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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I and

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Speaker 1: Matt and today we're talking about negotiating a fatter paycheck

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Speaker 1: in uncertain times with Rich Jones. Yeah, a juel. Today

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Speaker 1: we are speaking with a fellow podcaster, Rich Jones, who

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Speaker 1: is the host of Paychecks and Balances, which is a

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Speaker 1: personal finance show. And also Rich has worked in human

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Speaker 1: resources and recruiting for the better part of a decade,

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Speaker 1: and so we are particularly excited to talk with him

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Speaker 1: about negotiating raises. You know, entrepreneurship, it tends to get

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Speaker 1: all the attention, but for most folks, the steady nine

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Speaker 1: to five job with benefits is how they are paying

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Speaker 1: for life. You know, it's really important to talk about

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Speaker 1: handling interviews, navigating performance reviews, season because these are areas

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Speaker 1: that impact our finances. So we are pumped to talk

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Speaker 1: about all of this and more today. Rich. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for joining us on the podcast today. Appreciate you guys

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Speaker 1: having me. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Yeah

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Speaker 1: it is. We're looking forward to this conversation Rich, But

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Speaker 1: before we dive into it, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: Matt and I do we trink a beer on every

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Speaker 1: podcast episode. Because we really love draft beer, and we're

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Speaker 1: spending money on something that we love right now while

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Speaker 1: we're also being thoughtful about saving and investing for the future.

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Speaker 1: So I want to know what's that thing in your life,

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Speaker 1: what's your craft beer equivalent. The easy answer for me

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Speaker 1: is door dash, But I think that's the case for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people right now, and that's actually part

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Speaker 1: of my spending problem is I need to stop door

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Speaker 1: dash in and actually start cooking. But I am a

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Speaker 1: gadget monster, and we were talking beforehand about how I'm

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Speaker 1: trying out microphones. I'm buying smart doorbells, smart this, smart that.

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Speaker 1: Looking at the ring doorbells. So the place that I

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Speaker 1: live in came with a ring doorbell, but I decided

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Speaker 1: that we needed a doorbell chime inside, so I bought

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Speaker 1: the smart doorbell chime to go inside. I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: find a smart thermostatic connector since I can't plug my

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Speaker 1: nest in here, and I'm trying to figure out some

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Speaker 1: other smart stuff. So I am all about gadgets and

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Speaker 1: simplifying my life. The one thing about these gadgets, though,

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Speaker 1: is that once the maker stops updating a particular model

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Speaker 1: or something changes a lot of these devices become obsolete

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Speaker 1: really fast. So I do have some things where I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this was nice when it worked three years ago. Even

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Speaker 1: just now, I bought a home security system and the

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Speaker 1: maker said that they're no longer releasing any more versions

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Speaker 1: of this new security system, but they will continue to

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Speaker 1: support it, which to me means I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: get any new features, but it serves its purpose for now.

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Speaker 1: But that's something that I'm gonna be a lot more

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Speaker 1: cognizant of going forward, because this thing wasn't cheap, and

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Speaker 1: so I am gonna be a lot more thoughtful about

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Speaker 1: some of these smart devices and if I actually need

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Speaker 1: them totally with you man, Uh, planned obsolescence sucks. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I will say we've got this, uh well, originally it

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Speaker 1: was a drop cam, but now this it's owned by Nest.

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Speaker 1: We've got one of these cameras in our house. And

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Speaker 1: this was the first generation nestcam and it was back

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Speaker 1: when it's called the drop Cam and it's still supported

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Speaker 1: and we're able to use our Nest app, and I

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Speaker 1: mean we take it with us whenever we travel. And

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Speaker 1: I have actually been very surprised at at how well

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Speaker 1: that camera has kept up, and I think it's I

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Speaker 1: mean it's close to eight years old now, which I

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Speaker 1: mean that's ancient, right when it comes to some of

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Speaker 1: these different gadgets. Well, the fun fact I used to

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Speaker 1: work for Nest, and I worked for Nest when drop

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Speaker 1: Cam was acquired, and yeah, and by day I work

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Speaker 1: at Google and and the security system. Actually, I'm actually

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Speaker 1: mad at Google about it because that's the security system

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Speaker 1: I bought, and then they essentially said they're not releasing

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Speaker 1: any more new versions of it. So I want to

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Speaker 1: send an email to somebody, I just don't know who.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm familiar with all of the Nest products,

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Speaker 1: very cool, thermostat. I think I was saying, I can't

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Speaker 1: get that plugged in here. I've got a couple of

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Speaker 1: Nest cams drop cams, So I'm glad that those products

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Speaker 1: have been serving you. Well. Yeah, well thank you Rich. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Before we dive into, you know, negotiation, that's what we

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Speaker 1: want to spend a lot of our time talking about today,

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Speaker 1: but we would love to talk about your story specifically.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us your own difficulties with debt and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know what got you motivated to finally do something

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Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, And I like to say that I

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Speaker 1: don't have the traditional debt story, and maybe everyone says

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Speaker 1: that about their debt story, that it's not traditional. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't like I had a ton of student loans

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Speaker 1: or I had some emergency situation in life. I just

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Speaker 1: gradually just got into debt, doing things like putting food

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Speaker 1: on my credit card. And uh I was with somebody

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Speaker 1: for a few years and we shared a credit card.

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Speaker 1: I had added her as an authorized user on my

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Speaker 1: credit card account, and so we were both putting stuff

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Speaker 1: on the credit card. And then uh I had a

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Speaker 1: separate card as well. So I had these two credit

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Speaker 1: cards that were going at at one time. And when

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Speaker 1: all was sudden done and at the peak, I had

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Speaker 1: about twenty thousand dollars of credit card debt. And I

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Speaker 1: couldn't tell you any one particular thing that led to that.

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Speaker 1: It was just over time putting stuff on there, saying oh,

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Speaker 1: we'll pay it off next month, but not paying it

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Speaker 1: off the next month, and not really being rigorous about

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Speaker 1: what was going on to the card and making sure

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Speaker 1: that things were paid off in a timely fashion. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until it's probably about two thousand sixteen ish,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of insane given that I was in

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Speaker 1: the personal finance podcasting space at the time. But I

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Speaker 1: know for a lot of us, we learned from our

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Speaker 1: guests and we tell our audiences do as we say,

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Speaker 1: not as we do. But that was part of it

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Speaker 1: for me where I got to a point where I said,

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Speaker 1: I have so much credit card debt right now that

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Speaker 1: what if something goes wrong. I know that I'm in

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Speaker 1: a secure job, but what if something goes wrong. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm one emergency away from being in a

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Speaker 1: really bad situation where I'm in over my head with debt,

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Speaker 1: and if I lose my job, I'll be really stressed out.

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Speaker 1: And the biggest difference for me was deciding to become

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Speaker 1: intentional or intentionality, where I just made a decision I

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Speaker 1: want this debt gone. And I also thought about my

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Speaker 1: personal values, which for me, freedom is my top thing,

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Speaker 1: and how can you feel free when you have fifteen

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Speaker 1: or twenty thousand dollars a debt hanging over your head?

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Speaker 1: Truth And for me, it was really about any extra

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Speaker 1: money that I had come in, so whether that was

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Speaker 1: through performance bonuses at work. I'm fortunate to work somewhere

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Speaker 1: where I have access to stock or r s use

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Speaker 1: whatever extra money is coming in, I'm going to start

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Speaker 1: applying that to my credit card debt. And for me,

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Speaker 1: I did the whole thing where I opened up a

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Speaker 1: balance transfer card because I had a point in time

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Speaker 1: where I was paying over a hundred dollars a month

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Speaker 1: in interest alone. Yeah, that was that was bad. And

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Speaker 1: I did that consistently, and it was so bad at

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Speaker 1: one point that I would just see it and I

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Speaker 1: would just laugh at it instead of actually doing something

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Speaker 1: about it, because you know, somehow that seemed like a

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Speaker 1: better answer. But eventually somebody should do something about that.

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Speaker 1: And it's just like, I'm so irresponsible. Is anyone listened

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Speaker 1: to me. But I got to a point where I

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Speaker 1: did a balance transfer just to get some of that

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Speaker 1: money onto a separate card and bring down that interest.

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Speaker 1: And then really it was bringing it down in chunks

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Speaker 1: for me, so I got a bonus, I had an

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Speaker 1: expense that I ended up not having to pay for

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Speaker 1: a month. That money is going towards my card, and

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Speaker 1: I just kept chipping away at it, chipping away at it.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing that I had was a car note,

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Speaker 1: and I ended up paying off the credit card debt.

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Speaker 1: I want to say it was January two thousand eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and then I ended up paying off my car note

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Speaker 1: two years early in August two eighteen, and that's when

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Speaker 1: I became debt free hashtag debt free period and rich

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Speaker 1: you kind of turned into a side hustle master, was

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Speaker 1: like the reason behind creating your side hustles? Was any

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Speaker 1: part of that trying to accelerate debt payoff as well? No,

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Speaker 1: I just have an interest in helping people, and everything

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Speaker 1: that I've done on the side has been geared toward

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Speaker 1: helping people, like that's my thing. So I happened to

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Speaker 1: be in the personal finance space, but personal development is

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Speaker 1: actually the bigger bucket that I'm most passionate about, and

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Speaker 1: personal finance just happens to be an item under that bucket.

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Speaker 1: Career advice, career development, professional coaching is also under their

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Speaker 1: helping people start and grow podcast is also something else

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Speaker 1: did I do? So for me, it's all about that

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Speaker 1: that buzz and high that I get from helping people

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Speaker 1: and and seeing them launch something or seeing them make

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Speaker 1: a change in their life. That's like truly meaningful. And

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Speaker 1: that's not to say I don't like my day job.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love the people that I work with,

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Speaker 1: I work on challenging projects, but it's not the same

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Speaker 1: as when I hear someone say, hey, thanks to your advice,

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Speaker 1: Like I got out of debt, Hey I was able

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Speaker 1: to afford this thing, or hey, guess what, I was

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Speaker 1: able to negotiate a higher salary or get this job,

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Speaker 1: or I finally launched my podcast after three years. Like

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Speaker 1: that's the stuff that's really meaningful to me. And so

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Speaker 1: with these side businesses, their businesses, but I'm not really

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Speaker 1: in them for the money, and I think that's probably

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Speaker 1: also been part of the problem from just being like

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Speaker 1: a business owner. But it's really about the helping people

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Speaker 1: that's also up there is one of my top values,

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Speaker 1: how helping others and making a difference. So that's really

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Speaker 1: been the core reasons that I've started some of these

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Speaker 1: various side projects that I yeah, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: best parts of getting involved in the personal finance space, right,

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Speaker 1: being able to connect with individuals and seeing how they're

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Speaker 1: changing their life. We could not agree with you anymore there.

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Speaker 1: You recently mentioned this in an episode I think, but uh,

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Speaker 1: you recently felt the stress of taking on too many gigs, right,

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Speaker 1: like saying yes to too many things? Um mentioned where

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Speaker 1: like basically October was kind of like one of the

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Speaker 1: toughest months for you ever, So do you want to

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Speaker 1: talk about that some how? You know, how are you

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Speaker 1: going about finding a healthier balance these days? Yeah, October

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Speaker 1: was the best and the worst at the same time.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I created this situation for myself and I

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Speaker 1: talked about it in the first solo episode that I've

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Speaker 1: ever done for the podcast, and essentially almost all of

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Speaker 1: those things that I've been hoping and wishing for over

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Speaker 1: the course of the years. And you guys probably know

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Speaker 1: where you're like, Oh, I would love it if the

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Speaker 1: show was here. You see what other people are doing

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Speaker 1: when they have all of these opportunities coming their way.

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Speaker 1: I'm starting to have that that hockey stick growth in

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Speaker 1: that kind of that wind followed things that are coming in,

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Speaker 1: and I wasn't used to the speed at which things

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Speaker 1: were coming in. So I started saying yes to everything.

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Speaker 1: It started with saying yes to creating a seven episode

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Speaker 1: audio course for a learning platform, and then next thing,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I'm saying yes to facilitating sessions at

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Speaker 1: a conference. And then I'm saying yes to facilitating a

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Speaker 1: session for a startup on generational wealth. Then I blew

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Speaker 1: out my back, and then on top of that, I

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Speaker 1: was moving and oh, by the way, while all this

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Speaker 1: was going on, I had a day job and sometimes

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Speaker 1: and sometimes I even forget to mention that part. And

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Speaker 1: so when October came around, I thought that things were

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Speaker 1: gonna work out perfectly. I didn't anticipate my back being

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Speaker 1: messed up, which like really took me out to the

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Speaker 1: point that I was on his work meetings and I

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Speaker 1: would be on the floor crawling with my video off

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Speaker 1: and my microphone off, just like writhing in pain and

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Speaker 1: that kind of yeah. And so that yeah, back, it

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Speaker 1: is the absolute worst. And I even felt a little

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Speaker 1: bit of it this morning. I'm like, you, you better

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Speaker 1: not do this to me again. And I think what

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Speaker 1: I realized from this whole experiences a lot of the

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Speaker 1: pressure and stress that I created. It was my choice, ultimately,

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Speaker 1: and because I said yes to everything, and there was

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Speaker 1: a point where I told my girl, I said I

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Speaker 1: am not going to take on anything else, and then

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Speaker 1: from the time that I said that to her, I

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Speaker 1: took on like three more things. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: that stress was self imposed. So now that I'm through

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Speaker 1: this insanely busy stretch, and I'm still in a recovery mode,

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Speaker 1: to be quite honest, especially with all of the other

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Speaker 1: stuff that's been happening in the US. That's all I'll

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Speaker 1: say about that. But now that I'm through this busy stretch,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking very strategically about how much can I really

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Speaker 1: take on? What am I going to say yes, no, two?

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Speaker 1: And what is the criteria for me saying yes versus

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Speaker 1: no so that I don't find myself in that situation again,

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Speaker 1: and the and the other thing that's been consistent through

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Speaker 1: all of this that I think has been extremely helpful

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Speaker 1: is having a therapist that I've been able to talk

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Speaker 1: to on a weekly basis to help me center and

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Speaker 1: and talk through what's going on, because really this is

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Speaker 1: only one part of it. When I talk about what's

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Speaker 1: happening with the entrepreneurial stuff and the work stuff, there's

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Speaker 1: also just life in general. So I think having somebody

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Speaker 1: that I could talk to on a recurring basis to

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Speaker 1: let all of that stuff out, even though I was

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Speaker 1: still ultimately stressed, I can't imagine how much more stressed

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Speaker 1: I would have been if I didn't have somebody that

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Speaker 1: I could regularly talk to on a professional level about

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Speaker 1: everything that was going on. Sure, sounds like has hit

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Speaker 1: you in a way in a similar way to the

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Speaker 1: way it's hit a whole lot of people, And you

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Speaker 1: know a lot of people hit them hard in you know,

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Speaker 1: in the job space. And so a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in our country are still without work, and so I

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Speaker 1: want to kind of transition into kind of some of

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Speaker 1: the stuff that you speak to on a regular basis

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Speaker 1: on your podcast. What's the best advice that you have

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Speaker 1: for listeners who are unemployed or underemployed right now when

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Speaker 1: it comes to job hunting. I think you gotta keep networking.

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Speaker 1: And that sounds super basic, but you've got to keep

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Speaker 1: yourself out there, and especially if you're unemployed right now.

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Speaker 1: So in past years, the idea of blasting out to

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Speaker 1: your network, hey, I'm looking for new opportunities would have

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Speaker 1: been a bit frowned upon, kind of like, oh, like,

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Speaker 1: if this person is really that good, why did they

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Speaker 1: have to announce that they're looking for opportunities? Whereas now

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Speaker 1: it's known that millions of people are out of work,

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Speaker 1: and it is more acceptable to say, hey, I'm available

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Speaker 1: for new opportunities, or hey, I was caught up in

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Speaker 1: a layoff and I'm looking for new opportunities. Please keep

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Speaker 1: me in mind. And I mentioned this as a as

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Speaker 1: a tip because I'll give a quick story that that

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Speaker 1: kind of summarizes like how this worked out. Somebody on

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Speaker 1: Twitter had posted about an opportunity that they were interested

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Speaker 1: in at a particular company that that's how I'll describe

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Speaker 1: it for now, and they were looking for advice on

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Speaker 1: how to interview, how to get their foot in the door.

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Speaker 1: Somebody else knew that I dabbled in career advice and

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Speaker 1: that I worked at said company. They tagged me in.

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Speaker 1: I went and looked this person up on LinkedIn, saw

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Speaker 1: that their profile was super up to date and that

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Speaker 1: they had a very thorough background. They just wanted to

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Speaker 1: make this pivot and make a change. I took this

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Speaker 1: person on for a uh kind of an informational call,

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Speaker 1: and I was so impressed with their command of their

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Speaker 1: background and their command of like why they were looking

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Speaker 1: to make a transition and all of this stuff that

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Speaker 1: I ended up not only just kind of giving them

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Speaker 1: tips of how to go through the process, but I

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Speaker 1: actually ended up referring that person into the company, which

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Speaker 1: got them an interview, and that would not have happened

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Speaker 1: had this person not put it out there to their

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Speaker 1: network that they were exploring new opportunities. They wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: put it out there for a person to then connect

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Speaker 1: them to me, for us to even have that conversation.

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Speaker 1: And some may say that that's abnormal, but I would say,

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Speaker 1: especially right now, this is the time where it's okay

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Speaker 1: to really put yourself out there and say, hey, I'm exploring,

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Speaker 1: so that people keep you in mind as they hear

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Speaker 1: about things that are coming up. And I've got a

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Speaker 1: few people who I know like that we're based off

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Speaker 1: of what opportunities I hear about. I have folks that

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Speaker 1: I that I keep in mind based off of what

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Speaker 1: I've seen them post on LinkedIn or even just messages

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Speaker 1: that I've got for from them where they've said, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm exploring opportunities. Let me know if you hear about anything.

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Speaker 1: So just putting yourself out there and not doing it

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Speaker 1: in secrecy is really important right now. Yeah, it's it

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Speaker 1: seems like it's accepted more now. Right it's less of

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Speaker 1: the sign of disgrace, and it's something that folks are

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Speaker 1: doing because it's kind of fun to network. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like you actually get enjoyment out of making these connections, right,

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Speaker 1: and kind of like helping folks out. I really like

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Speaker 1: that the networking is key. And you know you're talking

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Speaker 1: a lot here about LinkedIn, So I in my professional career,

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Speaker 1: I basically been self employed this entire time. It's a

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Speaker 1: LinkedIn is something I am not very familiar with, but

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Speaker 1: we know you're really into it and you've mentioned how

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Speaker 1: it's just a really important tool. Can you basically explain why,

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Speaker 1: like make a case for LinkedIn, Like, if folks aren't

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Speaker 1: on LinkedIn, why should they or they're not doing it? Well? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's a professional social network, and I would

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Speaker 1: say LinkedIn is especially valuable if you do kind of

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Speaker 1: professional white collar type of gigs and if you're doing

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Speaker 1: stuff like plumbing in an electrician. Probably not the best platform,

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Speaker 1: though I encourage everyone to to be on there, and

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Speaker 1: most companies, most recruiters, and so for for people who

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Speaker 1: don't know, which might be a lot of the audience.

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Speaker 1: I spent about ten years in staffing in some combination

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Speaker 1: of staffing in HR and every company that I worked

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Speaker 1: at provided me with the LinkedIn license, and that is

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Speaker 1: the way that recruiters and that is the way that

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Speaker 1: hiring managers went about searching for and identifying candidates. And

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Speaker 1: even when I was a recruiter, if someone applied directly

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Speaker 1: to a role and I had their resume, I would

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Speaker 1: still go look at their LinkedIn profile to make sure

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Speaker 1: that they're telling a consistent story and to see if

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Speaker 1: there was anything else that I could learn about them,

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Speaker 1: especially if I was on the fence about what I

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Speaker 1: saw on their resume. And so it is the primary

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Speaker 1: place where recruiters and hiring managers and professionals are hanging

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Speaker 1: out looking for talent. And a lot of times you're

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Speaker 1: missing out on opportunities that you didn't even know existed

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Speaker 1: because you don't have a profile on the platform or

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Speaker 1: your profile isn't up to date. So when a recruiter

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Speaker 1: like myself is running a search, you come up. And

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Speaker 1: that's why I think it's really important that people have

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Speaker 1: a presence on the platform, because it is the central

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Speaker 1: place and hub where recruiters and anyone who is hiring

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Speaker 1: for professional roles hangs out. But then also if you

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Speaker 1: have an optimized profiles it's just kind of your people

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Speaker 1: talk about like s e oh, it's the same kind

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Speaker 1: of idea with LinkedIn, where if you have a good

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Speaker 1: headline and if you've got and if you have your

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Speaker 1: different roles listed in your experience, listed in your summary,

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Speaker 1: and I'm searching for someone that has your background, I

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Speaker 1: may not have that position posted externally for the world

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Speaker 1: to see, but I might be looking to fill a

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Speaker 1: role for you know, let's say there's someone still in

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Speaker 1: the position at the company that we're backfilling, but we

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Speaker 1: don't want to make that known publicly, or there's some

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Speaker 1: other reason where we don't have the role posted externally.

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Speaker 1: I may be working on a search that you couldn't

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Speaker 1: find and because you're not on the platform, and because

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Speaker 1: you haven't recently updated your profile, you're not coming up

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Speaker 1: in searches, and you're potentially missing out on opportunity. So

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Speaker 1: I hope that's a compelling enough reason, especially for anyone

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Speaker 1: who has thought about making a pivot. And even now,

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Speaker 1: I still just get messages from recruiters and and people

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Speaker 1: that I know about various opportunities, and I'm imagining what

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Speaker 1: it would be like. Actually, I would not be at

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Speaker 1: Google if I was not on LinkedIn. They found me

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Speaker 1: on LinkedIn, and so they tracked you down and your

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Speaker 1: profile on LinkedIn was compelling enough that it landed you

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Speaker 1: a job offer. Well, I mean, I had to beast

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Speaker 1: my way through the interview problems. You know, well, at

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Speaker 1: least at least got your foot in the door forth

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Speaker 1: exactly exactly like that doesn't end. When they contacted me,

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Speaker 1: I thought it was spam. I was like, why is

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Speaker 1: Google reaching out to me in New York for a Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm like, who is this person? Like why are

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Speaker 1: they reaching out? And it turned out to be a

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Speaker 1: real and viable opportunity. And it's I mean, and it's

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Speaker 1: crazy to put this all together. It's the first time

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Speaker 1: I thought about it this way. Where if I'm not

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Speaker 1: on LinkedIn, I don't get contacted by Google, I don't

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Speaker 1: get this opportunity, I don't end up getting out of debt.

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Speaker 1: When I got out of debt, because this opportunity is

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Speaker 1: what allowed me to to have some additional income so

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Speaker 1: that I could start seriously paying off debt and and

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Speaker 1: creating more of the lifestyle that I want for myself.

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Speaker 1: So all of these things come together. I love it

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Speaker 1: all right, So, Rich, we're gonna talk more about getting employed,

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Speaker 1: about specifically to negotiating a specific job offer. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: get to all that right after this break. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're back in the break. We're talking with Rich Jones

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Speaker 1: about negotiating a fatter paycheck in uncertain times. Rich, I

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Speaker 1: love what you were just saying about LinkedIn a lot

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Speaker 1: of helpful information there. People need to get their LinkedIn

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Speaker 1: pages not only up but looking good right especially in

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Speaker 1: this job climate. Um, I want to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about negotiating a job offer right now. Though we were

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Speaker 1: obviously talking about how to find work in a down economy,

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Speaker 1: but what about nego ciating a job offer in recession

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Speaker 1: when the economy is in a tough spot. I think

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Speaker 1: it feels harder for people to ask for more money

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Speaker 1: if they feel like they were low balled after they've

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Speaker 1: been offered a job. Do you have any tips on

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Speaker 1: salary negotiation for folks, especially with the way the job

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Speaker 1: market is right now. What comes to mind first is

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Speaker 1: you have more power than you think. At the point

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Speaker 1: that a company has extended you and offer, they've made

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Speaker 1: it clear that they want you. Even if they low

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Speaker 1: ball they've still made it clear that they want you,

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Speaker 1: and even in a down economy, it is not your

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Speaker 1: responsibility to accommodate them financially because they may be having

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Speaker 1: it tough right now. Your value, in terms of what

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Speaker 1: you bring to the table, that doesn't change because of

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Speaker 1: the current economic state. You've still got those same skills.

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Speaker 1: You're still going to add the value that they know

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Speaker 1: that you're going to add. And I found that people

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Speaker 1: people will almost negotiate on behalf of the company and

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Speaker 1: say stuff like, oh, it's you know, it's really difficult

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Speaker 1: right now. So you know, I read that you know

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Speaker 1: they may be struggling a little bit. So I don't

433
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 1: want to ask for too much. I mean, they would

434
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 1: have no problem asking for whatever they want. I mean,

435
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 1: especially if they've given you a low ball offer. They

436
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 1: had no problem given that to you. So I encourage

437
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 1: people not to back down and lower what you think

438
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: is acceptable for accepting an offer just because we're in

439
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 1: a down economy. And one thing, even before getting to

440
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 1: the offer, one thing I actually advised people and recruiters

441
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 1: hate that. I tell folks this is that if you

442
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 1: can avoid it, don't get into what you've made in

443
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 1: the past. And in many states, companies aren't even allowed

444
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 1: to ask you about your salary history because of pay

445
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 1: equity implications, but there are still companies and states where

446
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: that's very much fair game. So I encourage you, if

447
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 1: at all possible, to take the approach of I'd rather

448
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,159
Speaker 1: learn more about the opportunity, and if we get to

449
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: the offer stage, I trust you guys will make a

450
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,919
Speaker 1: fair market offer, and I'd love to have more of

451
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 1: that conversation then, because as otherwise you find yourself anchoring

452
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 1: to a lower number, you could even throw out a

453
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 1: number that you think is significantly higher than your current gig.

454
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,719
Speaker 1: And I did this when I went from a nonprofit

455
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: to a tech startup, where I kind of forgot that

456
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 1: I've been at this nonprofit for a few years and

457
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: I was at a nonprofit which just does not pay

458
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 1: as much naturally, And when it came time to negotiate

459
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 1: the next offer, I threw a number out there, and

460
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: we went back and forth once and then you know,

461
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 1: I ended up accepting it, and to me, it was

462
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 1: a huge increase. But come to find out, and I

463
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: won't say how I found out, but the person in

464
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 1: that role before me made probably twenty to twenty five

465
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 1: dollars more and when I looked at their LinkedIn, they

466
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: had even less experience than I did. Yes, sold yourself

467
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 1: short in that negotiation, is what you're saying. Yes, yes, well,

468
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 1: thank you? Yes. So I mean what would you have

469
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: done differently, you know, to you know, to have had

470
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: a better idea maybe of what sort of offer like

471
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: you should be expecting. Yeah, I would have throwing a

472
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: number out there, and I think, you know, I think

473
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: I was anchoring very heavily on what I was making

474
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: at that time, and I would have taken the approach

475
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 1: of I'd rather get into the conversation about the offer

476
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: once we get there. I trust that you guys will

477
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,719
Speaker 1: make a fair market offer based on my experience and

478
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: seeing what they came back with and then went from

479
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: there because they got me for a steel, and I

480
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: think they know that they got me for a steel.

481
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 1: And what may happen with some companies, and this particularly

482
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 1: happens at bigger tech companies where they have more defined

483
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: pay ranges, they may come back with like their standard

484
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: baseline offer, and then maybe that's higher than what you expected,

485
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: in which case you're like, oh, okay, their baseline offers

486
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: even higher than what I thought this role was gonna pay,

487
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 1: and you can still make an ask for more. And

488
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: I don't give people a specific percentage like, oh, it

489
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 1: needs to be five percent, ten percent, because there's also

490
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: a lot more to uh the offer than just the

491
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: salary alone. You know, it could be in terms of perks, benefits,

492
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: all of these other things that are super important. So

493
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: I encourage people to try and get as much information

494
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: as they can before they come back with the number

495
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: and before they come back with the request. Now, the

496
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: other thing that I have found extremely helpful kind of

497
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 1: once you get to this number, you don't disclosed salary.

498
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: You see what they throw at you, you come back

499
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: with an ask. With that ask, if you say I

500
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: would be willing to move forward or I would be

501
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: willing to sign this offer today if we can get

502
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: to X, that tells them the magic number for you.

503
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: And since a recruiter or a hiring manager is incentivized

504
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: to get this deal done, more times than not, they're

505
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: gonna go back and try to fight to get that number.

506
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 1: And if they say, hey, here's our best and final,

507
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: then at least you know the true limit of what

508
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: it is that they can do. So not disclosing that

509
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: salary up front. But then also when you do go

510
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: back with an ask and and be serious about it

511
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: when you say it, don't go back and say I'll

512
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: sign the offer today if we can get to X,

513
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: and then you get X and then you say, well,

514
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: actually that is when that is when you put yourself

515
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: at risk of getting the offer pulled, which a lot

516
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: of people just fear. Anyway, a lot of people are

517
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: worried if they just make an ask that the offer

518
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: is gonna get rescinded because we're in a bad economy

519
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 1: and people were even thinking that way before. But recruiters,

520
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: hiring managers, companies were expecting you to make an ask like,

521
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: we've made the offer to you because you're you are

522
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 1: top talent, and we expect that it's not just gonna

523
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: be an easy week extend the offer. You instantly say yes,

524
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: we expect that there's gonna be a little bit of

525
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: back and forth. Let's talk about negotiating a pay why

526
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 1: you currently have a job too, And you know a

527
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: lot of people are getting this standard response right now

528
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: either you know, the pay raises are incredibly minimal, one

529
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 1: to three maybe, and it's like that's all we can

530
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: do case closed. Let's stop talking. And so if you

531
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: have that kind of conversation with your boss, with your employer,

532
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: how can you figure out a way to actually open

533
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: up the negotiating process while you're not actually you know,

534
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: shifting gears or transition to another place of employment, but

535
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: you're just trying to make more where you're currently at. Yeah,

536
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: and this is difficult, and it's going to vary from

537
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: company to company depending on the size industry. But just

538
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: like walking into your manager one day and asking for

539
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: a raise in white collar America, I haven't seen that

540
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: work out very well for a lot of people when

541
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: you just walk in. What if you like come running

542
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: into the office and you like kick the door open, Yeah,

543
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: there you go, then you're probably gonna get esquirted out

544
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: with security. And definitely think the fight club where he

545
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: was like beating himself up. He like closes the door,

546
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: He's like, why are you doing this? The best opportunity

547
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: for negotiation is really gonna come during the performance review season,

548
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: which a lot of us are in right now. And

549
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: I think the best thing you can do is have

550
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: receipts of your contributions and what you've done throughout the year,

551
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: because where I see people really stumble, particularly with performance reviews,

552
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: and if you have to write a self review, or

553
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: even if you don't, people expect that their manager is

554
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: going to remember everything that they've done and contributed throughout

555
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: the year. And I can tell you that having been

556
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: a people manager, not even having a huge team, but

557
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: being a people manager, having all of these other things

558
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: that I'm responsible for myself, trying to remember everything that

559
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: my direct reports have done throughout the year is extremely difficult,

560
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 1: borderline impossible. So I tell people that it is your

561
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: responsibility to keep track of all of the progress and

562
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: all of the accomplishments that you've had throughout the year.

563
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: And so for me, and I realized this isn't specifically negotiation,

564
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: but these will become the receipts that you do use

565
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 1: when you have this conversation. And so for for me,

566
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: I use a project management tool for this called Trella,

567
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: and I tracked all the various projects that I've worked on,

568
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 1: who I'm working with, how those projects turned out, what

569
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: value I added, if I received any positive feedback at

570
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: the end of the project. And so when it comes

571
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: performance review season, all I do is go through my

572
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: quarterly archives of everything that I've done, and pick out

573
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: the contributions and pick out the things that I want

574
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: to highlight, and I can speak specifically to the value

575
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: that I've added. And oh, I can also tell you

576
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: about this feedback that I got from a senior business

577
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: and and this feedback that I got from these various

578
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: folks around me who are also going to become my

579
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: peer reviewers. And when you go in and have that

580
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: conversation with those level of receipts, and you arm your

581
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: manager with the information they need to go to HR

582
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: or the information that they need to go to their

583
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 1: boss and really make that case for you, it's a

584
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: lot easier versus just going in and saying, hey, I

585
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: want more, or just going straight to HR and asking

586
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: for more money. You're really gonna need to have those receipts,

587
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: and there's an element of understanding, like, hey, here's what

588
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: the market is paying. I've also seen people do the

589
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: thing where they will go out and try to secure

590
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: another offer from elsewhere just so that they can bring

591
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: it back to their current company and try and get

592
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: it raised that way. I don't advocate for for doing that,

593
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: but I have seen people um do that as well.

594
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: It seems like a hostile to think can yeah, it's yeah,

595
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: it is. So it is indeed a hostile tactic, and

596
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: I think in some ways it kind of creates I

597
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: won't say bad blood, but if someone on my team, yeah, yeah,

598
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: it kind of sours the trust a little bit. So

599
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: it's like, are they going to do this next year

600
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: to same time? Like you continue to pull this and

601
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: then you're like, how can I effectively work with this

602
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: person in the future. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And I think

603
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: it's it's also important that you know you can't rely

604
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: on your manager to have performance development conversations with you

605
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: and to make expectations clear. Ideally a good manager will

606
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: do that, but you need to understand what does meets

607
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: expectations looks like? What does exceeds expectations look like? What

608
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: do I need to do to operate at that next level,

609
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: so that when you do make that ask, it's not

610
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: a surprise if they say yes or no. And you've

611
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: also made it clear throughout the year and you've stayed

612
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: on track with your manager in terms of expectations, so

613
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: that when it's so that when it does come time

614
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: to make that ask, like you've got the receipts, You've

615
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: got the affirmation throughout the year, and it makes it

616
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: a lot more difficult for them to say no. Yeah,

617
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: what I'm hearing you talk about here is organization. I

618
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: love what you said to about that feedback from superiors

619
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: or from bosses. You know, like if you can talk

620
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: to your manager, it's like, well, hey, your boss, you know,

621
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: the feedback I got from her or from him said

622
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: that this was like the best thing we've done in

623
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: two years. You know, I think that could be really

624
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: really powerful, really and it could have a huge impact, yeah,

625
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: on your ability to get paid essentially what you're worth.

626
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: You know, if, like you said, if you're bringing value

627
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: to a company, you should be compensated for that. And

628
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: I want to ask too rich about loyalty. Sometimes it

629
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: can seem to actually hurt people, like when it comes

630
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: to their salary and their income. So you know, when

631
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: should someone look to jump ship maybe too to another

632
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: company in order for their value to be reflected in

633
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: their income. Yeah, I've seen people and articles say you

634
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: should look to make a move every two years because

635
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,479
Speaker 1: then when you make that change, it's going to be

636
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: realigned to whatever the market rate is and that works.

637
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I think it's about more

638
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: than just that number again, because yeah, I could go

639
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: look for an opportunity at another company and probably make

640
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: more money, but then I also may end up working

641
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: with a manager and a team that I don't like,

642
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: and I may not have access to all the opportunities

643
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: that I do right now, and you've got away the

644
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: cost of that. So is it really just about that number,

645
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: that salary number, because oftentimes what really keeps you at

646
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: a company it isn't just a salary. It's those additional

647
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: benefits where maybe the company has like supreme healthcare options,

648
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: or there's childcare, or if you're in Silicon Valley back

649
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: when people actually were in person, some companies have free breakfast, lunch,

650
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: and dinner, which adds up over time very nice. I

651
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: would love that, yes, yes, Or or there's education reimbursement

652
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: or student loan reimbursement. So there are all these other

653
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: things that go into it that you need to think about,

654
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: because yeah, you could go to another company and be like,

655
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: all right, they're paying me to to your thirty thousand

656
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: dollars more. But when you look at some of the

657
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: benefits and perks that were left on the table, even

658
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: things like stock, and you look at some of the

659
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: things that were left on the table, what you thought

660
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: was a twenty or thirty thousand dollar increase only turns

661
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: out to be like a five thousand dollar increase because

662
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: of all of the other things that you've left on

663
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: the table. So, yes, if you want to keep focusing

664
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: on salaries specifically and boosting that and testing the market,

665
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: then yes, by all means every two to three years

666
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: and do that. But at the same time, if you're

667
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: ultimately looking for long term career stability, you've got to

668
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: consider how it looks on your resume when the appearance

669
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: is that you make a move every two to three years.

670
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: And because as a recruiter, I can tell you that

671
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: I would notice that with with people's profiles where and

672
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: it never proved me wrong, where I would see somebody

673
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: jump from job to job and they would never have

674
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: a period where they were unemployed, but they would jump

675
00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: from job the job almost on schedule. And it's yes, exactly,

676
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: and sometimes it would be even a little bit, uh,

677
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: it will be even a little bit less than two years.

678
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: And you've also got to ask yourself, like how much

679
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: can you really learn and understand about the business and

680
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: really perform at your top level within two years, because

681
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: I've found that it takes you a year just to

682
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: understand like the full business cycle and and encounter the

683
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: full spectrum of things that come up. And so if

684
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: you're bouncing around every one to two years chasing salary,

685
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: how much are you really contributing in and how much

686
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: are you actually growing when you haven't had a chance

687
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: to really become a master at that particular company. But yes,

688
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: if you want to look at boosting salaries specifically, then

689
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: by all means, test the market every two to three

690
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: years and and see what's out there that's I mean,

691
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: that's great stuff. Rich, Work is obviously about so much

692
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: more than just salary. Um, that's one part of it, right,

693
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: And work provides a sense of accomplishment. Um, there's so

694
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: much more than we get from the jobs that we have,

695
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: the co workers, the camaraderie, the ancillary benefits like healthcare

696
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: and and other things too. So I agree, if you're

697
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 1: just looking at that bottom line, that baseline salary number,

698
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: that's a little short sided. Um. We we get some

699
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: more questions for you, though, Rich and including Wenna talk

700
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: a little bit more about the emotional side of money,

701
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: and we'll get to some of our questions about that

702
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: with you right after this break. We are back from

703
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: the break and we are discussing negotiating higher pay with

704
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 1: Rich Jones. Rich, let's talk about not just about negotiating salary,

705
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: but just general money, right, general personal finance. It's not

706
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: just about knowing how to earn and save money, right,

707
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: It's not just the nuts and bolts. There is that

708
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: emotional component to it as well. And you know, at

709
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: the beginning of the the show you mentioned this, but like

710
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: you talk about counselors and therapy and the importance of

711
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: mental health when it comes to our money, and so

712
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: why do you feel this is so important? You know,

713
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: how does mental health and our money? How are they intertwined? Uh,

714
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: They're so intertwined. And I'll give you an example that

715
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: I think kind of brings it home for me. If

716
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: I were to look at my bank statements over the

717
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,959
Speaker 1: course of years, I would be able to tell what

718
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: was going on in my life or how I felt

719
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: about life based off of my spending habits at that

720
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: particular time. And for example, if I'm suddenly splurging on

721
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: you know, alcohol purchases. And I've had stretches like this

722
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: where I'm like, hmm, I was going to the liquor

723
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: store a lot for a couple of months there. Yeah,

724
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: I wonder what was going on, or I know what

725
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: was going on. That was time. Or I noticed I

726
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: stopped buying groceries and instead I started ordering out, like

727
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: I must have been really stressed and it must have

728
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: been a lot going on. Or I um had a

729
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: gym membership and I noticed all these other things, We're

730
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: going really well, and then during this stretch I didn't,

731
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: and I had all of these other kind of discretionary

732
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 1: joy escapist expenses, which could be a lot of things,

733
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 1: particularly in in in California, things probably weren't going well

734
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: at that time. And I found that the way that

735
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: we spend is often a reflection of of what's going

736
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: on in our lives. And so if you're feeling personally

737
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: out of control, then there's a good chance that you're

738
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: spending is also going to be out of control. And uh,

739
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: even just with things like working out, I've noticed that

740
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm at my best when I'm working out because then

741
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: when I'm working out, I'm also eating better because you know,

742
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna go to McDonald's and then get on

743
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: a exercise biker like or or bench pressed like, I'm

744
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 1: gonna feel awful. So when so, when I'm regularly working out,

745
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: I'm eating better. And because I'm eating better, I'm probably

746
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: being more thoughtful about what I'm actually buying for food,

747
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: and I'm actually cooking, so I'm being more thoughtful about

748
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: making a grocery list. And then on top of that,

749
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: because I'm working out and i want to make sure

750
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 1: that I have the energy, I'm also probably sleeping better

751
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: and I'm getting to bed at a good time because

752
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: otherwise I'm gonna feel crappy about my workout. Or I'm

753
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: getting to bed at a good time because I have

754
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: worked out on schedule. So all of these things contribute

755
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: to a cycle. And I find it when you're off mentally, emotionally, physically,

756
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't just affect you in one way. It permeates

757
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: through multiple aspects of your life, and it probably even

758
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: impacts your relationships as well. And uh, I've again, I've

759
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: just noticed that that the stretches where I'm super stressed

760
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: out and I have a lot going on and I

761
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: am an emotional spender I'm also an emotional eater. To me,

762
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: those things are one and the same. And uh, if

763
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: I looked at my spending for the month of October,

764
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: I did, Actually, I did look at my spending for

765
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: the month of October, and what I spent on ordering

766
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: out was like two x what it was the month

767
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: before in September. And that to me tells me that, like, yeah,

768
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: I had a lot going on. I was so stressed

769
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: out that I didn't want to cook. I didn't want

770
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 1: to think about anything. I just wanted to order whatever

771
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: and feel good. And I realized I'm talking a lot

772
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: about food, but that's just one vice that that's just

773
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: one way that people spend money when they're stressed out,

774
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: and that and they don't take care of themselves versus

775
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: when they have ongoing support. So I still two x

776
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: on how I spent in the month of October with

777
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: the therapist. Imagine what it would have been like if

778
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 1: I did not have a therapist. Imagine imagine how much

779
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: more stressed out I would have been if I did

780
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: not have that more uh, routine self care and maintenance

781
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: for me to be able to have conversations about what's

782
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: been going on in my life, you know, sure, Yeah,

783
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: And so it sounds like it's easy to see in

784
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: retrospect looking back at the last month spending how it

785
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: got out of control or that it was out of control.

786
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: And the therapist is one of those kind of helpful

787
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: preventative measures from keep keeping you kind of mentally sane,

788
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,919
Speaker 1: being able to talk with somebody else. Are there any

789
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: other ways that you can kind of um see the

790
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: emotional spending side of you coming out or start to

791
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: recognize the stress ahead of time so you're not looking

792
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: back with regrets like the month month after. Yeah, I

793
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: think for for me, there's a very distinct feeling that

794
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: I get and I ignored this feeling in October and

795
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: that's why I paid the price. But when I get overwhelmed,

796
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: I want to hide. I want to be an escapist.

797
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: I want to get away from whatever is going on.

798
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 1: And what will happen is I start the procrastination and

799
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: there's a very distinct feeling where when I think about

800
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: whatever that particular project is and I and I get

801
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: that feeling in my chest. And for me, it's kind

802
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: of like some people like roller coasters. I hate roller coasters,

803
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: so that feeling when the roller coaster drops that people

804
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: get in their stomach and chest that some people like

805
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: I hate that feeling. And when I'm really stressed or

806
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: i'm dreading a project, I get that same feeling, and

807
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: then that starts to procrastination because the thought of doing

808
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: said thing makes me even more stressed. And then next thing,

809
00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: you know, I've put it off. I put it off,

810
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: put it off, and then I've created this stress train

811
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: for myself. So part of what I've learned is that

812
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: when I first get that feeling that whatever that thing is,

813
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: I need to go do it anyway, because otherwise it's

814
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: just going to continue to build and get worse and

815
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: worse and and it's it's funny how procrastination works that way,

816
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: where you're like, you know what, I'll avoid it, and

817
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: somehow this is gonna make things better, even though I'm

818
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: ultimately making things worse at the same time. So I

819
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: found that, uh, well, as soon as I get that

820
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,479
Speaker 1: first like physical signal, I know, oh, this is going

821
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 1: to lead me down a path that I don't want

822
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: to go down. And I talk a lot about the

823
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: the idea of just breaking the cycle, because we all

824
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: have these cycles, we all have these things in our

825
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: lives where once we start, we know it's like we

826
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: know that the outcome is not going to be good,

827
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: but it's familiar and it's comfortable. And I did have

828
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: a stretch where the the whole alcohol and drinking was

829
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: what was getting a little out of control, and I

830
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: think a lot of people have experienced that, particularly during

831
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: the pandemic. And there was an app that I started using,

832
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: I think it's called UM I Am Sober or something

833
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: like that to be able to track just like days

834
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: of not drinking. And I think right now I'm at

835
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: it's like a hundred and thirty nine or a hundred

836
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: and forty days at the time that we're recording this,

837
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: but within this app, because yeah, I quit on July

838
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 1: one was the last day that I I touched alcohol,

839
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: And this app kind of helps you get a sense

840
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: of how much time you've saved and also how much

841
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: money you've saved. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's something like

842
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: I've saved like over two thousand dollars in that time,

843
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:37,439
Speaker 1: and also I've saved like hundreds of hours by not

844
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: partaking in this thing that was supposed to, at least

845
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 1: in my head, make me feel better. So even making

846
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: lifestyle changes. You might think it's just about like physically

847
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: feeling better, but then you find that, oh wait, it

848
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: also has these other benefits. Now I have more time

849
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: to spend on the things that actually fuel me and

850
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: make me happy. Or oh that money that I was

851
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: using to buy alcohol or whatever else, I can now

852
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: use that money for talk space, or I can use

853
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: that money to uh to have a virtual appointment with

854
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: a therapist, or I can use that money for something

855
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: else that's going to be a bit more productive. And

856
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: I found making making that cut because alcohol is a

857
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: cycle in itself. I think anyone who's had to hangover

858
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: and knows how this goes, and they talk about the

859
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: hair of a dog, like, oh, you wake up from

860
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: a hangover, what do you do? Drink more? Okay, Now,

861
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: all you're doing is delaying that hangover until the next day.

862
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: And and and by the way, I am not discouraging

863
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: people from consuming beverages, particularly craft beverages as as you

864
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: guys like I'm just about balance. But yeah, yeah, I'm

865
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: I'm just saying for for me, you know, picking up

866
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: the first drink and you know, like this is what

867
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: I need to to relax and distress like that just

868
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: starts a cycle, and eliminating that cycle has freed me

869
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 1: up tremendously. And I think all the opportunity is even

870
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: all the stuff that came up in September that carried

871
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: into October, all lit those positive things that stressed me out,

872
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of that stuff happens if

873
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: I don't make the decision that that I made on

874
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: July one. I think I'm probably slower responding to messages,

875
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not as on point when talking to people.

876
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: I'm not getting things done at the speed that I

877
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: should be getting them done. So making that lifestyle change

878
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: ended up I think playing a really big role in

879
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: creating opportunities for myself and also creating stress. But I

880
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: had control over that because I said yes a few

881
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: times when I said when I should have said no,

882
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: And no one's probably the the ultimate way to perform

883
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: self care. That's a good point. Yeah, Well, and you

884
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: probably would have said yes even more, you know, like

885
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: you said, had you not been as in control of

886
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: your life at that point. You know, what I hear

887
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: you saying is is just all about kind of leaning

888
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,919
Speaker 1: into that discomfort as soon as you notice it. Versus

889
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: kind of kicking that can you know down the road?

890
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: It never worked? Yeah, it never works, man, it never works.

891
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: I have not procrastinated on something, and I've I've I've

892
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: procrastinated and had things turn out well, but it could

893
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 1: have been so much easier. Like I've made things a

894
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: lot more stressful on myself than they needed to be.

895
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 1: And this isn't like college where everything needs to be like, oh,

896
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: I'm a pull up all night are and get it

897
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: done because that works. Like as I get older, that

898
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 1: doesn't work anymore. Too old for that, man, Yeah, yeah,

899
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm too old. Yeah, I'm too washed for this. I

900
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: can't be like doing these two am, three am and

901
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: then getting up at seven and being sharp on video

902
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: all day. You know, it's it's it's hard done work,

903
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 1: that's right, Rich dude. Your vulnerability, your wisdom, and your

904
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: inside has been so helpful. Man, We're so thankful that

905
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: you joined us on the podcast for this conversation. Can

906
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: you tell our listeners where they can find out more

907
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: about you and what you're up to? Yeah, so you

908
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 1: can find all things Paychecks and Balances at paychecks and

909
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: Balances dot com, also on Twitter and Instagram at pay balances,

910
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: and if you are interested in the career side of

911
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: things and you are thinking about making a career pivot.

912
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: I do have a free five step guy to changing

913
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: your day Job at change your Day Job dot com.

914
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: So I encourage folks to check that out as well.

915
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: And uh, I do respond on social media and I

916
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 1: do respond to emails. So if you go to the

917
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: website you want to drop a note, you have a question,

918
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: I will get back to you and I won't stress

919
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: myself out in the process, and I might even say

920
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: no to protect myself if you ask. There you go.

921
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: I love that. That's a great way to wrap things up. Rich,

922
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: thanks so much for talking to us today. Man, I

923
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: appreciate you having me. This was a lot of fun.

924
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: All right, Matt, that was such a great conversation with Rich.

925
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: What a cool dude with an awesome voice for podcasting.

926
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 1: I gotta say, flew us out of the water. True.

927
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: It's got that nice, deep, smooth voice, which is the

928
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: exact opposite of my voice when I get excited, a

929
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: little little screechy sometimes, right, I think it does reach

930
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: into those higher frequencies. Yeah, but sometimes sometimes All right,

931
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: let's get to our big takeaways. For this episode. Obviously

932
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: a great conversation, a lot of wisdom shared from Rich,

933
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: But what was your big takeaway from this episode? Well,

934
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: for me, man, having, like I mentioned during the episode,

935
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: like having been self employed for basically my entire adult life,

936
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: I approached these conversations with folks who have been in

937
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: the kind of the corporate tech world with a lot

938
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: of curiosity, and I'm like, Okay, what does it look

939
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: like to actually negotiate your salary? Like I've negotiated contracts

940
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: and I've you know, SEP rates and prices and that

941
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: kind of thing, but I've never sat down with an

942
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: HR manager or you know, your potential future boss and

943
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: kind of talked about how much you're gonna make. And

944
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: I think it can be easy on one hand for

945
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: me to sit here and be like, oh, I think

946
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: I would do a great job, But when I haven't

947
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: been in that situation, I think it would be easy

948
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: to almost make excuses for the employer. He talked about

949
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: that how you almost do the work for them if

950
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: you kind of start talking yourself out of asking for

951
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 1: a little bit more, or specifically to not disclose how

952
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: much it is that you currently make. And so that's specifically,

953
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: my big takeaway, and that's to avoid that conversation. Certainly

954
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: continue the conversation by talking about how you're interested in

955
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: moving forward, talking about what this could mean, you know,

956
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: I guess using all that sort of interview language. Yeah, yeah,

957
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: I was. I was impressed with the way Rich said

958
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: it because he wasn't just like now I'm telling you that,

959
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 1: Like he had a specific language like thought out for actually,

960
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: I'd prefer to wait until this moment in time, and

961
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: I have full confidence that you guys will make a

962
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: wonderful offer. And like it's the way you say it, right,

963
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: is so disarming as well. Like like as he was

964
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: saying that, I was like, oh, I feel at ease,

965
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, like hearing him say this, because it doesn't

966
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: feel threatening. It doesn't feel even like you said a

967
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: more sort of hostile kind of tactic. It just feels

968
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: like something where you're having a conversation. It's a healthy conversation,

969
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: and it's something that by the end of it, both parties,

970
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 1: you know, will hopefully be able to agree on something

971
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: that's mutually beneficial. And so I found that really interesting.

972
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 1: In my specific big takeaway, if you're looking at a job, offered.

973
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: Don't go into the conversation being anchored to your previous salary.

974
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, how about you? What was yours? Well? I

975
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: like that one. That one's really good. I think it's

976
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: specifically in the job offer negotiation of what riche when

977
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: he said, you have more power than you think you do.

978
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: A job offer means they want you, and so I

979
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: think he's so right. A lot of a lot of

980
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: us would get a job offer and we'd be like,

981
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 1: maybe maybe a little meek about it, might be like,

982
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: thank you, oh man, this is so great, but we'd

983
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: also be worried that it could be pulled back at

984
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 1: any moment if we push back in any way when

985
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: it comes to compensation. And no, it's like they want you,

986
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: And so pushing back for more money is not adversarial.

987
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: It's really just knowing what you're worth and standing up

988
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: for that. And so I think that's helpful to know

989
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: that you're actually still in the driver's seat. You're still

990
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: in a position of power when you have a job

991
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: offer in hand, and you can use that in order

992
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: to score hopefully more pay. All right, let's mention the

993
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: beer that we had on the show today. This one

994
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: was called Boss of the Planes. It's a West Coast

995
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: I p A by Fieldwork Brewing. This one was sent

996
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: to us by our friend Tim and we actually worked

997
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: with him recently. We did a webinar for his company

998
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: and he was nice enough to send us a couple

999
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 1: of beers at the same time. Matt, what was your

1000
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: take on this beer? Man? Yeah, that's right. This is

1001
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: another one out of California. Know, this one specifically brewed

1002
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: there in Berkeley, California. Man, I really enjoyed it. I'll

1003
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: say the first thing that I noticed when I poured

1004
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: this beer was that the label art matched the color

1005
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: of the beer. And I like it when that happens.

1006
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: So on the actual label here, it's got like this

1007
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: image of the desert, but specifically it's got some buttes

1008
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: on it, you know, like these nice tall jutting out

1009
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: of the plains, kind of red clay orange looking buttes.

1010
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: And that's the exact color of the beer. This was

1011
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: a golden orange West Coast I p A had that

1012
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: classic West Coast flavor profile going on, but at the

1013
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: same time, it wasn't overly bitter. It's not one of

1014
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: those palette wreckers that kind of leaves you kind of

1015
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,399
Speaker 1: limping home. You know, this is a kind of beer

1016
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: you can sit down enjoy. I feel like this would

1017
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: almost be a good I PA to have with a meal.

1018
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: A lot of times, some of the beers we drink

1019
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: are so specific in flavor that it makes you not

1020
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 1: want to drink those beers while you're having a meal

1021
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 1: because the flavors can like conflict sometimes. But I feel

1022
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: this one kind of has one of those classic flavor

1023
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: is that you could actually enjoy during a meal. Yeah.

1024
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: I'm usually a post dinner beer guy, not not a

1025
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: with dinner beer guy. And that's precisely the reason, because

1026
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 1: the beers I often drink are just like overpowering and

1027
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: so a lot of flavor. Having it with the meal

1028
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: just um, it doesn't work very well. But yeah, this beer,

1029
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: it's got a great flavor. It's delicious, but at the

1030
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: same time it's not too much, and so you could

1031
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: have it with with dinner and not be upset about it.

1032
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, I like this beer a lot. Big thanks

1033
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: to Tim for sending this one our way. Yeah, thanks

1034
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: against him. And yeah, this is the kind of beer

1035
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: that you can enjoy during a meal, but also while

1036
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: you are recording a podcast exactly perfectly. That too, all right,

1037
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: So that's gonna be it for this episode. Listeners can

1038
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: find our show notes up at how some money dot com,

1039
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 1: and we'll be sure to link to riches uh sites

1040
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: and podcasts as well. If you're interested in learning more

1041
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: about him, check it out. Yeah. Well also actually linked

1042
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 1: to the I Am Sober app that he mentioned. Yeah,

1043
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: we don't talk very much about drinking on the podcast. Man,

1044
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: we we obviously have a beer every time, But I

1045
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: think the way Rich is being thoughtful in how he

1046
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,120
Speaker 1: approaches alcohol is incredibly wise. And so if you found yourself,

1047
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: especially in the pandemic, maybe drinking a little too much, um,

1048
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: this app could potentially be helpful, and it could also

1049
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: incentivize you seeing how much time and money you're saving.

1050
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: I love that. I hadn't thought about that, And I

1051
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: know a lot of people choose October or January as

1052
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: months to uh to not drink any alcohol at all.

1053
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 1: We're past October, but January is just around the corner,

1054
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: so it could be just a perfect time to say,

1055
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm not gonna drink for a little while,

1056
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: save yourself some money, and maybe be a little more

1057
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: productive too. So all right, Matt, that's gonna do it

1058
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 1: for this episode until next time. Best Friends Out, Best

1059
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:29,959
Speaker 1: Friends Out,