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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Better Offline and we are live

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Speaker 2: from beautiful New York City, Nevada. I am edzit Tron,

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Speaker 2: I am your host, and I'm joined by Thomas Jermaine

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Speaker 2: of the BBC Today it's Better Off Life.

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Speaker 3: Welcome Thomas. Glad to be here. So it's been a

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Speaker 3: very funny few weeks.

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Speaker 2: The Google is a monopoly, and of course you'll the

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Speaker 2: next episode will be about that monopoly money stuff. And

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Speaker 2: it feels like something is breaking in tech, not necessarily

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Speaker 2: in a bad way.

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Speaker 3: In that we're finally moving.

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Speaker 2: It looks like the government is saying it's time to

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Speaker 2: not have five companies that do everything in tech.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we're clearly at some kind of turning point, right.

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Speaker 4: I think you know, if we'd been talking about this

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Speaker 4: five years ago, I never would have predicted that we

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Speaker 4: would seen any meaningful antitrust action against any of these companies.

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Speaker 4: Now it's all of them, and it seems like we're

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Speaker 4: actually trending in the direction of doing something about it.

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Speaker 3: And I'll even take that a step further.

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Speaker 2: Two weeks ago, I would have probably said I don't

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Speaker 2: think Google loses the anti trust case.

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Speaker 3: I think that they're gonna win. I don't think the epic.

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Speaker 2: The federal judge on the epic case, did you hm,

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Speaker 2: So with that one for the listeners, we'll have the

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Speaker 2: links in there about this. The federal judge, during the

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Speaker 2: remedy stage of Epic suing Google over their monopoly over

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Speaker 2: the Playstore, has been very clear that he does not

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Speaker 2: intend to let them let Google off easily, and has

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Speaker 2: said because Google has estimated six hundred million dollars of

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Speaker 2: costs to fix the play store, and it's kind of multifested.

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Speaker 3: And the judge basically said, when Google said, this is.

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Speaker 2: Going to be really difficult, not my problem, which is

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Speaker 2: one of the funniest ways of putting it.

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Speaker 3: But okay, he didn't say it literally.

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Speaker 2: He said, I'm paraphrasing, Hey, if you didn't want your

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Speaker 2: monopoly broken up, maybe you shouldn't have built it in

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Speaker 2: the first place. And it's it's awesome, and I know

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Speaker 2: I can delight in this. Perhaps you come like we

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Speaker 2: all know our oppositions here, but I think that there

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Speaker 2: is something kind of magical happening because this is a

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Speaker 2: good thing.

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Speaker 3: Competition is good.

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Speaker 1: I think even the tech companies would agree. Yeah, competition

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Speaker 1: is good.

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Speaker 4: At least in their public statements, right, yeah, publicly, and

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Speaker 4: we're you know, there's been a lot of talk in

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Speaker 4: recent years about all the ways that progress in technology

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Speaker 4: has slowed down, not necessarily in the development of the

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Speaker 4: tech itself, but you know the way that the landscape

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Speaker 4: plays out, you know, innovation things just feeling like fun

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Speaker 4: and interesting and weird, and a lot of people are

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Speaker 4: arguing that that's because there's been so much power amassed

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Speaker 4: among a couple of very large companies.

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Speaker 2: And it feels like at this point we're at the

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Speaker 2: end of whatever started in like twenty ten. We're getting

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Speaker 2: to the point where venture capital doesn't seem to be

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Speaker 2: being spent in the same way, where actually it's kind

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Speaker 2: of returning to how it wasn't twenty ten. Like I

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Speaker 2: think it was like two hundred and something million last year,

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Speaker 2: it's probably gonna hear about three hundred million this year.

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Speaker 3: And the mask and slut.

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Speaker 2: You're not really seeing the massive acquisitions anymore. You're just

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Speaker 2: kind of seeing the consolidation of industries. But I just

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Speaker 2: I don't know what's gonna happen with generative AI at

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Speaker 2: this point, because that in itself seems like monopoly of sorts.

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Speaker 3: But also it's all gone very quiet. It feels like

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Speaker 3: we're all waiting. I'm hearing about it so much all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden, but also we're all waiting for something

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Speaker 3: to happen. Uh huh.

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Speaker 2: Because we went from recording this, we're obviously in this

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Speaker 2: slight delay. We went from this period where everyone's like,

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Speaker 2: generative AI is over. It's over too, not necessarily saying

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Speaker 2: it isn't, but just everyone's sitting there waiting for someone

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Speaker 2: to blink.

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Speaker 4: Right, and like we're The conversation is constantly about like, well,

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Speaker 4: when the technology gets better, X, Y and Z will happen,

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Speaker 4: We'll get all this innovation, the whole world will shift

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Speaker 4: around it. And it's not at all clear that that

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Speaker 4: getting better thing is going to be real.

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Speaker 3: But also they've stopped even saying that. Now. I started

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Speaker 3: to see people say things like.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've got to look at the smaller language model,

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Speaker 2: maybe the large ones aren't good, right. And what what

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Speaker 2: I do like though, is the Google's pixel event was

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Speaker 2: just pure AI.

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Speaker 3: The week after everyone.

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Speaker 2: Was saying this is a terrible idea, like this kind

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Speaker 2: of looks bad. I don't like how this looks and

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Speaker 2: the it's like, nah, you gotta have AI and your earbuds.

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Speaker 2: Now you need the thing you use for listening. You

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Speaker 2: need to talk to it as well.

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Speaker 4: And it's funny if you look at all the marketing

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Speaker 4: that the big tech companies are doing, like you know,

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Speaker 4: from Google to smaller companies, it's all about like we

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Speaker 4: swear that this is useful, and they have like people

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Speaker 4: you know, doing different things that you maybe you should

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Speaker 4: try using AI for this. I think because they've really

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Speaker 4: built a product that, for a lot of people is

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Speaker 4: not intuitive. It's not clear what it's good for. It's

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Speaker 4: clearly good for something.

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Speaker 3: Is it?

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Speaker 2: And I realized it's good for something? And I got

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Speaker 2: a very annoying email this morning. And I get very

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Speaker 2: annoying emails from someone's saying here is the use case.

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Speaker 2: I use it every day. Just to be clear to

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Speaker 2: that listener, I have no problem with you. Thank you

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Speaker 2: for actually emailing. I love to actually hear how people

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Speaker 2: using it bomb. I feel a lot of the biggest

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Speaker 2: difference with general if AI is everything else that I'm

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Speaker 2: being sold something. I'm being so oh Airport's what are good?

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Speaker 2: You put them in your ears that automatically connect the

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Speaker 2: music comes out, the noise can't slink these.

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Speaker 3: I don't want the noise. I want the noise from

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Speaker 3: the music I'm listening too. And then general IFAI comes

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Speaker 3: along this AI stuff and it's like, well, you could

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Speaker 3: use it for this, I guess what do you think

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Speaker 3: of this? Do you want to try this?

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Speaker 2: And you're like, no, I don't need to write a

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Speaker 2: letter to an Olympic athlete at all, And if I did,

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Speaker 2: I don't need it to be written like Grock.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I've been working really hard over the past

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Speaker 4: couple of months to try and find things I can

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Speaker 4: actually do with it, and I've come across a couple

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Speaker 4: of you know.

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Speaker 3: You tell me like genuinely I would love to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I like it for I. I'm a writer, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So when I'm stuck with like a sentence that I'm

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Speaker 4: having a hard time getting from my brain onto the page,

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Speaker 4: sometimes all you know, write out some like terrible.

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Speaker 1: Version of the sentence. Yeah, you know, stream of consciousness.

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Speaker 4: Ask one of the AI's, you know, for an idea

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Speaker 4: of where I could go with it. I don't ever

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Speaker 4: take that and then use it. But it's like it's

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Speaker 4: I heard someone say it's kind of like talking to

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Speaker 4: a smart brick wall, right, You're not gonna get anything new,

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Speaker 4: but it can kind of help you sort through your

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Speaker 4: own ideas. But that's not what the tech companies are promoting.

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Speaker 3: I'm never gonna pay for that.

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Speaker 2: And I fully admit that's kind of how I've used it.

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Speaker 2: If it's especially some boring workshit Like I don't know,

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Speaker 2: if I'm trying to come up with four ideas to

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Speaker 2: talk about AI and healthcare, I will throw something at

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Speaker 2: it and then none of the ideas will be good.

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Speaker 2: I will be just really clear, it never really get

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Speaker 2: a good idea. But I'm like, oh, that kind of

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Speaker 2: makes me think about it. But again, is this worth

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Speaker 2: one hundred two hundred billion dollars?

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Speaker 3: Is this is this really?

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Speaker 2: Because if they had launched this and the entire thing,

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Speaker 2: this will be like a very twenty tens thing where

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Speaker 2: they're just like, yeah, it's an ideation machine. You throw

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Speaker 2: some shit in, it bounces it back. Because really, that's

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Speaker 2: what of them's are They just kind of repeat the

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Speaker 2: past back to you. If that was what they were saying,

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Speaker 2: and it was like, this is an ideation machine. Open

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Speaker 2: Ai had raised fifty million dollars and this is what

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Speaker 2: it did.

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Speaker 3: I'd actually be.

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Speaker 1: Kind of like, right, sick core product, Yeah, sick.

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Speaker 3: This is just it's kind of a churning machine.

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Speaker 2: This is this is something where oh like it's kind

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Speaker 2: of it's not really creative, but it's kind of lets

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Speaker 2: me bounce things off of it.

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Speaker 3: What a great idea the brick wall, like you.

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Speaker 2: Said, but it isn't it is And that's it's like

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Speaker 2: the opposite of how they're describing it, almost as if well,

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Speaker 2: what you see today it sucks, but what if it

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Speaker 2: didn't Yeah, one day in a non specific way that

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Speaker 2: I cannot describe as I am yet to work it out.

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Speaker 3: It's just but actually back to the question, what have

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Speaker 3: you found any other useful things?

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Speaker 2: Because I really, I genuinely actually feel like this is

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Speaker 2: a useful conversation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I I went and did a ton.

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Speaker 4: I read everything I could find from people that I

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Speaker 4: respect about what you can do with AI, how you

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Speaker 4: can use it, how you can figure out how to

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Speaker 4: use it, And what I landed on was really you

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Speaker 4: just have to try everything you can think of and

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Speaker 4: spend like four to eight hours in total, and eventually

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Speaker 4: you'll find a way that you can bounce back and

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Speaker 4: forth with it. I mean I had to write a

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Speaker 4: bio for something, yeah, and it was useful for because

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Speaker 4: it was just like what does that look like?

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Speaker 1: Like what kinds of things should I include? It was

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Speaker 1: kind of useful for that. It probably saved me half

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Speaker 1: an hour.

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Speaker 2: And maybe that's something it's useful for, where it's like

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Speaker 2: an aed own business copy. But also the very boring

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Speaker 2: structural stuff that no one enjoys writing like bios. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think it's actually very threatening, specifically for writing press releases,

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Speaker 2: express releases.

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Speaker 3: Anything that's formulaic. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And also maybe that's a good thing for it, but

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Speaker 2: again that is not worth plagiarism. That's not worth the

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Speaker 2: insane amount of money it costs.

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Speaker 3: It is really.

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Speaker 2: Crazy, though, how distant these things are, where you've got

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Speaker 2: like this kind of useful thing and just this out

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Speaker 2: outlay of money, this insane amount of money. I have

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Speaker 2: never seen a single thing in tech history anything close

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Speaker 2: to this ever, ever, ever, ever, Like, I.

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Speaker 3: Don't know, is there anything.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there's always a hype cycle thing, right, there's

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Speaker 4: the metaverse or when you know Facebook first blew up.

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Speaker 4: Everything had a social media component but I've never seen

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Speaker 4: write anything close to this level of investment where the

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Speaker 4: whole industry acts as though this really is the wave

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Speaker 4: of the future and it's happening now. That's it. I

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Speaker 4: think it's kind of unpressive.

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Speaker 2: Even the metaverse was the forty five billion that Mark

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Speaker 2: Zuckerberg put into it, which is so funny, still remains funny.

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Speaker 2: That turned out this great Yahoo Finance story about it.

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Speaker 2: Yahoo Finance still still doing stuff, all right. They had

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Speaker 2: a story about how it's mostly just mismanagement. It's just

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Speaker 2: like they keep firing and hiring people.

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Speaker 3: It's just like I love that that. I love the GOV.

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Speaker 2: There is no law about like running a company remotely sustainably.

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Speaker 2: But even then, outside of the metaverse with Meta, I

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Speaker 2: don't think the spend was there. And I'm sure that

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Speaker 2: some smart person who reads things no things very rude

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Speaker 2: do not email me that might say, yeah, the overall

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Speaker 2: outlay for just data centers, maybe that's it. When the

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Speaker 2: push of I don't know when they started moving towards

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Speaker 2: using GPUs for processing outside before llm's maybe then, But

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Speaker 2: even then, this feels like more, and it feels like

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Speaker 2: more for so much less, like we are a year

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Speaker 2: and a half in and we're still sitting there being like.

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Speaker 3: So white is what do we do with this? Yeah, well,

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Speaker 3: my thing that I've wanted to do, and I don't

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Speaker 3: think I'm gonna be able to do it because I

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Speaker 3: think everyone will work out on my dickhead immediately. I

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Speaker 3: kind of want to just ask multiple leaders in tech

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Speaker 3: what is chet GPT and just see if they can

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Speaker 3: tell me because I cannot gun to my head describe,

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Speaker 3: like what is Google Search? It's a way of searching

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Speaker 3: for stuff online. It indexes everything. What is chet GPT?

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Speaker 2: It's sometimes it answers questions?

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Speaker 3: Correct, it's a question answerer.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think And this kind of brings us back

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Speaker 4: to the anti trust conversation right the a year and

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Speaker 4: a half ago. The big discussion was this is an

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Speaker 4: existential threat to Google, right, this is going to be

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Speaker 4: an alternative to search, and you know, whether or not

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Speaker 4: it's good for that, the hallucination problem is a real issue.

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Speaker 4: But I you know, in my own life, I'm trying

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Speaker 4: to use AI as often as I can to understand it.

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Speaker 1: It is useful for you know, the other day.

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Speaker 4: I can't remember what it was, but I needed to

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Speaker 4: look up an acronym, you know, where it's like low risk.

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Speaker 4: I can probably tell whether it's I it yeah, And

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Speaker 4: I'm not like putting that in a story. It's just

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Speaker 4: for my own understanding or something. But I've also heard

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Speaker 4: a lot of speculation that this is part of why

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Speaker 4: Google has put AI at the top of search results.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: It's this anti trust stuff because there's a very real,

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Speaker 4: once unfathom unfathomable possibility that Google is going to get

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Speaker 4: broken up, that they're going to separate the ads business

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Speaker 4: from the search business.

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Speaker 3: And you know, all of the moves that Google.

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Speaker 4: Has been making to change the way the search algorithm works,

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Speaker 4: which you talked a lot yeah about, could be an

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Speaker 4: effort to shift over to where we don't really need

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Speaker 4: to scrape the open web because we're just giving you

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Speaker 4: the answer.

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Speaker 2: But what's crazy is a story came out from Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: the other day where so there's robots dot txt that.

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Speaker 3: And I'm going to fumble this and someone's gonna email

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Speaker 3: and correct me. It's very rude. Again, but how does

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Speaker 3: the internet actually work?

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Speaker 1: Which computer?

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Speaker 3: Is this a phone?

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Speaker 2: But it says that if you try and cut Google off,

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Speaker 2: specifically Google off from your using your website for training data,

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Speaker 2: it will also stop Google indexing it, right, which is

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Speaker 2: what you were saying, is correct. If they were using

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Speaker 2: generative AI as means of distancing themselves and saying we're

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Speaker 2: no longer just not play is a We're not just indexing.

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Speaker 2: We have created this knowledge ourselves, this is our own material.

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Speaker 2: This is not just we're not just passively keeping people

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Speaker 2: out from this. It's actually worse now because if that,

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Speaker 2: if that is the case, that is the anti trust

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Speaker 2: problem with l LMS, with that with Gemini, they have

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Speaker 2: made it so that you cannot get.

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Speaker 3: Away from Google.

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Speaker 2: Google will fuck you over in the event that you

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Speaker 2: try and stop them stealing your stuff.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's so frustrating as well, because there's no

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Speaker 3: real there's no need for them to do that.

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Speaker 2: They could have probably made a very small amount of

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Speaker 2: effort to not make that the case, and maybe they

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Speaker 2: will indeed, it's just like it's like these companies don't

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Speaker 2: even know how to operate normally anymore. They've kind of

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Speaker 2: they're too big, they're too messy. But also their natural

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Speaker 2: configuration isn't We're going to do a thing so that

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Speaker 2: we interact with the ends because it is kind of

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Speaker 2: how it used to be. It's like, we're scraping this,

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Speaker 2: but we provide a service, we send you traffic, you

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Speaker 2: allow us to scrape your website. This is kind of

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Speaker 2: the deal now. It's just no, this is ours now,

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Speaker 2: this is our world that you don't you don't get

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Speaker 2: to play here other than on our rules. And it's like,

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Speaker 2: I that's why I want the breakup to happen so badly,

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Speaker 2: not just because they will be better companies, but also

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Speaker 2: we need a fairer deal for the web.

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Speaker 3: We need a fairer deal for everyone right now.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I've talked to people who work at Google

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Speaker 4: who've told me that it really does seem like there's

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00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,240
Speaker 4: been some kind of mission creep and the people who

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00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 4: run in the company aren't really clear what the company does.

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Speaker 4: And I think part of that, and it's not just Google,

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Speaker 4: is because all of these companies are such behemoths, right

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Speaker 4: and they touch every part of the world. Every decision

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Speaker 4: they make is about a strategy that's expanding to every

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Speaker 4: corner of the Internet and the physical world. So it

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Speaker 4: just there's so many competing incentives for every decision that

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Speaker 4: a company like Google or Amazon makes it's just hard

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Speaker 4: to operate. It's the same thing that happened with the telecoms, right, yeah,

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Speaker 4: they got so big and then you know, when a

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Speaker 4: company is big enough, it's kind of just like stomping

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Speaker 4: around and can't really do anything super effectively.

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Speaker 2: I mean my chat GPT thing. What is chat GPT?

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Speaker 2: What does Google do? What does Google do?

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Speaker 3: Now? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Google is a search company, an ADS company, a phone company,

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Speaker 2: a phone provide a company that have an MVNO with

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Speaker 2: Google Fi, which for listeners is a basically they are

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Speaker 2: on the T mobile network. They are a cloud storage company,

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Speaker 2: a data center company. They are also they have all

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Speaker 2: sorts of business lines. They make robots.

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Speaker 3: No, do they own Boston Dynamics now? Is Boston Dynamics

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Speaker 3: to nevertheless demic robuts Yeah, yeah, Well they're doing something

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Speaker 3: in every ar VR yea what the like? Well?

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Speaker 4: Google is the Internet, right, That's what's going on, not

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00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,800
Speaker 4: just with Google, but with all these companies. It's this

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00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:32,440
Speaker 4: platformization where the open Web is dying and everything exists

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00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,239
Speaker 4: on a platform that some gigantic company is running. Not universally,

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Speaker 4: but that's the direction we're trending.

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Speaker 2: It's most of them and it's but Google is I think,

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Speaker 2: and this is the thing. I don't hate technology. I

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Speaker 2: actually really would love Google to be where they work.

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Speaker 3: It's great. I love tech a lot.

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Speaker 2: Fifteen twenty years ago Google I didn't mind like they

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Speaker 2: were doing a decent job.

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Speaker 3: Yeah they were.

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Speaker 2: Even the old Facebook in like two thousand and five

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Speaker 2: is a pretty good product.

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Speaker 3: Ye.

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Speaker 2: And then mox Zucker Book's kind of evil and I've

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00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 2: done plenty of episodes on him. But Google is just

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Speaker 2: I think symbolic of the problem. They are symbolic of

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00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 2: the too big not too big to fail because they've

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Speaker 2: kind of proven that as well, that they seem incapable

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00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 2: of failing despite their failures. It's just maybe we shouldn't

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00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 2: have a company that does everything. Maybe they need to

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Speaker 2: be broken up, and there needs to be genuine legislation

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00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,480
Speaker 2: that stops companies getting that big, because I don't think

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00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,400
Speaker 2: as a product, Google Search needs to be bad, and

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00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 2: I think it could be insanely profitable without being a monopoly.

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Speaker 2: It's just that at some point I think this company

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Speaker 2: became a private equity firm. I think they became a

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Speaker 2: private equity firm that gets bankrolled by Google Search, and

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Speaker 2: that change those incentives. I mean, it makes sense if

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Speaker 2: you're as a company, don't believe you can lose customers

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Speaker 2: if you don't believe that if everything is kind of

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00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:54,960
Speaker 2: because the other units of Google, and we'll never know

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00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,240
Speaker 2: because even public they don't really break it down.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how many units.

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Speaker 2: Of Google are profit without Google Search, Like how much

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00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 2: of it is bankrolled.

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Speaker 1: They're making sixty percent of the company's money. It's coming

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Speaker 1: from search.

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00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

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00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,400
Speaker 2: And also it's a terrible way to run a company.

380
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,159
Speaker 2: It's an awful way to run a company. And it

381
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,159
Speaker 2: isn't how they used to do things. But in and

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00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,959
Speaker 2: breaking them up I think is good. I think we

383
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,640
Speaker 2: need an example in the tech industry we get going well.

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00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,720
Speaker 4: I mean, we're at a point where now we can,

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00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,720
Speaker 4: you know, officially say like Google is legally a monopoly.

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00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:26,960
Speaker 1: Yeah at this point, right, like we.

387
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,119
Speaker 4: Don't have to we don't have to edge Google is

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00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,399
Speaker 4: a monopoly at least in the search business. There's a

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00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 4: bunch of other anti drust cases. Maybe other parts of

390
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,879
Speaker 4: the company are going to get declared to monopoly. But

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00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,960
Speaker 4: that's how monopolies work, right, Like, once you achieve enough

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00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,560
Speaker 4: market power, you don't need to make a good product, right,

393
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Speaker 4: Like I talk.

394
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Speaker 1: To people all the time.

395
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,320
Speaker 4: It used to be I think back, you know, fifteen

396
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 4: years ago or maybe even long with the early two thousands,

397
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,439
Speaker 4: Google was the best search engine.

398
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Google came out. It was better than AltaVista,

399
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:55,919
Speaker 1: it was better than Yahoo.

400
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:56,480
Speaker 3: Excited.

401
00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,320
Speaker 4: That's why excite, ask jeeves, right, that's why go one originally?

402
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:01,880
Speaker 3: Right?

403
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,160
Speaker 4: At this point, is Google actually better than Being? I

404
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,560
Speaker 4: think most people couldn't tell you the answer that question

405
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 4: because they they don't use that.

406
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 3: They kind of seem the same.

407
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,160
Speaker 4: I try, you know, I switched my default search engine

408
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,920
Speaker 4: to being for a while. It was not as good

409
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,199
Speaker 4: because I'm not used to it, But in terms of

410
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 4: the results, it seemed fine.

411
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 3: Being news is better, which is you like being? What

412
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,160
Speaker 3: a horrible sentence? Being is also really terrible to say.

413
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,280
Speaker 3: I don't I don't like to say. I don't like

414
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 3: saying Google's fun. Being is.

415
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 4: Maybe it's just because we're not used to it, you know,

416
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,680
Speaker 4: but I tried saying, you don't want to be sitting at.

417
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,399
Speaker 3: Home going being being, but it's kind of nice. But

418
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,480
Speaker 3: also being is not great, But neither's Google? And what

419
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,080
Speaker 3: is a good search engine? Anymore.

420
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 2: And I think again, it comes back to the incentives.

421
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,160
Speaker 2: It's do they know what's a good search engine anymore?

422
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 2: Do they actually? I I will admit I've been kind

423
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:55,199
Speaker 2: of black and white over this.

424
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:56,680
Speaker 3: I say Google doesn't care.

425
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 2: I know that there are tons of people inside of

426
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,000
Speaker 2: Google I've spoken to who are like, I fucking hate this.

427
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,120
Speaker 3: I hate how this is happening.

428
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 2: I mean the Department of Justice, emails and Ben Gums

429
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,200
Speaker 2: you could see the pain and Shashi Thakur and Ben

430
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,679
Speaker 2: Gums as they fought against this. And I think that

431
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 2: what sucks is it never had to be this way.

432
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,760
Speaker 2: Never did not once they could have kept fucking that

433
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,120
Speaker 2: chicken and get so much money they forever, but it's like.

434
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:23,240
Speaker 3: No, we must grow forever.

435
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 2: But also, on some level, it's horrible to say, why

436
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 2: would they bother? They had the monopoly they have, they

437
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 2: have the world by the bulls, Why would they? Why

438
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 2: why bother being good? I just don't get why they

439
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 2: let it be so bad? Like it's so bad, it's

440
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 2: so bad. It's so awful. When you go look at

441
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 2: something and it's just four Breddit posts and four forum posts,

442
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,879
Speaker 2: four other things. You've got a technical support thing, and

443
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,120
Speaker 2: all the forum posts are it's people saying I too

444
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,119
Speaker 2: had this problem, anyone fix it? And then no, and

445
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 2: then maybe occasionally like a bot being like, I have

446
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,399
Speaker 2: no idea what happened here? Cora is the best have

447
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 2: you seen Have you looked at Cora recently?

448
00:19:58,640 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 3: Uh?

449
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty insane.

450
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 4: And also, like now Reddit is having problems because Reddit

451
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 4: users and businesses have realized that's how you get to

452
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:08,439
Speaker 4: the top of Google.

453
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 1: So all of the SEO stuff that.

454
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,919
Speaker 4: Was happening on the web is now happening within conversations

455
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,880
Speaker 4: on Reddit, so that's being polluted in the same way.

456
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 3: Have you seen how coorra has had a DAI. I

457
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 3: don't know if I'll come across that now.

458
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: Okay, so listeners, I want you to go and look

459
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 2: up something on korra right now, because right now on Cora,

460
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,439
Speaker 2: if you look, most of the time, it will have

461
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 2: a chat GPT response at the top. This is why

462
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 2: for a while on Google you could look up can

463
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,360
Speaker 2: I melt an egg? And it would come up and say, yes,

464
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 2: you can melt an egg, because I will keep trying

465
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 2: for your science. But now what it does is they

466
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,479
Speaker 2: have chat GPT at the top, and it's just like,

467
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 2: so the entire point of Cora is that it's human beings, right,

468
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 2: who have questions and their answers and you go on

469
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 2: there because it's like wow, subject matter experts who are

470
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 2: rewarded with Cora cloud.

471
00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 3: I don't really know, like there's some sort of points system.

472
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 2: Like any good thing on the Internet, it's mostly just

473
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 2: degenerate posters who really love stuff.

474
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 3: Except now it's that.

475
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 2: After just the world's most awful generative thing and then

476
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,919
Speaker 2: an obvious ad and then an answer to a different question.

477
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,679
Speaker 2: Now you may think, why did this happen? Well, the

478
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,679
Speaker 2: CEO of Cora, Adam di'angelo, is on the board of

479
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 2: open AI.

480
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 3: That's why. It's just it's like the death of the

481
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,679
Speaker 3: open web because these guys just went I got mine, bitch.

482
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 3: I don't need to find stuff anymore. I know everything.

483
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to look at the

484
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 4: way that Google has changed in the past year two

485
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 4: years and see well, I mean it's also hard to

486
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 4: say whether it's better or worse because like what is

487
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:47,640
Speaker 4: good Google? First?

488
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 3: What is good?

489
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 4: But then also just what is Google Search? Like it's

490
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 4: such a gigantic, diffuse product, like there's no way to

491
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 4: really examine it wholesale from the outside. But you know,

492
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 4: people were adding Reddit to the end and their search

493
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 4: queries because the things that were coming up on Google

494
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 4: weren't what they wanted. They wanted like some kind of

495
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 4: authentic human response. So Google shifts and now they're showing

496
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 4: Reddit at the top. Maybe, well, people were putting in it.

497
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 4: Maybe that's what they want. Can Reddit results?

498
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? How is that better?

499
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 2: It's it's it's because I don't think Google. It may

500
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,439
Speaker 2: just and I'm hypothesizing here, we don't actually know, but

501
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 2: if I had to guess, it might be because when

502
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 2: you build a monopoly that's this successful in any case,

503
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: you stop learning how to build products. You just you

504
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 2: don't have those muscles aren't in there to say, oh, right,

505
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 2: I need to serve a customer, and if I don't

506
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 2: serve the customer, they might go to a competitor. So

507
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: it went from being like what is the best search result?

508
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 3: To fuck? What do people want? Now?

509
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: Who are these people who keep bothering me with questions? Ah,

510
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 2: these little pigs?

511
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 3: They want Reddit? I guess credits where things happen now?

512
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 4: And there are ways that I sympathize, right, Like, because

513
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 4: of the system that Google set up, you know, because

514
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 4: of SEO search engine optimization, everyone who you know has

515
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 4: the time and the money has figured out how to

516
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 4: set up their web page to game Google search receipts.

517
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 4: So it's the system that they developed to sort through

518
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 4: what's good and bad and what should be at the

519
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 4: top kind of, you know, it's it's harder and harder

520
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 4: to make that work because the signals that they identified

521
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 4: everyone figured out. So the web has kind of changed,

522
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 4: and I think that's a big part of why the

523
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 4: results are and it's good. I think it's because there

524
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 4: simply aren't great results to be found.

525
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 2: I agree fifty percent. Like I agree that there is

526
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 2: an adversarial nature with SEO and the people have been

527
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 2: trying to screw with Google forever. The other thing is,

528
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: this company makes like one hundred billion dollars a year.

529
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,479
Speaker 2: My sympathy for the challenges here is so low. And

530
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: also SEO people get There are good SEO people, Lily

531
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 2: ray Rox's she's great.

532
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 3: There are good people out there.

533
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 2: But I would argue the majority of SEO is fucking

534
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: evil and it is adversarial to the web.

535
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 3: And also Google should fight it. Google should make war

536
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 3: with them. Google should make it. They lie. Google lies.

537
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 3: I'm fucking saying that you don't have to. They lie

538
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 3: and say, oh yeah, we're making helpful content updates. Screw you. No,

539
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 3: you're not shut down.

540
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 2: Every shut down Dot Meredith, shut down every single company

541
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 2: that has re engineered their content to rip off others,

542
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 2: and screw SEO.

543
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 3: He hello, not Hello fresh, that the house house fresh.

544
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 3: There you go, they're a great article about SEO. Thank

545
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 3: god you remember that.

546
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: I was talking about how Dot Meredith basically outdid them

547
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 2: on SEO by working out the signals.

548
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 3: What Google could do is, I don't know. I'm not

549
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 3: some genius guy, but here's an idea. If you mess

550
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 3: with Google, Google messes back, Google says you want to

551
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 3: mess with me, I will cut you in out of Google.

552
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 4: Well that and that happened, it does it happened? Well,

553
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,719
Speaker 4: not not on a large scale. But there was a

554
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 4: case recently that no one really talked about. But I

555
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,479
Speaker 4: didn't even know this. Every gigantic news publisher, you know,

556
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 4: from CNN to tiny little companies, has like a vertical

557
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 4: on their site that has coupons on it. Yes, right,

558
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 4: and Google went in and decided and it's not original content.

559
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 2: Right.

560
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 4: They were like white labeling stuff that coupon companies were

561
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 4: giving them. Right, Google went in it said this is

562
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 4: not allowed anymore. You're abusing the authority of your domain

563
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 4: name and we're not gonna let you do this. And

564
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 4: you know, I think there's an argument that that's better

565
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 4: for consumers that if I search for a coupon, it's

566
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 4: now presumably I'm gonna get sent somewhere where a guy

567
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 4: who just makes coupon's posted it.

568
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 3: But there are all these other.

569
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 4: Cases that you're talking about where it seems like Google

570
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 4: either is okay with the way that they're being abused

571
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 4: or they don't have a solution in mind. But they

572
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 4: have so many like their resources are so enormous.

573
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: And the thing you're talking about with the it was

574
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: there's a specific term. I'll probably be emailed as well,

575
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: but it was basically that they would have content like

576
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: coupons and other things on that they'd have high domain

577
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 2: authority posts from completely different shit. But the way I'd

578
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: push back on that, you're right by the way they

579
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: did do that, and that's a good thing. Is Google

580
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 2: a coupon right now? Google, look up a coupon, listeners,

581
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: go and do it. Look at the amount of sites

582
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 2: like retail me Not that just have broken coupons. They're

583
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: all broken, and they're full of shitty ads that cover

584
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: your screen and they make your iPhone go to one

585
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: thousand degrees and melt through your desk, and it's disgusting.

586
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: That is That's the kind of thing that I'm just like,

587
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: I don't think Google cares because that is an experience

588
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,239
Speaker 2: of the average person. I want to buy something on

589
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: a website. Is there a coupon I can use?

590
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: Oh? The majority of this content is outright fake.

591
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 4: Right, And that's the counter argument, right, And I don't

592
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 4: think that the coupons on retail me Not they're the

593
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 4: same ones that you're seeing on CNN, dot coupons or

594
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 4: whatever it is. Yeah, not literally, but for the most

595
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 4: part they have the same problems. But maybe it's the

596
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 4: wrong question is this better or us? Because the other

597
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 4: one that we can ask is and it's the one

598
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 4: the government is asking. Should Google be the one who

599
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 4: gets to decide what is and isn't okay on the web?

600
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 4: They have unilateral decision. May be for twenty years it

601
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 4: was totally fine to do this on CNN and the

602
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 4: La Times and every other website, and then all of

603
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 4: a sudden, with very little warning, it's forbidden now, and

604
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 4: companies have set up entire business models like these coupon

605
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 4: verticals were making tons of money for news publishers that are,

606
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 4: you know, on the brink of shutting down, like the

607
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 4: La Times had one.

608
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: The La Times is in big trouble.

609
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:33,479
Speaker 3: Right.

610
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 4: This was bringing in I don't know the exact figure,

611
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 4: but lots of money every year, probably to the two

612
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 4: and of million millions of dollars. And Google says, you're

613
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 4: done with this. You don't get to do this anymore.

614
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 4: This is not a way that you are allowed to

615
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 4: make money on the Internet.

616
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: Right.

617
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 4: That's a lot of power for one company to have

618
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 4: over something that is infrastructure.

619
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 1: The Internet is infrastructure, I think.

620
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 3: And that's a really interesting point because I believe that

621
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: any such engine is if their job is to get

622
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 3: you the best results, should have that power. Conversely, I

623
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 3: also believe that there should be a quality level, because

624
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 3: you can do that theoretically. I think that that's a

625
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 3: good thing that they carve if you maintain quality elsewhere.

626
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 3: If it's just arbitrary. I've decided that.

627
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: This thing doesn't work for me and it's a black

628
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: box like everything with Google, then it needs to absolutely

629
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 2: needs to go. But I would actually be a little

630
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: bit okay with Google being more forceful with stuff if

631
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: Google actually did the thing it's meant to do.

632
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 3: The original Google.

633
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: The thing that made it good is it cut through

634
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: the noise that there was always a lot of noise online,

635
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: not just social just shitty websites, good websites, and Google

636
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: would get you good results. It was the thing that

637
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: helped you search the web. Can we even argue it

638
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: helps you search it anymore? It doesn't feel like it's

639
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: doing the job it's meant to do.

640
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 3: It doesn't.

641
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: It indexes everything, fine, who gives a fuck. I don't

642
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 2: need it indexed. I need the good stuff brought to

643
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: me so that I don't have to go and find it,

644
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: except now I have to, which is fine. But I'm

645
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: also a horrible online gremlin. I'm online. I know all

646
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: the websites. I've memorized all the URLs. Now, I don't

647
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: think most people have, and I think most people's because

648
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: that is really what this is about, not you or

649
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: me or people who are like online all the time.

650
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 2: It's about regular fucking people who depend on this, and

651
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: it's good they cut off the coupons because a bad

652
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: that's a bad thing for regular people to just.

653
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 3: Get exposed to.

654
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: But also, I don't know how about you actually protect

655
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: people from the malignant stuff in the ads. I was

656
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: on Google the like month ago and I actually emailed

657
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: Danny Sullivan the search of Liason.

658
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 3: Hi Danny, now you love me?

659
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: And I bought a GPD Win four pocket from what

660
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 2: I thought was the GPD Win four website. GPD website

661
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: GPD is a they make little gaming console PCs. They're fantastic.

662
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 2: I put down thousand dollars this thing. I then realized

663
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: when I looked in the PayPal that it was some

664
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: Chinese guys email at gmail dot com. And this was

665
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: because the first result was a sponsored ad for a

666
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: fake website. This happened to me and I'm pretty good

667
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: at this and it was just a well designed page,

668
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: and I'm I was so embarrassed, like this is my

669
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: internet cred gone right?

670
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: All of my.

671
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,479
Speaker 2: Hates O, my hater has found out they were outside

672
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 2: my applauding. It was terrible for me, very bad very unfair,

673
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: But Jesus Christ, you can't keep the fake ads off

674
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: the page, Like.

675
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 4: Come on, well, it's bad enough. I think that it

676
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 4: was last year or the year before. It might have

677
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 4: been twenty twenty two. It was bad enough that the FBI,

678
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 4: do you remember this, They issued a statement that said

679
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 4: consumers should use ad blockers because there's so much spam

680
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 4: and abuse in ads that in order to protect yourself,

681
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 4: you just shouldn't even be seeing the ads anymore.

682
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 3: So just to cut to ads for a second.

683
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: If you want to protect yourself, if you really want

684
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: to make your life better, I really recommend the first

685
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: thing you do immediately is to listen to this following ad,

686
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: which will directly and precisely aligned with every belief I

687
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: have had and will have in the future.

688
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: And we're back.

689
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: And I think the funny thing about all of this

690
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: as well, is these companies always say.

691
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 3: Well, the web is too Basil's too our jobs are

692
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: too hot. But it's like even just one guy in

693
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: Google who's just trying to search for the worst stuff,

694
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 3: not even the obvious words like horrible, like like, because

695
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: I think they're probably quite good at c SAM and

696
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 3: like outright illegal stuff but just I don't know a dickhead,

697
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: just the I'm the guy at Google, who's the dickhead.

698
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 3: I just search for the annoying stuff. We fix it.

699
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: I know they can do that.

700
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: I refuse to believe that they can't pay a guy

701
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: to just find this stuff, to be a regular john

702
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: who just sits there and go googles things like coupons,

703
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: who searches for fake websites. For a while, on Google News,

704
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: there was a website called good Morning Kashmere I think

705
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: it was called, and it would just rip off everything.

706
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: And when I say everything, I mean pretty much every

707
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: major tech site and then get Google News syndication. When

708
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: I told Danny, sorry, Danny, I'm putting you on blast,

709
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 2: but you didn't say off the record.

710
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 3: When I told him, he was like, well, you shouldn't be.

711
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: Using Google news chronological view because it doesn't really work.

712
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, what the what the what?

713
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 3: What? Excuse me? What? That's the thing.

714
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: And I think that this is the problem with a

715
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 2: lot of these big tech companies. They just see customers

716
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: as like, well, you.

717
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 3: Are the problem. And I think that actually this is

718
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 3: an industry wide thing where consumers have been gas lit

719
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: and this is definitely me doing like a book pitch.

720
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 3: But it's true.

721
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: I think that consumers have been made to feel like,

722
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: oh when tech fails you.

723
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 3: This is a lack of awareness of how good tech is.

724
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: You didn't read the privacy parlast exactly. You didn't use

725
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 3: the manual.

726
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,719
Speaker 2: You didn't do this Apple, And I know my listeners

727
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: want me to bag on Apple as an app store

728
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: thing coming. It's gonna be mean, it's gonna be nasty,

729
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: very unfair to mister cook.

730
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: But we'll get to that. Apple does a generally better

731
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 3: job of not treating the consumer well, maybe treating them

732
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 3: like an idiot, but sometimes you have to. If you're

733
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 3: selling things, sometimes you're an idiot.

734
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: Well and I am regularly, But if there are hundreds

735
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: of millions of people, you should assume that the base

736
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 2: level understanding is as low as it can be, and

737
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: that the manual is a backup plan. But it's the opposite. Now,

738
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: Chat GPT, well, you don't know how to use it

739
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: well enough. And I'm not saying you said that like

740
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: you were saying this in this manner, but you need

741
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: to put hours into it. That just shows such a

742
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 2: U's a loathing in my opinion for customers like, oh,

743
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 2: you're not smart enough to use the future.

744
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: Fuck you, this is meant to be artificial intelligence. I'm

745
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: not meant to be smart. It's meant to be smart.

746
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and especially when it comes to the content moneration issue. Yeah,

747
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 4: the search results are on Google or getting worse, or

748
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: they're being abused, or the ads. You know, there's just

749
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 4: a report the other day about ads for illicit drugs

750
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 4: on Facebook, and you know, I hear the argument that

751
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 4: there's so much content that it's just not possible that

752
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 4: human beings could go through all of this. You know,

753
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 4: that's only an argument that's acceptable if you start with

754
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 4: the presumption that these companies should exist. But on the

755
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 4: other hand, I'm not even sure if it's true. I

756
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 4: was talking to one of the guys who works at

757
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 4: the private equity firm that owns porn Hub.

758
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: It's called Alo now used to be called mind.

759
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 3: Geek in fascinating.

760
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 4: They told me that every single video on porn hub

761
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 4: gets reviewed by human being, every video on Pornhub, which

762
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 4: I can't imagine a worse job than that, because I mean,

763
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 4: like the things that people must be uploading on there

764
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 4: that don't make it onto the site.

765
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 3: But it is possible. That's a terrible job.

766
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 4: Like then you have to you know, pay for therapy

767
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 4: for the people who are doing it to say that

768
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 4: it's just not possible.

769
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: Maybe you should be running fewer ads.

770
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 3: But that's the porn hub. That's an interesting one. Me.

771
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 3: I've never used porno, but I imagine now, but with

772
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 3: something like porn hub, it proves it's possible, because, yeah,

773
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 3: you'll get fucked up as a porn hub if you

774
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 3: don't do this right, if you don't review everything and

775
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 3: make sure that there's no copyright, that there's no underage,

776
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 3: that there's no outright illegal stuff, and because there are

777
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 3: very clear, very stark penalties for that, there aren't for ads.

778
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 3: And I think one of my favorite.

779
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 2: Ideas that i've I've read is Darren Asamoglu previously on

780
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: the show Becoming on in the Future Mit Economist, he made.

781
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 3: A suggestion put the CEOs in jail.

782
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: Now I realized that's a little much, but drilling down

783
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 2: the idea, if there was personal liability for Mark Zuckerberg,

784
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: I bet all those problems go away immediately. I think

785
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg make it his mission to have the cleanest

786
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: ad experience in the world because the reason that they

787
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 2: do it is they can get away with it. I refuse, Like,

788
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: to your point, maybe there should be less ads. Maybe

789
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: if I walk around and I have a crowbar in

790
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: my hand, I think I've used this example before, and

791
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: I'm swinging.

792
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 3: It will in nearly and I hit a few windows

793
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 3: on the smash.

794
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: I love my crowbar. It's so much fun. But if

795
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: I do that, do you think I have to pay

796
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: for the windows I smash? Do you think I'm gonna

797
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 2: get arrested? Of course I am. Well, my job, I'm

798
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 2: paid to swing the crowbar. The crowbar must be swung.

799
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: That I make four million dollars a year swinging the crowbar.

800
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 2: This is my job. The cops aren't going to be like, well,

801
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: this is just commerce. We're not going to mess with

802
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: the economy. And sometimes a few windows get broken. No,

803
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: they'd be like, stop doing it, and that's because property

804
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: damage is illegal. How About they make it illegal to

805
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 2: fucking show these ads and there are actual penalties. How

806
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 2: About there is an actual quality level for all of

807
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: this stuff. I think that you can't do like swinging

808
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: legislation where it's like search results must be this good,

809
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: but there should be company and CEO level liability for

810
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 2: if I get scammed due to a Google ad that

811
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 2: is on Google, Like that is a not only are

812
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: they liable for whatever I lost, but my legal costs

813
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah blah.

814
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 3: There should be actual things. And I think that that

815
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 3: is the problem.

816
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: It all happened relatively fast, like a couple of decades,

817
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 2: which seems like a while, but for legislation isn't. Yeah,

818
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: But to your point, like, do these companies have to exist?

819
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 3: Probably not.

820
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 2: It's good they do, but if they can exist, they

821
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: should be held to some account. There should be Now

822
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: that you've said that, I'm really thinking about, like do

823
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: they need to exist? But why can't they deal with

824
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: this stuff? What they never seem to be asked? Why

825
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 2: they never? Oh, there's too many of them. No, there's not,

826
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 2: Like there's.

827
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 4: Just no we can say that there shouldn't be scams

828
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 4: and Google ads. I don't think that they have a

829
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 4: legal obligation to make sure that there's not.

830
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: I'm aware they don't, so you know, you like they

831
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: could put.

832
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 4: Soon Arpachina jail, or you could you know, just you know,

833
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 4: write a law and have there be some penalty that

834
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 4: affects the company's sack price, that they'll address the problem.

835
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, we don't. There are no rules about the Internet.

836
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 2: And there are definitely false advertising. There's definitely lying it

837
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: like it's FDC. I believe it's FCCC. Always get those

838
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: wrong cases.

839
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 3: Probably listening going to.

840
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 2: Get mad, But that's the thing, like those they need

841
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 2: to be enforced. But on top of that, when I

842
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 2: say put them in jail, IM mostly joking, right. I

843
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: think personal liability, however, would do really well. If they

844
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: will like I will lose Pshai makes like two hundred

845
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 2: million a year, mostly in stock. How about he loses percentage,

846
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: not dollar amounts, percentages zero point five percent, not for everything.

847
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: But perhaps that's an aggregate thing.

848
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: If they are like, oh my wealth will be directly attacked,

849
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: I think some UPSHI would immediately. There would be this

850
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 2: insane quality improvement. Same with Zuckerberg. Zuckerberg right now is unfireable.

851
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 2: But if we set these things for the chief executives

852
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 2: who are paid three hundred times their employees' salaries, if

853
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 2: they were paid this insane amount of money but it

854
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: was a job with inherent risk, Hell yeah, I think

855
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: that would start changing shit really quickly for the better.

856
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: In the same way that competition creates better companies, I

857
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: think risk would create better executives. I think that they

858
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 2: would start getting real, real worried about this stuff. And yeah,

859
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 2: they could still get paid in the insane amount of money,

860
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 2: which I still think is too much, but it would

861
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: be kind of like being an NFL player. You risk

862
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: your body, you risk your money, you risk your nasty

863
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 2: little houses. I don't know, There's just it feels like

864
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: what's exciting right now with all this anti trust stuff

865
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: is we're finally seeing consequences, though, real nasty, mean consequences,

866
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: and the people getting upset are really funny, like all

867
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: the people I've seen them have matter like tech analysts, like,

868
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: now you can't hit the Googles.

869
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 3: So good. I love it.

870
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 4: Well, what I'm really excited to watch is presumably there's

871
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 4: going to be some kind of consequence here. Right the

872
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 4: government says Google is a monopoly, We're going to see

873
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 4: what they do. Maybe they break them up, maybe they

874
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 4: give them some enormous fine. And then there's another antidos

875
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 4: case for Google in the United States. There's yet another

876
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 4: one in the EU. Then there's all the cases that

877
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 4: all the other companies are facing. I wonder whether or

878
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 4: not it's too late to turn the web around, Like

879
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 4: it'll change, it'll become something else. Can we go back

880
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 4: to the open web the way things were five or

881
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,240
Speaker 4: ten years ago. If you break Google up and suddenly

882
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 4: there's competition, Suddenly there's incentive to send people to different

883
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 4: parts of the Internet instead of to a different part

884
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 4: of Google, would it get better or has it just

885
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 4: collapsed to the point where we need to build something else.

886
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: I don't think it's collapsed. But I will also say

887
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: something a little controversial. The Internet wasn't great fifteen years ago.

888
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 2: I think we all need to.

889
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 3: Like, it's not like it's worse now, but oh waw

890
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 3: live journal? Did we love live Journal?

891
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 2: I had friends on there like it was cool, but

892
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: like was it? I love Twitter in its prime. I

893
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: love Blue Sky. I love the fact that I can

894
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: text you and my friends and I can signal people.

895
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 2: There's it's really great things on there. And I think

896
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: that what we perceive as the open web is to

897
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: your earlier point, like maligned by Google. Google has fucked

898
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: it up to the point that we don't think it exists.

899
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: It does, and I think the companies like substack are

900
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 2: nakedly evil. I think substack is one of the most

901
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 2: evil companies out there. I think their support of the

902
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: Nazis is disgusting. Hate miss if you're listening, eat my asshole,

903
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,720
Speaker 2: My fucking my fucking family died in the fucking ovens

904
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: in Germany. Fuck you bitch, seriously, this is to you,

905
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 2: Hamish mackenzie and any anyone who's currently on substack, even

906
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: if it's one Nazi who's making money on substack, fucking

907
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: kick them off.

908
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 3: It's sickening.

909
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: And substack now is making it so you can create

910
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: publications on there which don't involve email addresses or newsletters anymore,

911
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 2: becoming another platform, and that's what sucks, and that's what

912
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: really sucks about how things are. But platforms as a

913
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: service are not necessarily a bad thing. My journal was

914
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 2: a platform and then they, like every company, got acquired

915
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 2: by a larger company, which got acquired by a larger company.

916
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 3: Ghost I love because they're mostly just yeah, it's a service.

917
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: You can run it your own. Molly White hasars self hosted.

918
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: I run it on a website with the person who

919
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 2: helps because I'm stupid. But the sloppy point I'm getting

920
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 2: to is the open web is still there. It's still

921
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: being built, and thanks to the good services, it's still growing,

922
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 2: and it's still accessible and it's still cool. If we

923
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 2: can realign these search engines, or maybe there is a

924
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: future Google competitor it is not search GPT, I think that,

925
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: I don't know, we could find it again. I think

926
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 2: that there could be if these companies were realigned so

927
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 2: that they could actually, I don't know, index the Internet.

928
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 3: There is plenty of original human created content out there.

929
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 3: It's just that Google and Being and all of these

930
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 3: sites have kind of defaulted on that position of showing

931
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 3: us it and we have to search for it through

932
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 3: social networks. It's why as an independent journalist it's tough

933
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 3: to build a following because all of the algorithms people

934
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 3: are built to rely on are broken now.

935
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 4: Right, And if you're not doing it the way that

936
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 4: the TikTok algorithm or the Google search algorithm wants you

937
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 4: to do it exact, no one's going to find your stuff, right, Like,

938
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 4: It's absolutely true. There's a nostalgia thing going on. The

939
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 4: Internet used to be better, you know, I remember when

940
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 4: I was a child.

941
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: I was happy.

942
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 4: It must have been because of the way things were

943
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 4: then that they are not now. That's that's true. But

944
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 4: the one thing you can say is the internet is

945
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 4: not as weird as it used to be. Right, there's

946
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 4: less opportunity for just total, like absolute free expression that

947
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 4: is not limited by trying to please some kind of

948
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 4: algorithm and to fit into some kind of box.

949
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 3: I don't I.

950
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: Think that that's how to prove right or wrong. I

951
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: know what you're getting at. Yeah, you're seeing less of that.

952
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's not being created.

953
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 3: Right. There are wonderful, weird.

954
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: Strange communities, unique community There are like I don't know,

955
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,720
Speaker 2: I said this to someone earlier, like furries are probably

956
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 2: doing some of the most interesting things online. Not my

957
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: cup of tea, but respect to them. Also they do

958
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 2: some of the funniest hacking things ever. Yeah, but like

959
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 2: the fact that a community like that can thrive online

960
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: is lovely. If whatever you're doing, as long as everyone's

961
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 2: consentual and happy with it, wonderful, enjoy yourselves. I feel

962
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: a like communities like that can do really well online,

963
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: and they are and they're able to find people like that.

964
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: Thanks to some of these platforms. The problem is the

965
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: algorithms are normalizing everything to kind of a blunt edge,

966
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 2: which I think that's kind of exactly.

967
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, this stuff is out there, but can you find it?

968
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 4: Is it the stuff that we're all consuming way we

969
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 4: go on the internet? Will it be served up to us?

970
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 4: The stuff that you're seeing is the stuff that you know,

971
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 4: keeps you staring at TikTok for the longest, which you know,

972
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 4: maybe that's good. You know, it helps TikTok more money,

973
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 4: helps them make a platform that makes it easy to

974
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 4: make tiktoks. Maybe that's a good thing, But there is

975
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 4: this flattening effect that I think, you know, it is dulling, right, Yeah,

976
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 4: it stifles creativity because it limits the way that you

977
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,479
Speaker 4: can make money, and it also creates a path to make money,

978
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 4: so maybe it creates more content too.

979
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: There's you know, there's two sides to everything.

980
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 2: But and I think that the problem is that these

981
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 2: algorithms are so easily gamable. But there's this wonderful Jason

982
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 2: Kobler legend at for or for Media that this amazing

983
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 2: piece about the Indian guys basically defrauding Facebook.

984
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 3: Did you read this? Yeah, where these guys.

985
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: I need to have Jason on just to talk about

986
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 2: this story. It's insane where there is a Facebook Creator

987
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 2: program and all of that AI slot. The shrimp Jesus

988
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: at al that you see is these Indian guys who

989
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: are just using him as generators and have worked out

990
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: I can throw this rock in this puddle and it

991
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 2: will go everywhere and I'll make real money. And these

992
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: guys are like, like I think one of them was

993
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 2: like paying for disabled brothers wheelchairs, which is so fucking cool,

994
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 2: Like one guy did it, like Facebook did its first

995
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 2: good thing while also destroying itself. And what's crazy is

996
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 2: how did Facebook meta not see that and go we

997
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 2: need to get everyone in the boardroom right now read

998
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 2: alert because that is a insane like the shrimp Jesus

999
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: things should have done it. And the problem is, I

1000
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 2: think they could make really good, nuanced algorithms that race

1001
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 2: really interesting, meaningful cool shit they don't want to. I

1002
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: think they actually enjoy their ability to influence and dominate

1003
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 2: culture and to choose what will happen in the same

1004
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: way that a lot of these generative AI kind of

1005
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: normalized beauty standards.

1006
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 3: And Cory Doctor on the last Better Offlies said this

1007
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 3: very well. He was saying that.

1008
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 2: There is something inherently conservative about generative AI because it

1009
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: and any kind of auto complaint. Indeed, because it's just

1010
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 2: you say I love and it's gonna say you, you

1011
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: kind of normalize this one point.

1012
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 3: They don't. There's no incentive for them to.

1013
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: Build interesting algorithms, so they just build the one that

1014
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: kind of works for everyone, that shows you the slop,

1015
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 2: the slop that works for you, and it kind of

1016
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 2: pushes everyone in one direction. And I think maybe you know,

1017
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 2: think about it, maybe that's You're right about the nostalgia aspect,

1018
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: and that's what we miss in the The web doesn't

1019
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 2: feel exploratory anymore, right, We're not like looking or searching anymore.

1020
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: It's here's what has been decided is popular. And what

1021
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 2: I think this has led to in the media at least,

1022
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 2: is there's a lot of people, a lot of companies

1023
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: that are falling apart because and this is not their fault,

1024
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: they have built their services as media outlets to appeal

1025
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 2: to Google and the algorithms, and that worked. And guess what,

1026
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 2: that stuff was popular because whether and this is the

1027
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: who made who thing?

1028
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 3: Right? Is it popular?

1029
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 2: Because the algorithm shows it, or because a lot of

1030
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 2: people like it, or do a lot of people like

1031
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: it because the algorithm chose it to be popular, And

1032
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 2: as that falls apart, I don't know, man, And.

1033
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 3: It's like, what is popular? What is culture right now?

1034
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 3: Is actually a very open question.

1035
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 4: Right, Well, we just put out a story about this

1036
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 4: where it's not the shrimp Jesus. But if you've seen

1037
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 4: the AI cats, there's this thing.

1038
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 3: No, it's incredible.

1039
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: Should we just put it out?

1040
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 4: It started on TikTok and it's spread to Instagram. It's

1041
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 4: AI generated images of cats in very upsetting situations, like

1042
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 4: there's one cat and his son like gets kidnapped by

1043
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 4: a pigeon, or they're at this they're in the sea

1044
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 4: and Godzilla comes and attacks them, and this stuff is

1045
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 4: blowing up. It's getting tens of millions of views. Is

1046
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 4: it because that's what people like and want? Or is

1047
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 4: it because this is what the algorithm is serving them?

1048
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 4: And it's like juice is engagement? Kind of hard to say,

1049
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 4: but I mean I kind of like it.

1050
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 3: I like it as well.

1051
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 2: But something that a lot of Internet culture reporting I

1052
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: feel like kind of fails for this reason because instead

1053
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 2: of analyzing the source. They analyze this instead of analyzing

1054
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 2: the problem, they analyze the symptom. Right, So it's like,

1055
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 2: why is Brat so big? Why is is this brat?

1056
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: Am I Brat?

1057
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 3: It's like, that's a fucking Charlie x X. I'm so old.

1058
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: I'm so fucking old.

1059
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 2: I just say, even saying that out loud, I age

1060
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 2: ten years.

1061
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 3: I am neither brat nor cap.

1062
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: And but even then that she's a famous musician, people

1063
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: like a music.

1064
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 3: It's not for me. People seem very happy with it.

1065
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 3: The Brat thing I want. That's one where I just

1066
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 3: look at it.

1067
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, is this something that was popular because she's

1068
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 2: a popular musician or is it because the algorithm made

1069
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 2: the specific Brat thing popular? And it's like, I don't

1070
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 2: even we don't know how these algorithms work, so we

1071
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: don't actually know how to say that.

1072
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 3: We don't we don't actually know how to pull this apart.

1073
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: So I think with these algorithmic situations as well, maybe

1074
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 2: them falling apart is a good thing, or maybe these

1075
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 2: companies having to do more than just make the algorithm

1076
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: make stuff popular is for the best, Because I do

1077
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: miss accidentally finding stuff and the way we find things

1078
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: accidentally used to be the goofiness of the Internet, but

1079
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 2: also sharing. It used to be we got things through

1080
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: our friends sharing stuff. It's why Twitter originally was so

1081
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 2: fascinating because it was we found it three free tweets.

1082
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: But now it's like, I guess most people use the

1083
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: for you feed, which is insane to me, Like do

1084
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 2: you use that?

1085
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: I often do because I don't think about it.

1086
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 4: I open Twitter and that's just what I'm looking at

1087
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 4: and then I realized that I haven't scrolled over. Yeah,

1088
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 4: And I mean, here's a place where I think we

1089
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 4: could get some useful government regulation, because you know, I

1090
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 4: don't know if I want, you know, Congress to write

1091
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 4: rules about how content recommendation engines work.

1092
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 3: I don't know if I it's a propaganda thing to have.

1093
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: And it's also like a free speech is ue.

1094
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 4: Do we want them dictating what content you see and

1095
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 4: what you don't. Probably it's probably not even constitutional.

1096
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: But what they could.

1097
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 4: Do is they could mandate that the company be more

1098
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 4: transparent about how the algorithms work. They tell you how

1099
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 4: does hinge decide which people you see? In which people

1100
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 4: you guess? How are they judging you? How is Google

1101
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 4: determining where the search results go? What's showing up on

1102
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 4: your TikTok account. I think if there was some visibility

1103
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 4: into how that stuff worked and what the metrics were

1104
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 4: and what information was being collected, I think it would

1105
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 4: push the companies to change their systems in a way

1106
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 4: that was slightly more consumer friendly. It would change it

1107
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 4: in one way or another, but I think just visibility

1108
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 4: could be an incentive to give something that was more

1109
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 4: useful to the consumer.

1110
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 2: I agree, But I think the other thing that needs

1111
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 2: to happen is, and I don't know how you do this,

1112
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 2: is there also must be an incentive for these companies

1113
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 2: to have quality control.

1114
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 3: Because I don't know.

1115
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 2: Elon musk Oh, yes, I've made the entire epic based

1116
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 2: algorithm public and he's like, there's definitely something though in there,

1117
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 2: because they've definitely get The reason I ever use twitters

1118
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 2: for you feed is within two seconds that will see

1119
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: an actual Nazi.

1120
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 3: I'll be like, no, thanks, I don't need to see

1121
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 3: like the fourteen Yeah, yeah, I don't need to see

1122
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 3: the the latest iteration of a Hitler account that's been

1123
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 3: allowed on there. But I think that there needs.

1124
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: To be a quality level because otherwise, well, actually it

1125
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 2: gets back to the SEO thing. I want these companies

1126
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 2: and I don't know how you create this as an

1127
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 2: incentive to want to attack those who manipulate them because

1128
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 2: SEO has an idea.

1129
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 3: I get it if SEO because there's really, from what

1130
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 3: I understand, two things of SEO. There is the qualitative side,

1131
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 3: where it's like Google is saying this so that the

1132
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 3: quality of the website on Google is good. This is

1133
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,959
Speaker 3: the original idea for it is that when you click

1134
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 3: on a website, it won't scam you, it will load fast,

1135
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 3: it will have good information, it will make for it, it

1136
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 3: will be a good result. Google has given the hell

1137
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 3: up on that. That is gone.

1138
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: We are no longer in the Google that actually does that.

1139
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 2: But that actually is a good thing. And Lily Ray

1140
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 2: was explaining this to me on the episode. It's like

1141
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 2: that as an idea is actually very very very good.

1142
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 2: I wish that more companies, including Google, stuck to that

1143
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 2: where it was we're making sure we're doing a quality service.

1144
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 2: But the other side is, okay, this is the stuff

1145
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,399
Speaker 2: we like, this is what we will promote on here.

1146
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: And what sucks is I actually think that side is evil.

1147
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 2: I think that they should consider anyone actively trying to

1148
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 2: manipulate the algorithm the enemy. If you are a website

1149
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 2: that is creating content entirely to index well on Google,

1150
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 2: not based on how good it is, then you should

1151
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 2: be considered by Google the enemy.

1152
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 4: If they it is surprising that they encourage SEO. It

1153
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 4: seems counter to the whole point of search engine that

1154
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 4: you would be able to game it.

1155
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 2: I think it's just laziness. I think it's laziness is

1156
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 2: probably the wrong word. There's no incentive for them to

1157
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 2: not do it because some ICEO is good.

1158
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,919
Speaker 4: And that's the thing, right, Like, how do we solve

1159
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,240
Speaker 4: this problem? Like again, I don't think that most people

1160
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 4: want the guy verh dictating the way that Google works.

1161
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 4: But you know, if you went back in time and

1162
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 4: told the high school version of me that I'd be

1163
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 4: here defending free market capitalism, this is something that competition

1164
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 4: can help with, right, Like, Yeah, if I really would

1165
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 4: switch over to bing, if bing was better and that

1166
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 4: was easy and it didn't take any effort, and you know,

1167
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 4: it was one click away, then Google would be fighting really,

1168
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 4: really hard to fix the very real problems that they

1169
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 4: cropped up recently, and I think that's probably if nothing else,

1170
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 4: what is almost certainly going to happen, unless the whole

1171
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 4: court case gets thrown out, is that you're probably gonna

1172
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 4: get a pop up right in your face every time

1173
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 4: you set up a new device or a new browser

1174
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 4: that asks you which search.

1175
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 1: Engine you want to use.

1176
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 4: Most people are going to pick Google, but there's gonna

1177
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 4: be some sizeable percentage that goes over to Bing, that

1178
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 4: goes over to Duck dut go, and all of a

1179
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 4: sudden there's pressure to make the products better, both for

1180
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 4: Google and for these companies.

1181
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 3: What's in as well is Microsoft Being is profitable. By

1182
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 3: the way, what would be crazy? And this is such

1183
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 3: an adela as one of my lesseners.

1184
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure you're listening, but you're not. What if being

1185
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 2: was really good? This is a crazy idea I had.

1186
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 3: What if being was good? What if when you use

1187
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:18,760
Speaker 3: being it found really good results?

1188
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 2: I have this crazy idea that people might go, Wow,

1189
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: a search engine with good results. What if this whimsy,

1190
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: this curiosity we're talking about. What if a search engine

1191
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: I don't know search the web? What if the algorithm

1192
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 2: at being prabagar Ragavan's left over dinner that he left

1193
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 2: from when Yahoo connected to it. What if there was

1194
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 2: actually something that being found that was cool. What if

1195
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 2: Being became a very useful search engine that found good results.

1196
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe that might scare Google. And what's

1197
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 2: crazy is they don't want to.

1198
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 3: I just don't think they want to. I don't think

1199
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 3: any of them.

1200
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,720
Speaker 2: They all realize it's slop and that their little pigs

1201
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 2: have to use there. But if literally one of them

1202
00:55:59,239 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 2: was just.

1203
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 3: Like, what if we made it good? And all the

1204
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 3: guys in the boardroom are like, it'll never work. It's

1205
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 3: never gonna work. Man. People don't like good things. They

1206
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 3: like bad things.

1207
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 2: Look at Google, But I think that that would if

1208
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 2: they saw if one of these people just saw it

1209
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: and went, wow, why was the internet good before? Well,

1210
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 2: there were less websites, which isn't really true, Like, okay,

1211
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 2: there were a billion versus a trillion websites. You still

1212
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 2: can't read all of them. Like, what if they did

1213
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 2: the job that we wanted to.

1214
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 3: One of the reasons Twitter used to be.

1215
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 2: So good was because it was kind of a live

1216
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 2: fire hose of the Internet. The reason that Facebook was

1217
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 2: used to be so good was that it was for

1218
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 2: evil reasons as well. At Database of People, you could

1219
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 2: find your real friends that you lost connection.

1220
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: And it was a little bit better than MySpace. Yes

1221
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: you know that's it doesn't have to be night and day.

1222
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,439
Speaker 1: If it's two percent better, people will realize that they'll

1223
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: go over and then there will be more money flowing

1224
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: and then it can get even better. It's it's real.

1225
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: And Facebook was insanely profitable right up to the IPO

1226
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,439
Speaker 2: and it was pretty good. There was to be clear,

1227
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 2: and I did it in the Facebook episode. There quite

1228
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 2: evil things. But the other thing that is exciting about

1229
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 2: the Google edge trust that kind of leads into this

1230
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 2: is they might have to share their advertising data, which

1231
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 2: I think is going to get really bad for both

1232
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 2: Facebook and Google because I think below the surface, you're

1233
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 2: going to find out that they know way too much,

1234
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: Like they know way more than they want to let one.

1235
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 2: But also they probably know enough to really do really

1236
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 2: cool personalized experiences and they.

1237
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 3: Just don't do it. They just don't want to. Like,

1238
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 3: they could probably make a.

1239
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: Great search experience for everyone because they know like your

1240
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 2: blood type and the last time you went to the toilet,

1241
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: but they can't do that. But they can use it

1242
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 2: to advertise you scam versions of PCs.

1243
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 3: You want to buy. It's just like the incentives are gone.

1244
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 2: But also transparency might be really fun for this, just

1245
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: because when they show how much they.

1246
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 3: Can do well.

1247
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 2: First of all, I think the government's going to be

1248
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 2: quite pissy, and also I don't know. Maybe they could

1249
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 2: get creative and earn their customers. But also I don't

1250
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 2: think on a complete different subject, I don't think Google

1251
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 2: can survive being broken up. I don't think it's possible.

1252
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 2: I don't think they can do it. I don't think

1253
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 2: that they as a company operate in a way that

1254
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 2: is like if you separate the ads from the such

1255
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 2: the fuck.

1256
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 4: If you separate ads from search, I don't know what

1257
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 4: Google is anymore. You can have a very powerful, big

1258
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 4: search company, yeah you can, and there are very powerful

1259
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 4: large ads companies, but nothing approaching the power and heft

1260
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 4: of Google can exist without those two things being paired.

1261
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 4: And I think that the anti trust case against Google's

1262
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 4: advertising business from the outset appears to be even stronger.

1263
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and there's a place.

1264
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 4: Where you know they there's a lot of discussion about

1265
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 4: what's going to happen with this search case, maybe they'll

1266
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 4: break off Chrome or Android from Google. That doesn't seem

1267
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 4: super likely because the case didn't address either of those products.

1268
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 4: It's just about search. But with the ads case, I

1269
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 4: think there's if we're breaking up monopolies now, if we

1270
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 4: decide that they're monopolies, Yeah, that seems like a very

1271
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 4: real possibility. And if that happens, it's going to be

1272
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 4: a completely different Internet almost immediately.

1273
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 2: And something that some of the louder, more annoying tech

1274
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 2: guys are saying is this is a bad thing.

1275
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 3: This is the.

1276
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 2: Government scaring away innovation. No, I actually think that this

1277
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 2: is a utopian idea. I think that we need fear

1278
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 2: in their hearts. But also we need to make it

1279
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 2: clear that big companies like this aren't a good idea.

1280
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 2: It's not a good idea to have a giant company

1281
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 2: that does this the app store on I like Apple

1282
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 2: in general, but I think, yeah, keep your keep your

1283
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,439
Speaker 2: laptop business, your phone business. That's all fine. App store

1284
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 2: needs to be separate. Make the Apple App Store a

1285
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 2: completely separate thing. And maybe this changes how iOS is developed.

1286
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 2: Maybe this makes it so that iOS apps can run

1287
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 2: on other devices. Maybe this is altogether something that shatters Apple,

1288
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 2: But maybe that is a good thing.

1289
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 3: You can you can install whatever apps you want on

1290
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 3: your fucking that mac. Why call it them on my iPhone?

1291
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: It's hard to argue that more choice is not better

1292
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: for people.

1293
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 3: And it is. And actually that's the thing.

1294
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 2: I can be kind of cynical, but all of this

1295
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 2: stuff makes me very optimistic because what might stop happening

1296
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 2: is these companies might stop anticipating antitrust and changing themselves

1297
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 2: to avoid it.

1298
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing.

1299
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 4: And I mean, you've heard this argument the story before,

1300
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 4: but I wrote about this for Gizmoto. No matter what

1301
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 4: happens with all of these anti trust cases like Google

1302
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 4: lost this one, maybe the tech companies win every other case.

1303
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 4: They're still in trouble, right Yea tim Wu called it

1304
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 4: the policeman at the Elbow effect, where the fact that

1305
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 4: these companies are under such scrutiny they need to move slower,

1306
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 4: They need to be more careful, they need to be

1307
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 4: more apprehensive about doing things that crush the competition. That's

1308
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,919
Speaker 4: what happened to IBM in the sixties, right, Like IBM one,

1309
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 4: it's anti drust case, but it lost the Computer Wars

1310
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 4: because it couldn't innovate, it couldn't compete because the government

1311
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 4: was watching them. That could happen here like maybe Amazon wins,

1312
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 4: but the way that they're hamstrung because these cases are happening,

1313
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 4: creates an opportunity for someone to step in.

1314
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 3: It also feels like we're right now.

1315
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: The thing I've been described to people is there is

1316
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 2: a tension in the air with the tech industry where

1317
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 2: it feels like all of those medicine consequences of actions

1318
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 2: are popping up. Like Intel right now. Intel a lot

1319
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 2: of their new generation processes might be entirely like a

1320
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 2: form of broken that might be very hard to fix.

1321
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 2: The blackwell GPUs that are coming out the next generation

1322
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 2: GPU is necessary to push Generator VII, so it's sometimes

1323
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 2: that puts out a useful result also delayed. I think

1324
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 2: there are like parallel processing issues, like it's dough GPUs

1325
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 2: talking to each other. It's crazy, but I think we

1326
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 2: might finally be seeing the cost of growth at all costs,

1327
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 2: like this is the real at some point you can't

1328
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 2: grow this fast forever. And maybe the answer is we

1329
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 2: are watching the raw economy get actually collapse to it

1330
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 2: an extent because you can there is a limit to science,

1331
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 2: and there is a limit to what you can build

1332
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 2: and how fus you can build it. But if the

1333
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: end result of all this anti trusting is also they

1334
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 2: get afraid of being too big, that may be genuinely

1335
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 2: one of the best things to happen in society, because

1336
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:23,919
Speaker 2: we don't need five five trillion dollar companies that will

1337
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 2: be ten trillion dollars in two yet we don't. Who

1338
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,959
Speaker 2: does that serve other than Jim Kramer.

1339
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: Right, And I mean clearly things have changed.

1340
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 4: Like if you just look at the rollout of AI,

1341
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 4: the fact that if you go up to some random

1342
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 4: person on the street on Fifth Avenue and ask them

1343
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 4: how do you feel about AI? I think more than

1344
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 4: half of people are going to tell you that they

1345
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 4: don't like it or something that.

1346
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: I don't think it's.

1347
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 4: About AI so much as it's about just changing feelings

1348
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 4: about the tech business. Ten fifteen years ago, people loved Google.

1349
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 4: They just thought Google was a nice, good company. People

1350
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 4: loved Amazon. It was like the two day shipping. This

1351
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 4: is so great. Now every company has a really serious

1352
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 4: popularity problem, which you know, when we're talking about social

1353
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 4: media platforms, like that's existential. If I just like TikTok

1354
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 4: more than I like Instagram reels. I might just hang

1355
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 4: out on TikTok more. And this general shift. I don't

1356
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 4: know what's going to happen in terms of regulation, but

1357
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 4: it's clear that to one extent or another, the party

1358
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 4: is over and we're about to enter some kind of

1359
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 4: new chapter. Whether AI changes everything, whether the Internet is

1360
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 4: different than it was in some technological way, some big

1361
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 4: platform shift is.

1362
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 3: Going to happen.

1363
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 1: I think things are going to start to feel different

1364
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: than they have for the past couple of years.

1365
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 3: And if you want to feel different, perhaps you could

1366
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 3: engage one of the wonderful advertisers that will follow this

1367
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 3: message true as usual, will align precisely with the things

1368
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 3: I believe and love. Please buy the products or don't.

1369
01:03:53,360 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 3: I can't make you. And we're back. And I think

1370
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 3: what you're saying is really interesting, because it is.

1371
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 2: It used to be that they're afraid of just like

1372
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: using it, losing a user, But now it's because they're

1373
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 2: so precisely and like granulally and like analyzing every interaction

1374
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 2: and monetizing every interaction. Every impression makes them a little

1375
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 2: shred of money so that they can sell to someone

1376
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 2: else and here and there and everywhere. It's more than

1377
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 2: just it's not just oh, I've lost Thomas to TikTok.

1378
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 2: It's that percentage of time that you're not spending on Instagram.

1379
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 2: If that that is a kind of an hard to

1380
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 2: calculate thing. But that shift I'm sure is happening with Facebook.

1381
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 2: It's more than just raw traffic. It's okay, I'm barely

1382
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 2: looking at Facebook.

1383
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 4: Now.

1384
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 3: I will go on Facebook.

1385
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 2: I check it like like that like a nest camera

1386
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 2: outside my house, to make sure like there isn't like

1387
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 2: a dog trying to scratch a whole know why they'd

1388
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 2: be happening, Just trying to choose a thing that would happen.

1389
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 3: Very normal guy. But it's you look at it because

1390
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 3: it's there.

1391
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 2: Say, with Instagram, I like check seet, I maybe messaged someone,

1392
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 2: But I'm not focused on any of these. I'm focused

1393
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 2: on Twitter and Blue Sky. I read that shit, I

1394
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 2: love it. Maybe I'm more of a text based guy,

1395
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 2: but with threads, I barely touch it. And I think

1396
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 2: the thing is that these companies have forgot how to

1397
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 2: compete entirely. They're not trying to make good shit anyway.

1398
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 2: They're not making sure the cool stuff is that they're

1399
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 2: just like, well, you have to be here.

1400
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 1: From the outside. It really did seem like Facebook in

1401
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: particular got complacent, like, yes, there were there were so

1402
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 1: many stories. No one's using Facebook anymore. It's a wasteland.

1403
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 1: It's just baby boomers falling for misinformation. You know, that

1404
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 1: was the story everyone was hearing. It seemed to be

1405
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 1: true to some extent. I actually think that that's changing.

1406
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 4: I now open Facebook every single day and I'm not

1407
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 4: going on there to look at my feed.

1408
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 1: It's because of Facebook Marketplace. Facebook Marketplace is an incredible product.

1409
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 4: People love it. You can sell your stuff, you find

1410
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 4: really bizarre thing. I know, tons of people it's like

1411
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 4: become like sharing memes. A bunch of my friends will

1412
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 4: like send each other the weird thing that we'll find

1413
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:10,440
Speaker 4: on Facebook Marketplace. And I think that's because there was pressure, right,

1414
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, Facebook was in trouble. People were leaving,

1415
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 4: and they had to shift the way that the platform worked,

1416
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 4: and they built this product that is, you know, I think,

1417
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 4: kind of phenomenal.

1418
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: It's very useful to my life. You know, half the

1419
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 1: things in my apartment now I bought a Facebook Marketplace

1420
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: and the feed is getting better. You know, I think

1421
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: if you.

1422
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 3: Go and you look at the concept, I don't know

1423
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 3: if I agree with.

1424
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: I mean compared to how it was a year ago.

1425
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 3: No, man, I I maybe your Facebook fee is better

1426
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 3: in the mind.

1427
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: Maybe it's maybe. And then you know, tunorth I get.

1428
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 2: Like recommendations for the most insane groups. Yeah, I mean

1429
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 2: I want to say right now, I want to see Facebook. Yeah,

1430
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 2: I'm actually going to pull up Facebook.

1431
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 3: This is always good to do it a fine Yeah,

1432
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 3: Gary tan One on an audio show, immediate second thing

1433
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 3: is an ad, So then it's reels that it's a

1434
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 3: picture of a guy.

1435
01:06:57,400 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 4: Is is Facebook serving me content that I want? I'm

1436
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 4: not sure, but I do find myself.

1437
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 3: Person enjoying it in a way.

1438
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: That I didn't one year ago.

1439
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 3: Maybe stress it's chilling a little bit less ads.

1440
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's I think the experience has gotten better, certainly

1441
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 4: for me.

1442
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: And that's the kind of stuff that happens.

1443
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 3: I don't like when there's a constumption firm my biases.

1444
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think marketplace is an interesting one as well,

1445
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 2: because it is useful. I bought she off of that product,

1446
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 2: but it's being poisoned already. You've started to see direct consumer.

1447
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 3: Shait on that. Absolutely, yeah, but also.

1448
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 2: I think it makes them let it makes them enough

1449
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 2: money that they keep it alive, but not so much

1450
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 2: that they want to just they can't.

1451
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 3: You can't really make it more evil.

1452
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 4: Like I doubt that it's making the money, like there

1453
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 4: are ads in it. Maybe it is directly making a

1454
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 4: profit there, certain if you buy something through Facebook, Marketplace

1455
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 4: or taking cut, I think it's just getting people to use.

1456
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 3: Facebook with a useful product.

1457
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg has woken now he hasn't. It's so weird though,

1458
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 2: because the more I think about it, I don't. I

1459
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 2: just don't think that there's much way to reduce engagement

1460
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 2: from marketplace. It isn't something that marketplace is only useful

1461
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 2: if it's interesting or funny. It's not like someone engaging

1462
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,480
Speaker 2: for two minutes on marketplace is like an ad impression.

1463
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:23,920
Speaker 3: Well there, I mean you see ads.

1464
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 2: On that, but it's not like a meme or a viral.

1465
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's definitely you can't really do engagement bait.

1466
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 1: You're not gonna get I think on marketplace there's only

1467
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 1: a handful of people who have whatever particular blend of

1468
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 1: OCDA at ADHD that I have that they're going to

1469
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: look at the marketplace for an hour straight clear.

1470
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 2: I live in Las Vegas, Nevada. The shit on the

1471
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 2: shit on there is it would be like, yeah.

1472
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:45,640
Speaker 3: I stole it.

1473
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:48,479
Speaker 2: Incredible, I stole a bunch of shit. Classic better offline

1474
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:52,360
Speaker 2: listener from the Blastio. I am on the lamb. Please

1475
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 2: meet me in this parket lot. I will be at

1476
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 2: a different one in an hour. The law is behind me.

1477
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,040
Speaker 3: The ship that people the cars that people sell on

1478
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 3: there as well, incredible, Like I've seen multiple cars with

1479
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 3: not all of the wheels.

1480
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 4: Well, my favorite thing is Vice shut down its office

1481
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 4: in Williamsburg, right, and some guy stole the signs like

1482
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 4: the big Vice signed dam and he hasn't been able

1483
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:17,320
Speaker 4: to sell it. But every couple of months I'll put

1484
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:19,480
Speaker 4: it back up and he wants like twenty thousand dollars.

1485
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 3: For a damn. I was gonna say, if it's cheap.

1486
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 1: I mean you could crowdfind. Right, there's a lot of

1487
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:23,679
Speaker 1: people I'm.

1488
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 2: Not giving I'm not giving a criminal twenty thousand dollars.

1489
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 2: They just listen to this show. Maybe he is one

1490
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 2: of them. And but that's the thing, like what we're

1491
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 2: describing is the magic of the Internet, because the best

1492
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,800
Speaker 2: things of the Internet are delightful watching people be like, yeah,

1493
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,759
Speaker 2: everyone does broccoli milk, right like, just like some weird

1494
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 2: they think they're normal and they find themselves into the

1495
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 2: regular world and like, yeah, this is how normal things

1496
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:47,559
Speaker 2: and they're not normal at all.

1497
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:48,840
Speaker 3: And sometimes it's quite.

1498
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 2: Distressing, but most like, there's this horrible meme of like

1499
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 2: a guy he's screaming at his dog right now because

1500
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 2: he like fed it roast duck, and then his mother

1501
01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:59,679
Speaker 2: comes back and he screams at the dog that saying,

1502
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 2: this ate the roast duck.

1503
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 3: It's horrible.

1504
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 2: It's creating a horrible discourse right now. That's horrible. But

1505
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 2: also right now, you can go on Instagram or TikTok

1506
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 2: and look up most wildlife reserves and they're all doing

1507
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 2: the same thing, which is they put a camera on

1508
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 2: a spoon and they feed animals. It's magical, it sounds good.

1509
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 2: I could watch it for hours. There are so many

1510
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 2: weird like cities by Diana on Instagram. Diana, she is

1511
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:25,439
Speaker 2: one of the early Dongwash and Long me and people,

1512
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 2: did you see the dongash Long There's an episode about it,

1513
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 2: and a lot of her stuff is just this kind

1514
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 2: of concussive actual brain rop which is in my opinion,

1515
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:35,760
Speaker 2: what brain rod is just giving yourself a concussion, but

1516
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:38,800
Speaker 2: it's kind of artistic expression that fucking rocks. There is

1517
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 2: this stuff still out there, and I actually think some

1518
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 2: of these platforms have enabled it. The problem is, I

1519
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 2: don't think the platforms know they're enabling it. I don't

1520
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 2: think they're being like this is cool and unique. I

1521
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 2: want to surface this because it's not like the rest.

1522
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 3: They're like they just automatic like uh signal and now

1523
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 3: this is popular. It's why shrimp Jesus popular on Facebook

1524
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 3: because they don't really care about the algorithm. They don't

1525
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 3: really care that it shoves good stuff. This is popular,

1526
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 3: so it's popular. It's this weird self fulfilling prophecy. I mean.

1527
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:17,640
Speaker 4: And my real, you know, concern with it is that

1528
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 4: it only allows for a certain kind of content. Right,

1529
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 4: Like there's mister Beast, he's got a gigantic empire. The

1530
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:27,759
Speaker 4: next person down the wrung of like the content creator,

1531
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 4: it's like thousands of miles away. Yeah, and he's kind

1532
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 4: of got a media business that he started. It's only

1533
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 4: focused on him, and there's basically no other media businesses

1534
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 4: that just operate on the Internet. It only allows for

1535
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 4: this certain kind of relatively low effort content or the

1536
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 4: kinds of things that one person can do over the

1537
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:49,639
Speaker 4: course of a week, and it's limiting that that's something

1538
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 4: that with the previous model of the open Web, with

1539
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 4: the way that advertising works, you could start a company

1540
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 4: and do the kind of work you can only do

1541
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 4: with multiple people working on the same project. I love

1542
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 4: all of this stuff. Yeah, the brain rot, there's people doing.

1543
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 4: The latest thing that I've seen is people making AI

1544
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 4: videos where the point is the kind of playing with.

1545
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: How it hallucinates. It's great.

1546
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 4: But if I want like high quality journalism or you know,

1547
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 4: a TV show, you know, with like comedy writers, that

1548
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 4: can't exist when the platforms take as much of a

1549
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 4: cut as they do.

1550
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 2: Or when the platforms promote stuff. Miss the Beast Jimmy.

1551
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 2: He doesn't seem like a good or a bad guy.

1552
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 2: He seems like the first truly mid person. Absolutely like

1553
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 2: the first truly mediocre human. Mediocre doesn't mean bad, just

1554
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 2: means middle.

1555
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 1: And he's really good at it.

1556
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 3: But also is he good at it?

1557
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,559
Speaker 2: Is he actually good or did the algorithm simply choose

1558
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 2: him because nothing. I've watched his stuff. I've watched a

1559
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 2: lot of it just to try and find out. And

1560
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 2: it is just like being slapped in the head repeatedly.

1561
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 3: Are you paying attention? You pay? Yeah, you don't need

1562
01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:57,680
Speaker 3: to pay attention. I'll be here.

1563
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 2: I'm not content content content, And people like, oh well,

1564
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 2: kids love it.

1565
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,800
Speaker 3: It's like it's what's top of the algorithm, it's what

1566
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:05,680
Speaker 3: they stop watching it.

1567
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 2: But also you can watch other shit, like how much

1568
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 2: of this is a self fulfilling prophecy? And I am

1569
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 2: three hundred and eighty years old, right, and thus maybe

1570
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:16,360
Speaker 2: some of this just bounced off me.

1571
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 3: Maybe this is what kids like. But also I don't know,

1572
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 3: people like what's popular, and what's popular is what's chosen

1573
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:26,760
Speaker 3: by the algorithms. How much of that is really intentional

1574
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:30,080
Speaker 3: on these kids or what? Maybe this is just the.

1575
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:32,599
Speaker 2: Algorithms create their own miniature cults. How much of this

1576
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 2: high quality stuff, like really high quality like comedy and

1577
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 2: such would do well if it was given a chance

1578
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 2: to be the algorithm? How much of this algorithmic stuff

1579
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,639
Speaker 2: actually offers this stuff up and gives it a shot,

1580
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:48,519
Speaker 2: because that's what's missing. It's not really giving anything a chance.

1581
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:51,720
Speaker 2: It's not thinking, well, this is new and unique, this

1582
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 2: journalism is really fucking good. I need to show more people.

1583
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:56,600
Speaker 2: And maybe it's not popular, maybe people look at it

1584
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:58,880
Speaker 2: and never click it. And the answer is the algorithm says, okay,

1585
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 2: but you need to keep trying, and I don't think

1586
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 2: they try.

1587
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:05,680
Speaker 1: Well, there's also the business side of it.

1588
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 4: There's like what the algorithm is showing you, but then

1589
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 4: there's also like you've got a really great one man.

1590
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:12,639
Speaker 1: Journalism operation going here.

1591
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 4: But it's a certain kind of journalism, right, if you

1592
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:17,320
Speaker 4: want to do like beat reporting, you need a team

1593
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:19,880
Speaker 4: of people focusing on individual things, or you just or

1594
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:22,400
Speaker 4: you just have one beat, or you just have one beat.

1595
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:26,720
Speaker 4: That's true, maybe that's what the future of news looks like.

1596
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:29,719
Speaker 4: But like I think having an editor is helpful.

1597
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:30,960
Speaker 3: Oh I have an editor.

1598
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, well yeah, of course exactly, But like you can't

1599
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:37,600
Speaker 4: if you were only doing this on TikTok, you probably

1600
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 4: couldn't afford to have an editor until you became huge,

1601
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:43,840
Speaker 4: you know, And that it only permits like not just

1602
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 4: what the algorithm is showing you, but in terms of

1603
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:48,800
Speaker 4: where it's possible to make money. There's only a certain

1604
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:50,639
Speaker 4: kind of thing that the algorithm allows.

1605
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 2: I wonder how much of this as well as just

1606
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 2: demographic and that algorithmic stuff where it's just like this

1607
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 2: person seems this age and this gender. Will just show

1608
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 2: them this and they just like, this is what this

1609
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:04,680
Speaker 2: person will see? That transparency thing you're saying earlier, it

1610
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:06,759
Speaker 2: would be great to know if that's what it was doing,

1611
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,280
Speaker 2: because if that's what it's doing, that is actively bad.

1612
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:10,800
Speaker 3: It's actively bad.

1613
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 2: And also how commerce works, it's just I have decided

1614
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 2: they will target you and you are like this, but

1615
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 2: when you're providing content, I don't know how much of

1616
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 2: this is.

1617
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 3: I'm not saying you have to do that.

1618
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:23,400
Speaker 2: Vacuous thing where multiple news companies have been like, what

1619
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,840
Speaker 2: if we showed polarizing content the challenge their views. No,

1620
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, give me a little bit of the

1621
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:32,479
Speaker 2: people I follow on Twitter and Blue Sky especially, there

1622
01:15:32,479 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 2: are multiple people I follow because the shit they raise

1623
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 2: is really interesting. My mate Casey will talk about a lot.

1624
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,720
Speaker 2: He sends me links all day and it's great one

1625
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 2: of my dearest friends. But that's what I actually like

1626
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 2: the Internet for. It's not just that I am finding stuff,

1627
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 2: but it's the collective consciousness of friends I know and

1628
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 2: people I follow and people I do or don't know

1629
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 2: sending me things.

1630
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:53,439
Speaker 3: It's cool. I enjoy it.

1631
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:57,760
Speaker 2: These what we're missing from Google search? Is it kind

1632
01:15:57,800 --> 01:15:59,719
Speaker 2: of used to be that? What we're missing from Twitter?

1633
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 2: Is it kind of used to be that this kind

1634
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 2: of zeitgeisty feeling. But also the unique stuff that would

1635
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 2: pop up didn't really come from the algorithm at all.

1636
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 2: That came from people finding it and look like really

1637
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:14,599
Speaker 2: great internet culture reporting, like Rebecca Jennings of Vox great

1638
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:17,559
Speaker 2: stuff there. She's really good at finding these things, these

1639
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:20,639
Speaker 2: things that I don't know that It's not like, oh yeah,

1640
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 2: this says everything about everyone, but it's like, I find

1641
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:27,040
Speaker 2: this unique, weird little story. I found these weird little freaks.

1642
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:30,080
Speaker 2: Mia so Sarto at The ViRGE when she's writing about SEO.

1643
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:31,759
Speaker 2: One of the great things she does is she doesn't

1644
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 2: just talk to one SEO expert. She goes and finds

1645
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:36,280
Speaker 2: these weird websites. Yeah, it's one of like an iguana

1646
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:37,800
Speaker 2: on it. You need to go and look at me

1647
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 2: as work.

1648
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:40,200
Speaker 3: She's amazing. I don't know.

1649
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 2: I think what we're the nostalgia we have is it's

1650
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:45,200
Speaker 2: so much. It's not so much the open web has gone.

1651
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:48,599
Speaker 2: It's just it's become obfuscated. Yeah, it's kind of like

1652
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 2: the commercialization of all content. It's when we see mum

1653
01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 2: and pop stores go away. And there are cases where

1654
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:57,919
Speaker 2: mum and pop stores weren't good. But yeah, having unique,

1655
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 2: competitive stores that sold different things, competed on prices but

1656
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 2: also on supplies. A big comics fan here at least

1657
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:07,479
Speaker 2: used to be the death of having lots of comic

1658
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:11,559
Speaker 2: bookshops means finding comics is actually quite difficult. Now you

1659
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 2: can buy them, but finding something unique and interesting because

1660
01:17:14,200 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 2: there's less places to go to talk to some guy

1661
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 2: who reads comics behind the counter of a comic store

1662
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:21,680
Speaker 2: all day and has insane opinions. Matt Weinberger, by the way,

1663
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 2: I'm sure you listening. You have many stories there. But

1664
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 2: it's like that's the magic we're missing. It's actually this

1665
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 2: is so tribe a human connection. But it really is, though,

1666
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 2: and they used to scale it, They used to scale

1667
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:35,960
Speaker 2: humanity and they don't anymore.

1668
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:39,600
Speaker 1: And maybe we go back to that, you know, like

1669
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:42,639
Speaker 1: why is this stuff happening? Like it could be because

1670
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:47,800
Speaker 1: the algorithm is directing us towards you know this like monoculture,

1671
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:50,320
Speaker 1: or it could be that's what people wanted at this

1672
01:17:50,360 --> 01:17:52,520
Speaker 1: moment in history. Things do go in cycles.

1673
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:55,600
Speaker 3: And also monoculture is real, it happens, happened before, it

1674
01:17:56,080 --> 01:17:59,680
Speaker 3: happens now, and I think that just I get a

1675
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:03,200
Speaker 3: look of people who listen and they're like, ah, what

1676
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:05,720
Speaker 3: can I do to change things? And what can I is?

1677
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:08,320
Speaker 3: Everything is it. Don't be a doomer about this.

1678
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:10,679
Speaker 2: There's no need to be the best thing I think

1679
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:12,880
Speaker 2: anyone can do right now is when they find something

1680
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 2: cool and unique to share it. I know it's so

1681
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:18,560
Speaker 2: fucking boring, but like, one of the best things you

1682
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 2: could do is if you find someone who says something

1683
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:22,400
Speaker 2: very funny, who has like thirty followers, please share that,

1684
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:25,519
Speaker 2: Please share it with everyone, because that is where the

1685
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:28,400
Speaker 2: old magic of the internet was. One of my famous

1686
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:31,080
Speaker 2: I think I might have mentioned it before. The thing

1687
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 2: I am most nostalgic for on the Internet is connection.

1688
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:36,240
Speaker 2: And my favorite one of these is this a guy

1689
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 2: called Thomas Bolvin. He is a French engineer of some sort. Thomas,

1690
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 2: I've done you for decades. They still don't know what

1691
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 2: you do for a living. It's also a gifted mash

1692
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:46,519
Speaker 2: up artist, and he has done some of the most

1693
01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 2: insane things I've ever heard in my life. He did

1694
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 2: a Kanye we I know, Kanye West fucking sucks.

1695
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:51,200
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

1696
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 2: Kane of the Stone Age is one of the best

1697
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 2: albums of all time. It's insanely good. He did a

1698
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:59,559
Speaker 2: LP run the Jewels album. He has done so many

1699
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 2: weird things. I found him by accident. He doesn't have

1700
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:06,639
Speaker 2: a huge following potem totom on Twitter, and this guy

1701
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:08,800
Speaker 2: is just digging away. I've known he made a mash

1702
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:11,080
Speaker 2: up that I played at my brother's wedding, and I

1703
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 2: only found him by accident. It's one of the best

1704
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:16,960
Speaker 2: things that's happened to me. And the Internet tons of

1705
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 2: people have stories like this. I think that that really

1706
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 2: is what we're nostalgic for. It's not the big folks monoculture,

1707
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 2: which I think we all enjoy. We like the populace.

1708
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:27,519
Speaker 4: It's that there's a weird guy running a website about

1709
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 4: a thing he's obsessed with, and it feels like he's

1710
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 4: your friend and you're supporting him. My favorite right now,

1711
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,559
Speaker 4: there's a guy on TikTok who has this like comedy

1712
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:37,720
Speaker 4: thing he does called walk News where it's like a

1713
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 4: news show, but it's in just it's like the style

1714
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:43,200
Speaker 4: of TV news, but it's about what the walk that

1715
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 4: he just took this morning, so he like sees a

1716
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 4: weird you know, like stick that looks like a duck

1717
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 4: or something. But I mean, this is what I've been

1718
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:53,160
Speaker 4: telling people is if you're worried about the health of

1719
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:56,280
Speaker 4: the open web, if you want to support people who

1720
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:02,599
Speaker 4: aren't you know, a gigantic multinational corporation, engage with them

1721
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 4: on the platforms, like their stuff, share their stuff. But

1722
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:07,759
Speaker 4: I think even more importantly is find people on the platforms,

1723
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 4: because that's where we find everything, and then follow them off.

1724
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 4: Sign up for people's newsletters, go to their websites, give

1725
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:16,360
Speaker 4: them two dollars a month on patritter image you want,

1726
01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:17,479
Speaker 4: give them your email.

1727
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 3: Right, That's it.

1728
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:23,200
Speaker 4: It's building a connection with people that those creators and

1729
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 4: publishers and artists control, that they can operate on their

1730
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:30,200
Speaker 4: own terms instead of just doing whatever the algorithm wants.

1731
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 1: Today, if we can.

1732
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 4: Go back a little bit to a world where we're

1733
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 4: supporting individual people and connecting with them one on one,

1734
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:39,559
Speaker 4: I think that does a lot for the health of

1735
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:40,880
Speaker 4: the Internet. And you know, I don't want to be

1736
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:43,320
Speaker 4: a Pollyanna about this, like that's not going to counteract

1737
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 4: the power of Google dot Com. But I also think

1738
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 4: we're kind of going in that direction already. I think

1739
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:52,240
Speaker 4: people have realized that this is what they want, and

1740
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:55,400
Speaker 4: they're going out and finding people and building a connection

1741
01:20:55,479 --> 01:20:58,600
Speaker 4: with them that maybe kind of disappeared completely for a

1742
01:20:58,640 --> 01:20:59,080
Speaker 4: couple of years.

1743
01:20:59,120 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 1: It was only on the place.

1744
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 3: And that's the thing.

1745
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:03,640
Speaker 2: Like two others I'm gonna I just I love I

1746
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:05,560
Speaker 2: actually think it's cool to highlight these people. One is

1747
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:09,040
Speaker 2: real Dan Yang on Instagram. His new thing he does

1748
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,360
Speaker 2: is he does like sports breakdowns, but he does them

1749
01:21:12,400 --> 01:21:14,400
Speaker 2: for very weird things. He did one where it's a

1750
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:17,280
Speaker 2: guy a woman throws a sprite at a guy in

1751
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:20,479
Speaker 2: Miami and the guy elbow drops the window off of

1752
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:23,120
Speaker 2: her car, the mirror off her car, and he's just

1753
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:25,679
Speaker 2: going like, now you look at the classic Corvette elbow

1754
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:27,960
Speaker 2: guy and he does like a play by play breakdown.

1755
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:29,040
Speaker 3: It's fucking hilarious.

1756
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 2: Dan Yang is actually one of the most gifted comedians,

1757
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 2: and Instagram's actually good finding comedy. But the way he

1758
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 2: does this dead pan stuff is so marvelous, and every

1759
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:38,599
Speaker 2: time I see his shit, I feel like just so

1760
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:41,240
Speaker 2: happy because it's like this is what I miss. But

1761
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:43,599
Speaker 2: the other one, and probably one of my favorites ever,

1762
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:47,120
Speaker 2: is a woman called Vicka vk goes Wild on YouTube.

1763
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:50,479
Speaker 2: She is one of the most gifted pianists I've ever seen.

1764
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,880
Speaker 2: I mean like insant, like she plays redmannon off and

1765
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:57,640
Speaker 2: the way her hands move is not human. What she

1766
01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:00,840
Speaker 2: does is she does extremely intricate covers of metal and rock.

1767
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,080
Speaker 2: She did a cover of a Queens of the Stone

1768
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:06,360
Speaker 2: a song called Unreborn Again, which is a real deep

1769
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 2: cart holding your heart by what royal Blood, but also

1770
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 2: that black Hole sign she hay Man nice shop, and

1771
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:18,679
Speaker 2: the way she keeps time with her hands is genuinely insane.

1772
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:21,160
Speaker 2: Like watching it, you're like, I don't think my fingers

1773
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:24,360
Speaker 2: can do that on one hand in any time signature

1774
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:27,559
Speaker 2: close to this, and she has a Patreon sadly Patreon

1775
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 2: a kind of evil, but give her money.

1776
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:33,240
Speaker 3: But also, and to really wrap this up, it's this

1777
01:22:33,280 --> 01:22:34,400
Speaker 3: shit is still happening.

1778
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:36,639
Speaker 2: It's very easy to look at everything in a monolith

1779
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:39,840
Speaker 2: and say, oh, well, all the Internet is is just people.

1780
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:43,439
Speaker 2: Dearnet's messing with the algorithm, and I just don't think

1781
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:47,040
Speaker 2: that's productive. And I know, yeah, these small things won't

1782
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 2: change things, but we've got a lot of listeners now.

1783
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:52,759
Speaker 2: The best thing any of you can do while listening

1784
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:55,880
Speaker 2: is when you find this weird little thing something like this,

1785
01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:58,400
Speaker 2: share it, share it, aggressively, send it to your friends,

1786
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:01,719
Speaker 2: because this is actually what you're missing. What you're missing

1787
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 2: is not so much a pure Internet, because it's not

1788
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:07,720
Speaker 2: been pure for a while now. It's that it's not

1789
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,559
Speaker 2: as easy, or at least the sources aren't as loud

1790
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:15,040
Speaker 2: toward things like this. The dominant culture of the dominant

1791
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:19,760
Speaker 2: noise is very big, very obviously popular things like the

1792
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:21,799
Speaker 2: most popular song is the most popular song.

1793
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 3: Because the Spotify algorith blah blah blah blah blah, and

1794
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:27,360
Speaker 3: these breakout hits aren't really breakout hits on a qualitative level.

1795
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:30,600
Speaker 3: Their breakout hits because the algorithm decided to show it

1796
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:32,439
Speaker 3: to a lot of people and it was popular enough

1797
01:23:32,479 --> 01:23:34,160
Speaker 3: to take off. And yeah, there's a situation where it

1798
01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:37,160
Speaker 3: would have been popular anyway. But I don't know. I

1799
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 3: think that the best thing you can do is find

1800
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:41,439
Speaker 3: your weirdos, Find your weirdos, share your weirdos, post them

1801
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:44,200
Speaker 3: on the Better off Line Reddit. Ask that's better off line.

1802
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:46,600
Speaker 3: I want to do the find your weirdo's thread. I

1803
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:49,400
Speaker 3: want to know because that's the thing. The Better off

1804
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:52,080
Speaker 3: Line Reddit has been amazing because it's just real people

1805
01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:55,599
Speaker 3: mostly talking about stealing stuff. The whole joke about people

1806
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:59,040
Speaker 3: stealing stuff, catlet converters and everything from a few episodes

1807
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:01,280
Speaker 3: ago that has taken off. Yeah, and the worry I

1808
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:03,000
Speaker 3: have is the book coming out and they're just gonna

1809
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 3: steal it.

1810
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:06,320
Speaker 2: But that's a different problem. But what's magical about it

1811
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:09,040
Speaker 2: is it's real people dicking around and they allow that,

1812
01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 2: the real ones.

1813
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:14,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really hopeful about the state of the web,

1814
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:17,840
Speaker 4: right and it's you know, maybe again it sounds like,

1815
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:21,000
Speaker 4: you know, I'm wearing rose colored glasses. But the fact

1816
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:24,600
Speaker 4: that if you agree that these things are problems, the

1817
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:28,360
Speaker 4: fact that it bothers us so much as Internet users

1818
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:32,720
Speaker 4: is a very positive thing. Right Because Lily Ray, the

1819
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:34,599
Speaker 4: SEO expert, said to me a couple of weeks ago.

1820
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:38,360
Speaker 4: She was saying, I can't believe that normies are complaining

1821
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:41,720
Speaker 4: about how search engines work. You know, the fact that

1822
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 4: this bothers us means that there's pressure on the platforms

1823
01:24:47,240 --> 01:24:50,200
Speaker 4: to change. Now, when Google searches a monopoly, there isn't

1824
01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:50,879
Speaker 4: much pressure.

1825
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:55,520
Speaker 1: Maybe that changes. But if you aren't happy.

1826
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:57,960
Speaker 4: With Spotify or with Instagram and you go looking elsewhere,

1827
01:24:58,160 --> 01:25:01,320
Speaker 4: that creates a business oper unity for someone to fill.

1828
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:03,559
Speaker 4: And I think that's where the Internet is going. We're

1829
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:04,600
Speaker 4: going to find.

1830
01:25:04,479 --> 01:25:07,439
Speaker 1: New things that we like, and in some ways the

1831
01:25:07,479 --> 01:25:08,679
Speaker 1: services are going to change.

1832
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:11,000
Speaker 2: I want to read one last thing as we end,

1833
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 2: and this is from Nick cave On Stephen Colbert. Not

1834
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:14,720
Speaker 2: the place that you should get it, he said, and

1835
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:18,440
Speaker 2: I quote. Hopefulness is not a neutral position. It's adversarial.

1836
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:21,599
Speaker 2: It's the warrior emotion that can lay wasteed cynicism. Each

1837
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:23,800
Speaker 2: redemptive or loving act as small as you like, such

1838
01:25:23,800 --> 01:25:26,040
Speaker 2: as reading to your little boy keeps the devil down

1839
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:28,360
Speaker 2: in the hole. And I fucking agree. The thing that

1840
01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 2: you can do as a listener right now is to

1841
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:35,080
Speaker 2: change platforms. Sure, but share the unique things. I'm not

1842
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:36,680
Speaker 2: saying you have to be hipster about it.

1843
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 3: But you find some weird song you find like the

1844
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:41,920
Speaker 3: Demon Cleaner for by Caius, the cover I found from tool.

1845
01:25:42,120 --> 01:25:44,680
Speaker 2: It's fucking cool. That is where the magic of the

1846
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 2: Internet is, and that is where you can find your hope.

1847
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:50,280
Speaker 2: It's there, Thomas, thank you so much for joining. Where

1848
01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:51,040
Speaker 2: can people find you?

1849
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:55,040
Speaker 4: I am on Twitter and TikTok It's at Thomas Jermaine

1850
01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:55,680
Speaker 4: Jermaine's with.

1851
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:57,080
Speaker 3: A G and how do you spell that?

1852
01:25:57,200 --> 01:25:59,719
Speaker 1: It's ger m ai n Yeah, they.

1853
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 2: Make spelled stuff now and you can of course find

1854
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:06,360
Speaker 2: me at Google dot com and I'm on Twitter. All

1855
01:26:06,400 --> 01:26:08,720
Speaker 2: the things are gonna come afterwards, but thank you so

1856
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 2: much for joining me. Thomas and Daniel. Thank you my

1857
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:14,160
Speaker 2: wonderful producer in studio, Daniel Goodman. Thank you so much

1858
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:17,360
Speaker 2: for listening everyone, and I guess I can say it here.

1859
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:20,360
Speaker 2: Even though the season two doesn't start, we have been renewed.

1860
01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:23,000
Speaker 2: If they couldn't keep me down. Thank you so much

1861
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:26,280
Speaker 2: to everyone for listening. And I'm so grateful.

1862
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:28,160
Speaker 3: To be doing this every week. I can't believe tolerate me.

1863
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:30,400
Speaker 3: I love you all. To quote the end of the menu,

1864
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:40,320
Speaker 3: thank you so much for listening. Thank you for listening

1865
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:41,320
Speaker 3: to Better Offline.

1866
01:26:41,439 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 2: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song

1867
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:46,599
Speaker 2: is Metasowski. You can check out more of his music

1868
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:49,840
Speaker 2: and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M.

1869
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 3: A T T O S O W s ki dot com.

1870
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:56,960
Speaker 2: You can email me at easy at better offline dot

1871
01:26:56,960 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 2: com or visit better offline dot com to find more

1872
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:02,599
Speaker 2: podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really

1873
01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:04,960
Speaker 2: recommend you go to chat dot Where's Youread dot at

1874
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:07,520
Speaker 2: to visit the discord, and go to our slash.

1875
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:10,280
Speaker 3: Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so

1876
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:13,800
Speaker 3: much for listening. Better Offline is a production of cool

1877
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:16,680
Speaker 3: Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our

1878
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:19,720
Speaker 3: website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on

1879
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:23,600
Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.