WEBVTT - Tony Levin 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.560 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:18.720 My guest today is Bassis Extraordinary Tony Levin. Tony, you 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:20.440 have a new album. Tell us about it? 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:22.759 Well, I will, and first of all, thanks for having 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.159 me on. Great to speak to you and great to 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.319 have a chance to talk about my album. I'm a 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:29.760 bass player. It's called Bringing It Down to the Bass, 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.279 kind of fitting title, and I've been working on it 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.199 for years. And the reason I've been working on it 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.760 for years is I have this big problem, which is 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:41.400 a wonderful problem. I love playing on the road and 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:43.199 I get a lot of chance to tour with King 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.559 Crimson and Peter Gabriel and stick Man and Leven Brothers. 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:49.839 So because of that, I keep getting going on the 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:53.159 album and that's stopping. But this year I resolved to 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:55.120 take a few months and finish it up, get some 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.320 great drummers on. It's some of my great musician friends, 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.760 and I got to finish. It'll be out September thirteenth. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:04.560 Tell me more about the album itself. 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:08.920 Largely instrumental. Sometimes I'm moved to do a vocal, but 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.440 usually it's in a comedic way. I either either speak 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.720 a poem or there's one track I decided to, Hey, 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.480 what if I did a vocal song with a chorus 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.080 of me singing only using the names of drummers I 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.360 played in played with Excuse me. I spent the whole 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:26.280 of the Lockdown year doing that because I didn't have 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.559 a whole lot else to do. So there's that piece 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.160 called on the Drums, which just has drummers names for 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:35.000 the lyrics. And on most of the pieces I try, 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.000 I started them out with trying to find a bass 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.800 groove or a bass sound, or a technique like a 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.959 fingernail playing or funk fingers. This way, I played the 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.240 bass and I began the composition with that. Then I 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.640 spent some time finishing it the composition, and then then 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:52.600 things got good because I turned it over to some 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:54.440 of the great players I know to join me on 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:54.880 the album. 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:59.800 Okay, when you say you turned it over to players, 0:01:59.920 --> 0:02:01.880 you sent him the tracks and said do what you 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:03.280 want to. Yeah. 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.400 My way of doing this is to pick the right 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.320 player and not have to tell him what to play, 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:12.440 because he's the guy I wanted on and especially with drummers. 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.000 The drummers I know, the excellent drummers, they don't love 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.800 being told what to play, and there's no need if 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.520 you want that drummer. So each each piece, as I 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.920 got really the sense of it, and I finished my 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.880 bass part, I thought, well, of the many great drummers 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:28.839 I know, who would be the guy I would want 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.000 on this? Maybe it was Steve Gadd, my old friend, 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.919 or Mono Kach whom I tour with with Peter Gabriel 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.520 and any others. Vinnie Keludo and I chose that player, 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:39.600 and luckily they all said yes, and I sent them 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:40.400 the files. 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.400 Okay, you talk about doing this during lockdown? Were the 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.080 songs written during lockdown? Or it was type of thing 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.560 where you were accumulating stuff for years and you finally 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:50.240 laid it down. 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.000 A good question, and the answer is all of the above. 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.440 What the one I took the whole of the lockdown 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.799 here was that were really quirky? One where I used 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.120 the names of I just had pieces of paper all 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.920 over the place with names of drummers that might not 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:05.520 rhyme with each other, but that might go together in 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.359 a certain section. Some of these pieces I wrote quite 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:12.560 a while ago. There's one poem about just chatman stick 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:14.480 as an instrument I play and there's one with me 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.280 reciting this poem about John Lennon and playing the Chapman Stick. 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:20.760 And there are others that I composed as recently as 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:21.440 two months ago. 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.959 Okay, so you're in the studio. What do you actually 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.160 lay down on it's not tape anymore, on the hard 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.600 drive or the solid state drive before you send it 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.240 to someone? How much is there? 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.760 These are really great questions. I appreciate it, and they're 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:40.960 making me think about how we do it. It turns out 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:45.040 it varies a whole lot. There's one one or two 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.480 pieces that I just did the bass to a click track, 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:49.520 so there's a tempo, and then I sent it to 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:51.880 the drummer, and then I sent that after he did it, 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.160 I sent that to the other players. However, there's somewhere 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:57.840 I did every part except for the drums, because the 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.320 Chapman Stick can also play guitar parts, and then I 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.600 began thinking about what guitar player to have really play 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:09.840 what I envisioned and likewise, so a wide variety of 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.000 ways to do it, and I probably over the few 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:13.840 years I've been working on this, I probably did all 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:14.800 of those varieties. 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:21.840 Okay, do you ever call somebody you don't know, or 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.320 everybody who's on the record you have a pre existing 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:25.240 relationship with. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.960 In this case, I know all of the folks. Yeah, 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:31.680 and I know they're playing very well. I know I 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.359 know them. Maybe we've been on the road together, but 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.440 I know they're playing, and that's why I chose them 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:39.640 for the particular song. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:46.000 Now, you mentioned three different drummers, my new Gad Calayuta. 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.919 What's the difference as a bass player between those drummers? 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.960 All right, how many hours do we have have because 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:59.080 we'll see, Yeah, we bass players and drummers really spend 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:03.039 our time together, are learning or then enjoying each other's 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:07.920 feel and the slight differences that nobody else knows between us. So, 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:10.640 by the way, there are much many more drummers than 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.799 that Mike Portnoy played on the album. Pat Mascellato, Jeremy Stacey, 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:19.240 and Jerrey Maratta. Uh yeah, some guys, some of the 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.640 I'll only speak about the really excellent players. Each of 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:28.160 them has their own feel really different than other players. Ideally, 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.799 each of them is going to play within the time 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:32.680 parameters we have, in other words, that are going to 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:34.919 speed up or slow down. Most of the guys that 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.000 I work with do not do that. So within those 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.679 parameters or rules, there's a lot of space for playing 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:43.960 on top of the beat or behind the beat, and 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.560 how you phrase things and how how Some drummers will 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.240 will make the whole kit sound like one instrument, but 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:56.960 others h Manu, Vinni Caliro will, Steve gadd also will 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.840 articulate some of the the element of the drum kit 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.600 more than others, so it feels not like a drum kit. 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.720 It feels like better really kind of like a drum 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.920 kit that it is alive. And let me just tell 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.400 a short story. I toured with Peter Gabriel when he 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.640 did a joint tour with Sting in twenty sixteen, and 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.760 the two bands alternated songs, but I stayed on stage 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:24.240 because I love being on stage during Stings stuff. And 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.239 I was standing or sitting right in front of Vinnie 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.919 Caludo playing drums, So there I was sitting on his 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.159 riser through all of the Stink pieces. It was a 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:36.440 great thrill for me and actually a learning learning experience 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:41.080 because that's when I realized how much subtle phrasing he's 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:42.960 doing within the part that he's playing. 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.320 I'm gonna ask a really dumb question about to ask 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:51.279 it anyway. What's the difference between Jerry Murrada and Rick Murata. 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.960 Well, Rick's a little older. I began playing with Rick 0:06:56.360 --> 0:07:00.480 way back when I was a studio musician, and he 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.280 he is a great drummer. But he kind of moved 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.400 on even beyond studio playing and moved to Los Angeles 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.840 and became a writer for TV stuff and very successful 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:14.559 at that and a very good producer. His younger brother Jerry, 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:16.640 maybe not so young anymore, but still to me, the 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.880 baby in the family, the younger Jerry. I toured with 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.720 a great deal I think the first Peter Gabriel tour. No, 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.680 the second one needed a drummer. The first drummer drummer 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:28.240 the first tour didn't want to do it anymore, and 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.520 Peter asked me who we should use, and I said, well, 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.000 my good friend Rick Murrauda would be great for that. 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:38.040 And Rick was busy and suggested his younger brother, Jerry Murta. Hence, 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:40.880 I asked Peter to use Jerry in the band and 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:42.800 it worked out really well for a number of tours 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:44.960 in a number of years. And by the way, they 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:51.320 play with a field that's similar but quite different. I 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.960 don't think I'll waste everybody's time by analyzing everything about it. 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.240 But I can tell hearing a record of them, which 0:07:58.280 --> 0:07:58.760 one it is. 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.400 Okay. You know, in this world, people are always saying, 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.600 you know, this person's the best, that person's the best, 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:11.040 certainly in terms of you know, guitarists, but also bassis 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.240 and drummers. Is that something you can even apply to 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.480 these people? Or at this level, everybody's great and their 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:18.720 sound is a little bit different. 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.040 I don't think it's about the sound or about the level. 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.320 It's about who's making that decision. So I know about 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.760 my One thing I know about is bass playing. Another 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.840 thing I know about is myself. And I don't tend 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:34.320 towards having favorites of anything or thinking that anything is 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:39.280 the best, except a football team or something that's provably 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:43.080 the best. So with the arts, with painters, with writers, 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:48.439 with musicians, with drummers, I'm capable of really thoroughly enjoying 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.520 bass players. I hear, for instance, many of the bass players, 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.280 and I'm not moved to pick a favorite or even 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.720 begin to think who's the best. I don't think there's 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.199 any such thing among us musicians. 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:04.400 Now you know, everything's totally findable online. So you're in 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:08.000 your late seventies, most people they want to get off 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.640 the road. What do you like so much about being 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:12.320 on the road. 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.960 That's very simple. It's the two hours or three hours 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:17.760 a night that I get to play the music that 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:20.480 I love to play. That's why as a child I 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.320 decided to be a bass player, hoping i'd get to 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.360 play good music with good players. How lucky I am 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.000 that I do that. Yes, the other twenty two hours 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.880 a day have got more difficult, and as you get older, 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:36.120 they're still a little more difficult, and especially not because 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.719 of age, but the last few years travel We all 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.040 know travel has become hard or more fraught. But those 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.360 do those two hours make up for it more than that. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.840 Those two hours are priceless, and we are I know 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.760 at this age, how lucky I am. How lucky anyone 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:55.000 is who can not only play the music they really 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.000 like and get an audience that enjoys that music to 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.679 come and it and share the music with them, but 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.480 actually do it professionally and actually make a living from it. 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:06.760 Very special, very lucky. 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.120 Some superstar bands what they do when they go on tour, 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:15.040 they'll base in Atlanta Chicago, and they'll take it jet 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.960 to every date, so they stay in the same bed. Now, 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.040 when you tour with Peter Gabriel, how do you do it? 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:24.880 The last few tours there was Yes, there was a 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.720 private jet, which involves a whole lot of interesting factors, 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.960 like doing what we call a runner off stage. I 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.600 would prefer to meet my many friends who came to 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.920 the show in a hospitality room, hang out and use 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.120 that wonderful energy you have when you come off stage 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.400 because something very special has happened. I would prefer to 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:45.520 stay in town. That's not what the band does. We 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.120 don't run off stage, but we walk off stage. But 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.480 then we put a robe over ourselves and jump into 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.360 a van and go to the nearest airport fly either 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.560 to a hub, as you said some bands do that, 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:58.880 or to the next city, so we wake up in 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:00.800 the next city that we're going to play in, which 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.120 has big advantages to it. Of course, if it was 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.360 up to me, I would stay in the town, but 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.960 I believe me, I do plenty of other kinds of 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.120 tours with Stickmen Jief. Sometimes we go looking for the 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.319 hotel after the show. We haven't even had time to 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.840 check in, and sometimes we leave very early in the 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.320 morning for a long drive to the next town. So 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.800 we have private jet is way better than that. I 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:26.520 would add that being a professional musician, some of the 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.120 job and some of the life is being adaptable to 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.000 those two situations where you're at the top of the 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:35.800 world and everybody's excited about you, and you're at the 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.439 bottom of the world. I have lots of experience in 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:42.800 my career, including recently, when suddenly the bottom falls out 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.559 and you're sitting in the corner of an airport waiting 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.360 for someone to pick you up. We didn't show up, 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.200 and suddenly you realize you don't know where your hotel 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.240 room is, or what you're going to do for dinner, 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:56.720 or you don't have any money of that currency. Those 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:58.040 things happen all the time to us. 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.000 Okay, you play on stage for a couple of hours, 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:08.600 that's a very intense experience. You really want to talk 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:10.200 to people after the show? 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:17.760 Actually, good question in some situations, Yes, in the hospitality 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.520 room without too many people. Yes. What are we do 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.480 in smaller bands now, which is most of the bands 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.800 I play in what we call merch the selling of 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.360 CDs and tour. T shirts is a necessary part of 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.600 the tour because all the expenses went up. The gas 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.040 went up, hotels went way up, but the price were 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.680 paid by the club didn't go up. Okay, that's no problem. 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:41.800 Well that's a bit of a problem. But if we 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:45.040 sell enough CDs and merch, if we come out the 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.600 same at the end of the day, and so to 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:50.959 enhance that, we'll have a table out in the entrance 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:53.720 way and we'll go out there at some point. Myself, 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.280 I like to grab a sip of wine first to 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.360 kind of finish off the music part of the But 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.360 then yeah, we go out to sign and sometimes if 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.640 we have to take pictures with people wearing a mask 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:08.400 is an issue for me. I try to be safe 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:10.520 and not pass on germs one night to another, and 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.480 certainly don't shake hands and pass on germs in that way. 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:15.520 So there's a lot to it. It's a little bit fraud, 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.240 but there's something we do, okay, So that do I 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.960 love that. No, I do it, and I'm okay with it. 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.360 But what I would rather do is have finished the 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.439 couple classes of wine and then go into a backstage 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.560 room that has maybe ten friends or family or even 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:32.480 fifteen or twenty, but not fifty. 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.280 Okay, let's say you're running an arena tour, not that 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.079 it really matters in this case. You play for two hours, 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.199 you're done at eleven o'clock. How long until you can 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:44.920 fall asleep? 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.760 These are good questions me a long time, but I've 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.720 I've used I've learned to use that time in ways 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.440 that work for me. I keep a road diary online 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.400 with lots of photos I take during the day, so 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:01.760 when I finally get whenever it is I get to 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.800 that hotel room, I will work for an hour or 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:08.400 two on Photoshop a lot, downloading the pictures, seeing what 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.640 I've got, maybe writing a little redal diary about it, 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.360 and hopefully when I wake up in the morning, I'm 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.800 I have it in shape to upload the right pictures. 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.160 So I, frankly I enjoyed that. I really love that 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.080 the web. One thing about the web is that I 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:24.960 found out in the nineties I was early to have 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.120 a web page, and it seemed that it took down 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:32.800 some of the barrier between our artists and the audience, 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.600 and it allowed fans who happen to see it to 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.120 see an experience, not only what's backstage, but actually how 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.160 they look to us on stage and allowed them to 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.680 get it, how important they are to us who perform. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.160 So it's worth the because I enjoy it. It's worth 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.480 an hour or two after the show. When I get 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.800 back to the hotel room and let me just say this, 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:55.880 we're going to talk I hope a little about the 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.240 Beat tour that's coming up starting. Oh believe we were 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.720 getting there a bus tour. The band is traveling by bus, 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:04.600 and that's that's a whole different thing. So when you 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.080 say hit the bed, you're hitting the bus. And some 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.160 guys just can't sleep on the bus. I sort of can. 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.120 But those two hours, at least two hours, I'll be 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.080 doing photoshop, either in the lounge room depends on how 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.000 loud the music is there, how much it distracts me, 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:23.920 or I'll crawl into my bunk and with my laptop. 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.680 So, you know, I know people who've been you know, 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.640 household names have been on tour for a year straight 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.800 and it took them a year to recover. Now you know, 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.600 everything's changing. People say, you know, all the scientific studies 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.160 say you really do need eight hours of sleep. There's 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.560 a badge of honor sleeping little. But the nature of 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.480 the game. Are you always trying to catch up on 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:55.680 sleep or if you've done this long enough to figure 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:57.160 out how to get enough shut eye? 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.840 Good question for me. It's not about sleep. Maybe for 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.960 some people it is, I think for singers. I've heard 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.640 Paul Simon Wentz told me not too long ago, too 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:08.920 many years ago, that he needs twelve hours of sleep 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.760 for his voice to be okay on tour. Me I 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.720 don't have that problem, and I'm one of those people 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.360 who can't sleep more than six hours. Maybe I read 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:19.200 the article you were talking about, but what I never 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.160 read is, Okay, I don't sleep eight hours. How do 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.400 I get to sleep eight hours? Drinking a sip of 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.720 milk before bed won't do it. So I just never 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:32.920 sleep more than six And if some night on the 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.200 road I only get four hours, that's not really a problem. 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.120 I don't do all nighters the way I used to 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:38.400 be able to do. That's for sure. 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:41.840 Well they do say in the articles is some people 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.040 just don't need that much sleep. It's not the majority, 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:46.000 but that's one of you. 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:47.960 What if you need it but you can't do it, 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:50.560 the body wakes up. 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.640 That's a whole another thing. Okay, you talk about alcohol. 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.480 You've been doing this for decades. What has your history 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:00.640 been with drugs and alcohol? 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.560 Wow, getting right to the deep stuff. I never was 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.400 a drug guy. I can I drink moderately. I think 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.119 I think there was a tour or two where I 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:13.280 was not happy for various reasons, and I drank more 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.800 than moderately. Didn't get drunk every night or anything like that. 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.280 I mean, there's no fun in my answers about drugs 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:23.800 and alcohol. And in fact, I haven't been in many 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.040 bands where the other guys were doing drugs and alcohol. 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.800 I don't want to go through every individual on every tour. 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.600 I've got really a lot of tours, but generally the ones, 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.600 you know what, fans of King Crimson probably realized that 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:40.000 the band is playing such difficult music that we're we 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.400 just wouldn't be capable of playing that show if we 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.520 were less than one hundred percent. In fact, that's a 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.639 band that needs days off between shows and needs to 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:52.920 have there to be rested, because any mental laps will 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.360 mess up the whole rest of the band's The pieces 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.280 are not in four to four, so if somebody gets 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:00.200 off an eighth note, there's no way for any anyone 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:01.919 else does say one through three, four years where you are? 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.119 And the secret to me seems to be for us 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:06.199 all to stay rested. 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:13.160 Now today many people are follically challenged shave their heads. Well, 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.879 for whatever reason, you had a shaved head and a mustache, 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.960 you know, decades and decades ago. My question is to 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.480 what degree when you're out and about are you recognized? 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.600 Good question? Again, it varies if I'm playing in the town, 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:32.760 if I'm playing with Peter Gabriel or King Crimson in 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.240 the town, I'm likely to get recognized a bit walking 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.520 around in the streets. If I'm not playing there, I 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.159 never get once in a while, but very rare for 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:44.119 me to be recognized. There was once I was a 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:52.040 customs going into Italy and not yeah customs, and the 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.040 guy wanted to go through all my stuff, even I had, Hey, 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:59.400 what do you call it? A bar of shaving? Not cream, 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.360 but it's all soap bar and he wanted to cut 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.840 it in half. I thought, I don't mind that that 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.000 that's pretty extreme. And then I heard him, he speaking Italian, 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.840 and I heard him say there's something to his associate, 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.800 and he mentioned pink Floyd, and I realized that he 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.800 was just enjoying being spending some time with one of 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.159 the guys who would have recorded with Pink Floyd. He 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:22.080 didn't hear me, He didn't know that. I heard him 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:23.840 say that I. 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.119 Know someone who was a photographer for Led Zeppelin, and 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.119 don't forget this before digital And he said, I've been 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:34.760 around the world and seen nothing. So you've been around 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.600 the world. You know, you're writing, taking pictures. You the 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.080 type of person. Oh, I'm in Prague. There's somewhere I 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.800 want to go in Prague. Many people you know, this 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:44.760 is a classic line in rock and roll. You know, 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.679 Hello Cleveland, and there in Chicago, they got no idea 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.720 where they are. What kind of guy are you? 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.120 It's all true. I try, when I used to try 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.040 harder than I try now. It depends on the schedule, 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.240 but generally there is no time. Sometimes there's no time 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.040 to see even a street downtown. You just go right 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.040 to the venue. You do your sound check, you do 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:08.800 your setup for the show, you have dinner backstage, you 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:10.920 play your show, and then you either go somewhere else. 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.440 So you go to hotel at midnight and you wake 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.400 up at eight o'clock and leave eight am and leave 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.200 for somewhere else. Yeah, that happens a lot. Of course. 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:20.960 I have, as you said, been I had it a 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.359 long time, and I've made the rounds a lot, and 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:26.320 sooner or later I'll have a day off in most 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.800 places and try to enjoy it. Do I have the 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:33.000 initiative and energy to go to museums and things like that? No, 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.760 I'm not that guy. I wish I was, but I'm not. 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:38.800 So if you have a day off, what do you do? 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:41.639 A lot of times I have friends. I'll meet him 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.639 for a meal or hang out. Sometimes I'll go to 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:46.560 a club and hear another band that's a treat and 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:52.080 inn a rarity. And sometimes it really depends where it is. 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:53.600 If it's Italy, I'm going to go out for as 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:55.240 many meals as i can, and I'm going to meet 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.080 friends because I've been there a lot and have a 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:59.000 lot of friends. And if it's someplace I haven't been, 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.680 I'll hopefully the hotel is downtown and I'll just take 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.320 a walk and really spend hours walking around and taking photos. 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:11.159 I have found in my travels, which are not as 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:16.480 extensive as yours, that the places where people don't speak English. 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:21.080 I find those exotic places are the most interesting, you know, 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:25.320 whether it be Bogata, Brazil, India. What are the couple 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:27.320 of fascinating places you've been to? 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:33.080 Oh hard to think back on, you know. I've been 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.080 a lot of places I have been, not to Bogata 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:40.040 and not to India, actually almost to India. My friend 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:42.640 Shankar asked me to do a tour with him once 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.080 quite a while ago. Uh, and I just didn't feel 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:48.600 comfortable about the fact that I didn't have a visa. 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:50.720 He said, oh, we'll get you that when you get here. 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:52.760 And I didn't have an itinerary. He said, oh, we'll 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:54.159 do that when you get here, and I said, you 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:58.399 know what, that's just too deep, a diving into a 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.560 deep pool that I don't want to take a chance on. 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:04.880 So it didn't. I can't remember one place that stands out, 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:06.520 but I've had a lot of great times and a 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:10.040 lot of great places, especially maybe especially as a photographer. 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.680 So for instance, in La Paz, when I'm on the 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:16.840 tram that people get around on because it's so hilly 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.960 and it's the altitude is extremely high, then I could 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:25.119 get amazing photos to me of the tram coming the 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:27.719 other way with a lady in it with that kind 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.879 of very distinctive hat that they wear in Bolivia that 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:33.680 looks like old fashioned, but that's the way they go 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:35.720 around on the streets. So stuff like that I get 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:37.760 a big kick out of. And by the way, when 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:39.720 I have a chance to share those photos on the 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:43.520 road diary or once every decade putting out a photo book, 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:48.119 I really enjoy the chance to share with others, with fans, 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.400 especially what it's like behind the scenes on tour. 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:54.440 So how'd you get into photography? 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.400 I don't remember. It was so long the earth was cooling. 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:01.160 There was this stuff called film, and there was no digital. 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:04.560 Oh gosh, I don't know, But I do know from 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:07.280 the time. I know from thinking back on my photos 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:09.560 that from the time I joined King Crimson, which is 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:13.680 nineteen eighty one, I was pretty intent on documenting, really 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:16.159 for myself, documenting what was going on. I know that 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.280 because the first show we played was in Bath in 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.240 a club called Moles in nineteen eighty one, and I 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:26.120 set up a tripod with a foot pedal, an analog 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.480 foot pedal to choose air into a trigger that would 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:31.560 trigger the pick, and I wanted very much to get 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:34.200 a picture of the first note that I played with 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:37.399 King Crimson in that context, and I did so. By 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.680 that time, the early eighties, I was pretty intently into it. 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:43.600 Let me just say another story about the same almost 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:47.360 the same year. One regret I have about the John 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:52.480 Lennon Yoko Ono albums that I did very quickly was 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:54.320 I had my camera with me. Of course, that was 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:58.600 in late nineteen eighty and on a break in the 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:01.159 control room, John and Yoko were listening to playback and 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:03.240 I came in with my camera and I said to John, 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:06.240 do you mind if I take a photo? And he said, well, yes, 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:09.000 I'd rather you didn't. I do mind, And that was fine. 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:11.960 But I'm kicking myself. That was nineteen eighty I'm still 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:15.680 kicking myself because the professional photographer would have taken the 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:18.040 picture and then asked, and I'm sure he wouldn't have 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:20.480 booted me off the session for doing that. He would 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:22.800 have just said, please don't do that, and I would 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:25.040 have that one picture that I don't have from that 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:27.080 very special experience. 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:31.560 Yes, but anyone who has met famous names and is 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:35.680 meeting them as opposed to on the meet and greet level. No, 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:40.040 there are certain rules and you don't violate those rules. 0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:43.320 So I'm sure that's why you asked first. 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:47.040 Yeah, but boy, I wish I had that picture. 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:56.880 And many people, if writing is only secondary to public speaking, 0:24:57.080 --> 0:25:00.760 is their greatest fear. You know, you're right your blog, 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:04.879 which is very readable and articulate. Was this easy for 0:25:05.040 --> 0:25:07.119 you or how did you decide to do that? 0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:11.480 First of all, I did start what's called a web 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:15.440 blog before there was that word blog early nineties. I 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:18.680 fell into having a website and I thought I'll just 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:21.280 write about what it's like backstage. I have any very 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:24.119 easy time writing a lot. I have carry journals like 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:27.200 a lot of people do. Sometimes it lends itself to poetry. 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:29.840 Sometimes it's just a log of what happened that day. 0:25:30.480 --> 0:25:33.840 So very happy to share it with people actually talking 0:25:34.000 --> 0:25:38.960 this kind of of this kind of adventure. I'm not 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:40.639 so good at it, as you can tell, because I 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:43.680 stumbled on the words and I don't dislike it. But 0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:45.560 I'm very comfortable as a writer. 0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:49.520 You know, what people don't realize is a lot of 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:53.399 times household name musicians and you're one of them. They 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:58.159 know certain fans because they come to certain gigs I 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.840 don't want to, you know, encourage people, but do you 0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:02.320 know your super fans? 0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:04.960 I know a lot of them. I'm not great with 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:10.000 names of friends and everybody, so I'm not always aware 0:26:10.000 --> 0:26:11.359 of their names, but I know a lot of them, 0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:13.520 and by look, I know just about all of them 0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:17.119 to look at them. And one thing that's changed all 0:26:17.200 --> 0:26:20.520 that for me is Adrian Blu and Pat Maslato and 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:24.840 I have a yearly music camp where we share almost 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:27.280 a week in the Catskill Mountains actually near where I live, 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:30.280 with fans or anybody who wants to sign up for it, 0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:34.040 all of whom are musicians at some level, but very 0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:36.360 few are professional musicians. There are people who do other 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:39.040 things and are fans of King Crimson. And the first 0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:44.040 year I went to that with the reluctance because I'll 0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:45.800 tell you why. I don't mind being around fans, but 0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:48.159 I don't like being in the position where I'm the 0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:50.760 guy who knows the stuff, where I'm going to be 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:53.359 giving a bass class about how to play the bass. 0:26:53.440 --> 0:26:56.280 I just don't lend myself to that, and so I 0:26:56.359 --> 0:26:58.080 thought I'll do it, but I'm not sure this is 0:26:58.080 --> 0:27:00.200 going to work out well. What happened is and I 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:03.720 got to have meals with them and talk to these 0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:07.440 maybe fifty people who and learned their journey, something about 0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:09.880 their journey, what brought them there, and what they love 0:27:10.000 --> 0:27:13.399 about music and what they play. I was captivated by that, 0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:16.960 and we just finished doing our twelfth year of that. 0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:18.920 So a lot of the campers, by the way we 0:27:19.000 --> 0:27:20.520 call them the campers, a lot of these people are 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:23.520 the same people. I know them very well. Twelve years 0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:26.879 of spending four or five days together every summer and 0:27:27.040 --> 0:27:29.760 by the way, jamming and making music together. So that 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:33.640 kind of put me more connected not only with them, 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:36.560 but with understanding the mindset of the people who just 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:40.200 are mad fans of King Crimson or Peter Gabriel, but 0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:44.440 really have their own story which is just as valid 0:27:44.480 --> 0:27:45.040 as my own. 0:27:46.520 --> 0:27:49.360 I remember when the first King Crimson album came out 0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:52.800 nineteen seventy I could have been sixty nine, had a 0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:56.160 gatefold cover, had a sort of a green to the cover, 0:27:56.880 --> 0:27:59.920 and you know the first song some by Greg Lake 0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:04.440 courd to the Crimson King. What was your experience discovering 0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:05.680 King Crimson. 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:10.879 Very different than yours? In nineteen eighty I had played 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:13.960 on Robert I met Robert Fripp on Peter Gabriel's first 0:28:14.000 --> 0:28:17.959 solo album in seventy six, when Peter left Genesis. By 0:28:18.000 --> 0:28:19.840 the way, I did not know of Genesis when I 0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:22.639 met Peter Gabriel and played on his album, and I 0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:25.080 met Robert Fripp. We toured together with Peter, and then 0:28:25.200 --> 0:28:27.880 Robert at some point after that asked me to play 0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:31.520 on his album called Exposure. So I was very familiar 0:28:31.600 --> 0:28:34.080 with his music, but I did not listen to King Crimson. 0:28:34.119 --> 0:28:36.760 Didn't even know the band when Robert said, I'm thinking 0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:39.520 of forming this other band, not King Crimson, but what 0:28:39.640 --> 0:28:42.600 do you say you come to Let's just play together 0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:45.640 and see how it works out. With Bill Rufford and 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:50.480 Adrian belou Later, maybe decades later, I found out that 0:28:50.560 --> 0:28:53.480 really I was being auditioned and they had other bass 0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:55.920 players come in also. But so I came into that 0:28:56.680 --> 0:28:59.720 not knowing anything about King Crimson, not knowing none of 0:28:59.800 --> 0:29:02.600 us knew that we would later name that combo King 0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:05.920 Crimson because it seemed appropriate to Robert. So I had 0:29:06.360 --> 0:29:10.320 no history at all. In fact, if I remember correctly, 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:14.479 at that audition slash let's get together and play. They said, well, 0:29:14.520 --> 0:29:17.080 let's play Red, and I said, well, I'm a few 0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:19.120 bars something like I'm a few bars to me because 0:29:19.120 --> 0:29:21.719 I don't know it. And I was at that stage 0:29:21.800 --> 0:29:24.600 of my youth pretty quick at learning stuff, so probably 0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:28.120 they were impressed with how quickly I learned red. But 0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:31.240 that first year or two of touring we did, we 0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:35.880 steadfastly refused to do any Crimson classic material from before 0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:39.560 that incarnation. Later, when we did some, that is when 0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:41.560 I listened to King Crimson and that's when I learned that, 0:29:41.720 --> 0:29:44.600 and that's when I was introduced to the iconic parts 0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:47.720 of Greg Lake and John Wetton and became a fan 0:29:47.800 --> 0:29:48.680 of them much later. 0:29:56.200 --> 0:29:57.560 So tell me about the Bead Tour. 0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:01.960 Okay, Adrian Blue had this idea I can't quite speak 0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:04.760 for him, but quite a few years ago of doing 0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:08.000 the music of the eighties of King Crimson and finding 0:30:08.360 --> 0:30:11.320 not doing it with the King Crimson members but other guys. However, 0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:14.920 he brought me on board. And it took years. You know, 0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:19.880 the COVID came along, and when you have players who 0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:23.680 are in different bands, their bands take precedence the schedule 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:26.120 of their bands and the tours. So it took quite 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:30.280 a while until we could finally zero in on September thirteenth, 0:30:30.400 --> 0:30:33.720 September twelfth, I think twenty twenty four as the time 0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:36.240 to start it. Steve I is going to play guitar, 0:30:36.400 --> 0:30:38.640 and he's going to play something like the parts of 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:42.760 Robert Fripp, probably differently, I hope differently. But he's challenged 0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:46.640 by that and quite quite well known that he's publicized 0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:50.280 that he's practicing a lot to do that. And Danny Carey, 0:30:50.360 --> 0:30:52.640 a wonderful drummer, the drummer and tool, has signed on 0:30:52.760 --> 0:30:56.280 to do it, and myself, So I'm excited to be 0:30:56.520 --> 0:31:01.040 revisiting that music, but also I think a little more 0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:04.560 excited about hearing I haven't heard yet, but we haven't 0:31:04.600 --> 0:31:08.320 hearsed yet where Steve I and Danny Carey will take it, 0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:11.120 where in what ways it'll be different, And I will 0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:14.360 be sure to join them in the adventure of taking 0:31:14.440 --> 0:31:17.000 this great material in other places if that's what happens. 0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:22.000 Okay, you know, when Robert was still on tour, Adrian 0:31:22.240 --> 0:31:26.040 was not in the act, and now you're going out 0:31:26.120 --> 0:31:30.320 playing Robert's music, not that it wasn't collaborative with Adrian 0:31:30.560 --> 0:31:34.200 sons Robert. Has anybody been in contact with Robert got 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:35.000 his take. 0:31:34.880 --> 0:31:38.320 On this, Yes, not me. I wouldn't even have thought 0:31:38.360 --> 0:31:41.120 of that. I am I'm the bass player. I just yeah, 0:31:41.160 --> 0:31:43.719 I'll show up, I'll play bass. But yes, Adrian contact 0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:46.600 in him. Robert is one hundred percent in favor of 0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:49.120 the tour and he gave it. Robert gave it the name. 0:31:49.400 --> 0:31:51.760 Why don't you call it the Beat tour? Beat is 0:31:51.800 --> 0:31:53.640 the name of one of the albums we did, one 0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:55.200 of the three albums we did in the eighties. 0:31:57.560 --> 0:32:01.520 And what material will it actually will be all that material, 0:32:01.680 --> 0:32:05.560 any new material, any material outside that decade when you 0:32:05.640 --> 0:32:06.520 work together. 0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:09.080 At this point, because we haven't been together in the 0:32:09.120 --> 0:32:11.600 studio and we're close to going together, it'll just be 0:32:11.680 --> 0:32:15.080 any day now. I don't know exactly, but Adrian sent 0:32:15.160 --> 0:32:17.320 me a list of pretty much all of the music 0:32:17.400 --> 0:32:19.400 of all those albums. We can't do all of that 0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:22.800 in one show. We'll choose among those, and my hope 0:32:22.880 --> 0:32:25.440 is that we will also vary it on different nights, 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:27.800 because I have the feeling a lot of fans will 0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:29.480 be coming to more than one show. Would be nice 0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:31.320 if they're not all exactly the same show. 0:32:32.640 --> 0:32:34.440 Okay, who knew Steve I. 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:40.240 Adrian? So as many questions will that's taken me outside 0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:42.760 my experience. I had not played with Steve. I still 0:32:42.760 --> 0:32:44.360 have not played with Steve Vibe, but I'm going to 0:32:44.400 --> 0:32:47.120 play with him sixty five shows in the next few months, 0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:48.920 and that's going to be great. I'm looking forward to it. 0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:51.840 I've heard him. He's great with Danny Carrey the drummer. 0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:54.120 I have played with him a little bit because he 0:32:54.160 --> 0:32:56.640 sat in with King Crimson for a few shows in 0:32:56.720 --> 0:33:00.600 a multi drummer situation. But it's it's all going to 0:33:00.640 --> 0:33:02.640 be very exciting, and it's all going to be for 0:33:02.840 --> 0:33:04.400 as you can tell from my talking about it. It's 0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:08.520 going to be classic material but a bit new, fresh 0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:10.600 and wild, and we don't know what's going to happen, 0:33:10.640 --> 0:33:11.600 and that's pretty exciting. 0:33:12.600 --> 0:33:15.520 Okay, So you've been talking to Adrian about this or 0:33:15.560 --> 0:33:20.240 agents working on it for years now it's finally happening. 0:33:21.160 --> 0:33:23.320 Sixty five shows A lot of shows. 0:33:23.920 --> 0:33:24.720 I did notice that. 0:33:25.960 --> 0:33:29.720 And then you're talking about the economics or such. It's 0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:33.360 not like playing arenas. You're playing smaller venues and you're 0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:37.240 going on a bus. Are you saying I love this 0:33:37.480 --> 0:33:39.240 music so much, I want to play it, or I 0:33:39.400 --> 0:33:42.360 love hanging with these guys, or I'm not doing anything 0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:45.280 else these three months. You now, how much of a 0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:48.240 hurdle is it? Or do you kind of commit yourself 0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:50.560 and then say, holy fuck? What did I get myself into? 0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:54.520 All of that can happen? A tour like this has 0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:58.160 to be booked way in advance, you know, at least 0:33:58.200 --> 0:33:59.840 a year in advance, so you have to get the 0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:02.360 venues in the right size. And in the case of 0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:05.400 this tour, sales were so good that they revised their 0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:08.080 thoughts about what size venues and sometimes we were playing 0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:11.400 the same area twice. That's all in the hands of management, 0:34:11.520 --> 0:34:13.279 not me. But yes, I had to commit to it 0:34:13.600 --> 0:34:16.920 one hundred percent about a year ago, and I wage, 0:34:17.040 --> 0:34:18.600 as I always do when I'm a call to do 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:26.359 something musically, it sounded great. Maybe I'm trying to how 0:34:26.400 --> 0:34:30.400 can I summarize digging deep into my personality in my 0:34:30.640 --> 0:34:34.120 sense of what made my mouth water about it was 0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:37.319 these other guys that are really great players that haven't 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:40.120 played with and so the two together the eighties music. 0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:43.200 By the way, I didn't bother to stay playing with 0:34:43.320 --> 0:34:45.759 Adrian Blue is great. I love it. Been doing it 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:50.799 a little every year for ever since the eighties. Can't 0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:53.080 get enough of that. That's great, but the whole package 0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:55.120 as a whole made my mouth water, made me want 0:34:55.200 --> 0:35:00.480 to do it musically. Then the typical musician thing, Okay, 0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:02.319 we'll work that out, someone else will work it out. 0:35:02.360 --> 0:35:04.760 I don't know, so yes, it could be. As you mentioned, 0:35:05.120 --> 0:35:07.520 I'm on the bus thinking what did I get myself into, 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:11.440 because that's a lot of days on the bus. But 0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:13.600 probably it'll be fine. I know they're really good guys, 0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:20.240 and almost undoubtedly the music will will overcompensate for anything 0:35:20.320 --> 0:35:23.280 that's less than perfect. When I played with Chuck Mangoni 0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:26.640 and jazz in the sixties, when I was living in Rochester, 0:35:27.200 --> 0:35:31.080 he had an expression of the kind of the eleventh 0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:34.279 Commandment is thou shalt never really groove. It's kind of 0:35:35.280 --> 0:35:38.439 jazz player's way of thinking about digging and touring because 0:35:38.480 --> 0:35:40.359 there's so many things that can get in a way 0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:43.520 of an ideal jazz performance where you really need to 0:35:43.560 --> 0:35:46.520 be free to improvise the way you want. And that's 0:35:46.800 --> 0:35:50.480 some groove not true in rock and these stories I 0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:52.759 can groove, but yes, there are many things that can 0:35:53.200 --> 0:35:57.520 make it less than ideal, and almost always the music 0:35:57.840 --> 0:35:58.600 compensates for that. 0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:03.560 Okay, there have been records that have actually literally been 0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:07.080 made on the road, made in hotel rooms. Certain people 0:36:07.239 --> 0:36:10.720 go back to the hotel room practice. Certainly Frip himself 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:14.919 does that. Oh yeah, to what degree do you find 0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:18.040 being on the road and I realize every situation is different. 0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:22.160 Is their camaraderie and contact with the other people on 0:36:22.280 --> 0:36:27.800 the road and at times musical collaboration, experimentation all stage. 0:36:29.360 --> 0:36:32.680 Oh yeah, a lot of good times. I think in 0:36:32.800 --> 0:36:35.200 my experience, the bands that don't get along great just 0:36:35.280 --> 0:36:37.839 don't stay together long. So all the bands I've been 0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:41.040 a long time, there's great camaraderie. There's a lot of 0:36:41.080 --> 0:36:44.319 hanging out and a lot of joking. Even even King 0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:47.520 Crimson is a very serious band, has been on stage 0:36:47.600 --> 0:36:51.000 and the music is very intense. But even while we're 0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:53.520 on stage, if you really could see that the little 0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:56.640 communications among the guys that we're having fun and joking 0:36:56.719 --> 0:37:01.480 with each other, even about our mistakes. Robert Robert, especially 0:37:01.600 --> 0:37:04.560 Robert Fripp, who's used to seem very serious to audiences. 0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:06.879 In the last few years they've on Facebook, they've seen 0:37:07.000 --> 0:37:10.239 behind the other side of him, which is what I've 0:37:10.239 --> 0:37:13.719 seen for years the kids around a lot. We'll get 0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:15.879 off stage and he'll look at me and he'll say, yes, 0:37:15.960 --> 0:37:18.279 when in doubt, play CE sharp because he'll have heard 0:37:18.320 --> 0:37:20.520 that I came in when I was supposed to play 0:37:20.560 --> 0:37:22.160 an E. I came in with a C sharp and 0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:24.719 he doesn't rate me for it. He said, oh yeah, 0:37:24.719 --> 0:37:27.759 I went in doubt play C sharp. And once I 0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:30.319 got a note when I in the nineties, I got 0:37:30.360 --> 0:37:33.319 a note under my door at a hotel from Robert saying, 0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:36.320 you have the rare opportunity to lend me money. And 0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:38.920 who signed Robert Fripp? I think I said saved that 0:37:39.200 --> 0:37:42.560 it's one of the only things I have that he signed. Sorry, 0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:46.640 I went off on that. To play together off stage 0:37:46.960 --> 0:37:49.560 is something we just don't have the opportunity to do 0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:52.200 very much well at all in the bands that I 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:55.080 tour with. I know some bands that set up a stage. 0:37:55.320 --> 0:37:57.239 If they're playing an arena, they set up a stage. 0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:00.600 Bon Jovi did this, This set up a stage backstage 0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:03.000 to jam before the show, after the show, to have 0:38:03.080 --> 0:38:05.920 fun and play other stuff. That's just not a possibility 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:08.040 in the tours I do. If it's a big one 0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:12.240 like Peter Gabriel's, the crew immediately is on stage tearing 0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:15.200 down the stage right the second after you stop. And yes, 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:16.880 you could go to if you had the energy, you 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:20.080 could go to a club somewhere in jam with other players. 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:22.400 And maybe I used to do that a little bit 0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:24.200 a long long time ago, but not anymore. 0:38:25.640 --> 0:38:28.320 So you have this summer camp. Did you go to 0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:30.880 camp as a kid? I? 0:38:31.440 --> 0:38:33.960 Oh, I forgot until you asked that I did. I 0:38:34.040 --> 0:38:36.200 went to classical I was a classical player and I 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:38.960 went to one or two years at the University of 0:38:39.040 --> 0:38:43.400 mass in Amherst, Mass. Yeah, and it was influential on me, 0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:46.000 but only in a classical way, and later I stopped 0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:49.400 playing classical. But it was kind of cool, very different 0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:52.800 than this kind of camp with adults. I say adults, 0:38:52.840 --> 0:38:55.440 but this year there was a eight year old drummer 0:38:55.440 --> 0:38:57.600 who was amazing. Came with his parents. 0:38:59.040 --> 0:39:02.400 Okay, you grew up in Brookline and outside of Boston. 0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:04.479 What'd your parents do for a living? 0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:08.279 Wow, you've researched me a lot. I appreciate that. 0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:11.120 Well, I spent a lot of time in Brookline. Anyway, 0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:13.920 we really have a friend who grew up absolutely. 0:39:14.920 --> 0:39:18.080 My mother was the head of the children's department at 0:39:18.120 --> 0:39:22.239 a Boston public library, first at a branch, then then 0:39:22.280 --> 0:39:26.160 at the main branch, and then the overall library. So 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:28.640 we read a lot. My brother and I had a 0:39:28.719 --> 0:39:31.840 lot of children's books. My father was an engineer, a 0:39:32.040 --> 0:39:35.839 radio engineer at first at WHDH, which later became also 0:39:35.920 --> 0:39:39.440 a TV station, and I grew up visiting the station 0:39:39.600 --> 0:39:43.440 a lot and seeing what radio is like behind the scenes. 0:39:43.520 --> 0:39:47.239 That was fun. And they both my older brother, Pete 0:39:47.360 --> 0:39:49.279 was a French horn player at first and then became 0:39:49.360 --> 0:39:51.960 a pianist, and he went to Juilliard for classical and 0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:55.120 I went to the Eastman School for classical. So my 0:39:55.320 --> 0:39:59.080 parents did what they felt was the traditional thing of 0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:02.200 educating us musically, first playing piano and then picking our 0:40:02.239 --> 0:40:05.279 own instruments. And then they were kind of daunted when 0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:08.640 first Pete and then I became professional musicians. That wasn't 0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:10.160 what they had in mind at all, but that's the 0:40:10.239 --> 0:40:12.800 way it went, and they were quite supportive of it. 0:40:14.000 --> 0:40:16.080 Okay, so when did you start piano lessons? 0:40:18.080 --> 0:40:21.160 I don't remember that, good question. Let me think I 0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:25.279 probably I was playing bass at twelve years old, so 0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:27.759 probably from nine years old I played piano and then 0:40:27.800 --> 0:40:31.120 I know this as an adult when my parents were 0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:33.560 quite old, I asked them if they remembered if I 0:40:33.600 --> 0:40:35.799 said anything about why I chose to play the bass, 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:38.440 because I don't know what I did. And they said, no, 0:40:38.640 --> 0:40:40.520 you just said you liked it. They actually had asked 0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:43.239 me that I liked the bass. And that sounds like 0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:46.919 a pointless story, but think about how many years later 0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:51.040 I'm seventy eight now and I still just like playing 0:40:51.080 --> 0:40:53.000 the bass, and I just want to play good music. 0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:56.200 So I'm glad I didn't think with that part of 0:40:56.280 --> 0:40:58.040 my brain that had a plan, And I'm glad I 0:40:58.080 --> 0:41:00.600 didn't say, well, I want to be this or I 0:41:00.680 --> 0:41:02.439 want to do this. I wanted to play the bass, 0:41:02.480 --> 0:41:04.880 and I'm very lucky that I am still doing that. 0:41:06.400 --> 0:41:08.400 Well, you know, and a lot of Jewish families in 0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:11.400 the era, they made you take piano lessons, and most people, 0:41:12.400 --> 0:41:16.080 you know, had mixed feelings about that. When you started 0:41:16.120 --> 0:41:18.600 with music, we're saying, oh, this is my thing. Oh 0:41:18.760 --> 0:41:20.200 my parents are making me do this. 0:41:22.280 --> 0:41:25.040 They had urged me to practice. What kid wants to practice, well, 0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:28.040 one in a hundred kids wants to practice. I didn't 0:41:28.080 --> 0:41:30.880 want to practice, but I did, and I liked it. 0:41:30.960 --> 0:41:33.400 I liked being able to play better the piano, and 0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:35.840 then once I was playing the bass, they didn't have 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:39.320 to ask me to practice. I just did practice. And 0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:42.040 you're right, it was a tradition to educate it. And 0:41:42.200 --> 0:41:45.680 before had I been born ten years earlier, the tradition 0:41:45.880 --> 0:41:47.880 was to take up violin. I was kind of I 0:41:47.920 --> 0:41:50.920 don't know why, but in the Eastern Europe that's what 0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:53.760 you did. And I'm glad I didn't have to become 0:41:53.800 --> 0:41:56.719 a violinist because it would have been ten years to 0:41:56.880 --> 0:41:59.560 master it instead of or sorry, twenty years instead of 0:41:59.600 --> 0:42:02.120 ten years the master of that instrument, and I wouldn't 0:42:02.120 --> 0:42:04.040 be able to play rock and roll the way I do. 0:42:05.520 --> 0:42:09.759 Okay, So you know, I'm a little younger than you, 0:42:10.120 --> 0:42:12.880 and I remember hearing the show tunes and our parents 0:42:13.000 --> 0:42:16.920 takings to young people's concerts. Prior to playing the piano. 0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:19.960 Was there music in the house and what kind of 0:42:20.040 --> 0:42:20.759 music was that. 0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:23.839 I'm very much a product of my older brother three 0:42:23.920 --> 0:42:26.160 years old, or the records that he got or the 0:42:26.200 --> 0:42:30.040 records that I grew up with because he could afford them. Yeah, 0:42:30.080 --> 0:42:32.000 my dad brought home music too. There was there was 0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:33.600 a lot of music being played and we had. We 0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:37.360 were pretty early to have a Hi Fi and and 0:42:37.680 --> 0:42:40.319 even a TV that I think I remember my dad 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:42.520 building it out of components to have a TV in 0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:47.560 the early fifties. So it's a musical household somewhat. And yeah, 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:50.640 plenty of culture in Boston and in Brookline. Take I 0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:54.440 was taken to see concerts almost all well, there was 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:58.080 no rock and roll, but I was taken to classical 0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:01.000 concerts and grew to love that music. 0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:05.320 Okay, I don't have any brothers. I have two sisters. 0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:09.640 What's it like having an older brother? Did you always 0:43:09.760 --> 0:43:13.480 worship him and get along? Did you fight what was 0:43:13.560 --> 0:43:14.200 going on there? 0:43:14.600 --> 0:43:17.520 In our case, we never fought. And I don't think 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:20.239 I worshiped Pete, but I just quietly followed him. 0:43:21.600 --> 0:43:21.759 You know. 0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:25.200 He learned at an early age to take all the 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:27.880 gigs because they might lead to something else. There might 0:43:27.920 --> 0:43:30.120 be a really good player. He was a jazz player before. 0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:34.160 I think of Pete as a jazz player, classically trained, 0:43:34.200 --> 0:43:36.040 a jazz player who plays rock, and I think of 0:43:36.120 --> 0:43:38.759 myself as a rock player who plays jazz. In that 0:43:38.960 --> 0:43:42.800 I mean, I don't really live the life, live the 0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:45.480 base parts of jazz, and I hear that when I play, 0:43:45.560 --> 0:43:47.480 I play it, I think pretty well, but not as 0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:50.560 well as I would if that was my whole musical life. 0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:55.080 But anyway, Yeah, I learned from him many things, but 0:43:55.280 --> 0:43:57.480 including take the gig. You might meet a really good 0:43:57.520 --> 0:44:01.000 drummer and then you'll get to play with him. Other 0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:04.160 things like that and those. A few years ago we 0:44:04.280 --> 0:44:06.480 decided to form a band for the first time, quite 0:44:06.560 --> 0:44:08.719 only a few years ago, to form a band and 0:44:08.840 --> 0:44:12.080 to play the style of music that he first listened to. 0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:16.160 So we grew up with in the fifties, which was cool. 0:44:16.239 --> 0:44:20.560 I guess you'd call it the cool jazz. And the 0:44:20.680 --> 0:44:23.520 bass player Julius Watkins was the French horn player. That's 0:44:23.520 --> 0:44:25.719 why Pete was getting those records because he was a 0:44:25.760 --> 0:44:29.160 French horn player, and Oscar Peterford was the bass player, 0:44:29.200 --> 0:44:33.239 great bass player. So really, in my later years I 0:44:33.320 --> 0:44:36.120 realized that I grew up listening to Oscar Petterford, whose 0:44:36.239 --> 0:44:39.759 choice of notes and whose taste and whose six think 0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:43.440 solos were pretty exceptional, and I didn't think about it 0:44:43.480 --> 0:44:45.279 at the time. It's only now that when I look 0:44:45.360 --> 0:44:49.239 back and I think that in a deep way, I 0:44:50.000 --> 0:44:52.600 tried to become that bass player. But playing rock, in 0:44:52.680 --> 0:44:55.080 other words, trying to. I wasn't thinking I'll be like Oscar, 0:44:55.160 --> 0:44:57.360 but I do try to find the right notes and 0:44:57.400 --> 0:45:00.120 the right feel and the right sound, and not not 0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:03.359 do any more than not be flashy necessarily unless it's 0:45:03.400 --> 0:45:06.719 called for. And yeah, so I was greatly influenced by 0:45:06.800 --> 0:45:07.720 my brother's records. 0:45:15.480 --> 0:45:19.640 Okay, talking about you and your brother at a young age, 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:24.120 you go to school. What kind of student were you? 0:45:24.320 --> 0:45:27.320 Did you have friends? Did you play sports? We always 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:28.880 one step remove what we you like. 0:45:31.080 --> 0:45:33.360 Well, I'm never asked that I have to think a 0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:36.120 minutecause it was a long time ago. I enjoyed school. 0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:39.600 The Brookline Public schools were pretty good, so I got 0:45:39.640 --> 0:45:42.040 a decent education, not as good as I wish I had, 0:45:42.600 --> 0:45:44.680 but pretty good. And I was in a band, in 0:45:44.760 --> 0:45:47.279 an orchestra and a chorus the whole time, as soon 0:45:47.320 --> 0:45:49.480 as there was a chance to be in those, and 0:45:49.960 --> 0:45:52.560 some of those did out of town concerts. So in 0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:54.640 a way, I was on the road as a thirteen 0:45:54.719 --> 0:45:57.840 year old a little bit, and that prepared me for 0:45:58.000 --> 0:46:00.560 being on the road when I was in the music 0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:04.360 school and college or university, and not prepared me for 0:46:04.480 --> 0:46:06.520 being on the road even more it. There's a piece 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:08.960 on my new album called road Dogs, and it was 0:46:10.480 --> 0:46:14.600 intended as an instrumental, and it wasn't instrumental, and I 0:46:14.719 --> 0:46:17.080 just was singing along with it, and I went road 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:20.239 Dogs with that kind of voice of road Dogs, and 0:46:20.360 --> 0:46:22.399 I decided, well, I'll leave that in there and I'll 0:46:22.400 --> 0:46:25.600 write some other lyrics to fit that, because even though 0:46:25.640 --> 0:46:27.759 that it wasn't intended to be about that, I and 0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:29.800 the guys I work with are indeed road dogs. 0:46:31.840 --> 0:46:35.760 So if I was growing up in Brooklyn in the fifties, 0:46:35.840 --> 0:46:39.360 brookline excuse me in the fifties, say oh yeah, Tony, 0:46:39.480 --> 0:46:40.560 he's the music guy. 0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:43.880 I was, indeed one of the music guys I was. 0:46:44.320 --> 0:46:46.840 When the Beatles came around, kids came up to me, 0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:51.120 are they any good? Tony? I didn't know what to say, 0:46:51.200 --> 0:46:53.880 because I, you know, i'd heard them, but I didn't 0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:56.839 judge that about you know, like you know, I had 0:46:56.880 --> 0:46:58.960 nothing to do with classical so I didn't judge. Later 0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:01.160 I would have, you know, years later, I say they're 0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:04.040 very good. Indeed, there there's more to them than just 0:47:04.120 --> 0:47:06.680 a pop band. But I do remember being asked that, 0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:09.880 and I was not the only person in that in 0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:14.080 that UH world, you know who was spending his time 0:47:14.239 --> 0:47:17.200 practicing in the in the band room, and I picked 0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:19.240 up tuba in those years. I didn't have a tuba 0:47:19.320 --> 0:47:22.279 at home, but it was sort of normal for for 0:47:22.360 --> 0:47:23.840 a bass player to be a tuba player, and the 0:47:24.000 --> 0:47:26.200 and the school, the high school had one. I had 0:47:26.200 --> 0:47:28.160 a few of them for us to play, and I 0:47:28.680 --> 0:47:31.000 actually formed a love for playing in concert bands, which 0:47:31.280 --> 0:47:35.600 I carried with me later into UH into I think 0:47:35.640 --> 0:47:37.600 I end. I'm trying to think. When I stopped playing 0:47:37.640 --> 0:47:41.000 the tuba, they wouldn't let me play it at Eastman 0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:43.600 at is where they wanted you to have only one 0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:46.560 instrument that you that you focused on. But then when 0:47:46.600 --> 0:47:49.120 I played Peter Gabriel's first album, I I talked to 0:47:49.160 --> 0:47:51.840 him and let me play tuba on one piece and 0:47:52.320 --> 0:47:54.960 subsequently on the road. So we had a tuba on 0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:55.319 the road. 0:47:57.200 --> 0:47:59.960 Okay. I heard from somebody who's a road guys were 0:48:00.120 --> 0:48:03.560 from you work with you that you played the White 0:48:03.640 --> 0:48:05.560 House in JFK's era. 0:48:06.440 --> 0:48:11.200 Yes, what's to say about that? Oh? Yeah, that's right. Yes, 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:14.879 the Greater Boston Youth Symphony Orchestra took us on the road. 0:48:15.000 --> 0:48:19.839 I was was it early in the early sixties. I'm 0:48:20.000 --> 0:48:22.359 guessing sixty two, but I could look it up for sure. 0:48:22.400 --> 0:48:25.759 And we played in two places, at Carnegie Hall in 0:48:25.880 --> 0:48:29.360 New York and on the White House lawn President Kennedy. 0:48:29.640 --> 0:48:33.399 Kennedy came out and gave a speech before the show, 0:48:33.520 --> 0:48:35.480 saying that he was too busy to stay for it, 0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:38.080 but that he promising he would keep his window open 0:48:38.200 --> 0:48:40.239 from his study. I'm not sure he actually did that, 0:48:41.040 --> 0:48:43.560 but somewhere I have a tape of the speech, and 0:48:43.680 --> 0:48:47.760 it's it's times have change, because he really gave speeches 0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:51.880 very well and eloquently, saying how precious it was to 0:48:52.000 --> 0:48:55.160 have our youth educated in music. And that's not the 0:48:55.280 --> 0:48:57.160 kind of thing you would lately you would hear from 0:48:57.160 --> 0:48:59.160 the White House. I think, so we're pretty special. 0:49:00.200 --> 0:49:01.839 Where were you and Kennedy was shot. 0:49:03.239 --> 0:49:06.120 I was in high school and I was heading for 0:49:06.880 --> 0:49:09.520 work at the library, Boston Public Library, where I worked 0:49:09.560 --> 0:49:14.920 in the music department, doing whatever I could. Yeah, and 0:49:15.080 --> 0:49:18.640 when John John Kennedy, when John Lennon was shot, I 0:49:18.800 --> 0:49:23.400 was in my New York City apartment developing photos. That's 0:49:23.440 --> 0:49:25.480 what I did all night because I didn't have a 0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:28.040 darkroom that was dark during the day, so I'd stay 0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:32.239 up late and the phone rang and it was I 0:49:32.320 --> 0:49:34.600 can tell this story now without choking up, but for 0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:38.600 many years I couldn't. It was a newspaper saying, not 0:49:38.719 --> 0:49:40.360 that he had been killed, but it hadn't been shot 0:49:40.440 --> 0:49:42.960 and was injured, and did I have a quote for them? 0:49:43.040 --> 0:49:45.440 I don't remember. I think it was a Rochester newspaper, 0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:49.040 and I was shocked and puzzled by how they had 0:49:49.120 --> 0:49:53.919 my phone number, and doubly shocked, and then I said 0:49:53.920 --> 0:49:56.200 I don't know and hung up. And then another newspaper 0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:58.440 called shortly afterward, was asking for a quote saying that 0:49:59.000 --> 0:50:03.680 he had died. I, like everybody, I was traumatized by that, 0:50:03.880 --> 0:50:07.600 and I think for about ten years after that, if 0:50:07.640 --> 0:50:10.120 anyone asked me anything about the John Lennon sessions, I 0:50:10.239 --> 0:50:12.720 just would say, that's not something I can talk about. 0:50:14.120 --> 0:50:17.320 And then I think I released a book called Beyond 0:50:17.360 --> 0:50:21.920 the Bass Cleft, with short stories of different situations I've 0:50:21.960 --> 0:50:23.800 been in as a musician through my life, and it 0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:27.719 had the John Lennon Yokohona sessions, and the editor said, 0:50:27.800 --> 0:50:31.160 correctly to me, you really have to address this. You're 0:50:31.280 --> 0:50:35.040 just kind of dodging the reality that everybody knows. And 0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:38.480 that's when I finally, ten years later, came to emotionally 0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:41.080 came to grips with it well. 0:50:41.239 --> 0:50:45.000 Jack Douglas, producer of Double Fantasy, he said, you know, 0:50:45.120 --> 0:50:49.319 the deal was, if anybody finds out the record's over, 0:50:50.280 --> 0:50:54.280 totally a secret. How did you end up on Double Fantasy? 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:57.960 It was Jack who I assume it was Jack who 0:50:58.040 --> 0:50:59.680 told John that I was a good bass player and 0:50:59.719 --> 0:51:02.879 worth head having the John's first words to me where 0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:04.719 they say they tell me you're good, just don't play 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:08.920 too many notes. And I smiled and laughed. I smiled 0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:12.200 because that's such a New York in your face attitude, 0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:13.839 which I was fine. I was a New Yorker at 0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:16.439 the time that I'm very comfortable with that, and I knew, 0:51:16.520 --> 0:51:18.919 but he didn't know that I wouldn't play too many notes. 0:51:18.960 --> 0:51:21.080 It's just not the kind of bass player I am. 0:51:21.200 --> 0:51:26.120 And I kind of understood that he was directly addressing 0:51:26.200 --> 0:51:28.279 the fact that somebody told him I'm good. That could 0:51:28.280 --> 0:51:30.120 mean I'm a real flashy player who's going to do 0:51:30.320 --> 0:51:33.200 just horrible things on his song. So I had a 0:51:33.239 --> 0:51:35.200 smile and I said, don't worry, I won't play too 0:51:35.239 --> 0:51:37.480 many notes, and we got along musically really great. We 0:51:37.600 --> 0:51:39.839 got along fine in every way. But I could tell 0:51:39.880 --> 0:51:42.560 he was very happy with the bass parts I played. 0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:44.680 And that's a nice feeling. When John Lennon's happy, he 0:51:44.719 --> 0:51:47.480 doesn't have to gush about it. But I could just 0:51:47.560 --> 0:51:51.120 sense that he liked it a lot. There was something else, 0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:52.440 Oh yeah, secret sessions. 0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:52.879 Yeah. 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:56.520 They told me not to tell anyone. I believe someone 0:51:56.600 --> 0:51:58.239 told me not to even tell my wife where I 0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:02.400 was working. I only lived across town and listen to this. 0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:06.839 The second day after I was told that, I took 0:52:06.880 --> 0:52:09.560 a taxi over from the East Side to the west Side. 0:52:10.040 --> 0:52:13.000 I believe it was a hit factory forty eighth Street 0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:16.200 between eighth and ninth, and I asked to get off on. 0:52:17.080 --> 0:52:18.560 I just said to the taxi, just take me to 0:52:18.760 --> 0:52:21.960 ninth and forty eighth and he said, oh, that's near 0:52:22.040 --> 0:52:26.560 where John Lennon's recording And I thought, yeah, secrets as 0:52:27.480 --> 0:52:29.560 the cab drive and I'm not even going to the studio. 0:52:29.680 --> 0:52:32.200 And the taxi driver knows he had heard it on 0:52:32.239 --> 0:52:32.640 the radio. 0:52:32.760 --> 0:52:36.560 By the way, that morning, were you starstruck when you 0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:37.520 met John Lennon. 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:40.760 I can't say that. I was no I was pleased 0:52:40.800 --> 0:52:44.120 to be part of it. Maybe it's just not the 0:52:44.200 --> 0:52:46.560 way I'm made up that I get starstruck from people. 0:52:48.160 --> 0:52:52.239 And also I had worked with other famous musicians, so 0:52:53.640 --> 0:52:56.880 I think I just I haven't analyzed why it is. 0:52:56.960 --> 0:53:00.160 I didn't get starstruck, as you can tell. I just 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:03.440 think I entered situations on a musical level, and that's 0:53:03.480 --> 0:53:06.319 about the music. And I hoped that I would like him, 0:53:06.360 --> 0:53:08.560 that he would be nice and likewise with Yoko, and 0:53:08.640 --> 0:53:11.320 that worked out fine. But in a way, it was 0:53:11.360 --> 0:53:14.800 the music that that it was all centered on to me, 0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:16.520 and that's just kind of the way I work. 0:53:17.840 --> 0:53:19.560 Well, you a lot of times they lay down the 0:53:19.960 --> 0:53:23.120 drums in the bass and you disappear. How long did 0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:25.640 you work on the Double Fantasy sessions and to what 0:53:25.840 --> 0:53:29.040 degree were the songs pre written or work down in 0:53:29.120 --> 0:53:29.600 the studio? 0:53:30.880 --> 0:53:33.200 They were the whole whole length of it was only 0:53:33.239 --> 0:53:36.560 two weeks, and then they made a second album out 0:53:36.600 --> 0:53:41.960 of outtakes that were Yeah, they weren't finished that In 0:53:42.040 --> 0:53:44.280 the case of that album, we did the full rhythm 0:53:44.400 --> 0:53:47.799 track rhythm section together. There were no overdubs. You could 0:53:47.880 --> 0:53:49.719 fix a part if you made a mistake, but there 0:53:49.800 --> 0:53:52.960 wasn't much of that. John would simp lay his song 0:53:53.080 --> 0:53:56.400 and sing it to you, and I would think, goodness, 0:53:56.480 --> 0:53:59.040 there's there are thousands of bass players who could do 0:53:59.120 --> 0:54:01.759 a great job on this. How lucky am I that 0:54:01.800 --> 0:54:05.160 I'm the one who's here? And that was kind of 0:54:05.200 --> 0:54:08.000 the extent of all. Okay, Having put that thought aside, 0:54:08.080 --> 0:54:12.239 I just had the happy ride of hearing a new 0:54:12.320 --> 0:54:15.280 song and playing a wonderful song, and we alternated songs 0:54:15.360 --> 0:54:18.320 with Yoko's songs, would do John's, and Yoko would be 0:54:19.280 --> 0:54:22.480 in the control room with Sean, young Sean and kind 0:54:22.520 --> 0:54:26.239 of helping, just coordinate the control room with John. Then 0:54:26.280 --> 0:54:28.000 we would do a Yoko song and John would be 0:54:28.080 --> 0:54:30.319 the tea boy. He'd be in the control room take 0:54:30.480 --> 0:54:33.080 looking at Sean and bringing out tea for Yoko, which 0:54:33.200 --> 0:54:37.160 was sweet. Her songs were a lot more problematic to 0:54:37.280 --> 0:54:40.359 do because she doesn't play the instrument. She had had 0:54:40.400 --> 0:54:43.600 an arranger come in and do charts, but the charts 0:54:43.640 --> 0:54:45.640 weren't really didn't tell you much about how you should 0:54:45.640 --> 0:54:51.759 do it, so hers work became a a search to 0:54:51.840 --> 0:54:54.040 find the groove that she wanted, to find the tempo 0:54:54.120 --> 0:54:56.320 that would work, and to find where we're going with 0:54:56.400 --> 0:54:58.680 this piece, and then we would get that, and then 0:54:58.719 --> 0:55:01.120 we're back to John and all there. He placed this 0:55:01.600 --> 0:55:03.480 big guitar, he sings and it's all there for you. 0:55:04.040 --> 0:55:07.080 It couldn't be easier. So it was an interesting experience. 0:55:07.239 --> 0:55:09.520 None of it was difficult, but it was unusual, and 0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:12.080 that we alternated between two writers. 0:55:13.640 --> 0:55:21.520 And hey, are you ever starstruck with anybody, whether a musician, politician, scientist, whatever. 0:55:23.600 --> 0:55:28.000 Good question. I can't remember being start what I would 0:55:28.000 --> 0:55:30.960 call starstruck. No, it doesn't mean that I feel I'm 0:55:31.280 --> 0:55:34.000 equal to these these really special people. It's just kind 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:36.000 of not not in my makeup so much. 0:55:36.920 --> 0:55:38.520 We've been doing this a long time. But if you 0:55:38.640 --> 0:55:43.480 go back seventies eighties when you were called for a session, 0:55:44.080 --> 0:55:47.799 did you ever feel somewhat uptight? You know, I don't 0:55:47.800 --> 0:55:50.480 want to make the exact equivalent stage fright, but it's 0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:52.719 sort of the same thing. You know, the band wrote 0:55:52.719 --> 0:55:54.600 a song. You know they've been on there at stage 0:55:54.640 --> 0:55:57.520 a million times with Ronnie Hawkins and Dylan, yet they're 0:55:57.520 --> 0:56:00.320 still uptight when they hit the stage. When you'd be 0:56:00.440 --> 0:56:04.719 called to work with an act, would you say another day, 0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:07.160 I've got this or it would be party. You had 0:56:07.239 --> 0:56:09.359 spilkiss say, well, you know, I got to get it right. 0:56:09.480 --> 0:56:09.840 I don't know. 0:56:12.560 --> 0:56:16.440 I think I'm thinking of a couple times in my 0:56:17.280 --> 0:56:20.120 concert life that I was nervous. Once, when I was 0:56:20.200 --> 0:56:23.719 a kid, I played a tuba concerto with the high 0:56:23.760 --> 0:56:28.200 school band and I didn't a factor in that your 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:30.799 mouth gets dry when you're nervous. And we did one 0:56:30.960 --> 0:56:33.880 away out of town concert and a piece I had 0:56:33.920 --> 0:56:35.960 played before. But we got to the cadenza and my 0:56:36.080 --> 0:56:37.920 mouth was just dry as a bone. I couldn't even 0:56:37.960 --> 0:56:40.080 play the tuba, let alone go to the high note. 0:56:40.120 --> 0:56:42.480 Excuse me, a high note on the tuba. And so 0:56:42.800 --> 0:56:46.279 I was very nervous, and it grew on itself as 0:56:46.360 --> 0:56:49.360 nervous as well will the more I realized, oh, I'm nervous, 0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:51.239 and that's making my mouth dry. So there was that, 0:56:51.800 --> 0:56:54.520 and then way many years later, I played with Paul 0:56:54.600 --> 0:56:59.280 Simon Jimmy Carter's inauguration week. It was in a theater 0:57:00.160 --> 0:57:03.680 and full theater, and Jimmy Carter was at the front 0:57:03.760 --> 0:57:08.040 of the balcony with his wife and looking down and smiling, 0:57:08.160 --> 0:57:10.800 big famous smile and a lot of teeth, and I 0:57:10.880 --> 0:57:12.640 looked up and I'm behind Paul and I'm not the 0:57:12.760 --> 0:57:15.960 lead guy at all, and I thought, I'm nervous. This 0:57:16.120 --> 0:57:18.960 is this is really special, and I'm a little nervous. 0:57:19.000 --> 0:57:22.720 And I thought, that's great, that's pretty cool that I'm nervous. 0:57:22.800 --> 0:57:25.320 I thought this, and a few times I've been nervous 0:57:25.880 --> 0:57:28.640 since then, since the Oh, I just thought of another one. 0:57:28.760 --> 0:57:31.720 I'll borri you with. But a few times I've got nervous, I. 0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:36.320 Think bors What was the other time, Yeah, with. 0:57:36.440 --> 0:57:40.440 That same orchestra that played the White House when I 0:57:40.600 --> 0:57:43.520 was older, I was playing a concerto with them, the 0:57:43.600 --> 0:57:49.960 Kusavisky Bass Concerto at the Boston University Theater, and I 0:57:50.160 --> 0:57:53.520 wore cuff links a thing back then. I was dressed 0:57:53.560 --> 0:57:55.040 up and I wore cuff links, which I had never 0:57:55.120 --> 0:57:58.240 worn at a rehearsal. And the piece, I think is 0:57:58.320 --> 0:58:00.480 in B minor. But when there's an e, which happens 0:58:00.520 --> 0:58:04.080 a lot when you're in the KYB minor, my wrist 0:58:04.320 --> 0:58:06.440 was at the shoulder of the bass, shall I put 0:58:06.440 --> 0:58:09.880 it that way? And the cufflink when I did vibrato, 0:58:10.000 --> 0:58:13.160 the cufflink was banging against the shoulder of the bass, 0:58:13.280 --> 0:58:16.640 making a let's call. It a machine gun sound, much 0:58:16.760 --> 0:58:20.120 louder than what I was playing, much louder than the orchestra, 0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:22.360 and the audience couldn't help but be aware of that. 0:58:23.000 --> 0:58:26.520 And as I got nervous about it and about the 0:58:26.680 --> 0:58:29.800 upcoming ease the note e that I knew there were 0:58:29.840 --> 0:58:33.480 plenty of them coming, it got faster, as vibrato will 0:58:33.560 --> 0:58:34.480 do when you're nervous. 0:58:34.920 --> 0:58:35.200 So that. 0:58:36.800 --> 0:58:38.840 Was a great example to me of when I didn't 0:58:38.920 --> 0:58:40.720 embrace it, and it kind of got out of hand, 0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:43.400 and it was a dreadful performance for me, and I'm 0:58:43.440 --> 0:58:46.520 sure the audience was scratching their head about why I 0:58:46.600 --> 0:58:49.640 played the machine gun notes along with the concerto. 0:58:51.320 --> 0:58:55.520 Okay, so your brother is buying these jazz records. Rock 0:58:55.640 --> 0:58:58.680 starts sometime in the early fifties. You know, I turn 0:58:58.760 --> 0:59:02.960 a rocket eighty eight rock around the clock. Then comes Elvis. 0:59:03.600 --> 0:59:06.160 At what point did you become infected with rock? 0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:12.640 Interesting question? Not then? Not even in high school when 0:59:12.680 --> 0:59:15.480 the Beatle I mentioned the Beatles coming around around, I 0:59:15.560 --> 0:59:19.800 wasn't too interested. I listened a little bit, went to 0:59:20.080 --> 0:59:24.080 music school, started playing a little jazz, Still not interested 0:59:24.120 --> 0:59:26.840 in rock. I think I might have taken an ad 0:59:26.960 --> 0:59:31.280 out in Rochester when I was twenty looking for a 0:59:31.440 --> 0:59:33.520 rock band. I had never been in a rock band, 0:59:33.600 --> 0:59:36.520 and the Beatles had got more sophisticated, and I was 0:59:36.600 --> 0:59:40.240 kind of interested in it, So it really was. I think. 0:59:40.320 --> 0:59:43.240 I was out of school and went to New York 0:59:43.320 --> 0:59:48.160 City and was a session player when I started playing. Well, 0:59:48.200 --> 0:59:49.840 I did a lot of kinds of music as a 0:59:49.840 --> 0:59:53.160 studio player in New York, and I became kind of 0:59:53.200 --> 0:59:55.560 attached to the rock stuff and trying to get the 0:59:55.640 --> 0:59:58.280 right sound for rock and trying to change my sound 0:59:58.360 --> 1:00:01.000 something you never did in classical never did in jazz, 1:00:01.920 --> 1:00:05.720 but you could do with an electric bass. I never 1:00:05.760 --> 1:00:09.080 thought until now about the what's the first rock I 1:00:09.200 --> 1:00:11.680 listened to or enjoyed? But it was pretty late in 1:00:11.760 --> 1:00:13.280 my formative years. 1:00:20.720 --> 1:00:23.680 Okay, how about you. You're coming of age and Top 1:00:23.800 --> 1:00:26.480 forty and there was great Top forty radio in Boston. 1:00:27.080 --> 1:00:28.960 Were you even listening to it? 1:00:29.920 --> 1:00:32.600 No? No, I was immersed in classical music at that time. 1:00:34.520 --> 1:00:38.560 Okay, at the time, were you playing a double bass? 1:00:38.720 --> 1:00:41.920 And at what point did you play the electric bass? 1:00:42.480 --> 1:00:44.960 Yes, I played double bass only, and we called it 1:00:45.040 --> 1:00:47.479 double bass, and since then you call it spring bass 1:00:47.600 --> 1:00:51.040 or acoustic bass. And graduated high school, got into the 1:00:51.080 --> 1:00:54.240 Easton School of Music, played in the Rochester Philharmonic, and 1:00:54.520 --> 1:00:57.760 I was very lucky that Steve Gadd, a great drummer, 1:00:57.880 --> 1:01:00.520 was in school with me, was my classmate, and he 1:01:00.560 --> 1:01:03.000 didn't have any bass players who wanted to do gigs. 1:01:03.040 --> 1:01:05.360 We were all classical geeks, but I was a classical 1:01:05.400 --> 1:01:08.080 geek with a little bit of a streak of playing jazz. 1:01:08.080 --> 1:01:11.160 I had played a little jazz, and Steve somewhat. We 1:01:11.440 --> 1:01:14.600 began to work a lot with gap Maan Joni and 1:01:14.680 --> 1:01:16.640 then with Chuck Mangoni, and then with both of them 1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:20.439 a lot, like I mean, two gigs a day, six 1:01:20.480 --> 1:01:23.000 and a half hours a day, playing a lot, and 1:01:23.080 --> 1:01:26.200 he sort of mentored me in a quiet way, letting 1:01:26.280 --> 1:01:28.560 me learn how to play the feel of jazz, which 1:01:28.600 --> 1:01:30.320 I really wasn't good at at all. I was a 1:01:30.360 --> 1:01:36.200 classical guy, very interesting, and we put the time. We 1:01:36.320 --> 1:01:38.480 put the beat in a different place in jazz, or 1:01:38.520 --> 1:01:41.040 many different places, but a different place than classical, which 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.480 just puts it right smack in the middle of where 1:01:43.520 --> 1:01:46.760 it could be. And yeah, so that was an education 1:01:46.880 --> 1:01:48.920 for me. And then soon after a few years after that, 1:01:49.200 --> 1:01:50.880 when I started playing rock, and when I came to 1:01:50.960 --> 1:01:54.520 New York, I had to adjust that to playing on 1:01:54.680 --> 1:01:56.320 the beat or behind the beat to play rock. 1:01:58.080 --> 1:02:02.000 Okay, going to the Eastman's School of Music in Rochester. 1:02:02.120 --> 1:02:06.080 Your older brother had gone to Juilliard. Was there any 1:02:06.400 --> 1:02:10.600 doubt that you would go to music college? Why not 1:02:10.720 --> 1:02:12.960 that it's not a great place, but why Rochester. 1:02:14.680 --> 1:02:17.320 I don't really remember why that school. But I had 1:02:17.400 --> 1:02:19.600 never had doubts. Once I was in high school, I 1:02:19.640 --> 1:02:21.240 had no doubt that I was going to play bass 1:02:21.520 --> 1:02:25.920 in whatever way I could making a living for it 1:02:26.040 --> 1:02:28.640 would from it would be a bonus. But that wasn't 1:02:28.680 --> 1:02:31.080 in my thoughts the way it isn't in any sixteen 1:02:31.160 --> 1:02:33.040 year old thoughts. I knew I was going to play bass, 1:02:33.600 --> 1:02:38.200 and that's what I did. And probably I seem to 1:02:38.240 --> 1:02:42.080 remember applying to a few schools. I didn't really I 1:02:42.120 --> 1:02:44.160 didn't apply to Juilliard. I could have, but I didn't 1:02:44.440 --> 1:02:46.160 because my brother had gone there, and I thought I'll 1:02:46.200 --> 1:02:49.080 go off in my own direction. And maybe the Eastman 1:02:49.120 --> 1:02:51.400 School was a very good school for sure, and maybe 1:02:51.440 --> 1:02:54.520 the yes says I think back. They accepted me kind 1:02:54.520 --> 1:02:57.040 of early, and they said, if you let us know 1:02:57.160 --> 1:02:59.440 right away, you can come here and you'll get a scholarship. 1:02:59.680 --> 1:03:02.920 Whereas if I started looking into other schools. I think 1:03:02.920 --> 1:03:08.040 I applied to one in London, the Royal Royal Academy 1:03:08.120 --> 1:03:09.840 or something like that, but I never heard back from them, 1:03:09.840 --> 1:03:11.320 and I accepted the Eastman offer. 1:03:12.720 --> 1:03:17.520 Okay, another dumb question. Double bass, acoustic bass, whatever referring 1:03:17.600 --> 1:03:21.680 to it, has no frets. How do you decide and 1:03:21.880 --> 1:03:24.000 learn where to put your fingers and out of play? 1:03:24.960 --> 1:03:28.760 Wow? Well, I think my first teacher said this is 1:03:28.960 --> 1:03:31.000 ten years. It's going to take you ten years, but 1:03:31.200 --> 1:03:33.040 be glad you don't play the violin that will take 1:03:33.080 --> 1:03:38.040 twenty years. You learn it by practicing your hand position 1:03:38.160 --> 1:03:41.080 and putting it in the right hand, sorry, and putting 1:03:41.080 --> 1:03:43.360 it in the right place, and you practice a lot, 1:03:43.480 --> 1:03:46.640 a great deal. It's way harder than having threats. And 1:03:48.520 --> 1:03:50.640 the day that I switched to an instrument with frets 1:03:51.080 --> 1:03:54.160 was an interesting day for me because I missed having 1:03:54.240 --> 1:03:57.720 no frets. And later I found what's called a fretless bass, 1:03:58.120 --> 1:04:01.240 an electric bass that's fretless, and was very comfortable with that. 1:04:01.840 --> 1:04:06.040 I think it's more interesting to find bass players or 1:04:06.080 --> 1:04:08.360 guitar players who learned with frets and then make the 1:04:08.440 --> 1:04:10.640 switch to that fretless base. That must be very hard. 1:04:12.440 --> 1:04:18.240 Okay, you go to Rochester for six hours away from Boston. 1:04:18.400 --> 1:04:20.960 It's a cosmopolitan city, but kind of in the middle 1:04:21.000 --> 1:04:24.080 of nowhere. Good experience, bad experience. 1:04:24.400 --> 1:04:27.760 Well, I love the musical scene in Rochester. I was 1:04:27.840 --> 1:04:30.280 too young to know what the scene is in Boston. Frankly, 1:04:30.360 --> 1:04:33.160 there was the Berkeley School, but it was not even 1:04:33.200 --> 1:04:36.360 a legitimate school yet when I was there, And there 1:04:36.400 --> 1:04:38.120 were jazz clubs, but I couldn't get in them as 1:04:38.120 --> 1:04:40.480 a kid. So when I went to Rochester, it's really 1:04:40.960 --> 1:04:45.240 a mecca of really very good players, the cats of 1:04:45.440 --> 1:04:49.280 jazz players I'm talking about. There is a cultural affinity 1:04:49.400 --> 1:04:52.240 for orchestra also, of course, because of George Eastman and 1:04:52.280 --> 1:04:55.680 the Eastman School of Music. But I liked hanging out 1:04:55.720 --> 1:04:57.800 with those jazz players and I learned a lot from them. 1:04:57.880 --> 1:05:01.040 And it was intimidating, yes, being a a kid and 1:05:01.200 --> 1:05:04.440 a new player to jazz and going to clubs and 1:05:04.480 --> 1:05:06.760 trying to sit in when you're not really sure what 1:05:06.880 --> 1:05:08.480 the songs are and things like that. So I went 1:05:08.520 --> 1:05:12.240 through that. An interesting thing that happened. I couldn't hear 1:05:12.360 --> 1:05:16.360 myself particularly with the acoustic bass with the double bass, 1:05:17.040 --> 1:05:19.440 and so I got an electric one. Ampeg made one 1:05:19.520 --> 1:05:22.720 called the Baby Bass. Maybe they still make it, I 1:05:22.760 --> 1:05:24.720 don't know, but it didn't sound like much, but it 1:05:24.840 --> 1:05:26.640 was you've got an app and you could hear it. 1:05:27.200 --> 1:05:29.040 And I wasn't loving that. When I went to hear 1:05:29.120 --> 1:05:32.000 a band in Rochester that came into town. Jackie and 1:05:32.120 --> 1:05:35.000 Roy was the jazz band and Andy Musson was the 1:05:35.040 --> 1:05:38.280 bass player, and he was playing a Fender bass, which 1:05:38.320 --> 1:05:40.200 I had not heard of. Can you believe that I 1:05:40.240 --> 1:05:42.120 had never heard of a Fender base? And the kid 1:05:42.200 --> 1:05:44.200 I was, I want to to go up to Andy 1:05:44.240 --> 1:05:46.280 after the show. I know him now. He lives in 1:05:46.320 --> 1:05:48.360 the New York area like I do. I guess he's 1:05:48.360 --> 1:05:51.720 always lived in the New York area. Yeah, And I said, 1:05:52.160 --> 1:05:55.080 what's that you're playing? Where do I get one of those? 1:05:55.320 --> 1:05:58.520 And this is interesting? He told me, Okay, go to 1:05:58.600 --> 1:06:02.240 New York, go to Dan R. Strong's music guitar store 1:06:02.240 --> 1:06:05.439 in the village. But he said, this is important. Don't 1:06:05.480 --> 1:06:08.160 get a new one, get a used one. Those are 1:06:08.200 --> 1:06:12.880 the words he used because the expression vintage guitar or 1:06:12.960 --> 1:06:16.080 vintage bass didn't exist at the time, a used one 1:06:16.240 --> 1:06:18.840 was cheaper than a new one, and I did go 1:06:19.440 --> 1:06:22.080 to New York exactly. I took the train downs exactly 1:06:22.160 --> 1:06:25.160 he said to do, and the prices were exactly what 1:06:25.240 --> 1:06:27.600 he said. A new one at that time, we're talking 1:06:27.720 --> 1:06:30.240 mid sixties, a new Fender base was about two hundred 1:06:30.280 --> 1:06:33.160 twenty dollars, and a used one, by which I mean 1:06:33.240 --> 1:06:36.600 a nineteen fifties had their precision, it was one hundred 1:06:36.640 --> 1:06:39.280 eighty dollars. It was cheaper, so I got one. I 1:06:39.440 --> 1:06:41.400 brought it back on the train to Rochester and I 1:06:41.480 --> 1:06:45.520 played that only that bass for many, many years. Interesting, 1:06:45.600 --> 1:06:46.680 how the times have changed. 1:06:48.160 --> 1:06:49.360 You still have that bass? 1:06:49.960 --> 1:06:52.120 I do not. I lost it in the fire. Sadly, 1:06:52.200 --> 1:06:53.919 I lost a lot of my basses in a fire 1:06:54.000 --> 1:06:56.919 in my barn in the mid nineties. By that time, 1:06:57.680 --> 1:06:59.360 to be fair, I had stopped playing it, or I 1:06:59.400 --> 1:07:01.680 would have had with me on the road where I was. 1:07:02.960 --> 1:07:05.240 But still I wish I had it. Of course, I've 1:07:05.280 --> 1:07:06.880 had a lot of basses in my life, and I 1:07:07.080 --> 1:07:10.720 really came to appreciate and value them much more after 1:07:10.800 --> 1:07:14.080 I had lost some in that fire, and I switched 1:07:15.200 --> 1:07:18.760 in the late seventies early eighties, I switched to music 1:07:18.840 --> 1:07:22.439 Man bases designed by the way by Leo Fender, which 1:07:22.480 --> 1:07:27.240 were similar and similar in feel, but had more versatility 1:07:27.400 --> 1:07:30.080 and had more of the sound that we wanted at 1:07:30.120 --> 1:07:32.920 that time. We wanted more lows, more low end, and 1:07:33.640 --> 1:07:37.400 maybe sometimes more highs on rock records. Then the Fender 1:07:37.440 --> 1:07:40.280 precision could give me. The engineer could compensate, but it 1:07:40.360 --> 1:07:43.320 seemed like a better deal to walk in with the 1:07:43.400 --> 1:07:45.840 sound that's going to be appropriate for the piece. Then. 1:07:45.920 --> 1:07:48.920 Ever since, I've primarily played a music Man bassis. 1:07:50.280 --> 1:07:52.919 So what caused the fire and what did you lose 1:07:53.000 --> 1:07:55.480 in the fire? Oh? 1:07:56.760 --> 1:07:59.000 What caused the fire was it became winter and I 1:07:59.080 --> 1:08:03.720 had foolishly left papers on top of the heater in 1:08:03.840 --> 1:08:06.680 my garage. It was a barn kind of garage, and 1:08:06.760 --> 1:08:08.360 so the whole place started on fire, and I lost 1:08:08.400 --> 1:08:13.480 all my bases and amps. I have forgotten what but 1:08:13.560 --> 1:08:17.599 a lot of not a lot, six let's say, six 1:08:17.760 --> 1:08:21.320 really good basses and four or five amps. It's a 1:08:21.360 --> 1:08:23.760 shame to lose them. I have one bass which I 1:08:23.840 --> 1:08:26.120 could show you, but it won't come across an audio 1:08:26.600 --> 1:08:29.200 which survived it. It got half burnt. It was a 1:08:29.280 --> 1:08:32.360 base that was cream colored, light cream colored, and it 1:08:32.439 --> 1:08:35.759 turned amber in color, and part of it turned to charcoal, 1:08:35.880 --> 1:08:38.040 and I sent it very carefully back to Ernie Ball 1:08:38.160 --> 1:08:45.280 music Man with a note with a note that was 1:08:45.320 --> 1:08:47.760 it out of warranty, could fix it was a joking note, 1:08:48.600 --> 1:08:52.479 and they injected epoxy into the burnt part. And interestingly, 1:08:52.520 --> 1:08:54.720 I still play that bass a lot. I don't take 1:08:54.760 --> 1:08:56.360 it on the road because it would break if it 1:08:56.439 --> 1:08:59.320 fell down. But it lost all its moisture, so it 1:08:59.479 --> 1:09:02.320 changed and it's a little more thumpy and a little 1:09:02.360 --> 1:09:04.880 less sustained in a way that's really cool and really 1:09:05.640 --> 1:09:08.080 has its own I love basses that have their own sound, 1:09:08.200 --> 1:09:12.000 really most of them do. And part of part of 1:09:12.080 --> 1:09:13.960 my joy in this album bringing it down to the 1:09:14.000 --> 1:09:20.920 bass was was expressing how much I like the particular 1:09:21.040 --> 1:09:23.760 bass on each track. I wrote a little essay or 1:09:24.000 --> 1:09:26.640 poem about each bass, and I took a portrait of it, 1:09:26.800 --> 1:09:29.240 not in a studio, but out in the in the world, 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:32.479 in a place that seemed appropriate. And it was important 1:09:32.520 --> 1:09:34.240 to me with this album to have a booklet that 1:09:35.920 --> 1:09:38.000 had room for all of those photos of the basses. 1:09:39.640 --> 1:09:44.200 Okay, you know the guitars, you know, let's assume it's 1:09:44.240 --> 1:09:47.680 a new guitar. Guitars have them set up. They might 1:09:47.880 --> 1:09:51.280 change the pickups, the actions, et cetera. If you were 1:09:51.320 --> 1:09:53.479 to get a new bass from the fact factory, maybe 1:09:53.520 --> 1:09:55.760 in this case they make it to your specs, but 1:09:55.840 --> 1:09:58.680 I don't know. But generally speaking, you get a new bass, 1:09:58.880 --> 1:10:01.120 what would you change to make it the way you 1:10:01.439 --> 1:10:01.600 like it? 1:10:02.320 --> 1:10:04.479 Good question is this has to do with the way 1:10:04.880 --> 1:10:07.519 the person is, the musician is here's the way I am. 1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:10.679 If it sounds great, then I get it. I want 1:10:10.760 --> 1:10:13.160 that bass and I like it, and I don't change 1:10:13.200 --> 1:10:15.599 it at all. If it doesn't sound great, I don't 1:10:15.600 --> 1:10:19.120 really want that bass. I don't want to. Well, that's 1:10:19.240 --> 1:10:20.680 kind of the end of the story. I don't want it. 1:10:21.160 --> 1:10:25.000 I never was one who's who has the expertise to 1:10:25.080 --> 1:10:27.599 make a bass that doesn't sound good sound good. I mean, 1:10:27.640 --> 1:10:29.719 I can play the bass and change it a little 1:10:29.720 --> 1:10:31.600 bit with how I play it, But I'm not a 1:10:31.680 --> 1:10:35.000 bass redesigner, and I don't want to be. Why should I, 1:10:35.120 --> 1:10:37.400 Because there's basses that sound great when I pick them up. 1:10:37.640 --> 1:10:42.000 In fact, I gotta love what the basses give to me. 1:10:42.600 --> 1:10:44.080 I was very aware of this. Is I did this 1:10:44.200 --> 1:10:48.880 album so some basses just have a rock sound. You 1:10:49.120 --> 1:10:52.240 just play half of the rock sound. Songs are in 1:10:52.320 --> 1:10:54.719 the kivs right, So sometimes I'm just playing eighth notes 1:10:54.760 --> 1:10:57.599 on an E and it sounds really cool and really great, 1:10:57.680 --> 1:11:00.840 and I really appreciate you appreciate the bass gave that 1:11:00.960 --> 1:11:03.360 to me. I didn't. It was not my fingers doing that. 1:11:03.560 --> 1:11:06.800 It's just a gift from my friend, that bass. And 1:11:06.920 --> 1:11:08.720 you can bet that I play that bass a lot 1:11:08.840 --> 1:11:11.360 if it has that to give me. In a similar way, 1:11:11.400 --> 1:11:15.080 I play the NS electric upright. Need Steinberger designed that 1:11:15.160 --> 1:11:18.000 quite a while ago, and it sounds like very much 1:11:18.080 --> 1:11:20.080 like a double what we call it a double bass, 1:11:20.400 --> 1:11:23.120 but not exactly like it, but it has such a big, 1:11:23.479 --> 1:11:26.880 full round sound that if it's a ballot. This happened 1:11:27.000 --> 1:11:29.400 years ago. Peter Gabriel had a ballad and I took 1:11:29.439 --> 1:11:31.640 out that bass and I played a low G, just 1:11:31.760 --> 1:11:34.720 a G a long note, and Peter was like, oh, yes, 1:11:34.840 --> 1:11:38.040 that's what I want, and the engineer was, oh, that's great. 1:11:38.080 --> 1:11:43.160 If there was a producer, he was and there they're saying, well, man, Tony, 1:11:43.240 --> 1:11:46.880 you're great. And I am very happily taking credit for 1:11:47.040 --> 1:11:49.639 this instrument that gave me that. And by the way, 1:11:49.680 --> 1:11:52.960 ever since, whenever Peter does a ballad, he wants that 1:11:53.120 --> 1:11:56.320 bass on it, and I'm more than happy to do that, 1:11:56.479 --> 1:11:58.560 to be the guy that plays that bass. So I 1:11:58.640 --> 1:12:03.680 really appreciate how instruments are each different. And luckily, through 1:12:03.720 --> 1:12:05.920 the year, you know, one way or another, through the years, 1:12:06.120 --> 1:12:08.439 I've got a bunch of them. I could possibly get 1:12:08.479 --> 1:12:10.880 more in the future, but I have enough basses. Each 1:12:11.040 --> 1:12:13.320 sounds its own way in a very subtle way. The 1:12:13.320 --> 1:12:16.920 bass players would understand and would hear the difference, and 1:12:17.080 --> 1:12:18.880 they give me what I need, and I try to 1:12:18.920 --> 1:12:21.120 return the favor by making good music on them. 1:12:22.200 --> 1:12:23.920 How many basses do you presently own? 1:12:25.320 --> 1:12:28.760 I don't know exactly, but I recently did something I 1:12:28.840 --> 1:12:31.120 had never done. I assembled them all in one room 1:12:31.560 --> 1:12:33.840 and took a picture and made a jigsaw puzzle lot 1:12:33.880 --> 1:12:36.200 of it. In the title of the jigsaw puzzle is 1:12:36.240 --> 1:12:38.920 too many basses question mark. I don't know why I 1:12:39.000 --> 1:12:40.519 did that. I was just moved to do that. It was, 1:12:40.720 --> 1:12:42.880 frankly a lot of work, and I think I had 1:12:42.920 --> 1:12:48.720 about about sixteen or eighteen you know why, I don't 1:12:48.760 --> 1:12:51.160 know exactly, because it wasn't enough to fill up the room. 1:12:51.560 --> 1:12:53.920 And my good friend Scott Potito is a bass player 1:12:54.000 --> 1:12:57.439 and a bass collector, and I borrowed twenty of his basses. 1:12:57.560 --> 1:12:59.400 So in the end I had a room full of bases. 1:13:00.040 --> 1:13:02.200 I forgot to exactly account how many were mine. 1:13:03.200 --> 1:13:06.800 So let's say, for whatever reason you want a new bass, 1:13:08.000 --> 1:13:11.040 music Man will just send you something and you'll say 1:13:11.120 --> 1:13:13.760 yes or no. Well, you go to the factory and 1:13:13.840 --> 1:13:15.479 play five. How does it work? 1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:18.599 Well, in the old days I would go to the factory, 1:13:18.640 --> 1:13:22.320 but not anymore. Music man comes out. They're very Ernie 1:13:22.320 --> 1:13:25.080 Ball music may. When Ernie Ball bought the music Man 1:13:25.200 --> 1:13:30.719 Company from Leo Fender and Company, they didn't It's unusual. 1:13:30.800 --> 1:13:33.280 They didn't change it and lose what was special about it. 1:13:33.400 --> 1:13:36.479 They made tiny changes that made it more versatile. And 1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:38.439 so through the years, I'm the guy who was playing 1:13:38.439 --> 1:13:41.639 them and endorsing them before that, and I can appreciate 1:13:41.720 --> 1:13:45.040 that they never lost that. I don't know what, and 1:13:45.520 --> 1:13:47.720 I could never figure out what, but that magic that 1:13:47.880 --> 1:13:50.240 was special about that base. So once in a while, 1:13:50.479 --> 1:13:54.719 when they make an improvement, would they consider improvement? They'll 1:13:54.720 --> 1:13:57.760 ask me if I want one, and sometimes I don't, 1:13:58.200 --> 1:14:00.960 And sometimes if they'll say, well, this is really you're 1:14:01.000 --> 1:14:02.800 going to like this, Frank. You know what this happened 1:14:02.800 --> 1:14:08.320 about four years ago. They redesigned all of the elements 1:14:08.400 --> 1:14:12.240 to make it lighter weight, the five string, and they 1:14:12.320 --> 1:14:14.240 told me about it and I said, that's great, but 1:14:14.600 --> 1:14:16.559 I don't need it lighter weight, and they said, it's 1:14:16.640 --> 1:14:19.519 really a lot lighter weight. And at some point I 1:14:19.560 --> 1:14:21.240 don't remember where, I got to pick one up and 1:14:21.320 --> 1:14:23.560 it was like, wow, it's a lot lighter but it 1:14:23.680 --> 1:14:26.640 sounds the same and it hasn't lost anything. And I 1:14:26.760 --> 1:14:29.880 decided to try one out. And I then realized that 1:14:30.920 --> 1:14:33.680 the two hours I talked about the show, that's not 1:14:33.840 --> 1:14:36.040 a problem. But the six hours of rehearsing I do 1:14:36.200 --> 1:14:39.640 every day in some periods, boy, it's great having a 1:14:39.720 --> 1:14:43.720 light instrument. So once again I'm grateful to them for 1:14:43.880 --> 1:14:46.479 convincing me and talking me into trying at this lighter 1:14:46.520 --> 1:14:50.559 weight base, which became my default base to use because 1:14:50.760 --> 1:14:53.840 if only because it's so friendly to rehearse with. 1:14:55.120 --> 1:14:59.640 So you're not changing the pickups, what about strings? 1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:02.559 No, I use the strings to come on it. I'm 1:15:02.640 --> 1:15:06.320 lazy about changing them. I'm not a technical guy. A 1:15:06.640 --> 1:15:08.280 when I'm lucky and it's a big enough tour that 1:15:08.360 --> 1:15:12.080 I have a bass tech. His name is Mikaelai Russolto. 1:15:12.280 --> 1:15:14.320 He's an Italian guy that comes out with me for 1:15:14.439 --> 1:15:17.320 many years, since about nineteen ninety when it's that kind 1:15:17.320 --> 1:15:20.240 of band, and glad to have him. And I believe 1:15:20.320 --> 1:15:23.720 he changes the strings and doesn't tell me. Probably he's 1:15:23.800 --> 1:15:26.760 swearing back there saying, oh, he hasn't changed this since 1:15:26.800 --> 1:15:28.880 the last tour, but I don't feel the need to 1:15:28.960 --> 1:15:32.240 do it when I'm recording. Yeah, I leave the bass 1:15:32.280 --> 1:15:34.360 set up the way it is. Let me say, it's 1:15:34.360 --> 1:15:36.840 obvious to plat bass players and guitar players. You can 1:15:36.960 --> 1:15:39.040 change the sound a lot with your fingers, with how 1:15:39.120 --> 1:15:42.519 you play, where you pluck the string, and other things 1:15:42.600 --> 1:15:45.240 in the tone controls. So it's not like I never 1:15:45.720 --> 1:15:47.880 changed the sound of the bass. What I do a 1:15:47.960 --> 1:15:51.599 lot is put dampers under the strings. Music Man's original 1:15:51.680 --> 1:15:54.599 basses had dampers built in with a screw that were 1:15:54.720 --> 1:15:57.200 under the strings, and that was I think a Leo 1:15:57.280 --> 1:15:58.960 Fender idea, and then they took him off for a 1:15:59.000 --> 1:16:00.720 bunch of years and then they brought it back. But 1:16:00.840 --> 1:16:04.000 I always carry dampening material like foam rubber and things 1:16:04.080 --> 1:16:05.040 like that on the road with me. 1:16:12.720 --> 1:16:15.439 Did you finish school at Eastman? I did. 1:16:15.560 --> 1:16:18.240 I have a bachelor's degree that I haven't found a 1:16:18.280 --> 1:16:21.719 way to apply yet. But it's only been forty or fifty. 1:16:21.560 --> 1:16:30.840 Years, so you graduate from college. What's the vision, right, 1:16:32.200 --> 1:16:33.280 I'm not a vision guy. 1:16:33.320 --> 1:16:36.560 I wish I was. I had the same ethic that 1:16:36.640 --> 1:16:38.320 I had when I left high school, which is, oh, 1:16:38.360 --> 1:16:39.720 I'm going to play the bass and I'm going to 1:16:39.800 --> 1:16:42.000 meet some good players and play some good music. But 1:16:42.120 --> 1:16:47.200 now I'm playing jazz. I had a curious path after 1:16:47.280 --> 1:16:51.320 I left Rochester. The Buddy Rich band needed a bass player, 1:16:51.439 --> 1:16:53.800 and the manager of that band knew me and asked 1:16:53.840 --> 1:16:56.080 if I wanted to do it, which in those days 1:16:56.200 --> 1:16:58.479 meant leaving you don't have an apartment and go on 1:16:58.560 --> 1:17:00.840 the road with this is permanently on the road. So 1:17:00.960 --> 1:17:02.640 I took a deep breath and I thought, that's for me. 1:17:02.720 --> 1:17:04.080 I'm going to do it. And I got rid of 1:17:04.520 --> 1:17:07.000 my apartment and my furniture and all that stuff, and 1:17:07.040 --> 1:17:10.240 I said goodbye to everybody in Rochester, drove in my 1:17:10.400 --> 1:17:12.960 station wagon where I had my little bit of clothing 1:17:13.000 --> 1:17:17.200 and things, to Boston, where I found out that I 1:17:17.280 --> 1:17:19.880 showed up at the gig and they said that Buddy 1:17:19.920 --> 1:17:21.880 had changed his mind and talked the bass player into 1:17:21.920 --> 1:17:25.160 staying and I had no gig, and that was not 1:17:25.320 --> 1:17:27.880 my happiest night, but it was sort of yeah, you 1:17:27.920 --> 1:17:31.120 want to be in the music business, okay. So then 1:17:31.479 --> 1:17:35.280 I gave some quick thought to a going back to Rochester, 1:17:35.400 --> 1:17:37.719 where I had said goodbye and got rid of everything 1:17:37.760 --> 1:17:41.439 I had b staying with my folks in Boston being 1:17:41.520 --> 1:17:43.439 a I don't know what a twenty four to twenty 1:17:43.479 --> 1:17:46.439 five year old guy going back home or c turning 1:17:46.479 --> 1:17:48.960 around and going to New York City. And I chose, see, 1:17:49.439 --> 1:17:52.120 I might never have had the gumption to go to 1:17:52.240 --> 1:17:56.000 the Big Pond, but I did and stayed with a friend, 1:17:56.040 --> 1:17:58.280 a school friend, because I couldn't afford a place in 1:17:58.439 --> 1:18:01.479 New York. And fast forward a year year and a 1:18:01.520 --> 1:18:05.599 half and I was doing okay as a studio musician 1:18:06.640 --> 1:18:09.439 and the Buddy Rich came to town. The Buddy Rich 1:18:09.560 --> 1:18:12.200 band came to town and needed a bass player for 1:18:12.560 --> 1:18:14.719 two or three nights in a club and then recording 1:18:15.479 --> 1:18:17.920 the album The Roar of seventy four. So I know 1:18:18.040 --> 1:18:21.040 this now we're talking nineteen seventy four, and they called 1:18:21.080 --> 1:18:23.240 me to do that, and I did that, and each 1:18:23.400 --> 1:18:26.640 night after the show, Buddy would tell the manager, Oh, 1:18:26.720 --> 1:18:28.760 this guy's okay, ask him if I'll go on the 1:18:28.840 --> 1:18:30.920 road with us, and each night I said no thanks. 1:18:31.520 --> 1:18:35.040 I tried that. Buddy had no memory of that incident, 1:18:35.080 --> 1:18:37.599 and I wasn't about to tell him. So I got 1:18:37.640 --> 1:18:39.240 to play with I got to play in that band. 1:18:39.280 --> 1:18:44.000 But my leaving Rochester was under strange circumstances. I might 1:18:44.080 --> 1:18:46.200 never have let left. I don't know. So I'm not 1:18:46.320 --> 1:18:49.200 the guy that you questioned about who has the vision. 1:18:49.240 --> 1:18:50.760 Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go 1:18:50.880 --> 1:18:53.000 to New York be a studio musician, and then I'm 1:18:53.000 --> 1:18:54.639 going to meet Peter Gabriel and go on the road. 1:18:54.640 --> 1:18:56.360 And I'm going to be a road musician for the 1:18:56.400 --> 1:18:57.000 rest of my life. 1:18:58.240 --> 1:19:02.120 So that two years what first, you stayed with your friend, 1:19:02.240 --> 1:19:03.840 what happens in those two years? 1:19:05.280 --> 1:19:07.160 Stayed with a lot of friends. And then later my 1:19:07.280 --> 1:19:09.599 brother lived in Danbury, Connecticut, and I stayed with him 1:19:09.600 --> 1:19:12.040 because you can't just show up in New York and 1:19:13.760 --> 1:19:16.439 gig and make enough money. And gradually I met the 1:19:17.280 --> 1:19:20.519 let's see, I joined I joined a few bands. One 1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:23.840 interesting one was called AH the Attack of the Green 1:19:23.960 --> 1:19:26.880 Slime Beast. Perhaps you never heard of that band because 1:19:26.920 --> 1:19:30.559 we only ever did one gig that was with three 1:19:30.640 --> 1:19:33.000 members of the Mothers of Invention. So it was a 1:19:33.080 --> 1:19:35.880 very creative and interesting band. But as bands will do, 1:19:36.880 --> 1:19:40.680 we rehearsed a lot and at somebody's cabin in Greenwood Lake, 1:19:40.760 --> 1:19:44.160 and then we did the one gig, interesting gig by 1:19:44.200 --> 1:19:49.680 the way, where Meredith Monks Dance Troupe was doing improvised 1:19:49.760 --> 1:19:53.960 dance while we improvised on stage, and they had their 1:19:54.000 --> 1:19:58.120 bodies painted red and they were wearing kind of diaper 1:19:58.280 --> 1:20:01.120 kind of things. And one of the those dancers, who 1:20:01.320 --> 1:20:06.639 was a young aspiring actor named Danny DeVito. So yeah, 1:20:06.840 --> 1:20:09.160 later when I saw him, when he became well known 1:20:09.160 --> 1:20:11.160 and I saw him on TV, I said, I know 1:20:11.320 --> 1:20:13.840 that guy from that one gig we did in Philadelphia 1:20:14.240 --> 1:20:17.840 without AH the Attack of the Green Slime Beast. Wonderful times. 1:20:18.200 --> 1:20:20.080 So I was in a few bands like that, and 1:20:20.560 --> 1:20:23.920 I fell into what we called rehearsal bands that would 1:20:24.200 --> 1:20:26.200 go into a studio at eleven at night when the 1:20:26.200 --> 1:20:30.000 studio had no more sessions going on, and play into 1:20:30.080 --> 1:20:34.040 the night, mostly to give horn players a chance to play, 1:20:34.200 --> 1:20:36.599 to really play. The successful horn players in New York 1:20:36.640 --> 1:20:40.120 would do sessions all day, jingles and pop songs. Kind 1:20:40.120 --> 1:20:41.800 of want to play that. They want to play jazz, 1:20:41.880 --> 1:20:45.280 so that's why they went into music. And from being 1:20:45.360 --> 1:20:48.640 in a rehearsal band called White Elephant, I met a 1:20:48.680 --> 1:20:50.800 lot of great players, did a couple of albums of that, 1:20:51.280 --> 1:20:55.439 and sooner or later those later. It took a while, 1:20:55.520 --> 1:20:57.160 but some of those players that I knew from the 1:20:57.200 --> 1:20:59.280 band got me on sessions and I met other people 1:20:59.560 --> 1:21:03.040 and came what you call the studio player in those days. 1:21:03.040 --> 1:21:06.000 There was such a thing later that that profession kind 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:08.920 of went away because there weren't enough sessions being done 1:21:08.960 --> 1:21:11.600 in New York to provide a living to somebody. And 1:21:11.920 --> 1:21:14.880 I liked studio playing and I liked being that, but 1:21:15.040 --> 1:21:18.600 I felt unfulfilled. And when I had the chance to 1:21:18.680 --> 1:21:21.000 go on the road, which meant not being a session player, 1:21:21.080 --> 1:21:21.680 I jumped at that. 1:21:23.360 --> 1:21:28.559 Okay, In LA in that era, there were the a players, 1:21:28.640 --> 1:21:32.360 usually one person who might be getting double or triple scale, 1:21:32.479 --> 1:21:35.320 doing two or three sessions a day, and then there 1:21:35.360 --> 1:21:37.599 were a couple of other people, but really there were 1:21:37.680 --> 1:21:39.760 you know, one or two people who played when you 1:21:39.880 --> 1:21:43.360 were playing sessions as a bass player, at what level 1:21:43.439 --> 1:21:46.040 were you and who were the other bass players, if any? 1:21:46.960 --> 1:21:49.439 New York were were very different seeing in LA and 1:21:50.160 --> 1:21:53.160 most of the records that I knew about were not 1:21:54.800 --> 1:21:58.559 those the ones we've seen in the movie the famous 1:21:58.760 --> 1:22:00.080 this is going to be a hit record. Some of 1:22:00.120 --> 1:22:01.560 them were that way, but most of them were not. 1:22:01.720 --> 1:22:04.679 They were just more just a huge volume of records 1:22:04.760 --> 1:22:09.320 being made and coming out, and they were the players 1:22:09.360 --> 1:22:11.560 were equal. Nobody was getting No one that I know 1:22:12.280 --> 1:22:15.439 was getting double scale for anything. And in fact, we 1:22:15.560 --> 1:22:18.960 all had the same answering service. Would you call It 1:22:19.120 --> 1:22:21.640 was called radio registry who just had a list of 1:22:21.960 --> 1:22:25.280 bass players in The contractor would give him maybe eight 1:22:25.400 --> 1:22:27.400 names of bass players, he didn't care who showed up, 1:22:27.920 --> 1:22:32.720 and they would they the answering company would call, go 1:22:32.880 --> 1:22:34.880 down the list, and if you didn't answer the phone, 1:22:35.120 --> 1:22:36.759 they would go to And there were no cell phones, 1:22:36.800 --> 1:22:39.479 by the way, There were phones in every studio and 1:22:39.800 --> 1:22:42.920 sometimes a direct phone to this radio registry, and if 1:22:42.920 --> 1:22:44.800 you didn't answer, they just greet the second guy. So 1:22:44.960 --> 1:22:47.800 the contractor and the arranger didn't really know who's going 1:22:47.880 --> 1:22:50.000 to come to this session. So it was really very 1:22:50.080 --> 1:22:53.559 different than the much more refined thing that had going 1:22:53.600 --> 1:22:55.960 on in LA, where they really cared and they really 1:22:55.960 --> 1:22:58.639 had people who were going to construct, hopefully a hit record, 1:22:59.120 --> 1:23:01.960 whereas we New York, at least in the circles that 1:23:02.040 --> 1:23:05.000 I was in, we were reading charts and doing just 1:23:05.760 --> 1:23:10.120 regular records and sometimes film. There's also a lot of 1:23:10.200 --> 1:23:12.400 film in LA, but not so much in New York. 1:23:13.520 --> 1:23:15.639 Okay, So you said you were doing that, and then 1:23:15.680 --> 1:23:18.400 you got invited to go on the road. What was 1:23:18.439 --> 1:23:20.040 the first act you went on the road with. 1:23:21.439 --> 1:23:24.519 I was going spending weekends on the road with Gary Burton, 1:23:24.560 --> 1:23:28.519 a jazz wonderful jazz, a vibraphone player, and with Herbie Man. 1:23:28.760 --> 1:23:32.439 Herbie for years had different band every weekend, but I 1:23:32.560 --> 1:23:36.240 played with him for years, and mostly he intentionally did 1:23:36.320 --> 1:23:38.920 weekend shows. We'd go out for the weekend and let 1:23:38.960 --> 1:23:40.599 the guys get back to New York to do their 1:23:40.640 --> 1:23:43.560 sessions during the week. That wasn't so important to me, 1:23:43.720 --> 1:23:46.240 but it was okay, So I did that probably for 1:23:46.320 --> 1:23:49.720 a few years. I also played with This is really 1:23:51.280 --> 1:23:53.400 digging into my memory. I don't think about this very 1:23:53.439 --> 1:23:56.439 often Mary Travers of Peter, Paul and Mary was a 1:23:56.479 --> 1:23:59.559 solo act, and later I did the same with Judy 1:23:59.760 --> 1:24:03.160 Call a lot of weekends, maybe a few others that 1:24:03.200 --> 1:24:06.240 I'm forgetting, So weekends were spent out on the road. 1:24:07.280 --> 1:24:11.240 But the big change for me was when producer Bob 1:24:11.320 --> 1:24:16.400 Ezrin asked me to play at this session for a 1:24:16.479 --> 1:24:18.680 young guy, Peter Gabriel, whom I didn't know, and I 1:24:18.760 --> 1:24:21.400 went up to Toronto and met Peter and met Robert 1:24:21.439 --> 1:24:23.880 Fripp and I played on his album. And when he 1:24:23.960 --> 1:24:25.479 asked me to go on the road, that wasn't for 1:24:25.520 --> 1:24:28.240 a weekend. That was for a real tour, a rock tour, 1:24:28.680 --> 1:24:31.240 and I was all one hundred percent into doing that 1:24:31.439 --> 1:24:34.479 because playing this music live is why I went into music. 1:24:34.840 --> 1:24:37.320 I don't mind recording, but I love playing live and 1:24:37.439 --> 1:24:40.400 having the audience be part of the whole thing that's 1:24:40.439 --> 1:24:43.400 going on. So that was the beginning of the end 1:24:43.439 --> 1:24:48.200 of my career as a studio player, but happily beginning 1:24:48.280 --> 1:24:50.320 of my career as a road player. 1:24:51.360 --> 1:24:54.840 How'd you know Israel? I don't know how I. 1:24:54.920 --> 1:24:57.519 First know him. That was not the first album he 1:24:57.920 --> 1:25:01.200 asked me to play on. I'll ask him how we met, 1:25:01.240 --> 1:25:03.320 I don't remember. I had played at that time on 1:25:03.479 --> 1:25:06.080 Lou Reed's Berlin album and on a number of Alice 1:25:06.160 --> 1:25:09.240 Cooper records. Those are the only ones I remember doing 1:25:09.280 --> 1:25:12.680 with Bob, and he just he thought of me. Bless him. 1:25:12.680 --> 1:25:15.439 He thought, this studio guy, he's a rock player. He 1:25:15.720 --> 1:25:18.000 wants to be playing distorted bass and that stuff. And 1:25:18.680 --> 1:25:21.320 he was right, and he heard that, and I happily 1:25:21.360 --> 1:25:21.800 went along. 1:25:23.280 --> 1:25:26.000 At what point did you develop your look of the 1:25:26.280 --> 1:25:27.800 mustache and the shaved head. 1:25:28.960 --> 1:25:36.320 I'm squeamish about the expression developed my look because that 1:25:36.520 --> 1:25:39.240 wasn't the way it came about, But I guess it's sort. 1:25:39.120 --> 1:25:40.120 Of how did it come up? 1:25:40.160 --> 1:25:43.320 Yeah, one summer it was hot, it was really hot, 1:25:43.400 --> 1:25:45.960 and I said, heck with this, I'm cutting off my hair. 1:25:46.720 --> 1:25:49.960 And I did it regularly that summer, and for a 1:25:50.040 --> 1:25:52.160 few years, as soon as it got cold at Chili 1:25:52.280 --> 1:25:54.920 in September, I would grow both hair and beard through 1:25:54.960 --> 1:25:57.400 the winter. I was certainly not concerned with how I looked. 1:25:57.600 --> 1:26:01.320 I looked pretty pretty strange both ways. At that time, 1:26:01.400 --> 1:26:05.280 which is a long time ago, it was unusual to 1:26:05.360 --> 1:26:07.679 be bald. I can describe it in this way. People 1:26:08.000 --> 1:26:10.320 of people on the street who just couldn't help but 1:26:10.439 --> 1:26:14.920 say something, would say, hey, you'll referring to yul Brenner. 1:26:16.000 --> 1:26:19.479 Later they would say hey, Kojak. Not much later, maybe 1:26:19.840 --> 1:26:23.040 you're half six months a year. And again these are 1:26:23.479 --> 1:26:26.320 people I don't care, but people without a filter. And 1:26:26.680 --> 1:26:28.800 that's fine. You just have to say something to a 1:26:28.840 --> 1:26:32.479 bald guy. Kids would point, you know, kids, oh look, daddy, 1:26:32.520 --> 1:26:34.719 that guy got no hair. So it was very unusual. 1:26:34.800 --> 1:26:37.920 It was interesting that I was that way. Then maybe 1:26:37.960 --> 1:26:40.840 there were some other rock players without hair. I don't 1:26:40.840 --> 1:26:43.920 really know, but not that many years later it became 1:26:44.240 --> 1:26:48.599 quite common because guys, you know, for a number of reasons, 1:26:48.640 --> 1:26:50.200 but one of them is guys realizing they have no 1:26:50.280 --> 1:26:52.080 more hair on top, might as well cut the whole 1:26:52.120 --> 1:26:55.000 thing off. And and for me, after a couple of 1:26:55.120 --> 1:26:59.000 years of the beard, uh, I would say a little 1:26:59.000 --> 1:27:01.439 bit of vanity crept in. And so many people told me, hey, 1:27:01.520 --> 1:27:03.960 you look good without the hair, and hey, you don't 1:27:04.000 --> 1:27:06.599 look so great with the beard and the semi hair, 1:27:07.000 --> 1:27:08.840 and I just kept shaving. So that was it. I 1:27:08.880 --> 1:27:10.720 don't really remember where the mustache came in. 1:27:12.800 --> 1:27:15.360 Do you ever change your look now? Do you ever 1:27:15.479 --> 1:27:18.280 say hey, I'm sick of this. I want to go incognitum, 1:27:18.360 --> 1:27:20.640 let my hair grow, shave my mustache. 1:27:20.800 --> 1:27:22.680 I can't do it so much I used to. I 1:27:22.800 --> 1:27:25.519 used to change be way into changing the look with 1:27:25.640 --> 1:27:29.040 different hair lengths. I've had shoulder length hair. I never 1:27:29.120 --> 1:27:30.479 had a lot of hair on top. But I had 1:27:30.520 --> 1:27:34.400 shoulder length hair and full beard. But it can't change 1:27:34.439 --> 1:27:36.800 it much. I think the I think once in a 1:27:36.880 --> 1:27:39.240 while I'll grow a little more of a beard or 1:27:39.360 --> 1:27:41.599 what do you call it, a vandyke, But pretty much 1:27:41.600 --> 1:27:43.320 I don't. And it's not because I wouldn't like to. 1:27:43.360 --> 1:27:45.519 It's just a I don't have the materials anymore. Through 1:27:45.560 --> 1:27:47.519 the hair is not growing, and I will say that 1:27:47.600 --> 1:27:50.200 I die my mustache, of course, because it would be 1:27:50.600 --> 1:27:52.000 almost invisible if I didn't. 1:27:52.640 --> 1:27:59.760 Okay, few technical questions. Traditional p bass four strings? Why 1:28:00.120 --> 1:28:02.759 four y five y six? 1:28:04.600 --> 1:28:09.360 Wow? I think the four decision was made maybe in 1:28:09.400 --> 1:28:12.519 the eighteen hundreds. My dogs have entered the house. By 1:28:12.520 --> 1:28:15.559 the way, I think the decision for four strings was made. 1:28:16.520 --> 1:28:18.960 What we call the upright bass was developed. I'm not 1:28:19.000 --> 1:28:21.799 sure the history of that. I only played four strings. 1:28:23.439 --> 1:28:26.120 I guess in classical we had an extender for the 1:28:26.280 --> 1:28:28.280 low east ring that would bring it down to a 1:28:28.360 --> 1:28:31.360 low sea, a little device, mechanical device on the top 1:28:31.400 --> 1:28:35.080 that you could have your base adjusted to have that, 1:28:35.479 --> 1:28:37.840 and it was necessary for some symphonies, but not for 1:28:37.960 --> 1:28:41.439 most of them. And then when I moved to Fender base, 1:28:41.760 --> 1:28:45.120 it only had four strings. Later, much later, when music banned, 1:28:45.160 --> 1:28:48.000 there were five strings, but I wasn't interested in trying them. 1:28:48.520 --> 1:28:50.680 It's funny when I think about myself, I guess I'm 1:28:50.720 --> 1:28:54.360 a combination of being very open to new ideas like 1:28:54.439 --> 1:28:56.439 the Chapman stick and the funk fingers and things that 1:28:56.520 --> 1:28:59.600 are really weird, and in a way being not adventurous 1:28:59.640 --> 1:29:02.000 at all and not trying a five string based because 1:29:02.040 --> 1:29:04.840 I just wasn't interested. But when Ernie Ball music man 1:29:04.920 --> 1:29:08.320 said we got a five string, and I think, I said, well, 1:29:08.600 --> 1:29:11.040 does the E sound the same? Because the other five 1:29:11.080 --> 1:29:12.960 strings I've played, the E doesn't sound the same. And 1:29:13.760 --> 1:29:15.920 the E is my life, that's where I live, that's 1:29:15.960 --> 1:29:17.880 what I want. I want that E to have that power. 1:29:17.880 --> 1:29:20.160 And they said it does and it did, so boom. 1:29:20.200 --> 1:29:22.719 I played five string and pretty much only five string 1:29:23.080 --> 1:29:26.320 for quite a while. Of course, at my home studio 1:29:26.360 --> 1:29:28.400 I have the four strings, which have their own sound, 1:29:28.439 --> 1:29:30.680 and I use them plenty. And by the way, on 1:29:30.760 --> 1:29:33.000 the upcoming beat the tour, I will do what I 1:29:33.080 --> 1:29:35.040 did in the eighties. I'll play that bass with the 1:29:35.320 --> 1:29:39.000 four strings and in the same bass, with the same sound. 1:29:39.040 --> 1:29:42.840 It'll be great. As for other the six strings I've 1:29:42.920 --> 1:29:45.840 never tried to this day, and I don't know why 1:29:45.840 --> 1:29:48.160 I haven't tried it. It just hasn't fallen into my hands. 1:29:48.360 --> 1:29:51.280 I do play the Chapman sticks, which mine has twelve strings, 1:29:51.320 --> 1:29:54.640 so I can handle more strings. But on all of 1:29:54.720 --> 1:29:57.599 these really what I'm looking for is to be able 1:29:57.680 --> 1:30:02.080 to do a versatile and worthwhile and meaningful bass sound 1:30:02.680 --> 1:30:05.000 on the low notes. And if it's got high stuff, 1:30:05.040 --> 1:30:07.080 that's good, that's a bonus. But it's those low notes 1:30:07.160 --> 1:30:08.880 that matter to me. When I first heard of the 1:30:08.960 --> 1:30:11.840 Chaplain stick, when I first tried it, I found it 1:30:11.960 --> 1:30:14.760 very different than the bass and really suitable for the 1:30:14.920 --> 1:30:17.600 progressive rock stuff I was doing, the odd of the 1:30:18.000 --> 1:30:20.920 ordinary of stuff I was doing in the early eighties 1:30:20.960 --> 1:30:23.680 with King Crimson, and also down low. It had not 1:30:23.920 --> 1:30:26.000 the big, fat sound that I always wanted, and not 1:30:26.080 --> 1:30:29.799 the powerful sound, but a lot of articulation so suddenly 1:30:29.880 --> 1:30:35.000 I could play very fast, very low, and I thought, well, 1:30:35.040 --> 1:30:37.240 there were some certain situations where I'm going to want that, 1:30:37.360 --> 1:30:40.120 and those situations are going to bring out this instrument, 1:30:40.439 --> 1:30:42.760 but only in those For years, I only brought it 1:30:42.840 --> 1:30:44.120 out in those situations. 1:30:52.000 --> 1:30:55.439 Okay, I certainly remember going to see shows all of 1:30:55.479 --> 1:30:59.200 a sudden the Chapman stick appearing to me. It seemed 1:30:59.240 --> 1:31:01.920 like it's sort of heat and it's not as popular now. 1:31:02.800 --> 1:31:05.439 For those who don't know, tell us exactly what the 1:31:05.600 --> 1:31:06.560 Chapman stick is. 1:31:07.439 --> 1:31:11.200 Yes, Emma Chapman in about I'm guessing nineteen seventy five 1:31:11.280 --> 1:31:14.479 invented it and it's or finished inventing his instrument and 1:31:14.640 --> 1:31:17.200 released it. That's designed to be played with a hammer 1:31:17.320 --> 1:31:19.960 on or a tapping technique. So you don't fret the 1:31:20.040 --> 1:31:22.120 note the way you do on a bass or guitar 1:31:22.439 --> 1:31:25.280 with your left hand and plunk plucket. You don't do that. 1:31:25.360 --> 1:31:28.080 You just touch the fret with your left hand or 1:31:28.160 --> 1:31:30.639 your right hand and the note comes out, which involves, 1:31:30.960 --> 1:31:33.479 of course the strings being set up very low action, 1:31:33.840 --> 1:31:36.160 so you don't have to really hammer on. I call 1:31:36.240 --> 1:31:39.559 that hammeron playing, but it isn't. You can just touch 1:31:39.600 --> 1:31:42.880 it and amme it at the same time developed an 1:31:42.960 --> 1:31:47.160 instrument vertical, not at the same angle as a guitar 1:31:47.640 --> 1:31:51.360 that hooks in your belt hook sorry, it hooks into 1:31:51.439 --> 1:31:53.519 your belt so you can play it in a vertical way. 1:31:53.800 --> 1:31:57.599 And his instrument had five bass strings and five guitar 1:31:57.720 --> 1:32:01.120 strings on the same neck with a stereo output. So 1:32:01.240 --> 1:32:04.599 for the first time I had heard of of any instrument, 1:32:04.680 --> 1:32:07.120 it had two outputs that are completely two different instruments. 1:32:07.280 --> 1:32:11.200 And if that wasn't unusual enough, the hammer on and 1:32:11.280 --> 1:32:15.639 the stereo output, Emmett decided to have the guitar strings 1:32:15.680 --> 1:32:17.720 be tuned in forth and the bass strings tuned in 1:32:17.800 --> 1:32:22.200 fifths and backwards. So you have a very unusual instrument 1:32:22.880 --> 1:32:26.560 outside of the norm. And it's kind of easy to 1:32:26.600 --> 1:32:28.160 pick in a way. It's easy to pick it up 1:32:28.160 --> 1:32:30.000 and play it because you don't have to have that 1:32:30.280 --> 1:32:32.679 fretting and plucking. You just touch a note and there's 1:32:32.720 --> 1:32:34.760 your note put in a way for some especially for 1:32:34.880 --> 1:32:36.680 some of us, it's kind of hard to get used to. 1:32:37.320 --> 1:32:40.600 So I jumped on it early for the reason that 1:32:40.720 --> 1:32:42.880 I used to play the I still do play the 1:32:43.280 --> 1:32:45.760 bass with a hammer on technique, and I thought I 1:32:45.880 --> 1:32:48.040 got to try this instrument. It's designed to be played 1:32:48.080 --> 1:32:51.640 that way and by the way. Eventually there became a 1:32:51.720 --> 1:32:54.120 twelve string instrument and that's what I play now. And 1:32:54.200 --> 1:32:58.320 a few years ago, quite a few ten fifteen years ago, 1:32:58.600 --> 1:33:02.120 I decided to form a group called stick Men, where 1:33:02.120 --> 1:33:04.400 we only played the Chapman stick, two of us and 1:33:04.760 --> 1:33:09.479 a drummer, Pat Macelado. And then after a few years 1:33:10.160 --> 1:33:12.600 the other stick players replaced by Marcus reuter Or, a 1:33:12.680 --> 1:33:15.960 great touch guitar player, who he played the Chapman stick, 1:33:16.000 --> 1:33:18.719 and then he developed his own instrument called the touch guitar, 1:33:18.960 --> 1:33:21.120 which is played the same way but has kind of 1:33:21.160 --> 1:33:22.240 different elements to it. 1:33:24.240 --> 1:33:28.360 So my perception is is it's not as popular as 1:33:28.400 --> 1:33:31.800 it was in the seventies. Is that correct or incorrect. 1:33:32.479 --> 1:33:35.760 I'm not the guy who would know. I could write 1:33:35.800 --> 1:33:39.600 an uncomfortable email to stick enterprises and ask them, but 1:33:39.880 --> 1:33:41.800 I have no idea. I know, once in a while 1:33:42.320 --> 1:33:46.240 I hear other players, and I'm always impressed with the 1:33:46.360 --> 1:33:49.080 things they do that I couldn't do, And maybe if 1:33:49.120 --> 1:33:52.000 I practiced, I could. It's kind of a Wild West 1:33:52.439 --> 1:33:55.680 instrument in that you can develop your own technique, you 1:33:55.760 --> 1:33:58.639 can have your hands wherever you want. So players are 1:33:58.920 --> 1:34:01.040 always finding things to do that the rest of us 1:34:01.080 --> 1:34:03.679 didn't think of. And that's a wild thing about the instrument. 1:34:03.880 --> 1:34:05.599 But how many people are buying it and how many 1:34:05.640 --> 1:34:07.800 people are playing it is really not something I know about. 1:34:09.080 --> 1:34:13.360 So when would you use it with someone else's music? 1:34:15.160 --> 1:34:19.200 Easy to talk about, Peter. I go show up at 1:34:19.240 --> 1:34:21.640 Peter gabriel session, which I did about a year and 1:34:21.640 --> 1:34:25.800 a half ago for what became the Io album, And 1:34:25.920 --> 1:34:28.280 I have in my trunk of basses a fretless and 1:34:28.760 --> 1:34:31.479 that NS electric upright, and a five string and a 1:34:31.520 --> 1:34:33.680 four string and a vintage four string, and I have 1:34:33.760 --> 1:34:36.519 the Chapman stick. And he plays the piece, and I 1:34:37.880 --> 1:34:42.160 don't think the musical part of my brain becomes quickly 1:34:42.240 --> 1:34:45.040 attached to whatever he's playing and singing, whether he's doing 1:34:45.080 --> 1:34:47.080 it live or playing a recording of what he's got 1:34:47.240 --> 1:34:50.439 down so far, And I become a fan of that 1:34:50.640 --> 1:34:53.719 piece of music. I'm saying with Peter Gabriel it would 1:34:53.720 --> 1:34:56.519 be the same somebody else. I become a fan of that, 1:34:56.640 --> 1:34:59.599 and I kind of start fashioning in my musical brain 1:35:00.800 --> 1:35:03.240 what sound might be good for it, and if it 1:35:03.320 --> 1:35:03.640 could be. 1:35:04.040 --> 1:35:04.719 Very low. 1:35:06.120 --> 1:35:08.200 Okay, the stick. Hey, the stick does that. Or it 1:35:08.240 --> 1:35:10.439 could be chords way up high in a way that 1:35:10.520 --> 1:35:12.360 the stick does well. Or it could be a big 1:35:12.479 --> 1:35:16.200 fat sound that the NS electric upright gives me. Or 1:35:16.240 --> 1:35:18.920 it could be a heavy rock sound that my music 1:35:19.000 --> 1:35:21.920 man four string might be good. So I don't think 1:35:21.960 --> 1:35:24.640 about it, but I kind of get a sense of 1:35:24.760 --> 1:35:27.679 what sound would be good, and then I look around 1:35:27.720 --> 1:35:29.920 at the instruments I have, and maybe I think, well, 1:35:30.240 --> 1:35:32.479 this bass would be good, but only if I put 1:35:32.920 --> 1:35:35.439 foam rubber under the strings or something like that to 1:35:35.560 --> 1:35:38.320 make it more dampened than shorter notes. And that's how 1:35:38.360 --> 1:35:41.880 I choose what to play. And by the way, Peter 1:35:42.040 --> 1:35:44.600 might hear it and say I think I'd like the 1:35:44.680 --> 1:35:47.479 upright on that, and case I make a quick switch. 1:35:47.560 --> 1:35:50.960 But it's a musical decision. Sorry for the long answer 1:35:50.960 --> 1:35:55.320 to your short question. Not an intellectual decision or not 1:35:55.479 --> 1:35:57.760 based on history. I just kind of go by what 1:35:57.920 --> 1:35:59.880 it feels like would be the right instrument for that 1:36:00.200 --> 1:36:01.080 particular piece. 1:36:02.240 --> 1:36:04.680 What about Jock Opustorius. 1:36:05.520 --> 1:36:07.560 Obviously a great player For those who don't know, he 1:36:07.680 --> 1:36:13.679 was maybe the most famously great jazz fretless bass player 1:36:13.720 --> 1:36:16.200 of all time. I met him a couple of times, 1:36:17.120 --> 1:36:20.639 and my brother played with him a lot. I'll tell 1:36:20.640 --> 1:36:24.920 you an interesting thing about his playing and mine intersecting 1:36:25.080 --> 1:36:27.519 in a funny way. I heard about him when he 1:36:27.600 --> 1:36:29.240 came out with a solo album and I heard it 1:36:29.320 --> 1:36:32.640 and I thought it was great, but not really kind of. 1:36:33.320 --> 1:36:38.640 It was very technical and almost phenomenally technical, and I 1:36:38.800 --> 1:36:40.680 wasn't interested in that. It was pretty musical, and I 1:36:40.840 --> 1:36:45.160 liked that, okay. And then two things happened. I found 1:36:45.200 --> 1:36:48.560 myself on a session. I don't usually play solos, but 1:36:48.600 --> 1:36:50.240 I was on a session one day in a studio 1:36:51.200 --> 1:36:52.680 and there was a bass solo and I said, you 1:36:52.720 --> 1:36:55.000 know what, I'll overdub it. So the other guys went 1:36:55.040 --> 1:36:58.160 out and into the control room and I'm playing a 1:36:58.360 --> 1:37:01.640 rare jazz bass and I see Jacko coming in to 1:37:01.720 --> 1:37:04.680 the control horrum and I thought, you couldn't script this 1:37:04.840 --> 1:37:08.160 better than this. You know, not a nightmare, but this 1:37:08.360 --> 1:37:10.920 is really awkward. I can barely play this file. And 1:37:11.000 --> 1:37:13.000 now Jacko was listening to me. So there was that. 1:37:13.680 --> 1:37:18.799 But also when he played on Joni Mitchell's Hegira record, 1:37:19.439 --> 1:37:22.400 that was a whole different thing for me. His playing 1:37:22.560 --> 1:37:27.400 was so sublime that I didn't want to hear myself 1:37:27.439 --> 1:37:30.759 play the Fretless anymore. So I put away the Fretless 1:37:30.920 --> 1:37:33.080 and for ten years I didn't play the Fretless at all. 1:37:33.439 --> 1:37:36.439 I thought I'll never play it again, because, yeah, I 1:37:36.520 --> 1:37:40.800 think I already expressed it well, but I couldn't. He 1:37:41.000 --> 1:37:43.639 was playing the way I dreamed I might be able 1:37:43.680 --> 1:37:45.599 to play. And I don't mean fast, just the right 1:37:45.720 --> 1:37:48.560 notes and the right sound and impeccably in tune and 1:37:48.760 --> 1:37:52.960 phrasing that's just doesn't get in the way of the piece, 1:37:53.080 --> 1:37:57.040 but on its own, the phrasing is magical. So I 1:37:57.360 --> 1:38:00.360 just couldn't hear myself doing that. And yeah, after a 1:38:00.439 --> 1:38:03.360 whole long time, someone asked me to play Fretless and 1:38:03.439 --> 1:38:06.360 I had, frankly to tell you the truth. I had forgotten. 1:38:07.000 --> 1:38:11.519 I've forgotten how I felt hearing Hajira, and so I said, okay, 1:38:11.520 --> 1:38:13.560 I'll try. I'll play Fretless again. And I've later a 1:38:13.560 --> 1:38:16.400 great deal since, and I've got over that hump of 1:38:16.560 --> 1:38:21.120 not comparing myself in any way to Jacko was playing any. 1:38:21.040 --> 1:38:24.559 Other bass players who you look up to or think 1:38:24.640 --> 1:38:28.960 are great and either have recognition or deserve recognition. 1:38:30.400 --> 1:38:33.880 I think names don't come to mind. But I am 1:38:33.960 --> 1:38:38.559 influenced by a whole lot of bass players, a whole lot. 1:38:38.640 --> 1:38:41.280 And from the beginning I mentioned Oscar Petiford back when 1:38:41.280 --> 1:38:44.280 I was ten years old, So I in a way, 1:38:44.320 --> 1:38:47.040 I think we bass players, not just me. When we 1:38:47.120 --> 1:38:50.599 listen to any music, we're sort of aware on some level. 1:38:50.640 --> 1:38:52.880 We're aware of what the bass player is doing and 1:38:53.000 --> 1:38:55.400 if it works, and if it doesn't work. It could 1:38:55.400 --> 1:38:58.439 even be even some record I'm not talking about live 1:38:59.560 --> 1:39:04.679 or in the here's something and jeez, names aren't coming 1:39:04.720 --> 1:39:09.040 to mind, but the base is just doing exactly the 1:39:09.160 --> 1:39:11.040 right thing, and I'll think, oh yeah, and I'll try 1:39:11.080 --> 1:39:15.639 and obviously I'll try and incorporate that into my musical 1:39:15.720 --> 1:39:18.560 sense of what might work, or I'll here in some 1:39:18.720 --> 1:39:21.120 way it could be sonically that the bass and drums 1:39:21.160 --> 1:39:23.760 don't work together or something like that, and I'll think, well, 1:39:23.960 --> 1:39:25.919 I don't want to do that. So I'm being influenced 1:39:26.000 --> 1:39:27.599 all the time, and I think a lot of bass 1:39:27.640 --> 1:39:30.479 players are by a lot of players, And the only 1:39:30.560 --> 1:39:32.800 thing that's changed in the last few years is the 1:39:33.000 --> 1:39:36.040 young players who are there on YouTube for us to 1:39:36.120 --> 1:39:38.640 hear doing things that I could never do. And I 1:39:38.760 --> 1:39:42.479 will never do also influence me. And I decided in 1:39:42.600 --> 1:39:45.080 that lockdown year, when I had time to I wasn't 1:39:45.120 --> 1:39:46.920 doing so many records, and I had time to listen 1:39:46.960 --> 1:39:49.639 a lot. I decided to look at them as more 1:39:49.720 --> 1:39:53.639 my teachers than where do I fit into what's being 1:39:53.680 --> 1:39:56.599 going on now? And in some cases I would if 1:39:56.640 --> 1:39:59.040 it's a video and I can see the person's finger 1:40:00.040 --> 1:40:02.560 and it's a woman player, and that's great. Now I 1:40:02.640 --> 1:40:06.000 can see how they held their wrists or something like that, 1:40:06.200 --> 1:40:10.120 or their fingers the palm of their hand to dampen 1:40:10.160 --> 1:40:11.560 the notes, and I'll try and learn from that. 1:40:12.240 --> 1:40:15.200 Okay, you work with Peter Gabriel on the Flour solo album, 1:40:15.320 --> 1:40:17.679 you meet Frip, you go on the road with Frip. 1:40:18.080 --> 1:40:21.160 It's his act, not yours. That two ends. 1:40:21.320 --> 1:40:25.960 Then what you mean the first Peter Gabriel tour, No, 1:40:26.280 --> 1:40:27.120 the way you said it. 1:40:27.280 --> 1:40:33.040 Okay, After you cut the Peter Gabriel album, the one 1:40:33.120 --> 1:40:36.600 with Salisbury Hill, et cetera, do you then go on 1:40:36.680 --> 1:40:38.439 the road with Peter or then go on the road 1:40:38.520 --> 1:40:39.000 with Frip. 1:40:40.160 --> 1:40:43.200 Both. Peter took that album on the road and Robert 1:40:43.920 --> 1:40:46.040 was one of the two guitar players Steve Hunter was 1:40:46.080 --> 1:40:49.720 the other and Robert, in his inimitable way, he was 1:40:49.840 --> 1:40:52.040 in the in the wings. He didn't want to be 1:40:52.120 --> 1:40:55.280 seen and he didn't want Peter to introduce him as 1:40:55.360 --> 1:40:59.040 Robert Fripp. Dusty Rhodes on guitar was what Peter would 1:40:59.040 --> 1:41:01.240 say every night, and the whole audience knew that it 1:41:01.360 --> 1:41:04.400 was Robert and they were looking in the wings anyway. Yeah, 1:41:04.439 --> 1:41:08.080 so we did a wonderful tour, not an ideal tour. 1:41:08.160 --> 1:41:11.000 There was a problem with the sound that the band 1:41:11.160 --> 1:41:13.920 was just too loud on stage and there was no 1:41:14.040 --> 1:41:16.360 way the sound engineer could get us to turn down. 1:41:17.200 --> 1:41:19.880 I say us, but frankly, it wasn't me. It was 1:41:20.800 --> 1:41:23.679 the guitars and drums. It was too loud for the venues. 1:41:24.720 --> 1:41:27.000 So it was less than an ideal tour. But Peter 1:41:27.160 --> 1:41:31.599 was fantastic, and you know, he pretty quickly went into 1:41:31.960 --> 1:41:35.040 starting thinking about the next album and the next tour, 1:41:35.160 --> 1:41:37.800 and I was one hundred percent in for everything he's 1:41:37.840 --> 1:41:38.479 done since then. 1:41:39.479 --> 1:41:41.599 Well, I guess my question is, you know a lot 1:41:41.640 --> 1:41:45.799 of these are not traditional bands, and you make a record, 1:41:46.320 --> 1:41:50.160 you go on the road, and then you got nothing booked. 1:41:50.640 --> 1:41:53.160 I mean, I know somebody played on Elton's you Know 1:41:53.360 --> 1:41:55.640 Final tour. As soon as that tour ended, he was 1:41:55.680 --> 1:42:00.519 out with somebody else. Okay, so once she played that 1:42:00.720 --> 1:42:04.640 first album, the first tour has just been endless. Or 1:42:04.800 --> 1:42:07.040 you ever said, where's my next gig? 1:42:08.520 --> 1:42:12.720 Well, freelance anything. We all say when's my next gig? 1:42:12.920 --> 1:42:15.360 Where is it? It happens to us all at any 1:42:16.160 --> 1:42:19.920 stage of success, unless you're well, I think everybody, there's 1:42:20.000 --> 1:42:23.000 times when you don't have enough gigs. This is why 1:42:23.080 --> 1:42:25.600 my brother taught me, take all the gigs. You're going 1:42:25.680 --> 1:42:27.920 to need them. One day, you're gonna want them. I 1:42:28.000 --> 1:42:30.720 think I don't remember exactly what happened the year that 1:42:30.800 --> 1:42:33.880 Peter Gabriel's first tour ended, and I knew I wanted 1:42:33.920 --> 1:42:36.000 to do more of that, but I was able to 1:42:36.120 --> 1:42:39.200 do some stuff, and I think maybe it took me 1:42:39.280 --> 1:42:41.840 a decade or two to realize that it would be 1:42:41.880 --> 1:42:44.600 good to have my own music coming out so that 1:42:44.680 --> 1:42:47.120 I could form my own band and in a small way, 1:42:47.400 --> 1:42:50.599 to something to fill in the times between the big tours. 1:42:50.760 --> 1:42:53.360 And that's what we have all learned that I was 1:42:53.400 --> 1:42:55.840 slow to figure that out, and I've done that ever since. 1:42:55.880 --> 1:42:58.439 So eleven brothers the jazz band with my brother. We 1:42:58.520 --> 1:43:00.799 can book that on short notice and go do some shows. 1:43:01.120 --> 1:43:05.559 Stickman can group book at rock clubs moderately, short notice, 1:43:05.560 --> 1:43:08.600 maybe six months eight months out. Who're a band like 1:43:08.680 --> 1:43:10.360 King Crimson needs to be over a year out. 1:43:11.760 --> 1:43:15.920 Okay, do you have a manager or do you do 1:43:16.080 --> 1:43:16.959 this all yourself? 1:43:18.920 --> 1:43:20.920 I don't have a manager, and I don't really do 1:43:20.960 --> 1:43:25.120 it myself. I get these calls I'm laughing. Just the 1:43:25.479 --> 1:43:27.160 idea of having a manager, Yeah, that would be a 1:43:27.200 --> 1:43:29.560 good idea, But I'm not that kind of player. I 1:43:29.760 --> 1:43:33.400 just and myself, and people regularly find me and ask 1:43:33.520 --> 1:43:36.320 me to do play on their records and record from 1:43:36.360 --> 1:43:38.519 my home studio where I'm talking to you from, and 1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:43.120 that's really great. I missed it in the early two 1:43:43.160 --> 1:43:46.000 thousands when I started doing that and less and less 1:43:46.000 --> 1:43:49.280 studio playing in person in the studio. I was unhappy 1:43:49.280 --> 1:43:51.160 about it, of course, because I missed the experience of 1:43:51.200 --> 1:43:53.720 all being together in the studio. But now that it's 1:43:54.120 --> 1:43:57.120 become ninety percent more than ninety percent of the sessions 1:43:57.160 --> 1:44:00.120 everybody does, I've kind of learned tricks and ways to 1:44:00.160 --> 1:44:02.640 deal with it and get good music out of it. 1:44:03.000 --> 1:44:04.840 And I really enjoy that. When I'm home, I get 1:44:04.880 --> 1:44:08.080 to do that. Similarly, if I play on someone's album, 1:44:08.160 --> 1:44:10.120 I play on a lot of albums, and if they 1:44:10.160 --> 1:44:12.960 ask me to tour with them, if the music is 1:44:13.080 --> 1:44:16.200 right and if I'm free, then then I can do 1:44:16.360 --> 1:44:17.840 that and be glad that I'm free to do that. 1:44:19.360 --> 1:44:21.479 Okay, let's say you're going on the road with not 1:44:21.640 --> 1:44:25.320 one of your traditional acts. How do you decide what 1:44:25.479 --> 1:44:26.000 to charge? 1:44:27.520 --> 1:44:32.240 Oh, I'm terrible at that. Ooh, I don't know what 1:44:32.400 --> 1:44:35.040 to say about that. It's not something I do if 1:44:35.439 --> 1:44:38.200 it's not something I'm good at and not something I 1:44:38.320 --> 1:44:40.519 want to deal with. So I deal with it because 1:44:40.560 --> 1:44:43.120 I have to. Sometimes we ask to be paid what 1:44:43.240 --> 1:44:46.719 the other guys are getting. There's that trick, and it's 1:44:47.080 --> 1:44:50.519 kind of silly that amongst the musicians who are backing 1:44:50.600 --> 1:44:52.800 someone up, it's pretty rare that we even discuss it. 1:44:53.360 --> 1:44:54.920 It ought to be the first thing we talk about. 1:44:55.000 --> 1:44:58.759 But I'm guessing, as you can probably tell from listening 1:44:58.800 --> 1:45:01.960 to me talk that this about because most of us, 1:45:02.240 --> 1:45:04.519 like me, went into it for the music and they 1:45:04.640 --> 1:45:06.640 just kind of shy away from the business side of it. 1:45:07.840 --> 1:45:11.400 Okay, Back in the earlier days after you work with 1:45:11.600 --> 1:45:14.679 Peter Gabriel and you still have holes in your system. 1:45:14.760 --> 1:45:16.599 Your rep is not as big as it is now. 1:45:17.439 --> 1:45:21.600 To what degree did you network and try to find opportunities? 1:45:21.960 --> 1:45:23.840 And to what degree did you sit there and wait 1:45:23.920 --> 1:45:24.800 for the phone to ring. 1:45:25.880 --> 1:45:29.920 I never networked. I sit there and I don't sit 1:45:30.000 --> 1:45:31.680 there and wait for the phone to ring. I work 1:45:31.720 --> 1:45:34.800 on my solo albums and I and I call guys 1:45:34.840 --> 1:45:36.720 and ask them to jam. And you know, I do 1:45:37.000 --> 1:45:39.720 the other kind of music that we all do, but 1:45:40.120 --> 1:45:43.519 I do not. I don't know how to what would 1:45:43.520 --> 1:45:45.160 you call how to fish for work? I just don't 1:45:45.160 --> 1:45:47.880 know how to do that. And by the way, and 1:45:47.960 --> 1:45:50.840 by the way, at every you're talk to me about 1:45:50.880 --> 1:45:53.439 me like I'm extremely busy, and I am. As we 1:45:53.520 --> 1:45:56.439 talked today, I have a huge amount of touring coming up, 1:45:57.320 --> 1:46:00.640 but then actually have a little something in January and 1:46:00.720 --> 1:46:03.400 then I might I don't know. It could be months 1:46:03.720 --> 1:46:06.960 or even six months before I get anything good, in 1:46:07.040 --> 1:46:09.400 which case I'll finish the second another album. 1:46:10.680 --> 1:46:13.800 So let's say, I mean I know how to contact you. 1:46:14.000 --> 1:46:17.600 Most people do not. But assuming they can get to you, 1:46:18.280 --> 1:46:19.960 will you basically take any gig? 1:46:21.080 --> 1:46:22.880 No, not at all. I want to hear the music. 1:46:23.400 --> 1:46:27.320 It's become easy from the internet used to be more complicated. 1:46:27.400 --> 1:46:30.720 But what was the It wasn't Facebook. There was a 1:46:32.360 --> 1:46:36.360 MySpace that was it where they could play me the 1:46:36.439 --> 1:46:38.519 demo and everybody could find me. That was kind of cool. 1:46:38.560 --> 1:46:41.439 I don't know why it went away, but yeah, it's 1:46:41.520 --> 1:46:43.560 not only that it wants to be good music, but 1:46:43.640 --> 1:46:46.719 I want to hear that I have something to offer 1:46:46.840 --> 1:46:50.920 for that music. I'll take an extreme example. Let's say 1:46:50.960 --> 1:46:54.680 it's disco. If you today, Bob, you send me a 1:46:54.720 --> 1:46:58.120 disco track, and maybe I could technically do it, and 1:46:58.160 --> 1:47:01.280 maybe it's a really good disco track, but I have 1:47:01.520 --> 1:47:04.760 you know, the demo bass part would be fine, better 1:47:04.840 --> 1:47:06.080 than what I could do, or as good as what 1:47:06.120 --> 1:47:08.040 I could do. So I have nothing to offer to 1:47:08.160 --> 1:47:10.560 that track. So I would say with respect, I was 1:47:10.640 --> 1:47:16.280 saying sorry, not for me. And and a guy comes 1:47:16.320 --> 1:47:19.960 to mind, what's his name, really good h Nick di Virgilio, 1:47:20.160 --> 1:47:23.880 very excellent singer and drummer. And sometimes I play on 1:47:23.960 --> 1:47:28.080 his records progressive rock, wonderful stuff and one once in 1:47:28.120 --> 1:47:29.800 a while, I mean, he'll have me play on a track. 1:47:30.000 --> 1:47:31.680 And a couple of years ago he sent me one 1:47:31.840 --> 1:47:35.040 where he had played the bass, and I listened. Usually 1:47:35.080 --> 1:47:37.920 I only give one listen to the bass part that's there, 1:47:37.960 --> 1:47:39.479 and then I want to hear it without it. But 1:47:39.560 --> 1:47:41.840 I kept listening to it, and the bass part was great. 1:47:42.720 --> 1:47:44.360 He's a friend that I've worked with him a lot. 1:47:44.400 --> 1:47:46.720 But I had I had a writer him. I said, I, 1:47:47.240 --> 1:47:49.479 All the best I could do is do exactly what 1:47:49.640 --> 1:47:52.080 you did. Did. I couldn't even improve on the sound. 1:47:52.439 --> 1:47:55.479 So let's uh, you know, right on right on that 1:47:55.600 --> 1:47:57.519 track that the bass player said, you got it, you 1:47:57.640 --> 1:47:58.360 did it really well. 1:48:00.200 --> 1:48:02.120 So how'd you end up working with Paul Simon? 1:48:04.080 --> 1:48:08.040 I think because of the great engineer and producer Phil Ramone. 1:48:08.120 --> 1:48:10.920 He had used me in the same rhythm section on 1:48:11.040 --> 1:48:14.320 a number of sessions, and because he was doing Paul. 1:48:15.360 --> 1:48:17.360 My memory is not perfect of this, but I'm guessing 1:48:17.400 --> 1:48:20.519 I certainly didn't know Paul himself, and Phil was the producer, 1:48:20.600 --> 1:48:22.240 So it was Phil who brought in Steve Gadd and 1:48:22.320 --> 1:48:26.400 myself Richard t on piano, Eric Gale on guitar. We 1:48:26.520 --> 1:48:28.240 were sort of a rhythm section that had done a 1:48:28.280 --> 1:48:32.040 lot of records together, and the experience of working with Paul, 1:48:32.120 --> 1:48:35.040 of course was super special and remained that way for 1:48:35.160 --> 1:48:37.840 the few years that I worked with him, both live 1:48:38.120 --> 1:48:38.920 and in the studio. 1:48:40.600 --> 1:48:42.400 So what was it like being in the movie One 1:48:42.439 --> 1:48:45.040 Trick Pony? That was? 1:48:45.720 --> 1:48:47.840 That was not thrilling to me. I didn't I didn't 1:48:47.840 --> 1:48:49.519 really want to be an actor, but there I was 1:48:49.680 --> 1:48:51.559 the bass player in the band, in the real band, 1:48:51.640 --> 1:48:54.120 and trying to play the part of being the bass 1:48:54.160 --> 1:48:58.680 player in the pretend band. Yeah, it was. I only 1:48:58.720 --> 1:49:00.519 had a few lines, so it wasn't saying the lines. 1:49:00.560 --> 1:49:03.360 It was a lot of hanging around in Cleveland and 1:49:03.479 --> 1:49:05.960 having makeup put on and taken off and put on 1:49:06.080 --> 1:49:08.880 again and taken off to be to look like a 1:49:09.000 --> 1:49:11.840 band in a club, which is sort of what I 1:49:11.960 --> 1:49:14.080 look like to begin with. And I couldn't even use 1:49:14.160 --> 1:49:17.800 my name because, uh, for some reason, Paul had called 1:49:17.840 --> 1:49:21.479 himself Jonah Levin. That was the name of the lead character, Paul, 1:49:22.040 --> 1:49:24.320 and so I couldn't be Tony Levin. That would be confusing, 1:49:24.439 --> 1:49:28.240 even though we're only talking script because nobody says, hey, Jonah, 1:49:28.280 --> 1:49:31.320 how you doing, It's not not necessarily in the dialogue. 1:49:31.400 --> 1:49:34.920 So my name I got a big kick. My name 1:49:35.040 --> 1:49:37.320 was John de Bautista, John the Baptist. 1:49:38.800 --> 1:49:41.080 Okay, there's a scene in that movie. You were driving 1:49:41.160 --> 1:49:44.719 in the van, you're playing dead rock stars. I remember 1:49:44.800 --> 1:49:46.800 seeing that movie when it came out and said, oh, 1:49:47.000 --> 1:49:49.040 I know who's alive and dead? How come they don't know? 1:49:49.720 --> 1:49:49.920 Now? 1:49:50.560 --> 1:49:53.360 I played that in mind as that I can't you know, remember, 1:49:53.600 --> 1:49:55.519 can you tell me anything about that scene? 1:49:56.000 --> 1:50:00.000 Yes, Paul had written it with his sense of humor 1:50:00.280 --> 1:50:02.920 and irony. You know Paul, what Paul's like as a writer. 1:50:03.520 --> 1:50:07.479 And the guys in the band could learn it. But 1:50:08.040 --> 1:50:10.400 but they didn't know what they were talking about because 1:50:10.479 --> 1:50:13.280 Richard T and Eric Gale and Steve Gad they didn't 1:50:13.280 --> 1:50:16.640 know any of those bands. They don't listen to. I 1:50:16.680 --> 1:50:18.280 don't know who it was at Fleetwood Mac now it 1:50:18.400 --> 1:50:25.000 was yeah, the plane going down? It was Plenty. Yeah, yeah, 1:50:25.040 --> 1:50:28.000 they didn't They just didn't know. So they're reading that 1:50:28.640 --> 1:50:32.320 and the director who didn't realize that, Bob Young, very 1:50:32.360 --> 1:50:34.920 good director, who was in the band with us somehow. 1:50:35.040 --> 1:50:37.080 So okay, let's do it again, and this time you 1:50:37.160 --> 1:50:40.759 guys just ad lib, just make up names of bands 1:50:40.800 --> 1:50:44.559 that died. We couldn't do it. These are not actors 1:50:44.600 --> 1:50:46.639 and these are not guys a verse in the history 1:50:46.640 --> 1:50:52.519 of rock and roll. So yeah, it was awkward. Well 1:50:52.520 --> 1:50:54.400 you told me, Just tell you one more thing. There 1:50:54.520 --> 1:50:58.360 was for some reason, there was a thing about Tim Harden, 1:50:59.200 --> 1:51:03.200 Uh a joke. I think the scene ended with somebody 1:51:03.240 --> 1:51:08.200 saying Tim Harden and someone else saying scripted saying, oh, 1:51:08.280 --> 1:51:10.120 he's not dead, he just hasn't had a record out 1:51:10.160 --> 1:51:12.960 in a while or something like that, and the lawyers 1:51:13.360 --> 1:51:16.559 later said, you got to reshoot that scene. And then 1:51:16.680 --> 1:51:20.840 Tim Harden died, right, Yeah, so there was that about 1:51:20.840 --> 1:51:21.280 that scene. 1:51:22.280 --> 1:51:25.760 Okay, now you talk about some legendary people. You worked with, 1:51:25.960 --> 1:51:28.519 John Lennon, Peter Gabriel. What was it like working in 1:51:28.600 --> 1:51:30.640 the studio with Paul Simon. 1:51:32.280 --> 1:51:35.360 Terrific I did a lot over a long period of time, 1:51:35.840 --> 1:51:40.599 and Paul would well, of course, the songs are so great, 1:51:40.680 --> 1:51:44.960 they're really special. But he his process seemed to be 1:51:46.120 --> 1:51:48.519 an internal one and that he was going to search 1:51:48.840 --> 1:51:51.599 for the right field for that piece until it was right, 1:51:51.680 --> 1:51:54.320 and until it was right, it just wasn't going to 1:51:55.040 --> 1:51:56.680 He wasn't going to be happy, it wasn't going to work. 1:51:56.720 --> 1:51:58.360 It could take a month or it could take an hour. 1:51:58.800 --> 1:52:02.160 So typically he would play the piece. Sometimes it had 1:52:02.200 --> 1:52:04.560 all the lyrics, but if not, he would just hum it, 1:52:05.000 --> 1:52:07.040 and he would go over to Richard t the great, 1:52:07.160 --> 1:52:09.760 great keyboard player, usually on the Fender Roads, always on 1:52:09.840 --> 1:52:13.360 the Fender Roads, and play it as a duo until 1:52:13.360 --> 1:52:17.400 he was happy with Richard's part, which took about thirty seconds, 1:52:17.479 --> 1:52:20.240 because Richard always played great stuff, and then Paul would 1:52:20.240 --> 1:52:22.360 come over to me, or to Steve Gadd the drummer, 1:52:23.560 --> 1:52:26.280 maybe to Eric the guitar player, but usually Eric could 1:52:26.360 --> 1:52:29.360 kind of cop what Paul was doing on guitar, and 1:52:30.560 --> 1:52:33.839 Paul would come over to me and sing the melody, 1:52:33.920 --> 1:52:36.840 but he would also kind of hum or sing imply 1:52:37.040 --> 1:52:39.760 a bass part. And it was fascinating to me that 1:52:39.840 --> 1:52:44.000 it was a very melodic not surprising there, and more 1:52:44.120 --> 1:52:46.880 melodic than I would normally play. And I would start 1:52:46.920 --> 1:52:50.160 to play something like what he's doing, but also I'm 1:52:50.240 --> 1:52:52.240 the bass player and I need to ground it, and 1:52:52.640 --> 1:52:55.559 so the end product would be something. Pretty quickly we'd 1:52:55.560 --> 1:52:58.280 find something we're both happy with that's more melodic than 1:52:58.320 --> 1:53:02.280 I generally play. After a while playing with Paul, I 1:53:02.400 --> 1:53:05.560 became a more melodic player. I became more likely to 1:53:05.680 --> 1:53:07.720 go up high and play a chord way up high 1:53:08.360 --> 1:53:10.520 than I was before that. So I was very influenced 1:53:10.560 --> 1:53:13.120 by that experience, and you can imagine I treasure it 1:53:13.200 --> 1:53:17.080 a lot. But also he let me play the low 1:53:17.160 --> 1:53:19.840 notes and the simple parts. You know. A great example 1:53:19.960 --> 1:53:23.040 is Fifty Ways Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover, an 1:53:23.080 --> 1:53:27.560 amazing song lyrically, even I love the irony and the 1:53:27.840 --> 1:53:30.120 not just the chorus, the famous part, but the first 1:53:30.240 --> 1:53:32.479 verse starts in a wonderful way. But in the beginning 1:53:32.479 --> 1:53:35.919 I'm playing high and playing chords can be a melodic 1:53:36.000 --> 1:53:38.760 bass thing. But then the when the chorus starts, I'm 1:53:38.800 --> 1:53:41.599 just playing quarter notes down low in a gospel kind 1:53:41.640 --> 1:53:45.360 of way, just the way, very very simple, And I 1:53:45.479 --> 1:53:48.240 love the contrast between those two. And it reminds me 1:53:48.320 --> 1:53:50.240 if I hear that, it reminds me how much I 1:53:50.360 --> 1:53:53.840 learned from Paul melodically about what I can do on 1:53:53.960 --> 1:53:55.680 bass to. 1:53:55.800 --> 1:53:58.840 What degree you talk about getting the feel right. But 1:53:58.960 --> 1:54:01.639 when he got in the student, were the songs finished 1:54:02.360 --> 1:54:04.920 and just tweaking them or would he change them in 1:54:04.960 --> 1:54:05.800 the studio. 1:54:06.680 --> 1:54:09.880 Both Sometimes it was finished, done deal, and sometimes he 1:54:09.920 --> 1:54:14.200 had no lyrics. Sometimes I think one song called have 1:54:14.360 --> 1:54:16.840 a Good Time, Maybe it was he said his son 1:54:18.160 --> 1:54:20.200 had just said something that morning to me, and they 1:54:20.240 --> 1:54:22.840 all had a good time, and that was the song 1:54:23.000 --> 1:54:25.360 was going to be about that, and he he I 1:54:25.400 --> 1:54:27.880 don't remember how long we worked on it could be days, 1:54:28.080 --> 1:54:29.880 could be one day, I don't know. But once we 1:54:30.040 --> 1:54:32.280 had the track in a way that made him happy. 1:54:32.600 --> 1:54:34.560 The next morning he came in with the finish lyrics. 1:54:34.600 --> 1:54:36.800 He had written them that night. I happened to come 1:54:36.840 --> 1:54:39.040 in early and I heard him singing a song that 1:54:39.120 --> 1:54:41.560 sounded like it took a year to write. So that's 1:54:41.600 --> 1:54:44.040 what I meant about, when things were right for him, 1:54:44.120 --> 1:54:46.280 that he could he could complete the song. 1:54:48.160 --> 1:54:51.600 So let's say you're working with him for months once again, 1:54:52.120 --> 1:54:55.200 how do you decide to charge? You make it a union? Raid? 1:54:55.320 --> 1:54:57.720 Do they make you an offer beforehand? How does that 1:54:57.800 --> 1:54:58.240 even work? 1:54:58.960 --> 1:55:01.360 I think back in those first of all, I don't 1:55:02.080 --> 1:55:04.280 I'm squeamish about all that. I don't pay much attention 1:55:04.400 --> 1:55:06.600 to it. But back in those days, it was called 1:55:06.600 --> 1:55:09.240 the there was a union scale. Maybe some of the 1:55:09.320 --> 1:55:12.080 other guys made what's called double scale on that session. 1:55:12.520 --> 1:55:14.880 I don't really know, but I was getting paid by 1:55:14.920 --> 1:55:20.120 the hour, not tremendous pay, not terrible pay. I wasn't 1:55:20.160 --> 1:55:23.560 really thinking about it then, and I don't remember. I'm 1:55:23.600 --> 1:55:26.960 gonna guess I know. When I started in New York, 1:55:27.000 --> 1:55:29.720 a double sorry a session, a three hour record session 1:55:29.760 --> 1:55:32.640 paid sixty dollars or something like that. So maybe it 1:55:32.680 --> 1:55:34.640 went up to one hundred and eighty dollars or something 1:55:34.720 --> 1:55:37.080 like that, but for a three hour session, and those 1:55:37.120 --> 1:55:38.440 would have been six hour sessions. 1:55:39.560 --> 1:55:44.080 Now you're literally classically trained. A lot of rock bass 1:55:44.360 --> 1:55:50.240 go the and then you have Paul McCartney, who was 1:55:50.360 --> 1:55:54.720 famous for Melody on the base, certainly untrained. What is 1:55:54.800 --> 1:55:56.800 your view on McCartney's base play. 1:55:57.480 --> 1:56:00.880 Yeah, fantastic, fantastic stuff that influenced all of us, but 1:56:01.040 --> 1:56:03.839 me included for sure. Even though you know the training, 1:56:04.680 --> 1:56:07.480 it really has nothing to do with it. When I 1:56:07.520 --> 1:56:09.880 came to I'll tell you a little thing about that, 1:56:10.080 --> 1:56:12.680 the training. I was a classical musician. So when I 1:56:12.720 --> 1:56:15.120 came to New York and started doing sessions, when there 1:56:15.240 --> 1:56:17.280 was a chart and an arranger who would write out 1:56:17.360 --> 1:56:20.040 every note to play, I would play every note the 1:56:20.120 --> 1:56:22.400 way he wrote it, the way a classical player would. 1:56:22.760 --> 1:56:25.440 Even when I I'm not proud of this, but if 1:56:25.480 --> 1:56:27.720 I saw and just knew that it was not the 1:56:27.840 --> 1:56:30.560 note that was wanted. I would still play it because 1:56:30.560 --> 1:56:33.760 that's what classic I'm not. It's silly, but that's what 1:56:33.840 --> 1:56:37.760 classical players do. Literally, if a fly poops on the page, 1:56:37.800 --> 1:56:39.640 you're going to play that note. And you just pointed 1:56:39.680 --> 1:56:42.280 the page, all it's there. Okay. So I did that 1:56:42.400 --> 1:56:45.680 for a minute and New York minute. I did that 1:56:45.800 --> 1:56:48.360 for I don't know X number of months before I 1:56:48.480 --> 1:56:51.280 realized that what I want to do is figure out 1:56:51.320 --> 1:56:54.560 what the arranger wants and play that in spite of 1:56:54.640 --> 1:56:58.760 what he wrote. I actually don't remember what your question was, 1:56:58.840 --> 1:57:03.320 but it started me off on thing about reading Bob McCartney. Yeah, okay, 1:57:03.400 --> 1:57:08.320 So I didn't really in my early session years have 1:57:08.520 --> 1:57:10.680 a style of playing. I was doing what I thought 1:57:10.800 --> 1:57:15.560 was wanted on that on those on that particular record. However, 1:57:15.680 --> 1:57:18.480 I was influenced, given the chance to plitt, to make 1:57:18.560 --> 1:57:21.600 up my own part, which I often wasn't. I was 1:57:21.680 --> 1:57:23.920 influenced by Paul Mark McCartney to do a great deal 1:57:24.080 --> 1:57:28.919 not only the choice of notes, which are very fantastic, 1:57:29.000 --> 1:57:32.120 you know, beyond description fantastic, but the sound he was playing, 1:57:32.280 --> 1:57:36.080 famously ah Hoffner, which sounded very different than than the 1:57:36.200 --> 1:57:38.680 Fender base that we all were playing on. All the 1:57:38.760 --> 1:57:40.960 records made in New York in those days. Nobody had 1:57:41.000 --> 1:57:43.600 a Hoffner or Gibson, and if you did and walked 1:57:43.640 --> 1:57:47.160 into a session, a normal session, the engineer would never 1:57:47.320 --> 1:57:49.680 use you again. The producer, they wouldn't like the sound 1:57:49.760 --> 1:57:52.840 you had. So I wasn't allowed the latitude of sound 1:57:53.160 --> 1:57:56.280 that Paul really made use of in a great way. 1:57:57.160 --> 1:58:01.120 And I'm also going to add d Murray, the unheralded 1:58:01.440 --> 1:58:05.120 wonderful bass player with Elton John on his early records, 1:58:05.600 --> 1:58:09.480 also played in a wonderfully melodic way, and that influenced 1:58:09.520 --> 1:58:09.840 me a lot. 1:58:17.760 --> 1:58:21.200 Okay, so let's say someone makes contact with you, you're 1:58:21.240 --> 1:58:25.680 out with the bead, you're out with whomever, and you 1:58:25.840 --> 1:58:28.360 can't do it. Who do you tell them to call? 1:58:30.200 --> 1:58:33.120 Very very funny question. That has happened in the last 1:58:33.160 --> 1:58:35.160 couple of days. A few times I've got emails about 1:58:35.520 --> 1:58:38.000 doing a track, because that's I do. Get those emails, 1:58:38.040 --> 1:58:40.840 and I had to say next year I could do it. 1:58:41.640 --> 1:58:44.760 It is not a thing at all in the industry 1:58:44.840 --> 1:58:47.440 where I live that a bass player would be asked 1:58:47.480 --> 1:58:50.600 to recommend another bass player just doesn't happen, so nobody 1:58:50.720 --> 1:58:52.480 they're not if I can't do it, they're not really 1:58:52.520 --> 1:58:54.400 interested in who I like. They're going to get another 1:58:54.400 --> 1:58:57.040 bass player they like, or that the drummer like. That's 1:58:57.080 --> 1:58:58.000 not an even better idea. 1:58:59.520 --> 1:59:06.320 Okay. So traditionally, a session player, a band member gets 1:59:06.400 --> 1:59:09.800 paid by the hour or the gig, other than the 1:59:09.920 --> 1:59:14.000 records you've put out yourself. Do you have royalty interests 1:59:14.200 --> 1:59:15.480 in any of these records? 1:59:16.760 --> 1:59:20.200 Some there's publishing. If you had publishing is big, if 1:59:20.240 --> 1:59:22.440 you had something to do with writing the piece, as 1:59:22.480 --> 1:59:24.160 I do in King Crimson, the bands that I'm a 1:59:24.200 --> 1:59:27.160 remember of, and if you were a band splitting the royalties, 1:59:27.200 --> 1:59:30.160 there's that. Of course that's great. If you're a quote 1:59:30.240 --> 1:59:36.040 session man playing being paid by the hour, then I 1:59:36.120 --> 1:59:38.520 wish I was. I don't wish, but I'm not an 1:59:38.560 --> 1:59:41.680 expert at this. But in general you're just paid by 1:59:41.720 --> 1:59:44.720 the hour. There is no royalty factor. However, in the 1:59:44.800 --> 1:59:47.480 last few years that's changed a bit. There's a big 1:59:47.680 --> 1:59:51.640 fund of money from record labels. I guess that's divided 1:59:51.760 --> 1:59:54.440 up somehow in a complicated way among all the people 1:59:54.480 --> 1:59:56.960 who did all the sessions, and so there is that payment. 1:59:57.840 --> 2:00:01.360 And then there's another thing that's different. In Europe, there's 2:00:01.440 --> 2:00:04.480 an organization that keeps careful track. I don't know that 2:00:04.560 --> 2:00:06.520 there's one in the US. If there is, I guess 2:00:06.560 --> 2:00:08.680 I ought to find it keeps careful track of who 2:00:08.720 --> 2:00:11.600 played on all records and gives them some royalties from it. 2:00:11.880 --> 2:00:16.520 So European recordings, yes, there's some extra payments. I don't 2:00:16.560 --> 2:00:19.200 know anything about how that works or what the percent is. 2:00:20.000 --> 2:00:23.640 Forgetting the money that you've put away. Are the royalty 2:00:23.800 --> 2:00:29.040 interests you have over your fifty odd your career significant 2:00:29.760 --> 2:00:32.360 such that you could live on them, or they can 2:00:32.480 --> 2:00:33.760 basically pay for dinner. 2:00:37.080 --> 2:00:39.800 Yeah, somewhere in between, but a little closer to the 2:00:39.880 --> 2:00:43.440 dinner thing. And caveat is that I haven't counted it 2:00:43.520 --> 2:00:46.400 up and done that math. I've been too busy playing. 2:00:47.160 --> 2:00:49.360 And I like the joke, but with a little bit 2:00:49.440 --> 2:00:52.200 of serious, a ring of truth to it that we 2:00:52.440 --> 2:00:55.680 musicians are very smart in that we've chosen a career 2:00:55.760 --> 2:00:59.480 where we have to keep working until they pull the 2:00:59.520 --> 2:01:03.880 instrument out of our our frozen hands and we can't 2:01:03.880 --> 2:01:06.520 play anymore. And it was a good decision for I think. 2:01:06.440 --> 2:01:10.000 For all of us, and how many times, you've been married. 2:01:11.280 --> 2:01:11.600 Twice? 2:01:13.080 --> 2:01:14.840 And how old were you when we got married the 2:01:14.880 --> 2:01:15.360 first time? 2:01:19.480 --> 2:01:21.760 First of all, I'm baffled why you or anybody would 2:01:21.760 --> 2:01:26.720 want to know this. I can tell you the important one, 2:01:26.880 --> 2:01:28.560 The now one has been eighteen years. 2:01:29.160 --> 2:01:31.160 Okay. Then let me ask you. Let me ask a 2:01:31.160 --> 2:01:33.480 couple of questions a different way. How long were you 2:01:33.600 --> 2:01:34.600 married the first time? 2:01:36.320 --> 2:01:41.120 First? More important, I'm gonna trump you with it. The 2:01:41.200 --> 2:01:43.520 current one is twenty eight years, nine eighteen years, and 2:01:43.640 --> 2:01:45.600 that's the more important one. So I was married for 2:01:45.680 --> 2:01:51.680 ten years, from nineteen sixty six to seventy six. 2:01:52.760 --> 2:01:56.400 Okay, so we were relatively young when you first got married. 2:01:57.040 --> 2:02:00.600 Why didn't those numbers weren't correct? By the way, it 2:02:00.760 --> 2:02:03.960 wasn't sixty six, it was seventy nineteen seventy in nineteen eighty. 2:02:04.400 --> 2:02:08.080 Okay, Why did you choose to get married at that time? 2:02:10.440 --> 2:02:13.560 I'm baffled by that question. I have no worthwhile. 2:02:13.600 --> 2:02:16.360 Well something, you know the reason I'm asking this. And 2:02:16.520 --> 2:02:21.320 there's a human you're a road musician. I remember Metallica. 2:02:21.360 --> 2:02:23.120 We're all married. They went on the road that came on, 2:02:23.280 --> 2:02:26.280 they all got divorces. I mean, you know, it's not 2:02:26.640 --> 2:02:29.600 easy to sustain a relationship when you're a road musician. 2:02:29.640 --> 2:02:31.880 I've talked to certain people. They say, oh, thank god 2:02:31.960 --> 2:02:33.880 he goes on the road, he drives me nuts when 2:02:33.880 --> 2:02:36.600 he's home. It all works. So I guess I'm asking. 2:02:36.760 --> 2:02:41.040 Sometimes people want to get married because the musician wants 2:02:41.080 --> 2:02:45.480 an anchor, or the person at home says, hey, you know, 2:02:45.640 --> 2:02:49.600 I want a commitment. Other times, irrelevant of how the 2:02:50.360 --> 2:02:53.400 relationship started, the fact that one person's on the road 2:02:53.480 --> 2:02:56.240 one person is not ends the relationship. 2:02:56.840 --> 2:03:02.400 Good point, and yeah, now I understand the the issue 2:03:02.440 --> 2:03:04.880 behind the question. It's a very good question. I think 2:03:04.920 --> 2:03:07.320 how many years it last, it doesn't matter. It was 2:03:07.400 --> 2:03:10.520 always difficult, always has stress on a relationship to have 2:03:10.640 --> 2:03:14.120 one person gone all the time. And there's also in 2:03:14.240 --> 2:03:17.320 the old days, in my case, when tours were longer, 2:03:17.400 --> 2:03:19.880 when they were eight weeks, ten weeks, twelve weeks, and 2:03:19.960 --> 2:03:22.720 then two weeks at home, and then more they're not 2:03:23.000 --> 2:03:25.600 quite that long usually anymore. This upcoming one is, but 2:03:26.760 --> 2:03:30.160 that exacerbates that factor. Then you're really not a person 2:03:30.240 --> 2:03:33.560 at home, and then when you come home there's a 2:03:33.680 --> 2:03:36.480 period of adjustment. It's just a different world. No matter 2:03:36.560 --> 2:03:40.280 how ground did a person you are. Animals and kids 2:03:40.320 --> 2:03:41.760 help a lot because they don't care that you are 2:03:41.800 --> 2:03:43.960 on the road. But no matter how grounded you are, 2:03:44.400 --> 2:03:47.440 you've had a life where you or your band is 2:03:47.520 --> 2:03:51.280 the center of attention of everybody. You meet, every worker, 2:03:51.400 --> 2:03:54.200 every day, every not just fans, but people working us. 2:03:54.480 --> 2:03:58.120 It's all about you, and interviews and all that all 2:03:58.120 --> 2:04:01.160 about you. And then you go home and it's you know, literally, 2:04:01.640 --> 2:04:03.280 people walk up to you on the street and you 2:04:03.440 --> 2:04:05.960 start to reach for a pen to sign our autographs 2:04:06.000 --> 2:04:09.400 and you're just a home. You're nobody, thank goodness. So 2:04:09.520 --> 2:04:13.120 there's that, and that add that to a relationship. It is, 2:04:13.160 --> 2:04:15.520 of course to strain, and it was harder in the 2:04:15.880 --> 2:04:18.600 even harder in the old days when we didn't have 2:04:18.680 --> 2:04:21.400 cell phones, when you had to make phone calls from 2:04:21.720 --> 2:04:25.720 hotel rooms, which were very notoriously expensive, really expensive one 2:04:25.760 --> 2:04:28.800 hundred dollars phone calls, and if you started to have 2:04:28.920 --> 2:04:30.880 some issues and want to have a fight or a 2:04:30.960 --> 2:04:33.120 long talk, it was it was more than you could 2:04:33.120 --> 2:04:35.960 afford from being out. So that in that one case, 2:04:36.000 --> 2:04:37.960 there's a couple ways that being on the road got 2:04:38.000 --> 2:04:40.680 a lot easier. The other's GPS because we used to 2:04:40.720 --> 2:04:43.560 be lost a lot of time and no phone to 2:04:44.400 --> 2:04:47.920 be able to call and ask directions. Okay, so yeah, 2:04:48.040 --> 2:04:50.640 I got more mature. We all got more mature as 2:04:50.640 --> 2:04:53.720 we got older, and hopefully and in my case for sure, 2:04:54.200 --> 2:04:57.320 found a partner who understand what understands from the beginning, 2:04:57.400 --> 2:04:59.680 what's involved with somebody who's not around all the time, 2:05:00.320 --> 2:05:05.880 and hopefully found ways to connect emotionally and meaningfully while 2:05:05.920 --> 2:05:09.640 you're apart. That's a big part of it. But at 2:05:09.640 --> 2:05:11.080 the end, I'm going to just say that I'm no 2:05:11.200 --> 2:05:13.320 expert at this. I'm just saying what little comes to 2:05:13.400 --> 2:05:14.960 mind in my case about it. 2:05:15.920 --> 2:05:18.600 Okay, you've been on the road and been married, not 2:05:18.840 --> 2:05:23.600 been married. You know, traditionally people took advantage of the 2:05:23.680 --> 2:05:26.640 so called peroks of the road, certainly pre cell phone 2:05:26.720 --> 2:05:31.040 camera and you know, I've been out there myself. I've seen, 2:05:31.920 --> 2:05:34.640 you know, people who were married and they're taking advantage. 2:05:34.680 --> 2:05:36.680 I'm not going to say anything code of the road, 2:05:36.760 --> 2:05:40.200 so to speak. Was this a lifestyle the people you 2:05:40.280 --> 2:05:44.080 went out with partook of if that's the word or 2:05:44.200 --> 2:05:46.360 that you partake or just the acts you were out with, 2:05:46.520 --> 2:05:47.560 that just wasn't a thing. 2:05:48.640 --> 2:05:50.880 No, never toured with that kind of act. I know 2:05:51.000 --> 2:05:53.080 that they're out there, and that kind of rock and 2:05:53.200 --> 2:05:57.760 roll lifestyle is out there, and I've bumped into it 2:05:57.920 --> 2:06:00.120 sometimes and seen other bands that are like that. The 2:06:00.560 --> 2:06:02.800 never anything like that in the band's I tour with. 2:06:03.920 --> 2:06:04.960 And do you have any children? 2:06:05.560 --> 2:06:08.320 Yes, My wonderful daughter is thirty nine now living in 2:06:08.680 --> 2:06:11.920 Los Angeles and writes and directs horror movies. 2:06:13.520 --> 2:06:16.760 And if she off the payroll, I don't know what that. 2:06:16.880 --> 2:06:18.120 Means, off the payroll. 2:06:18.200 --> 2:06:19.200 Do you support her? 2:06:19.600 --> 2:06:24.240 No? No, I don't. Oh that's funny. She's thirty nine. 2:06:24.320 --> 2:06:27.160 I think, Hey, listen, I know people in their seventies. 2:06:27.280 --> 2:06:32.880 Okay, she'll support a valid question. Yep. I'm looking forward 2:06:32.920 --> 2:06:35.520 to only a few years from now when I'm known 2:06:35.680 --> 2:06:37.360 as the guy who's her father. 2:06:39.080 --> 2:06:42.680 Let's hope. So you start working with Peter Gabriel in 2:06:42.760 --> 2:06:45.400 seventy six. The album comes out in seventy seven. The 2:06:45.440 --> 2:06:50.040 first Album's Got a Push, does have Salisbury Hill. Second album, 2:06:50.760 --> 2:06:54.240 Irrelevant of Quality, does not have the same commercial impact. 2:06:54.800 --> 2:06:58.240 Atlantic won't put out the third album That's on Mercury, 2:06:58.320 --> 2:07:02.000 which is really the best of that realogy. Then he 2:07:02.280 --> 2:07:06.240 shifts to Geffen. Has a certain amount of Action has 2:07:06.320 --> 2:07:09.200 a double live album, then all of a sudden, SO 2:07:09.560 --> 2:07:13.840 comes out and it's gigantic, but sledshammer, et cetera. From 2:07:13.960 --> 2:07:17.720 the inside. What did this look like? It was like 2:07:17.800 --> 2:07:20.240 you were in the wilderness. Was it like you were 2:07:20.240 --> 2:07:23.280 in the wilderness and didn't care. Was it like you 2:07:23.360 --> 2:07:25.640 knew it was only a matter of time? What was 2:07:25.680 --> 2:07:25.960 it like? 2:07:27.240 --> 2:07:29.640 I was never good at knowing what's going to be 2:07:29.720 --> 2:07:32.440 a successful record or not, and I don't. Plus I 2:07:32.480 --> 2:07:35.600 don't pay attention to it. Plus it doesn't really matter 2:07:35.760 --> 2:07:37.680 to be the bass player on those records or be 2:07:37.720 --> 2:07:39.880 the bass player on the tour. So it's not that 2:07:40.000 --> 2:07:42.960 it didn't care about it, but I didn't care enough 2:07:43.000 --> 2:07:45.280 about it to be involved in it. I only vaguely 2:07:45.360 --> 2:07:48.200 knew that that stuff was going on. And I'm you know, 2:07:48.280 --> 2:07:49.920 I still get to play on the new material and 2:07:49.920 --> 2:07:52.160 I still get to tour, and that's a win win win. 2:07:54.040 --> 2:07:57.280 Well, let's say that album specifically, although usually the rhythm 2:07:57.400 --> 2:08:01.360 section is early he records, so which then us which 2:08:01.560 --> 2:08:06.440 you know, gigantic. When you're playing on those songs, you say, 2:08:06.520 --> 2:08:08.360 wait a second, this is something special. 2:08:09.480 --> 2:08:14.280 Not the case. No, Peter's Peter's songs almost always had 2:08:14.440 --> 2:08:18.040 or some of the songs had that element of, oh, 2:08:18.120 --> 2:08:20.600 this could be you notice that this could be a 2:08:20.760 --> 2:08:24.960 radio play record, not a hit. I'm not the guy 2:08:25.080 --> 2:08:27.120 to predict that, but oh this is this could be 2:08:27.240 --> 2:08:30.640 very popular, and one way or another, Peter would sabotage 2:08:30.720 --> 2:08:33.000 that part of that song. So he always did that. 2:08:33.120 --> 2:08:36.120 He just has it built into him that that the 2:08:36.200 --> 2:08:38.400 song would get longer and longer, and then eventually that 2:08:38.520 --> 2:08:40.840 first part would be gone, or the second, the core, 2:08:41.200 --> 2:08:43.760 whatever it was, the hook, what you might call the hook. 2:08:45.200 --> 2:08:47.320 Who knows why. I never asked them why, just I 2:08:47.400 --> 2:08:49.400 saw a lot of them come and go, or we 2:08:49.560 --> 2:08:52.120 recorded them, and then they weren't there on the final album. 2:08:52.560 --> 2:08:55.720 And it was an exception when Sledgehammer came out. I thought, 2:08:57.520 --> 2:09:00.120 and I'm not really the expert at the history this, 2:09:00.240 --> 2:09:03.160 but I believe that we had finished the recording of 2:09:03.200 --> 2:09:07.400 the album and Peter, in its quirky way, said let's 2:09:07.440 --> 2:09:11.120 do a song for the next album. And Manukach was 2:09:11.200 --> 2:09:14.240 literally packing up to go back to Paris, and he 2:09:15.160 --> 2:09:17.960 set up again and we played one or two takes 2:09:18.040 --> 2:09:21.680 on what would became Sledgehammer, and I think that wasn't 2:09:21.760 --> 2:09:24.120 meant for the record, and I think the label heard 2:09:24.160 --> 2:09:26.200 it and insisted that he put it on the record. 2:09:26.280 --> 2:09:30.760 So even that one, the Tony Levin opinion, as Peter 2:09:30.840 --> 2:09:34.600 would have sabotaged it in some way. It may had 2:09:34.640 --> 2:09:37.000 a five minute introduction to the hook or something like 2:09:37.080 --> 2:09:38.880 that had he had the chance. But he didn't have 2:09:38.920 --> 2:09:39.280 the chance. 2:09:40.320 --> 2:09:43.800 And in terms of recording Peter's music, to what degree 2:09:44.080 --> 2:09:46.480 is it finished when you show up, or to what 2:09:46.600 --> 2:09:48.600 degrees it worked out in the studio. 2:09:48.600 --> 2:09:52.080 It's a very long process with Peter. I'm used to it. 2:09:52.280 --> 2:09:55.840 It takes a long process and can go on for years. 2:09:55.880 --> 2:09:57.800 You can keep coming back and playing the same songs, 2:09:58.040 --> 2:10:00.840 or it could be done. I don't know there and 2:10:01.000 --> 2:10:04.360 I leave and I don't know is it done this 2:10:04.520 --> 2:10:06.720 record or will I be in the next decade playing it? 2:10:06.800 --> 2:10:08.600 And I just take a pretty deep breath. And that's 2:10:08.600 --> 2:10:11.680 the way it is. And it lies within Peter's sensibility, 2:10:12.280 --> 2:10:14.560 and I'm not the one who's there day to day 2:10:14.640 --> 2:10:15.760 to find out how it's going. 2:10:17.040 --> 2:10:20.200 So in the last thirty years or so, Peter has 2:10:20.320 --> 2:10:23.200 been less active than he was in the previous fifteen 2:10:23.320 --> 2:10:29.400 or twenty. So you have to book a schedule. What 2:10:29.520 --> 2:10:30.839 do you do if Peter calls. 2:10:32.000 --> 2:10:38.280 Yeah, that's an element in my life because without question, 2:10:38.520 --> 2:10:41.920 I want to without question, he's the first priority. I 2:10:41.960 --> 2:10:44.520 want to be available for Peter's stuff. And if he 2:10:44.760 --> 2:10:47.840 just book was the kind of person or act or 2:10:47.920 --> 2:10:49.640 had the kind of management that he decides a way 2:10:49.640 --> 2:10:52.440 ahead of time, life would be easy. In fact, the 2:10:52.520 --> 2:10:55.720 two things are coupled that he's my top priority, even 2:10:55.800 --> 2:10:58.480 over King Crimson, and he's the last one to decide 2:10:58.800 --> 2:11:03.120 decides because these things need if it's an arena tour, 2:11:03.160 --> 2:11:05.000 it needs to be booked way ahead of time, but 2:11:05.160 --> 2:11:07.960 he still decides a little bit on the late side, 2:11:07.960 --> 2:11:10.560 which makes it very hard, especially did when I was 2:11:10.680 --> 2:11:13.640 actively touring with Peter and with King Crimson. In fact, 2:11:13.720 --> 2:11:17.360 when email was invented, the first thing I was early 2:11:17.480 --> 2:11:19.720 to hear about it, well, when it became I don't 2:11:19.720 --> 2:11:22.480 know about invented, but when it became popularly used, and 2:11:22.600 --> 2:11:25.400 I used it to connect the management of King Crimson 2:11:25.440 --> 2:11:27.840 with the management of Peter Gabriel so they could talk 2:11:27.920 --> 2:11:31.000 from different countries about the next where I was going 2:11:31.080 --> 2:11:35.280 to be in October, because otherwise, with phones and time differences, 2:11:35.320 --> 2:11:37.600 it was very hard to work out, so that, Yes, 2:11:37.680 --> 2:11:39.440 that's been an element in my life for a long time, 2:11:39.720 --> 2:11:42.760 and it is now. I haven't heard anything about Peter 2:11:42.960 --> 2:11:45.640 doing any touring next year, and it's too late to 2:11:45.720 --> 2:11:48.960 book the spring or the summer. But when hopes, I 2:11:49.040 --> 2:11:51.600 haven't heard any thing, you think being in the band, 2:11:51.640 --> 2:11:53.720 I would know, but I don't, And like any fan, 2:11:53.840 --> 2:11:56.040 I hope there's stuff and I will hold off as 2:11:56.120 --> 2:11:58.560 long as I can, and then maybe i'll I'll try 2:11:58.640 --> 2:12:00.440 to contact him and say, are you sure you're not 2:12:00.480 --> 2:12:03.320 going to do anything. It's a common Oh, here's Tony 2:12:03.680 --> 2:12:06.000 reaching out to say, next September, I have a thing, 2:12:06.600 --> 2:12:08.960 what do you think might you be doing something? And 2:12:09.120 --> 2:12:12.560 often I don't get a definitive answer, but we work 2:12:12.600 --> 2:12:15.080 it out, and it almost always has worked out that 2:12:15.120 --> 2:12:15.840 I'm on the tours. 2:12:16.840 --> 2:12:20.120 Generally speaking, you know, you work with a lot of people. 2:12:21.040 --> 2:12:23.760 Do they only make contact when they want work or 2:12:23.840 --> 2:12:26.520 do you maintain like regular contact like Peter could years 2:12:26.560 --> 2:12:29.560 go by, we don't hear from them or easy checking 2:12:29.640 --> 2:12:31.680 in or you checking in a regular basis. 2:12:32.240 --> 2:12:35.520 It's different with everybody. Peter's an old friend. We don't 2:12:35.600 --> 2:12:38.600 chat often when we're not working together, but the lines 2:12:38.600 --> 2:12:41.360 are open and we see each other when we can. 2:12:42.200 --> 2:12:45.080 And Robert Fripp's an old friend and I've worked with 2:12:45.160 --> 2:12:46.919 him a long time, and I have an open invitation 2:12:47.080 --> 2:12:49.520 to visit him at his house in England, and I 2:12:49.600 --> 2:12:51.640 think I took him up on that one time, but 2:12:51.920 --> 2:12:54.280 it's a little awkward to have the time to do that, 2:12:55.000 --> 2:12:57.440 so I haven't done it lately, but the good friends. 2:12:57.880 --> 2:13:00.800 So it varies a lot with different people. When I'm 2:13:00.840 --> 2:13:02.800 going to be in La soon rehearsing for a long time, 2:13:02.840 --> 2:13:06.000 and I will indeed have a few breakfasts and dinners 2:13:06.040 --> 2:13:09.840 if I can with some recording artists who I've become 2:13:09.880 --> 2:13:11.040 friends with and who I've worked with. 2:13:12.720 --> 2:13:15.400 And to what degree do you think about legacy. 2:13:17.480 --> 2:13:21.600 I don't think about that. I'm lucky, as if you 2:13:21.720 --> 2:13:23.640 heard me say a few times, I'm so lucky to 2:13:23.680 --> 2:13:25.680 be doing what I'm doing and to be able to 2:13:25.760 --> 2:13:29.600 have done a career of it, and I have visions 2:13:29.640 --> 2:13:31.920 of being able to do it into the future, indefinitely 2:13:32.160 --> 2:13:34.600 crazy visions, and so that's enough for me. I'm lucky 2:13:34.600 --> 2:13:34.920 about that. 2:13:36.000 --> 2:13:39.160 So the world has changed because no music disappears with 2:13:39.280 --> 2:13:43.000 the Internet and streaming services, whereas in the old days. 2:13:43.040 --> 2:13:47.840 You know, old records might disappear. If you're eighty eight 2:13:48.280 --> 2:13:51.920 and everybody else's passed and there's a club and there 2:13:51.920 --> 2:13:54.200 are going to be fifty people there, are you going 2:13:54.280 --> 2:13:55.440 to show up and play. 2:13:57.080 --> 2:13:59.240 When you say everybody has passed him and everyone in 2:13:59.320 --> 2:13:59.640 the band. 2:14:00.800 --> 2:14:03.720 I guess what I'm saying is you are a musician 2:14:03.880 --> 2:14:06.920 to a great degree. Other people are calling for you 2:14:07.040 --> 2:14:09.760 to play in their bands. Some of these you're always 2:14:09.760 --> 2:14:11.320 in the band, like Peter Gabriel, but it's not like 2:14:11.400 --> 2:14:14.480 he's working every year. What I'm trying to say is, 2:14:14.920 --> 2:14:18.040 certainly in the old days when the records were unavailable, 2:14:18.080 --> 2:14:20.839 there's some people say I'm not going to do it anymore. 2:14:21.400 --> 2:14:23.480 There are other people who stayed on as long as 2:14:23.560 --> 2:14:26.920 someone was willing to pay them. They were out there. 2:14:28.720 --> 2:14:31.160 Of the ladder. But it's not correct to say as 2:14:31.160 --> 2:14:33.320 long as someone's willing to pay, as long as there's 2:14:33.320 --> 2:14:36.200 good music to be made. Like all my friends who 2:14:36.440 --> 2:14:40.360 are musicians, with one exception, like all of them, we're 2:14:40.400 --> 2:14:43.560 going to do it. If we're able to bend the 2:14:43.640 --> 2:14:46.360 knees and have to walk to that walk onto stage, 2:14:46.600 --> 2:14:48.040 and the music is good, we're going to do it. 2:14:48.240 --> 2:14:50.760 The one exception is Bill Rufford, my band made in 2:14:50.840 --> 2:14:55.320 King Crimson in the eighties, who not bizarrely because it's 2:14:55.360 --> 2:14:57.600 a normal human thing, but he decided to retire from 2:14:57.640 --> 2:15:01.440 touring and from playing music. And it's totally unusual in 2:15:01.680 --> 2:15:05.360 my genre, in their genre I live in, and among musicians, 2:15:05.400 --> 2:15:07.400 he's the only guy I know who did that or 2:15:07.480 --> 2:15:10.840 would do that, and bless him is his decision to make, 2:15:10.920 --> 2:15:13.480 and it's kind of to people who are a professor, 2:15:13.560 --> 2:15:16.480 it's a normal decision, but us musicians, we musicians tend 2:15:16.560 --> 2:15:19.360 to want to do it until they pull the instrument 2:15:19.440 --> 2:15:21.960 out of our fingers or we can't bend our fingers anymore. 2:15:23.120 --> 2:15:26.240 And to what did we Let's assume you're on a 2:15:26.920 --> 2:15:31.400 you know, a family trip. Can you go without playing 2:15:31.520 --> 2:15:34.000 the instrument for a week, or you're the type of 2:15:34.040 --> 2:15:35.760 person who says me and I got to play it 2:15:35.840 --> 2:15:38.320 and when you're home, how much do you practice? 2:15:39.960 --> 2:15:43.080 I don't practice is very much. I ought to practice more. 2:15:43.160 --> 2:15:46.120 In some years I practiced more than others. A couple 2:15:46.200 --> 2:15:48.800 of years ago, I started taking base lessons online. I've 2:15:48.800 --> 2:15:51.120 got a great kick out of that, and I learned 2:15:51.120 --> 2:15:56.000 a lot. I'm fine not playing for really any amount 2:15:56.000 --> 2:15:58.720 of time. It's what I do, and work will come 2:15:58.760 --> 2:16:00.960 in or work on my own music, and then when 2:16:01.000 --> 2:16:03.880 I come back I have learned through the years. I've learned, Okay, 2:16:03.880 --> 2:16:06.480 if I've been two weeks without playing, then it's going 2:16:06.560 --> 2:16:08.560 to be three days or something like that of playing 2:16:08.600 --> 2:16:11.560 before I have it back. And since I'm on the subject, 2:16:12.640 --> 2:16:16.400 the biggest technical thing about coming back is playing jazz. 2:16:16.440 --> 2:16:19.240 When I haven't been playing jazz for some reason, the 2:16:19.400 --> 2:16:22.480 technical thing of my fingers is very different. So I 2:16:22.560 --> 2:16:26.520 could be playing my butt off for six months with 2:16:26.600 --> 2:16:29.360 King Crimson and I come back and go out on 2:16:29.400 --> 2:16:32.360 the road with my brother playing jazz, and I need 2:16:32.760 --> 2:16:35.320 a week a full week of playing every day before that, 2:16:35.840 --> 2:16:39.119 or I just don't sound good. So the switch from 2:16:39.600 --> 2:16:42.200 rock to jazz is a profound one. But the switch 2:16:42.240 --> 2:16:45.400 from not playing at all to rock is only a 2:16:45.480 --> 2:16:48.760 few days for me, and to play jazz again it 2:16:48.760 --> 2:16:49.480 would be a whole week. 2:16:50.240 --> 2:16:52.920 Speaking of fingers, what's this funk fingers thing? 2:16:54.440 --> 2:16:57.440 On the SO album in nineteen eighty five, on one 2:16:57.520 --> 2:17:00.600 track called Big Time, I ask Jerry Marauder, the drummer, 2:17:01.240 --> 2:17:05.240 if he would drum on the bass strings while I 2:17:05.360 --> 2:17:08.240 fingered the left hand. While I'm saying this, I'm showing 2:17:08.320 --> 2:17:13.320 you the funk fingers. So that piece, Big Time came 2:17:13.360 --> 2:17:16.160 out fine. And then the year after, we were touring 2:17:16.240 --> 2:17:20.160 with Peter Gabriel in nineteen eighty six, and I found 2:17:20.200 --> 2:17:22.600 that I couldn't play the darn part. I held one 2:17:22.720 --> 2:17:24.920 drumstick in my right hand. I'm trying to play that, 2:17:25.000 --> 2:17:28.040 and I was practicing all the time, maybe obnoxiously, and 2:17:28.160 --> 2:17:30.280 one day Peter Gabriel walked by me at soundcheck and 2:17:30.320 --> 2:17:33.480 looked at me and said, when you put two drumsticks 2:17:33.520 --> 2:17:37.200 on your fingers. So Peter, in that moment, invented what 2:17:37.320 --> 2:17:40.039 I later called funk fingers. I had my bass tech, 2:17:40.120 --> 2:17:42.440 Andy Moore, make them up and we did a lot 2:17:42.480 --> 2:17:45.440 of experimenting with stretch velcrow and dipping them in rubber 2:17:45.840 --> 2:17:47.560 so they didn't break the strings, so they had some 2:17:47.760 --> 2:17:50.560 rubber factor to them, and I played them ever since. 2:17:50.680 --> 2:17:52.320 Not a great deal, but I played them on one 2:17:52.400 --> 2:17:56.400 track on my new album, and I played them I 2:17:56.440 --> 2:17:58.920 don't know the odds, maybe one out of fifteen tracks 2:17:58.959 --> 2:17:59.880 that I do for other people. 2:18:01.000 --> 2:18:03.280 Okay, so they're like five or six for those you 2:18:03.360 --> 2:18:06.160 can't see the zudio, only they have a little finger attachment. 2:18:06.240 --> 2:18:08.560 Then it looks like, you know, a piece of plastic. 2:18:08.680 --> 2:18:09.520 What actually is it? 2:18:09.959 --> 2:18:13.640 It's a drumstick. These last sometimes they're red, these new ones, 2:18:13.680 --> 2:18:19.200 but usually they're drumstick colored. And the end is dipped 2:18:19.240 --> 2:18:23.400 in very weird stuff called tool handle dip, really weird 2:18:23.440 --> 2:18:26.360 stuff that you just dip something in it, for instance 2:18:26.400 --> 2:18:29.560 a hammer handle, and it comes out as rubber as 2:18:29.600 --> 2:18:31.320 soon as you take it away from the can as dry. 2:18:31.400 --> 2:18:33.960 And that's weird, but that's I found that to be 2:18:34.040 --> 2:18:36.040 the perfect product for the end, to make it so 2:18:36.640 --> 2:18:38.400 it doesn't actually break the bass strings. I did a 2:18:38.440 --> 2:18:40.640 lot of experimenting. If it was the string, the sticks 2:18:40.680 --> 2:18:42.360 are too heavy, they break the strings. If they were 2:18:42.400 --> 2:18:44.720 too light, they bounce in a way that you can't control. 2:18:45.280 --> 2:18:48.400 If the stretched velcrow was too tight, my fingers turned purple. 2:18:48.440 --> 2:18:50.800 If it was too loose, the sticks would go flying 2:18:50.840 --> 2:18:52.920 into the audience, which they have done a lot. And 2:18:53.040 --> 2:18:57.400 when I got it right, which is stretching adjustable vel crow, 2:18:57.720 --> 2:18:59.080 when I got it right, I got a guy to 2:18:59.120 --> 2:19:01.000 make a whole bunch of them. My hope was in 2:19:01.080 --> 2:19:03.800 the beginning, which would have been in the late eighties 2:19:04.240 --> 2:19:06.040 that a lot of bass players would just get them. 2:19:06.080 --> 2:19:08.560 I think I sawd them for ten dollars online somehow, 2:19:08.800 --> 2:19:11.440 I don't remember through what mechanism. So I hoped a 2:19:11.480 --> 2:19:13.240 lot of players would use them and play them, and 2:19:13.360 --> 2:19:16.280 that didn't turn out to be the case. I'm sure 2:19:16.520 --> 2:19:18.800 a few guys, a few guys, a few bass players 2:19:18.879 --> 2:19:20.880 have them, and I hope they're using them, and I 2:19:21.000 --> 2:19:21.720 use them quite a bit. 2:19:22.720 --> 2:19:26.360 And what's the difference between and your feelings about pick 2:19:26.520 --> 2:19:27.320 versus fingers. 2:19:29.120 --> 2:19:32.680 I've never been. I wasn't. I didn't come up playing pick, 2:19:32.760 --> 2:19:35.080 so I'm not very good at it. Sometimes if that's 2:19:35.160 --> 2:19:37.080 the sound that I hear for that piece, then I'm 2:19:37.080 --> 2:19:38.680 going to play with a pick and hope that I 2:19:38.760 --> 2:19:42.240 can work it out. That happens sometimes lately not so much. 2:19:43.920 --> 2:19:48.760 I think thinking back to Don't Give Up, Peter Gabriel's thing, 2:19:48.800 --> 2:19:50.200 I think on the record, I did play it with 2:19:50.320 --> 2:19:52.840 a pick. It just seemed like the right piece, the 2:19:52.959 --> 2:19:55.600 right sound for that. But as soon as I got 2:19:55.760 --> 2:19:58.160 playing live, I found a way with thinkers to make 2:19:58.240 --> 2:20:02.000 it feel good. By the way the song Don't Give Up, 2:20:02.080 --> 2:20:04.400 I had mentioned my daughter being thirty nine, so in 2:20:04.520 --> 2:20:08.240 nineteen eighty five. There she was with me two months 2:20:08.280 --> 2:20:11.760 old in the studio in England and her mother and 2:20:11.800 --> 2:20:15.920 I had packed diapers into the base case because naively 2:20:16.000 --> 2:20:18.560 I thought, well diapers, England doesn't know how to do diapers, 2:20:18.720 --> 2:20:21.160 so we had pampers in the base case and on 2:20:21.280 --> 2:20:23.760 that piece. Don't give up. When I was looking around 2:20:24.200 --> 2:20:26.280 the last part of the piece. It has a different feel, 2:20:26.640 --> 2:20:29.600 different groove, which frankly we did later after we had 2:20:29.640 --> 2:20:31.879 the first part of it, and I was looking around 2:20:31.920 --> 2:20:34.400 for some dampening material and I saw those diapers and 2:20:34.480 --> 2:20:37.240 I put a diaper a pamper under the strings the 2:20:37.360 --> 2:20:41.440 sound which Peter Gabriel quickly named the super Nappy bass sound. 2:20:42.000 --> 2:20:45.360 And I have to smile when I think about my 2:20:45.520 --> 2:20:48.840 daughter Maggie now hearing that piece and knowing it goes 2:20:48.920 --> 2:20:51.040 back to the very beginning of her life that she 2:20:51.200 --> 2:20:53.560 was connected with dad on the road and dad recording 2:20:53.600 --> 2:20:54.359 with Peter Gabriel. 2:20:55.600 --> 2:20:58.160 And tell me about taking bas lessons online. 2:20:58.800 --> 2:21:01.400 Yeah, Scott's base less and I recommend them. They're great, 2:21:01.480 --> 2:21:04.120 and I take a peek at them once in a while. 2:21:04.160 --> 2:21:07.440 And I decided a few years ago, while I was 2:21:07.480 --> 2:21:10.199 touring with King Crimson and the other guys were practicing 2:21:10.280 --> 2:21:14.040 in the other rooms. I was taking actually beginner, not beginner, 2:21:14.120 --> 2:21:18.320 but basic the basics of bass playing, like how to 2:21:18.440 --> 2:21:20.920 hit the how to pluck the string and things like that. 2:21:21.080 --> 2:21:24.640 So I'm in my dressing room playing one note at 2:21:24.680 --> 2:21:26.720 a time on the same note for five minutes, just 2:21:26.840 --> 2:21:28.760 one note with one finger, and then I go on 2:21:28.840 --> 2:21:31.600 stage and play King Crimson concert, which is pretty complicated, 2:21:31.920 --> 2:21:35.160 and I appreciated the irony of that, but also I learned. 2:21:35.200 --> 2:21:39.000 And the fact is I confronted the fact that I 2:21:39.200 --> 2:21:42.000 was trained as an upright player, which is a different 2:21:42.040 --> 2:21:45.240 technique than the electric bass, and when I switched to 2:21:45.320 --> 2:21:47.920 having frets, there were no teachers to show me, Oh, 2:21:47.959 --> 2:21:49.320 here's the way you do that. So I just did 2:21:49.360 --> 2:21:52.080 it whatever way I did it, not necessarily the best way. 2:21:52.120 --> 2:21:54.720 And it's good to finally be aware of some of 2:21:54.760 --> 2:21:57.800 the options, of technic technical options of how you can 2:21:57.879 --> 2:22:04.720 do that. Okay, so this is youtubeh No, Yes, some 2:22:04.840 --> 2:22:05.920 of the clips are on YouTube. 2:22:06.000 --> 2:22:09.160 Yes, okay, Just so I know for people who are interested, 2:22:09.720 --> 2:22:12.800 this is lessons that you pay for and you watch videos. 2:22:12.879 --> 2:22:13.720 What exactly is it? 2:22:14.000 --> 2:22:16.560 Either one you can see Scott's based lessons. He's an 2:22:16.640 --> 2:22:20.560 excellent teacher, more than anybody I've met. He understands the 2:22:20.720 --> 2:22:23.920 technique behind playing this simple instrument in the electric bass 2:22:24.280 --> 2:22:26.800 and so yes, you can see clips on YouTube. But 2:22:26.920 --> 2:22:30.240 I contacted the website and what I don't know how 2:22:30.240 --> 2:22:34.119 you call I subscribed to a series of twelve lessons, 2:22:34.160 --> 2:22:36.000 I think twelve hour long lessons. 2:22:36.280 --> 2:22:38.560 Does Scott know you're taking his lessons? 2:22:39.840 --> 2:22:40.240 I think so. 2:22:40.520 --> 2:22:40.720 Yeah. 2:22:41.040 --> 2:22:44.200 I haven't spoken indirectly, but I've spoken to one of 2:22:44.280 --> 2:22:48.560 his co teachers who does know. But I did buy it. 2:22:48.640 --> 2:22:49.800 I don't want to be given it. 2:22:52.160 --> 2:22:54.360 Tony. I want to thank you so much for talking 2:22:54.480 --> 2:22:57.920 to me and my audience. Amazing thing is seen you 2:22:58.040 --> 2:23:01.040 on stage in a video a million time, and you 2:23:01.240 --> 2:23:05.320 have sort of a dark persona, which as a regular 2:23:05.440 --> 2:23:09.520 person that's not the case whatsoever. Kind of shocking. You've 2:23:09.560 --> 2:23:11.960 been very open and honest. I want to thank you 2:23:12.080 --> 2:23:13.280 again for talking with me. 2:23:13.720 --> 2:23:15.400 Thank you very much. Maybe you just caught me on 2:23:15.520 --> 2:23:18.400 a good day when the dark persona is not there. 2:23:18.480 --> 2:23:22.240 I don't know, but I appreciate your expertise and the 2:23:22.280 --> 2:23:24.560 wisdom behind your questions. I really do appreciate that. 2:23:24.879 --> 2:23:28.200 So thank you for having me okay, you know he's 2:23:28.240 --> 2:23:30.400 got a new album. You definitely want to see the 2:23:30.440 --> 2:23:33.480 beat on the road. In any event, that's been Tony 2:23:33.600 --> 2:23:37.200 Levin with Bob left sets. Till next time. Thanks,