WEBVTT - Why PFAS Legal Risks Persist for 3M, Peers 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.239 Welcome to the Votes and Verdicts podcasts hosted by Bloomberg Intelligence, 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.759 the investment research arm of Bloomberg LP. In this podcast series, 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.520 we talk about the intersection of business policy and law. 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.760 My name is Holly from I'm an analyst with Bloomberg 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:31.440 Intelligence covering consumer and industrials litigation. Today's podcast we'll focus 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.760 on regulatory and other issues related to p fast chemicals 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.000 or what are also called forever chemicals. I'm delighted to 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.600 be joined today by Scott Wilson, President and CEO of regenafis, 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.800 a global leader in environmental technology. Scott has devoted a 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.320 significant amount of time to p fast for mediation. So Scott, 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:51.400 thank you for joining us. Can you tell us a 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.040 little bit about your background and what ReGenesis does. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:59.200 Yeah, well, thanks thanks for having me, Hollie. I appreciate it. Yeah. 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.480 Just by way of background, I've been in the environmental 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:07.440 remediation industry since really the birth of the industry itself 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.280 back in the eighties. I have an undergraduate degree in 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.760 biology and a master's degree in applied microbiology as it 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.640 relates to chemical as it relates to patrolling engineering in 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:23.559 geochemistry type of things. We were injecting bacteria into oil 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.480 reservoirs and trying to clean up certain fractions of oil 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.520 with bacteria back in the day. And I then moved 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:33.200 into the environmental industry and was with one of the 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.680 first groundwater treatment firms, in fact, the first public company 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:41.600 treating groundwater that was groundwater technology back in the day. 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.040 And then then I went back to school and got 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:49.280 an NBA from Kellogg and then have been with ReGenesis 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.680 for now twenty five years or so. So that's a 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:54.520 bit of my background. 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:56.360 And what does re Genesis do. 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:00.600 Yeah, so we are a company that's dead ded catered 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:06.320 to developing sort of the leading edge environmental technologies to 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:12.320 restore groundwater and soil that's been contaminated. Uh. And so 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.680 what we do is we develop chemical and biological type 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:19.799 technologies that are used by engineering firms all around the 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:26.160 world to restore polluted land and contaminate the land. So 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.920 we have we have a pretty broad understanding of the 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:34.200 global problems that are that are confronting us with the 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:38.040 use of different chemicals in our everyday lives that get 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.960 into the media that we breathe and that we that 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:45.600 we you know, eat and drink, and that sort of thing. So, yeah, 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:47.320 so that's what we do, got it? 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.959 And I understand that a significant amount of your intention 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.560 has been devoted to p FAST. For those who don't know, 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.240 can you explain what p fats are and why they 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:56.720 are a contenant of concern? 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:03.440 Yeah, So p FAT stands for poly or perfluorinated alcohol substances, 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.919 And really what that means is that it's a nomenclature 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:12.320 for a broad range of chemicals that are all related. 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:18.040 Uh and and they're chains of carbon atoms ranging from 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.000 a couple carbons long to eight or nine carbons long. 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.280 And these these molecules have one if you consider a 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:30.040 chain of carbon on one end, there's a what's known 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.679 as a water loving group or a hydrophilic group that 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:37.080 tends to pull the molecule into water. The other end, 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.120 I should say that the rest of the chain has 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.960 fluorine atoms all over it, and and that that that 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.000 end of the molecule really doesn't like water at all, 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.119 so it tends to stay more on the surface of 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:56.760 of of materials and or into into oil or for fats. So, 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.280 so what you have is that these molecules, there's' be 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:05.240 like five thousand different variations of these. But but they 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.640 have really unique characteristics, much like soaps, if you want 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.440 to look at it that way. They will tend to 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.800 move in water somewhat depending on the length of the molecule. 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.719 The more the more long, the longer the chain of carbons, 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.440 the more it does not want to be in the water. 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:28.080 But but what happens is that is that these molecules 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:30.640 will tend to aggregate the surface of water and air 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:36.080 and they make bubbles. Uh And and as a result, 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:41.080 they've been used in products such as aqueous film forming foams, 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:45.640 which are firefighting foams. So you see, uh, you know, 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.799 on on airports and so forth, you see these foam 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.520 that they spray down on the on the runway. That's 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:55.600 often what's known as a triple F or firefighting foam 0:04:55.680 --> 0:05:01.640 that's made with p fast molecules. And and it turns 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:03.800 out that that the way, the way this whole thing 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.520 started was when when these were invented, they realized that 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.520 it changed the surface of materials that were sprayed with 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.440 these compounds. For instance, you could you could spray, you know, 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:16.960 put it on a frying pan and it would make 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.200 it nonstick. You could put it into clothes and and 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.160 and water wouldn't penetrate it, but but air could breathe 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.560 through it. So we these molecules have found there their 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.560 their way into all sorts of products in our daily lives. 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:35.400 The non stick little cupcake holders often had pea fastened, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:39.600 and the little the little paper paper doily things put 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.280 around cupcakes, for instance. So I mean there is in 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:46.560 all sorts of materials, but probably the most insidious area 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:50.240 that we see it is in the firefighting foams. And 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:54.240 the reason for that is the firefighting foams were formulated 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.640 with the longer chain pa fasts, the eight or the 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:03.760 eight carbon long type molecules, and those tend to not 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:08.560 want to be in well. They tend to want to 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:13.159 accumulate in oil and in fat molecules. So if you 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.920 drink those like let's say that some of that firefighting 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.520 foam gets into groundwater and then it gets into well 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:22.880 and you recover that for drinking. Even a very small 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.479 amount of that going into your body over time will 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:30.159 be detrimental simply because it's building up in your body. 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:34.640 It's what's known as bioaccumulation. The long chain, the long 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.320 carbon chain surrounded with fluorine tends to accumulate in the 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.960 fat cells of the fat and the cells in your body, 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:43.760 and it doesn't go out with your urine, So your 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.479 body accumulates it over time, and when we get larger, 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:52.080 when we get these higher concentrations, as it builds up, 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:56.880 it starts to have toxic and carcinogenic effects. So that's 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:58.760 sort of a little bit of background on the types 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:03.680 of molecules, where they're used, and the impact to human 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.080 health and the environment. What happens the humans also happens 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:13.440 to all sorts of life in streams and surface water bodies, 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:14.400 et cetera. 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:15.960 You got it. 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.440 And so what types of p fast impacted sites exist 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:21.000 out there? 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.600 Good question. So let's if you if you look at 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:30.760 at at sites that are impacted with p fasts, probably 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:34.840 the most clear and present danger is the drinking water sites. Right, 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.040 So they they that's on one end of the problem. 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.120 That's where it's being recovered and and we're you know, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:46.240 we're put potentially drinking it. So there's water drinking water sites. 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:48.920 But if you look at if you look at where 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:52.120 that p fass came from, it's impacting that drinking water site. 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.000 It came from upgradients someplace, and that would be let's 0:07:56.040 --> 0:08:00.480 say an airport or a military base, an industrial facility, 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.000 maybe a landfill. And what happens is, let's let's for 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.960 an example, let's look at an airport, the fire training 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.760 area where they were spraying these foams regularly to train. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.240 That's filled with some peafast and the soil there well. 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.520 Then rain comes and drives it down into the subsurface 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.720 soil down to a point where it impacts the groundwater table, 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.920 which is a point in the subsurface where the soil 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:29.240 is filled with water. It's saturated. Once it's down there, 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.960 then it tends to move off site and down down 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:34.840 gradient if you want to look at that weight. So 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.080 those are what I call the source sites. Those source 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.640 sites are the sites that need remediation. Certainly on the 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.160 very downgradient where we're recovering it for drinking water, we'll 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.199 have to treat that for drinking but also the sites 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.160 that are causing the problem are the source sites. And 0:08:53.240 --> 0:09:01.000 to answer your question, Holly, those include airportsli terry bases, 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:06.920 and industrial facilities. And those industrial facilities could range from 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.200 manufacturing facilities for textiles that were coating with p facts 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:17.960 to making dishware that was coated with teflon type substances, 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:25.400 to landfills, to a whole range of different industries that 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:30.120 have used this material in the past. Does that answer 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:30.679 the question? 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.320 Got it? Yep? And then with respect to those those 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.600 types of sites, which ones have new remediated? What types 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:38.720 of states have you remediated? 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.400 Yeah? Well, so, to be honest with you, there isn't 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.600 a whole lot of remediation going on yet. Most most 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:47.560 of all the sites out there have just been in 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:49.319 a study mode where they're trying to figure out what 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.960 the extent of contamination is and where the where the 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.360 groundwater beneath the site and moving off the site is 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.600 actually impacted with pfasts. So that's what most of the 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.079 work it has been done so far. However, there are 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:06.080 some sites that have been remediated. We have we have 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:11.240 actually treated about forty project sites or between forty and 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:15.559 fifty project sites to date, and they've included everything from 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:21.319 a small furniture manufacturing facility that was using p fas, 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:28.320 to a major refinery that was having p fasts leave 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:32.640 its facility into a river, to a superfund sites which 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.880 was an old landfill that that was trying to go 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.199 through a hazardous Waste Closure Action and they realized p 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.080 FASc was on the site and so that us EPA 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.880 has utilized our technology to restore that site as well. 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.079 So a broad range of facilities. 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.160 So when you say super fun, say, can you explain 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:52.600 what that is? 0:10:53.440 --> 0:11:00.560 Ah? Yeah, So super fun means that it was a 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.880 super fund is A is a nickname an acronym force 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:09.440 for the CIRCLA UH a Circle of law UH and 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.720 and UH. What what that does is is basically, the 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:16.320 U s c p A has money available if a 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:21.800 site is abandoned and and there's no responsible party stepping forward, 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.120 they will actually utilize that money UH to to implement 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:31.000 a remediation and clean up themselves. There's also UH sites 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.920 that are named as a super Fund Project site by 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:38.000 the U s c p A, whereby responsible parties will 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.240 get together and they'll do the clean up themselves under 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.320 the auspice or under the direction of the U s 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.080 c p A, and they can be named as a 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.600 super Fun site as well. Got it. 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.439 P past hasn't been just need hazards planners since so 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.559 if if if a substance that does any hazardous then 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:57.880 under CIRCLA e p A can comment and try to 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.839 try to force responsible parties to clean it up. But 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.040 these substances have not yet been designated and hazardous, So 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:08.480 why would they. 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.320 Be remediating those or why would they even how would 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.959 they even know that they need to be remediated to 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.199 currently existing super fund sites. 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:24.400 Yeah, well, uh so, just just to be clear here, 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.760 when we say CIRCLA, we mean the Comprehensive Environmental Response, 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.240 Compensation and Liability Act. It was think there was, Yeah, 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.319 that was put in and that was an acted in 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:38.800 nineteen eighty and and and so under that under that act, 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.160 they're under that act, the e p A has the 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:50.000 right to designate certain compounds as hazardous substances. And when 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:54.400 a substance named as a hazardous substance under CIRCLA, it 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:59.640 means that that there has to that anyone having spilled 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:04.600 that material has to under the National Contingency Plan, has 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.959 to alert the U s c p A, and then 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:11.200 has to to implement a cleanup. So that's that's really 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.040 what that means. At at this point in time, the 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.200 U s c p A has come forward and said, hey, 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:23.199 we we put forward a roadmap on p fas Administer 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:27.679 Reagan put together a roadmap that that that says that 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:32.880 we will in fact designate this as a a hazardous 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.280 substance under circlet. But it has not yet been done. 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.920 That has not been that has not happened, and and 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.480 the thought is it will happen early next year. However, 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:48.800 states themselves have taken this, have taken the action to 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:54.959 implement regulations and put in clean up levels for for 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.880 for p fas, particularly p f O S and p 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:05.000 fo A, which are two specific molecules within the PFAS family. 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:11.760 So states have implemented clean up levels. However, federal facilities 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:16.320 like military bases, FAA controlled airports, and so forth, are 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.960 not obligated to clean up to those state levels, and 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.760 they're waiting for federal guidance. So once the federal government 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.000 that is, the e p A, implements this rule making 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.200 and says, hey, we're going to make p facs a 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:34.320 hazardous substance, these military bases in the FAA will have 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:34.880 to comply. 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.080 Got it. So it sounds like some are starting to already. 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.080 Yes, I think there are people that are starting to 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.920 get ahead of it. You know, most of the work 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.320 that we have done the forty starts, we've cleaned up. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:51.640 There have been a couple that are that are federal. However, 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.680 mostly at state level, the federal is still waiting for 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.840 for the the other shoe to drop on the on 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.800 the substance designation hazard substance. Got it. 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:06.200 We've talked about, you know, other sites besides water authorities 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:11.520 that may require remediation. Three and one of one of 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:17.560 the manufacturers of PFASs reported at tentative, well, they just 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:24.760 submitted a proposal to resolve through a class action water 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:30.000 authority cases for lawsuits for remediation, reportedly for ten to 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:34.520 twelve point five billion dollars, and that would resolve p 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.960 FAST claims related to costs to drink drinking water to 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.280 treat drinking water. Do you have any idea of how 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.680 many of the other sites, the non water authority sites 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:45.080 you described exist. 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:52.520 Yes, so again, other than that the drinking water sites 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:58.520 that are impacted A good, a really good basis for 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:03.040 this was a paper that was published by Derek Salvatory 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.520 and a group at Northeastern University, and a few others 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.400 were involved too. There was something like ten authors on 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:14.000 this paper, so it's pretty comprehensive. It was published in 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:19.920 the American Chemical Society Journal Environmental Science and Technology Letters, 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.200 and it was published last year, late last year. And 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.240 what they did is they put together a probabilistic model 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:36.760 and tried to statistically estimate how many project sites or 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.800 how many sites out there in the US are impacted 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:44.320 by pfasts or contaminated by PFAST and they came up 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:51.800 with about five hundred and nineteen airports, thirty five hundred 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:59.120 military bases, and some forty nine thousand industrial facilities. And 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:04.320 those industrial facilities would include landfills, refineries, and manufacturing, et cetera. 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.680 So it's a huge number. And in terms of liability, 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.199 I mean, I can tell you, you know, a remediation, 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.520 a remediation of the refinery site that I mentioned that 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:24.240 we had completed. A large engineering firm, multinational engineering firm 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.760 undertook that cleanup and they compared our technology to the 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.600 typical technology of pumping the water from the ground and 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.040 treating it and they said, just you know, just the 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:39.639 installation alone would have been twenty some million dollars just 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:45.560 for the installation of the pumping system implementing our technology. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:47.800 They were able to do that for about three point 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:53.880 five million. So there's a huge looming latent liability out 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:58.400 there to clean these sites up, and the typical way 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.880 to do that is to try to recover the water 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.240 from the subsurface and put it through different techniques to 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.320 concentrate it, whether you're bubbling it and skimming off the 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:10.480 bubbles or whether you're putting it on ato activity carbon. 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.480 Those pumping systems are trying to flush the pfast out 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.520 of the subsurface. And flushing it out of the subsurface 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:26.840 is what's been coined by a leading researcher remediation of perpetuity. 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:31.359 Trying to wash pfasts out of the subsurface aquaf for 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:36.240 by pumping the water out will take more than my lifetime, 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.439 your lifetime, your children's lifetime. It's going to take one 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.320 hundred plus years of pumping. So it's at a huge 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:47.560 cost on an annual basis. So it's really a looming 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:48.760 huge liability. 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.000 So there's pumping and treating and then what you do, 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:53.960 which I'll ask you to explain in a minute. And 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:59.560 then with respect to water authorities, what are the methods 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.520 there using to address p fasts in the drinking water. 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:07.240 Okay, so again looking at the sites, now we're downgradient, 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.679 we're down where the drinking water is being impacted. Right 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.720 where drinking water is being impacted, what they will most 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.159 likely do is is the water they pulled out of 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:20.720 the ground, they have to treat that to some extent anyway, 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.800 So it's already in a pipe, so what they'll what 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.000 they'll do is they will put that through probably what's 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.720 known as ion exchange resins. Much like a water software 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:35.800 takes takes takes minerals out, there are certain ion exchange 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.200 resins that that will pull p fasts out and then 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.200 they can regenerate those or dispose of them, or they'll 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:46.080 put it through activated carbon which is like charcoal, huge 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.560 charcoal filters that they'll put the water through and it'll 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.200 strip the p fass out onto the carbon. So that's 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.280 the types of technologies that they will implement at the 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:56.879 water at the water authorities. 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:02.560 Yes, and so with respect to the other sites that 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.560 we talked about in the technology that you've implemented that 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.920 you'll explain in a minute, why would those other sites 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.320 have to be remediated if they're already treating the water, 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:15.760 if they intend to treat the water at the water 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:16.639 authority anyway. 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:22.760 Right, Well, you have to remember that the p fast 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:28.280 moving in the subsurface in groundwater, is it spreads, you're 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.480 impacting a wider and wider and wider amount of the 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:35.480 water resource. We have not all of groundwater's impact factory, 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.480 very small amounts impacted at this point, and so the 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.760 intent is to the intent of designating this as a 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.680 hazardous substances to make it so that people have to 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.280 clean it up. What last thing we want is the 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.720 water resources, the groundwater to be impacted throughout the US 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:54.479 so that it always has to be treated with these 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.879 expensive methodologies. The other thing you have to remember is 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:03.560 that groundwater impact surface water, So all the streams, all 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:08.040 the lakes, they are all in communication with groundwater. And 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.680 when PFAST is in the groundwater leaking from a military 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.639 base or an airport or an industrial facility into the groundwater, 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.800 it's migrating under people's homes, through past their domestic wells, 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.560 and then into streams where it makes foam and it 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.800 impacts the fish, the wildlife. It's toxic and impacts them 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:35.000 as well. So it's insidious and it has a large 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:41.920 natural resource damages liability with it. With the impacting of 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:46.199 groundwater with PFAST, not to mention third party liability from 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.240 people that are swimming in lakes and streams that are 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:52.800 being impacted by pfast generated from a nearby airport or 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:57.159 military base. So it's not just drinking water, it's the 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.880 natural resource itself that's being impacted. 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:01.840 So we've heard that in a number of companies. I've 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:06.800 entered into deals to resolve water authority lawsuits, So lawsuits 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:09.879 over the drinking water. What are and you touched upon this, 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:14.280 but what are the remaining risks for What other risks 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:18.360 are out there for those companies, Well, all. 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:22.719 Of the remediation risk. When I say remediation, I mean 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:27.040 cleaning up the sites that caused the problem. So you 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:29.720 know that is a huge looming liability. As I said, 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.280 you know forty nine thousand industrial facilities out there that 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:40.720 if this probabilistic models correct, a large portion of those 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.600 are going to have to implement a remediation of groundwater 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:46.639 and soil. They're going to have to treat the source 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.240 of the contamination on their site, and if it's going 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:51.720 off site, they're probably going to have to treat the 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:55.760 groundwater that's migrated off site. And that's you know, as 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:58.480 the example I gave you the twenty million dollars for 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:01.520 the refinery. That's the cost of putting in a pumping 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:06.200 system if you know, somewhere are going to be somewhere 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:10.840 between three million and twenty million dollars just for the installation, 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:14.840 So it could be at it's a huge liability. 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:19.520 Yeah, And that's just you know, just just assuming that 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:25.280 their you know, causation could be proven and like you know, 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:30.480 the p FEST could be tied to those companies. So 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:34.640 with respect to and so we talked. I think he said, 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:37.480 you were talking about a refinery where the installation of 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:39.920 the pumping and treating method could just could cost three 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:44.080 to twenty million dollars. Is that true? Like at any 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:47.240 p FAS site, like for example, another a triple le 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:49.240 F site, because I'm trying to get an idea of 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.960 and that's the firefighting home sites. I'm trying to get 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:55.760 an idea of how much remediation and a single a 0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:57.480 triple left site could cost. 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:03.080 Well, again, and it depends on the technology used. There 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:05.440 will be the sorce area. We'll have to stabilize the 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:08.920 soils or aul the soils off to be disposed of. 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:14.080 So worst case, worst case, it would be you know, 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:17.560 in the in the tens of millions of dollars for 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:22.679 soil treatment, uh and then and then tens of million 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:27.000 dollars of dollars to install a pumping system and then 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:29.800 to operate it a million, you know, eight hundred thousand 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:33.320 dollars a year to operate something like that. I mean 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:35.800 that's eight hundred to a million dollars operated per year. 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.119 So that's a you know, that's sort of the worst 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:44.119 case with our technology that we've developed. 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:47.200 We've been is that what is that technology called? 0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:51.440 Yeah, so, so the technology that we've developed is and 0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:54.160 let me just finish my thought. Instead of a twenty 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:56.760 million dollar install on eight hundred thousand dollars a year 0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:00.399 or so, there's a military base where we just did 0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:05.920 a cost comparison. You know, we were able to do 0:25:06.040 --> 0:25:10.479 an installation for under four million dollars with no operation 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:14.399 costs at all. So we can lower the liability for 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:21.840 these sites by you know, by by a factor of three, 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:25.200 so three five to three. So so we've taken a 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:28.359 twenty million dollar installed down a three million with no 0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:31.680 operation of maintenance. So over time that could be one 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:34.680 tenth the cost of a typical pumping system. So what 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:37.440 we've done is instead of taking the water out of 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:41.640 the ground and putting it through filtration apparatus to try 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:44.960 to filter it out, which is which is the traditional 0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:47.920 way to treat things, and then having to dispose of 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:50.440 that material once you've once you've pulled it out of 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:54.600 the ground, which is a whole nother liability. You know, 0:25:54.640 --> 0:25:57.520 if you filter these chemicals out and put it onto 0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:00.280 carbon or onto iron exchange resident and then dispose of that, 0:26:01.240 --> 0:26:04.520 now you own part of the landfill under CIRCLA. Because 0:26:04.600 --> 0:26:07.399