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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

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Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they

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Speaker 1: mean for our psychology.

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Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to

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Speaker 2: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in

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Speaker 2: the world. Thank you so much for tuning in for

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Speaker 2: a really special episode, one that is highly requested. I

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Speaker 2: think people have a lot of questions around this idea

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Speaker 2: of trauma, not just in our twenties, but in our

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Speaker 2: lives in general. It is a super complex, nuanced space,

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Speaker 2: and I think there are a lot of misconceptions. We

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Speaker 2: see the word trauma being thrown around quite casually, but

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Speaker 2: what does it really mean from a psychological perspective. That's

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Speaker 2: what we're here to kind of break down today, and

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Speaker 2: I thought it would be important for us to bring

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Speaker 2: on a very special guest, someone who knows this space

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Speaker 2: well and who can really provide an evidence based insight

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Speaker 2: and opinion on some of the things we're going to discuss. So,

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Speaker 2: without further ado, doctor Mary Catherine McDonald, thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for joining us. Otherwise known as mc of course.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited

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Speaker 3: to be here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. When you reached out, I was like, this is

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Speaker 2: the perfect person to have on the show, because yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: because I do think that it's a question. I get

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Speaker 2: a lot people are really fascinated by trauma. I think

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Speaker 2: everyone has something that we could classify as trauma in

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Speaker 2: their past. But a lot of the information we receive

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Speaker 2: about it is through social media, is online, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: I can make things, I think more complicated rather than

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Speaker 2: more accessible. Do you want to give us a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a background and an overview of what you

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Speaker 2: do and how you came to kind of specialize in

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Speaker 2: this area on this domain.

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Speaker 3: Yes, actually so, I have a very kind of interesting

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Speaker 3: path to trauma. It was not the traditional way. I

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Speaker 3: have an interdisciplinary PhD. So I look at trauma from

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Speaker 3: the perspective of philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience. And I started

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Speaker 3: out looking at identity, and I wanted to think about

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Speaker 3: what identity was composed of, and the specific thing that

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Speaker 3: I was looking at is like, to what extent is

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Speaker 3: our psychology built in story form? And there was this

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Speaker 3: huge debate in the philosophy of psychology at the time

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Speaker 3: about that and there was one side that was arguing

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Speaker 3: that we are absolutely a coherent story beginning, middle, and end,

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Speaker 3: and all of our behaviors for the most part, fit

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Speaker 3: into a story beginning, middle, an end, and it's how

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Speaker 3: we organize the world. And then on the other side,

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Speaker 3: there was this smaller camp arguing that that was not

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Speaker 3: true and that that was harmful and that if you

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Speaker 3: think of your life as a story, that you could

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Speaker 3: actually cause psychological harm to yourself. That side, to me

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Speaker 3: seemed incorrect, like, of course there's a way in which

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Speaker 3: you could have too tighte a story, and that could

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Speaker 3: but you know, potentially be a problem if you're tying

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Speaker 3: your identity to a singular thing. That can cause issues.

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Speaker 3: But it does seem to me to be true that

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Speaker 3: our lives generally follow some kind of story form and

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Speaker 3: that we're always telling a story. And so I reached

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Speaker 3: for trauma actually because I thought it was a case

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Speaker 3: that sort of proved that there is a story, whether

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Speaker 3: you identify with it or not, because so many people

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Speaker 3: when they've been through a traumatic event talk about how

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Speaker 3: the story gets interrupted or shattered or broken. And so

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Speaker 3: I picked this up and really intended it to be

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Speaker 3: a small argument in a larger argument about the nature

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Speaker 3: of the self and identity. And then I fell down

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Speaker 3: this rabbit hole when I realized that the field of

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Speaker 3: psychology still hadn't even decided what kinds of things counted

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Speaker 3: as trauma and what kinds of things didn't. And so

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Speaker 3: as soon as I leaned into that, I just fell

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Speaker 3: on this rabbit hole. And then I started thinking like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: we need to do this better, we need to get

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Speaker 3: clear on what trauma actually is. And then I just

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Speaker 3: sort of moved into the rabbit hole and I have

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Speaker 3: been there ever since.

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Speaker 2: My goodness, pretty fascinating, pretty fascinating rabbit hole to be

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Speaker 2: and I would say.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, And it was an interesting time, sorry to

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Speaker 3: fall into the rabbit hole because at the time I was,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was at Boston University, which is where

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Speaker 3: Bessill Vanderkok was teaching. He wrote The Body Keeps the Score.

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Speaker 3: And yet when my professors heard that I wanted to

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Speaker 3: focus on trauma as my research specialization, they said, you know,

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Speaker 3: everyone knows that the trauma is made up. It's not real.

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Speaker 3: These memories are planted in the minds of patients by

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Speaker 3: the therapist. And yeah, this was like you know, twenty ten.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't like eighteen eighty five. So there's been this

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Speaker 3: huge like resurgence of discussion, as you mentioned a minute ago,

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Speaker 3: on social media and in society about you know, the

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Speaker 3: legitimacy of trauma. But I think we have to be

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Speaker 3: really really careful and make sure that we're actually getting

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Speaker 3: that conversation correct. You know, yeah, And.

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Speaker 2: You really do owe it to I think everyone in

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Speaker 2: society to not to only say things such as what

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Speaker 2: those people were saying, and such as what those professors

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Speaker 2: were saying when you're completely sure. I'm sure it probably

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Speaker 2: came from a lot of Elizabeth Loftus's work as well

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Speaker 2: around like implanted memories and false memories and things like that.

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Speaker 2: But the idea that we actually don't have a good

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Speaker 2: idea and a good description or categorization of trauma is

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Speaker 2: one that I also find really fascinating. It's so interesting

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Speaker 2: when you look at even the DSM, or you look

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Speaker 2: at the diagnoses that psychiatrists can give it, like PTSD

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Speaker 2: or complex PTSD, and that's kind of the two camps,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, but what does that really mean? Because

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Speaker 2: each person is going to need a very i think

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Speaker 2: unique path through that, and I think that it is

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Speaker 2: also this movement towards a more holistic way of seeing

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Speaker 2: each individual psychology and more personal way of seeing each

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Speaker 2: person's psychology, and trauma is part of that. That kind

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Speaker 2: of leads to this question that I have and I'm

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Speaker 2: sure other people have, which is what do you define

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Speaker 2: as trauma? Do you think there is any correct way

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Speaker 2: of labeling a traumatic experience?

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Speaker 3: I do, absolutely, but I want to start actually with

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Speaker 3: the incorrect way, because I think that the field of

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Speaker 3: psychology and psychiatry is actually getting this wrong. The incorrect

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Speaker 3: way is to make a list of events and say

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Speaker 3: these things are traumatic, and that's it. So right now

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Speaker 3: in the DSM, there are three things that are potentially traumatic.

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Speaker 3: There are three potential exposures that you can have to trauma.

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Speaker 3: One is actual or threatened death, the second is serious injury,

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Speaker 3: and the third is sexual violence. That's it. Those are

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Speaker 3: the three things. And I think the reason that that's

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Speaker 3: so problematic is because we miss entire populations of people

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Speaker 3: who are showing up with all of the rest of

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Speaker 3: the symptoms of PTSD and not getting diagnosed correctly because

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Speaker 3: they haven't met the criteria for a traumatic stressor, and

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Speaker 3: I think it also reveals that we need to move

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Speaker 3: away from trying to make a list and look instead

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Speaker 3: at responses. William James, who's sort of the father of

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Speaker 3: modern psychology in many ways, described trauma as a thorn

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Speaker 3: in the spirit. And I love this idea because it's

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Speaker 3: a little bit vague, you know, And I think we

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Speaker 3: can move from that and make it more specific so

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Speaker 3: that we we don't have this completely vague definition, but

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Speaker 3: that we also don't move to this thing where we're like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: these three things are traumatic and anything else is not.

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Speaker 3: So the definition that I use is any experience that

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Speaker 3: meets these two criteria. You have an unbearable emotional experience

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Speaker 3: that's criteria one. That lacks a relational home that's criteria two.

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Speaker 3: And the reason I like this definition, I've adapted this

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Speaker 3: from a clinician, Robert Stilo. But the reason I like

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Speaker 3: it is because unbearable raises the bar pretty high, So

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Speaker 3: you can't say that every single experience that you're having,

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Speaker 3: every minor inconvenience, every time you are upset, you can't

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Speaker 3: necessarily say that all of those things are unbearable. So

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Speaker 3: it makes it so that what counts as trauma is

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Speaker 3: sufficiently high so that we don't just kind of stretch

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Speaker 3: the word to the point of meaninglessness and call everything trauma,

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Speaker 3: which I think we're in danger of. And the second

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Speaker 3: part is that this idea of a relational home helps

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Speaker 3: us understand I think, both what we need when we've

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Speaker 3: been exposed to trauma to make sure it doesn't become

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Speaker 3: lasting trauma, and also what we can give each other.

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Speaker 3: And the idea of a relational home is just that

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Speaker 3: our experiences need a dwelling place, and all of them

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Speaker 3: do good, good experiences, mediocre experiences, all of them need

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Speaker 3: a dwelling place. When they're too overwhelming for us to

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Speaker 3: find a dwelling place within ourselves, we need other people

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Speaker 3: to relate the event to to help us figure out

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Speaker 3: where to put it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, is that kind of like, is that in a

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Speaker 2: sense providing psychological closure?

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Speaker 3: Do you think I can be? Yeah? Were you thinking

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Speaker 3: of a particular example.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well no, So I'm just trying to because when

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Speaker 2: we talk about relational I think I think that's used

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Speaker 2: in a lot of different ways in psychology, and so

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Speaker 2: I think that's so fascinating. That second criteria that you

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Speaker 2: gave is there part of the definition that relates to

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Speaker 2: being able to find an emotional and or some form

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Speaker 2: of closure to the experience that you've been through.

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Speaker 3: For sure. So I think essentially trauma is an injury

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Speaker 3: of memory, and the injury can happen in one of

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Speaker 3: a million ways. But the symptom, the key central symptom

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Speaker 3: that then comes out and other symptoms in your body

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Speaker 3: and we can talk about later, is that the memory

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Speaker 3: isn't integrated correctly. So if you think of your long

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Speaker 3: term memory like a file room, you have all of

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Speaker 3: these memories, and they're organized really well so that you

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Speaker 3: can pull them out, you can talk about them, you

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Speaker 3: can assign significance to them, and you can put them

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Speaker 3: away with relative ease. So if I ask you what

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Speaker 3: was the favorite what was your favorite suite when you

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Speaker 3: were growing up, you could probably think about it for

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Speaker 3: a while, tell me a story about someone who made

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Speaker 3: you that thing or who got that for you, what

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Speaker 3: that was like, and then you can put it away

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Speaker 3: and we can continue our conversation. That's an integrated memory,

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Speaker 3: and so in a sense, it has closure, it has significance,

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Speaker 3: it has meaning. Trauma memories don't close up like that.

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Speaker 3: They're fragmented because we're too overwhelmed in the moment to

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Speaker 3: put them away in the organized fashion that we put

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Speaker 3: away all of our other memories. And so we have

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Speaker 3: this strange file that sort of sticks out and either

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Speaker 3: has the wrong significance, it's disorganized in one way or

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Speaker 3: the other, and so it doesn't have closure. We can't

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Speaker 3: close it and put it away, so it remains present

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Speaker 3: in symptoms, intrusion, all of these things. And I think

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Speaker 3: when we are overwhelmed, we need other people to help

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Speaker 3: us sort those memories and assign significance. So kind of

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Speaker 3: just to work with a silly example. If you have

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Speaker 3: a breakup, let's say your first serious relationship, you think

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Speaker 3: maybe this is someone that you're going to spend the

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Speaker 3: rest of your life with. Maybe you're in your twenties

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Speaker 3: when this happens. It's actually possible. Some people are in

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Speaker 3: your life, are getting married, and then the relationship unexpectedly

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Speaker 3: sort of implodes, and you are left now with this

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Speaker 3: fragmented future. You had this, you were telling yourself this

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Speaker 3: story about what this relationship was going to be in

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Speaker 3: your life, and now you have to shift the meaning,

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Speaker 3: the significance and get closure. Sometimes that's provided in the breakup.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes your friends help you figure out

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Speaker 3: how to get that closure and put that away so

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Speaker 3: that relationship doesn't stay central and present or signify to

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Speaker 3: you that you will should always be alone, or should

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Speaker 3: never date again, or any of these things. Does that

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Speaker 3: make sense?

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Speaker 2: It does make a lot of sense. And I think

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Speaker 2: actually this idea of breakups as being traumatic is something

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Speaker 2: that I say a lot, and I think we used to.

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Speaker 2: I think that we used to use that phrase all

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Speaker 2: the term trauma or traumatic when we were referring to

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Speaker 2: things that I think we can all very easily see

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Speaker 2: and very easily identify as being unbearable. The one I

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Speaker 2: always think about is, you know, people who come back

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Speaker 2: from serious conflict or come back for more on their

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Speaker 2: veterans and they have PTSD, And and now I see

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Speaker 2: it becoming a lot more part of our dialogue in

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Speaker 2: relation to the things that I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: us go through, breakups being one of them. You know

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Speaker 2: that breakup was so traumatic, Oh my god, that guy

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Speaker 2: traumatized me. What do you think Why do you think

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Speaker 2: that has become more common? Do you think that trauma

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Speaker 2: and our interpretation of trauma has changed for this current

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Speaker 2: generation because I don't know. I'm always I'm on the

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Speaker 2: fancier because I've have used the phrase, oh, that was

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Speaker 2: traumatic to explain the end of relationships and your explanation

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Speaker 2: of what that meant, that fragmented memory. It really does

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Speaker 2: kind of, it really does resonate with me. But do

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Speaker 2: you think that the more colloquial use of the term

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Speaker 2: trauma or the term traumatic, our use of it in

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Speaker 2: this current generation. Firstly, where do you think that came from?

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Speaker 2: And do you think that is a good thing for

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Speaker 2: the psychology and the progress around how we intempertualma.

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Speaker 3: It's such a good question, a double part question. I'll

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Speaker 3: answer the first part first of where did it come from?

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Speaker 3: I think we need to think about that because it's

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Speaker 3: very easy to judge it, and I do this. So

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Speaker 3: I just had a book that came out called Unbroken

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Speaker 3: The Trauma Response is Never Wrong, and in it I

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Speaker 3: say that, you know, words really matter, and we need

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Speaker 3: to We don't want to stretch the word trauma to

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Speaker 3: the point of meaninglessness, because then we stop studying it.

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Speaker 3: Then it becomes like the common cold. We won't spend

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Speaker 3: any research dollars. We won't try to heal from it.

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Speaker 3: It'll just be part of human existence. And that's really

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Speaker 3: dangerous because it is in many cases a life or

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Speaker 3: death situation. And so I use in the book some

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Speaker 3: examples that are that are funny, you know, when my

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Speaker 3: students tell me that they're traumatized by a chemistry exam

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Speaker 3: or by the dorm food, or by the like sleeping

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Speaker 3: patterns or whatever, and I'm like, really, is it really traumatic? Like,

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Speaker 3: let's give me the context there. But I think rather

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Speaker 3: than judge it, it's important to look at like this

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Speaker 3: question of why are we reaching for this hyperbolic language

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Speaker 3: to explain relatively mundane experiences that seems like a relevant thing,

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Speaker 3: you know, Like is it that we don't feel legitimate

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Speaker 3: unless we have something that's hyperbolic and huge? Are we

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Speaker 3: trying to express something that's going on sort of in

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Speaker 3: a collective, unconscious way, Like we are living in a

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Speaker 3: really overwhelming time, So are we trying to match that

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Speaker 3: general feeling to our events in our day to day lives.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but I think it has benefits in

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Speaker 3: it has disadvantages. The benefits of more people talking about

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Speaker 3: traumas that more people are talking about trauma, and so

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Speaker 3: that makes it less likely that people will feel really

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Speaker 3: like too stigmatized to get help when they need it.

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Speaker 3: It raises awareness, it normalizes that this is an experience,

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Speaker 3: and again we have to be careful of how we're

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Speaker 3: using it. And I think when it comes to breakups

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Speaker 3: in particular, I think some breakups really are traumatic. The

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Speaker 3: book is organized by each chapter has a case study

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Speaker 3: and then some explanation and then a couple of tools

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Speaker 3: to help the reader heal from whatever they're going through.

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Speaker 3: And one of the chapters is about referred pain. Do

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Speaker 3: you know about this in biology?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually do, but explain it for the audience

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 3: So referred pain is a really strange biological thing, whereby

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Speaker 3: you might have like the classic example is if you

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Speaker 3: have jaw pain and you go to the dentist and

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Speaker 3: you think, oh, maybe I've got a root canal or

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Speaker 3: I have some sort of absess or something going on,

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Speaker 3: and they tell you that you need to go to

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Speaker 3: the emergency room because even though the pain is in

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Speaker 3: your jaw, you're actually having a heart attack. Or you

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Speaker 3: might have pain in your shoulder and it's actually a

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Speaker 3: result of your spleen. So the source of the pain

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Speaker 3: and the pain don't necessarily match up. And so I've

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Speaker 3: seen this with many many clients where they will come

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Speaker 3: in and say, you know, I'm working as a first

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Speaker 3: responder and I love my job, but I'm having nightmares

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Speaker 3: and I think I might need to quit my job.

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Speaker 3: And then we start to dive more deeply into it,

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Speaker 3: and it's not the job that's traumatic. It's the breakup

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Speaker 3: that they just had because they were planning a future

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Speaker 3: with someone who then unexpectedly turned around and waltzed out

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Speaker 3: of their life and sort of smashed their future to bits.

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Speaker 3: And so of course, not all breakups are going to

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Speaker 3: be traumatic necessarily, just like not all war experiences are traumatic.

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Speaker 3: Not everybody that comes back. This is you can see

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Speaker 3: exactly why it's so problematic to define trauma based on

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Speaker 3: the event, because it falls apart immediately. How does it

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Speaker 3: make sense if war is traumatic inherently that some soldiers

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Speaker 3: come back without PTSD, you know. And so I think

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Speaker 3: that we just need more nuance in the conversation. And

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Speaker 3: I know that's a value that you have. So I

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Speaker 3: think that it's that it's really important that we look

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Speaker 3: not at kind of what happened, But what sorts of

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Speaker 3: reverberations the event is causing, What sort of traces did

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Speaker 3: it leave?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I really love that. The idea of referred pain

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Speaker 2: is one that I really do need to speak about more,

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Speaker 2: because I do think, especially in our twenties, right, we

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Speaker 2: all there are so many huge life transitions. We are

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Speaker 2: like experiencing the world as adults for the first time

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Speaker 2: with an air of independence. So I do think that

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Speaker 2: our kind of grasp on things is inherently quite shaky.

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Speaker 2: So things can very easily disturb our sense of control

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Speaker 2: over our situation and disturb how we are consolidating our

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Speaker 2: long term memories and how we are creating the narrative

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Speaker 2: for our life. Do you think that there are some

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Speaker 2: people who are innately more likely to experience trauma or

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Speaker 2: interpret events as traumatic based on certain attributes of theirs,

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Speaker 2: or their temperament or their personality. Yes, please explain were

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Speaker 2: because I'm so fascinated by this. I think about this

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Speaker 2: quite a.

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Speaker 3: Bit, right, And so the first thing I want to

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Speaker 3: say is that I think like the twenties is one

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Speaker 3: of the hardest decades of life, and I think it's

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Speaker 3: no one really, not enough people talk about it that way,

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Speaker 3: because people are like, oh, the world is your oyster,

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Speaker 3: and you have so many opportunities and you don't have

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Speaker 3: to settle down and everything is open to you. But

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Speaker 3: what they're missing when they say those things, which are true,

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Speaker 3: is that it's also terrifying, yeah, and isolating and confusing,

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Speaker 3: and there are missteps and mistakes that feel catastrophic. And

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Speaker 3: so the twenties is a very intense decade. I remember, thankfully,

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Speaker 3: I had a therapist to tell me that when I

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Speaker 3: was in the midst of my twenties, which were extremely turbulent,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, Okay, if I can just get to

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Speaker 3: my thirties, yeah, some of this will calm down, you know,

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Speaker 3: which is true and false of course. But so I

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Speaker 3: think that that decade is an area where there is

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Speaker 3: a lot of possibility for trauma. And I think in

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Speaker 3: some sense, the shortest answer to your question about like

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Speaker 3: who is more likely to experience PTSD or to really

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Speaker 3: struggle with trauma is that we don't know, but we

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Speaker 3: know that some people are more resilient than others. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and it's likely that there are like forty eight layers

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Speaker 3: that contribute to what makes someone resilient and there are

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Speaker 3: researchers who are trying to figure that out, and some

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Speaker 3: of them are pointing to really you know, singular explanations,

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Speaker 3: and they're saying, like, look, some people have more glucocorticoid

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Speaker 3: steroid receptors in their brain, and therefore they're more likely

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Speaker 3: to experience trauma. Some people have less and so they're

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Speaker 3: less likely. And that's of course probably a layer. But

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Speaker 3: I think you have to add to that, what was

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Speaker 3: the you know, what were the developmental years, Like what

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Speaker 3: is the support system, Like do you have rigidity as

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Speaker 3: a personality trait or openness? And to what extent? Like

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Speaker 3: so many of these things kind of her on spectrum.

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Speaker 3: So I think that one of the things that gets

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Speaker 3: in the way of healing is rigidity. But that's again

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Speaker 3: just one layer that I happen to be fascinated with

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Speaker 3: because I don't know that much about gluco corticoid steroid receptors,

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Speaker 3: you know, like there's just.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's not a word I tend to use office.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah. So I think it's going to turn out

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Speaker 3: that as we study resilience and try to figure out

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Speaker 3: what makes more people sort of naturally more resilient, that

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Speaker 3: we will find that there are many, many things that

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Speaker 3: we can do. And that's really quite hopeful because then

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Speaker 3: that also means that we can probably turn up the

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Speaker 3: volume on certain things and certain traits and and help ourselves.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're really selling me on doing like a

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Speaker 2: PhD in this area. Not gonna lie. We should talk

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Speaker 2: about that off screen, off the podcast, because it's like

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Speaker 2: I think, resilience is this really this bit of a

394
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Speaker 2: like a black box, right, And in that is things

395
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Speaker 2: like childhood experiences which are so entirely unique and which

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Speaker 2: we have not properly mapped everyone I speak to. I

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Speaker 2: don't think I have ever spoken to someone in any

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Speaker 2: capacity on this show who has not pointed to childhood

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Speaker 2: as the origin of something that is going on in

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Speaker 2: our lives, something current and in our twenties or even

401
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Speaker 2: in our thirties or beyond, and yet we really don't

402
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Speaker 2: have much of an idea of what it contains. I think,

403
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Speaker 2: much like how you were explaining trauma, we really see

404
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Speaker 2: it as like specific events, so things like abuse or

405
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Speaker 2: things like neglect, or even people who move quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: But there are so many small, very life changing, like

407
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Speaker 2: grains of sand that gets stuck in the clogs that

408
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Speaker 2: we don't explore enough the childhood bullying. Like I could

409
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Speaker 2: go on and on and on, and I think this

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Speaker 2: podcast it provides me with so much anecdotal evidence for

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Speaker 2: the fact that we need to have a more in

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Speaker 2: depth and nuanced discussion because so many people come to

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Speaker 2: me and they say, this thing has happened to me.

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Speaker 2: It is it seems entirely unique. There is really no

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Speaker 2: literature on my specific experience. Can you explain it for me?

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Speaker 2: And then it's really interesting because you might look at

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Speaker 2: that and be like wow, like there is nothing on

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Speaker 2: this that's so unfortunate, But then you'll have someone else's

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Speaker 2: message you the next day with the exact same experience,

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Speaker 2: and yet it's not spoken about.

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Speaker 3: I know. And that points to the idea that we

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Speaker 3: need to be really careful when it comes to the

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Speaker 3: way that we look at psychology as a science. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: because we expect to kind of precision and truth from

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Speaker 3: it that it does not provide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely not. I think that's you can use as

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Speaker 2: many studies and as many statistical significances as you want. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: But I think that is also one of those things

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Speaker 2: where it is this is kind of off topic, but

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Speaker 2: there is this like battle of like, do we make

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Speaker 2: psychology a proper science, which I think it is. Do

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Speaker 2: we add in more of those experimental features to every

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Speaker 2: single thing that we're doing, or do we allow it

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Speaker 2: to maintain to maintain this kind of moldable, flexible, almost

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Speaker 2: like interdisciplinary kind of squishiness to it.

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Speaker 3: No, but it's so fascinating, and it goes back to

437
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 3: the thing of like, so we study adverse childhood experiences

438
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 3: here in the US, I don't know how far that

439
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: has reached internationally.

440
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: Actually, interestingly, we did the first Australian child mal treatment

441
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: study and I was one of the interviewers. So there

442
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: we go.

443
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 3: Amazing. Yeah, okay, so you know all about that.

444
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 2: I know all about the study. It's so good, it's

445
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: so fast. Not good but good for society.

446
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, yeah. But the other thing is that I

447
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 3: can't remember when the original adverse childhood experiences came out

448
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 3: was maybe the nineties. It was Kaiser insurance company in

449
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 3: the US that wanted to look at the the impact

450
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 3: of traumatic experiences on longevity and health because as an

451
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 3: insurance company, they have a stake in this. Right if

452
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 3: you're from an area where you're more likely to have

453
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: advers childhood experiences, should we cover you and insurance wise,

454
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 3: So there's problems in the study designed from the jump.

455
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 3: But then no one looked at positive childhood experiences. No

456
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 3: one even thought to look at that and how they

457
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 3: might counter adverse childhood experiences until like twenty eighteen. Yeah,

458
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 3: so all the way from the nineties or whenever the

459
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 3: first time was that the adverse childhood experiences study came

460
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 3: out until twenty eighteen. I'm probably getting the years wrong,

461
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 3: but it was a long time. No one thought, Hey,

462
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 3: we're talking about grains of sand. You said a second ago,

463
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 3: what about the positive impacts of the people that you

464
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 3: have in your life? What about the teachers that you

465
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 3: have that are so inspiring, what about the friends that

466
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 3: you belong to in the team sports that you play,

467
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 3: and all of this stuff. And so as soon as

468
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 3: they start looking at that, of course, the data completely changes. Yeah,

469
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 3: so there's this idea that, like, again, you know, psychology

470
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 3: is a study based science and studies are only good

471
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 3: as study design.

472
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 2: That is, I literally got shells only a psychology. Now

473
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 2: you can get sheills at that phrase, right, I'm like,

474
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 2: you're so spot on I talk about protective factors on

475
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 2: this show so much, because the whole aim of this,

476
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: of the psychology of your twenties is to be like,

477
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: you have agency. You cannot change what has happened in

478
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: your childhood, as unfortunate as it is. You cannot go

479
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: back and rework the experiences that you had. But each

480
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: of us does have agency, and each of us does

481
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 2: have things in our life, things that happen to us, mentors,

482
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: something in our physical environment, something that inspired us, that

483
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: protects us against some of the negativity around those experiences.

484
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 2: I think it really does kind of go to show

485
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 2: how much I think psychology. It's just so unexplored in

486
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 2: some domains, and there are still so many aspects of

487
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 2: it that are kind of uncharted. It's like deep ocean

488
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 2: diving on the suite.

489
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And the more we learn about the brain

490
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 3: and neuroscy we realize that the brain is malleable, far

491
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 3: more than we thought it was. So even if you

492
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 3: did have advers childhood experiences, it doesn't mean that those

493
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 3: things are hardwired. Yeah, we have far more agency, even

494
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 3: just from a neurobiological perspective, over what we do with

495
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 3: those experiences. And how those turn into behaviors and how

496
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 3: we can intervene on those things. We just we need

497
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 3: to get that information out to everybody because if you

498
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 3: don't know that, then you don't seek the change.

499
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, neuroplasticity is so I think it's something that people

500
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: don't understand. I think we tend to think that our brain,

501
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: we hit twenty five, it's fully developed, we have all

502
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: the neurons that we'll ever have, but there is so

503
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: much like synaptic pruning and rewiring going on. I guess

504
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 2: this kind of brings me to my next question because

505
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: I want to recenter us on this discussion around trauma.

506
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: What is kind of the impact of trauma on the

507
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: mind but also on the body. How does it manifest

508
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 2: in sometimes our biology, but just in our physical responses.

509
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 3: Yes, so it's really important to understand that, like as

510
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 3: we go into this, that we stop separating the mind

511
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 3: from the body, because the two things are in a

512
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 3: dynamic unity and you're they're always along for the ride.

513
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 3: So anything you're talking about that's happening in the mind

514
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 3: is also having some impact on the body. So we

515
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 3: are designed to toggle between stress and relaxation and the

516
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: that's just by nature. We've evolved that way. This is

517
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: one of the reasons why one of my big things

518
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 3: is that the trauma response is actually not a sign

519
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: of weakness or disorder. It's a sign of strength because

520
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: the first responses that then can become over time maladaptive

521
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 3: and turn into symptoms are there to keep you alive.

522
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 3: And so we toggle between high stress and relaxation because

523
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 3: that's an adaptive way to be in the world and

524
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 3: engage with different circumstances and environments that are more or

525
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: less threatening. And so a very silly example is that

526
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: my house is sort of nestled into the woods, and

527
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: so every now and then there's a deer right outside

528
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 3: my bedroom window at three o'clock in the morning, and

529
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 3: a deer right outside your bedroom at three o'clock in

530
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: the morning. Sounds like two fully grown humans standing outside

531
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: your bedroom window at three o'clock morning. Right, We don't

532
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 3: have d here.

533
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: I have no idea.

534
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 3: Exactly which is bigger and louder. And so at three

535
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning, I am at my most relaxed.

536
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 3: My nervous system is toggled al basically all the way down.

537
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: My heart rate is at its lowest breathing rate is

538
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: at its lowest, All of this stuff is at its lowest,

539
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 3: and then I hear a noise and an alarm system

540
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: goes off in my brain and body and reprioritizes all

541
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 3: of the functions in my brain and body to help

542
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: me adapt to that threat. And so I go from

543
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 3: lowest nervous system activation to highest in less than a second.

544
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 3: And you know this because if you've ever been woken

545
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 3: up in the middle of the night, you are sometimes

546
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 3: like across the room before you're fully awake.

547
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, see, it's your sympathetic nervous system, Like

548
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 2: your flat off flat response is so ridiculously.

549
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 3: It's a lot yep. And that is the kind of

550
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 3: the command center of the stress response system. And so

551
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: when that happens in the middle of the night, I

552
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 3: go from relaxed to really stressed to really relaxed within

553
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: a matter of minutes, like I can usually assume as

554
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 3: I realize it's a deer, within ten or fifteen minutes,

555
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: I go back to sleep. And that's how we're designed,

556
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 3: because you couldn't stay in full stress all the time,

557
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: and you wouldn't want to stay in full relaxation all

558
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 3: the time, because then you're not adapting to your environment.

559
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 3: When we get stuck in stress, when fight or flight

560
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 3: gets switched on and stays on, this creates chronic inflammation

561
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: in the body, which leads to all sorts of symptoms

562
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 3: and breakdowns in the systems of the body. That can

563
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 3: result in a set of symptoms that is maddening because

564
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 3: they can look really disconnected and not related to stress

565
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: at all, and often we think that they are disease

566
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 3: independent of stress, and often they are disease that is

567
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 3: related to stress. And so since we're designed to toggle

568
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: back and forth when we get stuck, that that's when

569
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 3: we have problems. And so that is what contributes to

570
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: sort of the impact of trauma on the body, and

571
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 3: that can result in like chronic pain, gastrointestinal issues, sleep disorders, infertility.

572
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 3: Like the list is just massive in the mind. If

573
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 3: we go back to the memory files, now we kind

574
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 3: of have to move away from the deer experience because

575
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: that's pretty easy to integrate what happened, right, I can

576
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: tell the story about it, I can put it away

577
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 3: all that stuff. But when I have something that's significantly overwhelming,

578
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 3: one of the atas that my brain and body move

579
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: into and that overwhelm is that they shut down the

580
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: recording system in the brain, and so that fileroom, like

581
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 3: all the people that work in the fileroom, run out

582
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 3: of the fileroom to go help with the emergency. And

583
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 3: so the result is that you have this unintegrated file,

584
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 3: this file that's missing pieces. It either has holes in

585
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 3: the story, maybe there's no emotional content, or it doesn't

586
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 3: have the right meaning assigned to it. Those are kind

587
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 3: of the three things that all of our memory files need.

588
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 3: And so as an attempt to reorganize the memory, your mind,

589
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: anytime it's in the presence of something that looks familiar

590
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: from that memory will push that memory to the front

591
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: of your mind and say, hey, here's this file again,

592
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: right that color red reminds me of this scary thing

593
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: that we never integrated. Let's integrate it. The problem is

594
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 3: the fight or flight system in your brain and your

595
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: a Migdalan Olympic system recognize that as danger and they're

596
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 3: off to the races again. And so that's why memory

597
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 3: can kind of put you into this chronic fight or flight.

598
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 2: Wow, what that is such a great explanation. I think

599
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: the one thing I really want to point to that

600
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: was when you talked about the color red, like the

601
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: role of triggers as well, And I think that that

602
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 2: is so such an interesting way to put it, is

603
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: that triggers are basically the environment reminding your brain that

604
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: there are things that it has not yet figured out exactly.

605
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we should think of them as like, you know,

606
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 3: like the indicator light in your car. When that goes off,

607
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 3: you don't just get out of the car and leave

608
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 3: your car in the highway, right. Sometimes you might want to,

609
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 3: but you're like, oh, something, something needs to be looked at.

610
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 3: Let's take this to the mechanic and look at it.

611
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: So there's there's so many misconceptions when it comes to triggers,

612
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 3: and that's I think one of the primary dangers of

613
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: when we talk about trauma incorrectly.

614
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's interesting because you say that analogy of like,

615
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: let's take it to the maca and I can get

616
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: it looked at. But sometimes I and please correct me

617
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. You obviously know a lot more than

618
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: me on this topic. But I feel like sometimes with

619
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 2: the coping mechanisms that we use, particularly around suppression, mean

620
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 2: that people really don't want to look into the engine,

621
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 2: because like, is there a part of it that is

622
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 2: so traumatic sometimes that our brain eliminates the memory and

623
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 2: like completely shuts off from connecting with it. I think

624
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: the example I always think of is people who talk

625
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: about suppressed memories, that things traumatic, things that have happened

626
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 2: in childhood they don't remember until they're in their twenties

627
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: or thirties. I know it is quite controversial these days

628
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: that kind of field and that understanding of that, But

629
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: do you think that sometimes our mind does really conceal

630
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: traumatic events from us consciously?

631
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I mean I think so the trauma response is adaptive.

632
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 3: Its main goal, like if it was a video game,

633
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: is to protect you and make it more likely that

634
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 3: you stay alive. And so if it can reduce pain,

635
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 3: if it can reduce exposure to threat, it will do that.

636
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 3: And that feels to us sometimes disorganized, and it feels

637
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 3: like because we've labeled it this way incorrectly, it feels

638
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 3: like a sign of weakness or disorder. But it's so

639
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: critical to understand that biologically it is adaptation. And so

640
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: when you're a kid, especially for I mean maybe not especially,

641
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 3: maybe this is just a more vivid example, but when

642
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 3: you're a child, if you're exposed to something that you

643
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 3: have no language for that is so overwhelming that your

644
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 3: system decides you have to be taken out at that

645
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 3: moment in order to survive, it will do that. And

646
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 3: so this is essentially the freeze response, where you will

647
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 3: dissociate and disconnect from the experience and actually not really

648
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 3: fully experience it. And your brain. I think that our brains,

649
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 3: I think this is miraculous, like I think we've got

650
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 3: and it is so wrong when we label it as disorder,

651
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: because it's a miracle that there's something in your system

652
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 3: that's like, you know what this, We're going to opt

653
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 3: out of this, We're going to push this all the

654
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 3: way down. Because the other thing that happens is that

655
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 3: often you're in a situation where your system decides that

656
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 3: there is no one who can provide a relational home

657
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 3: that for example, if let's say the abuser is a

658
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 3: parent or someone in your family, there is no safe

659
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 3: space to go because to do so would be to

660
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: risk your primary location in the world with your family.

661
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 3: And so and you're like six, so what are you

662
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: going to you know, what are you going to do?

663
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 3: And so I think that our brains do this miraculous

664
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: calculus whereby they decide what we can cope with and

665
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 3: what we can't. And I think it's really important that

666
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 3: we don't disturb that because what comes, what needs to

667
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: come up, will come up, and it will come up

668
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 3: in the format that it has decided that it should

669
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 3: come up in, so you might not remember we have this,

670
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 3: like I think miss missed idea that if there is

671
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 3: a trauma in the past, we have to go diving

672
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 3: for it, you know, and go do a bunch of

673
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 3: ayahuasca and find out exactly what it is and relive

674
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 3: it in all of its you know, awful glory. And

675
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 3: we know that that's not true. We know that if

676
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: you show up in adulthood with a set of behaviors,

677
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 3: it's important that you work with those behaviors so that

678
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 3: you can live a life that is more fulfilling. You

679
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 3: don't always need to go back and uncover the thing

680
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 3: that your brain is trying to hide from you. You know.

681
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 2: I really love that explanation, and I love how you

682
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: put that that we don't need to go diving for

683
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: a traumatic experience. It will come up perhaps even when

684
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: we feel safe as well, when we feel like we're ready. Yeah,

685
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: like we're ready to experience it. That kind of leads

686
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 2: to my next question, which is that how do we

687
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 2: manage our trauma trauma that maybe concealed from us, but

688
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: also trauma that is not concealed from us and very

689
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: present in our lives and really taking up space that

690
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: we wish could be devoted to other things.

691
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, that's the million dollar question. So I think

692
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 3: there's three steps here, and I can unpack each of them.

693
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 3: The first is to notice it, the second is to

694
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 3: validate it, the third is to integrate it. And I

695
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 3: think these are healing from trauma. Actually isn't rocket science.

696
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 3: We've known more or less how to do it since

697
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: about the eighteen hundreds at the absolute or like latest,

698
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 3: like it's possible, we've known that for a lot longer.

699
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 3: That's just when we started writing about it in a

700
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: formal psychological way. We create so much noise and problem

701
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: for ourselves with shame and the way that we talk

702
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 3: about our symptoms. And so going back to the first one,

703
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: notice it, I think that if we could view our

704
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 3: bodies as the barometers that they are, we could realize

705
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: that our bodies and our systems are adaptive, and they

706
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 3: are giving us data all the time. Twenty four to seven.

707
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 3: Your body is giving you important data about what it needs,

708
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: what it's going through, and what needs to happen next.

709
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 3: And so I think just kind of if you imagine

710
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 3: like turning your radio dial to the channel of your

711
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 3: nervous system and finding out like even the most simple

712
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 3: things which we do not typically think about, what do

713
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 3: you feel when you feel relaxed, What do you feel

714
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 3: when you feel energized and excited? What do you feel

715
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 3: when you feel upset? Like in your body? What is

716
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 3: that experience like when you're nervous, Do you get stomach ache?

717
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 3: Do you start sweating? Do you turn red?

718
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: Like?

719
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: Everyone is a little bit different. And it's so important

720
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 3: to kind of tune in and figuring out to figure

721
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 3: out what your body is telling you, because that's the

722
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 3: key to noticing that you have trauma to begin with,

723
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 3: because your body will be setting off an alarm in

724
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 3: a situation when there's no need for an alarm, but

725
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 3: you might have been experiencing that for so long that

726
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 3: you don't even notice that the alarms going.

727
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 2: Off, you know, yeah, absolutely, And so it's the first

728
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 2: one is.

729
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 3: To notice to notice it. The second is to validate it.

730
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 3: So we are very tempted in our society to go

731
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 3: to war with our feelings and to treat our symptoms

732
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 3: as if they are to be managed before we integrate them. Yeah,

733
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 3: and so if something inconvenient is going on in my body,

734
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 3: like I'm just going to shove it all the way

735
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 3: down until it goes away, and that will work for

736
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 3: a certain amount of time and then it will stop

737
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 3: working and everything will unplode. That for sure happened to me.

738
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 3: And so validate what you're feeling instead of going to

739
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 3: war with it, instead of shaming it and saying, oh,

740
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 3: I should be over this by now. Why am I

741
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 3: still feeling this way. I'm an adult, I'm twenty three.

742
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: I shouldn't be the sad over this break, you know,

743
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: whatever it is that you're shaming yourself. And then the

744
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 3: third thing is integrate it, which requires a couple of

745
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: other steps. So what we're working on here is figuring

746
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: out what needs to be integrated, right, how is the

747
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: memory fragmented? What is still sticking out? Do you? What

748
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 3: are some ways that you can ground yourself as you

749
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 3: lean into working with the memory file. So how do

750
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 3: you recalibrate your nervous system essentially, and three is getting

751
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 3: the memory to kind of more or less conform to

752
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 3: the formatting of your other memories so that it's not

753
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 3: continuing to come up in symptoms or behaviors that show

754
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 3: up like in your relationships or at work, or ways

755
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 3: that are getting in the way of your future.

756
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really I'm listening to that, being like, oh,

757
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 2: I'm taking notes. I am taking notes because I do

758
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 2: feel like that integration, that integration point that you've mentioned

759
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 2: is so fascinating. And I was thinking as you were

760
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: saying that, like, what are my memories shaped like? Do

761
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 2: they have a beginning, middle, and end? And is the

762
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: reason why some of those files still sticking out because

763
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: they don't have an end yet and I need to

764
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: write that end for them? And I think that that

765
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 2: is like the idea perhaps of closure of like, Okay,

766
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: why does this memory and why does this event feel

767
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 2: like it is still a part of my life when

768
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: I haven't seen this person in the years, or I

769
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 2: no longer live at this place where this happened, or

770
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 2: I'm no longer an infant, I'm no longer a child,

771
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: I'm a fully formed adult. How come this memory doesn't

772
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 2: have an end? Why do you think we find that

773
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: with certain events or experiences that they continue to kind

774
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: of be part of our storyline even when we don't

775
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 2: want them to be.

776
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's a thousand reasons.

777
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 3: And I'm kind of I'm like laughing because I just

778
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 3: got this. I'm writing a response to someone who just

779
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 3: wrote to me about, you know, a friendship that broke

780
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 3: up fifty years ago, fifty or fifty years ago? Oh

781
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 3: my goodness, still hung up on and I was I

782
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 3: had the exact same response, and I read the email like,

783
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 3: what is that even possible that I.

784
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 2: Don't that's actually scary that I don't want that to

785
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 2: be made that literally exactly. I'm I thinking, because I've

786
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 2: got I've got fifty years left I could Yeah, I've

787
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: still got time. Like what is the things in my

788
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: life right now.

789
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:02,919
Speaker 3: That are going to be.

790
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 2: Fifty years later?

791
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, And I think it's because you know number

792
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 3: one you mentioned a while ago about agency. We don't

793
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 3: think of ourselves as having agency over our stories and

794
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 3: over our psychology. And if we can empower ourselves to

795
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 3: get a little bit more knowledge that that is a

796
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 3: huge step forward to figuring out what we need if

797
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 3: we go back to memory files for a second. So

798
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 3: every memory file needs to have a story like what

799
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 3: happened beginning mill an end, emotional content what is the

800
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 3: feeling of that story? Is it funny? Was it sad?

801
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 3: Was it both? Whatever? And then a set of meaning

802
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 3: tags what is the significance? How does this fit within

803
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 3: your larger story arc? And I think that last piece

804
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 3: is I mean, you can work in a memory in

805
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 3: any of those pieces, but I think the last piece

806
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 3: is one of the places that leaves things open for us.

807
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 3: We assign the wrong significance to something, and so a breakup,

808
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 3: instead of becoming a learning opportunity that was really sad

809
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 3: and tragic but still a learning opportunity, becomes the reason

810
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 3: that you are, you know, disorganized detachment and the reason

811
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 3: you will always be alone. And in some sense, again

812
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 3: going back to the brilliance of the system, the brain

813
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 3: knows that that significance you've assigned is wrong, and so

814
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 3: it's it keeps pushing it forward and saying, you better

815
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 3: look at this again, you better look at this again,

816
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 3: and so again if you go back to noticing, like

817
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 3: what is coming up for yourself, what is repeatedly what

818
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 3: are you repeatedly remembering? And then instead of judging that,

819
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 3: asking like, Okay, what's here? Yeah, Like, so this friendship

820
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 3: came up that like that ended fifty years ago? What's

821
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 3: here for you about that?

822
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? And do you think it's like some so, I

823
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 2: you know, it's hard not to apply these to our

824
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: own experiences, right, Like we're giving me these examples that

825
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about this one particular event in mind. And

826
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: do you think it's because it points to like a

827
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 2: deeper truth that we think we have about ourselves? Like

828
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: do you think that in that instance of that of

829
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 2: that guy, that of that man, that perhaps it's like

830
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 2: it's not about the friendship breakup, it's really that's kind

831
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: of a proxy for something deeper around how he feels

832
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 2: about himself. What do you think that that comes from?

833
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's got to have significance somewhere, right,

834
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 3: So it's got to be that he's got I mean,

835
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: I can guess. I wish I had more more details

836
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 3: because I could get maybe guess more accurately. But I

837
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 3: would imagine that he's got a deep seated fear that

838
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 3: he's worried that he's a bad person, and so a

839
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 3: friend ghosting him without explaining it has left this open

840
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 3: wound of like, if I could just have this one

841
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 3: person's validation, then I would know for sure that I'm

842
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 3: not a bad person, which is of course falls but

843
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 3: like when things kind of gain an outside significance, it's

844
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 3: usually because there's an underlying fear or a story you're

845
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 3: you're telling yourself that you're or a story that's been

846
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 3: told that you're trying to distance yourself from. So maybe

847
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 3: he doesn't think he's a bad person, but someone has

848
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 3: His mom always said that, and she's maybe you know,

849
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,439
Speaker 3: and so he's he's worried that that that that validates that.

850
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 3: There could be a thousand things, but I think usually

851
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 3: when something is open like that, that there is some

852
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 3: something Like I sometimes ask clients like, what's the fear

853
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 3: beneath the fear? Yeah, so so don't tell me rejection?

854
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 3: What happens if you get rejected? What does that reveal?

855
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 3: And usually it's something really primary, like oh my, you

856
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 3: know that I'm that I am evil, or that my

857
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 3: mother was right that I didn't deserve to live, you know,

858
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 3: like some horrible thing that hasn't been processed from forever ago.

859
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: Wow. And I guess bringing it back to that that

860
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: breakup example that we were using at Psychologistic, not only

861
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: has this distorted this idea of my future, but then additionally,

862
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 2: maybe it's pointed to the fact that you do think

863
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 2: you're unlovable because that's how your parents treated you, or

864
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: that because you did experience childhood bullying where you never

865
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 2: felt like you were quite ready to be accepted by

866
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 2: anyone else. So I just think that's so fascinating and

867
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 2: once again points to that holistic perspective that sometimes we

868
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: need to take when it comes to trauma, that you

869
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 2: cannot apply a one size fits all methodology or explanation

870
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: to everyone's individual circumstances. I think that everyone is incredibly

871
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,760
Speaker 2: different and has a different narrative. As you were saying,

872
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 2: this whole idea of a storyline, I've got one. I've

873
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: got one last question for you, Okay, And this is

874
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: a question that I get all the time, and I

875
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,879
Speaker 2: always I answer in a certain way, but I would

876
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,879
Speaker 2: love to see how you answer. As someone who knows

877
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 2: more than me, I feel like that is obviously very true.

878
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 2: So the question is, does trauma ever go away? Can

879
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 2: I ever live a life without trauma? So I am

880
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 2: always like, yeah, I think, sir, But what do you think?

881
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 3: It depends on what go away means? You know, like

882
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 3: I think, sometimes the question gets framed up can you heal?

883
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 3: Is healing from trauma possible? The answer to that is absolutely, yeah.

884
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 3: Is erasing trauma possible if that's the frame you have

885
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 3: on it, No, that's not possible, but it can be managed.

886
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 3: And the way that we can explain this is by

887
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 3: going back to those memory files. Like if I open

888
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 3: the file cabinet and I take out the file of

889
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 3: the morning that my father died, and I start talking

890
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 3: about it, I'm going to feel sad because it was

891
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 3: a sad day. That memory file has sad as the

892
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 3: emotional content. Right. That doesn't mean I haven't healed. That

893
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that the trauma is still present, that it's

894
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 3: getting in the way of my life. If I go

895
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 3: to tell you the story and this happened a long

896
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 3: time ago. If I go to tell you the story

897
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 3: and I cry for three days and can't go to work,

898
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 3: that's a sign that the emotional content is outsized and

899
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 3: still needs integrating. Or if I tell you the story

900
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 3: and there's no emotional content. That's also a sign of

901
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:13,240
Speaker 3: an issue. But our memory files are supposed to have feeling.

902
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 3: That's how our brains are built. And so if the

903
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 3: question is will I ever stop feeling, the answer is no.

904
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 3: But the feelings change in in the way that they

905
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 3: are expressed hugely when you integrate the memories. And I

906
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 3: hope that that's hopeful, because it is.

907
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 2: It's so helpful. I think the thing I always think

908
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 2: about is around integration, like you will get better at

909
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 2: making this event will no longer define you. And I

910
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,439
Speaker 2: think that in a lot of the things that happen

911
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: to us, especially in our twenties, right there isn't we

912
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 2: haven't had the diversity of experiences to see in hindsight

913
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 2: that you have a lot of years ahead of us.

914
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 2: But you've only really had like max like twenty nine

915
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 2: years of your on your late twenties, and even by then,

916
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 2: I feel like you're kind of encroaching on the thirty space.

917
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 2: But particularly people in their early twenties, right like five

918
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 2: years ago, you were still a child. You have no

919
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 2: hindsight of what five years means. You have no hindsight

920
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 2: around the other things that are going to take precedence

921
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: over the over the bad times and over the hard memories.

922
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: Like I think that's something that I really had to realize,

923
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 2: you know. My Yeah, I'm not gonna get into that.

924
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna trauma dump on this call,

925
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 2: but yeah, I just think about this one experience that

926
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: I had, and for a couple of years it felt

927
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: like that memory was like the core of my identity

928
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 2: and that like everything could be looped back around how

929
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 2: hard that was. And then suddenly, like not suddenly there

930
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 2: was also work, but different things began to crop up

931
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 2: that were really joyful and that I wanted to find

932
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 2: place for. And I kind of had to rearrange the

933
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: luggage in my brain. I had to like rearrange my

934
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 2: storage space and push that memory to the side a

935
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 2: little bit. It could no longer have like a whole

936
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 2: massive platform in the middle. And perhaps that's how I

937
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 2: that's how I see integration of is that you know

938
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 2: that piece of luggage is still there, but it's not

939
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: like your primary piece of luggage, or it's like I

940
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 2: always think about it as well in terms of like

941
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 2: you know, when you buy like a new T shirt

942
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 2: and you like wear that T shirt for like ages

943
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 2: and ages and ages, but suddenly it's going to be

944
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: replaced by your new favorite item of clothing. And it's

945
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: not that that item is still not important and still

946
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 2: didn't have a part of your life, isn't in your photos, but.

947
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 3: The thing and nobody can ever take away the significance

948
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 3: that it had. Yeah, that's critical. Like you might not

949
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 3: wear it anymore, it might just be a memory, but

950
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 3: like that was, for that period of time, your favorite thing. Yeah,

951
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 3: you know. And I think like sometimes we resist progress

952
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 3: and healing because we think we can lose what we've

953
00:51:58,280 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 3: already lost, but you can't.

954
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a beautiful way to put it. Well,

955
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 2: I want to say thank you so much. Is there

956
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 2: anything else that you want to say around trauma? A misconception?

957
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 2: Something you think we need to know that perhaps we

958
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 2: haven't spoken about yet.

959
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 3: I think I want a listener to know if you're

960
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 3: struggling with trauma and the after effects, the traces the

961
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 3: trauma has left, that it won't always feel like this,

962
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 3: that you are not alone, even if trauma has tricked

963
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 3: you into thinking you are, and that healing is possible.

964
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 3: There's so much more life to live.

965
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a beautiful way to put it. Thank

966
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 2: you so much for coming on. This is perhaps one

967
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 2: of my favorite conversations.

968
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 3: I also feel it flattering.

969
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 2: No, it was really, it was really amazing. Sometimes I

970
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 2: honestly was in this call being like, oh my god,

971
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 2: I didn't even have to pay for therapy this week.

972
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: Cancel that appointment done, like it was. Actually, I learned

973
00:52:58,560 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: so so much.

974
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm so bad.

975
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Also, I really want to plug your book

976
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 2: because this was only like a forty five minute conversation

977
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 2: and there is so much more as anyone can imagine

978
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 2: to this topic and to this conversation. So where can

979
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 2: they find you? Where can they hear more from you?

980
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 3: So the book is called Unbroken The Trauma Response is

981
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 3: Never Wrong. It's available on Amazon and anywhere you give books.

982
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 3: We're working on getting it into many different countries, so

983
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 3: it's being translated in a couple different languages. You can

984
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 3: find me on TikTok and Instagram. It's the same handle.

985
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 3: It's just mc PhD and I'm always talking about trauma

986
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 3: and trying to demystify the symptoms and help people heal.

987
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 2: There we go something that I think we all need.

988
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 2: Make sure you add that to your feed. A bit

989
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 2: of a doctor SEUs rhyme there, but I do think

990
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 2: that it's something that we need to speak about more concisely,

991
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 2: I think, and integrate more into our conversations around what

992
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: really is trauma, what does it mean, and how can

993
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 2: we move forward around that, especially in our twenties. So

994
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: I want to say huge thank you for coming on

995
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 2: board just to share your wisdom.

996
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.

997
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: Yes, please come back. We will do a part two

998
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: for sure and yeah done. And as always, thank you

999
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 2: so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this

1000
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: podcast and feel cool to do so, please feel free

1001
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

1002
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 2: wherever you're listening right now. Really helps the show to

1003
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 2: grow and reach new people. Also makes my day and

1004
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 2: I would really appreciate it. If you have an episode

1005
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 2: suggestion or just want to be part of the community,

1006
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 2: please follow along at that Psychology podcast on Instagram. You

1007
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 2: will be the first to know about new episodes, new

1008
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 2: guests like the amazing MC, and all that is going

1009
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 2: on behind the scenes. So thank you so much. For

1010
00:54:53,880 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: listening and we will see you next week. One