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Speaker 1: A media.

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Speaker 2: It's Behind the Bastards once again, the podcast where every

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Speaker 2: week we tell you the worst things about the worst

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Speaker 2: people in all of history. And this week we are

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Speaker 2: doing parts three and four of our series on the

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Speaker 2: founder of Seal Team six, Richard mar Singo, And in

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Speaker 2: these two episodes we will be getting you know, past

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Speaker 2: just Richard and talking about kind of how the things

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Speaker 2: he's set in motion led to the continuing derangement of

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Speaker 2: the Navy Seals well beyond just Team six, and back

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Speaker 2: to talk with me about how, thanks God, as bad

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Speaker 2: as they are now, Andrew.

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Speaker 3: T Andrew, that's it going.

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Speaker 4: I'm good.

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Speaker 2: Find it and Andrew Findian have no war crimes this morning,

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Speaker 2: So that's good.

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Speaker 3: You have committed to me, right.

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Speaker 5: I can't promise the world possibly even six.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: It's entirely possible.

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Speaker 2: There's a non zero chance we're back at war with

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Speaker 2: if I'm remembering correctly, but that changes every day.

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Speaker 4: The point is I don't know.

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Speaker 2: The point is you don't know. And the point is

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Speaker 2: also that you have a podcast.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that is the point.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've been doing a Star Trek podcast with Tony

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Speaker 2: Newsom Jesse Gender.

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Speaker 5: It's called Starter Trek. They are I won't say making

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Speaker 5: me watch Star Trek because I do enjoy it, but

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Speaker 5: I do not know jack shit about Star Trek. So

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Speaker 5: I'm I'm muddling my way through and it's really fun.

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Speaker 5: We're on podcast places and YouTube and excellent. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 5: what I'm doing these days, one of the two, I.

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Speaker 3: Guess check that out.

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Speaker 2: And I've got a little plug I want to put

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Speaker 2: in for some friends of the pod. A lot of

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Speaker 2: you listened to the Knowledge Fight podcast, which is currently

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Speaker 2: on hold or you know, no longer being produced. But

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Speaker 2: the hosts of that are two great guys, Dan and Jordan,

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Speaker 2: who did wonderful work documenting Alex Jones and and actually

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Speaker 2: helping with like the legal fight against him and Info Wars,

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Speaker 2: and they both have new projects. So I just wanted

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Speaker 2: to let you know because a lot of our listeners

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Speaker 2: listen to their stuff. Dan has a new podcast called

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Speaker 2: Show Me State of Mind, and Jordan has started a

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Speaker 2: YouTube series of short video essays called AT or that's

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Speaker 2: at Everyone Is Wrong About. So YouTube at Everyone Is

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Speaker 2: Wrong About is Jordan's new thing. Yeah, uh, that's it.

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Speaker 2: And now it's time for some seals, not the not

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Speaker 2: the ones who like blubber and like the people. Well,

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Speaker 2: I guess our Navy stills have some blubber, but they're

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Speaker 2: pretty skinny usually, right, Yeah, I mean I doubt they

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Speaker 2: taste very good. Maybe I wouldn't try it.

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Speaker 4: Might yeah they might.

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Speaker 2: Man, I'll eat any kind of seal look at once.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not gonna club it, but if it's

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Speaker 2: fed to me, I'll try a Navy seal. I'll try

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Speaker 2: a harp seal. You know, that's just where I that's

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Speaker 2: just where I roll.

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Richard Maarsenko commanded Seal Team six from its inception in

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Speaker 2: August of nineteen eighty to July of nineteen eighty three.

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Speaker 3: So again, not a.

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Speaker 2: Long run then as the founder and head of Seal

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Speaker 2: Team six, Oh my god, we're gonna get We're going

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Speaker 2: like more than one episode per year.

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Speaker 3: This is like yeah, because we're getting way beyond. There's

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Speaker 3: way more.

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Speaker 2: So you were for the Seals doing anything bad. You

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Speaker 2: have to get out of Mrsinko's era because they're not

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Speaker 2: doing a lot. When he's running Team six, you know, doing.

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Speaker 4: Bad Vietnam mostly to their livers.

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Speaker 3: It seems like yeah right right.

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Speaker 2: During that early eighties period there's not as much shit

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Speaker 2: for them to go do as there's going to be,

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Speaker 2: or as there was a nom So, given Richard's bloodthirsty

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Speaker 2: nature his frequently stated love of killing, it's tragic that

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Speaker 2: he missed Seal Team six getting its baptism and a

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Speaker 2: fire on a little island called Grenada. Now most of

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Speaker 2: you millennials, you're too young to have any memory of this,

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Speaker 2: but Grenada was one of a handful of brief, little

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Speaker 2: mini wars that the US ran during the Reagan and

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Speaker 2: Bush one years to make us feel better about the

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Speaker 2: fact that we'd lost Vietnam. We needed to get our

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Speaker 2: mojo back, and the only way he would do that

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Speaker 2: was to invade some countries that had no chance of

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Speaker 2: fighting back whatsoever. You can look at the Falklands if

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Speaker 2: you want to say, sorry, I don't.

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Speaker 3: Need to go right now. We just need.

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Speaker 4: Patting practice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Grenada and fucking Panama and then Desert Storm were

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Speaker 2: like taking Sealis for like your military industrial complex after

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Speaker 2: it gets like that middle aged Vietnam, you know, LIMP syndrome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, this is the first this is the

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Speaker 2: first time this has happened.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So Reagan took over after Carter during a time when

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Speaker 2: left wing movements were spreading across Latin America and the Caribbean.

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Speaker 2: There was a coup in Grenada and leftists took over

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Speaker 2: the government, and he used the pretext of some US

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Speaker 2: medical students who might be the next Iranian embassy hostages

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Speaker 2: to deploy overwhelming in sudden US force to the area.

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Speaker 2: Their first task ended in disaster. On the night of

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Speaker 2: October twenty third, prior to the invasion, a mixed team

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Speaker 2: of Seals and some Air Force Combat Control Team members

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Speaker 2: parachuted into the sea to go ashore and plant beacons

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Speaker 2: on an airfield. This is exactly the kind of thing

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Speaker 2: seals are supposed to be doing, right. The jump got botched, though,

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Speaker 2: and one of the seal teams had way too much

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Speaker 2: gear up to four ndred pounds each, and their life

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Speaker 2: vests couldn't support them. Four Team six seals died in

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Speaker 2: drowning without ever seeing combat. The rest of the mission

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Speaker 2: flopped because of boat broke. So not a great first

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Speaker 2: run for Team six. You know, oh man, drowning because

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Speaker 2: of too much gear is it sucks?

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Speaker 3: That sucks so bad. That's but also a shitty way

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Speaker 3: to die.

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Speaker 4: It feels. I guess that's that's how it was gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: Jesus, well someone again, it's the someone probably should have

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Speaker 2: checked the math on that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: There was massive debate as to why Team six had

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Speaker 2: needed to parachute into the water with all of that

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Speaker 2: gear in the first place, because there were other ways

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Speaker 2: to have accomplished the mission, and the answer seems to

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Speaker 2: have been because, like, well, it was cool as fuck

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Speaker 2: to do it that way, and that's what we trained for,

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Speaker 2: because that's the kind of stuff we're into. And his book,

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Speaker 2: Or notes that Seal Team four actually had wanted to

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Speaker 2: do the mission instead of Team six, and they were

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Speaker 2: going to use like boats, and they might have they

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Speaker 2: might have done that quote had Sealed Team six not

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Speaker 2: been so eager to show off at skins in a

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Speaker 2: real war. That's from Brave Men, Dark Waters and Braveman

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Speaker 2: Dark Waters is a pretty positive book towards the founding

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Speaker 2: of the Seals and their early establishment. So the fact

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Speaker 2: that Orr is saying that they did this because they

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Speaker 2: kind of wanted to see if they could and a

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Speaker 2: bunch of guys died means something, right. It's I guess

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Speaker 2: the tiny thing that is, like, is it heartening to

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Speaker 2: know that that, like, right wing dorks have just always

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Speaker 2: been around or you know, the entire most of everyone's lifetime,

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Speaker 2: and they're always really bad at estimating risk, like estimating

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Speaker 2: how likely things are to work for them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, they're also try likely to take certain risks, which

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Speaker 2: is why a lot of people don't don't fight back.

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Speaker 2: But that's a separate question. So a day and a

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Speaker 2: half after the drowning, during the actual invasion of Grenada,

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Speaker 2: Seal Team six was again tasked with a special mission.

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Speaker 2: This time, they were asked to seize the government house

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Speaker 2: and protect the Governor General, who was a representative of

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Speaker 2: the British govern because Grenado was a commonwealth and so

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Speaker 2: the job was like they would infiltrate and like get

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Speaker 2: this guy and evacuate him, and he would like sign

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Speaker 2: a thing declaring the US invasion legal, right, that was

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Speaker 2: kind of why they wanted Team six there. But the

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Speaker 2: mission gets fucked from the jump and they wind up

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Speaker 2: under heavy fire, getting really badly injured, surrounded in this

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Speaker 2: building by APCs, and they don't really get to do much,

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Speaker 2: but they do get the Governor General and he does

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Speaker 2: sign that thing. So like, technically they accomplish their political goal,

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Speaker 2: but like it slows the invasion. A bunch of like

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Speaker 2: regular Marines have to rescue the Seals because they've they've

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Speaker 2: gotten themselves in a bad situation. Yeah, the adults have

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Speaker 2: to come rescue these unite as the adults being the Marines, right, which, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they took a break from eating crayons to go say yeah.

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Speaker 2: Two other units from Team six were sent to accomplish

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Speaker 2: other tasks. One had to set beacons on an airfield

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Speaker 2: and the other had to disable a radio transmitter. After

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Speaker 2: the short conflict was over, there were serious questions by

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Speaker 2: war planners. Had everything Team sixted been asked to do

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Speaker 2: been necessary? Did we need the use these guys for this?

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Speaker 2: The failures witnessed in Grenada helped spur the creation of

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Speaker 2: a new Joint Special Operations Command. They're basically reforming Jaysock,

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Speaker 2: and now it will include all special forces and not

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Speaker 2: just a few specialized units. Now, the Seals fought this.

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Speaker 2: One way they'd establish their value post Vietnam was to

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Speaker 2: make themselves an integral part of Carrier Group operations for

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Speaker 2: the Navy, But ultimately the Seals were integrated, and it

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Speaker 2: was probably for the best for the Seals because being

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Speaker 2: integrated to Jaysock brings them a lot more money. And

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Speaker 2: by nineteen ninety it's ensured that the Seals have expanded

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Speaker 2: to more than two thousand men, which is double the

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Speaker 2: size they'd been in Vietnam. Because as we're kind of

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Speaker 2: nearing the collapse of the Soviet Union the post Cold

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Speaker 2: War era, as that's all in sight, there's this understanding

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Speaker 2: that maybe we don't need to worry about the big wars,

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Speaker 2: but we need elite teams of guys who can do

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Speaker 2: stuff like overthrow a government that we don't like so much.

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Speaker 2: You're like, take out of arras hand hostage situation, can

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Speaker 2: I said abroad? Question I guess, which is like something

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Speaker 2: i've You seem like you definitely would underno this more

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Speaker 2: than me.

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Speaker 5: Which is that like the jsack of it? Why besides

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Speaker 5: branding or is it just branding? Why the fuck do

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Speaker 5: we have so many different types of elite guys?

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Speaker 2: It's because they do different things. So the Navy Seals

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Speaker 2: are traditionally supposed to be number one, like water naval operations.

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Speaker 2: They work with carrier groups like we talked about they're

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Speaker 2: also supposed to be doing like hostage rescue, hostage operations, assassinations, kidnapping,

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Speaker 2: whereas you know, like the Green Berets, for example, are

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Speaker 2: like the guys at the start of Afghanistan. You drop

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Speaker 2: a handful of them into like a village, and their

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Speaker 2: job is to build up a militia of locals and

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Speaker 2: like train them and teach them how to fight as

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Speaker 2: a unit and stuff in order to help them accomplish

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Speaker 2: the US's goals. And that's a very different skill set

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Speaker 2: than the Seals. The Green Brays are obviously need to

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Speaker 2: be competent fighters, but they're supposed to be really good

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Speaker 2: at like working with locals and not just killing them,

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Speaker 2: because that's kind of a point. That's why you want

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Speaker 2: a Green Beret, right right. Delta Force is also, I mean,

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Speaker 2: and these kind of do get muddled, especially today, Like

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Speaker 2: what is Delta Force used for as opposed to the

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Speaker 2: Team six is supposed to like opposed to right, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of them, and they all have specializations ostensibly, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I guess that.

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Speaker 5: To me, it's just that in the era of like helicopters, drones,

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Speaker 5: it just seems more like g I Joe.

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Speaker 4: Than anything else.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's an argument to be made for that.

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Speaker 2: Again, not that a lot of these guys will make,

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Speaker 2: but there is a charge made that like sometimes, especially

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Speaker 2: like today, a lot of these units have like overlapping

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Speaker 2: capabilities and like purposes that it's kind of yeah anyway, right, right, Okay,

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Speaker 2: So when we left off with Richard Marsenko, because this

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Speaker 2: is the stuff that's happening. I told you in the

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Speaker 2: last episode, he gets a new job creating the Red Cell,

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Speaker 2: who's supposed to break in a navy basis. So well

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Speaker 2: he is starting that job. That's when like Grenada is

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Speaker 2: going on, right, because he's out of the of Team

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Speaker 2: six by that point. So let's get back to Richard

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Speaker 2: for a little bit. When we left off, Marcinko had

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Speaker 2: charmed his way into getting a classified unit, Red Cell,

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Speaker 2: which you got to train up and could use to

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Speaker 2: break into any Navy facility he chose. He was also

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Speaker 2: supposed to use them to kidnap sensitive employees have said

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Speaker 2: facilities to test their security protocols. This latter remit gave

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Speaker 2: Maarsenko a chance to get back at the people he

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Speaker 2: hated and blamed for all of his woes. Lazy officers

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Speaker 2: and civilians with cushy desk jobs. Right, he gets to

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Speaker 2: like fuck with these guys for a living now, So

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Speaker 2: he and his men often forced kidnap victims to carry

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Speaker 2: out intense workouts and would like mock them for their performance.

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Speaker 2: And otherwise they're not like supposed to beat them up usually,

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Speaker 2: but they are crossing that line or getting right up

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Speaker 2: to it a lot because they're dicks.

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Speaker 5: I will just say, if like the Daily Wire or

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Speaker 5: someone like that had any actual chops, you could make

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Speaker 5: like kind of like a right wing version of dirty.

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Speaker 4: Work out of this story.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that would be you know, probably funny enough, honestly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a great script in this tale. I'm surprised

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Speaker 2: it hasn't been made into a movie. So complaints were

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Speaker 2: pretty minimal at first, right, because they're not really beating people,

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Speaker 2: and so it's easy to dismiss people saying, hey, but

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Speaker 2: they're really dicks. To us, it's like kind of sour

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Speaker 2: grapes because you're not good at your security and the

262
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Speaker 2: Seaus showed you up. But then Marsenko's Red Cell started

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Speaker 2: crossing paths with a man named Ronald Sheridan. Now ron

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Speaker 2: was not a soldier, but the civilian ahead of security

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Speaker 2: for a naval weapons facility. He had criticized the flaws

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Speaker 2: in the Red Team analysis of his facility when they'd

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Speaker 2: shown up on site, and he had denied Marsenko the

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Speaker 2: use of his facilities to plan their operations. He's like, basically, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if you want to try to bust in, you can't

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Speaker 2: like use facilities on the base for your planning, right.

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Speaker 2: If you're trying to cosplay as an enemy, you can't

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Speaker 2: like prep inside the base, you know, because they.

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Speaker 4: Won't get to get your own Motel six, asshole.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, get your That's literally what he say, right, And

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Speaker 2: Marsigo does not love this, So I'm going to quote

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Speaker 2: again from Code over Country. The team instead worked from

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Speaker 2: a local dive called Garfs. There, marsinco and the team

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Speaker 2: plotted their next operation while drinking day and night. This

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Speaker 2: included how to terrorize Sheridan. The strict rules of engagement

280
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Speaker 2: called for all operations to occur at the naval facility

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Speaker 2: being probed, and for the operators to only use force

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Speaker 2: to simulate getting control of a target. Sheridan lived in

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Speaker 2: Eagle Rock, a Los Angeles suburb north of Seal beach.

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Speaker 2: By the time the two operators, Frank Phillips and Arturo

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Speaker 2: Farius showed up at Sheridan's home, they had already gone

286
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Speaker 2: too far. So from the jump, they shouldn't be at

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Speaker 2: this guy's house, and they are. On March twentieth, nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty six, the Red Cell moves into kidnap ron Sheridan.

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Speaker 2: But here's the thing. Sheridan knows he's got a really

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Speaker 2: sensitive job and he takes it seriously, and so does

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Speaker 2: his wife. She takes it really seriously. So when Frank

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Speaker 2: Phillips tries to kidnap Ron Sheridan, his wife is there.

293
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Speaker 2: His wife, Margaret is there with a gun. Every morning

294
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Speaker 2: she walks him out to his car with a loaded

295
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Speaker 2: forty five and she nearly shoots Phillips two times, and

296
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Speaker 2: he has to like explain and show them his badge,

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Speaker 2: and Ron agrees to go with him for the good

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Speaker 2: of the exercise. Although I think you could agree they

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Speaker 2: beat the exercise. And this lady got the drop on

300
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Speaker 2: his elite navy seal and nearly killed him in his

301
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Speaker 2: LARPing job testing security on naval basis. He almost gets

302
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Speaker 2: a sealed killed by a housewife.

303
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Speaker 4: Like that, is It's so funny, funny, really good good.

304
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like like I would say, I guess his security

305
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:20,440
Speaker 2: was pretty good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like sounds like Sheridan's got it on lock.

307
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Speaker 2: But instead they kidnap this guy and they take him

308
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Speaker 2: to a shitty motel will they like sit and watch

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Speaker 2: TV with him for most of the day and he's

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Speaker 2: like putting up with it for a while, but after

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Speaker 2: a few hours he's like, I gotta go home. Guys like,

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Speaker 2: why are we still doing this? And the Seals are

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Speaker 2: like no, and he's like, seriously, let me go, And

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Speaker 2: so they call Marsenko and Marsenko is still at the

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Speaker 2: bar and is very drunk and continuing to drink during

316
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Speaker 2: the operation, and he's like that fucker wants to leave

317
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Speaker 2: terriminy asshole and have the camera team film it. So

318
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Speaker 2: he orders his guys to beat him up and film it.

319
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Speaker 2: So two Red Cell operators bust into the hotel room

320
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Speaker 2: and start beating the shit out of Sheridan. They strip

321
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Speaker 2: him to his underwear and tie him to a chair

322
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Speaker 2: while calling him a pussy. They beat him, they waterboard

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00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,040
Speaker 2: him in a toilet. Now again, all of these Red

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Speaker 2: Cell guys are Seals, former seals. They're the best of

325
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Speaker 2: the best, a lot of team six guys, and yet

326
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,000
Speaker 2: while beating an unarmed, tied up man, they still took casualties.

327
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Speaker 2: When operator fell on Sheridan while torturing him and broke

328
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Speaker 2: a rib, they lose a man beating up a tied

329
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Speaker 2: up dude. The best of the best, the most Only

330
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Speaker 2: a seal could take out a seal, clearly. Yeah, in

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Speaker 2: both these instances we've talked about today, Well, all the

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Speaker 2: civilian security employee's body can take out a seal or.

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Speaker 4: Took himself down. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Rob's wife later said after her husband was returned, I

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Speaker 2: wish I had shot that guy, Did I get it?

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Speaker 3: Margaret? That's a fair way to feel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say, just broadly, we're kind of getting

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Speaker 2: close to this era of like we're starting to see

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00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 2: law enforcement fight other law enforcement at the margins, you know,

340
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Speaker 2: ice arresting, like local.

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Speaker 3: Title bits, little bits. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I am a little you know, wonder what's going to

343
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 5: happen one day, because one of these days someone's going

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Speaker 5: to do something one way or the other.

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Speaker 2: I guess it probably won't be the fun version of it,

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Speaker 2: but we could never is I guess yeah, yeah, So

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Speaker 2: the fact that his guys had beat up the student

348
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 2: filmed it didn't look good for Marsenko, so we had

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Speaker 2: the tape edited to remove the worst of the beating.

350
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Speaker 2: But Sheridan reported the abuse and the Navy got access

351
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Speaker 2: to the full video. Marcinko says did nothing abnormal happened,

352
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,760
Speaker 2: but he was fired from Red Salem month later and

353
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Speaker 2: given an admiral's mast. This time now his clout held

354
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,000
Speaker 2: up yet again. It is insured him a slap on

355
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,800
Speaker 2: the wrist punishment. But a month later, the Navy opened

356
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 2: an investigation into Marsenko's time as Team six commander. The

357
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 2: motivating incident for this was a report Marsenco had drunken

358
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,440
Speaker 2: pulled a gun during a military exchange trip to New Zealand.

359
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 2: Like they and Marsanko's like this was all political, but

360
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,639
Speaker 2: also and maybe it was, But also, why did you

361
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 2: drunkenly pull a gun during a military exchange ship? And

362
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,920
Speaker 2: that's a good reason to fire a guy, I'd.

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Speaker 4: Say, why did you bring a gun to New Zealand.

364
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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure maybe he gets to take like

365
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 2: these in the military.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure that kind of.

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Speaker 2: Badass you should. I'm just say this. I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 5: He should he If you're a Seal, if you're the

369
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Speaker 5: King of the Seals, you should be able to fight

370
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Speaker 5: New Zealand bear handed.

371
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Speaker 2: You should be able to fight New Zealand bare handed.

372
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Speaker 2: I mean, come on, like, come.

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Speaker 4: On, get the get the fuck out here, get real.

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00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:39,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

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00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,760
Speaker 2: So the Seals clammed up and defended Marsenko, and for

376
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 2: a while it seemed like he'd get away with this too.

377
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 2: But after the word got out that Richard was about

378
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,720
Speaker 2: to be promoted to captain, a bunch of officers inside

379
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,600
Speaker 2: Navy Special Forces flipped out. And these are not like

380
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,000
Speaker 2: big Navy guys, these are Special Forces guys, and they

381
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 2: realized what a fucking poison Marsenko is to everything they

382
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,560
Speaker 2: are trying to do. One of these dudes actually writes

383
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,399
Speaker 2: a seven page letter to Ronald Reagan being like, please

384
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,439
Speaker 2: do not promote this man, but ultimately decides instead to

385
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,119
Speaker 2: call Naval Investigative Services and report some of what he

386
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,640
Speaker 2: knew about the fraud Marsinko had enabled and carried out

387
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 2: in Team six. This caused the launch of a probe

388
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,400
Speaker 2: in the spring of nineteen eighty six, which turned into

389
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 2: a full investigation nicknamed Iron Eagle. Marsenko would later blame

390
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 2: all of this on eggheads and Big Navy, who he'd

391
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 2: offended and lightly tortured while it read so. But the

392
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 2: lead investigator was Clifford Simon, a former Army ranger who

393
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,879
Speaker 2: joined a Bronze Star in combat. He was a huge

394
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 2: supporter of the mission of the seals. He just wasn't

395
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,960
Speaker 2: willing to let Marsinko get away with corruption. From the

396
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,159
Speaker 2: book Brave Men, Dark Waters quote at one point, they

397
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,199
Speaker 2: hired a truck, backed it up to the door of

398
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 2: Team six headquarters, and carted away the team records, about

399
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,679
Speaker 2: fifty boxes of them. It was an extraordinary scene, a

400
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,119
Speaker 2: government agency rating, in effect, one of the Navy's most

401
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 2: secret and most vital military units. This is like a

402
00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:00,960
Speaker 2: big deal investigation. Yeah, like that's the analysts.

403
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,920
Speaker 5: Honestly crazy they kept any records though, Giffin, it is

404
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,800
Speaker 5: a small unt I know about them.

405
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:07,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

406
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 2: So, at first, the actual evidence against Marsenco seemed thin.

407
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 2: He'd done a pretty good job covering his tracks, but

408
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 2: eventually investigating agents found out that one of his top seals,

409
00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 2: a man who had actually fought in Grenada, John Mason,

410
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,440
Speaker 2: had also taken trophies back from Grenada with him AK

411
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 2: forty seven's and that was illegal. Trophy taking is illegal. Now,

412
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 2: importing automatic weapons is definitely not.

413
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 3: You're not supposed to be doing that off.

414
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,680
Speaker 4: The trophies AKS is not the.

415
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look would it be tempting were I and

416
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,840
Speaker 2: John Mason's of course, you can't expect superhuman self control.

417
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 2: That's why you build guide rails into the systems like this.

418
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 2: So they decided to look into Mason, and sure enough,

419
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 2: he'd filed a shitload of fake receipts, so many that

420
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 2: he'd had them printed at print shops to mimic real receipts.

421
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 2: He had like ongoing relationships with print to fake receipts

422
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,479
Speaker 2: that he sent into the Navy to get reimbursed for stuff.

423
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:07,679
Speaker 3: That's pretty funny.

424
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 2: So they investigators get Mason dead to rights and they're like, hey,

425
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 2: you want to keep that Blue Navy Seal wall of

426
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:17,639
Speaker 2: silence up or do you want to not go to prison?

427
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 2: And Mason says, oh, I'll roll on dick if it's

428
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,680
Speaker 2: between that in prison. So he gives them a bunch

429
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 2: of information about widespread financial improprieties directed by Marsinco Mason

430
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 2: was charged with thirty seven counts of various kinds of

431
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 2: fraud and offered a suspended sentence for flipping on Marsenko.

432
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 2: He agreed, and he gave the Navy info on a

433
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 2: scam Marsenco had just perpetrated during his Red Cell days.

434
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,439
Speaker 2: Dick had cooked up a scheme with Mason after Mason

435
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 2: had left the Navy and was a civilian working for

436
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 2: a contractor. Marsinko agreed to order forty three hundred experimental

437
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 2: grenades for Red Cell, with Sealed Team six sponsoring the

438
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 2: contract because it's a Red Cell's a classified unit, so

439
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 2: they're doing purchasing through Red Cell right now. The idea

440
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 2: was that these forty three hundred experimental grenades were repinnable,

441
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 2: so if you pulled out the pen you could change

442
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 2: your mind later I guess, and like put it back

443
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 2: in so you could make the grenades safe, and he

444
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 2: wanted to test them with his new Elite unit. There's

445
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 2: debates about this. One source says they were just normal grenades,

446
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 2: that was always a lie in his book, or seems

447
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 2: to be convinced that they were experimental grenades. I don't

448
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 2: know the truth. The grenades sold for three hundred and

449
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars and the manufacturer kicked one hundred and

450
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 2: ten thousand back to Ramco, the company that Marsenko and

451
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 2: Mason had formed. So he is lying to just get

452
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 2: startup money for a new business, Like that's the purpose here,

453
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 2: is Like they're creating a con grenade buy in order

454
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 2: to steal money from the Navy that they will then

455
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 2: put into a business for their civilian lives. Right, So

456
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 2: that was the idea. But Mason gets the money first,

457
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 2: and he blows all of their money on fancy cars

458
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: and like a lavish office space for the I don't

459
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 2: even know what the business was supposed to be. So

460
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty seven, Marseille has tried in federal court

461
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: with bribery and conspiracy. The first trial ends in a

462
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: hung jury in the second and January of nineteen ninety

463
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 2: sees him found guilty and sentenced to twenty one months

464
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 2: in a minimum security prison. So Richard goes away for

465
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 2: a while. He's out of the Navy and he is

466
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 2: officially persona non grata among the Seals, and this is

467
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,919
Speaker 2: the end of his military career, right, Richard Marsingle, we'll

468
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 2: hear him a couple of times. Still old Old Dicky's

469
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 2: still out there, good, but he's not in charge of anything.

470
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty seven, the name of Seal Team six

471
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: was changed to Naval Special Warfare Development Group, or dev GREW,

472
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 2: and this is the official name today. They're no longer

473
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 2: called Team six. People still call them Team six all

474
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 2: the time. Yeah, people, I mean a lot of people

475
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: know they're called dev GREW too, But like dev grew

476
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 2: is the official name, right, And as you might guess

477
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: by the fact that everyone does still call it Seal

478
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 2: Team six, Marsinko's legacy was hard to eradicate.

479
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 3: Right.

480
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: You can change the name, but you can't necessarily change

481
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 2: the culture that this guy started off in.

482
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 4: There. It's all branding and culture. It's the real shit.

483
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 4: I guess.

484
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 2: The branding is where criminals and no one tells us

485
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 2: what to do, and also we get to murder whoever

486
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 2: we want. Yeah, shocking, shocking that branding caused some problems.

487
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 2: You know, whose branding has never caused problems?

488
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: I was hoping you wouldn't do that.

489
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 3: It's pretty good.

490
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 2: It's pretty good, pretty good, pretty good ad pivot All right,

491
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: everybody go away.

492
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 3: Well, don't go away. Listen to ads. We're back.

493
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: So it's December of nineteen eighty nine. The good people

494
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 2: of the George H. W. Bush administration have decided that

495
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 2: the United States still has not gotten enough of its

496
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: mojo back post Vietnam, and so we invade Panama. There

497
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 2: are other reasons involving Manuel Noriega and cocaine, but we

498
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: went over those in are behind the Bastard's episodes on

499
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: Panama with Chelsea Manning, So go listen to those if

500
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 2: you want to know why Panama happened. Contrasting with Grenada,

501
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 2: there was a ton enough time to plan before invading Panama.

502
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: Grenada they have to throw together really quick, which is

503
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 2: part of why shits so slap dash. Panama shouldn't have

504
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 2: been in part because like while they're planning it, we

505
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: have bases there, So we literally have like our guys

506
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 2: planning the invasions, like walking around and like taking notes

507
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: on the stuff they're going to be doing for a while.

508
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: That's really kind of the ideal situation to invade another country.

509
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 5: I mean, it's the Red Team, you know, yeah, the

510
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 5: Red Cell approach.

511
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 3: Just yeah.

512
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: However, the fact that we have all this planning time

513
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 2: may have actually hurt the Seals because the people of

514
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 2: Panama are generally friendly. They really like Americans, They tend

515
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: to be nice. They tended to be nice to American soldiers.

516
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: That was the attitude of the government at the time.

517
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 2: And so the Bush administration doesn't want to have a

518
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 2: lot of civilian casualties. To explain, it doesn't want damage

519
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: to a lot of infrastructure, right, They just want Noriega

520
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 2: out and to be able to, like, you know, do

521
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: their own stuff, right, So they test the Seals with

522
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: taking and capturing the airport that holds Noriega's jet, and

523
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: they test them with doing it only with small arms.

524
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 2: So we're not going to try to take this out

525
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: with an air strike, and we're not going to give

526
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 2: you what guys, heavier equipment, and we're not going to

527
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: give you like send in a larger unit or unit

528
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: backed up with armor. We're going to send in a

529
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: small group of elite Seals with small arms to take

530
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: this hanger. Right, So the guys they send them, it.

531
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 5: Feels like the Seals bluff has just been called. Basically,

532
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 5: it's like, oh, okay, kind of does that's kind of dust.

533
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 5: Captain badass. You should be able to do this like

534
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 5: a knife.

535
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

536
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: So this is not Team six, this is Seal Team four.

537
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: But the op is a massive shit show, so much

538
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 2: of one that it becomes historic because the seals kind

539
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 2: of as they're approaching this hangar, they have to do

540
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 2: so in the open, and they have like night vision,

541
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: so when they get up to a certain point, they

542
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: can see who's in the hangar, but that's also the

543
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 2: point at which they're like ten or fifteen something yards away,

544
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: and so they get up close in the second they

545
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 2: see these guys, they realize they're completely in the open,

546
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: and those there's like a dozen or so guys dudes

547
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 2: in there who are all guns trained on them and

548
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: immediately open fire and there is zero cover. And if

549
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: you watch like movies the way Navy seals are, you've

550
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: got something like twenty four I think like around two

551
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 2: dozen seals.

552
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 3: It's like or more.

553
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: It's like a it's like was a historically large group

554
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: of seals. There were huge arguments about should multiple platoons

555
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: because we don't seals don't train to fight that way

556
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 2: at this time. Should they have sent in like I

557
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: think it was two platoons, but they outnumbered the enemy

558
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: two to one. Again, in the movies, they would have

559
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: killed these guys in a second. But this is real life,

560
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: and it doesn't matter how well trained you are in

561
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 2: real life, if you are in the open fifteen or

562
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: twenty meters away from people with a machine gun, you're

563
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 2: gonna die. And that's what happens. It's possible that only

564
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 2: two men actually fired back into the seals, but they

565
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: immediately kill four and wound like seven or eight, where

566
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: they take like half the unit out of commission almost instantly.

567
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 3: Now, the Seals do.

568
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 2: Eventually accomplish the mission, but not because they take like

569
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: the hangar gets abandoned by these guys. They like leave

570
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: after a while, and it's just it's a really bad time.

571
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: Like the Seals have a horrible time. A lot of

572
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 2: them die or get horribly injured. Noriegan never even tries

573
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: to go for his jets, so their sacrifice is completely

574
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 2: meaningless and their opponents flee rather than being defeated in

575
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 2: a satisfying way. It's the worst it could have gone.

576
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: And again it's because this is not a thing any

577
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: guys should be doing. We know, if you just send

578
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: dudes directly into the law of a machine gun.

579
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 3: They died, it doesn't matter if their seals.

580
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: There's no reason conventional infantry should have handled this.

581
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 5: But it's the same version as like a Navy seal.

582
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 5: This is just like, is this the same as just

583
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 5: like a stealth bomber being taken out with an ied

584
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 5: kind of.

585
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 2: If something like that were to happen, that's kind of

586
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 2: your idea, is that, like, this incredibly valuable unit that's

587
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: highly trained was sent in to do something that was

588
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 2: You should not have elite, highly trained operators just running

589
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: into guns like that. It's stupid. Also, during the same thing,

590
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: Team six tried to capture Noriega.

591
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 3: They didn't.

592
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: In the wake of the invasion, the commander of US Forces,

593
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: Lieutenant General Carl Steiner, bragged that everything had gone so

594
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 2: well there were no real lessons to learn, which gives

595
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: you an idea of why the US military sometimes makes

596
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 2: the same mistakes over and over again. Cover your ass great, Okay,

597
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 2: So the Persian Gulf conflict is probably going to be

598
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 2: the high water mark for unproblematic seal success at war.

599
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: Because Commanding General Norman Schwartzkoff hated special forces. He's very

600
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: distrusting of Special Forces. He only wants the West Coast

601
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 2: Seals participating because they're seen as less problematic. I think

602
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: that's some of Richard's legacy. Still, he probably would have

603
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 2: been annoyed if he wasn't still in prison in March

604
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety now, maybe because there weren't guys like

605
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 2: Marsenko around at the time. The Seals get integrated effectively

606
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 2: into a broader military apparatus during Desert Storm at one point,

607
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: Like one of the things that the Seals do are

608
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: used to do, is a six man unit is sent

609
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 2: in to create a diversion, Like they're basically swimming by

610
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: a coast and they're trying to like fake and make

611
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 2: it look like an invasion is coming by carrying out

612
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: acts of like subterfusee and sabotage. And they're able to

613
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: successfully draw two full Iraqi visions away from engaging the

614
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: US and combat. And that's exactly the kind of shit

615
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: Seals are supposed to be doing, right, right, Like, that's

616
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: undeniably useful. It does require people who think outside the box,

617
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: It requires courage and creativity, and it saved a bunch

618
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: of lives net Like that's a good example of how

619
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 2: you could use guys with this sort of training, right,

620
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: so they can be used effectively, you know, outside of that,

621
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: Seals track and remove sea mines, and they do search

622
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: and rescue for down down pilots the captured oil platform

623
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: and none of them die.

624
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: So Desert Storm goes pretty well for the Seals.

625
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 5: But that's like most of the time, it's always leadership, right,

626
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 5: it's always just like like actually being used correctly. It's doable.

627
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 5: They are human psychos, but you can put them in

628
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 5: the right place.

629
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: Schwartz Coough number one does not buy into all of

630
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: the bullshit around the mythology of these units. Number two,

631
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: he's he's using him to accomplish a really reasonable thing,

632
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: to use a small unit like that for right, the

633
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: tasks they're being set.

634
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

635
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: My memory of him is he just seemed like a

636
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: guy that had a turkey sandwich with no condiments on

637
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: it every day. Yeah.

638
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, Fellow.

639
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: I read his autobiography as a kid. He was a

640
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: Bland or Bland Fellow. Weirdly enough, he grew up in

641
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: Tehran as a child, which is kind of strange. His

642
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 2: dad was like an ambassador, something very strange.

643
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: Andrew, you think he has a like whitebread turkey sandwich,

644
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: no seasoning with just a piece of lettuce.

645
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, lettuce, one of the men.

646
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: You can imagine, Yeah, Storm and Norman absolutely.

647
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 4: Half a packet of.

648
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: Half a packet of mayo, but just next to the sandwich.

649
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: Like my grandpa used to just open a bottle of

650
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: vermouth when he was mixing his his Martinez. That kind

651
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: of idea, just a good seasoning. Yeah, salt is in

652
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: the house next door. Yes, So by the nineteen nineties,

653
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: that's like kind of the mid to late nineties, the

654
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 2: Sea had been in a wide range of conflicts that

655
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 2: they could draw experience from when looking and planning for

656
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: the future. They had been successfully integrated into the modern

657
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: war fighting machine of the United States. And this is

658
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: where the book Brave Men, Dark Waters ends and author

659
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: or Kelly notes that a couple of points that he

660
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: felt like worried him about the organization's future. So this

661
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: is or writing post Desert Storm and before nine to eleven,

662
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: right about what he's afraid is going to happen to

663
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: the Seals in the future. The Seals have not been

664
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: very good at learning from their experiences, especially when things

665
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: go wrong, and applying those lessons to the future. A

666
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: meeting devoted to seal participation and Operation just Cause was

667
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: held shortly after the operation, but most of the seals

668
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: present found the briefing unsatisfactory and a few were so

669
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: disturbed that they walked out. Right, that's the reading on

670
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: like that Panama shit show. And I don't know if

671
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: they walked out because they were disturbed how bad the

672
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: planning was, or were disturbed that guys didn't want them

673
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: to do shit, Like, It's a little unclear to me,

674
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: but it shows that there's this kind of institutional unwillingness

675
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: to really critique as much of what they're doing. You know,

676
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: you could treat critique Big Navy, and that's ores fear

677
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,239
Speaker 2: for the Seals as they go forward, and it's going

678
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: to prove to be kind of prescient.

679
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 4: It's so like.

680
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: These tough guys are kind of just soft baby boys

681
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: that any kind to never be mean to them and

682
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: always treat them like special angel boys. Yeah, it's weird

683
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: for as tough as they claim to be. So there's

684
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: a real debate post Gulf War about the purpose of

685
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: Navy seals and what it should be in a world

686
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: where guided missiles had relieved them of many of their

687
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: previous duties of doing sabotage. Well, we don't need to

688
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: send like some guys and flippers to sabotage refinearty.

689
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 3: We can shoot a missile at it. Right.

690
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: In his book, Or noted that Seals had previously focused

691
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: primarily on their ability to influence events by violence in

692
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: contrast with the Army Special Forces, and that they might

693
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 2: need to learn more about how influencing hearts and mind

694
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: should work. He's talking about Army Special Forces or the

695
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 2: Green Berets, and he's talking about how the Seals, maybe

696
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: in the future, will need to be more like that.

697
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 3: Right, And even.

698
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: Then some has resisted this idea, as Or wrote, one

699
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: form of violence that Seals talk about among themselves is

700
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: the possibility of capturing or killing terrorist leaders or even

701
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: foreign heads of state. One of the frustrations of their

702
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: involvement in Desert Shield In the Desert Storm was that

703
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 2: Saddam Hussein remained off limits. Attempting to take out Husain

704
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: would have been an assignment Taylor made for the specially

705
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 2: trained anti terrorist experts of Seal Team six. In fact,

706
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: one former member of the team, while at the Naval

707
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: Postgraduate school, wrote a study of how the team might

708
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: be used to carry out clandestine assassination attempts. His thesis

709
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: remains highly classified. Cool just thinking about. You know, that's

710
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: not necessarily the Seals, But are you stuff special forces

711
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: guys are doing in the Trump era to stay?

712
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 4: Do you regret back going.

713
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 5: To college to write fanfic about fucking like murdering Saddam Hussein?

714
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: I do?

715
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 4: I do?

716
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: I mean I would have written fanfic about writing a

717
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: novel with Saddam Hussein, which remains my chief goal. You know,

718
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: I'm a fan of him for his other work. I

719
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: don't forgive him for you know, oh for the crimes,

720
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: but his romance novels. You know, he's an artist. You

721
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: got to separate the artist. Artists very hard to do

722
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: with something say so or Kelly also related his concern

723
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 2: that Seals in Panama had shown they had issues working

724
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: in large, multi platoon groups. Furthermore, their extraordinary abilities only

725
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 2: really were at the their peak when they had rapid

726
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: air and artillery support. Right, the Seals are only able

727
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: to be the most effective when they have a lot

728
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 2: of guys backing them. And if you know that had

729
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: been a facet of most seal ops since nom But

730
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: that means like, if you don't have access to that stuff,

731
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: are they as capable?

732
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 3: Are they likely to get into problems? You know?

733
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 5: And global war on it's always it's awfully stone soup

734
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 5: with the Seals, isn't it.

735
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 4: It's like.

736
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 5: Navy seals and fucking air support and an army behind them,

737
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 5: and they'll do whatever you want.

738
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: They're they're great with all the air support they can

739
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: all in. They're deadly as ll. So the Global War

740
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: on Terror would prove some of these fears prescient and

741
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: give Marsenko's old unit in particular a chance to make

742
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: a name for themselves as the President's assassins. Before all that,

743
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: we get to the nineties, a glorious decade of peace

744
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: and prosperity. Will nothing bad happened if you don't count

745
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: the Balkans, Rwanda or several other places anyway. In nineteen

746
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: ninety two, Richard Marsenko gets out of prison and publishes

747
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: the book Rogue Warrior, which is the first account of

748
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: life inside Seal Team six written by a seal. Even

749
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: though Marsenko was disgraced, it timed perfectly with the post

750
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: Desert Storm hype and millions of copies were sold. So

751
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 2: the book is a stupendous hit among civilians who wanted

752
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: a glimpse inside the rarefied air of Special Forces. And

753
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: they'd already thought these guys were basically superheroes, So Maarsenko's

754
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: bold claims didn't seem so wild, Like the reader is

755
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: prepped to believe anything about a Seal Team six guy. Right,

756
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,479
Speaker 2: if he says he was doing crazy operations with Team

757
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 2: six while he was leading them, even though they they

758
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 2: weren't doing all that much, it must be true because

759
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: he founded Seal Team six. Right, we're in the Van

760
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 2: Damn Era. Yeah, Steve, of course this is what they do,

761
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: see it says. It says a lot about the veracity

762
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 2: of Richard's first book, Rogue Warrior, that he follows his autobiography,

763
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 2: his non fiction autobiography, with a fiction novel series also

764
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 2: called Rogue Warrior. What hell Yeah, he creates a bunch

765
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: of fiction novels with the same title in branding as

766
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 2: his autobiography that's supposed to be nonfiction.

767
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 4: Makes sense.

768
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 3: I think the idea is these were.

769
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 2: Based on the real classified missions I tell you about those,

770
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: you know.

771
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 3: But yeah, I.

772
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: Love when you do that boy, Based on a true story.

773
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: Based on a true story, that's all we need to

774
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 2: put in the hollywoods.

775
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: They're like Warrior.

776
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 2: That's right, great title printed. The first of the fictional

777
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: Rogue Warrior novels was Rogue Warrior Green Team, which spiraled

778
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: out into the long series of subsequent novels ostensibly based

779
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 2: on Marsenko's real life, with him as the lead character

780
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 2: and also on the cover. So if he's going to

781
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: show you a copy of Rogue Warrior two red Cell,

782
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: that's actually Richard Marsenko.

783
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 3: He's got like Steven, are you ready for it's Andrew.

784
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: I don't think I am actually oh man, so again,

785
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: he's got a ponytail and a beard. He looks like

786
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: segall in the nineties, the purposefully probably he's.

787
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 3: Wearing all black.

788
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 2: He's got like an MP five submachine gun crossed against

789
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: it over his heart like it's a fucking I don't know,

790
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 2: a crucifix.

791
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's always tweet.

792
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 3: Oh man, it's so sad. Okay Richard, okay man.

793
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 2: It was through these novels, which make him a rich man,

794
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: that Marsenko would prove himself forever the smartest member of

795
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: Team six. Instead of risking his freedom and money by

796
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 2: telling us government secrets like some subsequent Team six members,

797
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 2: he could just lie and tend to be giving away

798
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: secrets up.

799
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, just make shit up.

800
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 2: I need to read you how the book is still

801
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: sold today. This is from the audible description. When Richard

802
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: Marsenko wrote his best selling autobiography Rogue Warrior, he and

803
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: co writer John Weissman were bound by government restrictions and

804
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: could only tell a fraction of his incredible story. Now,

805
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,479
Speaker 2: the tales he could not tell, the secrets he could

806
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 2: not reveal explode in Rowe Warrior two. Red Cell, a

807
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: riveting new novel with Marcinko himself as the hero.

808
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 4: Oh my god, love it, love it.

809
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 2: I love the tales he couldn't tell a riveting new

810
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: novel with himself as the hero. Yeah, I'm sure these

811
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: are real stories, Richard.

812
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 3: So this is him this.

813
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: I picked Red Cell because we know the real Red

814
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 2: Cell story. So here's what Richard wants.

815
00:38:58,920 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 3: People to believe.

816
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 2: What he was doing with Red Cell, instead of nearly

817
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 2: getting his men killed by a dude's wife and having

818
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: another one of them seriously injure himself torturing a man.

819
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 2: Quote freelance security consultant Dick Marsenko is playing terrorists at

820
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: Tokyo's Narita Airport, easily penetrating the facility's defenses. He engages

821
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: in a deadly firefight with North Korean operatives and discovers

822
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: that a group of traitorous Americans are smuggling nuclear materials

823
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 2: to North Korea and Japan. With nowhere else to turn,

824
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 2: the former Secretary of Defense recalls Marsinco to the Navy

825
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: against his will, to command Red Cell, a Dirty dozen

826
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 2: seal team Marsinko created from infiltrating Washington's Navy Yard offices

827
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: and secret special nuclear weapons depot in California to raiding

828
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: a North Korean Navy base and target far out in

829
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: the Pacific. The Row Warrior and his marauding seals fight

830
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 2: incredible odds and increasingly dangerous enemies. Yeah that's real, man, Yeah,

831
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: I love that a group of traders Americans are smuggling

832
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 2: nukes to North Korea and Japan. Here ally is in

833
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: nuclear warfare, North Korea and Japan shaking hands?

834
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: What is their plan? Why do North Korea and Japan

835
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 3: want nukes together? It's just you know, for the vibe.

836
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 4: I guess it's the Mecca Godzilla.

837
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: Mecca might be mecha Godzilla. That's actually possible as possible.

838
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 2: On September eleventh, two thousand and one, some unfortunate things

839
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 2: went down, and at the end of it, two pretty

840
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 2: big buildings were gone. Because the guys behind this had

841
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: mostly been Saudi terrorists living in the Afghanistan. The United

842
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 2: States goes to war with Afghanistan. From beginning, it's pretty

843
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: clear that this was, you know, not going to be

844
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 2: a normal kind of conflict, in part because it's Afghanistan

845
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: and wars don't tend to go very well.

846
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 3: There, Right, Yeah, a lot, a lot.

847
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: Of the operational burden in Afghanistan from the beginning we

848
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 2: knew was going to be put on US special forces,

849
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: right and actually at the start, when US troops first

850
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan, they're basically one hundred percent of the war

851
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: effort in the earliest days. It's not long after the

852
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,479
Speaker 2: Twin Towers fell, but the Navy Seals who were still

853
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: largely the force they'd been in the nineteen nineties at

854
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: that point, which is, you know, men trained mostly for

855
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: coastal operations who specialized in hunting, tracking, and destroying Afghanistan

856
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: was new terrain and a new kind of war to them,

857
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 2: and when it began, most of them had no combat experience.

858
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: And there were a lot of lessons that are going

859
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 2: to be learned in Afghanistan, and not all of it

860
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: is going to be I mean, there are a lot

861
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: of lessons that are going to be learned in blood

862
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan, and it's not just going to be seal blood.

863
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: Them fucking up is going to cost a lot of

864
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: other people their lives. Some of this is just an

865
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 2: unavoidable consequence of war. When you invade a country, especially

866
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: with an army where most people haven't like done that

867
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,439
Speaker 2: stuff before you, when your special forces guys usually haven't

868
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 2: been in combat, there's going to be even more mistakes

869
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 2: than there normally is in a war if you've got

870
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 2: like a lot of people who have been in combat before.

871
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: So like that stuff's going to happen too. It's just

872
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: you're going to have a lot of fuck ups in

873
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 2: the early stages of special forces involvement because in part

874
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: specially had to fight. When you drop your water type

875
00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 2: Pokemon right into an earth an is as much as

876
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: I know about that, But I feel like I'm correct,

877
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: that's more or less how military strategy works. Actually, Andrew,

878
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 2: you know who else knows how military strategy works. The

879
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: sponsors of this podcast, all of whom are actively planning

880
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: to invade the United States and subjected to an authoritarian rule.

881
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 5: But you know that part's actually true. This is the

882
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 5: I've heard for a while.

883
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 3: And we're back.

884
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 2: So in January of two thousand and two, a Seal

885
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 2: Team six officer named Vic Heider murdered an unarmed Afghan

886
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: man at the first Team six action of the war.

887
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 2: Hyder had been leading a team to capture Al Qaida

888
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: guys in a compound. After the mission was completed, the

889
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: seals took fire from somewhere and after that, an old

890
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: man walked up to them as they were evacing. So, right,

891
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: they captured some guys in a compound, there's a firefight

892
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 2: after it's completed. They're taking fire, they can't see who's

893
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: shooting at them. And then around the same time, an

894
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: old man is just kind of walking because they're just

895
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: out in Afghanistan and there's just a dude who lives

896
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: there and he's walking around, and because it's dark, Hider

897
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: starts shouting at the man to stop. But this guy

898
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: doesn't speak English, he's in his own country, he isn't

899
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 2: know what's being said, and he's elderly. He can't see

900
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: for shit, and so he keeps stumbling in their direction

901
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: and hider who's got like night vision and is not

902
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: in direct Dangerum, this man decides he's close enough that

903
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: if he has a grenade, he could hurt me. So

904
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 2: I must assume he has a grenade, and he shoots

905
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: this elderly man to death. Right, the thing that had

906
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: been in his hand that Hyder word was a grenade

907
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 2: turned out to be a cassette from a tape player.

908
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 2: Now again, if we're talking about it's bad when cops

909
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: do this all the time, but cops don't have very

910
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: good I mean, this is part Here's what I'll tell you.

911
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: This is why the training argument is bullshit for cops, right,

912
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: because the argument is, well, cops do this, but it's

913
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: because we need to fix their training. These guys had

914
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: all the training in the world. No cop will ever

915
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: have more training than Vic Hyder. Is he shot a

916
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 2: man with a fucking cassette in his hand, right, that

917
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: what you're asking them to do, there's no training that

918
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: will stop that they make decisions themselves past a certain point,

919
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: and a lot of guys in situations like this will

920
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 2: decide my life matters more than any random dude whose

921
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 2: country I just stepped into. Right, yeah, well, and you

922
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: could argue that these guys clearly have been told they

923
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: are so valuable as humans that their life is worth

924
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: much more than any random person. You know, the potential

925
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: that they might be hurt means the has to die.

926
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: Vic says that, and I'm sure who's taught that. What

927
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: should tell you that that's not universal is a bunch

928
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 2: of his men complain, right, yeah, he's an officer, A

929
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: bunch of his enlisted men. The guys that are supposed

930
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 2: to be like the real pipe eders are like, that's

931
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: fucked up, dude, you just murdered an old guy, and

932
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 2: they complain and it gets put down to officer enlisted rivalry. Eh,

933
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: they just don't like their officer, you know, right, yesus

934
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 2: Hider was not well liked in the unit for stuff

935
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 2: like this. One reason, and this is a reason that

936
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 2: also causes a lot of fucked up behavior, is that

937
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 2: some officers don't all go through like the really intense

938
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: selection necessarily that seals enlisted seals do. You don't necessarily

939
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 2: go through all of the same shit if you're an officer,

940
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: because it's a different job. In the way you get

941
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: there is different, right, and that causes some of the conflicts.

942
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 2: And some of these officers are insecure about maybe I

943
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 2: don't really deserve to be here, and some of them

944
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: compensate for that insecurity by becoming ultraviolent.

945
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 3: Right.

946
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: That is a pattern that occurs among the teams periodically.

947
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 2: It's not every officer who does this, but some of

948
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: these guys, and it comes sometimes from insecurity. I'm sure

949
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 2: some of them would do that if they were an

950
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 2: enlisted man too, because theyre's just psychos, right, I'm.

951
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 3: Just trying to provide you some explanation.

952
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 4: For the motivation. It's obviously.

953
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's got to be some of both, but

954
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: the insecurity here isn't to zero percent of the factor, right.

955
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

956
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 2: At the time of combat operations in Afghanistan, Team six

957
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 2: had about two hundred operators split into three assault teams, Blue, Red,

958
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 2: and Gold. Each team got a mascot and proving that

959
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 2: Navy seals are no different than fifteen year olds. This

960
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 2: immediately started to get out of hand, right, because they

961
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: get way too into their fucking mascots. Now, the biggest

962
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 2: problem is that Red Team has a Native Americ stereotypical

963
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 2: Native American warrior as their mascot, right, and they call

964
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 2: themselves the Red Men. Blue Team are the Pirates and

965
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 2: they fly a jolly roger into battle. And Gold Team

966
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 2: are the Knights or Crusaders, and they wear Crusaders crosses

967
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: and lions. And you can imagine how comfortable some of

968
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: this imagery gets Jesus Christ. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the worst would

969
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 2: be the Red Men, the ones with like a racist nickname.

970
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: In his book, Matthew Cole writes, quote, since the nineteen eighties,

971
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 2: when Red Team was first created, there were many operators

972
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 2: in the unit who had experienced a metamorphosis of identity

973
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: and persona into Native American warriors. This is something that

974
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: officers and the team who are critical of the culture

975
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 2: will say, And some of us said, guys, that's how

976
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: they describe it, that it's a metamorphosis.

977
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 3: These guys really believe that.

978
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 2: Again, you don't have to credit these guys are knowing

979
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: anything about any Native American tribe, knowing anything about history,

980
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 2: knowing anything but shit they've seen on bullshit movies, but

981
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 2: they think that's cool and they get way into the idea. Yeah, right,

982
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 2: that's all I'm saying. Please don't. It's a cartoon, right.

983
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: I have never gotten enough detail about exactly what's meant

984
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 2: by metamorphosis. I'd really like to talk to some dudes

985
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: about that. But the most demonstrable part of it is

986
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: unfortunately quite racist, which is that as the war on

987
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: Terror goes on, some of these dudes start taking scalps. Now,

988
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: of course this had not happened at the start of

989
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: the when Hiders and Abbey. This doesn't start immediately, right,

990
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 2: But Hider is one of the guys who kind of

991
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 2: starts the latter of escalation of brutality that helps lead

992
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 2: in that direction, right. And he's, among other things, he's

993
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: a guy who feels like I need to prove I

994
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 2: deserve to be here, right, being ultra violent. Right, So

995
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 2: the classic small man bully, right, like five very small man.

996
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 2: On March sixth, two thousand and two, the ten Commander

997
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 2: Hider led more than twenty Seal Team six operators in

998
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: two chinooks on a mission to kill or capture Bin Laden.

999
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: As you can guess from the date, it didn't go well.

1000
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: Intel had revealed and I'll heid a convoy traveling in

1001
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 2: the area which was bombed by the US Air Force

1002
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: before the seals went in. Some operators protested having the

1003
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: air Force bombed the convoy. They're like, our job is

1004
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 2: to be super discriminating guys who can get really close

1005
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 2: and we could know because they didn't really know is

1006
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,919
Speaker 2: this convoy bad guys or not? And our jobs should

1007
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 2: have been to get in there close and see if

1008
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: we needed to attack this convoy, right, we could have

1009
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: verified that. And it turns out the intel was wrong.

1010
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: The air Force had just bombed a family caravan and

1011
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: their Chinook's gunners had unloaded into women and children who

1012
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: were being protected by the bodies of their men. And

1013
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: so when the seals land, they see these guys were

1014
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 2: like throwing themselves these piles of corpses where men are

1015
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: trying to shield their children and wives from the gunfire

1016
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: of the ship that these seals had just been in.

1017
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 3: And it fucked some of these guys up.

1018
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 4: Right.

1019
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 2: It's a pretty awful thing to see. And not all

1020
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 2: of these guys are completely dead inside and fine with

1021
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 2: that despite the fact that it's immediately clear none of

1022
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 2: these people were involved in anything. Heighter and several seals

1023
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: continued to treat them as combatants. Per Cole's book quote,

1024
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 2: Hyder said that he and a few other seals began

1025
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 2: to bury the casualties near Ravine by piling rocks over them.

1026
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 2: As he did so, he approached the man Heath had shot.

1027
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: He was partly partially alive, faced out his back to me,

1028
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 2: and he rolled over. I shot him, finished him. He

1029
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 2: was dying, but he rolled over and I didn't know

1030
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 2: whether he was armed or not. That was the end

1031
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 2: of that. Hyder said that his single shot had blasted

1032
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: open the man's head. So Jesus, there's this guy who

1033
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: isn't dead and this instead of trying to render aid,

1034
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 2: he's just like, well, I thought he might have had

1035
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 2: a weapon.

1036
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 3: So mentioning this.

1037
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: Guy who's dying on the ground might have a weapon

1038
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 2: is like, and I guess that's peak cowardice. It's just

1039
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: like and there's some other seals who were there at

1040
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: the time who do complain about it this say like, well,

1041
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 2: they had weapons, but they were family weapons. Like, it's

1042
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 2: Afghanistan people, it doesn't like they're not al Qaeda. Because

1043
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 2: they have a gun. You know, that's just life out here. So,

1044
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 2: according to Hider, the encounter ended there after he shoots

1045
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: this wounded guy. But a retired seal who was there

1046
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 2: on the mission told a different story to Cole. And

1047
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 2: according to this person, after Hider shoots this wounded man,

1048
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,720
Speaker 2: who was unarmed by the way, Hider proceed to mutilate

1049
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: his body by stomping in his already damaged skull and

1050
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 2: like spreading brains out everywhere. And there's a chunk of

1051
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 2: guys who think this is cool, and there's a chunk

1052
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: of guys who are fucking horrified.

1053
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: Right.

1054
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 2: Heath, who had shot the man initially and witnessed Hider's actions,

1055
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: reports them to his team leader. He's like, look, I

1056
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 2: shot this guy because I thought he needed to, and

1057
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 2: then he just mutilates this guy. She kills this guy

1058
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 2: when he doesn't need to mutilate his corpse. Like, I

1059
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 2: think that's fucked up, and I don't feel good about it.

1060
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 3: Right When he.

1061
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: Does this quote, several of the guys turned and walked away.

1062
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 2: According to the retired seal, they were disgusted. He quoted

1063
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: Heath as saying, I'm morally flexible but I can't handle

1064
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 2: that right. So the way, at least in this report,

1065
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 2: a lot of people are grossed out by what Hyder does,

1066
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 2: and he does start to get iced out from the

1067
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: seals at this point, or from some units. They have

1068
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 2: this way of if you're an officer and you're grossed

1069
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: like that, when you rotate out, we don't have to

1070
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: let you back in. And so sometimes stuff like that happens.

1071
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 2: But what you should take from this isn't just that

1072
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: there are seals who are grossed out this who report him.

1073
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: There's also seals who think it's cool and you don't

1074
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 2: have a problem with it. And in this instance, maybe

1075
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: Hyder gets, you know, what i'd call a slap on

1076
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: the wrist, and there's a little bit of accountability, just

1077
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: a teeny amount eventually for him, not really much. But

1078
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 2: in the future this is going to become like in

1079
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 2: other units, when this stuff happens, it won't be people

1080
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 2: won't complain, right, people will be okay with it. That's

1081
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 2: going to happen increasingly often after this point too, and

1082
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 2: it's going to happen because of something that goes down.

1083
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: On March of two thousand and two, a team of

1084
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 2: Team six seals under Master Chief Britz Slabinski, are in

1085
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 2: a chinook looking for a bent laden soaring over a

1086
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 2: mountain that they'd been told had no enemy presence. When

1087
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 2: they get hit with an RPG. Petty Officer first Class

1088
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 2: Neil Roberts falls from the bird right he'd been you know,

1089
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 2: the chopper has like I think it's ramped down, and

1090
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 2: he's standing out there and it gets hit and he falls,

1091
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 2: and he falls and hits so hard that he bends

1092
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 2: the stock of his rifle on the way down, so

1093
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 2: he doesn't have the normal armament that he would have.

1094
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 2: Even they think he's you know, they don't know if

1095
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 2: he's dead or not. But the pilot can't stop to

1096
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 2: rescue him, so they have to get back. And when

1097
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: they return the base with that chopper, Slabinsky gets in

1098
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 2: another chopper with the rest of his men and they

1099
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 2: head back to rescue Roberts. But in the interim period,

1100
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 2: Roberts had been found by al Qaeda fighters and they

1101
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 2: had killed him and stripped his body for gear, and

1102
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 2: one fighter had attempted to saw his head off as

1103
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 2: a trophy. Now, seals do this all the time, as

1104
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 2: we've talked about when war hits a certain kind of level.

1105
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 2: People do this all over the world. There's no way

1106
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 2: to avoid types of this other than not going to war.

1107
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 2: You know, that's the real way if you want to

1108
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 2: ensure this shit doesn't happen. But again, these seals are

1109
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:43,840
Speaker 2: new to Afghanistan and this really like enrages them. These people,

1110
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 2: they lose their minds over the fact that their buddy

1111
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: got mutilated, even though some of them had already even

1112
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: mutilating that Afghan people, right.

1113
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 5: That's pretty standard for these guys, like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

1114
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 5: Can't do that to us.

1115
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: No, no, you can't do that to us in code country.

1116
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 2: Matthew Cole quotes a former Team six leader saying, when

1117
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 2: you see your friend killed, recover his body, and find

1118
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 2: that the enemy mutilated him, it's a school yard mentality.

1119
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 2: You guys want to play with those rules, okay. And

1120
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 2: although this former seal acknowledge that war crimes are bad,

1121
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 2: he understood how often they happened. Quote, you asked me

1122
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 2: to go living with the pigs. I can't go live

1123
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: with the pigs and then not get dirty. And this

1124
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 2: is again, this is bad. This is the kind of

1125
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 2: thing there should be accountability, The military should be cracking

1126
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 2: down on this shit more right, like, this is not

1127
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 2: the sort of thing that should be allowed to happen.

1128
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 2: It's also if you're going to vote to send guys

1129
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: to war like this, stuff like this is going to happen.

1130
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 2: He is right about if you asked me to go

1131
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: living with the pigs, I can't go live with now.

1132
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 2: The pigs are anyone you ask to go murder people

1133
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 2: right in the middle of nowhere repeatedly, right regardless of

1134
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 2: what side they're on, They're going to wind up doing

1135
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 2: ugly things because that's what happens when you wind up

1136
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 2: in that kind of a fight. And yeah, it's the

1137
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: issue is that this becomes an excuse that like, well,

1138
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: this is inevitable to some extent, becomes like so we

1139
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 2: can't get angry when guys do it, as opposed to

1140
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 2: know that means if you think this war is really necessary,

1141
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 2: you actually have to punish those guys immediately and incredibly harshly,

1142
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 2: even though you know what's going to happen to some

1143
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 2: of them, and that's going to be bad to morale

1144
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 2: because otherwise things get much worse and you wind up

1145
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 2: defeating your own attempts to win hearts and minds and

1146
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 2: stop people from trying to kill your dutes, which what

1147
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 2: happens in Afghanistan. There's a direct correlation and a lot

1148
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 2: of provinces between war crimes committed by Navy Seals and

1149
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 2: excesses by US special forces and the number of Taliban

1150
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: fighters in activity and recruitment and whatnot. Right, this stuff

1151
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,720
Speaker 2: pisses people off, just like I'm an abu grabe around

1152
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 2: the same time in Iraq really pisses people off. Right,

1153
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 2: It pisses a lot of Iraqis off. It generates more

1154
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: resistance because it's horrifying to see Americans doing stuff like

1155
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: this to dudes in your country. And this, you know,

1156
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 2: this is the thing that frustrates me most in some

1157
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 2: ways about the Seals, which is that they understand that

1158
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 2: their job is to be extraordinary and they're very proud

1159
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 2: of that, but they think this really only extends. There's

1160
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 2: too many of them think that this really only extends

1161
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 2: to their ability to kill, not their ability to keep

1162
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 2: their head and their sense of morality, and a horrific situation.

1163
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 2: I would say, if you want to call yourselves truly elite,

1164
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: the best of the best, exquisitely trained. Those are the

1165
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: guys that you can trust, would be able to trust

1166
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 2: to put into a situation like this for months at

1167
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 2: a time and then not start massacring civilians. I would

1168
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 2: say that's an elite unit when you do this kind

1169
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 2: of shit where you just like the Taliban, right, right, yeah,

1170
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 2: of course, right, exactly, just a little bit of self control, yeah, yeah,

1171
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 2: Because honestly, if you're supposed to be elite, your actual

1172
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: stated job is live with the pigs and don't get dirty. Yeah,

1173
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 2: because you're better than them if you if you are,

1174
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: but you're not right, and they want to be while

1175
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 2: acting the same way, right anyway, And I think part

1176
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 2: of the reality is that like Richard Marsenko and a

1177
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 2: lot of Team six guys after him, just wanted to

1178
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 2: be really well funded and supported pigs.

1179
00:55:57,880 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 3: You know.

1180
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, right, that attitude is still present among Team some

1181
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 2: people in Team six in two thousand and two and

1182
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 2: almost twenty years after Marsenko's departure. It's present certainly in

1183
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 2: chunks of the seals across a number of different teams.

1184
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 2: The brutality in Afghanistan divided the men who saw themselves

1185
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 2: and as private professionals and harken back to the old

1186
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:22,240
Speaker 2: udt days from the men. More poured in Marsenko's mold,

1187
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,399
Speaker 2: and this would come to a head in early March

1188
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 2: of two thousand and two, after Hider's mutilation of the

1189
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 2: wounded mand and after Robert's Ridge. Right, so this is

1190
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 2: all going down in like the spring of two thousand

1191
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 2: and two, roughly forty Sealed Team six men meet at

1192
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 2: Bagram Airbase to discuss what Hider had done and what

1193
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 2: had happened to Roberts and be like, so should we

1194
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 2: just like start committing war crimes because the Taliban A,

1195
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 2: what do we do? And they talk and the claim

1196
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 2: that Cole reports in his book is that thirty five

1197
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 2: of the forty guys wound up agreeing we can shoot

1198
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 2: them and move on, but we don't mutilate them. That's

1199
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 2: not honorable, right, But five guys are like, I think

1200
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 2: I should be.

1201
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 3: Able to mutilate people.

1202
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the actual ratio. It doesn't

1203
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 2: seem impossible to believe, And I think the ratio would

1204
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 2: be a lot worse today, to be honest, you know,

1205
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,479
Speaker 2: I can believe that in two thousand and two, maybe

1206
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:06,720
Speaker 2: that's much earlier.

1207
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 4: Right, it's like the bad Apples thing. It's just like

1208
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 4: the bunch is getting spoiled guys exactly.

1209
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,800
Speaker 2: And this, this bunch who vote not to mutilate corpses

1210
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 2: are still responsible for helping to spoil the rest of

1211
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: the apples because even though they agree, we don't do that,

1212
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 2: that's not honorable and they don't like Hider, no one

1213
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 2: reports his war crime. He's not punished, right, He's pushed

1214
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 2: out of the teams quietly, right, and they'll deny, they

1215
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: won't let him get posted there again. But that's it,

1216
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 2: you know, like they're not because you don't do that

1217
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 2: in the seals. You don't punish your own guys.

1218
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 3: You know.

1219
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 2: This is Marcinko's favorite way of dealing with seals who

1220
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 2: didn't fit in, right, just you know, icing them out

1221
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 2: of the of the of the team. But it also

1222
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: means that the established standard is that guys who commit

1223
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 2: war crimes get iced out and not punished, and often

1224
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 2: continue their military careers elsewhere. This is well known to

1225
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 2: the rest of the Navy. Susan Razer, a retired naval

1226
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 2: criminal investigative of his agent, told Matthew Cole her opinion

1227
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 2: that quote, the seals believe that they can handle the

1228
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 2: discipline themselves that's equal or greater to what the criminal

1229
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 2: justice system would give to that person. And reading between

1230
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: the lines, I think that at least some of this

1231
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: refusal to hold their own accountable comes from a fear

1232
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 2: that a lot of the Saner Seals have of their

1233
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 2: more piratical peers and colleagues.

1234
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 3: Right.

1235
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 2: You get some of this in an account of that

1236
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 2: meeting by a retire that big seal meeting about whether

1237
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 2: we should mutilate corpses. And this is from a retired

1238
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: non commissioned seal. Fifi, that's Roberts was mutilated. And then

1239
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 2: we had to address a very important question, how do

1240
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 2: you get the guy's head straight to mitigate any retaliation

1241
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 2: for Fife? Otherwise we knew it's going to get out

1242
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 2: of control. A third of the guys literally think they're

1243
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 2: Apache warriors. Then you had the Muslim way of from

1244
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: moving ahead. I understand the desire, I don't condone it,

1245
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: but there was definite retaliation.

1246
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, So again you've.

1247
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 2: Got this day, he's trying to defend his unit, but

1248
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 2: he's too honest to be like yeah, but like these

1249
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 2: guys are. A lot of these guys are literally insane,

1250
00:58:57,440 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 2: and the fact that like some of these Taliban guys

1251
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 2: are pretty out there is just making them crazier. It's

1252
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 2: feeding into their delusions. You've got two groups of really extreme,

1253
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 2: heavily armed maniacs hunting each other, and it's making them

1254
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 2: all get hideously more violent, especially to the civilians. Yeah,

1255
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 2: that's this guy's argument, and we're the good guy and

1256
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 2: we're the good guys though, even though you really can't

1257
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 2: tell it. The difference from looking at all the brains

1258
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 2: splattered on the ground. God, So, in this account, Hider's

1259
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 2: mutilation gets sort of grandfathered in under the general belief

1260
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 2: that we have to allow some kind of retaliation from

1261
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 2: the craziest of the seals in order to keep the

1262
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 2: units functional. Hider, for his part, denies that he ever

1263
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 2: desecrated the body of an enemy fighter, of the dead

1264
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 2: enemy civilian to this day. Quote this is what Hyder said.

1265
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 2: Somebody else is making this up. Memories get distorted over

1266
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 2: fourteen years. They're telling you how they remember it. There

1267
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 2: was a lot of chaos. I'm telling you the absolute truth.

1268
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:50,919
Speaker 2: I actually don't know who's right, you know, to be honest,

1269
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 2: it's entirely possible someone besides Hyder did that mutilation. Shit

1270
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 2: get fucked up like stuff that happens people forget, like

1271
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 2: it's war fucks with your mind even if you're there.

1272
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 3: I don't I literally don't know.

1273
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,479
Speaker 2: But so many guys talk about this that like, yeah,

1274
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 2: I think, well, I know what the likeliest thing is.

1275
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 2: It's more or less the story that most of these

1276
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 2: seals told Cole A lot of there are several seals

1277
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 2: told Coal so Team six leadership analyzed Hider's performance after

1278
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 2: their deployment and concluded that he'd been a dangerous officer

1279
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 2: for several reasons. Despite being a ground commander. He'd repeatedly

1280
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 2: killed perceived enemies on his own rather than having his

1281
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 2: men do it. And again, the officer's supposed to be

1282
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 2: able to fight. You need to sometimes, but you're there

1283
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 2: for other reasons. You're the officer. There's a reason. If

1284
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: you're constantly just shooting dudes that you don't like need to, Yeah,

1285
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 2: then that kind of means you're not doing your job

1286
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 2: as an officer, right right.

1287
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 5: It's like one thing if this assistant manager pulls a

1288
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 5: slurpy himself, Yes, yeah.

1289
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and does it once, but if you're constantly doing

1290
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 2: it like you kind of not doing your other job,

1291
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 2: and one former seal called this a total breakdown of

1292
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 2: operational tactics. This also gets back to something Marcinco seeded

1293
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 2: into the unit. Officers and enlisted have very different, but

1294
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: not lesser job descriptions. That's the way it should work, right,

1295
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 2: you need botho. However, Marsinko's culture totally venerated the enlisted

1296
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 2: man and demonized officers, so insecure guys like Hyder came

1297
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 2: to feel that the best way to earn their place

1298
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 2: as a real pipe hitter is to just start blasting

1299
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 2: dudes as soon as they see them. And this is

1300
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 2: not going to be the last time that causes a problem.

1301
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 2: But this is the end a part three.

1302
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 3: We did it.

1303
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 4: Yay, still grim, still grim as fuck?

1304
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's gonna get grimmer.

1305
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 2: Ah.

1306
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 3: I don't know why I said it that way.

1307
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 1: Andrew, you want to do a plug real sure?

1308
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 2: Sure, let's see I used to do the know is

1309
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 2: this racist podcast? We're uh putting that on pause a

1310
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 2: little bit. But in the same feed, we're doing a

1311
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 2: podcast called Starter Trek. That's me Tawny Newsome our producer

1312
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 2: is Jesse Gender. We're also on YouTube. I'm watching a

1313
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 2: lot of Star Trek for the first time. They're watching

1314
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 2: a lot of Star Trek for like the billionth time.

1315
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 2: So uh yeah, it's it's been fun.

1316
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 5: It's been nice to not to take a little racism break. Surprised,

1317
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 5: still plenty of hits to talk.

1318
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:02,439
Speaker 4: About in Star Trek.

1319
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 2: Well, listeners, why don't you all take a racism break

1320
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: and we'll be back on Thursday.

1321
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 4: Bazza please.

1322
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1323
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1324
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1325
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video

1326
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 1: episodes that Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix,

1327
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit remind me of Netflix.

1328
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: You don't miss an episode. For clips in our older

1329
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel YouTube

1330
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: dot com slash at Behind the Bastards. We love about

1331
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: forty percent of you, statistically speaking,