WEBVTT - Shutting Off the Internet 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.840 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:08.920 It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:17.880 tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello again, everyone, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.480 Welcome to tech Stuff. My name is Chris Pullett. I'm 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.320 an editor at how stuff works dot com and as usual, 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.440 sitting across from me is senior writer Jonathan Strickland. Change 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.480 the scheme, al to the mood, electrify the boys and girls, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:34.000 if you'd be so kind, all right, then I have 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:38.600 to say he's got the presentation down at least I 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.120 think so. Thank you. You can't see it, so there 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.400 was a lot of arm gestures in there that was 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:49.040 there's a little there's a little flailing, um. But I 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:50.920 was not. I was not all lit up for that 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.800 particular quote. So if you know where that quote comes from, 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.080 you know why I said that. But we're gonna talk 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:58.920 about something actually a little serious, actually quite a bit 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.360 serious today, um, something that has been in the news 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:06.039 recently at the time of the recording of this podcast, 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:10.560 which is very early February two eleven, and that is 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.840 the idea of an Internet kill switch, some sort of 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:21.080 ability for a person or government or organization to shut 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.959 down the Internet or at least are access to the 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:30.320 Internet right now. What spurred this was the events in 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:34.600 Egypt that are going on. As Jonathan and I are 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.360 actually recording this. Um, I'm sure by the time you 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:39.640 are will be listening to this, the the fallout will 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.760 still be uh relevant to what's going on. Sure, but 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.959 one of the things if you are not paying attention 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.040 to current events in the world right now, you may 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:54.640 be unaware that there have been in late January and 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:59.040 early February two thousand eleven, series of protests by people 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:03.400 who have have been asking the Egyptian president Hostni Mubarak 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:09.000 to step down from office. Um. He he has as 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.720 of this point been in office for more than thirty years, 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:16.440 I believe, took office after the president Onwar Sadat was assassinated, 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:22.920 which I remember from my grade school days. Um so um. 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:24.880 You know, he may be saying, what does this have 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.720 to do with technology? Well, in an order in order 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:36.000 to prevent uh the ability of people who are protesting 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:41.240 the governments really really protesting and asking Mubarak to step 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:46.240 down from organizing using Internet based tools such as social 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:52.000 networking sites Twitter, Facebook, etcetera. Um, the Egyptian government basically 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:57.920 shut off access to the internet, um two people within 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.919 the country. Now there was one network that stayed up 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:06.320 a little longer um than the rest I believe it 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.840 was the NOR group was able to uh provide Internet 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.079 access a little bit after that, but they eventually went 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.240 dark as well, and the the the Internet was down 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:21.040 for about five days within within Egypt. UM. And UH. 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.560 The reason this is uh, the reason this is valid 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:28.600 to many of us who are listening in the United States. UM, 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.400 it had been proposed I guess really two thousand ten, 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:37.760 the possibility that to prevent uh cyber attacks on certain 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:43.120 infrastructure electronic infrastructure in the United States, that the President 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:44.880 of the United States would be given the ability to 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:51.160 shut down parts of the Internet within the company the country. Theoretically. 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.160 Now the question is can that really be done? Right? 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:59.280 So let's let's clear up a couple of things, because 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.320 obviously the case in Egypt got a lot of people 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.560 worried because the thought was, well, what if our government, 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.240 what if the United States government? Of course, Chris and 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.080 I are in the United States, so that's why when 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.200 I say our government, I'm talking about them. Uh. What 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:17.440 if what if the government for some reason wanted to 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:23.680 try and suppress civilian communication. Uh, would this give them 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.919 give the government the power, specifically the president, the power 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:31.320 to to make communication lines go dark? And it You know, 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:33.880 it's a scary thought because so much of what we 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.599 do now depends upon the Internet in one way or another. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.279 It may not even directly depend on it, but indirectly 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:45.559 it will. And so people have gotten really sensitive about 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.839 the subject. Uh. The government, for its part, has said 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.760 that a lot of the fear is based upon misinterpretations 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.480 of the The proposed act, which is called the Protecting 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:02.400 Cyberspace as a National Asset Act. It was introduced by 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.520 Joseph Lieberman. Yes, and it was introduced originally in June 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:15.560 of It has since undergone revisions which somewhat define some 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:19.160 of the terms to a greater extent because the original 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:25.159 act had some loose language that definitely had people scared. Yeah, 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.440 But like Chris was saying, that the intent of the Act, 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:32.000 at least as it is worded, is not to you 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:36.360 be able to manipulate the Internet in order to hamper 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:41.599 communication among citizens or to infringe upon First Amendment rights. 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.240 It is, as he was saying, to protect our infrastructure 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.719 in the case of a cyber attack, right. I think 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:56.360 people have interpreted that to mean that, uh, citizens living 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.160 within the United States would not be able to access 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:04.640 the Internet at all anymore. And I think the if 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.839 I have read the Act correctly, what the uh the 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:13.840 intent is actually to shut down links to certain infrastructure 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:18.000 items from the Internet. So wouldn't keep people off the Internet. 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.160 It would say, if you had an electric you know, 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.360 electric station that were connected to the Internet, it would 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.159 shut access off between the electric and the electric generating 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.440 station and the Internet so that it could not be reached. 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.760 UM that way, now, I mean, that's that's the way 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.800 I've I've read it as a matter of fact. Um. UH. 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:42.599 Senator Lieberman and ranking Member Susan Collins and Senator Tom 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:49.000 Carper actually released a statement on February first about, uh, 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.760 you know, drawing the parallel between the situation in Egypt 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:59.280 and this act, and they denounced the the Mubart government's 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:06.000 actions in shutting down all Internet communications in Egypt UM 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.520 and attempted to clarify on that and for for instance, 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:14.640 they mentioned that the Communications Act of four UM does 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:21.480 give the president some control over radio communications providers, wire providers, 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:26.080 the wire people don't use it that way. But yeah, yeah, 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:31.080 that Their point was that the that act um Act 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.720 was would give the president such broad powers as to 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:38.880 in effect allow the president to do what we're talking 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:43.280 about right now is control or shut down sections of 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:50.160 the Internet, um under certain situations and so communications channels, right, 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.840 and and part of that depends upon you interpreting the 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:58.720 Act to extend to Internet communication. I mean, it's it's 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.760 not as clearly when the when it was written in 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:05.680 it was not about the Internet, right, I mean, it 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:11.960 was about telegraphs and telephone lines mainly. UM. The to 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.480 to to extend it to the Internet now would require 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.760 a little bit of interpretation, and I'm sure you would 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.760 have people challenging saying this goes beyond the intent of 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:25.320 the original Act. But intent and letter sometimes get a 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:30.720 little muddied in these situations. So Lieberman's point was that 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:36.680 the the Asset Act was really to to define the 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:40.840 limitations and the specific situations in which the president could 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.240 use this power, as opposed to one which was much 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:51.240 more broad. Yes, specifically the bill, at least according to 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.360 the statement in the clarification that was speaking of just 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:59.000 a moment ago um. They they issued a series of clarifications, 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.120 one being that it supposed to be the most critical 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:07.120 assets available to the Internet, including infrastructure to run the 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.439 country and the economy. Also, it has to be I'm 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.360 sering no, no, I was gonna say, I actually have 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.680 the definition for that because it comes from the US 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:20.520 Patriot Act. The critical infrastructure is defined in this UH way. 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.559 It says the term critical infrastructure means systems and assets, 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:28.040 whether physical or virtual, so vital to the United States 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.520 that the incapacity or destruction of such systems and assets 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:35.960 would have a debilitating impact on security, national economic security, 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:41.800 national public health, or safety, or any combination of those matters. Now, UH, 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:46.840 the the Asset Act that Lieberman introduced further defines it 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.040 and actually adds in some stuff that made some people nervous, 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:55.480 including UH information providers, which could essentially be I s 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:00.240 s um he he went on in the state meant 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:04.560 to say that it would require the president to if 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.360 there was an ongoing or imminent attack that's a quote, 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.360 um that could cause national or regional catastrophic events. That's 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.400 the kind of thing that would have to be going 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:19.120 on for the President to use this power. And UH 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.600 he or she the president UM in this case President Obama, 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.520 but whomever after later on down the road, assuming this 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.160 stays in in place, would have to use the least 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:33.080 disruptive means feasible again a quote UM. They would have 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.000 to notify Congress UM and wouldn't be able to be 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.760 continued for more than a hundred twenty days without approval 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.480 from Congress thirty day blocks up to a hundred twenty days, 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.080 and then at that point you must have Congressional approval 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:51.559 to continue it. And the bill also they, according to 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.920 statement UH, specifically forbids actions that would violate the First 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:01.120 Amendment and would not prevent in net traffic, email, and 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:05.120 other forms of communication unless they're involved with critical infrastructure. 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.400 So if you were you were I am ing a 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:11.320 friend on you know, a social typical social network that 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:16.400 would not be considered critical infrastructure, you should theoretically um 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.000 be able to continue to do that. Yeah, you should 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.079 still be able to use things like Facebook or Twitter 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:25.640 to to organize groups and to you know, do whatever 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:27.319 it is you want to do to have those those 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:34.360 peaceable uh public gatherings, that kind of thing. The another 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:42.160 element I remember reading about was that when we're telling 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:47.000 critical infrastructure that The example they use was Hoover Dam. Yes, right, yes, 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.160 but yeah, that's what we're really talking about. What we're 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:51.880 talking about critical infrastructure. We're talking about things like power grids, 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:57.520 water supply, water supply, nuclear power plants, the military infrasture, 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:02.240 military infrastructures, Yes, stuff that were it to be compromised, 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:06.040 would mean a terrible, terrible outcome for the citizens in 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.400 the United States of America. Right, I assume they o. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:10.920 Also when they mentioned economy, we're talking about things like 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.080 Wall Street, the stock exchanges and things like that, they 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.000 would want to be careful to protect that infrastructure as well. 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.440 And if we apply a little critical thinking to this 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:26.360 situation and really think about, you know, is is this 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.680 is what the government is telling us? Is that really 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.120 what they mean? Like, in other words, does it really 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.160 you know? Because of course we should be skeptical, we 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:38.080 should question our government, but not blindingly, right, we shouldn't 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:42.200 just assume that what they're telling us is a fib 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.840 but we should definitely look into it, look into it, right, 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.959 And so part of the looking into it means, all, right, well, 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.120 do what do I believe that the government would not 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.080 abuse this power in such a way to somehow like 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.720 let's say let's say the wiki leaks. Sure, let's say 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.120 that the government is as, hey, you know what wiki 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:07.719 leaks is, uh is creating a true danger to national security. 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:09.880 So what we're going to do is now command all 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.280 I s I s p s in the United States 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.800 to block wiki leaks so that people in the United 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.160 States can no longer access it. That's that's something that 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.680 people were worried about. Well, under this Act, at least 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:24.360 in theory, you would not be able to do that 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.320 unless there were a real perceived threat, like an actual 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:34.600 cybersecurity attack going on that involved wiki leaks in some way. 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.760 Otherwise you would not be allowed to just tell all 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.240 the ice pas to block it. That doesn't mean that 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.360 an I s P couldn't choose to block it, right, 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.320 I mean they can because those are private companies. Right. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.800 One of the criticisms I've seen of this had nothing 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.600 to do with, um the the potential violation of First 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.440 Amendment rights. It had more to do with why is 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.320 it the government telling private businesses how to protect themselves 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.560 when private businesses are decades ahead of the government as 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:09.000 far as cybersecurity is concerned, Which that that's a viable question. 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:13.280 I mean, you know, the the the kind of extreme 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:17.120 case that I've seen is saying, how can the lawyers 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.360 and the politicians who are part of homeland security, who 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.960 have no experience in I T security at all, how 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.920 can they expect to improve our practices? When we do 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.080 this for a living. This is how we build our business, 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.120 this is how we provide our services. We know how 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.160 to do this. How is someone else who has no 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:40.920 experience in this going to help? That's a that's a 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.120 legitimate question. You could ask, well, why does the president 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.280 need this power in the first place? Because let's say 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.560 that you are an engineer at Hoover Dawn and you 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.760 detect that there is some sort of cyber intruder or 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:58.560 a threat to the infrastructure, the computer infrastructure at Hoover down. 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.880 There's a a good chance that engineer is going to say, 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:03.640 you know what, we need to shut this down. We 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.360 have to close off our our our ports portals to 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.720 the outside world as far as the virtual port portals 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.920 are concerned, and and take care of this problem. Why 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:18.400 is there a need for a government intervention? And that's 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.280 a good question to ask, you know, that's that's probably 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.760 a more appropriate question to ask rather than is the 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:29.400 government going to shut down Facebook, because that's less likely 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.200 to happen. And I think that again, when you think 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:37.720 about this critically, the government taking strides to say shut 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.280 down the Internet. Let's let's take the most extreme case 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.760 that the government for some reason has decided to shut 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.760 down our access to the Internet so that no one 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.840 in the United States can now get on any sort 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:55.600 of Internet service. UM, there would be chaos and there 0:15:55.600 --> 0:16:01.600 would be there. You would not solve it problems that way, right, right, 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.400 that would just create even more anger and distrust in 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:09.800 the public. I don't I can't imagine any sane government 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.440 official saying this is a good idea, because there's very 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.160 little chance that a positive outcome will will happen as 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.720 a result of it, right, And I think I think 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:25.200 to some degree, we've seen that in what happened in Egypt. UM. 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:31.119 Not only that, but people in Egypt found unique ways 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:36.520 to continue getting their message across UM. I was doing 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.760 some reading in preparation for the podcast about some of 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.360 the things that they were doing. UM. You know, they 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.080 were using. They were initially using the tools that that 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:51.280 so many of us use, different messaging UM and social 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:56.680 networking tools. But when the Internet blockage came down. UM. 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.960 As a matter of fact, I was reading on our 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.120 recaled by Ellen or Mills who wrote that on in 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.000 January twenty six, one of the c net writers and UM. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.119 She said that people were using you know, regular phones, 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.440 fax machines, Ham radio. Remember we did our our podcast 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.560 on on Ham Radio sometime ago. Now, UM, you know, 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.159 even dial up modem usage started to go up again, 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:26.200 so so people had had access to those tools. UM. 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.040 You know, they didn't shut down the phone networks, just 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.040 the Internet, at least I didn't read anything that indicated 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.560 that they shut down the traditional phone networks. And in addition, 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:41.600 Google on Twitter UM started a service for posting tweets 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.159 without an Internet connection. Basically, uh speak to tweet allowed 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.439 people to say what they wanted to say, and it 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.639 would it would transfer it to a Twitter message with 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.320 the hashtag Egypt added on to the end of it. 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:02.360 So it you know, outside organizations were actually helping protesters 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.680 get the word out. So I mean, I think it 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:09.040 would be very difficult UM to shut it down completely. 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.200 And in some cases too, I believe they were using 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.920 mash networks UM, which I can't remember if we've ever 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:16.720 mentioned that on the podcast, but we definitely need to 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:18.359 do something on that because I think it's really cool. 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.280 One laptop per child also uses mash networks. Um, they're 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:27.040 sort of ad hoc UH networks, usually wireless networks, if 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.679 I'm not mistaken. UM, and uh, they don't use the 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:34.040 typical infrastructure on a lot of cases, places like well 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.920 in places where they use the one laptop per child 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.719 uh product. Um, we're talking about places that don't have 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.879 that infrastructure in place. They don't have hard wired phone 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:50.080 lines and cable connections. UM, so they use these local networks, 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:54.320 local internet network networks that aren't actually connect to the Internet, 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.200 but they are a small wireless network. UM. I shouldn't 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.800 have used internet in net case it. But yeah, I 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.720 mean people would were communicating using those as well. So 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:09.600 I don't think even if the government shut everything down, 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.280 I don't think it would the traditional infrastructure. I don't 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.520 think it would take long before people found new ways 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.520 to get in touch with one another, especially considering the 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:24.240 tools we've been given. And further another point, I would 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.800 I would suggest that says the government would be very 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.520 uh reticent to to take such an extreme action as 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.399 to shut down the Internet. So you've already got the 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.400 one case where you know you would infuriate your citizens 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.600 and you don't really want to do that. There's really yeah, 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.040 how would you make things better after that? Right, especially 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:47.919 if ostensibly your goal is eventually to come out of 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.400 this with a peaceful resolution, you would you would essentially 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.919 end up losing the trust of the citizens and in 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.479 a representative government, that means that your government is no 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.560 longer valid if the citizens no longer trust in the 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:04.199 government that represents them. Um. You know, assuming that you 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:07.760 continue to be a democracy, that pretty much means you 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.080 have guaranteed you are out the door, um as soon 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.800 as possible, in fact, probably before even elections would roll around. 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.520 So that's one part. But another part is the fact 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:24.560 that so many businesses rely upon the Internet, particularly in 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.600 the United States, but all around the world. And of course, 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:32.320 you know, the Internet has made the world a you know, 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:36.679 a global a true global economy. So you've got businesses 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:40.320 that are centered in America that would be deeply affected. 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.679 But you've got businesses in other countries as well that 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:47.240 have interests in America, they have um, they have infrastructure 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:51.919 in America that would be very much affected by the 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.120 Internet being shut down within the borders of the United 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:59.520 States of America. You're talking about losing billions of dollars 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:04.680 worth of revenue and and doing intense economic damage. In fact, 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:07.720 one might be able to argue that shutting down the 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.880 Internet would cause more damage economically than if you had 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.199 let the Internet stay up right like that, you know, 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.720 one of the guidelines to this act is that you 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:21.720 would only invoke it if there were an imminent threat 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:26.320 to national economic security. Well, if you were to shut 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.280 down the whole Internet, you would create that threat. Actually, 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:33.120 So that's the other reason I don't think it's very 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.360 likely to happen in the United States. That doesn't mean 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:39.119 that we wouldn't see this act UH put into place, 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:41.560 or even take an advantage of It's just that I 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:43.560 think we would be more likely to see it the 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:47.280 way that we're told it's intended, right, so that if 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.400 there were a concentrated attacks, say on the Pentagon, that 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.359 the President would have the authority to tell Pentagon officials, 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.720 all right, close off all routes to the Internet until 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.320 we resolve this. Again, you could argue, why does this 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:04.880 even need to be a presidential thing? But you could 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:08.000 also argue, while there, what if you have some company 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:12.600 that is or or some person, some organization there's in 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:17.359 some way UH partnering with these attacks that you know, 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:20.160 maybe it's not that they're the victim, but are rather 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.920 a conspirator, you know, a co conspirator. Well, in that case, 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.520 you do have to maybe rely on a higher authority 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:32.280 than just the company head to take UH, to take 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.080 take control of the situation and to to try and 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:41.320 limit whatever harm could come of it. Um. It's still scary. Yeah, 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:44.320 you know, you see, we've seen this happen before, not 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.600 just in Egypt, we also in Iran. We saw it 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.760 um a couple of years ago where there were the 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:57.199 Iranian protests. Also a lot of people were trying to 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:02.120 um UH organized through Twitter and Facebook, and we saw 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:07.320 that the Iranian government tried to UM confuse the issue 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:11.920 as much as possible, or at least those are the allegations, right. 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:14.160 I mean, it's hard for me to say, I don't 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:17.560 I can't understand the language, so I have to rely 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:19.880 upon the reports I'm seeing, and some of the reports 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:24.439 were not necessarily the most unbiased, so it's hard for 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:26.840 me to draw my conclusions. But that's based upon the 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:32.240 information that I encountered. Yeah, it's um, it definitely shows 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:36.880 how dependent we are on the Internet for all kinds 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:40.480 of things. The the outcry over something like this would 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:46.199 not have been nearly as serious in say, as it 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:50.439 is now because so many people are are you know, 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.119 used the Internet for communication, keeping up with friends and 0:23:53.240 --> 0:24:00.080 family um and uh and for commerce um that you know, 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:03.720 we've we've come to expect that it's you know, I've 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:08.840 actually heard the the the idea thrown out in the 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:12.240 last few days that Internet access may be considered a 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:16.480 human right, which is a wow, that's that's sort of 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:19.520 a topic for another podcast really, but you know, I again, 0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:21.760 I don't think this would have even been considered a 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:24.840 few years ago. And now the idea that you might 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:31.000 have a right to access this you know, amazing communications 0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:35.400 tool that we all use now. Um. You know it's 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:38.560 funny because I wouldn't have necessarily thought of that just 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:41.359 a few years ago, but now so many people are 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:45.080 relying on it that that it is a reasonable debate 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:48.639 to have whether or not it's a um, a human 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:51.680 right to have that kind of access. But these tools 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:56.520 have also made it possible for protesters and demonstrators, whether 0:24:56.560 --> 0:24:59.560 they are peaceful or violent, organize in ways that they 0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:02.480 had haven't been before. So it's scary for governments too. 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:06.359 I mean, the Iranian government had a hard time because 0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:08.959 the mobs or it wasn't it wasn't an Iran, it 0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:12.240 was where it was Belarus. That was even before that, 0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:16.000 where mobs would gather by text message they would say okay, 0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:18.440 be at the square at twelve oh seven. It was 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:20.720 a flash mob. It was a flash mob. People would 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:23.520 show up, they would start to protest, the authorities would 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:25.719 come to crack them, crack down on them, and they 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:29.879 would have already disseminated the location of the next gathering. 0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:32.600 So by the time that the authorities converged on the area, 0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:35.720 they were gone. The protesters had gone, They had converged 0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:38.560 on a new area, and they were they were able 0:25:38.600 --> 0:25:41.159 to stay one or maybe even five steps of the 0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:44.679 authorities by using these tools. It makes sense that a 0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:46.879 government would want to be able to do that in 0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:49.760 those instances. So that I think two is why it 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:52.399