 00:23:53,116 --> 00:23:55,156 Speaker 1: was doing what I should have been doing. I should 406 00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:58,956 Speaker 1: have been listening. So over the many years later when 407 00:23:58,996 --> 00:24:00,596 Speaker 1: I started the book, I've had to make up for 408 00:24:00,636 --> 00:24:02,876 Speaker 1: the fact that I wasn't a good listener back in 409 00:24:02,956 --> 00:24:05,556 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine. So I know this is a long story. 410 00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:08,956 Speaker 1: But I get back to La we start mixing me 411 00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:12,716 Speaker 1: album and it is only then that I because when 412 00:24:12,716 --> 00:24:16,236 Speaker 1: you're mixing, you're listening to things on repeat. What's wrong 413 00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:19,396 Speaker 1: with those high hats? Are those? Are those high hats? 414 00:24:19,436 --> 00:24:23,596 Speaker 1: Swung drums are wrong? What's going on here? And I 415 00:24:23,636 --> 00:24:27,076 Speaker 1: literally took it into my digital audio workstation, my computer. 416 00:24:27,196 --> 00:24:30,916 Speaker 1: I lined up the wave form with the grid. I 417 00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:33,596 Speaker 1: measured where the where the high hats were and the 418 00:24:33,676 --> 00:24:39,236 Speaker 1: high hats were not swung. What is making them sound swung? Oh, 419 00:24:39,356 --> 00:24:42,036 Speaker 1: the snare is coming in early. The snare is coming 420 00:24:42,036 --> 00:24:45,556 Speaker 1: in before the backbeat. Why is he doing that? How 421 00:24:45,636 --> 00:24:48,716 Speaker 1: is he doing that? Why does it sound good? And 422 00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:52,116 Speaker 1: then suddenly you hear music that is not produced by 423 00:24:52,196 --> 00:24:54,836 Speaker 1: j D in the year two thousand and two thousand 424 00:24:54,876 --> 00:24:58,916 Speaker 1: and one. Suddenly that that rhythmic time feels everywhere. That 425 00:24:59,036 --> 00:25:01,356 Speaker 1: was the beginning of the realization for me, but it 426 00:25:01,396 --> 00:25:03,996 Speaker 1: didn't occur to me until I was a teacher many 427 00:25:04,076 --> 00:25:07,956 Speaker 1: years later at NYU that this could be something that 428 00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:10,676 Speaker 1: could be taught, and so I started teaching it as 429 00:25:10,716 --> 00:25:13,796 Speaker 1: a part of my regular music history course, and then 430 00:25:13,836 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 1: it became its own course. And one of the things 431 00:25:16,796 --> 00:25:18,636 Speaker 1: that we did when it became his own course was 432 00:25:18,716 --> 00:25:22,356 Speaker 1: that since nineteen ninety nine I had developed a personal 433 00:25:22,356 --> 00:25:26,396 Speaker 1: connection with Detroit. My wife is from Detroit. So nine 434 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:29,156 Speaker 1: years after JD, I go to Detroit for a second 435 00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:31,756 Speaker 1: time to meet my wife's family, and then I really 436 00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:35,996 Speaker 1: meet Detroit itself. So now I have a personal network 437 00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:39,476 Speaker 1: in Detroit. We're going to take twenty students from New 438 00:25:39,556 --> 00:25:42,436 Speaker 1: York and bring them to Detroit, incredible. We take him 439 00:25:42,436 --> 00:25:44,276 Speaker 1: to the Techno Museum. We're going to take him to 440 00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:46,116 Speaker 1: the Motown Museum. We're going to take him to the 441 00:25:46,196 --> 00:25:48,396 Speaker 1: former basement. We're going to introduce him to his family, 442 00:25:48,396 --> 00:25:52,076 Speaker 1: friends and collaborators. Dennis Coffee of the Funk Brothers gave 443 00:25:52,156 --> 00:25:54,436 Speaker 1: us a tour of the Motown Museum. Amazing. We went 444 00:25:54,476 --> 00:25:56,236 Speaker 1: on bus tours of the East Side and the West Side. 445 00:25:56,236 --> 00:25:58,916 Speaker 1: We talked to Pulitzer Prize willing comment it was it 446 00:25:58,956 --> 00:26:01,836 Speaker 1: was dope. It was dope. It was really really good. 447 00:26:01,836 --> 00:26:04,676 Speaker 1: And then we came back to New York and then 448 00:26:04,716 --> 00:26:07,276 Speaker 1: we met with like, you know, the usual suspects like 449 00:26:07,516 --> 00:26:11,356 Speaker 1: Questlove came through and Bob Power. And so that's when 450 00:26:11,356 --> 00:26:15,316 Speaker 1: I realized there really wasn't enough stuff that was musically 451 00:26:15,356 --> 00:26:19,596 Speaker 1: accurate that really explained what this guy did. And usually 452 00:26:20,116 --> 00:26:21,716 Speaker 1: if you're going to do a book, it starts with 453 00:26:21,756 --> 00:26:24,836 Speaker 1: a little bit of anger, like righteous anger, like I 454 00:26:24,956 --> 00:26:28,516 Speaker 1: keep Rundy MC didn't just pop on the charts by themselves, 455 00:26:28,516 --> 00:26:31,836 Speaker 1: Like this didn't just happen. Oh we need to talk 456 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:36,956 Speaker 1: about you know, Corey Robins, right, the same thing with Dila, 457 00:26:37,036 --> 00:26:41,036 Speaker 1: Like people acted like all Dilah did was turned off. 458 00:26:41,036 --> 00:26:43,876 Speaker 1: The quantized function, the timing correct function on his drum 459 00:26:43,876 --> 00:26:47,676 Speaker 1: machine just so made me so angry, you know, the 460 00:26:47,716 --> 00:26:50,876 Speaker 1: healthy anger, the anger that gets you motivated. Yeah, that 461 00:26:50,996 --> 00:26:53,876 Speaker 1: is my long witted story about how this book began. 462 00:26:54,676 --> 00:26:58,636 Speaker 1: How important do you think the family part, the bio 463 00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:03,196 Speaker 1: part of the story is for Dillah, Oh, it's integral. 464 00:27:03,556 --> 00:27:06,916 Speaker 1: We're either a continuation of our family or response to 465 00:27:06,956 --> 00:27:09,876 Speaker 1: what's going on on our family, or both. James was 466 00:27:09,916 --> 00:27:13,876 Speaker 1: the product of two musicians, people who love music, but 467 00:27:13,956 --> 00:27:18,356 Speaker 1: whose careers in music were truncated. So he carried that 468 00:27:18,796 --> 00:27:22,636 Speaker 1: with him. And he was also the product of this 469 00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 1: kind of raucous church environment, and he carried that with him. 470 00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:29,956 Speaker 1: He was also a product of popular culture, and in 471 00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:33,196 Speaker 1: particular particular kind of popular culture. I don't know, Rick, 472 00:27:33,236 --> 00:27:36,316 Speaker 1: if you've ever seen clips on YouTube of The Scene, 473 00:27:36,956 --> 00:27:39,156 Speaker 1: this is one of the things that my wife hit 474 00:27:39,196 --> 00:27:41,396 Speaker 1: me to. If you grew up in Detroit in the 475 00:27:41,476 --> 00:27:44,756 Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, there was this TV show on w GPR, 476 00:27:44,796 --> 00:27:47,316 Speaker 1: one of the only black owned TV stations in the country, 477 00:27:47,636 --> 00:27:50,796 Speaker 1: called The Scene, and it was like Soul Train on 478 00:27:51,156 --> 00:27:56,396 Speaker 1: steroids that you would not like. The dances on this 479 00:27:56,436 --> 00:28:00,676 Speaker 1: show are unbelievable, and that's what Detroitter's go up when 480 00:28:00,676 --> 00:28:03,076 Speaker 1: they grew up with the electrifying mojo right one of 481 00:28:03,116 --> 00:28:06,756 Speaker 1: the only guys in radio to play Prince right out 482 00:28:06,756 --> 00:28:09,676 Speaker 1: the gate. And one of my favorite moments in the 483 00:28:09,756 --> 00:28:13,196 Speaker 1: book is how I call it sort of Dilla's rosebud 484 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:18,236 Speaker 1: moment to use a Citizen Kane reference. He's watching this 485 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:22,476 Speaker 1: Sydney Potier Bill Cosby movie called Piece of the Action. 486 00:28:22,916 --> 00:28:25,916 Speaker 1: It was part of that trilogy, that Potier Cosby trilogy, 487 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:29,316 Speaker 1: every which way but loose that was that was Uptown 488 00:28:29,396 --> 00:28:32,796 Speaker 1: Saturday Night, Let's do it Again and Piece of the Action, 489 00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:36,996 Speaker 1: and like staple of black pop culture life in the 490 00:28:37,076 --> 00:28:40,956 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, and his family had the video cassette and 491 00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:43,236 Speaker 1: the Anti family had movie days where they would just 492 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:46,516 Speaker 1: sit around and watch movies all day. So I remember 493 00:28:46,596 --> 00:28:52,476 Speaker 1: hearing Jay Dilla only did probably twenty or less significant 494 00:28:52,476 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: interviews in his life. I was able to find you 495 00:28:55,476 --> 00:28:57,916 Speaker 1: sixteen of them for the book. And in an interview 496 00:28:57,956 --> 00:29:00,156 Speaker 1: that he did in two thousand and three with a 497 00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:04,436 Speaker 1: Swedish journalist, he just mentions offhand where he got his 498 00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:08,516 Speaker 1: loud and offbeat rhythmic sense from and he says, uh, 499 00:29:08,676 --> 00:29:10,396 Speaker 1: you know, I think I might have been thinking staple 500 00:29:10,476 --> 00:29:13,956 Speaker 1: singers piece of the action. I said, what, so there 501 00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:16,436 Speaker 1: is no song by the staple singers, but there's a 502 00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:18,276 Speaker 1: maybe a staple song, Pie said, And then I learn 503 00:29:18,316 --> 00:29:20,996 Speaker 1: it's part of this movie. But I listen to the song, Rick, 504 00:29:21,036 --> 00:29:24,676 Speaker 1: and there's nothing. Curtis Mayfield wrote it and produced it. 505 00:29:24,916 --> 00:29:28,516 Speaker 1: It's a straight ahead funk song. So it's all right, 506 00:29:28,556 --> 00:29:31,436 Speaker 1: you know what, I'll watch the movie, right, And so 507 00:29:31,476 --> 00:29:34,716 Speaker 1: I watched the whole thing. Theme song comes on. Nothing unusual. 508 00:29:34,996 --> 00:29:37,636 Speaker 1: We get to the very end of the movie and 509 00:29:37,716 --> 00:29:42,036 Speaker 1: there's a party at the end, and they pop a 510 00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:45,276 Speaker 1: cassette into it like a boombox, and they press play 511 00:29:45,356 --> 00:29:48,836 Speaker 1: and piece of the Action comes out, except this time 512 00:29:49,836 --> 00:29:53,156 Speaker 1: the crowd assembled are clapping, right because it's a party. 513 00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:55,636 Speaker 1: But you know, in film, you're not recording the claps 514 00:29:55,676 --> 00:29:59,476 Speaker 1: in the room. They actually added it as fully afterwards, 515 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:03,356 Speaker 1: and the claps are coming in and out of sync 516 00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:08,716 Speaker 1: with the music in ways that are sound completely artificial, 517 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:15,316 Speaker 1: completely machine driven. Yea. And you listen to it, Rick, 518 00:30:15,756 --> 00:30:18,916 Speaker 1: and it's like you're listening to voodoo right. You're listening 519 00:30:18,916 --> 00:30:23,476 Speaker 1: to Deangel's album yeah, years in the future, because Deangel's 520 00:30:23,476 --> 00:30:25,996 Speaker 1: album sounds that way because they're trying to sound like James. 521 00:30:26,636 --> 00:30:29,116 Speaker 1: And that was James moment where he's like, I want that, 522 00:30:29,796 --> 00:30:32,956 Speaker 1: I want that sound. That was my I don't know, 523 00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:38,596 Speaker 1: exciting moment. It's an incredible breakthrough discovery. It's a great 524 00:30:38,636 --> 00:30:42,836 Speaker 1: and I think at times that I've heard things where 525 00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:47,116 Speaker 1: the first time that I hear something, it's we'll call 526 00:30:47,196 --> 00:30:50,276 Speaker 1: it the wrong version, you know, a remix or something 527 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:53,916 Speaker 1: before you hear the regular version. Like the first time 528 00:30:53,956 --> 00:30:58,796 Speaker 1: I heard the remix of the Buster record with ODB. Yeah, 529 00:31:00,636 --> 00:31:04,156 Speaker 1: if you hear the regular record, it's a good Busta 530 00:31:04,236 --> 00:31:09,956 Speaker 1: Rhymes record, but the remix is insane, right, you know. 531 00:31:09,996 --> 00:31:13,116 Speaker 1: Funny Rick, because as I'm writing this book, I'm thinking 532 00:31:14,236 --> 00:31:17,396 Speaker 1: a lot about you, not just as a historical figure, 533 00:31:17,396 --> 00:31:23,276 Speaker 1: but also esthetically. There's this phrase that you used it 534 00:31:23,316 --> 00:31:25,116 Speaker 1: a bunch of times, but Hank Shockley said that he 535 00:31:25,196 --> 00:31:27,916 Speaker 1: got it from you, and it's this phrase, the worst shit. 536 00:31:28,236 --> 00:31:30,716 Speaker 1: Oh man, that's the worst shit. But what you really 537 00:31:30,756 --> 00:31:33,636 Speaker 1: mean it's the best shit, But it's the worst ship 538 00:31:33,716 --> 00:31:36,316 Speaker 1: because it's not supposed to be happening. You're not supposed 539 00:31:36,356 --> 00:31:39,956 Speaker 1: to go You're not supposed to throw a piece of 540 00:31:39,996 --> 00:31:42,436 Speaker 1: a record in on top of something, and it's not 541 00:31:42,436 --> 00:31:45,356 Speaker 1: supposed to sound that jarring or that bad. Like it's 542 00:31:45,356 --> 00:31:48,996 Speaker 1: the worst shit, but it's the best shit. And that 543 00:31:49,156 --> 00:31:51,836 Speaker 1: was j D. If you talk to his brother John 544 00:31:51,876 --> 00:31:54,796 Speaker 1: Ella j and ask him, well, what is that all about? 545 00:31:54,876 --> 00:31:57,476 Speaker 1: Why did James do this stuff? He said, we like shit, 546 00:31:57,556 --> 00:32:00,996 Speaker 1: this weird, We like shit, this sounds funny. There's a 547 00:32:01,036 --> 00:32:03,956 Speaker 1: great sense of we don't talk enough about humor in music. 548 00:32:04,076 --> 00:32:07,596 Speaker 1: Not ha ha funny, but just people doing shit that 549 00:32:07,716 --> 00:32:11,676 Speaker 1: just makes them laugh spontaneously. Yeah, it's the best, the 550 00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:17,316 Speaker 1: best things that you get to experience when serious can 551 00:32:17,436 --> 00:32:20,436 Speaker 1: make you laugh, just because it's so jarring and so 552 00:32:20,636 --> 00:32:25,436 Speaker 1: real that the response is laugh. I'm always looking for 553 00:32:25,516 --> 00:32:29,316 Speaker 1: the laughter when working on things. It's always a good sign. 554 00:32:29,596 --> 00:32:32,556 Speaker 1: John Karamonica The New York Times wrote an article and 555 00:32:32,596 --> 00:32:35,316 Speaker 1: I think it was either about you or about Kanye, 556 00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:38,676 Speaker 1: But it was a time when Kanye had come to 557 00:32:38,836 --> 00:32:40,716 Speaker 1: work with you to finish an album. It might have 558 00:32:40,716 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 1: been Jesus, I'm not I'm not sure. And John Karamonica 559 00:32:45,276 --> 00:32:48,156 Speaker 1: writes this where Rick walks out of the trailer. I 560 00:32:48,156 --> 00:32:49,996 Speaker 1: guess he was working in a trailer or something or 561 00:32:52,516 --> 00:32:56,756 Speaker 1: so Rick walks out, turns to the journalist, John says, 562 00:32:57,036 --> 00:33:01,156 Speaker 1: you would not believe what's going on in there. It's unbelievable. 563 00:33:03,076 --> 00:33:05,916 Speaker 1: But I heard it both ways. I heard it as 564 00:33:06,676 --> 00:33:10,436 Speaker 1: literally unbelievable, and then ill So heard it as oh man, 565 00:33:10,476 --> 00:33:14,116 Speaker 1: it's the worst shit you know. And I'm sure it 566 00:33:14,156 --> 00:33:18,036 Speaker 1: was both. It was probably both, oh man. J D J. 567 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:23,636 Speaker 1: Dilla is firmly in that esthetic of the worst shit 568 00:33:24,556 --> 00:33:27,716 Speaker 1: being the best shit. What was he a fan of? 569 00:33:27,836 --> 00:33:31,356 Speaker 1: What was his musical taste? He loved everything. He was 570 00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:35,356 Speaker 1: a master listener. He was a stutterer, speaking as risky 571 00:33:35,636 --> 00:33:40,636 Speaker 1: sometimes socially for people who stammer or stutter. So he 572 00:33:40,836 --> 00:33:46,036 Speaker 1: just cultivated listening and questlove. Amir talks about when James 573 00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:49,436 Speaker 1: would listen to records often what he would find a 574 00:33:49,476 --> 00:33:51,556 Speaker 1: sample would be at the very end of this long 575 00:33:51,596 --> 00:33:55,076 Speaker 1: ass seven minute song. But it's brilliant. He just had 576 00:33:55,116 --> 00:33:58,956 Speaker 1: the ability to listen into almost anything. And I think 577 00:33:59,316 --> 00:34:03,196 Speaker 1: we're really primarily talking jazz for a lot of the 578 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:07,236 Speaker 1: harmonic material, but he listened to progressive rock. One of 579 00:34:07,276 --> 00:34:10,596 Speaker 1: his most famous samples for Common is a Canterbury progressive 580 00:34:10,676 --> 00:34:14,876 Speaker 1: rock scene, Hugh Hopper and Alan Gowen right morning Order. 581 00:34:15,196 --> 00:34:18,756 Speaker 1: And he listened to electronic music, and he listened to funk, 582 00:34:18,836 --> 00:34:20,836 Speaker 1: and he listened to army. He was a He had 583 00:34:20,836 --> 00:34:23,436 Speaker 1: a record library like no other. That is one sensory 584 00:34:23,516 --> 00:34:26,476 Speaker 1: memory I have of the basement is walking through his 585 00:34:26,556 --> 00:34:29,596 Speaker 1: record collection. It was formidable. Do you feel like he 586 00:34:29,636 --> 00:34:33,876 Speaker 1: would listen to music for entertainment or purely to gather 587 00:34:34,076 --> 00:34:37,396 Speaker 1: content to make things? I think it's both, you know, 588 00:34:37,756 --> 00:34:40,916 Speaker 1: I mean, listening is a habit. The first question your 589 00:34:41,036 --> 00:34:44,076 Speaker 1: conversation starter for many years and maybe it still is 590 00:34:44,156 --> 00:34:46,156 Speaker 1: what are you listening to? That's what you would ask. 591 00:34:46,196 --> 00:34:49,996 Speaker 1: That's up such a brilliant, beautiful question to ask, what 592 00:34:50,036 --> 00:34:51,996 Speaker 1: are you listening to? Yeah? Well, I like to know, 593 00:34:52,116 --> 00:34:54,516 Speaker 1: you know, I want to learn about something I might 594 00:34:54,556 --> 00:34:56,636 Speaker 1: not know about, and I love listening to new things. 595 00:34:56,676 --> 00:35:00,596 Speaker 1: That are if someone who's taste I care about like something, 596 00:35:00,756 --> 00:35:04,076 Speaker 1: there's no better recommendation to give it a shot. But 597 00:35:04,116 --> 00:35:07,236 Speaker 1: it also strikes me is the best way to know somebody? Right? 598 00:35:07,916 --> 00:35:10,396 Speaker 1: What are you listening to? He listened to everything? Man, 599 00:35:10,836 --> 00:35:13,476 Speaker 1: How important do you think the technology that he was 600 00:35:13,596 --> 00:35:16,876 Speaker 1: using was to his sound completely? And this is where 601 00:35:16,876 --> 00:35:21,636 Speaker 1: we get into like countering all the misinformation my favorite part, 602 00:35:21,716 --> 00:35:25,196 Speaker 1: because again people are saying all JD did was to 603 00:35:25,276 --> 00:35:27,756 Speaker 1: not quantize, which for those of you who don't make beats, 604 00:35:27,756 --> 00:35:32,076 Speaker 1: it's just simply turning off the function that glues your 605 00:35:32,196 --> 00:35:36,516 Speaker 1: notes any errant note to a regular time grid. And 606 00:35:36,636 --> 00:35:39,396 Speaker 1: he did do that. He did not quantize certain things, 607 00:35:39,396 --> 00:35:43,076 Speaker 1: but he had two other really important techniques. The second 608 00:35:43,116 --> 00:35:46,516 Speaker 1: technique is what I called deceleration. When you take a 609 00:35:46,556 --> 00:35:49,476 Speaker 1: piece of music on a record and then you slow 610 00:35:49,516 --> 00:35:53,276 Speaker 1: it down, all of the tiny imperfections in human playing 611 00:35:53,356 --> 00:35:58,156 Speaker 1: elongate get bigger. And he loved that sound, right, So 612 00:35:58,316 --> 00:36:02,196 Speaker 1: a very fast high hat when he slows it down, 613 00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:07,436 Speaker 1: it's like the lopsidedness, the unevenness comes out. And so 614 00:36:07,596 --> 00:36:09,956 Speaker 1: that is the second way he used to play with time. 615 00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:12,116 Speaker 1: But the third way, and the one that leads to 616 00:36:12,156 --> 00:36:18,556 Speaker 1: the most distinctive break with the past, is because Roger 617 00:36:18,676 --> 00:36:23,116 Speaker 1: Lynn created this MPC drum machine in a certain way. 618 00:36:23,716 --> 00:36:28,116 Speaker 1: How can I describe it? As programmers we used essentially 619 00:36:28,156 --> 00:36:30,516 Speaker 1: there were two sort of major drum machines like coke 620 00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:34,076 Speaker 1: and pepsi, right, and the first one was the SP 621 00:36:34,196 --> 00:36:37,676 Speaker 1: twelve hundred and the second one was Roger Lynn's the MPC, 622 00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:41,316 Speaker 1: and both of them had this swing function on it 623 00:36:41,356 --> 00:36:43,636 Speaker 1: where you could take an even beat and make it uneven. 624 00:36:43,836 --> 00:36:45,796 Speaker 1: But the thing about the SP twelve hundred is when 625 00:36:45,796 --> 00:36:49,436 Speaker 1: you made the beats uneven, when you turn that swing function, 626 00:36:49,996 --> 00:36:52,796 Speaker 1: everything would swing together. Every element that you put in 627 00:36:52,836 --> 00:36:56,476 Speaker 1: there would be lopsided. But for whatever reason, and Roger 628 00:36:56,556 --> 00:36:58,716 Speaker 1: Lynn can't even say that there was a good reason 629 00:36:58,756 --> 00:37:02,516 Speaker 1: that he did this, he made it possible to swing 630 00:37:02,596 --> 00:37:06,716 Speaker 1: every track individually, so some could be straight, some could 631 00:37:06,716 --> 00:37:09,996 Speaker 1: be swung, some could be swung and shifted right. I 632 00:37:10,036 --> 00:37:12,236 Speaker 1: mean you could pull it things a little earlier or 633 00:37:12,316 --> 00:37:16,036 Speaker 1: push them a little later. That wasn't possible like that. 634 00:37:16,196 --> 00:37:20,876 Speaker 1: On the SP around nineteen ninety eight, you hear him 635 00:37:20,876 --> 00:37:25,996 Speaker 1: playing with this function, but in a really exaggerated way. 636 00:37:26,916 --> 00:37:30,236 Speaker 1: Arthur Jafa of the very famous visual artist, he calls 637 00:37:30,236 --> 00:37:32,876 Speaker 1: it misusing the equipment. Let's say that one of his 638 00:37:32,956 --> 00:37:35,316 Speaker 1: signatures is to make the snare come I don't know, 639 00:37:35,436 --> 00:37:39,516 Speaker 1: sixty five milliseconds too early before the backbeat, and that 640 00:37:39,556 --> 00:37:42,596 Speaker 1: creates a long, short, long, short pattern between the kick 641 00:37:42,596 --> 00:37:46,316 Speaker 1: and the snare, which clashes then in like small ways 642 00:37:46,316 --> 00:37:48,756 Speaker 1: like Princess in the pee kind of ways with the 643 00:37:48,836 --> 00:37:51,356 Speaker 1: high hat which is straight, and then he's got these 644 00:37:51,396 --> 00:37:55,076 Speaker 1: decelerated samples flying in and then he's got some unquantized 645 00:37:55,116 --> 00:38:00,076 Speaker 1: bass and it's a mess. It's the worst shit, but 646 00:38:00,236 --> 00:38:06,516 Speaker 1: it's exhilarating. But it represents an advance, I argue for 647 00:38:06,596 --> 00:38:11,276 Speaker 1: those who care about these things. Theory was, but what 648 00:38:11,356 --> 00:38:13,196 Speaker 1: Jay Diller did was he put them on top of 649 00:38:13,196 --> 00:38:17,236 Speaker 1: each other simultaneously together. That's like what I wanted to accomplish. 650 00:38:17,276 --> 00:38:19,196 Speaker 1: That was the thing that nobody was getting. Like, Yo, 651 00:38:19,556 --> 00:38:22,916 Speaker 1: this is a kind of advance in rhythm that only 652 00:38:22,956 --> 00:38:27,236 Speaker 1: happens like in once in a hundred years, and everybody 653 00:38:27,236 --> 00:38:31,756 Speaker 1: in the world is now using this Anderson Pok, Robert 654 00:38:31,796 --> 00:38:37,676 Speaker 1: glasper Hiatus Coyote, Kendrick Lamar, but nobody's drawing it back 655 00:38:37,716 --> 00:38:42,316 Speaker 1: to its source. So this was my attempt to do that. Yeah, 656 00:38:42,396 --> 00:38:47,396 Speaker 1: I would say that it may have happened before Jay Dilla, 657 00:38:47,556 --> 00:38:51,716 Speaker 1: but it wouldn't have happened with one person. So it 658 00:38:51,796 --> 00:38:54,436 Speaker 1: may have been the way two or three or a 659 00:38:54,476 --> 00:39:00,996 Speaker 1: group of players played, whatever their own inconsistencies were when 660 00:39:01,076 --> 00:39:05,116 Speaker 1: they played together. That you know, if the drummer was 661 00:39:05,236 --> 00:39:08,156 Speaker 1: leaning forward and if the bass player was leaning back 662 00:39:08,316 --> 00:39:11,876 Speaker 1: on the groove, and if there was a percussion player 663 00:39:12,476 --> 00:39:17,156 Speaker 1: who didn't really keep such great time, you know, playing along, 664 00:39:17,196 --> 00:39:19,716 Speaker 1: like trying to glue it together, like you could get 665 00:39:19,756 --> 00:39:23,116 Speaker 1: these moments where it's one of the things that the 666 00:39:23,156 --> 00:39:26,276 Speaker 1: way I think about it, I know about the Voodoo 667 00:39:26,316 --> 00:39:30,676 Speaker 1: album first, before Dillah, I didn't know about Dillah. My 668 00:39:30,756 --> 00:39:35,796 Speaker 1: first experience of that feeling came in the Voodoo album, 669 00:39:35,796 --> 00:39:38,396 Speaker 1: which is to this day one of my very favorite albums. 670 00:39:38,796 --> 00:39:43,196 Speaker 1: And so now when I hear Dilla, it reminds me 671 00:39:43,316 --> 00:39:46,516 Speaker 1: of Voodoo. But for me, it's not better than Voodoo, 672 00:39:46,556 --> 00:39:48,556 Speaker 1: because again, that was my way in my way in 673 00:39:48,676 --> 00:39:52,756 Speaker 1: was Voodoo, And in that case, it always feels like 674 00:39:52,796 --> 00:39:56,356 Speaker 1: it's right on the verge of falling apart, but it's 675 00:39:56,396 --> 00:39:58,996 Speaker 1: not doing it because of the way it's technically made. 676 00:39:59,116 --> 00:40:01,556 Speaker 1: It's the way they're playing it, but they're playing it 677 00:40:01,596 --> 00:40:06,396 Speaker 1: to sound like Dyla's grooves. Yeah, And don't get me wrong, 678 00:40:06,476 --> 00:40:11,556 Speaker 1: there are plenty of precedence in music for both conflict 679 00:40:11,596 --> 00:40:15,676 Speaker 1: between straight and swung and micro rhythmic conflict like in 680 00:40:15,756 --> 00:40:18,476 Speaker 1: hip hop. The Rizza did not smooth out the edges 681 00:40:18,516 --> 00:40:21,676 Speaker 1: of things. So when he sampled substitution, right, it wasn't 682 00:40:21,716 --> 00:40:23,556 Speaker 1: quite lined up with the grid, so you do get 683 00:40:23,556 --> 00:40:26,156 Speaker 1: this kind of lopsided thing that clashes with other things. 684 00:40:26,156 --> 00:40:29,116 Speaker 1: But it was not like it wasn't like a governing aesthetic. 685 00:40:29,156 --> 00:40:33,036 Speaker 1: He wasn't trying. It wasn't an intention so much. And 686 00:40:33,076 --> 00:40:34,956 Speaker 1: I know that's a funny word to use, right, No, 687 00:40:35,076 --> 00:40:37,716 Speaker 1: it's true. It's not the grand gesture of the work, 688 00:40:37,916 --> 00:40:39,516 Speaker 1: and it's not in all of his work. It's on 689 00:40:39,556 --> 00:40:43,716 Speaker 1: occasion funny though. Rick. One of the occurrences of this 690 00:40:43,796 --> 00:40:46,756 Speaker 1: sort of coming in and out of sync again not 691 00:40:46,956 --> 00:40:52,876 Speaker 1: necessarily intentional, but something that even Questlove noticed was our 692 00:40:52,956 --> 00:40:57,556 Speaker 1: record with the Nons World Ultimate, because they used a 693 00:40:57,876 --> 00:41:03,316 Speaker 1: sequencer that sometimes lagged behind the simpty that was on 694 00:41:03,356 --> 00:41:06,476 Speaker 1: the tape. So you'll get these moments on this album 695 00:41:06,556 --> 00:41:11,836 Speaker 1: World Ultimate where things are and then it releases and 696 00:41:12,676 --> 00:41:17,436 Speaker 1: it's weird like that was where we were in nineteen 697 00:41:17,516 --> 00:41:20,396 Speaker 1: ninety five. But again it was not intentional as sort 698 00:41:20,436 --> 00:41:23,476 Speaker 1: of result. Also, if you listen to Tutti FRUITI like 699 00:41:23,676 --> 00:41:26,676 Speaker 1: the drummer is swinging and little Richard is banging out 700 00:41:26,676 --> 00:41:28,556 Speaker 1: straight eights at the beginning of the song before they 701 00:41:28,636 --> 00:41:30,876 Speaker 1: kind of come in line with each other. These things 702 00:41:30,916 --> 00:41:35,836 Speaker 1: have existed before. I guess the reason that I'm going 703 00:41:35,876 --> 00:41:40,116 Speaker 1: so linguistically hard for Dilah is not so much the 704 00:41:40,156 --> 00:41:43,876 Speaker 1: hero worship of it or to locate it in this 705 00:41:44,036 --> 00:41:47,596 Speaker 1: one guy, but to say, the reason that music sounds 706 00:41:47,636 --> 00:41:50,476 Speaker 1: the way it does today is because all these people 707 00:41:50,516 --> 00:41:54,596 Speaker 1: are tracing their own musical rhythmic conflict back to what 708 00:41:54,836 --> 00:41:58,596 Speaker 1: he did. Absolutely no question. As you say in the book, 709 00:41:58,836 --> 00:42:01,396 Speaker 1: there was music before Dylan. There's music after Dilah, and 710 00:42:01,436 --> 00:42:04,636 Speaker 1: it's different. We'll be right back with more from Dan 711 00:42:04,716 --> 00:42:11,756 Speaker 1: Charnis after the break. We'll be right back with more 712 00:42:11,836 --> 00:42:16,636 Speaker 1: from Dan Charness after the break. So you started in Detroit. 713 00:42:16,756 --> 00:42:19,276 Speaker 1: Was that where the research began. Yeah, I mean it 714 00:42:19,396 --> 00:42:24,516 Speaker 1: started literally with that first trip and then my second trip. 715 00:42:24,636 --> 00:42:27,036 Speaker 1: You know, my wife, my then girlfriend says to me, 716 00:42:27,076 --> 00:42:28,996 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take you into Detroit. I'm going to show 717 00:42:29,036 --> 00:42:32,596 Speaker 1: you Detroit, but show me the physical layout of Detroit, 718 00:42:32,676 --> 00:42:35,556 Speaker 1: show me the pieces of history that made it. You know. 719 00:42:35,836 --> 00:42:38,196 Speaker 1: You know from the book, it's a really really interesting 720 00:42:38,236 --> 00:42:40,956 Speaker 1: story and it's a metaphor. It's literally a physical metaphor 721 00:42:40,996 --> 00:42:44,916 Speaker 1: for what happened there. The map bears traces of all 722 00:42:44,916 --> 00:42:49,556 Speaker 1: of that stuff, the matrix of culture that created motown, 723 00:42:49,716 --> 00:42:52,716 Speaker 1: all that genius, right, you know, it began with that 724 00:42:52,796 --> 00:42:56,516 Speaker 1: and then intensified with the class began to make friends 725 00:42:56,556 --> 00:43:00,956 Speaker 1: with Dillah's friends in Detroit, with his family. And the 726 00:43:00,996 --> 00:43:03,796 Speaker 1: other helpful thing was that when Dilla moved to Los 727 00:43:03,796 --> 00:43:07,356 Speaker 1: Angeles for the last two years of his life, he 728 00:43:07,396 --> 00:43:10,236 Speaker 1: became friends with my friends, Like all the people that 729 00:43:10,276 --> 00:43:13,516 Speaker 1: I knew, Brian Cross and Eric Coleman and Ret Maddock 730 00:43:13,516 --> 00:43:16,236 Speaker 1: and the beat junkies and c minus those are my peeps, 731 00:43:16,236 --> 00:43:20,436 Speaker 1: like my homies. So I felt like I had that 732 00:43:20,556 --> 00:43:22,876 Speaker 1: network too. One of the things that seems to be 733 00:43:22,916 --> 00:43:26,476 Speaker 1: a big theme of the book, unintentionally but interestingly, it's 734 00:43:26,516 --> 00:43:29,596 Speaker 1: about regional hip hop. Talk about how hip hop was 735 00:43:30,116 --> 00:43:34,716 Speaker 1: her regional endeavor at that point in time and what 736 00:43:34,836 --> 00:43:37,636 Speaker 1: it meant to be from a place like Detroit. Well, 737 00:43:37,796 --> 00:43:40,796 Speaker 1: hip hop started as regional because New York is a region, right. 738 00:43:40,876 --> 00:43:43,756 Speaker 1: New York is actually a very insular region. Nothing else 739 00:43:43,836 --> 00:43:47,196 Speaker 1: in the country sounds like New York. But because New 740 00:43:47,236 --> 00:43:50,156 Speaker 1: York is New York, it has this overweening influence on 741 00:43:50,236 --> 00:43:53,676 Speaker 1: everything else. As hip hop made its way out like 742 00:43:53,796 --> 00:44:00,356 Speaker 1: first to Philadelphia, then the Los Angeles, right, locals have 743 00:44:00,476 --> 00:44:04,036 Speaker 1: their own culture, so they pull certain things from hip 744 00:44:04,076 --> 00:44:06,756 Speaker 1: hop culture and then sort of stick with them. So 745 00:44:06,956 --> 00:44:11,716 Speaker 1: Miami built hip hop culture at a time when you 746 00:44:11,956 --> 00:44:15,836 Speaker 1: Rick were producing things like License to Ill. So it 747 00:44:15,916 --> 00:44:19,476 Speaker 1: was a very t R eight o eight driven kind 748 00:44:19,556 --> 00:44:24,356 Speaker 1: of sound that became Miami bass, almost like still Born. 749 00:44:24,836 --> 00:44:26,956 Speaker 1: And that sounds very unfair to Miami bass, but it's 750 00:44:26,956 --> 00:44:29,516 Speaker 1: like it just it zoned in on that one part 751 00:44:29,516 --> 00:44:33,676 Speaker 1: of hip hop, and the South loved Houston, Atlanta, Miami, 752 00:44:34,076 --> 00:44:37,196 Speaker 1: Memphis all love that deep eight o eight sound because 753 00:44:37,516 --> 00:44:40,756 Speaker 1: it's car culture. What better to bump in your car 754 00:44:40,836 --> 00:44:43,676 Speaker 1: than something that's like hugely bass driven. Mammi bass is 755 00:44:43,716 --> 00:44:46,636 Speaker 1: also fast and like a song like Brass Monkey is 756 00:44:46,716 --> 00:44:50,196 Speaker 1: really quintessentially what we think of as Miami bass, even 757 00:44:50,236 --> 00:44:53,676 Speaker 1: though there wasn't such a thing then. It's very bizarre 758 00:44:53,796 --> 00:44:56,756 Speaker 1: when I tell my students about trap is sort of 759 00:44:56,796 --> 00:44:59,596 Speaker 1: the dominant hip hop sound a day, but it really trap. 760 00:45:00,036 --> 00:45:02,236 Speaker 1: It all kind of points back to License to Ill. 761 00:45:02,396 --> 00:45:06,596 Speaker 1: For me, that change in hip hop sound very much 762 00:45:06,716 --> 00:45:09,756 Speaker 1: is reflected in what the dominant sound of about this today. 763 00:45:09,796 --> 00:45:12,076 Speaker 1: But you know, Los Angeles had its own take on 764 00:45:12,196 --> 00:45:14,556 Speaker 1: hip hop, which was very sort of electronic and also 765 00:45:14,716 --> 00:45:17,276 Speaker 1: funk driven like p funk, because that was the style 766 00:45:17,316 --> 00:45:24,556 Speaker 1: out there. Detroit was interesting. Detroitters loved West Coast hip hop, 767 00:45:25,116 --> 00:45:29,476 Speaker 1: but there's this island of East Coast centric hip hop 768 00:45:29,516 --> 00:45:32,236 Speaker 1: fans in Detroit who have their own little singular culture. 769 00:45:32,516 --> 00:45:36,916 Speaker 1: So Detroit is not producing the stuff that most Detroitters like. 770 00:45:37,796 --> 00:45:42,516 Speaker 1: This culture that emerges around this Chinese restaurant called Stanley 771 00:45:42,556 --> 00:45:46,116 Speaker 1: Hangs Manua Cafe, which is called the Rhythm Kitchen, and 772 00:45:46,156 --> 00:45:48,316 Speaker 1: then the hip Hop Shop where Eminem comes out of, 773 00:45:48,796 --> 00:45:51,956 Speaker 1: Proof comes out of you know, it's very insular again, 774 00:45:52,196 --> 00:45:55,676 Speaker 1: and they felt like they couldn't even get much attention 775 00:45:55,796 --> 00:46:01,356 Speaker 1: from Detroit radio and didn't. The whole bridge to radio 776 00:46:02,036 --> 00:46:04,676 Speaker 1: with hip hop is interesting because for a long time 777 00:46:04,756 --> 00:46:08,436 Speaker 1: it was just not welcome. It was beneath the radio 778 00:46:08,636 --> 00:46:12,316 Speaker 1: standard of what they played. That is still to me 779 00:46:12,636 --> 00:46:16,076 Speaker 1: a great story. Essentially, one of the only reasons that 780 00:46:16,396 --> 00:46:19,916 Speaker 1: hip hop got to where it was on New York radio, 781 00:46:20,676 --> 00:46:24,916 Speaker 1: the birthplace of hip hop, is because two program directors 782 00:46:24,956 --> 00:46:28,476 Speaker 1: hated each other so much that one was willing to 783 00:46:28,476 --> 00:46:32,116 Speaker 1: play a music that they hated. These run DMC records 784 00:46:32,716 --> 00:46:35,996 Speaker 1: to try to grab Frankie Crocker's audience away from him. 785 00:46:37,916 --> 00:46:40,636 Speaker 1: You know, it's crazy, but that's how it happens sometimes. 786 00:46:40,636 --> 00:46:44,236 Speaker 1: Sometimes a lot of history is just personality driven. But 787 00:46:44,316 --> 00:46:46,316 Speaker 1: it was hard because when you're doing a book like this, 788 00:46:46,476 --> 00:46:51,636 Speaker 1: especially with a community that is wounded and protective, it 789 00:46:51,676 --> 00:46:55,476 Speaker 1: takes time to win the trust of folks and to 790 00:46:55,596 --> 00:46:58,596 Speaker 1: keep it and to let them know that they were 791 00:46:58,676 --> 00:47:02,876 Speaker 1: right to trust you. Part of that for me is 792 00:47:03,276 --> 00:47:07,116 Speaker 1: when I interview folks and I write, I read back 793 00:47:07,116 --> 00:47:10,996 Speaker 1: to them the sections that concern their thoughts, feelings and actions. Beautiful, 794 00:47:11,036 --> 00:47:12,636 Speaker 1: And I know that there's some journalists who do not 795 00:47:12,716 --> 00:47:14,196 Speaker 1: do that because they do not want to give up 796 00:47:14,236 --> 00:47:17,436 Speaker 1: any sense of control. Yeah, that's beauty material. Love that 797 00:47:17,716 --> 00:47:20,436 Speaker 1: it works. Was there any point in the reading back 798 00:47:20,516 --> 00:47:24,156 Speaker 1: where an interview he said, I don't exactly mean it 799 00:47:24,236 --> 00:47:28,116 Speaker 1: like that. You may want to change a lot, And 800 00:47:28,236 --> 00:47:31,516 Speaker 1: that's why I do it because I make mistakes all 801 00:47:31,636 --> 00:47:35,036 Speaker 1: the time, and I want to catch every single one. 802 00:47:35,116 --> 00:47:37,796 Speaker 1: That's my virgo nature. I want to catch every single one. 803 00:47:37,836 --> 00:47:40,196 Speaker 1: And believe there's still some mistakes. I'm still compiling like 804 00:47:40,196 --> 00:47:42,796 Speaker 1: a little errata of things that need to be changed. 805 00:47:42,796 --> 00:47:45,196 Speaker 1: For the paperback then not a lot, but you know, 806 00:47:46,156 --> 00:47:50,836 Speaker 1: they're all important. But mostly when I would read back, 807 00:47:50,956 --> 00:47:53,956 Speaker 1: people would say, yeah, you got that right, Like wow, yah, 808 00:47:53,956 --> 00:47:56,796 Speaker 1: you got that right. That's exactly how it happened. Even 809 00:47:56,836 --> 00:47:59,436 Speaker 1: in areas of conflict. There is a There is a 810 00:47:59,476 --> 00:48:05,436 Speaker 1: moment in the book where very famous Detroit DJ is 811 00:48:05,476 --> 00:48:10,596 Speaker 1: literally struck by another Detroit pop figure, you know, in 812 00:48:10,636 --> 00:48:15,596 Speaker 1: a public place, and very embarrassing, you know, for the 813 00:48:15,596 --> 00:48:18,876 Speaker 1: person who's being struck, and somewhat embarrassing for the person 814 00:48:18,916 --> 00:48:22,596 Speaker 1: who's doing the striking. Right, But both of them said, 815 00:48:22,596 --> 00:48:24,556 Speaker 1: when I read that section back to them, that's the 816 00:48:24,596 --> 00:48:27,396 Speaker 1: way it happened, and that there's a certain amount of 817 00:48:27,396 --> 00:48:30,196 Speaker 1: healing that comes from there. Does that make sense. Yeah, 818 00:48:30,236 --> 00:48:33,156 Speaker 1: it's there's an acceptance and it's it's set out loud. 819 00:48:33,916 --> 00:48:37,916 Speaker 1: It's like it's been aired and there's the reality of 820 00:48:37,916 --> 00:48:41,796 Speaker 1: the situation and acknowledging it and it's not a personal 821 00:48:41,836 --> 00:48:45,276 Speaker 1: secret anymore, or it's dealt with and now we can 822 00:48:45,316 --> 00:48:49,156 Speaker 1: move past. It seems great. Perhaps it's naive of me 823 00:48:49,236 --> 00:48:51,076 Speaker 1: to feel this way, but I hope that there is 824 00:48:51,076 --> 00:48:53,876 Speaker 1: some healing that happens in this community. It's hard, it's 825 00:48:53,916 --> 00:48:58,076 Speaker 1: hard when somebody dies, as you know, it's hard dealing 826 00:48:58,276 --> 00:49:01,476 Speaker 1: with the mess that that person has left behind and 827 00:49:01,596 --> 00:49:05,876 Speaker 1: the conflicts that that causes, and sometimes it takes years 828 00:49:05,956 --> 00:49:09,596 Speaker 1: to come back from it, and their families were they 829 00:49:09,636 --> 00:49:13,476 Speaker 1: never heal after that moment. But my hope is that 830 00:49:13,756 --> 00:49:18,396 Speaker 1: when you're in an argument with somebody, usually the point 831 00:49:18,476 --> 00:49:22,476 Speaker 1: the argument ends and the healing begins when you finally 832 00:49:23,236 --> 00:49:25,716 Speaker 1: get an answer to what the other person was thinking, 833 00:49:25,756 --> 00:49:27,436 Speaker 1: What were you thinking when you said that to me? 834 00:49:28,716 --> 00:49:31,876 Speaker 1: And when they finally tell you, that's when you can 835 00:49:31,916 --> 00:49:33,956 Speaker 1: move past it. I'm hoping, I guess I'm just what 836 00:49:34,036 --> 00:49:36,316 Speaker 1: I'm saying, is I hoping that the book does that 837 00:49:36,396 --> 00:49:39,316 Speaker 1: in some way. It's at least as close as you 838 00:49:39,316 --> 00:49:43,076 Speaker 1: can get. Now. Even with that said, how often do 839 00:49:43,476 --> 00:49:47,916 Speaker 1: different versions of the same story come from different people 840 00:49:48,116 --> 00:49:52,876 Speaker 1: and either not match exactly or in some cases they 841 00:49:52,876 --> 00:49:56,716 Speaker 1: oppose each other? How often? Very often? And if you 842 00:49:56,756 --> 00:49:59,116 Speaker 1: interview two hundred people, your odds are you're going to 843 00:49:59,196 --> 00:50:03,356 Speaker 1: find the truth. There are certain things that I kind 844 00:50:03,356 --> 00:50:06,196 Speaker 1: of feel what the truth is, but I have not 845 00:50:06,236 --> 00:50:08,756 Speaker 1: been able to I can't literally say, like the of course, 846 00:50:08,796 --> 00:50:12,356 Speaker 1: the very famous story of who produced this Janet Jackson 847 00:50:12,476 --> 00:50:16,476 Speaker 1: song Got Till It's Gone. I really believe that Terry 848 00:50:16,516 --> 00:50:19,076 Speaker 1: Lewis and Jimmy jam produced that song. There are still 849 00:50:19,076 --> 00:50:23,876 Speaker 1: folks who will not believe it, despite the lack of 850 00:50:23,876 --> 00:50:26,556 Speaker 1: evidence for that. Did you talk to Jimmy and Terry. 851 00:50:26,756 --> 00:50:28,436 Speaker 1: I didn't talk to Jimmy and Terry, but I talked 852 00:50:28,476 --> 00:50:31,596 Speaker 1: to the person who literally programmed the machine that that 853 00:50:31,956 --> 00:50:33,836 Speaker 1: was on, because Jimmy and Terry were on the record 854 00:50:34,356 --> 00:50:38,636 Speaker 1: already very clearly, so I focused on, you know, the 855 00:50:38,716 --> 00:50:41,396 Speaker 1: hands on people, so to speak. I truly believe that 856 00:50:41,436 --> 00:50:44,236 Speaker 1: they produced the song. But then that really makes the 857 00:50:44,276 --> 00:50:47,036 Speaker 1: book more interesting to me, the story more interesting. Why 858 00:50:47,076 --> 00:50:50,356 Speaker 1: would James lie? Why would he say he produced this 859 00:50:50,396 --> 00:50:52,596 Speaker 1: song and didn't. And that has a lot to do 860 00:50:53,396 --> 00:50:57,756 Speaker 1: with not only his own struggles to become known and 861 00:50:57,876 --> 00:51:00,116 Speaker 1: to get credit and to make a name for himself, 862 00:51:00,116 --> 00:51:03,836 Speaker 1: but also his family's story because his father had a 863 00:51:03,956 --> 00:51:07,996 Speaker 1: very similar story. It's a shame by the spinners claim 864 00:51:08,076 --> 00:51:11,676 Speaker 1: that he wrote it. Nobody in Motown confirms the story 865 00:51:12,156 --> 00:51:15,476 Speaker 1: people having heard of him. It's hard, you know, especially 866 00:51:15,476 --> 00:51:17,556 Speaker 1: because it's family myth. And I felt some kind of 867 00:51:17,596 --> 00:51:21,676 Speaker 1: way about poking at family myths and it's interesting, really interesting, 868 00:51:21,916 --> 00:51:27,156 Speaker 1: and it's true that all he had to model was 869 00:51:27,196 --> 00:51:30,876 Speaker 1: that behavior. So you know, like that would make sense, 870 00:51:30,956 --> 00:51:35,196 Speaker 1: Like if you grew up seeing this behavior, you think 871 00:51:35,276 --> 00:51:38,076 Speaker 1: that's how you deal with that situation. You know. I 872 00:51:38,116 --> 00:51:42,276 Speaker 1: think about him in that moment where you know the 873 00:51:42,316 --> 00:51:45,556 Speaker 1: story of JD. For folks who don't know, he was 874 00:51:45,676 --> 00:51:49,236 Speaker 1: essentially plucked out of obscurity. He was just a beatmaker 875 00:51:49,236 --> 00:51:53,636 Speaker 1: in Detroit until one of George Clinton's band members, Aunt Fiddler, 876 00:51:53,676 --> 00:51:58,156 Speaker 1: introduced James to Q Tip, who was the lead producer 877 00:51:58,156 --> 00:52:02,436 Speaker 1: and vocalist for Tribe Call Quests. So q Tip literally 878 00:52:03,676 --> 00:52:07,076 Speaker 1: takes this guy out of Detroit, introduces him to everybody 879 00:52:07,596 --> 00:52:12,756 Speaker 1: buster rhymes, delas soul, mad skills the far side. He 880 00:52:12,916 --> 00:52:16,596 Speaker 1: makes him essentially like a member of a Tribe Call 881 00:52:16,716 --> 00:52:19,596 Speaker 1: Quest and he doesn't ask for anything for q Tip 882 00:52:19,636 --> 00:52:22,156 Speaker 1: did not ask for anything. But what he did propose 883 00:52:22,276 --> 00:52:25,076 Speaker 1: is that James become a part of this collective called 884 00:52:25,076 --> 00:52:28,356 Speaker 1: the Uma, the Brotherhood, and it's supposed to be JD, 885 00:52:28,876 --> 00:52:32,436 Speaker 1: q Tip, Ali, Raphael Sadiq, and this guy named Michael 886 00:52:32,556 --> 00:52:36,316 Speaker 1: Archer from Virginia who we now know as D'Angelo. The 887 00:52:36,516 --> 00:52:38,796 Speaker 1: idea behind the Uma is the same idea behind a 888 00:52:38,836 --> 00:52:41,116 Speaker 1: tribe call quest. We do all the work, but we 889 00:52:41,196 --> 00:52:44,436 Speaker 1: credit it to the collective. Right, and this is how 890 00:52:44,516 --> 00:52:47,716 Speaker 1: other things were done, like the Hitman and the track Masters, 891 00:52:47,956 --> 00:52:52,556 Speaker 1: the dust Brothers. Right. But JD felt, and I think rightly, 892 00:52:53,156 --> 00:52:56,596 Speaker 1: he felt truncated by this. Right. He felt like he 893 00:52:56,636 --> 00:52:59,436 Speaker 1: couldn't make a name for himself, that the literal structure 894 00:53:00,236 --> 00:53:04,316 Speaker 1: that his mentor had created had bottled him up. And 895 00:53:04,356 --> 00:53:07,236 Speaker 1: then he's beginning to see other people in the world 896 00:53:07,356 --> 00:53:10,116 Speaker 1: use his sound and his rhythm sick mares, and he 897 00:53:10,156 --> 00:53:14,796 Speaker 1: can't even be himself. But how do you tell your mentor, 898 00:53:15,716 --> 00:53:18,236 Speaker 1: the guy who's plucked you out of obscurity, that you 899 00:53:18,316 --> 00:53:21,436 Speaker 1: don't want to be in business with him. It took 900 00:53:21,476 --> 00:53:26,036 Speaker 1: him years, four years to have that conversation, and in 901 00:53:26,076 --> 00:53:30,516 Speaker 1: the meantime he did passive aggressive things. And I believe 902 00:53:30,596 --> 00:53:33,236 Speaker 1: that the claiming the ownership of God to what's gone 903 00:53:33,356 --> 00:53:36,956 Speaker 1: was one of those things. But I understand it. I 904 00:53:36,956 --> 00:53:39,836 Speaker 1: don't think any less of James for it. He's a product, 905 00:53:39,836 --> 00:53:43,076 Speaker 1: like you said, of everything that he grew up with. Yeah, 906 00:53:43,076 --> 00:53:45,876 Speaker 1: who would you say of everyone you spoke to? Was 907 00:53:45,916 --> 00:53:50,876 Speaker 1: the most helpful interview for the book by I mean everybody. 908 00:53:51,076 --> 00:53:54,796 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously his mother and Marine was very helpful, 909 00:53:55,116 --> 00:53:58,156 Speaker 1: but the mother of his youngest child, joy Let Hunter, 910 00:53:58,276 --> 00:54:00,676 Speaker 1: was also very helpful, even though the two of them 911 00:54:00,836 --> 00:54:03,916 Speaker 1: are probably the most in conflict with each other in 912 00:54:03,996 --> 00:54:08,356 Speaker 1: terms of the reality and rules. I was very fortunate 913 00:54:08,356 --> 00:54:10,116 Speaker 1: to be able to talk to Q Tip, who was 914 00:54:10,276 --> 00:54:14,676 Speaker 1: very protective of you know, and rightly so. And you know, 915 00:54:15,076 --> 00:54:17,876 Speaker 1: literally three days before the manuscript got turned in, I 916 00:54:17,956 --> 00:54:20,796 Speaker 1: had a two hour conversation with d'angela sitting in my 917 00:54:20,836 --> 00:54:24,996 Speaker 1: mother in law's den. Wow, you know, talking about nothing 918 00:54:25,076 --> 00:54:29,636 Speaker 1: but James. Yeah. His relationship in the studio with James great. 919 00:54:29,996 --> 00:54:32,596 Speaker 1: So I'm just grateful for every every single one, but 920 00:54:32,636 --> 00:54:35,196 Speaker 1: also to be able to talk about that Detroit community 921 00:54:35,236 --> 00:54:40,796 Speaker 1: like Rosenberg. Paul Rosenberg, right, was an early collaboratory of 922 00:54:41,316 --> 00:54:43,316 Speaker 1: j D. And then he goes on on this whole 923 00:54:43,316 --> 00:54:45,796 Speaker 1: other trajectory. I sent him a copy of your book, 924 00:54:45,796 --> 00:54:48,076 Speaker 1: not knowing that he read it, and he's like, yeah, 925 00:54:48,236 --> 00:54:50,236 Speaker 1: Dan killed it. It's like I said it to a 926 00:54:50,236 --> 00:54:52,596 Speaker 1: bunch of people already just because I thought they'd like it. 927 00:54:53,156 --> 00:54:56,156 Speaker 1: But that's the thing for me, Like, if the Detroiters 928 00:54:56,196 --> 00:55:00,476 Speaker 1: like it, I feel like I've done the best I 929 00:55:00,516 --> 00:55:03,796 Speaker 1: can do, and I almost don't care about anything else. 930 00:55:04,676 --> 00:55:06,796 Speaker 1: Tell me about what an interview for a book is, like, 931 00:55:07,396 --> 00:55:09,836 Speaker 1: you know, it's like this, I I mean, it really 932 00:55:10,076 --> 00:55:15,156 Speaker 1: is about being open and listening and starting at the beginning, 933 00:55:15,636 --> 00:55:17,996 Speaker 1: like you started at the beginning with me, because that's 934 00:55:17,996 --> 00:55:20,556 Speaker 1: a great place to start the beginning. The worst thing 935 00:55:20,556 --> 00:55:22,596 Speaker 1: to do is walk into an interview like, so, how 936 00:55:22,596 --> 00:55:28,636 Speaker 1: did you meet J? D? Horrible? Right? No, who are 937 00:55:28,636 --> 00:55:31,276 Speaker 1: your parents? Where are you from? What are your earlist memories? 938 00:55:31,596 --> 00:55:33,396 Speaker 1: What did you want to do? Where'd you go to 939 00:55:33,436 --> 00:55:37,076 Speaker 1: high school? Who are your people? Right? That's where you start. 940 00:55:37,436 --> 00:55:40,036 Speaker 1: I was taught that the two most important questions you 941 00:55:40,116 --> 00:55:43,596 Speaker 1: ask in an interview are how did you feel about that? 942 00:55:44,076 --> 00:55:49,196 Speaker 1: And what happened next? Because eventually the questions start asking themselves, 943 00:55:49,236 --> 00:55:54,396 Speaker 1: or rather the answers will just come. When people are interviewed, 944 00:55:54,756 --> 00:55:57,436 Speaker 1: not just by me, but I think by any good interviewer, 945 00:55:57,876 --> 00:56:00,436 Speaker 1: sometimes they say, oh, man, that was like therapy or 946 00:56:00,516 --> 00:56:04,916 Speaker 1: that was really good, because all therapy is psychotherapy is 947 00:56:05,316 --> 00:56:07,836 Speaker 1: somebody is there to listen to you. They're not there 948 00:56:07,876 --> 00:56:10,076 Speaker 1: to reply to what you're saying. They're not there to 949 00:56:10,876 --> 00:56:14,316 Speaker 1: even necessarily to actively try to make you feel better. 950 00:56:14,956 --> 00:56:18,236 Speaker 1: They're just listening, and it's so therapeutic to be listened to. 951 00:56:19,396 --> 00:56:21,796 Speaker 1: Most people want to talk and tell their stories and 952 00:56:21,836 --> 00:56:23,916 Speaker 1: have somebody really really listen to them. And I guess 953 00:56:24,596 --> 00:56:26,676 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm probably come by it honestly because my 954 00:56:26,716 --> 00:56:29,996 Speaker 1: mother is a psychotherapist and a marriage counselor. And I 955 00:56:30,036 --> 00:56:34,036 Speaker 1: do say that sometimes writing this book or reporting it 956 00:56:34,076 --> 00:56:36,676 Speaker 1: was like doing marriage counseling on two hundred people at once, 957 00:56:37,676 --> 00:56:41,636 Speaker 1: a lot of held in thoughts and hurt feelings, and 958 00:56:42,076 --> 00:56:45,316 Speaker 1: I'm glad that the interview process and then even having 959 00:56:45,356 --> 00:56:48,956 Speaker 1: things read back to them makes them feel heard. Is 960 00:56:48,996 --> 00:56:53,236 Speaker 1: it different interviewing a musician or an artist versus what 961 00:56:53,316 --> 00:56:56,796 Speaker 1: I'll call a layperson. Yeah, well, it depends on the 962 00:56:56,876 --> 00:57:01,156 Speaker 1: caliber of the musician. Because I relied on very very 963 00:57:01,236 --> 00:57:06,196 Speaker 1: high caliber musicians to be able to articulate things. That 964 00:57:06,276 --> 00:57:08,156 Speaker 1: was the most important thing for me in this book, 965 00:57:09,276 --> 00:57:12,516 Speaker 1: other than the things we've been talking about. Very little 966 00:57:12,516 --> 00:57:16,916 Speaker 1: writing about music nowadays is about the mechanics of music, 967 00:57:17,316 --> 00:57:21,236 Speaker 1: how it actually works, what are these rhythms and how 968 00:57:21,276 --> 00:57:26,076 Speaker 1: were they created? And very little done for sampled music, right, 969 00:57:26,956 --> 00:57:31,276 Speaker 1: like most people don't know license to ill and raising 970 00:57:31,356 --> 00:57:35,916 Speaker 1: hell were not created sampling drum machines. They were created 971 00:57:36,156 --> 00:57:40,076 Speaker 1: running audio right in from the record to a click 972 00:57:40,156 --> 00:57:44,276 Speaker 1: track on the master tape. That's like so important for 973 00:57:44,316 --> 00:57:48,716 Speaker 1: people to understand the level of creativity, right, you know, 974 00:57:48,796 --> 00:57:52,516 Speaker 1: that goes into something like that. So I wanted very 975 00:57:52,596 --> 00:57:55,396 Speaker 1: much to understand the mechanics of what's going on with 976 00:57:55,436 --> 00:58:00,756 Speaker 1: the drum machines and with sampling, and then also theoretically 977 00:58:01,036 --> 00:58:05,156 Speaker 1: what's happening. So speaking to somebody like Jason Moran, one 978 00:58:05,196 --> 00:58:08,796 Speaker 1: of I think the greatest musical minds alive. His whole 979 00:58:08,796 --> 00:58:11,396 Speaker 1: thing was not so much the rhythm of JD, but 980 00:58:11,556 --> 00:58:14,356 Speaker 1: how he resolved harmony. He wanted to talk about JD's 981 00:58:14,396 --> 00:58:18,156 Speaker 1: use of common tone. He talks about JD as an MC. 982 00:58:18,436 --> 00:58:21,836 Speaker 1: He calls it facing the beat, facing the rhythm, meaning 983 00:58:21,836 --> 00:58:26,276 Speaker 1: that if the high hat is going, JD is actually 984 00:58:26,316 --> 00:58:29,436 Speaker 1: going to pull inspiration from the motion of that high 985 00:58:29,436 --> 00:58:31,236 Speaker 1: hat and he's going to reflect it in his verse. 986 00:58:31,676 --> 00:58:34,716 Speaker 1: That to me is the benefit of talking to somebody 987 00:58:34,756 --> 00:58:37,316 Speaker 1: who is a master of their craft. And so there 988 00:58:37,356 --> 00:58:40,436 Speaker 1: were musicians who I spoke to, both programmers and traditional 989 00:58:40,476 --> 00:58:43,396 Speaker 1: musicians who could really really do that. D'Angel was like that, 990 00:58:44,156 --> 00:58:46,596 Speaker 1: questloves like that. In deciding what was going to go 991 00:58:46,636 --> 00:58:50,196 Speaker 1: into the book, how do you decide the balance of 992 00:58:51,316 --> 00:58:54,636 Speaker 1: personal versus professional? And there may even be three categories. 993 00:58:54,676 --> 00:59:00,756 Speaker 1: There might be technical, professional, and personal. Yeah. Man, there 994 00:59:00,796 --> 00:59:04,596 Speaker 1: was the musicology thread, there was the biography thread, and 995 00:59:04,596 --> 00:59:08,516 Speaker 1: then there was the context thread. And that second chapter 996 00:59:08,596 --> 00:59:12,396 Speaker 1: of the book, straight Time Swing Time was me sort 997 00:59:12,436 --> 00:59:14,876 Speaker 1: of stacking all three of them on top of each other, 998 00:59:15,116 --> 00:59:17,916 Speaker 1: and I did not know if it was going to work. 999 00:59:18,236 --> 00:59:20,436 Speaker 1: The main tension in writing a book like this is 1000 00:59:20,516 --> 00:59:25,356 Speaker 1: between fan service and trying to bring new people in 1001 00:59:25,796 --> 00:59:27,836 Speaker 1: who don't know anything about hip hop or j D. 1002 00:59:28,276 --> 00:59:30,676 Speaker 1: There were ways that I had to keep things very simple, 1003 00:59:31,316 --> 00:59:34,156 Speaker 1: but there were also stories that I absolutely needed to 1004 00:59:34,156 --> 00:59:37,276 Speaker 1: tell because if they weren't in here, I don't think 1005 00:59:37,276 --> 00:59:41,396 Speaker 1: that they would be ever told. So the book is 1006 00:59:41,476 --> 00:59:45,236 Speaker 1: longer than probably I would have even liked it to be. 1007 00:59:46,276 --> 00:59:48,756 Speaker 1: But there were certain things I felt I had to 1008 00:59:48,796 --> 00:59:52,236 Speaker 1: do for the fans, the core fans, and then other 1009 00:59:52,276 --> 00:59:55,196 Speaker 1: stories that I needed to make sure that I can't 1010 00:59:55,196 --> 00:59:57,676 Speaker 1: assume that everybody knows what sampling is, So I need 1011 00:59:57,716 --> 01:00:00,156 Speaker 1: to tell you the story about Roger Lynn, because that 1012 01:00:00,236 --> 01:00:02,756 Speaker 1: is a fascinating story. It's a great story. And I 1013 01:00:02,836 --> 01:00:04,916 Speaker 1: used his equipment and I didn't know that story. I 1014 01:00:04,956 --> 01:00:09,556 Speaker 1: loved it. How about that Tom Petty? Incredible? Also the 1015 01:00:10,116 --> 01:00:13,236 Speaker 1: sequencer player in the manual? How did you come across? 1016 01:00:13,316 --> 01:00:16,756 Speaker 1: Did you happen to read the manual? I bought an 1017 01:00:16,876 --> 01:00:20,596 Speaker 1: MPC three thousand before I taught the Diller class in 1018 01:00:20,636 --> 01:00:23,996 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, because I would be remiss if I'm trying 1019 01:00:24,036 --> 01:00:26,756 Speaker 1: to teach about this dude, and I don't know how 1020 01:00:26,756 --> 01:00:30,436 Speaker 1: the instrument works. Incredible, And so I opened the manual 1021 01:00:30,836 --> 01:00:32,756 Speaker 1: and there it is, and it's funny. I read it 1022 01:00:32,756 --> 01:00:36,476 Speaker 1: back to Roger Lynn, and Roger Lynn's like, I don't 1023 01:00:36,476 --> 01:00:39,156 Speaker 1: even remember writing that. It sounds like I don't know, 1024 01:00:39,236 --> 01:00:42,076 Speaker 1: you know, maybe like he didn't even have a memory 1025 01:00:42,196 --> 01:00:44,716 Speaker 1: of it. He didn't know how profound it was. I 1026 01:00:44,756 --> 01:00:49,116 Speaker 1: thought that was super profound, incredible because people are to 1027 01:00:49,316 --> 01:00:53,876 Speaker 1: read predicting the future? Incredible? Did you often do follow 1028 01:00:53,916 --> 01:00:57,356 Speaker 1: up interviews all the time? Sometimes, especially if there were 1029 01:00:57,356 --> 01:01:00,156 Speaker 1: two characters or three characters in conflict, it would be 1030 01:01:00,196 --> 01:01:01,996 Speaker 1: like a round robin. I'd go back and forth and 1031 01:01:02,036 --> 01:01:04,476 Speaker 1: back and forth, just trying to get there. You know, 1032 01:01:04,636 --> 01:01:07,996 Speaker 1: there was a scene about a fight between James and 1033 01:01:08,116 --> 01:01:11,116 Speaker 1: the mother of his child, and then fiance and I 1034 01:01:11,156 --> 01:01:13,716 Speaker 1: had to go file a Freedom of Information Act request 1035 01:01:13,756 --> 01:01:16,436 Speaker 1: to get a police report, and even the police report 1036 01:01:16,876 --> 01:01:20,236 Speaker 1: was sort of like had two realities in it because 1037 01:01:20,276 --> 01:01:22,196 Speaker 1: obviously the police weren't there what had happened. They were 1038 01:01:22,196 --> 01:01:26,196 Speaker 1: just there after what had happened happened. So yeah, going 1039 01:01:26,236 --> 01:01:28,236 Speaker 1: back time and again, but I just think, I think 1040 01:01:28,276 --> 01:01:31,236 Speaker 1: every time I went back it was worth it. Every 1041 01:01:31,676 --> 01:01:36,036 Speaker 1: third or fourth call totally worth it. Glad that I 1042 01:01:36,076 --> 01:01:39,036 Speaker 1: did it. How much of your interpretation is in the 1043 01:01:39,036 --> 01:01:43,676 Speaker 1: book versus just what you heard, just what you took in, 1044 01:01:44,156 --> 01:01:47,676 Speaker 1: I would say there's a good deal I allowed myself 1045 01:01:48,996 --> 01:01:52,116 Speaker 1: because I did a great deal of reporting. I felt 1046 01:01:52,156 --> 01:01:55,676 Speaker 1: I had a bit of latitude because I'm also dealing 1047 01:01:55,676 --> 01:01:58,836 Speaker 1: with somebody who was silent mostly during his life and 1048 01:01:58,956 --> 01:02:03,076 Speaker 1: is silent now. I gave myself a little latitude to interpret, 1049 01:02:03,436 --> 01:02:07,476 Speaker 1: latitude to lay out a theory. I didn't want to 1050 01:02:07,876 --> 01:02:10,836 Speaker 1: put thoughts or words into anybody's mouths, and so I 1051 01:02:10,876 --> 01:02:14,916 Speaker 1: was really careful about that. But I also felt like 1052 01:02:15,076 --> 01:02:18,356 Speaker 1: as an author and a journalist, I did have to 1053 01:02:18,396 --> 01:02:24,756 Speaker 1: have an intuitive relationship with James. That intuition was based 1054 01:02:25,156 --> 01:02:28,396 Speaker 1: again resting on reporting, resting on talking to his friends, 1055 01:02:28,476 --> 01:02:32,116 Speaker 1: to his family. But where that intuition comes in, it's like, Okay, 1056 01:02:32,156 --> 01:02:34,476 Speaker 1: why did James do that? We were talking about God 1057 01:02:34,556 --> 01:02:37,716 Speaker 1: till it's gone. Why would James say that? Why would 1058 01:02:37,756 --> 01:02:40,956 Speaker 1: James say he did something when he didn't. That's where 1059 01:02:41,076 --> 01:02:43,716 Speaker 1: the empathy comes in. That's like, Okay, let me try 1060 01:02:43,756 --> 01:02:45,396 Speaker 1: to put myself in this person. And I know there's 1061 01:02:45,396 --> 01:02:48,116 Speaker 1: a lot of differences between me and this person. You know, 1062 01:02:48,516 --> 01:02:50,916 Speaker 1: I'm white, he's black. I'm from New York, he's from Detroit. 1063 01:02:51,036 --> 01:02:53,476 Speaker 1: I come from an upper middle class family. He comes 1064 01:02:53,516 --> 01:02:56,356 Speaker 1: from a working class family. All those differences. But then again, 1065 01:02:56,796 --> 01:02:58,116 Speaker 1: I'm in the hip hop business. He was in the 1066 01:02:58,196 --> 01:03:01,596 Speaker 1: hip hop business. I made beats, He made beats. All 1067 01:03:01,636 --> 01:03:04,796 Speaker 1: of those things play in I allowed myself to feel 1068 01:03:04,916 --> 01:03:09,796 Speaker 1: certain things. So yeah, I do think that he was 1069 01:03:09,836 --> 01:03:13,556 Speaker 1: feeling some kind of way about his mentor Q Tip 1070 01:03:13,876 --> 01:03:16,836 Speaker 1: walking into a recording studio with Terry Losing, Jimmy Jamma 1071 01:03:16,916 --> 01:03:19,836 Speaker 1: Jenny Jackson and coming out of that studio with a 1072 01:03:19,916 --> 01:03:24,356 Speaker 1: song that sounded like an Uma JD record, but JD 1073 01:03:24,516 --> 01:03:26,116 Speaker 1: not being a part of it. At all, not being 1074 01:03:26,116 --> 01:03:27,916 Speaker 1: able to partake in it at all, and not being 1075 01:03:27,956 --> 01:03:30,956 Speaker 1: able to be JD even on the stuff he is producing. Man, 1076 01:03:30,996 --> 01:03:33,916 Speaker 1: that would make me hot too. It make me hot. 1077 01:03:34,916 --> 01:03:38,756 Speaker 1: That's where the intuition comes in. So that answer your question. Yeah, interesting. 1078 01:03:39,036 --> 01:03:41,996 Speaker 1: The last question is how do you feel like you 1079 01:03:42,036 --> 01:03:46,316 Speaker 1: were changed by this story? You live your projects, right Rick, 1080 01:03:46,596 --> 01:03:48,396 Speaker 1: They nurture you, but they also break you. At the 1081 01:03:48,436 --> 01:03:52,556 Speaker 1: same time, you're seeing me sort of post like it 1082 01:03:53,036 --> 01:03:56,116 Speaker 1: has been a fantastic launch. When you release a piece 1083 01:03:56,116 --> 01:03:59,076 Speaker 1: of work into the world, it's no longer yours, right, 1084 01:03:59,276 --> 01:04:02,676 Speaker 1: it doesn't belong to you anymore, And so that part 1085 01:04:02,756 --> 01:04:06,076 Speaker 1: has been kind of amazing to watch. You know, I've 1086 01:04:06,116 --> 01:04:09,516 Speaker 1: never been a New York Times best selling person before, Right, 1087 01:04:09,596 --> 01:04:12,516 Speaker 1: that's nice. At the same time, there's a part of 1088 01:04:12,556 --> 01:04:16,156 Speaker 1: me that's just like kind of broken by it, and 1089 01:04:16,196 --> 01:04:18,916 Speaker 1: I Yank's okay, you know. I mean that's why I'm 1090 01:04:18,956 --> 01:04:22,476 Speaker 1: talking to you on this day, at this moment right now, 1091 01:04:22,796 --> 01:04:25,636 Speaker 1: Because who is the person that led me to meditation 1092 01:04:25,676 --> 01:04:28,596 Speaker 1: in yoga, who is the person that gave me some 1093 01:04:28,676 --> 01:04:31,196 Speaker 1: things to gather? It makes sense that I'm talking to 1094 01:04:31,236 --> 01:04:35,156 Speaker 1: you today. So we're holy, we're broken yes, you have 1095 01:04:35,196 --> 01:04:39,076 Speaker 1: any idea what you're gonna do next? Yeah, I will 1096 01:04:39,116 --> 01:04:41,476 Speaker 1: say this, I do have an idea of a figure, 1097 01:04:42,196 --> 01:04:46,876 Speaker 1: musical figure who really needs this treatment. But I will 1098 01:04:46,956 --> 01:04:50,556 Speaker 1: keep my own counsel on that for the moment. But 1099 01:04:50,796 --> 01:04:54,436 Speaker 1: I guess, Rick, after being behind the desk and doing 1100 01:04:54,476 --> 01:04:59,436 Speaker 1: things like an R and whatever, I actually I finally 1101 01:04:59,516 --> 01:05:01,596 Speaker 1: arrived at the fact that I am an artist. I 1102 01:05:01,676 --> 01:05:04,756 Speaker 1: have an artist temperament. I'm actually more introverted than I 1103 01:05:04,796 --> 01:05:08,156 Speaker 1: am extroverted. And you know, I get better late than 1104 01:05:08,196 --> 01:05:11,596 Speaker 1: ever for that realization. So like an artist, I don't 1105 01:05:11,636 --> 01:05:13,636 Speaker 1: know what the hell I'm will do next. Great, but 1106 01:05:14,036 --> 01:05:17,356 Speaker 1: it'll probably yell at me before I do it. Beautiful, Well, 1107 01:05:17,436 --> 01:05:19,276 Speaker 1: I love the book. Thank you so much for talking 1108 01:05:19,316 --> 01:05:22,676 Speaker 1: to me. Great to see you. It's awesome to see you. Man. 1109 01:05:23,636 --> 01:05:26,756 Speaker 1: You know you know I love you. I love you 1110 01:05:26,796 --> 01:05:30,356 Speaker 1: so much. Rick, You're a great teacher. And often I 1111 01:05:31,396 --> 01:05:34,716 Speaker 1: use your wisdom with my son. Sometimes I say to him, 1112 01:05:34,716 --> 01:05:38,276 Speaker 1: this is what he said to me. And like all wisdom, 1113 01:05:38,516 --> 01:05:40,716 Speaker 1: dogma thinks it's true one hundred percent of the time, 1114 01:05:40,716 --> 01:05:43,236 Speaker 1: but wisdom knows that it's only true ninety nine percent 1115 01:05:43,316 --> 01:05:46,876 Speaker 1: of the ton. And you would say to me, Dan, 1116 01:05:47,876 --> 01:05:52,396 Speaker 1: there's nothing worth getting that upset over. Yeah, that's good. 1117 01:05:52,596 --> 01:05:56,236 Speaker 1: It's so liberating. That's from you. That and the worst shit. 1118 01:05:58,116 --> 01:06:00,156 Speaker 1: Thank you. I can't wait till we get to do 1119 01:06:00,196 --> 01:06:03,476 Speaker 1: this again. All right, Love you forever, Rick, Love you too, sir. 1120 01:06:03,876 --> 01:06:09,396 Speaker 1: All Right peace. Thanks to Dan Charming This for walking 1121 01:06:09,476 --> 01:06:11,476 Speaker 1: us through the reporting and writing of his new book, 1122 01:06:11,636 --> 01:06:14,476 Speaker 1: Dilla Time, The Life and afterlife of Ja Dilla, the 1123 01:06:14,556 --> 01:06:18,076 Speaker 1: hip hop producer who reinvented rhythm. It's out now everywhere. 1124 01:06:18,436 --> 01:06:20,236 Speaker 1: To hear some of our favorite Jay de Las songs 1125 01:06:20,276 --> 01:06:23,076 Speaker 1: and some of Dan's work at Death American. Check out 1126 01:06:23,076 --> 01:06:26,636 Speaker 1: the playlist at broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure 1127 01:06:26,676 --> 01:06:29,476 Speaker 1: to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com 1128 01:06:29,476 --> 01:06:32,396 Speaker 1: slash Broken Record Podcast, where you can find all of 1129 01:06:32,436 --> 01:06:35,396 Speaker 1: our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at 1130 01:06:35,396 --> 01:06:38,476 Speaker 1: broken Record. Broken Record is produced help from Lea Rose, 1131 01:06:38,636 --> 01:06:43,316 Speaker 1: Jason Gambrel, Bentaladay, Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering 1132 01:06:43,396 --> 01:06:47,116 Speaker 1: help from Nick Chafee. Our executive producer is Mia LaBelle. 1133 01:06:47,876 --> 01:06:51,076 Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you 1134 01:06:51,116 --> 01:06:53,836 Speaker 1: like this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to 1135 01:06:53,956 --> 01:06:57,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers 1136 01:06:57,876 --> 01:07:01,516 Speaker 1: bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety 1137 01:07:01,556 --> 01:07:05,516 Speaker 1: nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, 1138 01:07:06,196 --> 01:07:08,596 Speaker 1: and if you like the show, please remember to share, rate, 1139 01:07:08,636 --> 01:07:11,236 Speaker 1: and review us on your podcast app or the music 1140 01:07:11,196 --> 01:07:17,236 Speaker 1: Expect any beats. I'm Justin Richmond, h