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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Bassis Extraordinary Tony Levin. Tony, you

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Speaker 1: have a new album. Tell us about it?

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Speaker 2: Well, I will, and first of all, thanks for having

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Speaker 2: me on. Great to speak to you and great to

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Speaker 2: have a chance to talk about my album. I'm a

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Speaker 2: bass player. It's called Bringing It Down to the Bass,

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Speaker 2: kind of fitting title, and I've been working on it

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Speaker 2: for years. And the reason I've been working on it

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Speaker 2: for years is I have this big problem, which is

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Speaker 2: a wonderful problem. I love playing on the road and

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Speaker 2: I get a lot of chance to tour with King

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Speaker 2: Crimson and Peter Gabriel and stick Man and Leven Brothers.

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Speaker 2: So because of that, I keep getting going on the

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Speaker 2: album and that's stopping. But this year I resolved to

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Speaker 2: take a few months and finish it up, get some

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Speaker 2: great drummers on. It's some of my great musician friends,

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Speaker 2: and I got to finish. It'll be out September thirteenth.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about the album itself.

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Speaker 2: Largely instrumental. Sometimes I'm moved to do a vocal, but

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Speaker 2: usually it's in a comedic way. I either either speak

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Speaker 2: a poem or there's one track I decided to, Hey,

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Speaker 2: what if I did a vocal song with a chorus

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Speaker 2: of me singing only using the names of drummers I

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Speaker 2: played in played with Excuse me. I spent the whole

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Speaker 2: of the Lockdown year doing that because I didn't have

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Speaker 2: a whole lot else to do. So there's that piece

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Speaker 2: called on the Drums, which just has drummers names for

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Speaker 2: the lyrics. And on most of the pieces I try,

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Speaker 2: I started them out with trying to find a bass

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Speaker 2: groove or a bass sound, or a technique like a

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Speaker 2: fingernail playing or funk fingers. This way, I played the

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Speaker 2: bass and I began the composition with that. Then I

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Speaker 2: spent some time finishing it the composition, and then then

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Speaker 2: things got good because I turned it over to some

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Speaker 2: of the great players I know to join me on

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Speaker 2: the album.

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Speaker 1: Okay, when you say you turned it over to players,

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Speaker 1: you sent him the tracks and said do what you

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Speaker 1: want to. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: My way of doing this is to pick the right

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Speaker 2: player and not have to tell him what to play,

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Speaker 2: because he's the guy I wanted on and especially with drummers.

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Speaker 2: The drummers I know, the excellent drummers, they don't love

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Speaker 2: being told what to play, and there's no need if

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Speaker 2: you want that drummer. So each each piece, as I

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Speaker 2: got really the sense of it, and I finished my

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Speaker 2: bass part, I thought, well, of the many great drummers

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Speaker 2: I know, who would be the guy I would want

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Speaker 2: on this? Maybe it was Steve Gadd, my old friend,

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Speaker 2: or Mono Kach whom I tour with with Peter Gabriel

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Speaker 2: and any others. Vinnie Keludo and I chose that player,

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Speaker 2: and luckily they all said yes, and I sent them

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Speaker 2: the files.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about doing this during lockdown? Were the

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Speaker 1: songs written during lockdown? Or it was type of thing

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Speaker 1: where you were accumulating stuff for years and you finally

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Speaker 1: laid it down.

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Speaker 2: A good question, and the answer is all of the above.

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Speaker 2: What the one I took the whole of the lockdown

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Speaker 2: here was that were really quirky? One where I used

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Speaker 2: the names of I just had pieces of paper all

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Speaker 2: over the place with names of drummers that might not

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Speaker 2: rhyme with each other, but that might go together in

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Speaker 2: a certain section. Some of these pieces I wrote quite

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Speaker 2: a while ago. There's one poem about just chatman stick

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Speaker 2: as an instrument I play and there's one with me

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Speaker 2: reciting this poem about John Lennon and playing the Chapman Stick.

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Speaker 2: And there are others that I composed as recently as

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Speaker 2: two months ago.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're in the studio. What do you actually

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Speaker 1: lay down on it's not tape anymore, on the hard

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Speaker 1: drive or the solid state drive before you send it

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Speaker 1: to someone? How much is there?

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Speaker 2: These are really great questions. I appreciate it, and they're

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Speaker 2: making me think about how we do it. It turns out

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Speaker 2: it varies a whole lot. There's one one or two

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Speaker 2: pieces that I just did the bass to a click track,

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Speaker 2: so there's a tempo, and then I sent it to

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Speaker 2: the drummer, and then I sent that after he did it,

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Speaker 2: I sent that to the other players. However, there's somewhere

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Speaker 2: I did every part except for the drums, because the

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Speaker 2: Chapman Stick can also play guitar parts, and then I

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Speaker 2: began thinking about what guitar player to have really play

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Speaker 2: what I envisioned and likewise, so a wide variety of

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Speaker 2: ways to do it, and I probably over the few

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Speaker 2: years I've been working on this, I probably did all

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Speaker 2: of those varieties.

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Speaker 1: Okay, do you ever call somebody you don't know, or

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Speaker 1: everybody who's on the record you have a pre existing

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Speaker 1: relationship with.

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Speaker 2: In this case, I know all of the folks. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I know they're playing very well. I know I

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Speaker 2: know them. Maybe we've been on the road together, but

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Speaker 2: I know they're playing, and that's why I chose them

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Speaker 2: for the particular song.

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Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned three different drummers, my new Gad Calayuta.

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Speaker 1: What's the difference as a bass player between those drummers?

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Speaker 2: All right, how many hours do we have have because

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Speaker 2: we'll see, Yeah, we bass players and drummers really spend

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Speaker 2: our time together, are learning or then enjoying each other's

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Speaker 2: feel and the slight differences that nobody else knows between us. So,

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Speaker 2: by the way, there are much many more drummers than

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Speaker 2: that Mike Portnoy played on the album. Pat Mascellato, Jeremy Stacey,

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Speaker 2: and Jerrey Maratta. Uh yeah, some guys, some of the

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Speaker 2: I'll only speak about the really excellent players. Each of

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Speaker 2: them has their own feel really different than other players. Ideally,

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Speaker 2: each of them is going to play within the time

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Speaker 2: parameters we have, in other words, that are going to

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Speaker 2: speed up or slow down. Most of the guys that

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Speaker 2: I work with do not do that. So within those

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Speaker 2: parameters or rules, there's a lot of space for playing

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Speaker 2: on top of the beat or behind the beat, and

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Speaker 2: how you phrase things and how how Some drummers will

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Speaker 2: will make the whole kit sound like one instrument, but

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Speaker 2: others h Manu, Vinni Caliro will, Steve gadd also will

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Speaker 2: articulate some of the the element of the drum kit

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Speaker 2: more than others, so it feels not like a drum kit.

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Speaker 2: It feels like better really kind of like a drum

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Speaker 2: kit that it is alive. And let me just tell

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Speaker 2: a short story. I toured with Peter Gabriel when he

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Speaker 2: did a joint tour with Sting in twenty sixteen, and

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Speaker 2: the two bands alternated songs, but I stayed on stage

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Speaker 2: because I love being on stage during Stings stuff. And

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Speaker 2: I was standing or sitting right in front of Vinnie

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Speaker 2: Caludo playing drums, So there I was sitting on his

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Speaker 2: riser through all of the Stink pieces. It was a

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Speaker 2: great thrill for me and actually a learning learning experience

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Speaker 2: because that's when I realized how much subtle phrasing he's

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Speaker 2: doing within the part that he's playing.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask a really dumb question about to ask

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Speaker 1: it anyway. What's the difference between Jerry Murrada and Rick Murata.

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Speaker 2: Well, Rick's a little older. I began playing with Rick

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Speaker 2: way back when I was a studio musician, and he

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Speaker 2: he is a great drummer. But he kind of moved

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Speaker 2: on even beyond studio playing and moved to Los Angeles

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Speaker 2: and became a writer for TV stuff and very successful

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Speaker 2: at that and a very good producer. His younger brother Jerry,

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Speaker 2: maybe not so young anymore, but still to me, the

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Speaker 2: baby in the family, the younger Jerry. I toured with

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Speaker 2: a great deal I think the first Peter Gabriel tour. No,

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Speaker 2: the second one needed a drummer. The first drummer drummer

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Speaker 2: the first tour didn't want to do it anymore, and

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Speaker 2: Peter asked me who we should use, and I said, well,

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Speaker 2: my good friend Rick Murrauda would be great for that.

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Speaker 2: And Rick was busy and suggested his younger brother, Jerry Murta. Hence,

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Speaker 2: I asked Peter to use Jerry in the band and

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Speaker 2: it worked out really well for a number of tours

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Speaker 2: in a number of years. And by the way, they

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Speaker 2: play with a field that's similar but quite different. I

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Speaker 2: don't think I'll waste everybody's time by analyzing everything about it.

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Speaker 2: But I can tell hearing a record of them, which

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Speaker 2: one it is.

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Speaker 1: Okay. You know, in this world, people are always saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, this person's the best, that person's the best,

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Speaker 1: certainly in terms of you know, guitarists, but also bassis

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Speaker 1: and drummers. Is that something you can even apply to

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Speaker 1: these people? Or at this level, everybody's great and their

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Speaker 1: sound is a little bit different.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's about the sound or about the level.

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Speaker 2: It's about who's making that decision. So I know about

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Speaker 2: my One thing I know about is bass playing. Another

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Speaker 2: thing I know about is myself. And I don't tend

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Speaker 2: towards having favorites of anything or thinking that anything is

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Speaker 2: the best, except a football team or something that's provably

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Speaker 2: the best. So with the arts, with painters, with writers,

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Speaker 2: with musicians, with drummers, I'm capable of really thoroughly enjoying

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Speaker 2: bass players. I hear, for instance, many of the bass players,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not moved to pick a favorite or even

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Speaker 2: begin to think who's the best. I don't think there's

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Speaker 2: any such thing among us musicians.

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Speaker 1: Now you know, everything's totally findable online. So you're in

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Speaker 1: your late seventies, most people they want to get off

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Speaker 1: the road. What do you like so much about being

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Speaker 1: on the road.

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Speaker 2: That's very simple. It's the two hours or three hours

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Speaker 2: a night that I get to play the music that

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Speaker 2: I love to play. That's why as a child I

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Speaker 2: decided to be a bass player, hoping i'd get to

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Speaker 2: play good music with good players. How lucky I am

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Speaker 2: that I do that. Yes, the other twenty two hours

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Speaker 2: a day have got more difficult, and as you get older,

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Speaker 2: they're still a little more difficult, and especially not because

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Speaker 2: of age, but the last few years travel We all

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Speaker 2: know travel has become hard or more fraught. But those

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Speaker 2: do those two hours make up for it more than that.

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Speaker 2: Those two hours are priceless, and we are I know

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Speaker 2: at this age, how lucky I am. How lucky anyone

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Speaker 2: is who can not only play the music they really

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Speaker 2: like and get an audience that enjoys that music to

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Speaker 2: come and it and share the music with them, but

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Speaker 2: actually do it professionally and actually make a living from it.

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Speaker 2: Very special, very lucky.

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Speaker 1: Some superstar bands what they do when they go on tour,

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Speaker 1: they'll base in Atlanta Chicago, and they'll take it jet

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Speaker 1: to every date, so they stay in the same bed. Now,

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Speaker 1: when you tour with Peter Gabriel, how do you do it?

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Speaker 2: The last few tours there was Yes, there was a

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Speaker 2: private jet, which involves a whole lot of interesting factors,

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Speaker 2: like doing what we call a runner off stage. I

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Speaker 2: would prefer to meet my many friends who came to

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Speaker 2: the show in a hospitality room, hang out and use

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Speaker 2: that wonderful energy you have when you come off stage

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Speaker 2: because something very special has happened. I would prefer to

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Speaker 2: stay in town. That's not what the band does. We

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Speaker 2: don't run off stage, but we walk off stage. But

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Speaker 2: then we put a robe over ourselves and jump into

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Speaker 2: a van and go to the nearest airport fly either

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Speaker 2: to a hub, as you said some bands do that,

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Speaker 2: or to the next city, so we wake up in

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Speaker 2: the next city that we're going to play in, which

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Speaker 2: has big advantages to it. Of course, if it was

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Speaker 2: up to me, I would stay in the town, but

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Speaker 2: I believe me, I do plenty of other kinds of

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Speaker 2: tours with Stickmen Jief. Sometimes we go looking for the

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Speaker 2: hotel after the show. We haven't even had time to

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Speaker 2: check in, and sometimes we leave very early in the

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Speaker 2: morning for a long drive to the next town. So

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Speaker 2: we have private jet is way better than that. I

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Speaker 2: would add that being a professional musician, some of the

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Speaker 2: job and some of the life is being adaptable to

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Speaker 2: those two situations where you're at the top of the

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Speaker 2: world and everybody's excited about you, and you're at the

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Speaker 2: bottom of the world. I have lots of experience in

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Speaker 2: my career, including recently, when suddenly the bottom falls out

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Speaker 2: and you're sitting in the corner of an airport waiting

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Speaker 2: for someone to pick you up. We didn't show up,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly you realize you don't know where your hotel

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Speaker 2: room is, or what you're going to do for dinner,

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Speaker 2: or you don't have any money of that currency. Those

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Speaker 2: things happen all the time to us.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you play on stage for a couple of hours,

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Speaker 1: that's a very intense experience. You really want to talk

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Speaker 1: to people after the show?

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Speaker 2: Actually, good question in some situations, Yes, in the hospitality

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Speaker 2: room without too many people. Yes. What are we do

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Speaker 2: in smaller bands now, which is most of the bands

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Speaker 2: I play in what we call merch the selling of

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Speaker 2: CDs and tour. T shirts is a necessary part of

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Speaker 2: the tour because all the expenses went up. The gas

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Speaker 2: went up, hotels went way up, but the price were

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Speaker 2: paid by the club didn't go up. Okay, that's no problem.

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Speaker 2: Well that's a bit of a problem. But if we

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Speaker 2: sell enough CDs and merch, if we come out the

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Speaker 2: same at the end of the day, and so to

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Speaker 2: enhance that, we'll have a table out in the entrance

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Speaker 2: way and we'll go out there at some point. Myself,

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Speaker 2: I like to grab a sip of wine first to

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Speaker 2: kind of finish off the music part of the But

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Speaker 2: then yeah, we go out to sign and sometimes if

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Speaker 2: we have to take pictures with people wearing a mask

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Speaker 2: is an issue for me. I try to be safe

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Speaker 2: and not pass on germs one night to another, and

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Speaker 2: certainly don't shake hands and pass on germs in that way.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot to it. It's a little bit fraud,

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Speaker 2: but there's something we do, okay, So that do I

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Speaker 2: love that. No, I do it, and I'm okay with it.

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Speaker 2: But what I would rather do is have finished the

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Speaker 2: couple classes of wine and then go into a backstage

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Speaker 2: room that has maybe ten friends or family or even

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Speaker 2: fifteen or twenty, but not fifty.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's say you're running an arena tour, not that

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Speaker 1: it really matters in this case. You play for two hours,

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Speaker 1: you're done at eleven o'clock. How long until you can

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Speaker 1: fall asleep?

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Speaker 2: These are good questions me a long time, but I've

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Speaker 2: I've used I've learned to use that time in ways

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Speaker 2: that work for me. I keep a road diary online

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Speaker 2: with lots of photos I take during the day, so

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Speaker 2: when I finally get whenever it is I get to

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Speaker 2: that hotel room, I will work for an hour or

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Speaker 2: two on Photoshop a lot, downloading the pictures, seeing what

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Speaker 2: I've got, maybe writing a little redal diary about it,

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Speaker 2: and hopefully when I wake up in the morning, I'm

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Speaker 2: I have it in shape to upload the right pictures.

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Speaker 2: So I, frankly I enjoyed that. I really love that

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Speaker 2: the web. One thing about the web is that I

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Speaker 2: found out in the nineties I was early to have

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Speaker 2: a web page, and it seemed that it took down

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Speaker 2: some of the barrier between our artists and the audience,

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Speaker 2: and it allowed fans who happen to see it to

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Speaker 2: see an experience, not only what's backstage, but actually how

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Speaker 2: they look to us on stage and allowed them to

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Speaker 2: get it, how important they are to us who perform.

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Speaker 2: So it's worth the because I enjoy it. It's worth

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Speaker 2: an hour or two after the show. When I get

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Speaker 2: back to the hotel room and let me just say this,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk I hope a little about the

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Speaker 2: Beat tour that's coming up starting. Oh believe we were

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Speaker 2: getting there a bus tour. The band is traveling by bus,

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Speaker 2: and that's that's a whole different thing. So when you

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Speaker 2: say hit the bed, you're hitting the bus. And some

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Speaker 2: guys just can't sleep on the bus. I sort of can.

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Speaker 2: But those two hours, at least two hours, I'll be

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Speaker 2: doing photoshop, either in the lounge room depends on how

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Speaker 2: loud the music is there, how much it distracts me,

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Speaker 2: or I'll crawl into my bunk and with my laptop.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, I know people who've been you know,

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Speaker 1: household names have been on tour for a year straight

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Speaker 1: and it took them a year to recover. Now you know,

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Speaker 1: everything's changing. People say, you know, all the scientific studies

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Speaker 1: say you really do need eight hours of sleep. There's

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Speaker 1: a badge of honor sleeping little. But the nature of

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Speaker 1: the game. Are you always trying to catch up on

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Speaker 1: sleep or if you've done this long enough to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to get enough shut eye?

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Speaker 2: Good question for me. It's not about sleep. Maybe for

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Speaker 2: some people it is, I think for singers. I've heard

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Speaker 2: Paul Simon Wentz told me not too long ago, too

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Speaker 2: many years ago, that he needs twelve hours of sleep

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Speaker 2: for his voice to be okay on tour. Me I

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Speaker 2: don't have that problem, and I'm one of those people

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Speaker 2: who can't sleep more than six hours. Maybe I read

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Speaker 2: the article you were talking about, but what I never

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Speaker 2: read is, Okay, I don't sleep eight hours. How do

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Speaker 2: I get to sleep eight hours? Drinking a sip of

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Speaker 2: milk before bed won't do it. So I just never

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Speaker 2: sleep more than six And if some night on the

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Speaker 2: road I only get four hours, that's not really a problem.

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Speaker 2: I don't do all nighters the way I used to

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Speaker 2: be able to do. That's for sure.

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Speaker 1: Well they do say in the articles is some people

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Speaker 1: just don't need that much sleep. It's not the majority,

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Speaker 1: but that's one of you.

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Speaker 2: What if you need it but you can't do it,

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Speaker 2: the body wakes up.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole another thing. Okay, you talk about alcohol.

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Speaker 1: You've been doing this for decades. What has your history

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Speaker 1: been with drugs and alcohol?

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Speaker 2: Wow, getting right to the deep stuff. I never was

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Speaker 2: a drug guy. I can I drink moderately. I think

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Speaker 2: I think there was a tour or two where I

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Speaker 2: was not happy for various reasons, and I drank more

334
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Speaker 2: than moderately. Didn't get drunk every night or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's no fun in my answers about drugs

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Speaker 2: and alcohol. And in fact, I haven't been in many

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Speaker 2: bands where the other guys were doing drugs and alcohol.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to go through every individual on every tour.

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Speaker 2: I've got really a lot of tours, but generally the ones,

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Speaker 2: you know what, fans of King Crimson probably realized that

341
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Speaker 2: the band is playing such difficult music that we're we

342
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Speaker 2: just wouldn't be capable of playing that show if we

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Speaker 2: were less than one hundred percent. In fact, that's a

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Speaker 2: band that needs days off between shows and needs to

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Speaker 2: have there to be rested, because any mental laps will

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Speaker 2: mess up the whole rest of the band's The pieces

347
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Speaker 2: are not in four to four, so if somebody gets

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Speaker 2: off an eighth note, there's no way for any anyone

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Speaker 2: else does say one through three, four years where you are?

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Speaker 2: And the secret to me seems to be for us

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Speaker 2: all to stay rested.

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Speaker 1: Now today many people are follically challenged shave their heads. Well,

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you had a shaved head and a mustache,

354
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Speaker 1: you know, decades and decades ago. My question is to

355
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Speaker 1: what degree when you're out and about are you recognized?

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Speaker 2: Good question? Again, it varies if I'm playing in the town,

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Speaker 2: if I'm playing with Peter Gabriel or King Crimson in

358
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Speaker 2: the town, I'm likely to get recognized a bit walking

359
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Speaker 2: around in the streets. If I'm not playing there, I

360
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,159
Speaker 2: never get once in a while, but very rare for

361
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Speaker 2: me to be recognized. There was once I was a

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Speaker 2: customs going into Italy and not yeah customs, and the

363
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Speaker 2: guy wanted to go through all my stuff, even I had, Hey,

364
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Speaker 2: what do you call it? A bar of shaving? Not cream,

365
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Speaker 2: but it's all soap bar and he wanted to cut

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Speaker 2: it in half. I thought, I don't mind that that

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00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 2: that's pretty extreme. And then I heard him, he speaking Italian,

368
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Speaker 2: and I heard him say there's something to his associate,

369
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Speaker 2: and he mentioned pink Floyd, and I realized that he

370
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 2: was just enjoying being spending some time with one of

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Speaker 2: the guys who would have recorded with Pink Floyd. He

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Speaker 2: didn't hear me, He didn't know that. I heard him

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Speaker 2: say that I.

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Speaker 1: Know someone who was a photographer for Led Zeppelin, and

375
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Speaker 1: don't forget this before digital And he said, I've been

376
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Speaker 1: around the world and seen nothing. So you've been around

377
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Speaker 1: the world. You know, you're writing, taking pictures. You the

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Speaker 1: type of person. Oh, I'm in Prague. There's somewhere I

379
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Speaker 1: want to go in Prague. Many people you know, this

380
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 1: is a classic line in rock and roll. You know,

381
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,679
Speaker 1: Hello Cleveland, and there in Chicago, they got no idea

382
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Speaker 1: where they are. What kind of guy are you?

383
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Speaker 2: It's all true. I try, when I used to try

384
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Speaker 2: harder than I try now. It depends on the schedule,

385
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Speaker 2: but generally there is no time. Sometimes there's no time

386
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,040
Speaker 2: to see even a street downtown. You just go right

387
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Speaker 2: to the venue. You do your sound check, you do

388
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 2: your setup for the show, you have dinner backstage, you

389
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 2: play your show, and then you either go somewhere else.

390
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 2: So you go to hotel at midnight and you wake

391
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Speaker 2: up at eight o'clock and leave eight am and leave

392
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Speaker 2: for somewhere else. Yeah, that happens a lot. Of course.

393
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Speaker 2: I have, as you said, been I had it a

394
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Speaker 2: long time, and I've made the rounds a lot, and

395
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Speaker 2: sooner or later I'll have a day off in most

396
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Speaker 2: places and try to enjoy it. Do I have the

397
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Speaker 2: initiative and energy to go to museums and things like that? No,

398
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Speaker 2: I'm not that guy. I wish I was, but I'm not.

399
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Speaker 1: So if you have a day off, what do you do?

400
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 2: A lot of times I have friends. I'll meet him

401
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 2: for a meal or hang out. Sometimes I'll go to

402
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Speaker 2: a club and hear another band that's a treat and

403
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 2: inn a rarity. And sometimes it really depends where it is.

404
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 2: If it's Italy, I'm going to go out for as

405
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Speaker 2: many meals as i can, and I'm going to meet

406
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Speaker 2: friends because I've been there a lot and have a

407
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Speaker 2: lot of friends. And if it's someplace I haven't been,

408
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Speaker 2: I'll hopefully the hotel is downtown and I'll just take

409
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Speaker 2: a walk and really spend hours walking around and taking photos.

410
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Speaker 1: I have found in my travels, which are not as

411
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Speaker 1: extensive as yours, that the places where people don't speak English.

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Speaker 1: I find those exotic places are the most interesting, you know,

413
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Speaker 1: whether it be Bogata, Brazil, India. What are the couple

414
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Speaker 1: of fascinating places you've been to?

415
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Speaker 2: Oh hard to think back on, you know. I've been

416
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Speaker 2: a lot of places I have been, not to Bogata

417
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 2: and not to India, actually almost to India. My friend

418
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 2: Shankar asked me to do a tour with him once

419
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 2: quite a while ago. Uh, and I just didn't feel

420
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Speaker 2: comfortable about the fact that I didn't have a visa.

421
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 2: He said, oh, we'll get you that when you get here.

422
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: And I didn't have an itinerary. He said, oh, we'll

423
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Speaker 2: do that when you get here, and I said, you

424
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 2: know what, that's just too deep, a diving into a

425
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Speaker 2: deep pool that I don't want to take a chance on.

426
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Speaker 2: So it didn't. I can't remember one place that stands out,

427
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 2: but I've had a lot of great times and a

428
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 2: lot of great places, especially maybe especially as a photographer.

429
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Speaker 2: So for instance, in La Paz, when I'm on the

430
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: tram that people get around on because it's so hilly

431
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: and it's the altitude is extremely high, then I could

432
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 2: get amazing photos to me of the tram coming the

433
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Speaker 2: other way with a lady in it with that kind

434
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 2: of very distinctive hat that they wear in Bolivia that

435
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 2: looks like old fashioned, but that's the way they go

436
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 2: around on the streets. So stuff like that I get

437
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 2: a big kick out of. And by the way, when

438
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 2: I have a chance to share those photos on the

439
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: road diary or once every decade putting out a photo book,

440
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 2: I really enjoy the chance to share with others, with fans,

441
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 2: especially what it's like behind the scenes on tour.

442
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: So how'd you get into photography?

443
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 2: I don't remember. It was so long the earth was cooling.

444
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 2: There was this stuff called film, and there was no digital.

445
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I don't know, But I do know from

446
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 2: the time. I know from thinking back on my photos

447
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 2: that from the time I joined King Crimson, which is

448
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one, I was pretty intent on documenting, really

449
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 2: for myself, documenting what was going on. I know that

450
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: because the first show we played was in Bath in

451
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 2: a club called Moles in nineteen eighty one, and I

452
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 2: set up a tripod with a foot pedal, an analog

453
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: foot pedal to choose air into a trigger that would

454
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 2: trigger the pick, and I wanted very much to get

455
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 2: a picture of the first note that I played with

456
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 2: King Crimson in that context, and I did so. By

457
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 2: that time, the early eighties, I was pretty intently into it.

458
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 2: Let me just say another story about the same almost

459
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 2: the same year. One regret I have about the John

460
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: Lennon Yoko Ono albums that I did very quickly was

461
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: I had my camera with me. Of course, that was

462
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 2: in late nineteen eighty and on a break in the

463
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 2: control room, John and Yoko were listening to playback and

464
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 2: I came in with my camera and I said to John,

465
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 2: do you mind if I take a photo? And he said, well, yes,

466
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: I'd rather you didn't. I do mind, And that was fine.

467
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: But I'm kicking myself. That was nineteen eighty I'm still

468
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 2: kicking myself because the professional photographer would have taken the

469
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: picture and then asked, and I'm sure he wouldn't have

470
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: booted me off the session for doing that. He would

471
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 2: have just said, please don't do that, and I would

472
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: have that one picture that I don't have from that

473
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: very special experience.

474
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: Yes, but anyone who has met famous names and is

475
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: meeting them as opposed to on the meet and greet level. No,

476
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: there are certain rules and you don't violate those rules.

477
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that's why you asked first.

478
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but boy, I wish I had that picture.

479
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 1: And many people, if writing is only secondary to public speaking,

480
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: is their greatest fear. You know, you're right your blog,

481
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: which is very readable and articulate. Was this easy for

482
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: you or how did you decide to do that?

483
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: First of all, I did start what's called a web

484
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 2: blog before there was that word blog early nineties. I

485
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 2: fell into having a website and I thought I'll just

486
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: write about what it's like backstage. I have any very

487
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 2: easy time writing a lot. I have carry journals like

488
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 2: a lot of people do. Sometimes it lends itself to poetry.

489
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's just a log of what happened that day.

490
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 2: So very happy to share it with people actually talking

491
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: this kind of of this kind of adventure. I'm not

492
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: so good at it, as you can tell, because I

493
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 2: stumbled on the words and I don't dislike it. But

494
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: I'm very comfortable as a writer.

495
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: You know, what people don't realize is a lot of

496
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: times household name musicians and you're one of them. They

497
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: know certain fans because they come to certain gigs I

498
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: don't want to, you know, encourage people, but do you

499
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: know your super fans?

500
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: I know a lot of them. I'm not great with

501
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: names of friends and everybody, so I'm not always aware

502
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: of their names, but I know a lot of them,

503
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: and by look, I know just about all of them

504
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 2: to look at them. And one thing that's changed all

505
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 2: that for me is Adrian Blu and Pat Maslato and

506
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: I have a yearly music camp where we share almost

507
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: a week in the Catskill Mountains actually near where I live,

508
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: with fans or anybody who wants to sign up for it,

509
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: all of whom are musicians at some level, but very

510
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 2: few are professional musicians. There are people who do other

511
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: things and are fans of King Crimson. And the first

512
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: year I went to that with the reluctance because I'll

513
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: tell you why. I don't mind being around fans, but

514
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 2: I don't like being in the position where I'm the

515
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: guy who knows the stuff, where I'm going to be

516
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: giving a bass class about how to play the bass.

517
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: I just don't lend myself to that, and so I

518
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: thought I'll do it, but I'm not sure this is

519
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 2: going to work out well. What happened is and I

520
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: got to have meals with them and talk to these

521
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: maybe fifty people who and learned their journey, something about

522
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: their journey, what brought them there, and what they love

523
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: about music and what they play. I was captivated by that,

524
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: and we just finished doing our twelfth year of that.

525
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 2: So a lot of the campers, by the way we

526
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: call them the campers, a lot of these people are

527
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: the same people. I know them very well. Twelve years

528
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 2: of spending four or five days together every summer and

529
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: by the way, jamming and making music together. So that

530
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: kind of put me more connected not only with them,

531
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: but with understanding the mindset of the people who just

532
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 2: are mad fans of King Crimson or Peter Gabriel, but

533
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: really have their own story which is just as valid

534
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: as my own.

535
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 1: I remember when the first King Crimson album came out

536
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy I could have been sixty nine, had a

537
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: gatefold cover, had a sort of a green to the cover,

538
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: and you know the first song some by Greg Lake

539
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: courd to the Crimson King. What was your experience discovering

540
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 1: King Crimson.

541
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: Very different than yours? In nineteen eighty I had played

542
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: on Robert I met Robert Fripp on Peter Gabriel's first

543
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 2: solo album in seventy six, when Peter left Genesis. By

544
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: the way, I did not know of Genesis when I

545
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: met Peter Gabriel and played on his album, and I

546
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: met Robert Fripp. We toured together with Peter, and then

547
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 2: Robert at some point after that asked me to play

548
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: on his album called Exposure. So I was very familiar

549
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: with his music, but I did not listen to King Crimson.

550
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: Didn't even know the band when Robert said, I'm thinking

551
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: of forming this other band, not King Crimson, but what

552
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: do you say you come to Let's just play together

553
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: and see how it works out. With Bill Rufford and

554
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: Adrian belou Later, maybe decades later, I found out that

555
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: really I was being auditioned and they had other bass

556
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: players come in also. But so I came into that

557
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: not knowing anything about King Crimson, not knowing none of

558
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: us knew that we would later name that combo King

559
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: Crimson because it seemed appropriate to Robert. So I had

560
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: no history at all. In fact, if I remember correctly,

561
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,479
Speaker 2: at that audition slash let's get together and play. They said, well,

562
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: let's play Red, and I said, well, I'm a few

563
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: bars something like I'm a few bars to me because

564
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,719
Speaker 2: I don't know it. And I was at that stage

565
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: of my youth pretty quick at learning stuff, so probably

566
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: they were impressed with how quickly I learned red. But

567
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: that first year or two of touring we did, we

568
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: steadfastly refused to do any Crimson classic material from before

569
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: that incarnation. Later, when we did some, that is when

570
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: I listened to King Crimson and that's when I learned that,

571
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: and that's when I was introduced to the iconic parts

572
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: of Greg Lake and John Wetton and became a fan

573
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: of them much later.

574
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: So tell me about the Bead Tour.

575
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: Okay, Adrian Blue had this idea I can't quite speak

576
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: for him, but quite a few years ago of doing

577
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: the music of the eighties of King Crimson and finding

578
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: not doing it with the King Crimson members but other guys. However,

579
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: he brought me on board. And it took years. You know,

580
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: the COVID came along, and when you have players who

581
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: are in different bands, their bands take precedence the schedule

582
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: of their bands and the tours. So it took quite

583
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: a while until we could finally zero in on September thirteenth,

584
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: September twelfth, I think twenty twenty four as the time

585
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: to start it. Steve I is going to play guitar,

586
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: and he's going to play something like the parts of

587
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: Robert Fripp, probably differently, I hope differently. But he's challenged

588
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 2: by that and quite quite well known that he's publicized

589
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: that he's practicing a lot to do that. And Danny Carey,

590
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: a wonderful drummer, the drummer and tool, has signed on

591
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: to do it, and myself, So I'm excited to be

592
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: revisiting that music, but also I think a little more

593
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: excited about hearing I haven't heard yet, but we haven't

594
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: hearsed yet where Steve I and Danny Carey will take it,

595
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: where in what ways it'll be different, And I will

596
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: be sure to join them in the adventure of taking

597
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: this great material in other places if that's what happens.

598
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, when Robert was still on tour, Adrian

599
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: was not in the act, and now you're going out

600
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: playing Robert's music, not that it wasn't collaborative with Adrian

601
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: sons Robert. Has anybody been in contact with Robert got

602
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: his take.

603
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: On this, Yes, not me. I wouldn't even have thought

604
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: of that. I am I'm the bass player. I just yeah,

605
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 2: I'll show up, I'll play bass. But yes, Adrian contact

606
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: in him. Robert is one hundred percent in favor of

607
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: the tour and he gave it. Robert gave it the name.

608
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: Why don't you call it the Beat tour? Beat is

609
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: the name of one of the albums we did, one

610
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 2: of the three albums we did in the eighties.

611
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: And what material will it actually will be all that material,

612
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: any new material, any material outside that decade when you

613
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: work together.

614
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: At this point, because we haven't been together in the

615
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: studio and we're close to going together, it'll just be

616
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: any day now. I don't know exactly, but Adrian sent

617
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: me a list of pretty much all of the music

618
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: of all those albums. We can't do all of that

619
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: in one show. We'll choose among those, and my hope

620
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: is that we will also vary it on different nights,

621
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: because I have the feeling a lot of fans will

622
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: be coming to more than one show. Would be nice

623
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: if they're not all exactly the same show.

624
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: Okay, who knew Steve I.

625
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: Adrian? So as many questions will that's taken me outside

626
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: my experience. I had not played with Steve. I still

627
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 2: have not played with Steve Vibe, but I'm going to

628
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: play with him sixty five shows in the next few months,

629
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: and that's going to be great. I'm looking forward to it.

630
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: I've heard him. He's great with Danny Carrey the drummer.

631
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: I have played with him a little bit because he

632
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: sat in with King Crimson for a few shows in

633
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: a multi drummer situation. But it's it's all going to

634
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: be very exciting, and it's all going to be for

635
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: as you can tell from my talking about it. It's

636
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: going to be classic material but a bit new, fresh

637
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: and wild, and we don't know what's going to happen,

638
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 2: and that's pretty exciting.

639
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: Okay, So you've been talking to Adrian about this or

640
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: agents working on it for years now it's finally happening.

641
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: Sixty five shows A lot of shows.

642
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: I did notice that.

643
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: And then you're talking about the economics or such. It's

644
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: not like playing arenas. You're playing smaller venues and you're

645
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: going on a bus. Are you saying I love this

646
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: music so much, I want to play it, or I

647
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: love hanging with these guys, or I'm not doing anything

648
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: else these three months. You now, how much of a

649
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: hurdle is it? Or do you kind of commit yourself

650
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: and then say, holy fuck? What did I get myself into?

651
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: All of that can happen? A tour like this has

652
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: to be booked way in advance, you know, at least

653
00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: a year in advance, so you have to get the

654
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: venues in the right size. And in the case of

655
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 2: this tour, sales were so good that they revised their

656
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 2: thoughts about what size venues and sometimes we were playing

657
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 2: the same area twice. That's all in the hands of management,

658
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: not me. But yes, I had to commit to it

659
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: one hundred percent about a year ago, and I wage,

660
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: as I always do when I'm a call to do

661
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: something musically, it sounded great. Maybe I'm trying to how

662
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 2: can I summarize digging deep into my personality in my

663
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: sense of what made my mouth water about it was

664
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 2: these other guys that are really great players that haven't

665
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: played with and so the two together the eighties music.

666
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: By the way, I didn't bother to stay playing with

667
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: Adrian Blue is great. I love it. Been doing it

668
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 2: a little every year for ever since the eighties. Can't

669
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: get enough of that. That's great, but the whole package

670
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: as a whole made my mouth water, made me want

671
00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: to do it musically. Then the typical musician thing, Okay,

672
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: we'll work that out, someone else will work it out.

673
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 2: I don't know, so yes, it could be. As you mentioned,

674
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: I'm on the bus thinking what did I get myself into,

675
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 2: because that's a lot of days on the bus. But

676
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: probably it'll be fine. I know they're really good guys,

677
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 2: and almost undoubtedly the music will will overcompensate for anything

678
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 2: that's less than perfect. When I played with Chuck Mangoni

679
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: and jazz in the sixties, when I was living in Rochester,

680
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: he had an expression of the kind of the eleventh

681
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 2: Commandment is thou shalt never really groove. It's kind of

682
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 2: jazz player's way of thinking about digging and touring because

683
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: there's so many things that can get in a way

684
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: of an ideal jazz performance where you really need to

685
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: be free to improvise the way you want. And that's

686
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: some groove not true in rock and these stories I

687
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 2: can groove, but yes, there are many things that can

688
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: make it less than ideal, and almost always the music

689
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: compensates for that.

690
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: Okay, there have been records that have actually literally been

691
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: made on the road, made in hotel rooms. Certain people

692
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 1: go back to the hotel room practice. Certainly Frip himself

693
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 1: does that. Oh yeah, to what degree do you find

694
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: being on the road and I realize every situation is different.

695
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: Is their camaraderie and contact with the other people on

696
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: the road and at times musical collaboration, experimentation all stage.

697
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, a lot of good times. I think in

698
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 2: my experience, the bands that don't get along great just

699
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 2: don't stay together long. So all the bands I've been

700
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: a long time, there's great camaraderie. There's a lot of

701
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 2: hanging out and a lot of joking. Even even King

702
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: Crimson is a very serious band, has been on stage

703
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: and the music is very intense. But even while we're

704
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: on stage, if you really could see that the little

705
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: communications among the guys that we're having fun and joking

706
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: with each other, even about our mistakes. Robert Robert, especially

707
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: Robert Fripp, who's used to seem very serious to audiences.

708
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 2: In the last few years they've on Facebook, they've seen

709
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: behind the other side of him, which is what I've

710
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: seen for years the kids around a lot. We'll get

711
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 2: off stage and he'll look at me and he'll say, yes,

712
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: when in doubt, play CE sharp because he'll have heard

713
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: that I came in when I was supposed to play

714
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: an E. I came in with a C sharp and

715
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: he doesn't rate me for it. He said, oh yeah,

716
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 2: I went in doubt play C sharp. And once I

717
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 2: got a note when I in the nineties, I got

718
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 2: a note under my door at a hotel from Robert saying,

719
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 2: you have the rare opportunity to lend me money. And

720
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: who signed Robert Fripp? I think I said saved that

721
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: it's one of the only things I have that he signed. Sorry,

722
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: I went off on that. To play together off stage

723
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 2: is something we just don't have the opportunity to do

724
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 2: very much well at all in the bands that I

725
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: tour with. I know some bands that set up a stage.

726
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: If they're playing an arena, they set up a stage.

727
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: Bon Jovi did this, This set up a stage backstage

728
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: to jam before the show, after the show, to have

729
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: fun and play other stuff. That's just not a possibility

730
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: in the tours I do. If it's a big one

731
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 2: like Peter Gabriel's, the crew immediately is on stage tearing

732
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: down the stage right the second after you stop. And yes,

733
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: you could go to if you had the energy, you

734
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: could go to a club somewhere in jam with other players.

735
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 2: And maybe I used to do that a little bit

736
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: a long long time ago, but not anymore.

737
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: So you have this summer camp. Did you go to

738
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: camp as a kid? I?

739
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: Oh, I forgot until you asked that I did. I

740
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: went to classical I was a classical player and I

741
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: went to one or two years at the University of

742
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: mass in Amherst, Mass. Yeah, and it was influential on me,

743
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: but only in a classical way, and later I stopped

744
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: playing classical. But it was kind of cool, very different

745
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 2: than this kind of camp with adults. I say adults,

746
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 2: but this year there was a eight year old drummer

747
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: who was amazing. Came with his parents.

748
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: Okay, you grew up in Brookline and outside of Boston.

749
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,479
Speaker 1: What'd your parents do for a living?

750
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 2: Wow, you've researched me a lot. I appreciate that.

751
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: Well, I spent a lot of time in Brookline. Anyway,

752
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: we really have a friend who grew up absolutely.

753
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: My mother was the head of the children's department at

754
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: a Boston public library, first at a branch, then then

755
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: at the main branch, and then the overall library. So

756
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: we read a lot. My brother and I had a

757
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: lot of children's books. My father was an engineer, a

758
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 2: radio engineer at first at WHDH, which later became also

759
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: a TV station, and I grew up visiting the station

760
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: a lot and seeing what radio is like behind the scenes.

761
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 2: That was fun. And they both my older brother, Pete

762
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 2: was a French horn player at first and then became

763
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: a pianist, and he went to Juilliard for classical and

764
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: I went to the Eastman School for classical. So my

765
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: parents did what they felt was the traditional thing of

766
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 2: educating us musically, first playing piano and then picking our

767
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: own instruments. And then they were kind of daunted when

768
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: first Pete and then I became professional musicians. That wasn't

769
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: what they had in mind at all, but that's the

770
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 2: way it went, and they were quite supportive of it.

771
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so when did you start piano lessons?

772
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: I don't remember that, good question. Let me think I

773
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 2: probably I was playing bass at twelve years old, so

774
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: probably from nine years old I played piano and then

775
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: I know this as an adult when my parents were

776
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: quite old, I asked them if they remembered if I

777
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 2: said anything about why I chose to play the bass,

778
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 2: because I don't know what I did. And they said, no,

779
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: you just said you liked it. They actually had asked

780
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: me that I liked the bass. And that sounds like

781
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 2: a pointless story, but think about how many years later

782
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: I'm seventy eight now and I still just like playing

783
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: the bass, and I just want to play good music.

784
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: So I'm glad I didn't think with that part of

785
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: my brain that had a plan, And I'm glad I

786
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: didn't say, well, I want to be this or I

787
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 2: want to do this. I wanted to play the bass,

788
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: and I'm very lucky that I am still doing that.

789
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: Well, you know, and a lot of Jewish families in

790
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: the era, they made you take piano lessons, and most people,

791
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: you know, had mixed feelings about that. When you started

792
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: with music, we're saying, oh, this is my thing. Oh

793
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: my parents are making me do this.

794
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: They had urged me to practice. What kid wants to practice, well,

795
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: one in a hundred kids wants to practice. I didn't

796
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: want to practice, but I did, and I liked it.

797
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 2: I liked being able to play better the piano, and

798
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 2: then once I was playing the bass, they didn't have

799
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 2: to ask me to practice. I just did practice. And

800
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: you're right, it was a tradition to educate it. And

801
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: before had I been born ten years earlier, the tradition

802
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: was to take up violin. I was kind of I

803
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 2: don't know why, but in the Eastern Europe that's what

804
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 2: you did. And I'm glad I didn't have to become

805
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: a violinist because it would have been ten years to

806
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: master it instead of or sorry, twenty years instead of

807
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: ten years the master of that instrument, and I wouldn't

808
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: be able to play rock and roll the way I do.

809
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: Okay, So you know, I'm a little younger than you,

810
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: and I remember hearing the show tunes and our parents

811
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: takings to young people's concerts. Prior to playing the piano.

812
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: Was there music in the house and what kind of

813
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: music was that.

814
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 2: I'm very much a product of my older brother three

815
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: years old, or the records that he got or the

816
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 2: records that I grew up with because he could afford them. Yeah,

817
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: my dad brought home music too. There was there was

818
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: a lot of music being played and we had. We

819
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 2: were pretty early to have a Hi Fi and and

820
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: even a TV that I think I remember my dad

821
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: building it out of components to have a TV in

822
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 2: the early fifties. So it's a musical household somewhat. And yeah,

823
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: plenty of culture in Boston and in Brookline. Take I

824
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 2: was taken to see concerts almost all well, there was

825
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: no rock and roll, but I was taken to classical

826
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: concerts and grew to love that music.

827
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't have any brothers. I have two sisters.

828
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: What's it like having an older brother? Did you always

829
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: worship him and get along? Did you fight what was

830
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: going on there?

831
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 2: In our case, we never fought. And I don't think

832
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 2: I worshiped Pete, but I just quietly followed him.

833
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: You know.

834
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: He learned at an early age to take all the

835
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 2: gigs because they might lead to something else. There might

836
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: be a really good player. He was a jazz player before.

837
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: I think of Pete as a jazz player, classically trained,

838
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 2: a jazz player who plays rock, and I think of

839
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 2: myself as a rock player who plays jazz. In that

840
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't really live the life, live the

841
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: base parts of jazz, and I hear that when I play,

842
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 2: I play it, I think pretty well, but not as

843
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: well as I would if that was my whole musical life.

844
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: But anyway, Yeah, I learned from him many things, but

845
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: including take the gig. You might meet a really good

846
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: drummer and then you'll get to play with him. Other

847
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: things like that and those. A few years ago we

848
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: decided to form a band for the first time, quite

849
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 2: only a few years ago, to form a band and

850
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: to play the style of music that he first listened to.

851
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 2: So we grew up with in the fifties, which was cool.

852
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: I guess you'd call it the cool jazz. And the

853
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: bass player Julius Watkins was the French horn player. That's

854
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: why Pete was getting those records because he was a

855
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: French horn player, and Oscar Peterford was the bass player,

856
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 2: great bass player. So really, in my later years I

857
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: realized that I grew up listening to Oscar Petterford, whose

858
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 2: choice of notes and whose taste and whose six think

859
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 2: solos were pretty exceptional, and I didn't think about it

860
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 2: at the time. It's only now that when I look

861
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: back and I think that in a deep way, I

862
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 2: tried to become that bass player. But playing rock, in

863
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: other words, trying to. I wasn't thinking I'll be like Oscar,

864
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 2: but I do try to find the right notes and

865
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 2: the right feel and the right sound, and not not

866
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 2: do any more than not be flashy necessarily unless it's

867
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 2: called for. And yeah, so I was greatly influenced by

868
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 2: my brother's records.

869
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: Okay, talking about you and your brother at a young age,

870
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: you go to school. What kind of student were you?

871
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 1: Did you have friends? Did you play sports? We always

872
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: one step remove what we you like.

873
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 2: Well, I'm never asked that I have to think a

874
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: minutecause it was a long time ago. I enjoyed school.

875
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: The Brookline Public schools were pretty good, so I got

876
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: a decent education, not as good as I wish I had,

877
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 2: but pretty good. And I was in a band, in

878
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 2: an orchestra and a chorus the whole time, as soon

879
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: as there was a chance to be in those, and

880
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: some of those did out of town concerts. So in

881
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 2: a way, I was on the road as a thirteen

882
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: year old a little bit, and that prepared me for

883
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: being on the road when I was in the music

884
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 2: school and college or university, and not prepared me for

885
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 2: being on the road even more it. There's a piece

886
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 2: on my new album called road Dogs, and it was

887
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: intended as an instrumental, and it wasn't instrumental, and I

888
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 2: just was singing along with it, and I went road

889
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: Dogs with that kind of voice of road Dogs, and

890
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 2: I decided, well, I'll leave that in there and I'll

891
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: write some other lyrics to fit that, because even though

892
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 2: that it wasn't intended to be about that, I and

893
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 2: the guys I work with are indeed road dogs.

894
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 1: So if I was growing up in Brooklyn in the fifties,

895
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 1: brookline excuse me in the fifties, say oh yeah, Tony,

896
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: he's the music guy.

897
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: I was, indeed one of the music guys I was.

898
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 2: When the Beatles came around, kids came up to me,

899
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: are they any good? Tony? I didn't know what to say,

900
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: because I, you know, i'd heard them, but I didn't

901
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 2: judge that about you know, like you know, I had

902
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: nothing to do with classical so I didn't judge. Later

903
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: I would have, you know, years later, I say they're

904
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: very good. Indeed, there there's more to them than just

905
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: a pop band. But I do remember being asked that,

906
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 2: and I was not the only person in that in

907
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 2: that UH world, you know who was spending his time

908
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: practicing in the in the band room, and I picked

909
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 2: up tuba in those years. I didn't have a tuba

910
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: at home, but it was sort of normal for for

911
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 2: a bass player to be a tuba player, and the

912
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: and the school, the high school had one. I had

913
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 2: a few of them for us to play, and I

914
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: actually formed a love for playing in concert bands, which

915
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 2: I carried with me later into UH into I think

916
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 2: I end. I'm trying to think. When I stopped playing

917
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: the tuba, they wouldn't let me play it at Eastman

918
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 2: at is where they wanted you to have only one

919
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: instrument that you that you focused on. But then when

920
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: I played Peter Gabriel's first album, I I talked to

921
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 2: him and let me play tuba on one piece and

922
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: subsequently on the road. So we had a tuba on

923
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 2: the road.

924
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: Okay. I heard from somebody who's a road guys were

925
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: from you work with you that you played the White

926
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: House in JFK's era.

927
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: Yes, what's to say about that? Oh? Yeah, that's right. Yes,

928
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 2: the Greater Boston Youth Symphony Orchestra took us on the road.

929
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 2: I was was it early in the early sixties. I'm

930
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 2: guessing sixty two, but I could look it up for sure.

931
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 2: And we played in two places, at Carnegie Hall in

932
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 2: New York and on the White House lawn President Kennedy.

933
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 2: Kennedy came out and gave a speech before the show,

934
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 2: saying that he was too busy to stay for it,

935
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: but that he promising he would keep his window open

936
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 2: from his study. I'm not sure he actually did that,

937
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: but somewhere I have a tape of the speech, and

938
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 2: it's it's times have change, because he really gave speeches

939
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 2: very well and eloquently, saying how precious it was to

940
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: have our youth educated in music. And that's not the

941
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: kind of thing you would lately you would hear from

942
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 2: the White House. I think, so we're pretty special.

943
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: Where were you and Kennedy was shot.

944
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: I was in high school and I was heading for

945
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: work at the library, Boston Public Library, where I worked

946
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 2: in the music department, doing whatever I could. Yeah, and

947
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: when John John Kennedy, when John Lennon was shot, I

948
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 2: was in my New York City apartment developing photos. That's

949
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 2: what I did all night because I didn't have a

950
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 2: darkroom that was dark during the day, so I'd stay

951
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 2: up late and the phone rang and it was I

952
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: can tell this story now without choking up, but for

953
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: many years I couldn't. It was a newspaper saying, not

954
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 2: that he had been killed, but it hadn't been shot

955
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 2: and was injured, and did I have a quote for them?

956
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 2: I don't remember. I think it was a Rochester newspaper,

957
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: and I was shocked and puzzled by how they had

958
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,919
Speaker 2: my phone number, and doubly shocked, and then I said

959
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 2: I don't know and hung up. And then another newspaper

960
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 2: called shortly afterward, was asking for a quote saying that

961
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: he had died. I, like everybody, I was traumatized by that,

962
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: and I think for about ten years after that, if

963
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: anyone asked me anything about the John Lennon sessions, I

964
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 2: just would say, that's not something I can talk about.

965
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,320
Speaker 2: And then I think I released a book called Beyond

966
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: the Bass Cleft, with short stories of different situations I've

967
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:23,800
Speaker 2: been in as a musician through my life, and it

968
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: had the John Lennon Yokohona sessions, and the editor said,

969
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: correctly to me, you really have to address this. You're

970
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: just kind of dodging the reality that everybody knows. And

971
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: that's when I finally, ten years later, came to emotionally

972
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: came to grips with it well.

973
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: Jack Douglas, producer of Double Fantasy, he said, you know,

974
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: the deal was, if anybody finds out the record's over,

975
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 1: totally a secret. How did you end up on Double Fantasy?

976
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 2: It was Jack who I assume it was Jack who

977
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 2: told John that I was a good bass player and

978
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 2: worth head having the John's first words to me where

979
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: they say they tell me you're good, just don't play

980
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: too many notes. And I smiled and laughed. I smiled

981
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 2: because that's such a New York in your face attitude,

982
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 2: which I was fine. I was a New Yorker at

983
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,439
Speaker 2: the time that I'm very comfortable with that, and I knew,

984
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 2: but he didn't know that I wouldn't play too many notes.

985
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: It's just not the kind of bass player I am.

986
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: And I kind of understood that he was directly addressing

987
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 2: the fact that somebody told him I'm good. That could

988
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 2: mean I'm a real flashy player who's going to do

989
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: just horrible things on his song. So I had a

990
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: smile and I said, don't worry, I won't play too

991
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 2: many notes, and we got along musically really great. We

992
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 2: got along fine in every way. But I could tell

993
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 2: he was very happy with the bass parts I played.

994
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 2: And that's a nice feeling. When John Lennon's happy, he

995
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 2: doesn't have to gush about it. But I could just

996
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: sense that he liked it a lot. There was something else,

997
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, secret sessions.

998
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

999
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: They told me not to tell anyone. I believe someone

1000
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: told me not to even tell my wife where I

1001
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: was working. I only lived across town and listen to this.

1002
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 2: The second day after I was told that, I took

1003
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 2: a taxi over from the East Side to the west Side.

1004
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: I believe it was a hit factory forty eighth Street

1005
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 2: between eighth and ninth, and I asked to get off on.

1006
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: I just said to the taxi, just take me to

1007
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 2: ninth and forty eighth and he said, oh, that's near

1008
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 2: where John Lennon's recording And I thought, yeah, secrets as

1009
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: the cab drive and I'm not even going to the studio.

1010
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 2: And the taxi driver knows he had heard it on

1011
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: the radio.

1012
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: By the way, that morning, were you starstruck when you

1013
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: met John Lennon.

1014
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 2: I can't say that. I was no I was pleased

1015
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: to be part of it. Maybe it's just not the

1016
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: way I'm made up that I get starstruck from people.

1017
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 2: And also I had worked with other famous musicians, so

1018
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 2: I think I just I haven't analyzed why it is.

1019
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 2: I didn't get starstruck, as you can tell. I just

1020
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: think I entered situations on a musical level, and that's

1021
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 2: about the music. And I hoped that I would like him,

1022
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: that he would be nice and likewise with Yoko, and

1023
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 2: that worked out fine. But in a way, it was

1024
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 2: the music that that it was all centered on to me,

1025
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 2: and that's just kind of the way I work.

1026
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: Well, you a lot of times they lay down the

1027
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: drums in the bass and you disappear. How long did

1028
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: you work on the Double Fantasy sessions and to what

1029
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: degree were the songs pre written or work down in

1030
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: the studio?

1031
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: They were the whole whole length of it was only

1032
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 2: two weeks, and then they made a second album out

1033
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: of outtakes that were Yeah, they weren't finished that In

1034
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,280
Speaker 2: the case of that album, we did the full rhythm

1035
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 2: track rhythm section together. There were no overdubs. You could

1036
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 2: fix a part if you made a mistake, but there

1037
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 2: wasn't much of that. John would simp lay his song

1038
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 2: and sing it to you, and I would think, goodness,

1039
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 2: there's there are thousands of bass players who could do

1040
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 2: a great job on this. How lucky am I that

1041
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 2: I'm the one who's here? And that was kind of

1042
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: the extent of all. Okay, Having put that thought aside,

1043
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 2: I just had the happy ride of hearing a new

1044
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 2: song and playing a wonderful song, and we alternated songs

1045
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 2: with Yoko's songs, would do John's, and Yoko would be

1046
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: in the control room with Sean, young Sean and kind

1047
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 2: of helping, just coordinate the control room with John. Then

1048
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 2: we would do a Yoko song and John would be

1049
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 2: the tea boy. He'd be in the control room take

1050
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 2: looking at Sean and bringing out tea for Yoko, which

1051
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 2: was sweet. Her songs were a lot more problematic to

1052
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 2: do because she doesn't play the instrument. She had had

1053
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 2: an arranger come in and do charts, but the charts

1054
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 2: weren't really didn't tell you much about how you should

1055
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 2: do it, so hers work became a a search to

1056
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 2: find the groove that she wanted, to find the tempo

1057
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 2: that would work, and to find where we're going with

1058
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 2: this piece, and then we would get that, and then

1059
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 2: we're back to John and all there. He placed this

1060
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 2: big guitar, he sings and it's all there for you.

1061
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: It couldn't be easier. So it was an interesting experience.

1062
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 2: None of it was difficult, but it was unusual, and

1063
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: that we alternated between two writers.

1064
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: And hey, are you ever starstruck with anybody, whether a musician, politician, scientist, whatever.

1065
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 2: Good question. I can't remember being start what I would

1066
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 2: call starstruck. No, it doesn't mean that I feel I'm

1067
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 2: equal to these these really special people. It's just kind

1068
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 2: of not not in my makeup so much.

1069
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: We've been doing this a long time. But if you

1070
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: go back seventies eighties when you were called for a session,

1071
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: did you ever feel somewhat uptight? You know, I don't

1072
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: want to make the exact equivalent stage fright, but it's

1073
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: sort of the same thing. You know, the band wrote

1074
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: a song. You know they've been on there at stage

1075
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 1: a million times with Ronnie Hawkins and Dylan, yet they're

1076
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,320
Speaker 1: still uptight when they hit the stage. When you'd be

1077
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: called to work with an act, would you say another day,

1078
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: I've got this or it would be party. You had

1079
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,359
Speaker 1: spilkiss say, well, you know, I got to get it right.

1080
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1081
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 2: I think I'm thinking of a couple times in my

1082
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: concert life that I was nervous. Once, when I was

1083
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 2: a kid, I played a tuba concerto with the high

1084
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 2: school band and I didn't a factor in that your

1085
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 2: mouth gets dry when you're nervous. And we did one

1086
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 2: away out of town concert and a piece I had

1087
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 2: played before. But we got to the cadenza and my

1088
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 2: mouth was just dry as a bone. I couldn't even

1089
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 2: play the tuba, let alone go to the high note.

1090
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 2: Excuse me, a high note on the tuba. And so

1091
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 2: I was very nervous, and it grew on itself as

1092
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 2: nervous as well will the more I realized, oh, I'm nervous,

1093
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 2: and that's making my mouth dry. So there was that,

1094
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 2: and then way many years later, I played with Paul

1095
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:59,280
Speaker 2: Simon Jimmy Carter's inauguration week. It was in a theater

1096
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 2: and full theater, and Jimmy Carter was at the front

1097
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 2: of the balcony with his wife and looking down and smiling,

1098
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 2: big famous smile and a lot of teeth, and I

1099
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 2: looked up and I'm behind Paul and I'm not the

1100
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 2: lead guy at all, and I thought, I'm nervous. This

1101
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 2: is this is really special, and I'm a little nervous.

1102
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: And I thought, that's great, that's pretty cool that I'm nervous.

1103
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 2: I thought this, and a few times I've been nervous

1104
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 2: since then, since the Oh, I just thought of another one.

1105
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 2: I'll borri you with. But a few times I've got nervous, I.

1106
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: Think bors What was the other time, Yeah, with.

1107
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 2: That same orchestra that played the White House when I

1108
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 2: was older, I was playing a concerto with them, the

1109
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 2: Kusavisky Bass Concerto at the Boston University Theater, and I

1110
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 2: wore cuff links a thing back then. I was dressed

1111
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 2: up and I wore cuff links, which I had never

1112
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 2: worn at a rehearsal. And the piece, I think is

1113
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: in B minor. But when there's an e, which happens

1114
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 2: a lot when you're in the KYB minor, my wrist

1115
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 2: was at the shoulder of the bass, shall I put

1116
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 2: it that way? And the cufflink when I did vibrato,

1117
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 2: the cufflink was banging against the shoulder of the bass,

1118
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 2: making a let's call. It a machine gun sound, much

1119
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 2: louder than what I was playing, much louder than the orchestra,

1120
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 2: and the audience couldn't help but be aware of that.

1121
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 2: And as I got nervous about it and about the

1122
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: upcoming ease the note e that I knew there were

1123
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 2: plenty of them coming, it got faster, as vibrato will

1124
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 2: do when you're nervous.

1125
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: So that.

1126
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: Was a great example to me of when I didn't

1127
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 2: embrace it, and it kind of got out of hand,

1128
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 2: and it was a dreadful performance for me, and I'm

1129
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 2: sure the audience was scratching their head about why I

1130
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 2: played the machine gun notes along with the concerto.

1131
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: Okay, so your brother is buying these jazz records. Rock

1132
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: starts sometime in the early fifties. You know, I turn

1133
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: a rocket eighty eight rock around the clock. Then comes Elvis.

1134
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: At what point did you become infected with rock?

1135
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 2: Interesting question? Not then? Not even in high school when

1136
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 2: the Beatle I mentioned the Beatles coming around around, I

1137
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 2: wasn't too interested. I listened a little bit, went to

1138
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 2: music school, started playing a little jazz, Still not interested

1139
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 2: in rock. I think I might have taken an ad

1140
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 2: out in Rochester when I was twenty looking for a

1141
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 2: rock band. I had never been in a rock band,

1142
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: and the Beatles had got more sophisticated, and I was

1143
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 2: kind of interested in it, So it really was. I think.

1144
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: I was out of school and went to New York

1145
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 2: City and was a session player when I started playing. Well,

1146
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 2: I did a lot of kinds of music as a

1147
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 2: studio player in New York, and I became kind of

1148
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 2: attached to the rock stuff and trying to get the

1149
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 2: right sound for rock and trying to change my sound

1150
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 2: something you never did in classical never did in jazz,

1151
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: but you could do with an electric bass. I never

1152
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: thought until now about the what's the first rock I

1153
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 2: listened to or enjoyed? But it was pretty late in

1154
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 2: my formative years.

1155
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: Okay, how about you. You're coming of age and Top

1156
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 1: forty and there was great Top forty radio in Boston.

1157
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 1: Were you even listening to it?

1158
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 2: No? No, I was immersed in classical music at that time.

1159
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: Okay, at the time, were you playing a double bass?

1160
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 1: And at what point did you play the electric bass?

1161
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I played double bass only, and we called it

1162
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,479
Speaker 2: double bass, and since then you call it spring bass

1163
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 2: or acoustic bass. And graduated high school, got into the

1164
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 2: Easton School of Music, played in the Rochester Philharmonic, and

1165
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 2: I was very lucky that Steve Gadd, a great drummer,

1166
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 2: was in school with me, was my classmate, and he

1167
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 2: didn't have any bass players who wanted to do gigs.

1168
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 2: We were all classical geeks, but I was a classical

1169
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 2: geek with a little bit of a streak of playing jazz.

1170
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 2: I had played a little jazz, and Steve somewhat. We

1171
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 2: began to work a lot with gap Maan Joni and

1172
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 2: then with Chuck Mangoni, and then with both of them

1173
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,439
Speaker 2: a lot, like I mean, two gigs a day, six

1174
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 2: and a half hours a day, playing a lot, and

1175
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 2: he sort of mentored me in a quiet way, letting

1176
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 2: me learn how to play the feel of jazz, which

1177
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 2: I really wasn't good at at all. I was a

1178
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: classical guy, very interesting, and we put the time. We

1179
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 2: put the beat in a different place in jazz, or

1180
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 2: many different places, but a different place than classical, which

1181
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: just puts it right smack in the middle of where

1182
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 2: it could be. And yeah, so that was an education

1183
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 2: for me. And then soon after a few years after that,

1184
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 2: when I started playing rock, and when I came to

1185
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 2: New York, I had to adjust that to playing on

1186
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 2: the beat or behind the beat to play rock.

1187
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 1: Okay, going to the Eastman's School of Music in Rochester.

1188
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 1: Your older brother had gone to Juilliard. Was there any

1189
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 1: doubt that you would go to music college? Why not

1190
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 1: that it's not a great place, but why Rochester.

1191
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 2: I don't really remember why that school. But I had

1192
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 2: never had doubts. Once I was in high school, I

1193
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 2: had no doubt that I was going to play bass

1194
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 2: in whatever way I could making a living for it

1195
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 2: would from it would be a bonus. But that wasn't

1196
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 2: in my thoughts the way it isn't in any sixteen

1197
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 2: year old thoughts. I knew I was going to play bass,

1198
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 2: and that's what I did. And probably I seem to

1199
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 2: remember applying to a few schools. I didn't really I

1200
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 2: didn't apply to Juilliard. I could have, but I didn't

1201
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 2: because my brother had gone there, and I thought I'll

1202
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: go off in my own direction. And maybe the Eastman

1203
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 2: School was a very good school for sure, and maybe

1204
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 2: the yes says I think back. They accepted me kind

1205
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 2: of early, and they said, if you let us know

1206
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 2: right away, you can come here and you'll get a scholarship.

1207
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 2: Whereas if I started looking into other schools. I think

1208
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 2: I applied to one in London, the Royal Royal Academy

1209
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 2: or something like that, but I never heard back from them,

1210
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 2: and I accepted the Eastman offer.

1211
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: Okay, another dumb question. Double bass, acoustic bass, whatever referring

1212
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: to it, has no frets. How do you decide and

1213
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 1: learn where to put your fingers and out of play?

1214
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 2: Wow? Well, I think my first teacher said this is

1215
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 2: ten years. It's going to take you ten years, but

1216
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 2: be glad you don't play the violin that will take

1217
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 2: twenty years. You learn it by practicing your hand position

1218
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 2: and putting it in the right hand, sorry, and putting

1219
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 2: it in the right place, and you practice a lot,

1220
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 2: a great deal. It's way harder than having threats. And

1221
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 2: the day that I switched to an instrument with frets

1222
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 2: was an interesting day for me because I missed having

1223
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 2: no frets. And later I found what's called a fretless bass,

1224
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 2: an electric bass that's fretless, and was very comfortable with that.

1225
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 2: I think it's more interesting to find bass players or

1226
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 2: guitar players who learned with frets and then make the

1227
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 2: switch to that fretless base. That must be very hard.

1228
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 1: Okay, you go to Rochester for six hours away from Boston.

1229
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 1: It's a cosmopolitan city, but kind of in the middle

1230
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 1: of nowhere. Good experience, bad experience.

1231
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 2: Well, I love the musical scene in Rochester. I was

1232
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 2: too young to know what the scene is in Boston. Frankly,

1233
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 2: there was the Berkeley School, but it was not even

1234
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 2: a legitimate school yet when I was there, And there

1235
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 2: were jazz clubs, but I couldn't get in them as

1236
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 2: a kid. So when I went to Rochester, it's really

1237
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 2: a mecca of really very good players, the cats of

1238
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 2: jazz players I'm talking about. There is a cultural affinity

1239
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 2: for orchestra also, of course, because of George Eastman and

1240
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 2: the Eastman School of Music. But I liked hanging out

1241
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 2: with those jazz players and I learned a lot from them.

1242
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 2: And it was intimidating, yes, being a a kid and

1243
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 2: a new player to jazz and going to clubs and

1244
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 2: trying to sit in when you're not really sure what

1245
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 2: the songs are and things like that. So I went

1246
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 2: through that. An interesting thing that happened. I couldn't hear

1247
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 2: myself particularly with the acoustic bass with the double bass,

1248
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 2: and so I got an electric one. Ampeg made one

1249
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 2: called the Baby Bass. Maybe they still make it, I

1250
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 2: don't know, but it didn't sound like much, but it

1251
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 2: was you've got an app and you could hear it.

1252
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 2: And I wasn't loving that. When I went to hear

1253
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 2: a band in Rochester that came into town. Jackie and

1254
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 2: Roy was the jazz band and Andy Musson was the

1255
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 2: bass player, and he was playing a Fender bass, which

1256
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 2: I had not heard of. Can you believe that I

1257
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 2: had never heard of a Fender base? And the kid

1258
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 2: I was, I want to to go up to Andy

1259
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 2: after the show. I know him now. He lives in

1260
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 2: the New York area like I do. I guess he's

1261
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 2: always lived in the New York area. Yeah, And I said,

1262
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 2: what's that you're playing? Where do I get one of those?

1263
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 2: And this is interesting? He told me, Okay, go to

1264
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 2: New York, go to Dan R. Strong's music guitar store

1265
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,439
Speaker 2: in the village. But he said, this is important. Don't

1266
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 2: get a new one, get a used one. Those are

1267
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 2: the words he used because the expression vintage guitar or

1268
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 2: vintage bass didn't exist at the time, a used one

1269
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 2: was cheaper than a new one, and I did go

1270
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 2: to New York exactly. I took the train downs exactly

1271
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 2: he said to do, and the prices were exactly what

1272
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 2: he said. A new one at that time, we're talking

1273
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 2: mid sixties, a new Fender base was about two hundred

1274
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 2: twenty dollars, and a used one, by which I mean

1275
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 2: a nineteen fifties had their precision, it was one hundred

1276
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 2: eighty dollars. It was cheaper, so I got one. I

1277
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 2: brought it back on the train to Rochester and I

1278
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 2: played that only that bass for many, many years. Interesting,

1279
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 2: how the times have changed.

1280
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 1: You still have that bass?

1281
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 2: I do not. I lost it in the fire. Sadly,

1282
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:53,919
Speaker 2: I lost a lot of my basses in a fire

1283
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,919
Speaker 2: in my barn in the mid nineties. By that time,

1284
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 2: to be fair, I had stopped playing it, or I

1285
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 2: would have had with me on the road where I was.

1286
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 2: But still I wish I had it. Of course, I've

1287
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 2: had a lot of basses in my life, and I

1288
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 2: really came to appreciate and value them much more after

1289
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 2: I had lost some in that fire, and I switched

1290
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 2: in the late seventies early eighties, I switched to music

1291
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:22,439
Speaker 2: Man bases designed by the way by Leo Fender, which

1292
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 2: were similar and similar in feel, but had more versatility

1293
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 2: and had more of the sound that we wanted at

1294
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 2: that time. We wanted more lows, more low end, and

1295
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 2: maybe sometimes more highs on rock records. Then the Fender

1296
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 2: precision could give me. The engineer could compensate, but it

1297
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 2: seemed like a better deal to walk in with the

1298
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 2: sound that's going to be appropriate for the piece. Then.

1299
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 2: Ever since, I've primarily played a music Man bassis.

1300
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,919
Speaker 1: So what caused the fire and what did you lose

1301
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 1: in the fire? Oh?

1302
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 2: What caused the fire was it became winter and I

1303
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 2: had foolishly left papers on top of the heater in

1304
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 2: my garage. It was a barn kind of garage, and

1305
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:08,360
Speaker 2: so the whole place started on fire, and I lost

1306
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 2: all my bases and amps. I have forgotten what but

1307
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 2: a lot of not a lot, six let's say, six

1308
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 2: really good basses and four or five amps. It's a

1309
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 2: shame to lose them. I have one bass which I

1310
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 2: could show you, but it won't come across an audio

1311
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 2: which survived it. It got half burnt. It was a

1312
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 2: base that was cream colored, light cream colored, and it

1313
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 2: turned amber in color, and part of it turned to charcoal,

1314
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 2: and I sent it very carefully back to Ernie Ball

1315
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 2: music Man with a note with a note that was

1316
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 2: it out of warranty, could fix it was a joking note,

1317
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,479
Speaker 2: and they injected epoxy into the burnt part. And interestingly,

1318
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,720
Speaker 2: I still play that bass a lot. I don't take

1319
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 2: it on the road because it would break if it

1320
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 2: fell down. But it lost all its moisture, so it

1321
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 2: changed and it's a little more thumpy and a little

1322
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 2: less sustained in a way that's really cool and really

1323
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 2: has its own I love basses that have their own sound,

1324
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 2: really most of them do. And part of part of

1325
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 2: my joy in this album bringing it down to the

1326
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 2: bass was was expressing how much I like the particular

1327
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 2: bass on each track. I wrote a little essay or

1328
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,640
Speaker 2: poem about each bass, and I took a portrait of it,

1329
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 2: not in a studio, but out in the in the world,

1330
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 2: in a place that seemed appropriate. And it was important

1331
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 2: to me with this album to have a booklet that

1332
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 2: had room for all of those photos of the basses.

1333
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 1: Okay, you know the guitars, you know, let's assume it's

1334
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 1: a new guitar. Guitars have them set up. They might

1335
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 1: change the pickups, the actions, et cetera. If you were

1336
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 1: to get a new bass from the fact factory, maybe

1337
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: in this case they make it to your specs, but

1338
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:58,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. But generally speaking, you get a new bass,

1339
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 1: what would you change to make it the way you

1340
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:01,600
Speaker 1: like it?

1341
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 2: Good question is this has to do with the way

1342
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 2: the person is, the musician is here's the way I am.

1343
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,679
Speaker 2: If it sounds great, then I get it. I want

1344
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 2: that bass and I like it, and I don't change

1345
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,599
Speaker 2: it at all. If it doesn't sound great, I don't

1346
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 2: really want that bass. I don't want to. Well, that's

1347
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 2: kind of the end of the story. I don't want it.

1348
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 2: I never was one who's who has the expertise to

1349
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:27,599
Speaker 2: make a bass that doesn't sound good sound good. I mean,

1350
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:29,719
Speaker 2: I can play the bass and change it a little

1351
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:31,600
Speaker 2: bit with how I play it, But I'm not a

1352
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 2: bass redesigner, and I don't want to be. Why should I,

1353
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:37,400
Speaker 2: Because there's basses that sound great when I pick them up.

1354
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 2: In fact, I gotta love what the basses give to me.

1355
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 2: I was very aware of this. Is I did this

1356
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 2: album so some basses just have a rock sound. You

1357
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:52,240
Speaker 2: just play half of the rock sound. Songs are in

1358
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,719
Speaker 2: the kivs right, So sometimes I'm just playing eighth notes

1359
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 2: on an E and it sounds really cool and really great,

1360
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 2: and I really appreciate you appreciate the bass gave that

1361
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 2: to me. I didn't. It was not my fingers doing that.

1362
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 2: It's just a gift from my friend, that bass. And

1363
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:08,720
Speaker 2: you can bet that I play that bass a lot

1364
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:11,360
Speaker 2: if it has that to give me. In a similar way,

1365
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 2: I play the NS electric upright. Need Steinberger designed that

1366
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 2: quite a while ago, and it sounds like very much

1367
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,080
Speaker 2: like a double what we call it a double bass,

1368
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 2: but not exactly like it, but it has such a big,

1369
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 2: full round sound that if it's a ballot. This happened

1370
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 2: years ago. Peter Gabriel had a ballad and I took

1371
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:31,640
Speaker 2: out that bass and I played a low G, just

1372
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:34,720
Speaker 2: a G a long note, and Peter was like, oh, yes,

1373
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 2: that's what I want, and the engineer was, oh, that's great.

1374
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 2: If there was a producer, he was and there they're saying, well, man, Tony,

1375
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 2: you're great. And I am very happily taking credit for

1376
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:49,639
Speaker 2: this instrument that gave me that. And by the way,

1377
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 2: ever since, whenever Peter does a ballad, he wants that

1378
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 2: bass on it, and I'm more than happy to do that,

1379
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:58,560
Speaker 2: to be the guy that plays that bass. So I

1380
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:03,680
Speaker 2: really appreciate how instruments are each different. And luckily, through

1381
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 2: the year, you know, one way or another, through the years,

1382
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:08,439
Speaker 2: I've got a bunch of them. I could possibly get

1383
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 2: more in the future, but I have enough basses. Each

1384
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 2: sounds its own way in a very subtle way. The

1385
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:16,920
Speaker 2: bass players would understand and would hear the difference, and

1386
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 2: they give me what I need, and I try to

1387
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 2: return the favor by making good music on them.

1388
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 1: How many basses do you presently own?

1389
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly, but I recently did something I

1390
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 2: had never done. I assembled them all in one room

1391
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 2: and took a picture and made a jigsaw puzzle lot

1392
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 2: of it. In the title of the jigsaw puzzle is

1393
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 2: too many basses question mark. I don't know why I

1394
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 2: did that. I was just moved to do that. It was,

1395
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:42,880
Speaker 2: frankly a lot of work, and I think I had

1396
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:48,720
Speaker 2: about about sixteen or eighteen you know why, I don't

1397
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:51,160
Speaker 2: know exactly, because it wasn't enough to fill up the room.

1398
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 2: And my good friend Scott Potito is a bass player

1399
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 2: and a bass collector, and I borrowed twenty of his basses.

1400
01:12:57,560 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 2: So in the end I had a room full of bases.

1401
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 2: I forgot to exactly account how many were mine.

1402
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 1: So let's say, for whatever reason you want a new bass,

1403
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 1: music Man will just send you something and you'll say

1404
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 1: yes or no. Well, you go to the factory and

1405
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:15,479
Speaker 1: play five. How does it work?

1406
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:18,599
Speaker 2: Well, in the old days I would go to the factory,

1407
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 2: but not anymore. Music man comes out. They're very Ernie

1408
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 2: Ball music may. When Ernie Ball bought the music Man

1409
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:30,719
Speaker 2: Company from Leo Fender and Company, they didn't It's unusual.

1410
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,280
Speaker 2: They didn't change it and lose what was special about it.

1411
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 2: They made tiny changes that made it more versatile. And

1412
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 2: so through the years, I'm the guy who was playing

1413
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:41,639
Speaker 2: them and endorsing them before that, and I can appreciate

1414
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 2: that they never lost that. I don't know what, and

1415
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:47,720
Speaker 2: I could never figure out what, but that magic that

1416
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:50,240
Speaker 2: was special about that base. So once in a while,

1417
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:54,719
Speaker 2: when they make an improvement, would they consider improvement? They'll

1418
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 2: ask me if I want one, and sometimes I don't,

1419
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 2: And sometimes if they'll say, well, this is really you're

1420
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 2: going to like this, Frank. You know what this happened

1421
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 2: about four years ago. They redesigned all of the elements

1422
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 2: to make it lighter weight, the five string, and they

1423
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:14,240
Speaker 2: told me about it and I said, that's great, but

1424
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 2: I don't need it lighter weight, and they said, it's

1425
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 2: really a lot lighter weight. And at some point I

1426
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 2: don't remember where, I got to pick one up and

1427
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:23,560
Speaker 2: it was like, wow, it's a lot lighter but it

1428
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:26,640
Speaker 2: sounds the same and it hasn't lost anything. And I

1429
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:29,880
Speaker 2: decided to try one out. And I then realized that

1430
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:33,680
Speaker 2: the two hours I talked about the show, that's not

1431
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 2: a problem. But the six hours of rehearsing I do

1432
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:39,640
Speaker 2: every day in some periods, boy, it's great having a

1433
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:43,720
Speaker 2: light instrument. So once again I'm grateful to them for

1434
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,479
Speaker 2: convincing me and talking me into trying at this lighter

1435
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:50,559
Speaker 2: weight base, which became my default base to use because

1436
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,840
Speaker 2: if only because it's so friendly to rehearse with.

1437
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:59,640
Speaker 1: So you're not changing the pickups, what about strings?

1438
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 2: No, I use the strings to come on it. I'm

1439
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 2: lazy about changing them. I'm not a technical guy. A

1440
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:08,280
Speaker 2: when I'm lucky and it's a big enough tour that

1441
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 2: I have a bass tech. His name is Mikaelai Russolto.

1442
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 2: He's an Italian guy that comes out with me for

1443
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 2: many years, since about nineteen ninety when it's that kind

1444
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:20,240
Speaker 2: of band, and glad to have him. And I believe

1445
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 2: he changes the strings and doesn't tell me. Probably he's

1446
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:26,760
Speaker 2: swearing back there saying, oh, he hasn't changed this since

1447
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:28,880
Speaker 2: the last tour, but I don't feel the need to

1448
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 2: do it when I'm recording. Yeah, I leave the bass

1449
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 2: set up the way it is. Let me say, it's

1450
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:36,840
Speaker 2: obvious to plat bass players and guitar players. You can

1451
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 2: change the sound a lot with your fingers, with how

1452
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:42,519
Speaker 2: you play, where you pluck the string, and other things

1453
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 2: in the tone controls. So it's not like I never

1454
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:47,880
Speaker 2: changed the sound of the bass. What I do a

1455
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:51,599
Speaker 2: lot is put dampers under the strings. Music Man's original

1456
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:54,599
Speaker 2: basses had dampers built in with a screw that were

1457
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 2: under the strings, and that was I think a Leo

1458
01:15:57,280 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 2: Fender idea, and then they took him off for a

1459
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:00,720
Speaker 2: bunch of years and then they brought it back. But

1460
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:04,000
Speaker 2: I always carry dampening material like foam rubber and things

1461
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 2: like that on the road with me.

1462
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 1: Did you finish school at Eastman? I did.

1463
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 2: I have a bachelor's degree that I haven't found a

1464
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,719
Speaker 2: way to apply yet. But it's only been forty or fifty.

1465
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 1: Years, so you graduate from college. What's the vision, right,

1466
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 1: I'm not a vision guy.

1467
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,560
Speaker 2: I wish I was. I had the same ethic that

1468
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:38,320
Speaker 2: I had when I left high school, which is, oh,

1469
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:39,720
Speaker 2: I'm going to play the bass and I'm going to

1470
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 2: meet some good players and play some good music. But

1471
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 2: now I'm playing jazz. I had a curious path after

1472
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 2: I left Rochester. The Buddy Rich band needed a bass player,

1473
01:16:51,439 --> 01:16:53,800
Speaker 2: and the manager of that band knew me and asked

1474
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 2: if I wanted to do it, which in those days

1475
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 2: meant leaving you don't have an apartment and go on

1476
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:00,840
Speaker 2: the road with this is permanently on the road. So

1477
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:02,640
Speaker 2: I took a deep breath and I thought, that's for me.

1478
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:04,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to do it. And I got rid of

1479
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 2: my apartment and my furniture and all that stuff, and

1480
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 2: I said goodbye to everybody in Rochester, drove in my

1481
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 2: station wagon where I had my little bit of clothing

1482
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:17,200
Speaker 2: and things, to Boston, where I found out that I

1483
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 2: showed up at the gig and they said that Buddy

1484
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:21,880
Speaker 2: had changed his mind and talked the bass player into

1485
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:25,160
Speaker 2: staying and I had no gig, and that was not

1486
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 2: my happiest night, but it was sort of yeah, you

1487
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:31,120
Speaker 2: want to be in the music business, okay. So then

1488
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:35,280
Speaker 2: I gave some quick thought to a going back to Rochester,

1489
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:37,719
Speaker 2: where I had said goodbye and got rid of everything

1490
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:41,439
Speaker 2: I had b staying with my folks in Boston being

1491
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 2: a I don't know what a twenty four to twenty

1492
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 2: five year old guy going back home or c turning

1493
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:48,960
Speaker 2: around and going to New York City. And I chose, see,

1494
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:52,120
Speaker 2: I might never have had the gumption to go to

1495
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:56,000
Speaker 2: the Big Pond, but I did and stayed with a friend,

1496
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 2: a school friend, because I couldn't afford a place in

1497
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:01,479
Speaker 2: New York. And fast forward a year year and a

1498
01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:05,599
Speaker 2: half and I was doing okay as a studio musician

1499
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 2: and the Buddy Rich came to town. The Buddy Rich

1500
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 2: band came to town and needed a bass player for

1501
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:14,719
Speaker 2: two or three nights in a club and then recording

1502
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:17,920
Speaker 2: the album The Roar of seventy four. So I know

1503
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 2: this now we're talking nineteen seventy four, and they called

1504
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:23,240
Speaker 2: me to do that, and I did that, and each

1505
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:26,640
Speaker 2: night after the show, Buddy would tell the manager, Oh,

1506
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:28,760
Speaker 2: this guy's okay, ask him if I'll go on the

1507
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:30,920
Speaker 2: road with us, and each night I said no thanks.

1508
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 2: I tried that. Buddy had no memory of that incident,

1509
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,599
Speaker 2: and I wasn't about to tell him. So I got

1510
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:39,240
Speaker 2: to play with I got to play in that band.

1511
01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 2: But my leaving Rochester was under strange circumstances. I might

1512
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:46,200
Speaker 2: never have let left. I don't know. So I'm not

1513
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:49,200
Speaker 2: the guy that you questioned about who has the vision.

1514
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:50,760
Speaker 2: Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go

1515
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 2: to New York be a studio musician, and then I'm

1516
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:54,639
Speaker 2: going to meet Peter Gabriel and go on the road.

1517
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 2: And I'm going to be a road musician for the

1518
01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 2: rest of my life.

1519
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:02,120
Speaker 1: So that two years what first, you stayed with your friend,

1520
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 1: what happens in those two years?

1521
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 2: Stayed with a lot of friends. And then later my

1522
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:09,599
Speaker 2: brother lived in Danbury, Connecticut, and I stayed with him

1523
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:12,040
Speaker 2: because you can't just show up in New York and

1524
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:16,439
Speaker 2: gig and make enough money. And gradually I met the

1525
01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 2: let's see, I joined I joined a few bands. One

1526
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:23,840
Speaker 2: interesting one was called AH the Attack of the Green

1527
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:26,880
Speaker 2: Slime Beast. Perhaps you never heard of that band because

1528
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:30,559
Speaker 2: we only ever did one gig that was with three

1529
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 2: members of the Mothers of Invention. So it was a

1530
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 2: very creative and interesting band. But as bands will do,

1531
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,680
Speaker 2: we rehearsed a lot and at somebody's cabin in Greenwood Lake,

1532
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 2: and then we did the one gig, interesting gig by

1533
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:49,680
Speaker 2: the way, where Meredith Monks Dance Troupe was doing improvised

1534
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:53,960
Speaker 2: dance while we improvised on stage, and they had their

1535
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:58,120
Speaker 2: bodies painted red and they were wearing kind of diaper

1536
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 2: kind of things. And one of the those dancers, who

1537
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:06,639
Speaker 2: was a young aspiring actor named Danny DeVito. So yeah,

1538
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 2: later when I saw him, when he became well known

1539
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 2: and I saw him on TV, I said, I know

1540
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:13,840
Speaker 2: that guy from that one gig we did in Philadelphia

1541
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 2: without AH the Attack of the Green Slime Beast. Wonderful times.

1542
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:20,080
Speaker 2: So I was in a few bands like that, and

1543
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:23,920
Speaker 2: I fell into what we called rehearsal bands that would

1544
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 2: go into a studio at eleven at night when the

1545
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 2: studio had no more sessions going on, and play into

1546
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:34,040
Speaker 2: the night, mostly to give horn players a chance to play,

1547
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:36,599
Speaker 2: to really play. The successful horn players in New York

1548
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:40,120
Speaker 2: would do sessions all day, jingles and pop songs. Kind

1549
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:41,800
Speaker 2: of want to play that. They want to play jazz,

1550
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:45,280
Speaker 2: so that's why they went into music. And from being

1551
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:48,640
Speaker 2: in a rehearsal band called White Elephant, I met a

1552
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:50,800
Speaker 2: lot of great players, did a couple of albums of that,

1553
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:55,439
Speaker 2: and sooner or later those later. It took a while,

1554
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:57,160
Speaker 2: but some of those players that I knew from the

1555
01:20:57,200 --> 01:20:59,280
Speaker 2: band got me on sessions and I met other people

1556
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:03,040
Speaker 2: and came what you call the studio player in those days.

1557
01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:06,000
Speaker 2: There was such a thing later that that profession kind

1558
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:08,920
Speaker 2: of went away because there weren't enough sessions being done

1559
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:11,600
Speaker 2: in New York to provide a living to somebody. And

1560
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:14,880
Speaker 2: I liked studio playing and I liked being that, but

1561
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:18,600
Speaker 2: I felt unfulfilled. And when I had the chance to

1562
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,000
Speaker 2: go on the road, which meant not being a session player,

1563
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:21,680
Speaker 2: I jumped at that.

1564
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:28,559
Speaker 1: Okay, In LA in that era, there were the a players,

1565
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:32,360
Speaker 1: usually one person who might be getting double or triple scale,

1566
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 1: doing two or three sessions a day, and then there

1567
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:37,599
Speaker 1: were a couple of other people, but really there were

1568
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:39,760
Speaker 1: you know, one or two people who played when you

1569
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 1: were playing sessions as a bass player, at what level

1570
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 1: were you and who were the other bass players, if any?

1571
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 2: New York were were very different seeing in LA and

1572
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:53,160
Speaker 2: most of the records that I knew about were not

1573
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 2: those the ones we've seen in the movie the famous

1574
01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:00,080
Speaker 2: this is going to be a hit record. Some of

1575
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:01,560
Speaker 2: them were that way, but most of them were not.

1576
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:04,679
Speaker 2: They were just more just a huge volume of records

1577
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 2: being made and coming out, and they were the players

1578
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:11,560
Speaker 2: were equal. Nobody was getting No one that I know

1579
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 2: was getting double scale for anything. And in fact, we

1580
01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:18,960
Speaker 2: all had the same answering service. Would you call It

1581
01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:21,640
Speaker 2: was called radio registry who just had a list of

1582
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:25,280
Speaker 2: bass players in The contractor would give him maybe eight

1583
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:27,400
Speaker 2: names of bass players, he didn't care who showed up,

1584
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:32,720
Speaker 2: and they would they the answering company would call, go

1585
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:34,880
Speaker 2: down the list, and if you didn't answer the phone,

1586
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:36,759
Speaker 2: they would go to And there were no cell phones,

1587
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:39,479
Speaker 2: by the way, There were phones in every studio and

1588
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 2: sometimes a direct phone to this radio registry, and if

1589
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 2: you didn't answer, they just greet the second guy. So

1590
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:47,800
Speaker 2: the contractor and the arranger didn't really know who's going

1591
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:50,000
Speaker 2: to come to this session. So it was really very

1592
01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:53,559
Speaker 2: different than the much more refined thing that had going

1593
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:55,960
Speaker 2: on in LA, where they really cared and they really

1594
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:58,639
Speaker 2: had people who were going to construct, hopefully a hit record,

1595
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:01,960
Speaker 2: whereas we New York, at least in the circles that

1596
01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:05,000
Speaker 2: I was in, we were reading charts and doing just

1597
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 2: regular records and sometimes film. There's also a lot of

1598
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:12,400
Speaker 2: film in LA, but not so much in New York.

1599
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:15,639
Speaker 1: Okay, So you said you were doing that, and then

1600
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:18,400
Speaker 1: you got invited to go on the road. What was

1601
01:23:18,439 --> 01:23:20,040
Speaker 1: the first act you went on the road with.

1602
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:24,519
Speaker 2: I was going spending weekends on the road with Gary Burton,

1603
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:28,519
Speaker 2: a jazz wonderful jazz, a vibraphone player, and with Herbie Man.

1604
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:32,439
Speaker 2: Herbie for years had different band every weekend, but I

1605
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:36,240
Speaker 2: played with him for years, and mostly he intentionally did

1606
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:38,920
Speaker 2: weekend shows. We'd go out for the weekend and let

1607
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:40,599
Speaker 2: the guys get back to New York to do their

1608
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:43,560
Speaker 2: sessions during the week. That wasn't so important to me,

1609
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 2: but it was okay, So I did that probably for

1610
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:49,720
Speaker 2: a few years. I also played with This is really

1611
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:53,400
Speaker 2: digging into my memory. I don't think about this very

1612
01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:56,439
Speaker 2: often Mary Travers of Peter, Paul and Mary was a

1613
01:23:56,479 --> 01:23:59,559
Speaker 2: solo act, and later I did the same with Judy

1614
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 2: Call a lot of weekends, maybe a few others that

1615
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:06,240
Speaker 2: I'm forgetting, So weekends were spent out on the road.

1616
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:11,240
Speaker 2: But the big change for me was when producer Bob

1617
01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:16,400
Speaker 2: Ezrin asked me to play at this session for a

1618
01:24:16,479 --> 01:24:18,680
Speaker 2: young guy, Peter Gabriel, whom I didn't know, and I

1619
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,400
Speaker 2: went up to Toronto and met Peter and met Robert

1620
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:23,880
Speaker 2: Fripp and I played on his album. And when he

1621
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 2: asked me to go on the road, that wasn't for

1622
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:28,240
Speaker 2: a weekend. That was for a real tour, a rock tour,

1623
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 2: and I was all one hundred percent into doing that

1624
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 2: because playing this music live is why I went into music.

1625
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:37,320
Speaker 2: I don't mind recording, but I love playing live and

1626
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:40,400
Speaker 2: having the audience be part of the whole thing that's

1627
01:24:40,439 --> 01:24:43,400
Speaker 2: going on. So that was the beginning of the end

1628
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 2: of my career as a studio player, but happily beginning

1629
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:50,320
Speaker 2: of my career as a road player.

1630
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:54,840
Speaker 1: How'd you know Israel? I don't know how I.

1631
01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:57,519
Speaker 2: First know him. That was not the first album he

1632
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:01,200
Speaker 2: asked me to play on. I'll ask him how we met,

1633
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 2: I don't remember. I had played at that time on

1634
01:25:03,479 --> 01:25:06,080
Speaker 2: Lou Reed's Berlin album and on a number of Alice

1635
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:09,240
Speaker 2: Cooper records. Those are the only ones I remember doing

1636
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:12,680
Speaker 2: with Bob, and he just he thought of me. Bless him.

1637
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:15,439
Speaker 2: He thought, this studio guy, he's a rock player. He

1638
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:18,000
Speaker 2: wants to be playing distorted bass and that stuff. And

1639
01:25:18,680 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 2: he was right, and he heard that, and I happily

1640
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:21,800
Speaker 2: went along.

1641
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:26,000
Speaker 1: At what point did you develop your look of the

1642
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:27,800
Speaker 1: mustache and the shaved head.

1643
01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:36,320
Speaker 2: I'm squeamish about the expression developed my look because that

1644
01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:39,240
Speaker 2: wasn't the way it came about, But I guess it's sort.

1645
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:40,120
Speaker 1: Of how did it come up?

1646
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, one summer it was hot, it was really hot,

1647
01:25:43,400 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 2: and I said, heck with this, I'm cutting off my hair.

1648
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:49,960
Speaker 2: And I did it regularly that summer, and for a

1649
01:25:50,040 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 2: few years, as soon as it got cold at Chili

1650
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:54,920
Speaker 2: in September, I would grow both hair and beard through

1651
01:25:54,960 --> 01:25:57,400
Speaker 2: the winter. I was certainly not concerned with how I looked.

1652
01:25:57,600 --> 01:26:01,320
Speaker 2: I looked pretty pretty strange both ways. At that time,

1653
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 2: which is a long time ago, it was unusual to

1654
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:07,679
Speaker 2: be bald. I can describe it in this way. People

1655
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 2: of people on the street who just couldn't help but

1656
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:14,920
Speaker 2: say something, would say, hey, you'll referring to yul Brenner.

1657
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:19,479
Speaker 2: Later they would say hey, Kojak. Not much later, maybe

1658
01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:23,040
Speaker 2: you're half six months a year. And again these are

1659
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:26,320
Speaker 2: people I don't care, but people without a filter. And

1660
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:28,800
Speaker 2: that's fine. You just have to say something to a

1661
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:32,479
Speaker 2: bald guy. Kids would point, you know, kids, oh look, daddy,

1662
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:34,719
Speaker 2: that guy got no hair. So it was very unusual.

1663
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:37,920
Speaker 2: It was interesting that I was that way. Then maybe

1664
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:40,840
Speaker 2: there were some other rock players without hair. I don't

1665
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:43,920
Speaker 2: really know, but not that many years later it became

1666
01:26:44,240 --> 01:26:48,599
Speaker 2: quite common because guys, you know, for a number of reasons,

1667
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:50,200
Speaker 2: but one of them is guys realizing they have no

1668
01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:52,080
Speaker 2: more hair on top, might as well cut the whole

1669
01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 2: thing off. And and for me, after a couple of

1670
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 2: years of the beard, uh, I would say a little

1671
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:01,439
Speaker 2: bit of vanity crept in. And so many people told me, hey,

1672
01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 2: you look good without the hair, and hey, you don't

1673
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:06,599
Speaker 2: look so great with the beard and the semi hair,

1674
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:08,840
Speaker 2: and I just kept shaving. So that was it. I

1675
01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:10,720
Speaker 2: don't really remember where the mustache came in.

1676
01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:15,360
Speaker 1: Do you ever change your look now? Do you ever

1677
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:18,280
Speaker 1: say hey, I'm sick of this. I want to go incognitum,

1678
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:20,640
Speaker 1: let my hair grow, shave my mustache.

1679
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:22,680
Speaker 2: I can't do it so much I used to. I

1680
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:25,519
Speaker 2: used to change be way into changing the look with

1681
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:29,040
Speaker 2: different hair lengths. I've had shoulder length hair. I never

1682
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:30,479
Speaker 2: had a lot of hair on top. But I had

1683
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 2: shoulder length hair and full beard. But it can't change

1684
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:36,800
Speaker 2: it much. I think the I think once in a

1685
01:27:36,880 --> 01:27:39,240
Speaker 2: while I'll grow a little more of a beard or

1686
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:41,599
Speaker 2: what do you call it, a vandyke, But pretty much

1687
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:43,320
Speaker 2: I don't. And it's not because I wouldn't like to.

1688
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:45,519
Speaker 2: It's just a I don't have the materials anymore. Through

1689
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:47,519
Speaker 2: the hair is not growing, and I will say that

1690
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:50,200
Speaker 2: I die my mustache, of course, because it would be

1691
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:52,000
Speaker 2: almost invisible if I didn't.

1692
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:59,760
Speaker 1: Okay, few technical questions. Traditional p bass four strings? Why

1693
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:02,759
Speaker 1: four y five y six?

1694
01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:09,360
Speaker 2: Wow? I think the four decision was made maybe in

1695
01:28:09,400 --> 01:28:12,519
Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds. My dogs have entered the house. By

1696
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:15,559
Speaker 2: the way, I think the decision for four strings was made.

1697
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:18,960
Speaker 2: What we call the upright bass was developed. I'm not

1698
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:21,799
Speaker 2: sure the history of that. I only played four strings.

1699
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,120
Speaker 2: I guess in classical we had an extender for the

1700
01:28:26,280 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 2: low east ring that would bring it down to a

1701
01:28:28,360 --> 01:28:31,360
Speaker 2: low sea, a little device, mechanical device on the top

1702
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:35,080
Speaker 2: that you could have your base adjusted to have that,

1703
01:28:35,479 --> 01:28:37,840
Speaker 2: and it was necessary for some symphonies, but not for

1704
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:41,439
Speaker 2: most of them. And then when I moved to Fender base,

1705
01:28:41,760 --> 01:28:45,120
Speaker 2: it only had four strings. Later, much later, when music banned,

1706
01:28:45,160 --> 01:28:48,000
Speaker 2: there were five strings, but I wasn't interested in trying them.

1707
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:50,680
Speaker 2: It's funny when I think about myself, I guess I'm

1708
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:54,360
Speaker 2: a combination of being very open to new ideas like

1709
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:56,439
Speaker 2: the Chapman stick and the funk fingers and things that

1710
01:28:56,520 --> 01:28:59,600
Speaker 2: are really weird, and in a way being not adventurous

1711
01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:02,000
Speaker 2: at all and not trying a five string based because

1712
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:04,840
Speaker 2: I just wasn't interested. But when Ernie Ball music man

1713
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:08,320
Speaker 2: said we got a five string, and I think, I said, well,

1714
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:11,040
Speaker 2: does the E sound the same? Because the other five

1715
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:12,960
Speaker 2: strings I've played, the E doesn't sound the same. And

1716
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:15,920
Speaker 2: the E is my life, that's where I live, that's

1717
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:17,880
Speaker 2: what I want. I want that E to have that power.

1718
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:20,160
Speaker 2: And they said it does and it did, so boom.

1719
01:29:20,200 --> 01:29:22,719
Speaker 2: I played five string and pretty much only five string

1720
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:26,320
Speaker 2: for quite a while. Of course, at my home studio

1721
01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:28,400
Speaker 2: I have the four strings, which have their own sound,

1722
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:30,680
Speaker 2: and I use them plenty. And by the way, on

1723
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:33,000
Speaker 2: the upcoming beat the tour, I will do what I

1724
01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:35,040
Speaker 2: did in the eighties. I'll play that bass with the

1725
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:39,000
Speaker 2: four strings and in the same bass, with the same sound.

1726
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:42,840
Speaker 2: It'll be great. As for other the six strings I've

1727
01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:45,840
Speaker 2: never tried to this day, and I don't know why

1728
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:48,160
Speaker 2: I haven't tried it. It just hasn't fallen into my hands.

1729
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:51,280
Speaker 2: I do play the Chapman sticks, which mine has twelve strings,

1730
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:54,640
Speaker 2: so I can handle more strings. But on all of

1731
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:57,599
Speaker 2: these really what I'm looking for is to be able

1732
01:29:57,680 --> 01:30:02,080
Speaker 2: to do a versatile and worthwhile and meaningful bass sound

1733
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 2: on the low notes. And if it's got high stuff,

1734
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:07,080
Speaker 2: that's good, that's a bonus. But it's those low notes

1735
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:08,880
Speaker 2: that matter to me. When I first heard of the

1736
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:11,840
Speaker 2: Chaplain stick, when I first tried it, I found it

1737
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 2: very different than the bass and really suitable for the

1738
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:17,600
Speaker 2: progressive rock stuff I was doing, the odd of the

1739
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:20,920
Speaker 2: ordinary of stuff I was doing in the early eighties

1740
01:30:20,960 --> 01:30:23,680
Speaker 2: with King Crimson, and also down low. It had not

1741
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:26,000
Speaker 2: the big, fat sound that I always wanted, and not

1742
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:29,799
Speaker 2: the powerful sound, but a lot of articulation so suddenly

1743
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 2: I could play very fast, very low, and I thought, well,

1744
01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 2: there were some certain situations where I'm going to want that,

1745
01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 2: and those situations are going to bring out this instrument,

1746
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:42,760
Speaker 2: but only in those For years, I only brought it

1747
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 2: out in those situations.

1748
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:55,439
Speaker 1: Okay, I certainly remember going to see shows all of

1749
01:30:55,479 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 1: a sudden the Chapman stick appearing to me. It seemed

1750
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:01,920
Speaker 1: like it's sort of heat and it's not as popular now.

1751
01:31:02,800 --> 01:31:05,439
Speaker 1: For those who don't know, tell us exactly what the

1752
01:31:05,600 --> 01:31:06,560
Speaker 1: Chapman stick is.

1753
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 2: Yes, Emma Chapman in about I'm guessing nineteen seventy five

1754
01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:14,479
Speaker 2: invented it and it's or finished inventing his instrument and

1755
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:17,200
Speaker 2: released it. That's designed to be played with a hammer

1756
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:19,960
Speaker 2: on or a tapping technique. So you don't fret the

1757
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:22,120
Speaker 2: note the way you do on a bass or guitar

1758
01:31:22,439 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 2: with your left hand and plunk plucket. You don't do that.

1759
01:31:25,360 --> 01:31:28,080
Speaker 2: You just touch the fret with your left hand or

1760
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:30,639
Speaker 2: your right hand and the note comes out, which involves,

1761
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 2: of course the strings being set up very low action,

1762
01:31:33,840 --> 01:31:36,160
Speaker 2: so you don't have to really hammer on. I call

1763
01:31:36,240 --> 01:31:39,559
Speaker 2: that hammeron playing, but it isn't. You can just touch

1764
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:42,880
Speaker 2: it and amme it at the same time developed an

1765
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:47,160
Speaker 2: instrument vertical, not at the same angle as a guitar

1766
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 2: that hooks in your belt hook sorry, it hooks into

1767
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:53,519
Speaker 2: your belt so you can play it in a vertical way.

1768
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:57,599
Speaker 2: And his instrument had five bass strings and five guitar

1769
01:31:57,720 --> 01:32:01,120
Speaker 2: strings on the same neck with a stereo output. So

1770
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:04,599
Speaker 2: for the first time I had heard of of any instrument,

1771
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:07,120
Speaker 2: it had two outputs that are completely two different instruments.

1772
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:11,200
Speaker 2: And if that wasn't unusual enough, the hammer on and

1773
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:15,639
Speaker 2: the stereo output, Emmett decided to have the guitar strings

1774
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 2: be tuned in forth and the bass strings tuned in

1775
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:22,200
Speaker 2: fifths and backwards. So you have a very unusual instrument

1776
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:26,560
Speaker 2: outside of the norm. And it's kind of easy to

1777
01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:28,160
Speaker 2: pick in a way. It's easy to pick it up

1778
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:30,000
Speaker 2: and play it because you don't have to have that

1779
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:32,679
Speaker 2: fretting and plucking. You just touch a note and there's

1780
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:34,760
Speaker 2: your note put in a way for some especially for

1781
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:36,680
Speaker 2: some of us, it's kind of hard to get used to.

1782
01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:40,600
Speaker 2: So I jumped on it early for the reason that

1783
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:42,880
Speaker 2: I used to play the I still do play the

1784
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:45,760
Speaker 2: bass with a hammer on technique, and I thought I

1785
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:48,040
Speaker 2: got to try this instrument. It's designed to be played

1786
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:51,640
Speaker 2: that way and by the way. Eventually there became a

1787
01:32:51,720 --> 01:32:54,120
Speaker 2: twelve string instrument and that's what I play now. And

1788
01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:58,320
Speaker 2: a few years ago, quite a few ten fifteen years ago,

1789
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:02,120
Speaker 2: I decided to form a group called stick Men, where

1790
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:04,400
Speaker 2: we only played the Chapman stick, two of us and

1791
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:09,479
Speaker 2: a drummer, Pat Macelado. And then after a few years

1792
01:33:10,160 --> 01:33:12,600
Speaker 2: the other stick players replaced by Marcus reuter Or, a

1793
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:15,960
Speaker 2: great touch guitar player, who he played the Chapman stick,

1794
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:18,719
Speaker 2: and then he developed his own instrument called the touch guitar,

1795
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:21,120
Speaker 2: which is played the same way but has kind of

1796
01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:22,240
Speaker 2: different elements to it.

1797
01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:28,360
Speaker 1: So my perception is is it's not as popular as

1798
01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:31,800
Speaker 1: it was in the seventies. Is that correct or incorrect.

1799
01:33:32,479 --> 01:33:35,760
Speaker 2: I'm not the guy who would know. I could write

1800
01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:39,600
Speaker 2: an uncomfortable email to stick enterprises and ask them, but

1801
01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:41,800
Speaker 2: I have no idea. I know, once in a while

1802
01:33:42,320 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 2: I hear other players, and I'm always impressed with the

1803
01:33:46,360 --> 01:33:49,080
Speaker 2: things they do that I couldn't do, And maybe if

1804
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:52,000
Speaker 2: I practiced, I could. It's kind of a Wild West

1805
01:33:52,439 --> 01:33:55,680
Speaker 2: instrument in that you can develop your own technique, you

1806
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:58,639
Speaker 2: can have your hands wherever you want. So players are

1807
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 2: always finding things to do that the rest of us

1808
01:34:01,080 --> 01:34:03,679
Speaker 2: didn't think of. And that's a wild thing about the instrument.

1809
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:05,599
Speaker 2: But how many people are buying it and how many

1810
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:07,800
Speaker 2: people are playing it is really not something I know about.

1811
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:13,360
Speaker 1: So when would you use it with someone else's music?

1812
01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:19,200
Speaker 2: Easy to talk about, Peter. I go show up at

1813
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:21,640
Speaker 2: Peter gabriel session, which I did about a year and

1814
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:25,800
Speaker 2: a half ago for what became the Io album, And

1815
01:34:25,920 --> 01:34:28,280
Speaker 2: I have in my trunk of basses a fretless and

1816
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:31,479
Speaker 2: that NS electric upright, and a five string and a

1817
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:33,680
Speaker 2: four string and a vintage four string, and I have

1818
01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:36,519
Speaker 2: the Chapman stick. And he plays the piece, and I

1819
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:42,160
Speaker 2: don't think the musical part of my brain becomes quickly

1820
01:34:42,240 --> 01:34:45,040
Speaker 2: attached to whatever he's playing and singing, whether he's doing

1821
01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:47,080
Speaker 2: it live or playing a recording of what he's got

1822
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:50,439
Speaker 2: down so far, And I become a fan of that

1823
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:53,719
Speaker 2: piece of music. I'm saying with Peter Gabriel it would

1824
01:34:53,720 --> 01:34:56,519
Speaker 2: be the same somebody else. I become a fan of that,

1825
01:34:56,640 --> 01:34:59,599
Speaker 2: and I kind of start fashioning in my musical brain

1826
01:35:00,800 --> 01:35:03,240
Speaker 2: what sound might be good for it, and if it

1827
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:03,640
Speaker 2: could be.

1828
01:35:04,040 --> 01:35:04,719
Speaker 1: Very low.

1829
01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:08,200
Speaker 2: Okay, the stick. Hey, the stick does that. Or it

1830
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:10,439
Speaker 2: could be chords way up high in a way that

1831
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:12,360
Speaker 2: the stick does well. Or it could be a big

1832
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:16,200
Speaker 2: fat sound that the NS electric upright gives me. Or

1833
01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:18,920
Speaker 2: it could be a heavy rock sound that my music

1834
01:35:19,000 --> 01:35:21,920
Speaker 2: man four string might be good. So I don't think

1835
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:24,640
Speaker 2: about it, but I kind of get a sense of

1836
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:27,679
Speaker 2: what sound would be good, and then I look around

1837
01:35:27,720 --> 01:35:29,920
Speaker 2: at the instruments I have, and maybe I think, well,

1838
01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:32,479
Speaker 2: this bass would be good, but only if I put

1839
01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:35,439
Speaker 2: foam rubber under the strings or something like that to

1840
01:35:35,560 --> 01:35:38,320
Speaker 2: make it more dampened than shorter notes. And that's how

1841
01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:41,880
Speaker 2: I choose what to play. And by the way, Peter

1842
01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:44,600
Speaker 2: might hear it and say I think I'd like the

1843
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 2: upright on that, and case I make a quick switch.

1844
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:50,960
Speaker 2: But it's a musical decision. Sorry for the long answer

1845
01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:55,320
Speaker 2: to your short question. Not an intellectual decision or not

1846
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:57,760
Speaker 2: based on history. I just kind of go by what

1847
01:35:57,920 --> 01:35:59,880
Speaker 2: it feels like would be the right instrument for that

1848
01:36:00,200 --> 01:36:01,080
Speaker 2: particular piece.

1849
01:36:02,240 --> 01:36:04,680
Speaker 1: What about Jock Opustorius.

1850
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:07,560
Speaker 2: Obviously a great player For those who don't know, he

1851
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:13,679
Speaker 2: was maybe the most famously great jazz fretless bass player

1852
01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:16,200
Speaker 2: of all time. I met him a couple of times,

1853
01:36:17,120 --> 01:36:20,639
Speaker 2: and my brother played with him a lot. I'll tell

1854
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:24,920
Speaker 2: you an interesting thing about his playing and mine intersecting

1855
01:36:25,080 --> 01:36:27,519
Speaker 2: in a funny way. I heard about him when he

1856
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:29,240
Speaker 2: came out with a solo album and I heard it

1857
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:32,640
Speaker 2: and I thought it was great, but not really kind of.

1858
01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:38,640
Speaker 2: It was very technical and almost phenomenally technical, and I

1859
01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:40,680
Speaker 2: wasn't interested in that. It was pretty musical, and I

1860
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:45,160
Speaker 2: liked that, okay. And then two things happened. I found

1861
01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:48,560
Speaker 2: myself on a session. I don't usually play solos, but

1862
01:36:48,600 --> 01:36:50,240
Speaker 2: I was on a session one day in a studio

1863
01:36:51,200 --> 01:36:52,680
Speaker 2: and there was a bass solo and I said, you

1864
01:36:52,720 --> 01:36:55,000
Speaker 2: know what, I'll overdub it. So the other guys went

1865
01:36:55,040 --> 01:36:58,160
Speaker 2: out and into the control room and I'm playing a

1866
01:36:58,360 --> 01:37:01,640
Speaker 2: rare jazz bass and I see Jacko coming in to

1867
01:37:01,720 --> 01:37:04,680
Speaker 2: the control horrum and I thought, you couldn't script this

1868
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:08,160
Speaker 2: better than this. You know, not a nightmare, but this

1869
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:10,920
Speaker 2: is really awkward. I can barely play this file. And

1870
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:13,000
Speaker 2: now Jacko was listening to me. So there was that.

1871
01:37:13,680 --> 01:37:18,799
Speaker 2: But also when he played on Joni Mitchell's Hegira record,

1872
01:37:19,439 --> 01:37:22,400
Speaker 2: that was a whole different thing for me. His playing

1873
01:37:22,560 --> 01:37:27,400
Speaker 2: was so sublime that I didn't want to hear myself

1874
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:30,759
Speaker 2: play the Fretless anymore. So I put away the Fretless

1875
01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:33,080
Speaker 2: and for ten years I didn't play the Fretless at all.

1876
01:37:33,439 --> 01:37:36,439
Speaker 2: I thought I'll never play it again, because, yeah, I

1877
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:40,800
Speaker 2: think I already expressed it well, but I couldn't. He

1878
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:43,639
Speaker 2: was playing the way I dreamed I might be able

1879
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:45,599
Speaker 2: to play. And I don't mean fast, just the right

1880
01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:48,560
Speaker 2: notes and the right sound and impeccably in tune and

1881
01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:52,960
Speaker 2: phrasing that's just doesn't get in the way of the piece,

1882
01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:57,040
Speaker 2: but on its own, the phrasing is magical. So I

1883
01:37:57,360 --> 01:38:00,360
Speaker 2: just couldn't hear myself doing that. And yeah, after a

1884
01:38:00,439 --> 01:38:03,360
Speaker 2: whole long time, someone asked me to play Fretless and

1885
01:38:03,439 --> 01:38:06,360
Speaker 2: I had, frankly to tell you the truth. I had forgotten.

1886
01:38:07,000 --> 01:38:11,519
Speaker 2: I've forgotten how I felt hearing Hajira, and so I said, okay,

1887
01:38:11,520 --> 01:38:13,560
Speaker 2: I'll try. I'll play Fretless again. And I've later a

1888
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:16,400
Speaker 2: great deal since, and I've got over that hump of

1889
01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:21,120
Speaker 2: not comparing myself in any way to Jacko was playing any.

1890
01:38:21,040 --> 01:38:24,559
Speaker 1: Other bass players who you look up to or think

1891
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:28,960
Speaker 1: are great and either have recognition or deserve recognition.

1892
01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:33,880
Speaker 2: I think names don't come to mind. But I am

1893
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:38,559
Speaker 2: influenced by a whole lot of bass players, a whole lot.

1894
01:38:38,640 --> 01:38:41,280
Speaker 2: And from the beginning I mentioned Oscar Petiford back when

1895
01:38:41,280 --> 01:38:44,280
Speaker 2: I was ten years old, So I in a way,

1896
01:38:44,320 --> 01:38:47,040
Speaker 2: I think we bass players, not just me. When we

1897
01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:50,599
Speaker 2: listen to any music, we're sort of aware on some level.

1898
01:38:50,640 --> 01:38:52,880
Speaker 2: We're aware of what the bass player is doing and

1899
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:55,400
Speaker 2: if it works, and if it doesn't work. It could

1900
01:38:55,400 --> 01:38:58,439
Speaker 2: even be even some record I'm not talking about live

1901
01:38:59,560 --> 01:39:04,679
Speaker 2: or in the here's something and jeez, names aren't coming

1902
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:09,040
Speaker 2: to mind, but the base is just doing exactly the

1903
01:39:09,160 --> 01:39:11,040
Speaker 2: right thing, and I'll think, oh yeah, and I'll try

1904
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:15,639
Speaker 2: and obviously I'll try and incorporate that into my musical

1905
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:18,560
Speaker 2: sense of what might work, or I'll here in some

1906
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:21,120
Speaker 2: way it could be sonically that the bass and drums

1907
01:39:21,160 --> 01:39:23,760
Speaker 2: don't work together or something like that, and I'll think, well,

1908
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:25,919
Speaker 2: I don't want to do that. So I'm being influenced

1909
01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:27,599
Speaker 2: all the time, and I think a lot of bass

1910
01:39:27,640 --> 01:39:30,479
Speaker 2: players are by a lot of players, And the only

1911
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:32,800
Speaker 2: thing that's changed in the last few years is the

1912
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:36,040
Speaker 2: young players who are there on YouTube for us to

1913
01:39:36,120 --> 01:39:38,640
Speaker 2: hear doing things that I could never do. And I

1914
01:39:38,760 --> 01:39:42,479
Speaker 2: will never do also influence me. And I decided in

1915
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:45,080
Speaker 2: that lockdown year, when I had time to I wasn't

1916
01:39:45,120 --> 01:39:46,920
Speaker 2: doing so many records, and I had time to listen

1917
01:39:46,960 --> 01:39:49,639
Speaker 2: a lot. I decided to look at them as more

1918
01:39:49,720 --> 01:39:53,639
Speaker 2: my teachers than where do I fit into what's being

1919
01:39:53,680 --> 01:39:56,599
Speaker 2: going on now? And in some cases I would if

1920
01:39:56,640 --> 01:39:59,040
Speaker 2: it's a video and I can see the person's finger

1921
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:02,560
Speaker 2: and it's a woman player, and that's great. Now I

1922
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:06,000
Speaker 2: can see how they held their wrists or something like that,

1923
01:40:06,200 --> 01:40:10,120
Speaker 2: or their fingers the palm of their hand to dampen

1924
01:40:10,160 --> 01:40:11,560
Speaker 2: the notes, and I'll try and learn from that.

1925
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:15,200
Speaker 1: Okay, you work with Peter Gabriel on the Flour solo album,

1926
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:17,679
Speaker 1: you meet Frip, you go on the road with Frip.

1927
01:40:18,080 --> 01:40:21,160
Speaker 1: It's his act, not yours. That two ends.

1928
01:40:21,320 --> 01:40:25,960
Speaker 2: Then what you mean the first Peter Gabriel tour, No,

1929
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:27,120
Speaker 2: the way you said it.

1930
01:40:27,280 --> 01:40:33,040
Speaker 1: Okay, After you cut the Peter Gabriel album, the one

1931
01:40:33,120 --> 01:40:36,600
Speaker 1: with Salisbury Hill, et cetera, do you then go on

1932
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:38,439
Speaker 1: the road with Peter or then go on the road

1933
01:40:38,520 --> 01:40:39,000
Speaker 1: with Frip.

1934
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:43,200
Speaker 2: Both. Peter took that album on the road and Robert

1935
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:46,040
Speaker 2: was one of the two guitar players Steve Hunter was

1936
01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:49,720
Speaker 2: the other and Robert, in his inimitable way, he was

1937
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:52,040
Speaker 2: in the in the wings. He didn't want to be

1938
01:40:52,120 --> 01:40:55,280
Speaker 2: seen and he didn't want Peter to introduce him as

1939
01:40:55,360 --> 01:40:59,040
Speaker 2: Robert Fripp. Dusty Rhodes on guitar was what Peter would

1940
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:01,240
Speaker 2: say every night, and the whole audience knew that it

1941
01:41:01,360 --> 01:41:04,400
Speaker 2: was Robert and they were looking in the wings anyway. Yeah,

1942
01:41:04,439 --> 01:41:08,080
Speaker 2: so we did a wonderful tour, not an ideal tour.

1943
01:41:08,160 --> 01:41:11,000
Speaker 2: There was a problem with the sound that the band

1944
01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:13,920
Speaker 2: was just too loud on stage and there was no

1945
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:16,360
Speaker 2: way the sound engineer could get us to turn down.

1946
01:41:17,200 --> 01:41:19,880
Speaker 2: I say us, but frankly, it wasn't me. It was

1947
01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:23,679
Speaker 2: the guitars and drums. It was too loud for the venues.

1948
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:27,000
Speaker 2: So it was less than an ideal tour. But Peter

1949
01:41:27,160 --> 01:41:31,599
Speaker 2: was fantastic, and you know, he pretty quickly went into

1950
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:35,040
Speaker 2: starting thinking about the next album and the next tour,

1951
01:41:35,160 --> 01:41:37,800
Speaker 2: and I was one hundred percent in for everything he's

1952
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:38,479
Speaker 2: done since then.

1953
01:41:39,479 --> 01:41:41,599
Speaker 1: Well, I guess my question is, you know a lot

1954
01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:45,799
Speaker 1: of these are not traditional bands, and you make a record,

1955
01:41:46,320 --> 01:41:50,160
Speaker 1: you go on the road, and then you got nothing booked.

1956
01:41:50,640 --> 01:41:53,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I know somebody played on Elton's you Know

1957
01:41:53,360 --> 01:41:55,640
Speaker 1: Final tour. As soon as that tour ended, he was

1958
01:41:55,680 --> 01:42:00,519
Speaker 1: out with somebody else. Okay, so once she played that

1959
01:42:00,720 --> 01:42:04,640
Speaker 1: first album, the first tour has just been endless. Or

1960
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:07,040
Speaker 1: you ever said, where's my next gig?

1961
01:42:08,520 --> 01:42:12,720
Speaker 2: Well, freelance anything. We all say when's my next gig?

1962
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:15,360
Speaker 2: Where is it? It happens to us all at any

1963
01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:19,920
Speaker 2: stage of success, unless you're well, I think everybody, there's

1964
01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:23,000
Speaker 2: times when you don't have enough gigs. This is why

1965
01:42:23,080 --> 01:42:25,600
Speaker 2: my brother taught me, take all the gigs. You're going

1966
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:27,920
Speaker 2: to need them. One day, you're gonna want them. I

1967
01:42:28,000 --> 01:42:30,720
Speaker 2: think I don't remember exactly what happened the year that

1968
01:42:30,800 --> 01:42:33,880
Speaker 2: Peter Gabriel's first tour ended, and I knew I wanted

1969
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:36,000
Speaker 2: to do more of that, but I was able to

1970
01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:39,200
Speaker 2: do some stuff, and I think maybe it took me

1971
01:42:39,280 --> 01:42:41,840
Speaker 2: a decade or two to realize that it would be

1972
01:42:41,880 --> 01:42:44,600
Speaker 2: good to have my own music coming out so that

1973
01:42:44,680 --> 01:42:47,120
Speaker 2: I could form my own band and in a small way,

1974
01:42:47,400 --> 01:42:50,599
Speaker 2: to something to fill in the times between the big tours.

1975
01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:53,360
Speaker 2: And that's what we have all learned that I was

1976
01:42:53,400 --> 01:42:55,840
Speaker 2: slow to figure that out, and I've done that ever since.

1977
01:42:55,880 --> 01:42:58,439
Speaker 2: So eleven brothers the jazz band with my brother. We

1978
01:42:58,520 --> 01:43:00,799
Speaker 2: can book that on short notice and go do some shows.

1979
01:43:01,120 --> 01:43:05,559
Speaker 2: Stickman can group book at rock clubs moderately, short notice,

1980
01:43:05,560 --> 01:43:08,600
Speaker 2: maybe six months eight months out. Who're a band like

1981
01:43:08,680 --> 01:43:10,360
Speaker 2: King Crimson needs to be over a year out.

1982
01:43:11,760 --> 01:43:15,920
Speaker 1: Okay, do you have a manager or do you do

1983
01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:16,959
Speaker 1: this all yourself?

1984
01:43:18,920 --> 01:43:20,920
Speaker 2: I don't have a manager, and I don't really do

1985
01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:25,120
Speaker 2: it myself. I get these calls I'm laughing. Just the

1986
01:43:25,479 --> 01:43:27,160
Speaker 2: idea of having a manager, Yeah, that would be a

1987
01:43:27,200 --> 01:43:29,560
Speaker 2: good idea, But I'm not that kind of player. I

1988
01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:33,400
Speaker 2: just and myself, and people regularly find me and ask

1989
01:43:33,520 --> 01:43:36,320
Speaker 2: me to do play on their records and record from

1990
01:43:36,360 --> 01:43:38,519
Speaker 2: my home studio where I'm talking to you from, and

1991
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:43,120
Speaker 2: that's really great. I missed it in the early two

1992
01:43:43,160 --> 01:43:46,000
Speaker 2: thousands when I started doing that and less and less

1993
01:43:46,000 --> 01:43:49,280
Speaker 2: studio playing in person in the studio. I was unhappy

1994
01:43:49,280 --> 01:43:51,160
Speaker 2: about it, of course, because I missed the experience of

1995
01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:53,720
Speaker 2: all being together in the studio. But now that it's

1996
01:43:54,120 --> 01:43:57,120
Speaker 2: become ninety percent more than ninety percent of the sessions

1997
01:43:57,160 --> 01:44:00,120
Speaker 2: everybody does, I've kind of learned tricks and ways to

1998
01:44:00,160 --> 01:44:02,640
Speaker 2: deal with it and get good music out of it.

1999
01:44:03,000 --> 01:44:04,840
Speaker 2: And I really enjoy that. When I'm home, I get

2000
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:08,080
Speaker 2: to do that. Similarly, if I play on someone's album,

2001
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:10,120
Speaker 2: I play on a lot of albums, and if they

2002
01:44:10,160 --> 01:44:12,960
Speaker 2: ask me to tour with them, if the music is

2003
01:44:13,080 --> 01:44:16,200
Speaker 2: right and if I'm free, then then I can do

2004
01:44:16,360 --> 01:44:17,840
Speaker 2: that and be glad that I'm free to do that.

2005
01:44:19,360 --> 01:44:21,479
Speaker 1: Okay, let's say you're going on the road with not

2006
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:25,320
Speaker 1: one of your traditional acts. How do you decide what

2007
01:44:25,479 --> 01:44:26,000
Speaker 1: to charge?

2008
01:44:27,520 --> 01:44:32,240
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm terrible at that. Ooh, I don't know what

2009
01:44:32,400 --> 01:44:35,040
Speaker 2: to say about that. It's not something I do if

2010
01:44:35,439 --> 01:44:38,200
Speaker 2: it's not something I'm good at and not something I

2011
01:44:38,320 --> 01:44:40,519
Speaker 2: want to deal with. So I deal with it because

2012
01:44:40,560 --> 01:44:43,120
Speaker 2: I have to. Sometimes we ask to be paid what

2013
01:44:43,240 --> 01:44:46,719
Speaker 2: the other guys are getting. There's that trick, and it's

2014
01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:50,519
Speaker 2: kind of silly that amongst the musicians who are backing

2015
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:52,800
Speaker 2: someone up, it's pretty rare that we even discuss it.

2016
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:54,920
Speaker 2: It ought to be the first thing we talk about.

2017
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:58,759
Speaker 2: But I'm guessing, as you can probably tell from listening

2018
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:01,960
Speaker 2: to me talk that this about because most of us,

2019
01:45:02,240 --> 01:45:04,519
Speaker 2: like me, went into it for the music and they

2020
01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:06,640
Speaker 2: just kind of shy away from the business side of it.

2021
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:11,400
Speaker 1: Okay, Back in the earlier days after you work with

2022
01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:14,679
Speaker 1: Peter Gabriel and you still have holes in your system.

2023
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:16,599
Speaker 1: Your rep is not as big as it is now.

2024
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:21,600
Speaker 1: To what degree did you network and try to find opportunities?

2025
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:23,840
Speaker 1: And to what degree did you sit there and wait

2026
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:24,800
Speaker 1: for the phone to ring.

2027
01:45:25,880 --> 01:45:29,920
Speaker 2: I never networked. I sit there and I don't sit

2028
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:31,680
Speaker 2: there and wait for the phone to ring. I work

2029
01:45:31,720 --> 01:45:34,800
Speaker 2: on my solo albums and I and I call guys

2030
01:45:34,840 --> 01:45:36,720
Speaker 2: and ask them to jam. And you know, I do

2031
01:45:37,000 --> 01:45:39,720
Speaker 2: the other kind of music that we all do, but

2032
01:45:40,120 --> 01:45:43,519
Speaker 2: I do not. I don't know how to what would

2033
01:45:43,520 --> 01:45:45,160
Speaker 2: you call how to fish for work? I just don't

2034
01:45:45,160 --> 01:45:47,880
Speaker 2: know how to do that. And by the way, and

2035
01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:50,840
Speaker 2: by the way, at every you're talk to me about

2036
01:45:50,880 --> 01:45:53,439
Speaker 2: me like I'm extremely busy, and I am. As we

2037
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:56,439
Speaker 2: talked today, I have a huge amount of touring coming up,

2038
01:45:57,320 --> 01:46:00,640
Speaker 2: but then actually have a little something in January and

2039
01:46:00,720 --> 01:46:03,400
Speaker 2: then I might I don't know. It could be months

2040
01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:06,960
Speaker 2: or even six months before I get anything good, in

2041
01:46:07,040 --> 01:46:09,400
Speaker 2: which case I'll finish the second another album.

2042
01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:13,800
Speaker 1: So let's say, I mean I know how to contact you.

2043
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:17,600
Speaker 1: Most people do not. But assuming they can get to you,

2044
01:46:18,280 --> 01:46:19,960
Speaker 1: will you basically take any gig?

2045
01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:22,880
Speaker 2: No, not at all. I want to hear the music.

2046
01:46:23,400 --> 01:46:27,320
Speaker 2: It's become easy from the internet used to be more complicated.

2047
01:46:27,400 --> 01:46:30,720
Speaker 2: But what was the It wasn't Facebook. There was a

2048
01:46:32,360 --> 01:46:36,360
Speaker 2: MySpace that was it where they could play me the

2049
01:46:36,439 --> 01:46:38,519
Speaker 2: demo and everybody could find me. That was kind of cool.

2050
01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:41,439
Speaker 2: I don't know why it went away, but yeah, it's

2051
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:43,560
Speaker 2: not only that it wants to be good music, but

2052
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:46,719
Speaker 2: I want to hear that I have something to offer

2053
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:50,920
Speaker 2: for that music. I'll take an extreme example. Let's say

2054
01:46:50,960 --> 01:46:54,680
Speaker 2: it's disco. If you today, Bob, you send me a

2055
01:46:54,720 --> 01:46:58,120
Speaker 2: disco track, and maybe I could technically do it, and

2056
01:46:58,160 --> 01:47:01,280
Speaker 2: maybe it's a really good disco track, but I have

2057
01:47:01,520 --> 01:47:04,760
Speaker 2: you know, the demo bass part would be fine, better

2058
01:47:04,840 --> 01:47:06,080
Speaker 2: than what I could do, or as good as what

2059
01:47:06,120 --> 01:47:08,040
Speaker 2: I could do. So I have nothing to offer to

2060
01:47:08,160 --> 01:47:10,560
Speaker 2: that track. So I would say with respect, I was

2061
01:47:10,640 --> 01:47:16,280
Speaker 2: saying sorry, not for me. And and a guy comes

2062
01:47:16,320 --> 01:47:19,960
Speaker 2: to mind, what's his name, really good h Nick di Virgilio,

2063
01:47:20,160 --> 01:47:23,880
Speaker 2: very excellent singer and drummer. And sometimes I play on

2064
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:28,080
Speaker 2: his records progressive rock, wonderful stuff and one once in

2065
01:47:28,120 --> 01:47:29,800
Speaker 2: a while, I mean, he'll have me play on a track.

2066
01:47:30,000 --> 01:47:31,680
Speaker 2: And a couple of years ago he sent me one

2067
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:35,040
Speaker 2: where he had played the bass, and I listened. Usually

2068
01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:37,920
Speaker 2: I only give one listen to the bass part that's there,

2069
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:39,479
Speaker 2: and then I want to hear it without it. But

2070
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:41,840
Speaker 2: I kept listening to it, and the bass part was great.

2071
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:44,360
Speaker 2: He's a friend that I've worked with him a lot.

2072
01:47:44,400 --> 01:47:46,720
Speaker 2: But I had I had a writer him. I said, I,

2073
01:47:47,240 --> 01:47:49,479
Speaker 2: All the best I could do is do exactly what

2074
01:47:49,640 --> 01:47:52,080
Speaker 2: you did. Did. I couldn't even improve on the sound.

2075
01:47:52,439 --> 01:47:55,479
Speaker 2: So let's uh, you know, right on right on that

2076
01:47:55,600 --> 01:47:57,519
Speaker 2: track that the bass player said, you got it, you

2077
01:47:57,640 --> 01:47:58,360
Speaker 2: did it really well.

2078
01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:02,120
Speaker 1: So how'd you end up working with Paul Simon?

2079
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:08,040
Speaker 2: I think because of the great engineer and producer Phil Ramone.

2080
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:10,920
Speaker 2: He had used me in the same rhythm section on

2081
01:48:11,040 --> 01:48:14,320
Speaker 2: a number of sessions, and because he was doing Paul.

2082
01:48:15,360 --> 01:48:17,360
Speaker 2: My memory is not perfect of this, but I'm guessing

2083
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:20,519
Speaker 2: I certainly didn't know Paul himself, and Phil was the producer,

2084
01:48:20,600 --> 01:48:22,240
Speaker 2: So it was Phil who brought in Steve Gadd and

2085
01:48:22,320 --> 01:48:26,400
Speaker 2: myself Richard t on piano, Eric Gale on guitar. We

2086
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:28,240
Speaker 2: were sort of a rhythm section that had done a

2087
01:48:28,280 --> 01:48:32,040
Speaker 2: lot of records together, and the experience of working with Paul,

2088
01:48:32,120 --> 01:48:35,040
Speaker 2: of course was super special and remained that way for

2089
01:48:35,160 --> 01:48:37,840
Speaker 2: the few years that I worked with him, both live

2090
01:48:38,120 --> 01:48:38,920
Speaker 2: and in the studio.

2091
01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:42,400
Speaker 1: So what was it like being in the movie One

2092
01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:45,040
Speaker 1: Trick Pony? That was?

2093
01:48:45,720 --> 01:48:47,840
Speaker 2: That was not thrilling to me. I didn't I didn't

2094
01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:49,519
Speaker 2: really want to be an actor, but there I was

2095
01:48:49,680 --> 01:48:51,559
Speaker 2: the bass player in the band, in the real band,

2096
01:48:51,640 --> 01:48:54,120
Speaker 2: and trying to play the part of being the bass

2097
01:48:54,160 --> 01:48:58,680
Speaker 2: player in the pretend band. Yeah, it was. I only

2098
01:48:58,720 --> 01:49:00,519
Speaker 2: had a few lines, so it wasn't saying the lines.

2099
01:49:00,560 --> 01:49:03,360
Speaker 2: It was a lot of hanging around in Cleveland and

2100
01:49:03,479 --> 01:49:05,960
Speaker 2: having makeup put on and taken off and put on

2101
01:49:06,080 --> 01:49:08,880
Speaker 2: again and taken off to be to look like a

2102
01:49:09,000 --> 01:49:11,840
Speaker 2: band in a club, which is sort of what I

2103
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:14,080
Speaker 2: look like to begin with. And I couldn't even use

2104
01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:17,800
Speaker 2: my name because, uh, for some reason, Paul had called

2105
01:49:17,840 --> 01:49:21,479
Speaker 2: himself Jonah Levin. That was the name of the lead character, Paul,

2106
01:49:22,040 --> 01:49:24,320
Speaker 2: and so I couldn't be Tony Levin. That would be confusing,

2107
01:49:24,439 --> 01:49:28,240
Speaker 2: even though we're only talking script because nobody says, hey, Jonah,

2108
01:49:28,280 --> 01:49:31,320
Speaker 2: how you doing, It's not not necessarily in the dialogue.

2109
01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:34,920
Speaker 2: So my name I got a big kick. My name

2110
01:49:35,040 --> 01:49:37,320
Speaker 2: was John de Bautista, John the Baptist.

2111
01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:41,080
Speaker 1: Okay, there's a scene in that movie. You were driving

2112
01:49:41,160 --> 01:49:44,719
Speaker 1: in the van, you're playing dead rock stars. I remember

2113
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:46,800
Speaker 1: seeing that movie when it came out and said, oh,

2114
01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:49,040
Speaker 1: I know who's alive and dead? How come they don't know?

2115
01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:49,920
Speaker 2: Now?

2116
01:49:50,560 --> 01:49:53,360
Speaker 1: I played that in mind as that I can't you know, remember,

2117
01:49:53,600 --> 01:49:55,519
Speaker 1: can you tell me anything about that scene?

2118
01:49:56,000 --> 01:50:00,000
Speaker 2: Yes, Paul had written it with his sense of humor

2119
01:50:00,280 --> 01:50:02,920
Speaker 2: and irony. You know Paul, what Paul's like as a writer.

2120
01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:07,479
Speaker 2: And the guys in the band could learn it. But

2121
01:50:08,040 --> 01:50:10,400
Speaker 2: but they didn't know what they were talking about because

2122
01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:13,280
Speaker 2: Richard T and Eric Gale and Steve Gad they didn't

2123
01:50:13,280 --> 01:50:16,640
Speaker 2: know any of those bands. They don't listen to. I

2124
01:50:16,680 --> 01:50:18,280
Speaker 2: don't know who it was at Fleetwood Mac now it

2125
01:50:18,400 --> 01:50:25,000
Speaker 2: was yeah, the plane going down? It was Plenty. Yeah, yeah,

2126
01:50:25,040 --> 01:50:28,000
Speaker 2: they didn't They just didn't know. So they're reading that

2127
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:32,320
Speaker 2: and the director who didn't realize that, Bob Young, very

2128
01:50:32,360 --> 01:50:34,920
Speaker 2: good director, who was in the band with us somehow.

2129
01:50:35,040 --> 01:50:37,080
Speaker 2: So okay, let's do it again, and this time you

2130
01:50:37,160 --> 01:50:40,759
Speaker 2: guys just ad lib, just make up names of bands

2131
01:50:40,800 --> 01:50:44,559
Speaker 2: that died. We couldn't do it. These are not actors

2132
01:50:44,600 --> 01:50:46,639
Speaker 2: and these are not guys a verse in the history

2133
01:50:46,640 --> 01:50:52,519
Speaker 2: of rock and roll. So yeah, it was awkward. Well

2134
01:50:52,520 --> 01:50:54,400
Speaker 2: you told me, Just tell you one more thing. There

2135
01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:58,360
Speaker 2: was for some reason, there was a thing about Tim Harden,

2136
01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:03,200
Speaker 2: Uh a joke. I think the scene ended with somebody

2137
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:08,200
Speaker 2: saying Tim Harden and someone else saying scripted saying, oh,

2138
01:51:08,280 --> 01:51:10,120
Speaker 2: he's not dead, he just hasn't had a record out

2139
01:51:10,160 --> 01:51:12,960
Speaker 2: in a while or something like that, and the lawyers

2140
01:51:13,360 --> 01:51:16,559
Speaker 2: later said, you got to reshoot that scene. And then

2141
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:20,840
Speaker 2: Tim Harden died, right, Yeah, so there was that about

2142
01:51:20,840 --> 01:51:21,280
Speaker 2: that scene.

2143
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:25,760
Speaker 1: Okay, now you talk about some legendary people. You worked with,

2144
01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:28,519
Speaker 1: John Lennon, Peter Gabriel. What was it like working in

2145
01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:30,640
Speaker 1: the studio with Paul Simon.

2146
01:51:32,280 --> 01:51:35,360
Speaker 2: Terrific I did a lot over a long period of time,

2147
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:40,599
Speaker 2: and Paul would well, of course, the songs are so great,

2148
01:51:40,680 --> 01:51:44,960
Speaker 2: they're really special. But he his process seemed to be

2149
01:51:46,120 --> 01:51:48,519
Speaker 2: an internal one and that he was going to search

2150
01:51:48,840 --> 01:51:51,599
Speaker 2: for the right field for that piece until it was right,

2151
01:51:51,680 --> 01:51:54,320
Speaker 2: and until it was right, it just wasn't going to

2152
01:51:55,040 --> 01:51:56,680
Speaker 2: He wasn't going to be happy, it wasn't going to work.

2153
01:51:56,720 --> 01:51:58,360
Speaker 2: It could take a month or it could take an hour.

2154
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:02,160
Speaker 2: So typically he would play the piece. Sometimes it had

2155
01:52:02,200 --> 01:52:04,560
Speaker 2: all the lyrics, but if not, he would just hum it,

2156
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:07,040
Speaker 2: and he would go over to Richard t the great,

2157
01:52:07,160 --> 01:52:09,760
Speaker 2: great keyboard player, usually on the Fender Roads, always on

2158
01:52:09,840 --> 01:52:13,360
Speaker 2: the Fender Roads, and play it as a duo until

2159
01:52:13,360 --> 01:52:17,400
Speaker 2: he was happy with Richard's part, which took about thirty seconds,

2160
01:52:17,479 --> 01:52:20,240
Speaker 2: because Richard always played great stuff, and then Paul would

2161
01:52:20,240 --> 01:52:22,360
Speaker 2: come over to me, or to Steve Gadd the drummer,

2162
01:52:23,560 --> 01:52:26,280
Speaker 2: maybe to Eric the guitar player, but usually Eric could

2163
01:52:26,360 --> 01:52:29,360
Speaker 2: kind of cop what Paul was doing on guitar, and

2164
01:52:30,560 --> 01:52:33,839
Speaker 2: Paul would come over to me and sing the melody,

2165
01:52:33,920 --> 01:52:36,840
Speaker 2: but he would also kind of hum or sing imply

2166
01:52:37,040 --> 01:52:39,760
Speaker 2: a bass part. And it was fascinating to me that

2167
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:44,000
Speaker 2: it was a very melodic not surprising there, and more

2168
01:52:44,120 --> 01:52:46,880
Speaker 2: melodic than I would normally play. And I would start

2169
01:52:46,920 --> 01:52:50,160
Speaker 2: to play something like what he's doing, but also I'm

2170
01:52:50,240 --> 01:52:52,240
Speaker 2: the bass player and I need to ground it, and

2171
01:52:52,640 --> 01:52:55,559
Speaker 2: so the end product would be something. Pretty quickly we'd

2172
01:52:55,560 --> 01:52:58,280
Speaker 2: find something we're both happy with that's more melodic than

2173
01:52:58,320 --> 01:53:02,280
Speaker 2: I generally play. After a while playing with Paul, I

2174
01:53:02,400 --> 01:53:05,560
Speaker 2: became a more melodic player. I became more likely to

2175
01:53:05,680 --> 01:53:07,720
Speaker 2: go up high and play a chord way up high

2176
01:53:08,360 --> 01:53:10,520
Speaker 2: than I was before that. So I was very influenced

2177
01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:13,120
Speaker 2: by that experience, and you can imagine I treasure it

2178
01:53:13,200 --> 01:53:17,080
Speaker 2: a lot. But also he let me play the low

2179
01:53:17,160 --> 01:53:19,840
Speaker 2: notes and the simple parts. You know. A great example

2180
01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:23,040
Speaker 2: is Fifty Ways Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover, an

2181
01:53:23,080 --> 01:53:27,560
Speaker 2: amazing song lyrically, even I love the irony and the

2182
01:53:27,840 --> 01:53:30,120
Speaker 2: not just the chorus, the famous part, but the first

2183
01:53:30,240 --> 01:53:32,479
Speaker 2: verse starts in a wonderful way. But in the beginning

2184
01:53:32,479 --> 01:53:35,919
Speaker 2: I'm playing high and playing chords can be a melodic

2185
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:38,760
Speaker 2: bass thing. But then the when the chorus starts, I'm

2186
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:41,599
Speaker 2: just playing quarter notes down low in a gospel kind

2187
01:53:41,640 --> 01:53:45,360
Speaker 2: of way, just the way, very very simple, And I

2188
01:53:45,479 --> 01:53:48,240
Speaker 2: love the contrast between those two. And it reminds me

2189
01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:50,240
Speaker 2: if I hear that, it reminds me how much I

2190
01:53:50,360 --> 01:53:53,840
Speaker 2: learned from Paul melodically about what I can do on

2191
01:53:53,960 --> 01:53:55,680
Speaker 2: bass to.

2192
01:53:55,800 --> 01:53:58,840
Speaker 1: What degree you talk about getting the feel right. But

2193
01:53:58,960 --> 01:54:01,639
Speaker 1: when he got in the student, were the songs finished

2194
01:54:02,360 --> 01:54:04,920
Speaker 1: and just tweaking them or would he change them in

2195
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:05,800
Speaker 1: the studio.

2196
01:54:06,680 --> 01:54:09,880
Speaker 2: Both Sometimes it was finished, done deal, and sometimes he

2197
01:54:09,920 --> 01:54:14,200
Speaker 2: had no lyrics. Sometimes I think one song called have

2198
01:54:14,360 --> 01:54:16,840
Speaker 2: a Good Time, Maybe it was he said his son

2199
01:54:18,160 --> 01:54:20,200
Speaker 2: had just said something that morning to me, and they

2200
01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:22,840
Speaker 2: all had a good time, and that was the song

2201
01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:25,360
Speaker 2: was going to be about that, and he he I

2202
01:54:25,400 --> 01:54:27,880
Speaker 2: don't remember how long we worked on it could be days,

2203
01:54:28,080 --> 01:54:29,880
Speaker 2: could be one day, I don't know. But once we

2204
01:54:30,040 --> 01:54:32,280
Speaker 2: had the track in a way that made him happy.

2205
01:54:32,600 --> 01:54:34,560
Speaker 2: The next morning he came in with the finish lyrics.

2206
01:54:34,600 --> 01:54:36,800
Speaker 2: He had written them that night. I happened to come

2207
01:54:36,840 --> 01:54:39,040
Speaker 2: in early and I heard him singing a song that

2208
01:54:39,120 --> 01:54:41,560
Speaker 2: sounded like it took a year to write. So that's

2209
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:44,040
Speaker 2: what I meant about, when things were right for him,

2210
01:54:44,120 --> 01:54:46,280
Speaker 2: that he could he could complete the song.

2211
01:54:48,160 --> 01:54:51,600
Speaker 1: So let's say you're working with him for months once again,

2212
01:54:52,120 --> 01:54:55,200
Speaker 1: how do you decide to charge? You make it a union? Raid?

2213
01:54:55,320 --> 01:54:57,720
Speaker 1: Do they make you an offer beforehand? How does that

2214
01:54:57,800 --> 01:54:58,240
Speaker 1: even work?

2215
01:54:58,960 --> 01:55:01,360
Speaker 2: I think back in those first of all, I don't

2216
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:04,280
Speaker 2: I'm squeamish about all that. I don't pay much attention

2217
01:55:04,400 --> 01:55:06,600
Speaker 2: to it. But back in those days, it was called

2218
01:55:06,600 --> 01:55:09,240
Speaker 2: the there was a union scale. Maybe some of the

2219
01:55:09,320 --> 01:55:12,080
Speaker 2: other guys made what's called double scale on that session.

2220
01:55:12,520 --> 01:55:14,880
Speaker 2: I don't really know, but I was getting paid by

2221
01:55:14,920 --> 01:55:20,120
Speaker 2: the hour, not tremendous pay, not terrible pay. I wasn't

2222
01:55:20,160 --> 01:55:23,560
Speaker 2: really thinking about it then, and I don't remember. I'm

2223
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:26,960
Speaker 2: gonna guess I know. When I started in New York,

2224
01:55:27,000 --> 01:55:29,720
Speaker 2: a double sorry a session, a three hour record session

2225
01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:32,640
Speaker 2: paid sixty dollars or something like that. So maybe it

2226
01:55:32,680 --> 01:55:34,640
Speaker 2: went up to one hundred and eighty dollars or something

2227
01:55:34,720 --> 01:55:37,080
Speaker 2: like that, but for a three hour session, and those

2228
01:55:37,120 --> 01:55:38,440
Speaker 2: would have been six hour sessions.

2229
01:55:39,560 --> 01:55:44,080
Speaker 1: Now you're literally classically trained. A lot of rock bass

2230
01:55:44,360 --> 01:55:50,240
Speaker 1: go the and then you have Paul McCartney, who was

2231
01:55:50,360 --> 01:55:54,720
Speaker 1: famous for Melody on the base, certainly untrained. What is

2232
01:55:54,800 --> 01:55:56,800
Speaker 1: your view on McCartney's base play.

2233
01:55:57,480 --> 01:56:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, fantastic, fantastic stuff that influenced all of us, but

2234
01:56:01,040 --> 01:56:03,839
Speaker 2: me included for sure. Even though you know the training,

2235
01:56:04,680 --> 01:56:07,480
Speaker 2: it really has nothing to do with it. When I

2236
01:56:07,520 --> 01:56:09,880
Speaker 2: came to I'll tell you a little thing about that,

2237
01:56:10,080 --> 01:56:12,680
Speaker 2: the training. I was a classical musician. So when I

2238
01:56:12,720 --> 01:56:15,120
Speaker 2: came to New York and started doing sessions, when there

2239
01:56:15,240 --> 01:56:17,280
Speaker 2: was a chart and an arranger who would write out

2240
01:56:17,360 --> 01:56:20,040
Speaker 2: every note to play, I would play every note the

2241
01:56:20,120 --> 01:56:22,400
Speaker 2: way he wrote it, the way a classical player would.

2242
01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:25,440
Speaker 2: Even when I I'm not proud of this, but if

2243
01:56:25,480 --> 01:56:27,720
Speaker 2: I saw and just knew that it was not the

2244
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:30,560
Speaker 2: note that was wanted. I would still play it because

2245
01:56:30,560 --> 01:56:33,760
Speaker 2: that's what classic I'm not. It's silly, but that's what

2246
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:37,760
Speaker 2: classical players do. Literally, if a fly poops on the page,

2247
01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:39,640
Speaker 2: you're going to play that note. And you just pointed

2248
01:56:39,680 --> 01:56:42,280
Speaker 2: the page, all it's there. Okay. So I did that

2249
01:56:42,400 --> 01:56:45,680
Speaker 2: for a minute and New York minute. I did that

2250
01:56:45,800 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 2: for I don't know X number of months before I

2251
01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:51,280
Speaker 2: realized that what I want to do is figure out

2252
01:56:51,320 --> 01:56:54,560
Speaker 2: what the arranger wants and play that in spite of

2253
01:56:54,640 --> 01:56:58,760
Speaker 2: what he wrote. I actually don't remember what your question was,

2254
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:03,320
Speaker 2: but it started me off on thing about reading Bob McCartney. Yeah, okay,

2255
01:57:03,400 --> 01:57:08,320
Speaker 2: So I didn't really in my early session years have

2256
01:57:08,520 --> 01:57:10,680
Speaker 2: a style of playing. I was doing what I thought

2257
01:57:10,800 --> 01:57:15,560
Speaker 2: was wanted on that on those on that particular record. However,

2258
01:57:15,680 --> 01:57:18,480
Speaker 2: I was influenced, given the chance to plitt, to make

2259
01:57:18,560 --> 01:57:21,600
Speaker 2: up my own part, which I often wasn't. I was

2260
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:23,920
Speaker 2: influenced by Paul Mark McCartney to do a great deal

2261
01:57:24,080 --> 01:57:28,919
Speaker 2: not only the choice of notes, which are very fantastic,

2262
01:57:29,000 --> 01:57:32,120
Speaker 2: you know, beyond description fantastic, but the sound he was playing,

2263
01:57:32,280 --> 01:57:36,080
Speaker 2: famously ah Hoffner, which sounded very different than than the

2264
01:57:36,200 --> 01:57:38,680
Speaker 2: Fender base that we all were playing on. All the

2265
01:57:38,760 --> 01:57:40,960
Speaker 2: records made in New York in those days. Nobody had

2266
01:57:41,000 --> 01:57:43,600
Speaker 2: a Hoffner or Gibson, and if you did and walked

2267
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:47,160
Speaker 2: into a session, a normal session, the engineer would never

2268
01:57:47,320 --> 01:57:49,680
Speaker 2: use you again. The producer, they wouldn't like the sound

2269
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:52,840
Speaker 2: you had. So I wasn't allowed the latitude of sound

2270
01:57:53,160 --> 01:57:56,280
Speaker 2: that Paul really made use of in a great way.

2271
01:57:57,160 --> 01:58:01,120
Speaker 2: And I'm also going to add d Murray, the unheralded

2272
01:58:01,440 --> 01:58:05,120
Speaker 2: wonderful bass player with Elton John on his early records,

2273
01:58:05,600 --> 01:58:09,480
Speaker 2: also played in a wonderfully melodic way, and that influenced

2274
01:58:09,520 --> 01:58:09,840
Speaker 2: me a lot.

2275
01:58:17,760 --> 01:58:21,200
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's say someone makes contact with you, you're

2276
01:58:21,240 --> 01:58:25,680
Speaker 1: out with the bead, you're out with whomever, and you

2277
01:58:25,840 --> 01:58:28,360
Speaker 1: can't do it. Who do you tell them to call?

2278
01:58:30,200 --> 01:58:33,120
Speaker 2: Very very funny question. That has happened in the last

2279
01:58:33,160 --> 01:58:35,160
Speaker 2: couple of days. A few times I've got emails about

2280
01:58:35,520 --> 01:58:38,000
Speaker 2: doing a track, because that's I do. Get those emails,

2281
01:58:38,040 --> 01:58:40,840
Speaker 2: and I had to say next year I could do it.

2282
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:44,760
Speaker 2: It is not a thing at all in the industry

2283
01:58:44,840 --> 01:58:47,440
Speaker 2: where I live that a bass player would be asked

2284
01:58:47,480 --> 01:58:50,600
Speaker 2: to recommend another bass player just doesn't happen, so nobody

2285
01:58:50,720 --> 01:58:52,480
Speaker 2: they're not if I can't do it, they're not really

2286
01:58:52,520 --> 01:58:54,400
Speaker 2: interested in who I like. They're going to get another

2287
01:58:54,400 --> 01:58:57,040
Speaker 2: bass player they like, or that the drummer like. That's

2288
01:58:57,080 --> 01:58:58,000
Speaker 2: not an even better idea.

2289
01:58:59,520 --> 01:59:06,320
Speaker 1: Okay. So traditionally, a session player, a band member gets

2290
01:59:06,400 --> 01:59:09,800
Speaker 1: paid by the hour or the gig, other than the

2291
01:59:09,920 --> 01:59:14,000
Speaker 1: records you've put out yourself. Do you have royalty interests

2292
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:15,480
Speaker 1: in any of these records?

2293
01:59:16,760 --> 01:59:20,200
Speaker 2: Some there's publishing. If you had publishing is big, if

2294
01:59:20,240 --> 01:59:22,440
Speaker 2: you had something to do with writing the piece, as

2295
01:59:22,480 --> 01:59:24,160
Speaker 2: I do in King Crimson, the bands that I'm a

2296
01:59:24,200 --> 01:59:27,160
Speaker 2: remember of, and if you were a band splitting the royalties,

2297
01:59:27,200 --> 01:59:30,160
Speaker 2: there's that. Of course that's great. If you're a quote

2298
01:59:30,240 --> 01:59:36,040
Speaker 2: session man playing being paid by the hour, then I

2299
01:59:36,120 --> 01:59:38,520
Speaker 2: wish I was. I don't wish, but I'm not an

2300
01:59:38,560 --> 01:59:41,680
Speaker 2: expert at this. But in general you're just paid by

2301
01:59:41,720 --> 01:59:44,720
Speaker 2: the hour. There is no royalty factor. However, in the

2302
01:59:44,800 --> 01:59:47,480
Speaker 2: last few years that's changed a bit. There's a big

2303
01:59:47,680 --> 01:59:51,640
Speaker 2: fund of money from record labels. I guess that's divided

2304
01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:54,440
Speaker 2: up somehow in a complicated way among all the people

2305
01:59:54,480 --> 01:59:56,960
Speaker 2: who did all the sessions, and so there is that payment.

2306
01:59:57,840 --> 02:00:01,360
Speaker 2: And then there's another thing that's different. In Europe, there's

2307
02:00:01,440 --> 02:00:04,480
Speaker 2: an organization that keeps careful track. I don't know that

2308
02:00:04,560 --> 02:00:06,520
Speaker 2: there's one in the US. If there is, I guess

2309
02:00:06,560 --> 02:00:08,680
Speaker 2: I ought to find it keeps careful track of who

2310
02:00:08,720 --> 02:00:11,600
Speaker 2: played on all records and gives them some royalties from it.

2311
02:00:11,880 --> 02:00:16,520
Speaker 2: So European recordings, yes, there's some extra payments. I don't

2312
02:00:16,560 --> 02:00:19,200
Speaker 2: know anything about how that works or what the percent is.

2313
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:23,640
Speaker 1: Forgetting the money that you've put away. Are the royalty

2314
02:00:23,800 --> 02:00:29,040
Speaker 1: interests you have over your fifty odd your career significant

2315
02:00:29,760 --> 02:00:32,360
Speaker 1: such that you could live on them, or they can

2316
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:33,760
Speaker 1: basically pay for dinner.

2317
02:00:37,080 --> 02:00:39,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, somewhere in between, but a little closer to the

2318
02:00:39,880 --> 02:00:43,440
Speaker 2: dinner thing. And caveat is that I haven't counted it

2319
02:00:43,520 --> 02:00:46,400
Speaker 2: up and done that math. I've been too busy playing.

2320
02:00:47,160 --> 02:00:49,360
Speaker 2: And I like the joke, but with a little bit

2321
02:00:49,440 --> 02:00:52,200
Speaker 2: of serious, a ring of truth to it that we

2322
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:55,680
Speaker 2: musicians are very smart in that we've chosen a career

2323
02:00:55,760 --> 02:00:59,480
Speaker 2: where we have to keep working until they pull the

2324
02:00:59,520 --> 02:01:03,880
Speaker 2: instrument out of our our frozen hands and we can't

2325
02:01:03,880 --> 02:01:06,520
Speaker 2: play anymore. And it was a good decision for I think.

2326
02:01:06,440 --> 02:01:10,000
Speaker 1: For all of us, and how many times, you've been married.

2327
02:01:11,280 --> 02:01:11,600
Speaker 2: Twice?

2328
02:01:13,080 --> 02:01:14,840
Speaker 1: And how old were you when we got married the

2329
02:01:14,880 --> 02:01:15,360
Speaker 1: first time?

2330
02:01:19,480 --> 02:01:21,760
Speaker 2: First of all, I'm baffled why you or anybody would

2331
02:01:21,760 --> 02:01:26,720
Speaker 2: want to know this. I can tell you the important one,

2332
02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:28,560
Speaker 2: The now one has been eighteen years.

2333
02:01:29,160 --> 02:01:31,160
Speaker 1: Okay. Then let me ask you. Let me ask a

2334
02:01:31,160 --> 02:01:33,480
Speaker 1: couple of questions a different way. How long were you

2335
02:01:33,600 --> 02:01:34,600
Speaker 1: married the first time?

2336
02:01:36,320 --> 02:01:41,120
Speaker 2: First? More important, I'm gonna trump you with it. The

2337
02:01:41,200 --> 02:01:43,520
Speaker 2: current one is twenty eight years, nine eighteen years, and

2338
02:01:43,640 --> 02:01:45,600
Speaker 2: that's the more important one. So I was married for

2339
02:01:45,680 --> 02:01:51,680
Speaker 2: ten years, from nineteen sixty six to seventy six.

2340
02:01:52,760 --> 02:01:56,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so we were relatively young when you first got married.

2341
02:01:57,040 --> 02:02:00,600
Speaker 2: Why didn't those numbers weren't correct? By the way, it

2342
02:02:00,760 --> 02:02:03,960
Speaker 2: wasn't sixty six, it was seventy nineteen seventy in nineteen eighty.

2343
02:02:04,400 --> 02:02:08,080
Speaker 1: Okay, Why did you choose to get married at that time?

2344
02:02:10,440 --> 02:02:13,560
Speaker 2: I'm baffled by that question. I have no worthwhile.

2345
02:02:13,600 --> 02:02:16,360
Speaker 1: Well something, you know the reason I'm asking this. And

2346
02:02:16,520 --> 02:02:21,320
Speaker 1: there's a human you're a road musician. I remember Metallica.

2347
02:02:21,360 --> 02:02:23,120
Speaker 1: We're all married. They went on the road that came on,

2348
02:02:23,280 --> 02:02:26,280
Speaker 1: they all got divorces. I mean, you know, it's not

2349
02:02:26,640 --> 02:02:29,600
Speaker 1: easy to sustain a relationship when you're a road musician.

2350
02:02:29,640 --> 02:02:31,880
Speaker 1: I've talked to certain people. They say, oh, thank god

2351
02:02:31,960 --> 02:02:33,880
Speaker 1: he goes on the road, he drives me nuts when

2352
02:02:33,880 --> 02:02:36,600
Speaker 1: he's home. It all works. So I guess I'm asking.

2353
02:02:36,760 --> 02:02:41,040
Speaker 1: Sometimes people want to get married because the musician wants

2354
02:02:41,080 --> 02:02:45,480
Speaker 1: an anchor, or the person at home says, hey, you know,

2355
02:02:45,640 --> 02:02:49,600
Speaker 1: I want a commitment. Other times, irrelevant of how the

2356
02:02:50,360 --> 02:02:53,400
Speaker 1: relationship started, the fact that one person's on the road

2357
02:02:53,480 --> 02:02:56,240
Speaker 1: one person is not ends the relationship.

2358
02:02:56,840 --> 02:03:02,400
Speaker 2: Good point, and yeah, now I understand the the issue

2359
02:03:02,440 --> 02:03:04,880
Speaker 2: behind the question. It's a very good question. I think

2360
02:03:04,920 --> 02:03:07,320
Speaker 2: how many years it last, it doesn't matter. It was

2361
02:03:07,400 --> 02:03:10,520
Speaker 2: always difficult, always has stress on a relationship to have

2362
02:03:10,640 --> 02:03:14,120
Speaker 2: one person gone all the time. And there's also in

2363
02:03:14,240 --> 02:03:17,320
Speaker 2: the old days, in my case, when tours were longer,

2364
02:03:17,400 --> 02:03:19,880
Speaker 2: when they were eight weeks, ten weeks, twelve weeks, and

2365
02:03:19,960 --> 02:03:22,720
Speaker 2: then two weeks at home, and then more they're not

2366
02:03:23,000 --> 02:03:25,600
Speaker 2: quite that long usually anymore. This upcoming one is, but

2367
02:03:26,760 --> 02:03:30,160
Speaker 2: that exacerbates that factor. Then you're really not a person

2368
02:03:30,240 --> 02:03:33,560
Speaker 2: at home, and then when you come home there's a

2369
02:03:33,680 --> 02:03:36,480
Speaker 2: period of adjustment. It's just a different world. No matter

2370
02:03:36,560 --> 02:03:40,280
Speaker 2: how ground did a person you are. Animals and kids

2371
02:03:40,320 --> 02:03:41,760
Speaker 2: help a lot because they don't care that you are

2372
02:03:41,800 --> 02:03:43,960
Speaker 2: on the road. But no matter how grounded you are,

2373
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:47,440
Speaker 2: you've had a life where you or your band is

2374
02:03:47,520 --> 02:03:51,280
Speaker 2: the center of attention of everybody. You meet, every worker,

2375
02:03:51,400 --> 02:03:54,200
Speaker 2: every day, every not just fans, but people working us.

2376
02:03:54,480 --> 02:03:58,120
Speaker 2: It's all about you, and interviews and all that all

2377
02:03:58,120 --> 02:04:01,160
Speaker 2: about you. And then you go home and it's you know, literally,

2378
02:04:01,640 --> 02:04:03,280
Speaker 2: people walk up to you on the street and you

2379
02:04:03,440 --> 02:04:05,960
Speaker 2: start to reach for a pen to sign our autographs

2380
02:04:06,000 --> 02:04:09,400
Speaker 2: and you're just a home. You're nobody, thank goodness. So

2381
02:04:09,520 --> 02:04:13,120
Speaker 2: there's that, and that add that to a relationship. It is,

2382
02:04:13,160 --> 02:04:15,520
Speaker 2: of course to strain, and it was harder in the

2383
02:04:15,880 --> 02:04:18,600
Speaker 2: even harder in the old days when we didn't have

2384
02:04:18,680 --> 02:04:21,400
Speaker 2: cell phones, when you had to make phone calls from

2385
02:04:21,720 --> 02:04:25,720
Speaker 2: hotel rooms, which were very notoriously expensive, really expensive one

2386
02:04:25,760 --> 02:04:28,800
Speaker 2: hundred dollars phone calls, and if you started to have

2387
02:04:28,920 --> 02:04:30,880
Speaker 2: some issues and want to have a fight or a

2388
02:04:30,960 --> 02:04:33,120
Speaker 2: long talk, it was it was more than you could

2389
02:04:33,120 --> 02:04:35,960
Speaker 2: afford from being out. So that in that one case,

2390
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:37,960
Speaker 2: there's a couple ways that being on the road got

2391
02:04:38,000 --> 02:04:40,680
Speaker 2: a lot easier. The other's GPS because we used to

2392
02:04:40,720 --> 02:04:43,560
Speaker 2: be lost a lot of time and no phone to

2393
02:04:44,400 --> 02:04:47,920
Speaker 2: be able to call and ask directions. Okay, so yeah,

2394
02:04:48,040 --> 02:04:50,640
Speaker 2: I got more mature. We all got more mature as

2395
02:04:50,640 --> 02:04:53,720
Speaker 2: we got older, and hopefully and in my case for sure,

2396
02:04:54,200 --> 02:04:57,320
Speaker 2: found a partner who understand what understands from the beginning,

2397
02:04:57,400 --> 02:04:59,680
Speaker 2: what's involved with somebody who's not around all the time,

2398
02:05:00,320 --> 02:05:05,880
Speaker 2: and hopefully found ways to connect emotionally and meaningfully while

2399
02:05:05,920 --> 02:05:09,640
Speaker 2: you're apart. That's a big part of it. But at

2400
02:05:09,640 --> 02:05:11,080
Speaker 2: the end, I'm going to just say that I'm no

2401
02:05:11,200 --> 02:05:13,320
Speaker 2: expert at this. I'm just saying what little comes to

2402
02:05:13,400 --> 02:05:14,960
Speaker 2: mind in my case about it.

2403
02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:18,600
Speaker 1: Okay, you've been on the road and been married, not

2404
02:05:18,840 --> 02:05:23,600
Speaker 1: been married. You know, traditionally people took advantage of the

2405
02:05:23,680 --> 02:05:26,640
Speaker 1: so called peroks of the road, certainly pre cell phone

2406
02:05:26,720 --> 02:05:31,040
Speaker 1: camera and you know, I've been out there myself. I've seen,

2407
02:05:31,920 --> 02:05:34,640
Speaker 1: you know, people who were married and they're taking advantage.

2408
02:05:34,680 --> 02:05:36,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say anything code of the road,

2409
02:05:36,760 --> 02:05:40,200
Speaker 1: so to speak. Was this a lifestyle the people you

2410
02:05:40,280 --> 02:05:44,080
Speaker 1: went out with partook of if that's the word or

2411
02:05:44,200 --> 02:05:46,360
Speaker 1: that you partake or just the acts you were out with,

2412
02:05:46,520 --> 02:05:47,560
Speaker 1: that just wasn't a thing.

2413
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:50,880
Speaker 2: No, never toured with that kind of act. I know

2414
02:05:51,000 --> 02:05:53,080
Speaker 2: that they're out there, and that kind of rock and

2415
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:57,760
Speaker 2: roll lifestyle is out there, and I've bumped into it

2416
02:05:57,920 --> 02:06:00,120
Speaker 2: sometimes and seen other bands that are like that. The

2417
02:06:00,560 --> 02:06:02,800
Speaker 2: never anything like that in the band's I tour with.

2418
02:06:03,920 --> 02:06:04,960
Speaker 1: And do you have any children?

2419
02:06:05,560 --> 02:06:08,320
Speaker 2: Yes, My wonderful daughter is thirty nine now living in

2420
02:06:08,680 --> 02:06:11,920
Speaker 2: Los Angeles and writes and directs horror movies.

2421
02:06:13,520 --> 02:06:16,760
Speaker 1: And if she off the payroll, I don't know what that.

2422
02:06:16,880 --> 02:06:18,120
Speaker 2: Means, off the payroll.

2423
02:06:18,200 --> 02:06:19,200
Speaker 1: Do you support her?

2424
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:24,240
Speaker 2: No? No, I don't. Oh that's funny. She's thirty nine.

2425
02:06:24,320 --> 02:06:27,160
Speaker 1: I think, Hey, listen, I know people in their seventies.

2426
02:06:27,280 --> 02:06:32,880
Speaker 2: Okay, she'll support a valid question. Yep. I'm looking forward

2427
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:35,520
Speaker 2: to only a few years from now when I'm known

2428
02:06:35,680 --> 02:06:37,360
Speaker 2: as the guy who's her father.

2429
02:06:39,080 --> 02:06:42,680
Speaker 1: Let's hope. So you start working with Peter Gabriel in

2430
02:06:42,760 --> 02:06:45,400
Speaker 1: seventy six. The album comes out in seventy seven. The

2431
02:06:45,440 --> 02:06:50,040
Speaker 1: first Album's Got a Push, does have Salisbury Hill. Second album,

2432
02:06:50,760 --> 02:06:54,240
Speaker 1: Irrelevant of Quality, does not have the same commercial impact.

2433
02:06:54,800 --> 02:06:58,240
Speaker 1: Atlantic won't put out the third album That's on Mercury,

2434
02:06:58,320 --> 02:07:02,000
Speaker 1: which is really the best of that realogy. Then he

2435
02:07:02,280 --> 02:07:06,240
Speaker 1: shifts to Geffen. Has a certain amount of Action has

2436
02:07:06,320 --> 02:07:09,200
Speaker 1: a double live album, then all of a sudden, SO

2437
02:07:09,560 --> 02:07:13,840
Speaker 1: comes out and it's gigantic, but sledshammer, et cetera. From

2438
02:07:13,960 --> 02:07:17,720
Speaker 1: the inside. What did this look like? It was like

2439
02:07:17,800 --> 02:07:20,240
Speaker 1: you were in the wilderness. Was it like you were

2440
02:07:20,240 --> 02:07:23,280
Speaker 1: in the wilderness and didn't care. Was it like you

2441
02:07:23,360 --> 02:07:25,640
Speaker 1: knew it was only a matter of time? What was

2442
02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:25,960
Speaker 1: it like?

2443
02:07:27,240 --> 02:07:29,640
Speaker 2: I was never good at knowing what's going to be

2444
02:07:29,720 --> 02:07:32,440
Speaker 2: a successful record or not, and I don't. Plus I

2445
02:07:32,480 --> 02:07:35,600
Speaker 2: don't pay attention to it. Plus it doesn't really matter

2446
02:07:35,760 --> 02:07:37,680
Speaker 2: to be the bass player on those records or be

2447
02:07:37,720 --> 02:07:39,880
Speaker 2: the bass player on the tour. So it's not that

2448
02:07:40,000 --> 02:07:42,960
Speaker 2: it didn't care about it, but I didn't care enough

2449
02:07:43,000 --> 02:07:45,280
Speaker 2: about it to be involved in it. I only vaguely

2450
02:07:45,360 --> 02:07:48,200
Speaker 2: knew that that stuff was going on. And I'm you know,

2451
02:07:48,280 --> 02:07:49,920
Speaker 2: I still get to play on the new material and

2452
02:07:49,920 --> 02:07:52,160
Speaker 2: I still get to tour, and that's a win win win.

2453
02:07:54,040 --> 02:07:57,280
Speaker 1: Well, let's say that album specifically, although usually the rhythm

2454
02:07:57,400 --> 02:08:01,360
Speaker 1: section is early he records, so which then us which

2455
02:08:01,560 --> 02:08:06,440
Speaker 1: you know, gigantic. When you're playing on those songs, you say,

2456
02:08:06,520 --> 02:08:08,360
Speaker 1: wait a second, this is something special.

2457
02:08:09,480 --> 02:08:14,280
Speaker 2: Not the case. No, Peter's Peter's songs almost always had

2458
02:08:14,440 --> 02:08:18,040
Speaker 2: or some of the songs had that element of, oh,

2459
02:08:18,120 --> 02:08:20,600
Speaker 2: this could be you notice that this could be a

2460
02:08:20,760 --> 02:08:24,960
Speaker 2: radio play record, not a hit. I'm not the guy

2461
02:08:25,080 --> 02:08:27,120
Speaker 2: to predict that, but oh this is this could be

2462
02:08:27,240 --> 02:08:30,640
Speaker 2: very popular, and one way or another, Peter would sabotage

2463
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:33,000
Speaker 2: that part of that song. So he always did that.

2464
02:08:33,120 --> 02:08:36,120
Speaker 2: He just has it built into him that that the

2465
02:08:36,200 --> 02:08:38,400
Speaker 2: song would get longer and longer, and then eventually that

2466
02:08:38,520 --> 02:08:40,840
Speaker 2: first part would be gone, or the second, the core,

2467
02:08:41,200 --> 02:08:43,760
Speaker 2: whatever it was, the hook, what you might call the hook.

2468
02:08:45,200 --> 02:08:47,320
Speaker 2: Who knows why. I never asked them why, just I

2469
02:08:47,400 --> 02:08:49,400
Speaker 2: saw a lot of them come and go, or we

2470
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:52,120
Speaker 2: recorded them, and then they weren't there on the final album.

2471
02:08:52,560 --> 02:08:55,720
Speaker 2: And it was an exception when Sledgehammer came out. I thought,

2472
02:08:57,520 --> 02:09:00,120
Speaker 2: and I'm not really the expert at the history this,

2473
02:09:00,240 --> 02:09:03,160
Speaker 2: but I believe that we had finished the recording of

2474
02:09:03,200 --> 02:09:07,400
Speaker 2: the album and Peter, in its quirky way, said let's

2475
02:09:07,440 --> 02:09:11,120
Speaker 2: do a song for the next album. And Manukach was

2476
02:09:11,200 --> 02:09:14,240
Speaker 2: literally packing up to go back to Paris, and he

2477
02:09:15,160 --> 02:09:17,960
Speaker 2: set up again and we played one or two takes

2478
02:09:18,040 --> 02:09:21,680
Speaker 2: on what would became Sledgehammer, and I think that wasn't

2479
02:09:21,760 --> 02:09:24,120
Speaker 2: meant for the record, and I think the label heard

2480
02:09:24,160 --> 02:09:26,200
Speaker 2: it and insisted that he put it on the record.

2481
02:09:26,280 --> 02:09:30,760
Speaker 2: So even that one, the Tony Levin opinion, as Peter

2482
02:09:30,840 --> 02:09:34,600
Speaker 2: would have sabotaged it in some way. It may had

2483
02:09:34,640 --> 02:09:37,000
Speaker 2: a five minute introduction to the hook or something like

2484
02:09:37,080 --> 02:09:38,880
Speaker 2: that had he had the chance. But he didn't have

2485
02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:39,280
Speaker 2: the chance.

2486
02:09:40,320 --> 02:09:43,800
Speaker 1: And in terms of recording Peter's music, to what degree

2487
02:09:44,080 --> 02:09:46,480
Speaker 1: is it finished when you show up, or to what

2488
02:09:46,600 --> 02:09:48,600
Speaker 1: degrees it worked out in the studio.

2489
02:09:48,600 --> 02:09:52,080
Speaker 2: It's a very long process with Peter. I'm used to it.

2490
02:09:52,280 --> 02:09:55,840
Speaker 2: It takes a long process and can go on for years.

2491
02:09:55,880 --> 02:09:57,800
Speaker 2: You can keep coming back and playing the same songs,

2492
02:09:58,040 --> 02:10:00,840
Speaker 2: or it could be done. I don't know there and

2493
02:10:01,000 --> 02:10:04,360
Speaker 2: I leave and I don't know is it done this

2494
02:10:04,520 --> 02:10:06,720
Speaker 2: record or will I be in the next decade playing it?

2495
02:10:06,800 --> 02:10:08,600
Speaker 2: And I just take a pretty deep breath. And that's

2496
02:10:08,600 --> 02:10:11,680
Speaker 2: the way it is. And it lies within Peter's sensibility,

2497
02:10:12,280 --> 02:10:14,560
Speaker 2: and I'm not the one who's there day to day

2498
02:10:14,640 --> 02:10:15,760
Speaker 2: to find out how it's going.

2499
02:10:17,040 --> 02:10:20,200
Speaker 1: So in the last thirty years or so, Peter has

2500
02:10:20,320 --> 02:10:23,200
Speaker 1: been less active than he was in the previous fifteen

2501
02:10:23,320 --> 02:10:29,400
Speaker 1: or twenty. So you have to book a schedule. What

2502
02:10:29,520 --> 02:10:30,839
Speaker 1: do you do if Peter calls.

2503
02:10:32,000 --> 02:10:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an element in my life because without question,

2504
02:10:38,520 --> 02:10:41,920
Speaker 2: I want to without question, he's the first priority. I

2505
02:10:41,960 --> 02:10:44,520
Speaker 2: want to be available for Peter's stuff. And if he

2506
02:10:44,760 --> 02:10:47,840
Speaker 2: just book was the kind of person or act or

2507
02:10:47,920 --> 02:10:49,640
Speaker 2: had the kind of management that he decides a way

2508
02:10:49,640 --> 02:10:52,440
Speaker 2: ahead of time, life would be easy. In fact, the

2509
02:10:52,520 --> 02:10:55,720
Speaker 2: two things are coupled that he's my top priority, even

2510
02:10:55,800 --> 02:10:58,480
Speaker 2: over King Crimson, and he's the last one to decide

2511
02:10:58,800 --> 02:11:03,120
Speaker 2: decides because these things need if it's an arena tour,

2512
02:11:03,160 --> 02:11:05,000
Speaker 2: it needs to be booked way ahead of time, but

2513
02:11:05,160 --> 02:11:07,960
Speaker 2: he still decides a little bit on the late side,

2514
02:11:07,960 --> 02:11:10,560
Speaker 2: which makes it very hard, especially did when I was

2515
02:11:10,680 --> 02:11:13,640
Speaker 2: actively touring with Peter and with King Crimson. In fact,

2516
02:11:13,720 --> 02:11:17,360
Speaker 2: when email was invented, the first thing I was early

2517
02:11:17,480 --> 02:11:19,720
Speaker 2: to hear about it, well, when it became I don't

2518
02:11:19,720 --> 02:11:22,480
Speaker 2: know about invented, but when it became popularly used, and

2519
02:11:22,600 --> 02:11:25,400
Speaker 2: I used it to connect the management of King Crimson

2520
02:11:25,440 --> 02:11:27,840
Speaker 2: with the management of Peter Gabriel so they could talk

2521
02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:31,000
Speaker 2: from different countries about the next where I was going

2522
02:11:31,080 --> 02:11:35,280
Speaker 2: to be in October, because otherwise, with phones and time differences,

2523
02:11:35,320 --> 02:11:37,600
Speaker 2: it was very hard to work out, so that, Yes,

2524
02:11:37,680 --> 02:11:39,440
Speaker 2: that's been an element in my life for a long time,

2525
02:11:39,720 --> 02:11:42,760
Speaker 2: and it is now. I haven't heard anything about Peter

2526
02:11:42,960 --> 02:11:45,640
Speaker 2: doing any touring next year, and it's too late to

2527
02:11:45,720 --> 02:11:48,960
Speaker 2: book the spring or the summer. But when hopes, I

2528
02:11:49,040 --> 02:11:51,600
Speaker 2: haven't heard any thing, you think being in the band,

2529
02:11:51,640 --> 02:11:53,720
Speaker 2: I would know, but I don't, And like any fan,

2530
02:11:53,840 --> 02:11:56,040
Speaker 2: I hope there's stuff and I will hold off as

2531
02:11:56,120 --> 02:11:58,560
Speaker 2: long as I can, and then maybe i'll I'll try

2532
02:11:58,640 --> 02:12:00,440
Speaker 2: to contact him and say, are you sure you're not

2533
02:12:00,480 --> 02:12:03,320
Speaker 2: going to do anything. It's a common Oh, here's Tony

2534
02:12:03,680 --> 02:12:06,000
Speaker 2: reaching out to say, next September, I have a thing,

2535
02:12:06,600 --> 02:12:08,960
Speaker 2: what do you think might you be doing something? And

2536
02:12:09,120 --> 02:12:12,560
Speaker 2: often I don't get a definitive answer, but we work

2537
02:12:12,600 --> 02:12:15,080
Speaker 2: it out, and it almost always has worked out that

2538
02:12:15,120 --> 02:12:15,840
Speaker 2: I'm on the tours.

2539
02:12:16,840 --> 02:12:20,120
Speaker 1: Generally speaking, you know, you work with a lot of people.

2540
02:12:21,040 --> 02:12:23,760
Speaker 1: Do they only make contact when they want work or

2541
02:12:23,840 --> 02:12:26,520
Speaker 1: do you maintain like regular contact like Peter could years

2542
02:12:26,560 --> 02:12:29,560
Speaker 1: go by, we don't hear from them or easy checking

2543
02:12:29,640 --> 02:12:31,680
Speaker 1: in or you checking in a regular basis.

2544
02:12:32,240 --> 02:12:35,520
Speaker 2: It's different with everybody. Peter's an old friend. We don't

2545
02:12:35,600 --> 02:12:38,600
Speaker 2: chat often when we're not working together, but the lines

2546
02:12:38,600 --> 02:12:41,360
Speaker 2: are open and we see each other when we can.

2547
02:12:42,200 --> 02:12:45,080
Speaker 2: And Robert Fripp's an old friend and I've worked with

2548
02:12:45,160 --> 02:12:46,919
Speaker 2: him a long time, and I have an open invitation

2549
02:12:47,080 --> 02:12:49,520
Speaker 2: to visit him at his house in England, and I

2550
02:12:49,600 --> 02:12:51,640
Speaker 2: think I took him up on that one time, but

2551
02:12:51,920 --> 02:12:54,280
Speaker 2: it's a little awkward to have the time to do that,

2552
02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:57,440
Speaker 2: so I haven't done it lately, but the good friends.

2553
02:12:57,880 --> 02:13:00,800
Speaker 2: So it varies a lot with different people. When I'm

2554
02:13:00,840 --> 02:13:02,800
Speaker 2: going to be in La soon rehearsing for a long time,

2555
02:13:02,840 --> 02:13:06,000
Speaker 2: and I will indeed have a few breakfasts and dinners

2556
02:13:06,040 --> 02:13:09,840
Speaker 2: if I can with some recording artists who I've become

2557
02:13:09,880 --> 02:13:11,040
Speaker 2: friends with and who I've worked with.

2558
02:13:12,720 --> 02:13:15,400
Speaker 1: And to what degree do you think about legacy.

2559
02:13:17,480 --> 02:13:21,600
Speaker 2: I don't think about that. I'm lucky, as if you

2560
02:13:21,720 --> 02:13:23,640
Speaker 2: heard me say a few times, I'm so lucky to

2561
02:13:23,680 --> 02:13:25,680
Speaker 2: be doing what I'm doing and to be able to

2562
02:13:25,760 --> 02:13:29,600
Speaker 2: have done a career of it, and I have visions

2563
02:13:29,640 --> 02:13:31,920
Speaker 2: of being able to do it into the future, indefinitely

2564
02:13:32,160 --> 02:13:34,600
Speaker 2: crazy visions, and so that's enough for me. I'm lucky

2565
02:13:34,600 --> 02:13:34,920
Speaker 2: about that.

2566
02:13:36,000 --> 02:13:39,160
Speaker 1: So the world has changed because no music disappears with

2567
02:13:39,280 --> 02:13:43,000
Speaker 1: the Internet and streaming services, whereas in the old days.

2568
02:13:43,040 --> 02:13:47,840
Speaker 1: You know, old records might disappear. If you're eighty eight

2569
02:13:48,280 --> 02:13:51,920
Speaker 1: and everybody else's passed and there's a club and there

2570
02:13:51,920 --> 02:13:54,200
Speaker 1: are going to be fifty people there, are you going

2571
02:13:54,280 --> 02:13:55,440
Speaker 1: to show up and play.

2572
02:13:57,080 --> 02:13:59,240
Speaker 2: When you say everybody has passed him and everyone in

2573
02:13:59,320 --> 02:13:59,640
Speaker 2: the band.

2574
02:14:00,800 --> 02:14:03,720
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is you are a musician

2575
02:14:03,880 --> 02:14:06,920
Speaker 1: to a great degree. Other people are calling for you

2576
02:14:07,040 --> 02:14:09,760
Speaker 1: to play in their bands. Some of these you're always

2577
02:14:09,760 --> 02:14:11,320
Speaker 1: in the band, like Peter Gabriel, but it's not like

2578
02:14:11,400 --> 02:14:14,480
Speaker 1: he's working every year. What I'm trying to say is,

2579
02:14:14,920 --> 02:14:18,040
Speaker 1: certainly in the old days when the records were unavailable,

2580
02:14:18,080 --> 02:14:20,839
Speaker 1: there's some people say I'm not going to do it anymore.

2581
02:14:21,400 --> 02:14:23,480
Speaker 1: There are other people who stayed on as long as

2582
02:14:23,560 --> 02:14:26,920
Speaker 1: someone was willing to pay them. They were out there.

2583
02:14:28,720 --> 02:14:31,160
Speaker 2: Of the ladder. But it's not correct to say as

2584
02:14:31,160 --> 02:14:33,320
Speaker 2: long as someone's willing to pay, as long as there's

2585
02:14:33,320 --> 02:14:36,200
Speaker 2: good music to be made. Like all my friends who

2586
02:14:36,440 --> 02:14:40,360
Speaker 2: are musicians, with one exception, like all of them, we're

2587
02:14:40,400 --> 02:14:43,560
Speaker 2: going to do it. If we're able to bend the

2588
02:14:43,640 --> 02:14:46,360
Speaker 2: knees and have to walk to that walk onto stage,

2589
02:14:46,600 --> 02:14:48,040
Speaker 2: and the music is good, we're going to do it.

2590
02:14:48,240 --> 02:14:50,760
Speaker 2: The one exception is Bill Rufford, my band made in

2591
02:14:50,840 --> 02:14:55,320
Speaker 2: King Crimson in the eighties, who not bizarrely because it's

2592
02:14:55,360 --> 02:14:57,600
Speaker 2: a normal human thing, but he decided to retire from

2593
02:14:57,640 --> 02:15:01,440
Speaker 2: touring and from playing music. And it's totally unusual in

2594
02:15:01,680 --> 02:15:05,360
Speaker 2: my genre, in their genre I live in, and among musicians,

2595
02:15:05,400 --> 02:15:07,400
Speaker 2: he's the only guy I know who did that or

2596
02:15:07,480 --> 02:15:10,840
Speaker 2: would do that, and bless him is his decision to make,

2597
02:15:10,920 --> 02:15:13,480
Speaker 2: and it's kind of to people who are a professor,

2598
02:15:13,560 --> 02:15:16,480
Speaker 2: it's a normal decision, but us musicians, we musicians tend

2599
02:15:16,560 --> 02:15:19,360
Speaker 2: to want to do it until they pull the instrument

2600
02:15:19,440 --> 02:15:21,960
Speaker 2: out of our fingers or we can't bend our fingers anymore.

2601
02:15:23,120 --> 02:15:26,240
Speaker 1: And to what did we Let's assume you're on a

2602
02:15:26,920 --> 02:15:31,400
Speaker 1: you know, a family trip. Can you go without playing

2603
02:15:31,520 --> 02:15:34,000
Speaker 1: the instrument for a week, or you're the type of

2604
02:15:34,040 --> 02:15:35,760
Speaker 1: person who says me and I got to play it

2605
02:15:35,840 --> 02:15:38,320
Speaker 1: and when you're home, how much do you practice?

2606
02:15:39,960 --> 02:15:43,080
Speaker 2: I don't practice is very much. I ought to practice more.

2607
02:15:43,160 --> 02:15:46,120
Speaker 2: In some years I practiced more than others. A couple

2608
02:15:46,200 --> 02:15:48,800
Speaker 2: of years ago, I started taking base lessons online. I've

2609
02:15:48,800 --> 02:15:51,120
Speaker 2: got a great kick out of that, and I learned

2610
02:15:51,120 --> 02:15:56,000
Speaker 2: a lot. I'm fine not playing for really any amount

2611
02:15:56,000 --> 02:15:58,720
Speaker 2: of time. It's what I do, and work will come

2612
02:15:58,760 --> 02:16:00,960
Speaker 2: in or work on my own music, and then when

2613
02:16:01,000 --> 02:16:03,880
Speaker 2: I come back I have learned through the years. I've learned, Okay,

2614
02:16:03,880 --> 02:16:06,480
Speaker 2: if I've been two weeks without playing, then it's going

2615
02:16:06,560 --> 02:16:08,560
Speaker 2: to be three days or something like that of playing

2616
02:16:08,600 --> 02:16:11,560
Speaker 2: before I have it back. And since I'm on the subject,

2617
02:16:12,640 --> 02:16:16,400
Speaker 2: the biggest technical thing about coming back is playing jazz.

2618
02:16:16,440 --> 02:16:19,240
Speaker 2: When I haven't been playing jazz for some reason, the

2619
02:16:19,400 --> 02:16:22,480
Speaker 2: technical thing of my fingers is very different. So I

2620
02:16:22,560 --> 02:16:26,520
Speaker 2: could be playing my butt off for six months with

2621
02:16:26,600 --> 02:16:29,360
Speaker 2: King Crimson and I come back and go out on

2622
02:16:29,400 --> 02:16:32,360
Speaker 2: the road with my brother playing jazz, and I need

2623
02:16:32,760 --> 02:16:35,320
Speaker 2: a week a full week of playing every day before that,

2624
02:16:35,840 --> 02:16:39,119
Speaker 2: or I just don't sound good. So the switch from

2625
02:16:39,600 --> 02:16:42,200
Speaker 2: rock to jazz is a profound one. But the switch

2626
02:16:42,240 --> 02:16:45,400
Speaker 2: from not playing at all to rock is only a

2627
02:16:45,480 --> 02:16:48,760
Speaker 2: few days for me, and to play jazz again it

2628
02:16:48,760 --> 02:16:49,480
Speaker 2: would be a whole week.

2629
02:16:50,240 --> 02:16:52,920
Speaker 1: Speaking of fingers, what's this funk fingers thing?

2630
02:16:54,440 --> 02:16:57,440
Speaker 2: On the SO album in nineteen eighty five, on one

2631
02:16:57,520 --> 02:17:00,600
Speaker 2: track called Big Time, I ask Jerry Marauder, the drummer,

2632
02:17:01,240 --> 02:17:05,240
Speaker 2: if he would drum on the bass strings while I

2633
02:17:05,360 --> 02:17:08,240
Speaker 2: fingered the left hand. While I'm saying this, I'm showing

2634
02:17:08,320 --> 02:17:13,320
Speaker 2: you the funk fingers. So that piece, Big Time came

2635
02:17:13,360 --> 02:17:16,160
Speaker 2: out fine. And then the year after, we were touring

2636
02:17:16,240 --> 02:17:20,160
Speaker 2: with Peter Gabriel in nineteen eighty six, and I found

2637
02:17:20,200 --> 02:17:22,600
Speaker 2: that I couldn't play the darn part. I held one

2638
02:17:22,720 --> 02:17:24,920
Speaker 2: drumstick in my right hand. I'm trying to play that,

2639
02:17:25,000 --> 02:17:28,040
Speaker 2: and I was practicing all the time, maybe obnoxiously, and

2640
02:17:28,160 --> 02:17:30,280
Speaker 2: one day Peter Gabriel walked by me at soundcheck and

2641
02:17:30,320 --> 02:17:33,480
Speaker 2: looked at me and said, when you put two drumsticks

2642
02:17:33,520 --> 02:17:37,200
Speaker 2: on your fingers. So Peter, in that moment, invented what

2643
02:17:37,320 --> 02:17:40,039
Speaker 2: I later called funk fingers. I had my bass tech,

2644
02:17:40,120 --> 02:17:42,440
Speaker 2: Andy Moore, make them up and we did a lot

2645
02:17:42,480 --> 02:17:45,440
Speaker 2: of experimenting with stretch velcrow and dipping them in rubber

2646
02:17:45,840 --> 02:17:47,560
Speaker 2: so they didn't break the strings, so they had some

2647
02:17:47,760 --> 02:17:50,560
Speaker 2: rubber factor to them, and I played them ever since.

2648
02:17:50,680 --> 02:17:52,320
Speaker 2: Not a great deal, but I played them on one

2649
02:17:52,400 --> 02:17:56,400
Speaker 2: track on my new album, and I played them I

2650
02:17:56,440 --> 02:17:58,920
Speaker 2: don't know the odds, maybe one out of fifteen tracks

2651
02:17:58,959 --> 02:17:59,880
Speaker 2: that I do for other people.

2652
02:18:01,000 --> 02:18:03,280
Speaker 1: Okay, so they're like five or six for those you

2653
02:18:03,360 --> 02:18:06,160
Speaker 1: can't see the zudio, only they have a little finger attachment.

2654
02:18:06,240 --> 02:18:08,560
Speaker 1: Then it looks like, you know, a piece of plastic.

2655
02:18:08,680 --> 02:18:09,520
Speaker 1: What actually is it?

2656
02:18:09,959 --> 02:18:13,640
Speaker 2: It's a drumstick. These last sometimes they're red, these new ones,

2657
02:18:13,680 --> 02:18:19,200
Speaker 2: but usually they're drumstick colored. And the end is dipped

2658
02:18:19,240 --> 02:18:23,400
Speaker 2: in very weird stuff called tool handle dip, really weird

2659
02:18:23,440 --> 02:18:26,360
Speaker 2: stuff that you just dip something in it, for instance

2660
02:18:26,400 --> 02:18:29,560
Speaker 2: a hammer handle, and it comes out as rubber as

2661
02:18:29,600 --> 02:18:31,320
Speaker 2: soon as you take it away from the can as dry.

2662
02:18:31,400 --> 02:18:33,960
Speaker 2: And that's weird, but that's I found that to be

2663
02:18:34,040 --> 02:18:36,040
Speaker 2: the perfect product for the end, to make it so

2664
02:18:36,640 --> 02:18:38,400
Speaker 2: it doesn't actually break the bass strings. I did a

2665
02:18:38,440 --> 02:18:40,640
Speaker 2: lot of experimenting. If it was the string, the sticks

2666
02:18:40,680 --> 02:18:42,360
Speaker 2: are too heavy, they break the strings. If they were

2667
02:18:42,400 --> 02:18:44,720
Speaker 2: too light, they bounce in a way that you can't control.

2668
02:18:45,280 --> 02:18:48,400
Speaker 2: If the stretched velcrow was too tight, my fingers turned purple.

2669
02:18:48,440 --> 02:18:50,800
Speaker 2: If it was too loose, the sticks would go flying

2670
02:18:50,840 --> 02:18:52,920
Speaker 2: into the audience, which they have done a lot. And

2671
02:18:53,040 --> 02:18:57,400
Speaker 2: when I got it right, which is stretching adjustable vel crow,

2672
02:18:57,720 --> 02:18:59,080
Speaker 2: when I got it right, I got a guy to

2673
02:18:59,120 --> 02:19:01,000
Speaker 2: make a whole bunch of them. My hope was in

2674
02:19:01,080 --> 02:19:03,800
Speaker 2: the beginning, which would have been in the late eighties

2675
02:19:04,240 --> 02:19:06,040
Speaker 2: that a lot of bass players would just get them.

2676
02:19:06,080 --> 02:19:08,560
Speaker 2: I think I sawd them for ten dollars online somehow,

2677
02:19:08,800 --> 02:19:11,440
Speaker 2: I don't remember through what mechanism. So I hoped a

2678
02:19:11,480 --> 02:19:13,240
Speaker 2: lot of players would use them and play them, and

2679
02:19:13,360 --> 02:19:16,280
Speaker 2: that didn't turn out to be the case. I'm sure

2680
02:19:16,520 --> 02:19:18,800
Speaker 2: a few guys, a few guys, a few bass players

2681
02:19:18,879 --> 02:19:20,880
Speaker 2: have them, and I hope they're using them, and I

2682
02:19:21,000 --> 02:19:21,720
Speaker 2: use them quite a bit.

2683
02:19:22,720 --> 02:19:26,360
Speaker 1: And what's the difference between and your feelings about pick

2684
02:19:26,520 --> 02:19:27,320
Speaker 1: versus fingers.

2685
02:19:29,120 --> 02:19:32,680
Speaker 2: I've never been. I wasn't. I didn't come up playing pick,

2686
02:19:32,760 --> 02:19:35,080
Speaker 2: so I'm not very good at it. Sometimes if that's

2687
02:19:35,160 --> 02:19:37,080
Speaker 2: the sound that I hear for that piece, then I'm

2688
02:19:37,080 --> 02:19:38,680
Speaker 2: going to play with a pick and hope that I

2689
02:19:38,760 --> 02:19:42,240
Speaker 2: can work it out. That happens sometimes lately not so much.

2690
02:19:43,920 --> 02:19:48,760
Speaker 2: I think thinking back to Don't Give Up, Peter Gabriel's thing,

2691
02:19:48,800 --> 02:19:50,200
Speaker 2: I think on the record, I did play it with

2692
02:19:50,320 --> 02:19:52,840
Speaker 2: a pick. It just seemed like the right piece, the

2693
02:19:52,959 --> 02:19:55,600
Speaker 2: right sound for that. But as soon as I got

2694
02:19:55,760 --> 02:19:58,160
Speaker 2: playing live, I found a way with thinkers to make

2695
02:19:58,240 --> 02:20:02,000
Speaker 2: it feel good. By the way the song Don't Give Up,

2696
02:20:02,080 --> 02:20:04,400
Speaker 2: I had mentioned my daughter being thirty nine, so in

2697
02:20:04,520 --> 02:20:08,240
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five. There she was with me two months

2698
02:20:08,280 --> 02:20:11,760
Speaker 2: old in the studio in England and her mother and

2699
02:20:11,800 --> 02:20:15,920
Speaker 2: I had packed diapers into the base case because naively

2700
02:20:16,000 --> 02:20:18,560
Speaker 2: I thought, well diapers, England doesn't know how to do diapers,

2701
02:20:18,720 --> 02:20:21,160
Speaker 2: so we had pampers in the base case and on

2702
02:20:21,280 --> 02:20:23,760
Speaker 2: that piece. Don't give up. When I was looking around

2703
02:20:24,200 --> 02:20:26,280
Speaker 2: the last part of the piece. It has a different feel,

2704
02:20:26,640 --> 02:20:29,600
Speaker 2: different groove, which frankly we did later after we had

2705
02:20:29,640 --> 02:20:31,879
Speaker 2: the first part of it, and I was looking around

2706
02:20:31,920 --> 02:20:34,400
Speaker 2: for some dampening material and I saw those diapers and

2707
02:20:34,480 --> 02:20:37,240
Speaker 2: I put a diaper a pamper under the strings the

2708
02:20:37,360 --> 02:20:41,440
Speaker 2: sound which Peter Gabriel quickly named the super Nappy bass sound.

2709
02:20:42,000 --> 02:20:45,360
Speaker 2: And I have to smile when I think about my

2710
02:20:45,520 --> 02:20:48,840
Speaker 2: daughter Maggie now hearing that piece and knowing it goes

2711
02:20:48,920 --> 02:20:51,040
Speaker 2: back to the very beginning of her life that she

2712
02:20:51,200 --> 02:20:53,560
Speaker 2: was connected with dad on the road and dad recording

2713
02:20:53,600 --> 02:20:54,359
Speaker 2: with Peter Gabriel.

2714
02:20:55,600 --> 02:20:58,160
Speaker 1: And tell me about taking bas lessons online.

2715
02:20:58,800 --> 02:21:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Scott's base less and I recommend them. They're great,

2716
02:21:01,480 --> 02:21:04,120
Speaker 2: and I take a peek at them once in a while.

2717
02:21:04,160 --> 02:21:07,440
Speaker 2: And I decided a few years ago, while I was

2718
02:21:07,480 --> 02:21:10,199
Speaker 2: touring with King Crimson and the other guys were practicing

2719
02:21:10,280 --> 02:21:14,040
Speaker 2: in the other rooms. I was taking actually beginner, not beginner,

2720
02:21:14,120 --> 02:21:18,320
Speaker 2: but basic the basics of bass playing, like how to

2721
02:21:18,440 --> 02:21:20,920
Speaker 2: hit the how to pluck the string and things like that.

2722
02:21:21,080 --> 02:21:24,640
Speaker 2: So I'm in my dressing room playing one note at

2723
02:21:24,680 --> 02:21:26,720
Speaker 2: a time on the same note for five minutes, just

2724
02:21:26,840 --> 02:21:28,760
Speaker 2: one note with one finger, and then I go on

2725
02:21:28,840 --> 02:21:31,600
Speaker 2: stage and play King Crimson concert, which is pretty complicated,

2726
02:21:31,920 --> 02:21:35,160
Speaker 2: and I appreciated the irony of that, but also I learned.

2727
02:21:35,200 --> 02:21:39,000
Speaker 2: And the fact is I confronted the fact that I

2728
02:21:39,200 --> 02:21:42,000
Speaker 2: was trained as an upright player, which is a different

2729
02:21:42,040 --> 02:21:45,240
Speaker 2: technique than the electric bass, and when I switched to

2730
02:21:45,320 --> 02:21:47,920
Speaker 2: having frets, there were no teachers to show me, Oh,

2731
02:21:47,959 --> 02:21:49,320
Speaker 2: here's the way you do that. So I just did

2732
02:21:49,360 --> 02:21:52,080
Speaker 2: it whatever way I did it, not necessarily the best way.

2733
02:21:52,120 --> 02:21:54,720
Speaker 2: And it's good to finally be aware of some of

2734
02:21:54,760 --> 02:21:57,800
Speaker 2: the options, of technic technical options of how you can

2735
02:21:57,879 --> 02:22:04,720
Speaker 2: do that. Okay, so this is youtubeh No, Yes, some

2736
02:22:04,840 --> 02:22:05,920
Speaker 2: of the clips are on YouTube.

2737
02:22:06,000 --> 02:22:09,160
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, Just so I know for people who are interested,

2738
02:22:09,720 --> 02:22:12,800
Speaker 1: this is lessons that you pay for and you watch videos.

2739
02:22:12,879 --> 02:22:13,720
Speaker 1: What exactly is it?

2740
02:22:14,000 --> 02:22:16,560
Speaker 2: Either one you can see Scott's based lessons. He's an

2741
02:22:16,640 --> 02:22:20,560
Speaker 2: excellent teacher, more than anybody I've met. He understands the

2742
02:22:20,720 --> 02:22:23,920
Speaker 2: technique behind playing this simple instrument in the electric bass

2743
02:22:24,280 --> 02:22:26,800
Speaker 2: and so yes, you can see clips on YouTube. But

2744
02:22:26,920 --> 02:22:30,240
Speaker 2: I contacted the website and what I don't know how

2745
02:22:30,240 --> 02:22:34,119
Speaker 2: you call I subscribed to a series of twelve lessons,

2746
02:22:34,160 --> 02:22:36,000
Speaker 2: I think twelve hour long lessons.

2747
02:22:36,280 --> 02:22:38,560
Speaker 1: Does Scott know you're taking his lessons?

2748
02:22:39,840 --> 02:22:40,240
Speaker 2: I think so.

2749
02:22:40,520 --> 02:22:40,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2750
02:22:41,040 --> 02:22:44,200
Speaker 2: I haven't spoken indirectly, but I've spoken to one of

2751
02:22:44,280 --> 02:22:48,560
Speaker 2: his co teachers who does know. But I did buy it.

2752
02:22:48,640 --> 02:22:49,800
Speaker 2: I don't want to be given it.

2753
02:22:52,160 --> 02:22:54,360
Speaker 1: Tony. I want to thank you so much for talking

2754
02:22:54,480 --> 02:22:57,920
Speaker 1: to me and my audience. Amazing thing is seen you

2755
02:22:58,040 --> 02:23:01,040
Speaker 1: on stage in a video a million time, and you

2756
02:23:01,240 --> 02:23:05,320
Speaker 1: have sort of a dark persona, which as a regular

2757
02:23:05,440 --> 02:23:09,520
Speaker 1: person that's not the case whatsoever. Kind of shocking. You've

2758
02:23:09,560 --> 02:23:11,960
Speaker 1: been very open and honest. I want to thank you

2759
02:23:12,080 --> 02:23:13,280
Speaker 1: again for talking with me.

2760
02:23:13,720 --> 02:23:15,400
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Maybe you just caught me on

2761
02:23:15,520 --> 02:23:18,400
Speaker 2: a good day when the dark persona is not there.

2762
02:23:18,480 --> 02:23:22,240
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I appreciate your expertise and the

2763
02:23:22,280 --> 02:23:24,560
Speaker 2: wisdom behind your questions. I really do appreciate that.

2764
02:23:24,879 --> 02:23:28,200
Speaker 1: So thank you for having me okay, you know he's

2765
02:23:28,240 --> 02:23:30,400
Speaker 1: got a new album. You definitely want to see the

2766
02:23:30,440 --> 02:23:33,480
Speaker 1: beat on the road. In any event, that's been Tony

2767
02:23:33,600 --> 02:23:37,200
Speaker 1: Levin with Bob left sets. Till next time. Thanks,