WEBVTT - How an Eclipse Walkout Beat Nestlé 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:11.280 Al Zone Media. It's it could happen here a podcast 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:12.880 where I didn't come up with an intro, So you're 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.600 getting this one. I'm your host, Bia Wong. This is 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:17.800 this is the podcast where actually this is the part 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.599 of the podcast where after things have fallen apart, you 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:24.440 put them back together again. And yeah, the thing that's 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.080 being put back together here. You know, I really I 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:28.800 really should have planned this intro more, but this is 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:30.560 this is what happened. This is what happens when we 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:35.479 get in night recordings. But yeah, the thing, the thing 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:39.880 we're putting together today is a union at a really 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.680 interesting kind of very very interesting kind of coffee shop. 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.680 So with with me to talk about this is Alex 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.360 Rocky and Madeline from Blue Bottle Independent Union. And yeah, 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:51.479 thank you all for joining me. 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:55.560 Yeah, thank you so much for having us. 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:58.840 Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you all. And so 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:01.120 I guess the first thing that I want to start 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:03.840 with is can you talk a bit about what Blue 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.480 Bottle is, because this is a really weird story that 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:09.679 I think kind of reveals a lot about the way 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.440 I don't know, the it is sort of lofty terms, 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:14.600 is like the direction that capital has been moving in 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.840 the past like ten years. Absolutely. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:18.080 Yeah. 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:22.080 So Blue Bottle is a specialty coffee chain founded by 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:26.360 James Freeman in Oakland, California, like two thousand and two. 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.559 Like most specialty shops, starts off as like this small 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.640 little cart where you know, one guy is doing all 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:37.040 the parts of production, roasting, serving the coffee and all that. 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:38.120 And then. 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:44.840 Throughout you know, the early aughts twenty tens, they do 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:49.280 lots of rounds of venture capital financing with like Fidelity 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:55.200 and other firms until twenty seventeen, when Nesley purchased a 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:59.320 sixty eight percent majority ownership in Blue Bottle at I 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:06.000 think a seven hundred million dollar evaluation. And since then, no, no, no, 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.400 the it was a seven hundred million dollar evaluation. They 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:14.000 paid four hundred million dollars too. Yeah, isn't this great? 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.880 And since then they've expanded from you know, the tiny 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.560 little location in California to seventy stores in the US 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.120 and then over one hundred globally, including in China, Japan, 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:31.679 Hong Kong, South Korea, and am I forgetting anywhere else. 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:33.560 I think that's I think that's it. 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.000 Yeah, yeah, it's it's a fun time to be a 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:37.640 coffee worker. 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.240 I guess, Yeah, it's interesting to me the extent to 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:43.600 which this it has. I mean, okay, so like a 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.000 hundred shops is like a lot of shops, but it's 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.120 not seven hundred million dollars of shops. Like it really 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.880 seems like this company has like it really has like 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.160 tech valuation, which is alarming. 0:02:55.880 --> 0:03:00.480 Yeah, and I mean it's not uncommon for specialty right now, 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.320 which is also concerning. Like, as far as I understand, 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.400 Intelligentsia and La Cologne are also owned in part by 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:12.160 venture capital firms, and this is really confusing, especially because 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.400 for anybody that knows anything about like the economics of 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:21.520 coffee shops, the margins are terrible. Yeah, and really, as 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.280 far as I can tell, the only value that Blue 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:28.399 Bottle offers to Nesley is brand and like the ability 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:32.200 to eventually grow to the point where at some point 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:33.919 in the future they'll be able to make a little 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:34.560 bit of money. 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:39.680 Off of it all, which is a deeply weird business strategy. Yeah, 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.480 and so I guess I wanted to start here because 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.640 it feels like a very different organizing terrain than a 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.800 lot of like, you know that a lot of the 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:51.640 shops that we've been that we talked to on this show, 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:57.560 because it's like the value this company is only kind 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.800 of tangentially, you know, all like honest, a macro level, 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.000 the value of the company is like kind of tenuously 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:04.560 connected to your labor. But on the other hand, like 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.920 at the individual shop level, you're still dealing with all 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.080 of the same sort of like you know, like hyper 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:15.200 exploitation and trying to like ring every cent out of stuff. 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:19.080 So so I guess I wanted to start by kind 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:23.280 of asking, like how how did that the weirdness of 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.159 what of what Blue Bottle is influenced? Like how this 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:28.880 campaign started to. 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:30.680 Be pretty frank about our campaign, Like there was a 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:34.160 crop of organizers before Gonzo myself, who I would say 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.920 at this point are kind of the longest running organizers 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.280 on this campaign. Look, there was a crop before us, 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.760 so we joined. We did not start the campaign here 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:47.680 at Blue Bottle, but I think, I mean it was 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.560 difficult in the very beginning, Like you know, blue bottle 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.240 it pays now, like I think starting wage for bristas 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.840 like eighteen an hour. You know, we just got to 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:58.880 pave up in April. So it's like I, you know, 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:02.560 I do make more than minimum wage. It's it can 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:04.080 be a tough sell for people to be like, oh, 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:06.400 but you know it's like marginally better, Like, oh, I'm 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.720 working at this like fancy coffee shop, don't they treat 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.560 us a little better? Like? But when you look at 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.800 like also, the coffee industry has a whole on like 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:19.560 on a global scale, incredibly exploitative industry that like we 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.560 are both we play into as people like in the 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.919 US who make incredibly expensive specialty coffee, but also like 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:29.480 as workers who are exploited ourselves. Like, this is something 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.920 that I think we have to think about often as 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.120 like how I don't know, how can our union affect 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.040 this industry as a whole, How can we affect you know, 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.320 Nestle as this conglomerate as a whole, But also how 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:42.960 can I afford my rent next month? 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:43.760 Yeah? 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:46.800 And so you know, having those kinds of discussions with workers, 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.400 like putting our day to day labor into this kind 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:54.240 of larger context both of the company and of the industry. 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.000 I mean, I think this campaign, you know, we didn't 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.560 we didn't start it out independent. We had a little 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:05.200 bit of shopping around almost of different unions. I think 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:08.520 we were also largely spouted here in Boston specifically, like 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.840 it is kind of a hotbed for coffee organizing. A 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.800 lot of shops around here organized. There've been some incredibly 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.000 like militant shops out here, Like I think Gonda and 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.160 I first got introduced to the Bluebell campaign from the 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.040 Starbucks eight seven four picket line and they were out 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:25.840 there for like two months, and I think that that, 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:28.920 you know, those kinds of things have really influenced campaign 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.000 and really influenced our organizing as we go into this 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:37.719 like really kind of corporate bougee coffee shops that is 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.640 hard to hard to reconcile with, like, hey, I am 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:47.880 also an exploited laborer. I you know, I am forced 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.120 to make coffee all day for customers who are frankly 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:54.880 quite rude, and having to have those conversations with your 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.919 coworkers of like, hey, we deserve better. It might be 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.920 marginally better than some other place, we still deserve better 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:04.080 and we can fight for so much more. So I 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:05.400 feel like I went on for a little bit there, 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:06.240 but I hope that is. 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.040 One thing to kind of add on to that is 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:15.200 when organizing in the stores, part of the fact that 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.880 we're owned by NESTLEI makes it actually much easier because 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.480 people aren't like easily fooled. We understand that Neslie is 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.360 putting a lot of money into this company with the 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.960 hope of future returns you know, in the shortter, medium term. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.920 And also people implicitly understand that the current model that 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.440 the cafes operate on is kind of reckless, Like because 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:45.560 we're owned basically as a venture capital scheme, this means that, 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.360 you know, we're constantly trying to cut costs that shouldn't 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:53.520 be cut. Like even today, Madeline and I ran out 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:54.640 of decaf. 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.320 Coffy beans because they. 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:00.600 Hadn't placed in order for them, Oh my god. Yeah. 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.480 And you know, we've run out of you know, milks 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:08.120 fairly frequently. We've run out of things like cups and 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.840 lids and very basic things that you need to run 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.360 a coffee shop as far as I can tell, only 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:19.600 because they need to keep operating costs comically low so 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.480 that way they can appease their nesty overlords. 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:25.200 Which is pretty funny because the math doesn't make any 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.080 sense on that right, because it's like, okay, you need 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.680 to find a way to make like four hundred million dollars. 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.120 Your solution to this is We're going to delay ordering 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:37.439 more coffee beads? Like, is there anyone who like, No, 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:39.800 you don't like. This isn't even an accountant situation. This 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.360 is a like, is there anyone here who understands what 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.080 an order of magnitude is? What are we doing here? 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:48.559 Wait till you hear about the saffron latte. 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:50.440 Oh god, what a disaster. 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:52.920 Oh yeah, so they don't have enough money to pay 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:57.320 us a living wage. But from January until April of 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:02.400 this year, we were serving a saffron alatte with and 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.120 I kid you, not real saffron, both in a syrup 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:07.520 and also and a powdered Yeah, no, no kidding. It 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.680 tasted like Plato. I kind of like that, but not 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:12.520 everybody does. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:16.160 Apparently, you know the first time, This is the first 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.120 time I've ever said this in my entire life. But 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.120 I sincerely hope that they were buying the fucking cheap 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:27.480 fake stuff they were real saffron. Oh god, Well, to 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:29.160 be fair, to be fair, a lot of something people 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:33.400 think is real saffron probably is fake. So maybe maybe 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.079 the scammers were getting something out of this. But dear God, 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:37.960 that doesn't make them look good. 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.880 But yeah, no, real, somebody who's good with the economy 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.000 helped me out here. You know, three thousand dollars a 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:48.559 week for Saffron and eighteen dollars an hour for Bereiza's. 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:56.840 God, that's gonna like haunt me in my dreams. So 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.480 what order are gonna add? How much should that lost? 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:07.679 Eight Jesus Christ yep, oh no, but not enough money 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:12.920 to pay us a living wage. No, that's I don't 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.000 know that is that is that is jeny wily disgusting. 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.800 Like how you know, when you think about it, we 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.839 can like buy a little over two of them every 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:27.000 hour we work, so like that's all we need. 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.160 Yeah, yeah, that's also got to be like a kind 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.439 of radicalizing moment of oh my god, yeah, and our 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:38.840 time is worth so little to these people. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.200 This is actually one of the biggest conversations I would 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.000 have with my cochers that I had to stop having 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:46.720 so it'd make them incredibly upset. Was I would break 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:48.079 down the mouth of them. I'd be like, you can 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.160 make a latte in about a minute, two minutes, Like, 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:53.960 and those lattes are seven dollars you make seventeen an 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.680 hour make three lattes and that's more than your hourly wage, 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.360 and you're making what one hundred of those an hour 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.480 in a rush. Like people would get really upset when 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.199 you're confronted with like the oh wow, the money coming 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.000 in and then the money that I'm receiving. It'll drive 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:09.720 you crazy. 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:12.679 Yeah, And I think, I don't know. That's one of 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.840 these things where I think in a lot of industries 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:21.600 it's kind of that kind of value thing is abstracted 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:23.439 because like I don't know, like you're like I just 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.439 talked about it like an accountant earlier, right, Like you're 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.600 an accountant. You have no idea how much of well, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:33.080 I guess maybe an accountant would know exactly about a value, Okay, 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:36.440 I don't know. You work in like you work in 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.320 a factory that produces an auto part, right, like one 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.600 thing that goes into an assembly of an auto parts, 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:43.480 Like you have no like there's no good way for 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.480 you to like actually understand the sort of value things. 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:48.000 You can get kind of close, but I think it's 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.760 less visceral than just yeah, this is an item of 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.000 food that I'm watching all of these people like consume 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.520 that I'm making, and it's like, yeah, sure, obviously there's 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.160 like you know, like back down the value chained is 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:03.600 also probably like Nessley doing like slave labor, like child 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:07.559 slave labor to get chocolate or something. Right, But I 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.640 don't know, there's this there's something really kind of just 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:15.560 viscerally horrifying about like I've produced eight hundred dollars of 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:19.720 coffee and they're paying me eighteen dollars. Yeah, so speaking 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.360 of eight hundred dollars of coffee this show. Actually, I 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.480 don't think we've ever gotten the coffee ad, which is 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.599 sort of remarkable. You'd think at some point. 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.160 I don't know, I don't dream really funny, you know, 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.400 if if on the ad that we're about to go 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:35.480 to it's you know, like the Black Rifle Coffee Company 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:35.960 or some shit. 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.440 Oh god, wait no, I think I think one of 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.839 the I think one of the insane. It might have 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.120 been the other one. So there's like Black Rifle Coffee, 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.080 which is the right wing coffee thing. But then they 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.680 they condemned Kyle Rittenhouse murdering all those people, and so 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.000 then there became a second, even more anti wokee coffee 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.679 shop that was even shittier. I think those people might 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:00.640 legitimately have tried to sell it add to our show. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.319 At one point we were like, no, what the fuck's 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.800 there's We had so many insane ads we had the 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:14.760 famously the Washington Highway Patrol put one on here. So 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.160 all right, let's let's hope you have a reasonable ad 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:33.040 instead of that, and we are back. Luckily this is 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.880 podcasting are not regulated like radio, so I could just 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.560 fucking say, shit, it's great. We love we love, we 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:42.120 love to be we love to be in podcasting. So yeah, 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:46.160 this this brings us in no particular bye by by 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.960 no particularly rhymer reason. This brings us to a neoxt 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.880 thing I wanted to sort of talk about, which is 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:56.360 about the decision to go independent and about independent unions 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.200 versus sort of the traditional business unions that have been 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:01.280 trying to run a lot of these campaigns. So yeah, 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.679 I guess wherever you want to start in that whole 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.200 sort of thickets of issues. 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.920 Yeah, the decision to go independent was maybe eight months 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:17.800 into our campaign. We did pivot to go independent. We were, 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.200 you know, kind of we had not affiliated with anyone. 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:24.240 We some weird stuff it had happened with some previous 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:26.320 business unions and so we were kind of a nice 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.080 shopping around phase, and I like good friend of the 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:33.160 union and someone who has helped us incredibly throughout the campaign, 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.560 said hey, can I pitch you guys on going independent? 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.520 Like and at that time, I mean I can't speak 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:41.840 for the other folks, Like I did not know anything 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.560 about independent unions. This campaign has also been an incredible 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.640 like learning process for me. And so you know, we 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.640 talked about a little bit of like, hey, unions, everything 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.160 that a union does, workers can do and really like 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.000 trying to like instill this like we can do it ourselves. 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.920 I think that like for me, like the dream of 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.440 independent unionism is like the having autonomy and control of 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.480 our lives both in the workplace and in our unions 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.240 at like ads workers and so you know this idea 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.000 of like oh yeah, this the union just takes care 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.080 of it. Oh, you pay dues and this stafford does 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:20.960 all these things for you. But when you know, when 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:22.960 we filed our petition, you know I filled that out, 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:24.440 it's not that hard. 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:25.000 You know. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:27.520 There are so many things where it's like oh, yeah, 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:29.040 the union will take care of it, or oh this 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.120 is what dues pay for, Like oh, we can have 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.640 a lawyer look at it. At no part of this 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.680 process was there really anything that workers could not have done. 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.640 Did we seek legal advice? Absolutely? Did we have people 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:41.960 help us out who maybe knew more than I did. Yes, 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.560 But that isn't to say that we were not learning 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:46.520 the entire time. So to me, that's like the big 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:50.640 ethos of independent unionism of like learning it, doing it, 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.320 teaching others. I think it has been an incredible opportunity. 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.160 I think also like we really are committed to like 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.960 rank and file democracy and so having workers have they 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:05.160 say in all major decisions, especially like now that we 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.440 have had our election, we're moving into bargaining hopefully soon, 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.440 like being able to have workers submit proposals, have workers 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.120 look and do open bargaining, have them look at every 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:17.960 at the contract at every step of the way, and 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:22.040 things like this, having people participate in their unions. I mean, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:23.360 I think that we are in a time of like 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:25.960 the revitalization of the labor movement, and I don't want 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:27.880 workers to get left behind in that. Like I think 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.160 that we, you know, like we are the labor and 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:35.520 so being able to control our unions and lead them 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.000 in the ways that we want to as democratically as 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.680 we can. To me, it's been what it's all about. 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.440 Did that mean that it was an easy campaign. No, 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:45.720 it was a lot of work. It was a lot 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:47.760 of work that maybe a paid staff or would have done, 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.320 but we did it ourselves and it took longer, and 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:52.920 it took a lot of education as well of explaining 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.280 to my coworkers of like, hey, we want to form 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.600 a union and it's not just this thing that kind 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.600 of happens to you, Like, actually, you have to make 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.840 it happen now if you want to do it. So 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:03.920 I think that for us the choice to go independent 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:08.880 independent has like only reaped benefits so far, it's been 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.600 this wonderful thing. I think that we are all much 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.160 better for it and much closer like as co workers. 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.119 I think that people are more excited about their union. 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.080 But it certainly, you know, it took a lot of work, 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:21.480 It took a lot of time, It took a lot 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.960 of trust from our coworkers as well. 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:30.560 Yeah, I mean one of the most formative experiences that 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:32.720 has stuck with me, and I think I might have 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.120 mentioned this in the interview before the interview was when 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.520 we were shopping around with business unions Rocky and I 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.400 had sat down with somebody from a fairly large one, 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:46.000 and we're trying to ask all of these questions about, 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:48.679 you know, would we be able to have rank and 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.200 file control of our own campaign, would we be able 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:59.639 to you know, legitimately examine unconventional tactics for launching or 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:04.240 sustain our campaign, you know, what is the actual process 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.840 for requesting finances from the larger affiliate if we needed it, 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.480 And more or less, what we were told by the 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.480 staffer was that none of this would be in the 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:16.840 hands of rank and file, and it would either be 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:20.560 determined by what this particular staffer thought was best or 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.959 you know, they would have to get approval from you know, 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:28.719 whoever was above them, which, despite the fact that this 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.480 person was within the reform caucus of their union, did 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:33.520 not strike them as being anti democratic at all. 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:34.960 Yeah. 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:41.240 Yeah, And at that point, I mean, you know, we'd 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.800 been talking to our co workers for months at that point, 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.920 you know, hanging out with them, becoming building community, and 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.480 it didn't seem like there was really anything that you know, 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:56.840 a larger business union would have had to offer to 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:01.200 begin with. In fact, in my own experience, the idea 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:05.560 of affiliation has more or less come across as an 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.320 implicit threat of how else you're going to take on 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.480 Nesley without all of the money and resources that we 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:12.160 have but won't let you use anyways. 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.280 Yeah, which is like not a thing. I don't know, 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:19.439 if you've gotten to the point where your union is 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.320 threatening you, and this is something that like happens more 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.800 than you'd think, Like, you know, but listeners of this 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:28.959 show may or may not have listened to some previous 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.199 episodes talking to some of the reformed nurses slates that 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.760 we've had on the show where that's happened. But if 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.200 your union is threatening to you, something has gone very 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:42.880 badly wrong, and you're probably you're in a position where 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:44.919 you're probably going to be having to fight yourself out 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.119 of a deep hole. And one way you can avoid 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:49.359 getting in there in the first place is by not 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.800 digging the hole and building something yourself. Yeah, exactly. 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.400 And I mean, you know, one of the things that 0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.800 we heard a lot about at Labor Notes two weeks 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.560 ago at this point was people within larger unions talking 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.359 about how to fight off staffers or bureaucrats. And I'm 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.960 personally very glad that we are not in that fight 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.040 ourselves because we have Nestlie to take care of. 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:12.280 Now. 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:14.920 Yeah. 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:19.400 Yeah, the the sort of two way fight between you 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.600 your boss and then also your union staffers is not 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:26.080 a thing that usually goes well for you. It's a 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.000 bad situation to be it. I would recommend of waiting it. 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:30.240 Yeah. 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.160 Yeah, So I guess the next thing that I'm sort 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.639 of interested in is, you know, so you talked a 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.840 bit about how sort of being an independent union like 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.679 made the union closer. How else did that influence how 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.439 the campaign went? And how is like how how has 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.600 it been going in the past, Like, I know, I 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:51.680 know you won your election remembering there, right, Yeah, it 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.800 was an election with Sorry it has been. This has 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.479 been the most chaotic two weeks I've had in several years. 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.680 So, I mean, it's just like Lennin said, there are 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.160 years where you fuck around and weeks where you find out. 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:07.920 All Right, I'm gonna get so much shit for that 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:13.760 comment now. Anyways, cool Zobia is not endorsed. Letting yes, 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:15.640 two good lines. 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.280 I promise I only said it for the joke. Yeah. 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:25.399 Our campaign started April third. There are six stores in 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:30.760 the Greater Boston area with roughly sixty seven sixty five 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:36.800 workers across all of them. On April third, fifty workers 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:41.359 from five of those stores handed cards like union authorization 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:46.320 cards to management, announcing our campaign, our union, and asking 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:51.639 for voluntary recognition by noon on April eighth. Management accepted 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:55.320 the cards, but then did not recognize the union voluntarily 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.199 by newon April eight, and instead they put up a 0:21:58.240 --> 0:21:59.600