1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network, brought to 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: you by Interstate Batteries. Interstate Batteries was the first supporter 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: of the Sportsman's Nation. I've gotten to know some of 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: the people who work for that organization very well. It's 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: an awesome company. They make awesome products and they have 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: thousands of retail locations all over the United States. So 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: if you need help finding a specific battery, whether it's 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: for your truck, whether it's for your trail camera, a 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: remote control or range finder, anything in between, stop into 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: a local Interstate Batteries retail store, talk with a specialist, 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: and they're gonna help you out. Interstate Batteries outrageously dependable. 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the host of the 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be your host into 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: the world of hunting the icon in the North American Wilderness. Prepare. 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation. Who will also bring 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: you into some of the wildest country on the planet 17 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: chasing thing. On this podcast, Jonathan Wilkins of Black Revival 18 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: and myself have a discussion about the history of African 19 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: American hunting in the South but more importantly, we discussed 20 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: the issues that have led to low participation of African 21 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: Americans in modern hunting. The discussion flows into racism, its roots, 22 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: the roots of racism and modern hunting, and Jonathan gives 23 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: some insightful commentary, as is his usual thing he does 24 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: on race issues in general. Our discussion is framed around 25 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: a book called Hunting and Fishing in the New South 26 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: by Scott Giltner, and it's an incredible book and we 27 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: kind of use the book as a as a scaffoling 28 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: around the conversation. I uh, I'm really looking forward to 29 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: to you guys here in my conversation with Jonathan Wilkins. 30 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 1: W Hunting Supply is a hound supply company based out 31 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: of Washington. Family owned. It's run by hounds men and 32 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: hounds women. 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My whole life smells like 39 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: gold rush for about a month from late August through 40 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: the end of September when we're biton bears several times 41 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: per week in Arkansas, and check out Northwoods Bear Products. 42 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: If you're baton bears, it does not make a lick 43 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: of sense to not use commercial sense in Northwoods Bear 44 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: Products are the best on the market. We've been using 45 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: them for years and they have tremendous drawing power bringing 46 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: more bears into your bait, which means more opportunity. And 47 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: check out our buddies and their products at Northwoods Bear 48 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: Products and the Western Bear Foundation. These guys are fighting 49 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: the good fight out West, standing up for the rights 50 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: of bears. Yep, sportsman hunters, we actually are the good 51 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: guys that love wildlife and want to see wildlife thrive. 52 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: The Western Bear Foundation also stands up for the rights 53 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: of hunters and for the North American mile of wildlife 54 00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: conservation that has caused the most beautiful, an abundant, and 55 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: wonderful act of animal husbandry in modern times to happen 56 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: on this continent. Wester Bear Foundation, they're speaking up for 57 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: the sportsman. That's what I'm trying to say. These are 58 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: our partners and we value what they're doing. You're gonna 59 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: enjoy this podcast with my friend Jonathan Wilkins Black Duck Rev. 60 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: You know, I think as we as we start a 61 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: conversation like this, Jonathan, I learned a phrase the other 62 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: day called the principle of charity. Have you ever heard 63 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: the principle of charity? I don't think so. So the 64 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: principle of charity is basically inside of communication, and this 65 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: would be widespread communication. The most effective communication is when 66 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: the listener listens to the person that's communicating from a 67 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: position of their best, the best possible scenario of what's said. 68 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: And I heard this in a book, a really interesting 69 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: book book on Table was listening to and he's this 70 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: guy was saying that that's the reason why, like the 71 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: media right now is so untrustworthy on every side, is 72 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: because people take something that's said and they they take 73 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: it to its worst possible extreme and then they use 74 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: it against that person both sides, princes and so the 75 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: idea of the principle of charity is that when somebody 76 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: says something you you take kind of like their best, 77 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: the best, you give them some charity essentially, you know. 78 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: And and as I as we talk about race relations, 79 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: as we talk about stuff that's pretty sensitive. You know. 80 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: That's what I'm asking our listeners to give me and 81 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: you is the Prince Bullet charity, really like, because I 82 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: know that I you could probably take a sound bite 83 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: out of something anything. I mean, you could go back 84 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: to something I said some other time and take a 85 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: sound bite totally out of context in the worst possible 86 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: light that that communication, those words could describe and make 87 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: me out to be some kind of whatever. And you know, 88 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: me and you were both being kind of vulnerable and 89 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: we said that even as we discussed this podcast, but 90 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: it was something that was important to both of us 91 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: to talk about. And I think you've got something to 92 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: say and I have a lot of respect for you 93 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: and UH. And so I was thinking about that as 94 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: I as I was like, man, we do a podcast 95 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: on race and UH and race relations. And here's the 96 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: deal is that I don't know the right way always 97 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: to say stuff. Even even in our relatively short conversations 98 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: we've had coming into this, I've learned some stuff that 99 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: I didn't know, you know, And so I think that's 100 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: that's important. And I'm saying that to the listener, is 101 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, give us some charity, and um, you know, 102 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: the next question that I have is, you know, why 103 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: would we Jonathan. I've always kind of been of the 104 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: mind that, you know, inside of media, like we're I'm 105 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: a bear hunter, and so stick with bear hunting, you know, 106 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: kind of stick inside of these of of your your target. 107 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: And but the deeper that I've got into media and 108 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: the more that media has changed for me, not to 109 00:07:54,280 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: address certain topics almost feels, you know, feels coward or 110 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: feels like I'm dodging something. And I mean, you know, 111 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: you've heard the podcast that we've done about family and 112 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: about values and bringing you know, raising up children and 113 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: and building family culture and stuff like, it's like that 114 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: doesn't have anything to do with bear hunting. Tell me 115 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: how to kill a bear? Well, you know, the cool 116 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: thing about media these days is is that we have 117 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: so many platforms for communication. We've got the leverage to 118 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: talk about what we want to talk about that we 119 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: feel like it's relevant. And the reason it's relevant, And 120 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: here's the reason it's relevant. It's relevant because we're humans, 121 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, it's relevant. It's relevant to talk 122 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: about this because you're my friend, Jonathan, and you have 123 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: a very different life experience than I've had and I 124 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: know that I don't understand it all. And I've had 125 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: a life experience that you haven't had that you may 126 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: not fully understand. And uh, but the cool thing is 127 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: is that you know, I I think hunt, you know, 128 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: essentially when I like boiled down hunting, like a lot 129 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: of times, I view it to the romantic lens of 130 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: this is a primitive human action, you know, it's something 131 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: that's like primitively like essentially human, and getting along learning 132 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: how to get along with other humans is essentially human too. 133 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: And uh. Now, so my guest is Jonathan Wilkins. Uh. John, 134 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: you've been on this podcast two times before, right, Jonathan? Yeah. Um, 135 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: but man, you sent me a book. Um, you sent 136 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: me a book that I read, and it's called Hunting 137 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: Fishing in the New South. Uh Black Labor, White Leisure 138 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: after the Civil or fascinating book. How did you hear 139 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 1: about this book? Uh? Man, I was just uh, I 140 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: think I just did a Google search, you know, trying 141 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: to find some just some history of African American hunting, 142 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: uh in the United States and the I mean there's 143 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: a want of research on it. There's probably two books. 144 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: There's that book and there's another text um written by 145 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: a guy. Uh. The other text is written by a 146 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: guy who actually went to college here in Central Arkansas 147 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: and at hindricks Um. But yeah, man, I just kind 148 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: of found it like that, ordered it, read it, was 149 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: super fascinated with it, and uh, I ended up doing 150 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: a little interview with the author, Scotty Giltner, and and 151 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: I've been kind of trying to disseminate it to, you know, 152 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 1: anybody who I thought would take the time to read 153 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: it and could get something out of it, because I 154 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: thought it was a a pretty thought provoking and eye 155 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: opening book. So I want to talk about the book some, 156 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: but like a part part of what you do and 157 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: in like a passion of yours, would you say that 158 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: that is introducing African Americans back into hunting? Is that? 159 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: How would you how it described to me like kind 160 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: of your just kind of your core inside of that 161 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: m hm. So I mean part of it would be, 162 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: you know, like in the in the brand name Black 163 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: Duck Revival, like we've talked about before, that's a that's 164 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: a reference to this old church that I bought and 165 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: you know, reconditioned, but it's it's also an idea that's 166 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: important to me this this kind of resurgence or this 167 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: bringing back or this revival of this idea of self 168 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: sustainability and being able to take care of yourself. And 169 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: I think that's particularly important. Uh. You know, the people 170 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: in one might be referred to as marginalized communities. Uh, 171 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: especially communities that you know, like African Americans were once 172 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: almost entirely a rule population, you know, um, working in 173 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: agricultural labor. You know, even after I'm saying working not 174 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: being forced to, but like working in agriculture, even after 175 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 1: the Civil War. Uh, and that's no longer the case. 176 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: You know, most Black people in America live in urban environments. Uh. 177 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: You know, there's a large disconnect I feel like in 178 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: a lot of ways with the natural world, with agriculture. 179 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a we could talk for two two 180 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: days about why those reasons are. But uh, you know, 181 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: I think often we don't think about it. But you 182 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: know that the people who when you hear people talk 183 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: to say, you know, black people built this country, like 184 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: the White House was built with slave labor. The great 185 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: artisans of the eighteen hundreds, many of them were enslaved people. 186 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: The great chefs of the eighteen hundreds. You know, French 187 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: classically trained chefs were often enslaved people. Um, the people 188 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: who worked in you know, the Turpentine forest of the South, 189 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: the people who cleared the swamps oftentimes were enslaved people. 190 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: And then the people who tilled and worked that land 191 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: were enslaved. And then afterwards, you know, a continuation of 192 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: that bondage, you know, while maybe not officially owned, you know, uh, 193 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: stunted and their ability to to limit, uh, to reach 194 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: their full human potential. So this idea of working with 195 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: your hands and and working the earth and agricultural and 196 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: hunting and fishing, these are things that you know today. 197 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: I think it's often a misnomer that we don't associate 198 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: that with African Americans, uh, but it's something that we 199 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: have a I'm this country was built on the labor 200 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: and the the ability for of black people to do 201 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: and to make and to connect with the world around him. Uh, 202 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: and you know, and that that works uh into all 203 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: all manner of ideas about things. You know, like oftentimes 204 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: I think that you know, Asian Americans aren't thought of 205 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: as I guess having like some sort of physical prowess, 206 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, But I mean you think about like who 207 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: was building the railroads across this country, you know, think 208 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: about uh, the great feats of architecture from thousands of 209 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: years ago, you know. And it's I think a lot 210 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: of these ideas are more based around who's telling the 211 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: narrative and how that narrative serves some people and some 212 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: people's interests and doesn't two uh, doesn't serve adequately or 213 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: appropriately some other people. Well what I man, you know, 214 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: there's what you just said about African Americans being so 215 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: connected rurally for such a long time. It's almost been 216 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: like erace from the culture in a lot of in 217 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. I heard a stat today that 218 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: there's three hundred thousand African Americans that hunt in the 219 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: US today, three thousands of like eleven million hunters, so 220 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: less than less than one and ten. Does that start 221 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: ring with you? I mean I heard that from a 222 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: seventeen I believe that if you took that nationally now, 223 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: I'd say the I would almost have I would hazard 224 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: to guess that the bulk of black hunters are in 225 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: the South. Uh. But yeah, I bet if you you know, 226 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: if you look at the centers of African American life 227 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: in this country, Uh, they're gonna be mostly in coastal 228 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: or northern cities, you know that. And these these are 229 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: population remnants of the Great Migration, you know, people leaving uh, 230 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: structural racism and and you know, physical violence in the South, 231 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: which moved and then moved to the industrial cities of 232 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: the North because you know, you you also had a 233 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: you had an economic shift out of agriculture into production, 234 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: and those production centers were in the North. So you 235 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: had these waves of people moving to you know, uh St. Louis, 236 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: like my my dad's famous originally from Kio, Arkansas. That's 237 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: about thirty miles away from here. But you know, I'm 238 00:16:53,840 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: from St. Louis, uh Indian Indianapolis, Detroit, uh, Minneapolis, Baltimore. 239 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: You know, these are these were big industrial Boston, big 240 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: industrial cities that black people moved up to. Uh yeah. 241 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: And and it shows you kind of how short our 242 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: collective memory is, because you know, just colloquially, you start 243 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: to think that you know that I don't know that 244 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: maybe there's something inherent in blackness that uh, that is 245 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: disassociative with the natural world. And if you just look 246 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: back a little bit further, or you just you drive 247 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: around like the state that we live in. Like, you know, 248 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: you live in a part of the state where there's 249 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: not very many African Americans. If you drove over to 250 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: the opposite side of the state, you would see black 251 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: people everywhere. You would see the whole towns. I mean, 252 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: now small, you'd see small towns. But like Cotton Plant, 253 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: which is about ten miles from Brinkley, Like it's probably 254 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: almost entirely African American and that's all remnants of Yeah, 255 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: that's agricultural populations where people lived, um and you know, 256 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: and it's like you probably most people wouldn't think of 257 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: black farmers, but across the delta, across the South, there 258 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: are black farmers there, you know, multi generational black farmers. 259 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: Uh so yeah, I don't know. Man, the rich what 260 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: I was shocked at, Jonathan inside of this book and 261 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 1: the first chapter, it's like, I mean, just is if 262 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: somebody could just even just read the first chapter of 263 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: this book, the rich history of hunting that was built 264 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: upon kind of this plantation model. If I don't know 265 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: another way to say it, but like the black people 266 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: were in charge of there was a lot of hound hunting, 267 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: a lot of dog hunting. They were running deer they 268 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: were running rabbits, they were well and so the a 269 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 1: lot of the black guys were the hound handlers, and 270 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: a lot of them were master houndsman fast. I mean 271 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: that blows my mind. I mean that continues today. Like 272 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: if you go, uh, you know, we're in the western 273 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: as far west as you can go and still be 274 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: in the South. But if you go like towards more 275 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: of the deep South where you have these like like 276 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: very strong and and they're still there like quail hunting 277 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: heritages and like especially on those plantations with those like 278 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: big huge road trees. Uh. Many many, many of the 279 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: great dog handlers and pointer trainers have been black. Uh. 280 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: And I mean that still continues today. I saw it, man, 281 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: I saw something that was really cool. It was a 282 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: it was some like field trials like bird dog trials 283 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: for pointers, I want to say in Georgia, and it 284 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: was star it in the mid eighties and it was 285 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: basically started because uh, you know, some good old boys 286 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't let some black houndsmen in turn into their field trials, 287 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: and so they're like, well, we'll start our own. Man. 288 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: It was like a hundred and fifty black guys all 289 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: on horseback. You know, with these pointers and these spaniels, 290 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: uh like riding through these big old plantations, you know, 291 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: having their dogs uh find copies and uh man it 292 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: was it was really cool to see and it was 293 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: a really powerful thing to see. Um and yeah, man 294 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: it it it. I think it goes to who's telling 295 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: the story, who's writing the books, who's getting the publicity. 296 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: It's not oftentimes not the people that are that are 297 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: integral to it, you know. Well the other thing and 298 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: I want to I am. I am relaying information here 299 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: that really I I just have learned and this book 300 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: is fresh on my mind because I read it last week. 301 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: It's been a while since you've read it. I think 302 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: it has been maybe a little yeah yeah. But so 303 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: so here is what this guy like really laid out 304 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: is that there were the black GUIDs. There were a 305 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: lot of black guides like and so part of this 306 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: this hunting culture was that these you know, the wealthy 307 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: guys would go out and hunt and they would have 308 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: black guys that would guide them. So but there was 309 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: what they called black game where there were certain species 310 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: that they would allow the black people to hunt on 311 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: their own. Do you remember that? And in part of it, 312 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: part one of them was raccoons and possums, and so 313 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: these guys would have coon dogs. We're we're we're talking 314 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: specifically during slavery, well or even after you're talking about 315 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: Well it started and yes, I'm talking inside of slavery, 316 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: and then but then it kind of continued for a 317 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: while after that just because of who who was kind 318 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: of well, I want to the reason I wanted to 319 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: clarify because I want to make the distinction. It's, uh, 320 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: it's not it wasn't so much that you know this, Uh, 321 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: like magnanimous masters were allowing uh, these folks to go 322 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: out and hunt. I mean like oftentimes it was a 323 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: way like they didn't want to eat raccoons and possums, 324 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: and they would allow slaves to go out and treat 325 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: them and catch them and supplement the pot so just 326 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: as a financial decision, so they didn't have to pay 327 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: as much to feed their slaves. Uh. And what's interesting 328 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: about that is that that's really when you really look 329 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: at that that you want to talk about dehumanizing, you know, 330 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: like I want to save every dollar I can, and 331 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: so I'm gonna send you out at night to go 332 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: get what I consider essentially vermin to feed your wives 333 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: and children, so it doesn't cost me as much because 334 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: this is all about the bottom line. But it also 335 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: shows you know, if you want to talk about resiliency 336 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: and being able to affirm your humanity in the face 337 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: of barbarity, you know, this was a this was a 338 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: small little place where or an aspect of life where 339 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: these people who were in bondage, who were enslaved, who 340 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: were not recognized that human beings, uh, could find some 341 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: mastery and some small control over their own lives and 342 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: take pride in what they were doing, in their expertise 343 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: and their prowess um. And you know, like we I 344 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: think maybe the first podcast we did, we talked about 345 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: how validating it was uh for me, like when my wife, uh, 346 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: you know, it was proud of me that I brought 347 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: a deer home, you know, into and when when you're 348 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: bringing home sustenance, you know, inside of a system where 349 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: you can't protect your wife, you can't protect your children. Uh. 350 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: It's it's the kind of we were talking about earlier. Man, 351 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: Like it makes hunting a raccoon incredibly noble. Well, listen 352 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: to this. There here's a quote that I want to 353 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: read from this book. I think I sent you this. Man, 354 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: I've sent this quote to several people and people have 355 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: just been like, wow, it's powerful. So here here it goes. 356 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: Jay Vance Lewis, born a slave in Louisiana, noted this 357 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: dual importance. He said, the slave loves his dog. He wrote, 358 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: They're constant companions. He talks with him by day and 359 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,479 Speaker 1: hunts with him by night. His dog is the only 360 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: thing under the sun that he can call his own 361 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: for the master, claims the woman that has called his 362 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: wife his offspring, his hut, his pig, his own body, 363 00:24:52,920 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: his very soul. It's heavy stuff, man. You you see, 364 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: you see how something that seems insignificant, like a coon 365 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: hunt or a coon dog becomes like this one place 366 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: that culture is built around, and that you know, where 367 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: these people were able to um they were connected to 368 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,239 Speaker 1: the land. It's, man, it's something I actually identify with. 369 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: You know, I've I have thought often. You know, there's 370 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: many reasons why I was drawn to hunting and you know, 371 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: this this lifestyle. But man, you know, I think one 372 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: of the reasons is because and you know this is 373 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: kind of this is uncomfortable. I think for a lot 374 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: of people to hear. But you know, uh, when you 375 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: are a a you know, a black person, a black man, 376 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: or he perceived as such. You know, however it might 377 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: work out, there is a there is a constant awareness 378 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: of how you're being perceived that you have to you 379 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 1: have to maintain, uh, you know, in business dealings, in 380 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: the store, just out in the world. And it really 381 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: is it's exhausting in a way. That's I think it's 382 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: difficult for someone who doesn't experience it to understand. And 383 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: there is a you know, the natural world in the 384 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: wild and especially oftentimes you know, the way that I 385 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: like to hunt by myself, deepen stuff, really immersing myself 386 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: in it. It's an opportunity to not have that. It's 387 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: an opportunity to it's you know, it's a way for 388 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: me to enter a meritocracy of my own choosing. And 389 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:59,239 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's you know, it's revitalizing and restorative and 390 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: validating in ways that I think I'm often you know, 391 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: I'm not fully perceiving at the time. Um, and so 392 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: I do kind of connect with that idea, you know. 393 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about generations removed. But and I 394 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: have you know, I can't really comprehend the barbarity that 395 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: someone who lived in Arkansas two years ago that looked 396 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 1: like me might have experienced. But I can I understand 397 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: what it's like to have to be aware that of 398 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: how I'm perceived all the time. And it, uh, it's 399 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: it's an odd thing to think about that there is 400 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: such humanity and what is often you know, the snuffing 401 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: out of sentient life, and it's it's such a strange 402 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: duality to it. But I I do think, and I 403 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: think it's one of the reasons why it's important to 404 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: have this conversation in this space, in this world of 405 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: hunting because and you know, we talked about it, but 406 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: four and I've even puts up on Instagram about it, 407 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: Like I'm never not aware of that, you know. Uh, 408 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: there's never a place even when I'm able to kind 409 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: of breathe, I'm when I'm coming out of the woods, 410 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: you know, I'm aware of it. Uh, when I'm driving 411 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: to the woods, when I'm leaving, you know, uh, blood 412 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: on my tailgate, you know, like being armed, all these 413 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: things who I might encounter, like I'm aware of I'm 414 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: aware of this constantly, and so it it inundates and 415 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: it percolates through every aspect of my life, you know. 416 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: And and so that's why that's why I think it's 417 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: appropriate to talk about it with you know, with the 418 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: understanding that you know, these are oftentimes these are taxing conversations. Uh. 419 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: But you know, we've also talked about that that's where 420 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: growth comes from. Growth comes from struggle, Growth comes from discomfort, 421 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: and that's personal growth, and that societal growth, and that's 422 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: you know, something that you love, growing to become more 423 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 1: inclusive and more representative and more honest with itself. Uh. 424 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: And and so I, like I said, I do want 425 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that you know, you know, for some of 426 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: your listening listenership man, you know, this might be difficult 427 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: or even kind of off putting. Uh, But I I 428 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: really do think if you look at hunting as kind 429 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: of a conduit through which we can more fully explore 430 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: our humanity, that it maybe it takes a little bit 431 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: of the bitterness out of it, and it uh, it 432 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: makes it a little bit easier to to hear somebody 433 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: who's coming from a different person. You know. I think 434 00:29:54,040 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: that the the essential foundational point at it's humans need 435 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: to interact with each other well in any kind of 436 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: relationship empathy, empathy. I mean, like you know, talking about 437 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: talking about slavery. Slavery in eighteen sixty five, it was 438 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: when the emancipation was that. Here here's the Here's the 439 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: point that people make is that you know, heck, that 440 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: was a hundred and sixty years ago. Here's my point. 441 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: He said that it wasn't very long ago. Might think 442 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: about this. My grandfather was born I think in nineteen eighteen. 443 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: He's passed away now. He lived to be ninety four. 444 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: He was very influential man in my life. I mean 445 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: like very influential, like we did all kinds of stuff together, 446 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, influential man. He would have been alive when 447 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: former slaves were alive, Sure he would have. I did 448 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: the math on the way down here because I've I've 449 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: thought about that analogy before, but I actually did it. 450 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: I mean, a young a young child that was ten, twelve, 451 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: fifteen years old in eighteen sixty five, you know, in 452 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: nineteen eighteen, I mean would have been they would have 453 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: been older. But I mean like he would have been 454 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: on the earth at the same time that there were 455 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: humans alive that were enslaved. And you think about how 456 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: because see I mean people say, I will it's not 457 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: my problem. We didn't do that. It wasn't me, you know, 458 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: And I mean there's holes all inside of that. There's 459 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: also that's a tough one though, because you know, and 460 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: I'm going back to this idea of empathy, Jonathan, is 461 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: that you know, not that why guy that lives across 462 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: the street over there, he did not own a slave. 463 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: He's not the one that did it. But we very 464 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: much so live in the wake of that oppression. Yeah, 465 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: that's a good man. We live in in We live 466 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: in the way. And and I think that's a notable 467 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: thing to just acknowledge. And some people have a hard 468 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: time acknowledging that. But uh, and I think if your 469 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: first posture is defensiveness, you know, and I'm talking, I'm 470 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: talking to myself. If my first posture is defensiveness. When 471 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: I hear somebody talk about, you know, something that happened 472 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: a long time ago, that quote unquote I didn't have 473 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: anything to do with, which is true. I didn't choose 474 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: to be a white guy. I was put in this 475 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: body just like you were put in yours. So it's like, 476 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: but at the same time, I've got to be empathetic. 477 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of being human. That's what separates 478 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: us from beasts. A wolf is not empathetic to anyone 479 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: a human. The reason this place works and has worked 480 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: as long as it has and it's breaking down now, 481 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: it's because people don't have empathy. It cost me nothing 482 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: to be able to tip my hat and say, man, 483 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: I get it, Jonathan, I I and I know that 484 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: I don't get it, but it's it's that doesn't hurt 485 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,719 Speaker 1: me to say, Man, we live in the wake of 486 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: those systems, and I mean we could talk about systemic 487 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: racism and stuff that would blow most people's minds. A 488 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: lot of people are aware of it, you know. I 489 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: mean like schools and incarceration rates and arrests and convictions 490 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: and all this stuff. You know. I mean, like we 491 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: could talk about all that, but like we live inside 492 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: the wake of it. And I think part of the 493 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: reason I wanted to have this conversation was just too just. 494 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: I think some people for some reason have feel like 495 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: they're they have they have hard time acknowledging that. I 496 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: don't have any problem acknowledging that. Well, man, I'm starting interrupting, man, 497 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: but I'll tell you something because so you bring up 498 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: you've brought up Gary Newcomb anytimes? How old Gary Newcomb? 499 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: Gary Newcomb seventy two. My father's name is Hiram Wilkins 500 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: and he's seventy six. And uh, my dad, when my 501 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: dad was born, he was born into legalized segregation. Right, 502 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: my dad would have been as well. Yeah, it's it's 503 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: and it's such a crazy thing to think about. I mean, 504 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: so think about this when I when I was born, 505 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: it was only legal for me to exist, for my 506 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: parents to be married for about thirty years. Bizarre, you know. 507 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: So we're talking about the wake of things. Uh, I 508 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: think people want to go back to slavery. Hey, and 509 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: just to clarify your mother, my mom's white, my dad's black. Um, 510 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: it was it was a crime for my parents to 511 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: be married and to have children when my father was 512 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: a young man. It was when my father was fighting 513 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: in Vietnam for three years. It was unthinkable that his 514 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: family would look the way that it does. You know, 515 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: I told you a story about my the guy who 516 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 1: my dad's named after, my great uncle, Hiram who's passed away. 517 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: He was from Kio, Arkansas. Uh, one time we were 518 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: visiting him, me and my family and uh my mom, 519 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: we were saying goodbye to him. My mom gave him 520 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: a kiss on the cheek. And my wife, my wife's 521 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: white as well, and she gave him a kiss on 522 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: the cheek. And uh, my uncle Hiram looked like he 523 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: had seen a ghost. And my dad said, what's wrong 524 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: with you? And he my and my great uncle said, 525 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: and I'll never forget this, he said, He said, I 526 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: remember when they would kill you for looking at a 527 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: white woman, he said, in two of them just kissed 528 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: me on the cheek. You're standing there beside inge. I mean, man, 529 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: you want to talk about a powerful statement, um, And 530 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 1: so to think about like we're living concurrently in a 531 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: world with a man who, I mean, it really looked 532 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: like he was afraid something bad was about to happen 533 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 1: to him. And and so all of that living memory 534 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: and all of those influences and all of that history 535 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: and all of that weake, as you describe it, is 536 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: still around. When I'm trying to go kill a black bear, 537 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: you know, or I'm trying to kill ducks, or I'm 538 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 1: trying to go fishing, or I'm just scouting or whatever 539 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: I'm doing, all of that is brought into it as well. 540 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean because I'm aware of that, that 541 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that I'm an inherently fearful person or I'm 542 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:59,439 Speaker 1: an inherently you know, distrustful person. But it does mean that. 543 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: I think it's disingenuous when people say that didn't have 544 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: anything to do with me, because you know, I mean, 545 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: let's go back to where we're at. We're right here 546 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: close to Little Roy. Think about those pictures of the 547 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: Little Rock nine, those pictures of angry people attacking folks, 548 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: screaming at children, hateful vitriolic signs and the things they 549 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: would say and spitting on little girls and all that stuff. 550 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: Little Little Rock nine would have been in the in 551 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 1: the sixties. No, we've been been in uh. I believe 552 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: Brown v. Brown V. Board was yees. So it was. 553 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 1: It was the first nine black students to integrate Arkansas 554 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: public schools. And the people that were saying those things 555 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: and doing those things and fighting it, and the fact 556 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: they had to bring the National Guard in to it 557 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 1: and stuff. You know, they didn't stop thinking that because 558 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: the federal government told them that they had to let 559 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: their kids. What happened is at a bunch of folks moved, 560 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: and uh, school systems changed and whatnot. But those ideas, 561 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: those preconceptions, those ideas about what society was supposed to 562 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: be and was supposed to look like, they didn't disappear. 563 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: And those folks raised people are still they're still around. 564 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: I mean, those folks, those folks had you know, children, 565 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: you know, and those children maybe have been my boss 566 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: or my teachers or and uh. And I think it's important, 567 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: you know, just as wonderful things are passed down in family, 568 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: and just through osmosis with your family, things that are 569 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: not wonderful are passed down and absorbed as well. And 570 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: you know, these ideas about uh, you know, what's important 571 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: to you your family or your heritage or you know, 572 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: and that could be your religion or where you live 573 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: or you know, these traumas and stuff continue as well. 574 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: You know, like the children of the civil rights workers 575 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: who are lynched and burned and maimed in the sixties 576 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: are still around, you know what I mean. They're bringing 577 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: those living memories and those traumas to their experiences and 578 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: to their children. And I feel like for anyone to 579 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 1: get past any of this and to move in a 580 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,959 Speaker 1: direction that I think the vast majority of people would 581 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: want you can't ignore things. It's the same thing you 582 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: know in a relationship with your with your wife, you 583 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: know that not talking about stuff, you know, and I'm 584 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: I'm bad about that. I don't want to talk about stuff. 585 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: I want to ignore it. I want to just not 586 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: talk about it and let it go away. And that 587 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,919 Speaker 1: doesn't work. There's got to be an acknowledgement. There's got 588 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: to be display aid empathy. Uh. It doesn't mean that 589 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: you have uh to villainize yourself, but it's but you know, 590 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: and everyone's reaction whenever you feel that you're attacked or 591 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: you're made to be uncomfortable or something about you is 592 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: being questioned is to be defensive. I mean that's everyone's 593 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: natural inclination. But like you said, the idea of empathy, uh, 594 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: I think the idea of empathy is important and also 595 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: coming to coming to things with with the idea that 596 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: everyone can be redeemed. There's redemption for everybody. But you 597 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:39,839 Speaker 1: cannot get redemption without acknowledgement, you know what I mean. 598 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: That's like you've got to look at look in the 599 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:48,399 Speaker 1: mirror and you've got to think about uh. I think 600 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that being a nice person 601 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: absolves them of wrongdoing. And you know, oftentimes nice, polite 602 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 1: people don't say things, and because they don't say things, 603 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: other people who aren't so nice, are aren't so quiet, 604 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: get to control the conversation, you know. And I mean 605 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: you can take that back to when you were in 606 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: when you were five years old. You know, there was 607 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: a bully, there was a loud kid, there was you know, 608 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: someone who was pushing themselves and everyone going along with 609 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 1: it is what allows that to continue. And the minute 610 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: that appear says, hey man, we're not putting up with that, 611 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: it it puts that, it puts that louder voice, that 612 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:41,439 Speaker 1: more destructive force, It puts them on the outside. And 613 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: and yeah, man, most people want want good things for 614 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: themselves and their family. And maybe you know, even if 615 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: you might not culturally relate to somebody, you can relate 616 00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: to those very innate human ideals and feelings. Uh. And 617 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: they're transcendent, you know, Uh, they really are. And and 618 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,320 Speaker 1: so I think oftentimes, as as human beings, we feel 619 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 1: the need to personally identify with somebody else's pain or 620 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: discomfort to be able to feel empathy. And I think 621 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: it's a real skill, um, to be able to empathize 622 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: with someone that you don't understand, but you're able to 623 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: do it because you understand the human condition. You know. Yeah, man, 624 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: that's good stuff. Golly, I don't even know. I don't 625 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: even have a response, but I do have a quote. 626 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: So I think part of the thing that I see 627 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:53,240 Speaker 1: inside of like the world view that I'm not gonna 628 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: say that I represent because I don't represent it, but 629 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: that is there, um, is that a lot of people 630 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: don't see the issue. They don't they don't see that 631 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: there's an issue. And in part of what I even 632 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: wanted to do was inside of doing this podcast is 633 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,879 Speaker 1: just as an acknowledgement that there's an issue, because there's 634 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: this kind of defensive posture that pops up with people 635 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: and they're like, nah, this is just being blown out 636 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:26,399 Speaker 1: of proportion. And and you know, there's I gotta quote here. 637 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: It says, and I don't even know who said it, 638 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: I just snagged it from somewhere, but it says, the 639 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: problem is the structures of racism are embedded throughout our economy, 640 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: our society, and here it is, much of which is 641 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 1: invisible to us, who are ourselves not disadvantaged, but are 642 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: glaringly evident to those who are. So it's like, without empathy, 643 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:01,879 Speaker 1: without looking beyond just your self, you might look out 644 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: and see, like, what's the problem? You know? I mean, 645 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: I've heard I think one of the biggest things I've 646 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 1: heard people say is this is America. Anybody can go 647 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: do this, Anybody can go to college, Anybody can you know, 648 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: pick themselves up by the bootstraps and work hard and 649 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 1: make something for themselves. And so that is there kind 650 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: of excuse to say there's racism is non issue. I mean, 651 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: I've I've heard black people say that that's pretty much 652 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,240 Speaker 1: what uh. I don't want to put words in Morgan 653 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: Freeman's mouth, but that's pretty much what Morgan Freeman says, 654 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 1: um and uh. And But the stuff is so deeply 655 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: embedded inside of the culture that I think it's it's 656 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: hidden to those who aren't uh, who aren't disadvantaged by 657 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:54,239 Speaker 1: I mean you like hearing you talk like I see it. 658 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: I just kind of can see through your eyes and 659 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: I don't. I just don't have that same experiences. Unless 660 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: I had some reason to some connection point, like I 661 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,439 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe I wouldn't take the time to think 662 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: much about it, you know. I mean, people are usually pretty. 663 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: People are usually just interested in defending their position in 664 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: their life and their lifestyle, and and and here's what 665 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,439 Speaker 1: I want to say too, is that I think there's 666 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,360 Speaker 1: a lot of really good people that aren't quote unquote 667 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: racists that just don't understand. I mean, and and that 668 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: could have been me. And I'm still learning, and I'm 669 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: still growing, and probably reason having this conversation with you 670 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: is I I want to I just think there's something 671 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: essentially human and fundamental about about having an empathetic perspective 672 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: towards people. And uh, you know, I didn't grow up 673 00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: with black people the town I grew up in. You know. 674 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: It's it's like I look at my life and I 675 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 1: could have I could have turned out way different, uh, 676 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: in terms of my views. And it would have been 677 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: hard to blame me if I could say it that way, 678 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: because I didn't. I didn't grow up around black people. 679 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: We had zero diversity in our town for the most part. 680 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 1: And so it's like this world was going on racism 681 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 1: and stuff, and it's like it just wasn't relevant to me, 682 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,839 Speaker 1: even though inside of my culture, where there were no 683 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 1: at the time, very few minorities at all. Um, there 684 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: was still very much so racism implanted into the culture 685 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,720 Speaker 1: for no reason whatsoever. We didn't even know black people. 686 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: We didn't even know black people, not to like, we 687 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,759 Speaker 1: had no reason to not like somebody we didn't know 688 00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 1: any Still, it was embedded. And uh, you know, I 689 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: my dad, My dad listened to this podcast sometimes. Man, 690 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,600 Speaker 1: he embedded in us. I got what I said basically 691 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 1: from my dad, empathetic empathy. Like he he grew up 692 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: in segregation. He's born in nineteen forty eight, so he 693 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: would have gone to grade school in all white schools. 694 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: I mean, at least some portion of it. And you know, 695 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:33,240 Speaker 1: the Jim Crow laws were kind of fully gotten out 696 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,279 Speaker 1: by about nineteen sixty five, as I understand it, but 697 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: still a lot of those things would have rippled through. 698 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,320 Speaker 1: I mean, but actual, you know a lot of this 699 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: Jim crowl loss. I mean, like he would have grown 700 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 1: up in very much so. Uh. And he grew up 701 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:54,879 Speaker 1: in a bigger town that had black people, and uh, man, 702 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: he he taught us when we were little, even though 703 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 1: we didn't have black friends because there weren't any round that. 704 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,239 Speaker 1: He was like, no, those people are to be respected. 705 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: He really did it. And just as easy as I 706 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: had a dad that put that in me, So it 707 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: made it pretty easy for me to have that. I 708 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 1: could have had a dad that didn't. Well, Okay, so 709 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: I check this out, and this is kind of this 710 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 1: relates back to what I was talking about. There's probably 711 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,799 Speaker 1: a lot of people. You probably know a lot of 712 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,920 Speaker 1: people who maybe maybe their dad never particularly said anything, 713 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, like just you know, terribly racist or offensive. 714 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: But he didn't say what Gary Newcomb said to you, 715 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And there was a vacuum, 716 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:39,880 Speaker 1: there was a space that wasn't filled, and so it 717 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:44,719 Speaker 1: was filled with the culture. Yeah, And I man, I 718 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: was thinking about something, uh because even though I think 719 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:56,120 Speaker 1: that oftentimes, you know, I think that sometimes we give 720 00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: ourselves an excuse saying that we you know, we don't know. 721 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,360 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you I thought of this, maybe this 722 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,640 Speaker 1: little experiment. It's based off of a Chris Rock comedy bid. 723 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 1: But Chris Rock said, and I think this would be 724 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:17,240 Speaker 1: interesting to ask people. So if you say that everyone's 725 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: got the same shot right right now, I'm not talking 726 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: about switching spots with Lebron James or some incredibly wealthy person. 727 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 1: But go find me a white guy who's like I 728 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: would totally be willing to trade spots with average running 729 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 1: the mill black American. You know, in my profession, whatever 730 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:43,400 Speaker 1: I do, that means if if you don't want to 731 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,560 Speaker 1: do that, or you're like, uh, then that means you 732 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: understand something is a miss, you know what I mean? Now, Now, 733 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,400 Speaker 1: we are conditioned as human beings to absolve ourselves of 734 00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,959 Speaker 1: responsibility for bad things because bad things make us feel bad, 735 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: and nobody wants to feel bad, you know. And the 736 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: problem is is that's not a recipe to grow as 737 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:15,720 Speaker 1: a human being. You know, if you avoid every hunting 738 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,279 Speaker 1: situation where you experience discomfort, you won't be much of 739 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,800 Speaker 1: a hunter. And yeah, you know the golf thing. Yeah, 740 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,880 Speaker 1: but I mean no, really, Uh, if you're only willing, 741 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,799 Speaker 1: if you're only willing to chase ducks when it's nice 742 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,680 Speaker 1: weather and it's comfortable, you're probably not gonna get to 743 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,919 Speaker 1: go duck hunting that much. You know. If you want 744 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:44,560 Speaker 1: a nice, easy, convenient bear hunt, then spotting stock in 745 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,799 Speaker 1: the National Forest in Arkansas the end of September is 746 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,040 Speaker 1: not for you, you know. So, But the reason we 747 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,280 Speaker 1: do these things is because we understand there is value 748 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: in the journey, there is value in the struggle, there's 749 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 1: value in the growth that hells. And so I think 750 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 1: that that's a worthwhile attitude to bring towards anything that 751 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,040 Speaker 1: we find personally challenging, you know, whether it be this 752 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: conversation about race, whether it be you know, your relationship 753 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:19,279 Speaker 1: in your church, with your family, whatever it might be. Uh. Yes, 754 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:25,840 Speaker 1: finding empathy even when it's difficult. Uh. I think that's 755 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,479 Speaker 1: that's a real mark of you know, maturity. And I'm 756 00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,960 Speaker 1: absolutely not I don't practice that all the time. You know, 757 00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm not holding myself up as some sort of uh 758 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:43,600 Speaker 1: example of or perfection or infallibility. Yeah. Uh, but I 759 00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: have found that when I'm when I'm honest with myself, 760 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 1: that I can use my experiences, you know, as a 761 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:59,160 Speaker 1: person of color, and I can I can use those 762 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:06,680 Speaker 1: experiences empathize with uh a woman who's describing maybe a 763 00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: situation I have not personally been in. But I understand 764 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 1: what it's like to feel like you have to be 765 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,439 Speaker 1: on guard. I understand what it's like to be made 766 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,719 Speaker 1: to feel small or less than without being given a 767 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,960 Speaker 1: chance to prove yourself on your own. Merits. You know. 768 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: You know, it's one of the reasons that I that 769 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,760 Speaker 1: I believe in the idea of redemption so much, because 770 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,200 Speaker 1: if you don't, then it's not just people you disagree 771 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:37,440 Speaker 1: with your denying that redemption, you're denying it to yourself too. Yeah, 772 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 1: you know, you know, to go back to what you said, 773 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:46,719 Speaker 1: I've got another quote. Um, this person said, it's not 774 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:52,200 Speaker 1: good enough to not be racist, we must be anti racist. Basically, 775 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,839 Speaker 1: the the idea that that there is a vacuum that's 776 00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:02,120 Speaker 1: inside of people that if it's not filled with if 777 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,239 Speaker 1: it's not filled with something correct, it becomes filled with 778 00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,080 Speaker 1: just the trend of the age. If I could say 779 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,120 Speaker 1: it that way. You know what I looked up on 780 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,759 Speaker 1: the way over here, Jonathan, was the actual definition of 781 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:19,040 Speaker 1: racism uh in in Webster's dictionary. Um, and it it. 782 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,960 Speaker 1: I think. I think it put words around what a 783 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:23,400 Speaker 1: lot of us would know. But it gave me a 784 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,719 Speaker 1: little bit of insight because maybe we should have started 785 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,560 Speaker 1: off the podcast by by defining what racism is. And 786 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 1: it says, at least by Webster's dictionary, it could be 787 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,520 Speaker 1: broader than this, I'm sure, but I belief that race 788 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:42,480 Speaker 1: is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities, and 789 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 1: that racial difference differences produced an inherent superiority of a 790 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:54,440 Speaker 1: particular race. Um, I thought that was I think that 791 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,600 Speaker 1: that puts it into perspective. I'd add to that man 792 00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,560 Speaker 1: that could have you ever heard someone have you ever heard, 793 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,680 Speaker 1: like a black person to say like black people can't 794 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,799 Speaker 1: be racist? Have you heard that? What? Okay? So that 795 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,960 Speaker 1: idea is based upon a broader definition of racism that 796 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: I think is maybe a little bit more appropriate, And 797 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 1: it's in some ways it's semantics, but everybody has biases, 798 00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:27,200 Speaker 1: everybody has prejudices racism. While specifically it's a prejudice you know, 799 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,640 Speaker 1: based on you know, quote unquote racial identity or characteristics, 800 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,000 Speaker 1: the implementation of racism is where is where power and 801 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,920 Speaker 1: that prejudice meet. Do you understand what I'm saying? So 802 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:48,520 Speaker 1: it's if if, okay, so I just heard the statistic 803 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,439 Speaker 1: that you know, on average, white teachers are fift less 804 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,319 Speaker 1: likely to recommend black students that meet the criteria for 805 00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:01,720 Speaker 1: the Gifted and Talented program. Uh, now that's a result 806 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,400 Speaker 1: of a prejudice. But the implementation of that, because you know, 807 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,800 Speaker 1: we know that going into a Gifted and Talented program 808 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,320 Speaker 1: in school. It puts you on a different trajectory education wise, 809 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,719 Speaker 1: which you know, you start that in junior high, you 810 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,560 Speaker 1: get through high school, AP courses, college, all this stuff, right, 811 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:24,799 Speaker 1: so that that being less likely to do to to 812 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:30,920 Speaker 1: recommend that student who's an equal merit. That's racist, you know, 813 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:37,480 Speaker 1: that's and that's where it's damaging. Uh. You know somebody 814 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,840 Speaker 1: in their house, you know, not liking the cut of 815 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,040 Speaker 1: my jib or whatever it might be. That doesn't necessarily 816 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:44,840 Speaker 1: affect me. I don't even know what that means, the 817 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,560 Speaker 1: cut of your jib. You never heard that, you know, 818 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,799 Speaker 1: it just doesn't like your style or whatever. But it's 819 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:56,200 Speaker 1: when that person is, you know, hiring down at the 820 00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:00,080 Speaker 1: construction yard and then I show up. This is like 821 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:07,480 Speaker 1: a functional definition and so uh it's I think it's 822 00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,080 Speaker 1: important to add that to it because it Uh, I 823 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,160 Speaker 1: think it kind of rounds out the definition in it 824 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:20,200 Speaker 1: it explains why while lots of people, while everyone has 825 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:24,360 Speaker 1: prejudices and biases, Uh, it's different when it comes to 826 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:27,600 Speaker 1: to the idea of racism. Sometimes I see what I 827 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:34,799 Speaker 1: see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. Um, 828 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,799 Speaker 1: So let's let's go back to I want to talk 829 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about the history of black hunting after 830 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:50,480 Speaker 1: emancipation in the Postbellum. Yeah, because there was some pretty 831 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,680 Speaker 1: incredible stuff that happened. Hey, since I read this book, 832 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,520 Speaker 1: let me this is what I do to like my 833 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,680 Speaker 1: wife and you know, different people as I like lecture 834 00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,759 Speaker 1: them on what I've learned, and then they tell me 835 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,520 Speaker 1: if they understand it. So you can tell me if 836 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,840 Speaker 1: this is what you captured from the book, because you know, 837 00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:06,680 Speaker 1: I'm taking this whole book and trying to put in 838 00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:13,319 Speaker 1: like five minutes here. But basically, when when the emancipation 839 00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:18,320 Speaker 1: came in, all the African Americans were free men, hunting 840 00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,040 Speaker 1: became a way for them to be independent. Basically, all 841 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,480 Speaker 1: the economic structures in the South would have still been 842 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,320 Speaker 1: controlled by white power. I mean, these people didn't even 843 00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,920 Speaker 1: they didn't have they didn't have credit quote unquote, obviously 844 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,600 Speaker 1: they didn't have credit. They just started from zero, and 845 00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,320 Speaker 1: so all economic power is still with their white master. 846 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:39,880 Speaker 1: So when they were free, they were they would have 847 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,760 Speaker 1: gone back and worked with They would have had to 848 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,720 Speaker 1: gone and work for the maybe even the same master. 849 00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:50,480 Speaker 1: So hunting basically became a way for them to gain independence, 850 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,520 Speaker 1: and market hunting was still in full flux in the 851 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:58,080 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five. It was actually probably around the peak, 852 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,800 Speaker 1: you know, for the next forty years till the turn 853 00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,520 Speaker 1: of the century market hunting. So, I mean, you go kill, 854 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,240 Speaker 1: you know, a bunch of ducks, you take them into 855 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,840 Speaker 1: town and sell them, you know, you go. So so 856 00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:17,280 Speaker 1: hunting became away for African Americans to be financially independent 857 00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,480 Speaker 1: from there, from their former place of oppression. And I've 858 00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,440 Speaker 1: got a quote from the book that I thought was 859 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:30,760 Speaker 1: really really powerful. Um, this guy's name, this was let's 860 00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:38,880 Speaker 1: see as as as former slave Charles Ball remembered about 861 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,040 Speaker 1: the day he acquired an old musket for hunting. Let 862 00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:46,400 Speaker 1: me stop right there and say, after the after the war, 863 00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,960 Speaker 1: the Confederate guns were sold for like dirt cheap. All 864 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,280 Speaker 1: these old crummy guns sold for dirt cheap, and so 865 00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,000 Speaker 1: African Americans could afford them. I mean they were just 866 00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:59,920 Speaker 1: like just getting you know, hundreds of thousands of musca 867 00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,680 Speaker 1: and what what they were using. And so those were 868 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:06,680 Speaker 1: the weapons that they acquired for hunting. And he's as 869 00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,480 Speaker 1: former slave Charles Ball remembered about the day acquired an 870 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:13,280 Speaker 1: old musket for hunting. I now began to live well 871 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:18,560 Speaker 1: and to fill myself in some measure an independent man. 872 00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:24,000 Speaker 1: And so he hunting was this place of independence for 873 00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,280 Speaker 1: him and for these people. And that's where the book 874 00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,240 Speaker 1: is so fascinating, because it talks about all these African 875 00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:36,680 Speaker 1: Americans and how incredibly skilled hunters they became. But the 876 00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:43,440 Speaker 1: tragedy of it is that at the same time that 877 00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,960 Speaker 1: that they were becoming, I mean, they were just trying 878 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,080 Speaker 1: to gain their independence. They were they were market hunting 879 00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:55,480 Speaker 1: was the same time that kind of the conservation movement 880 00:59:55,600 --> 01:00:00,920 Speaker 1: was beginning to boil, which which made people started to 881 01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,640 Speaker 1: see that market hunting wasn't the best thing for wildlife 882 01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,560 Speaker 1: and it was gonna decimate wildlife. And in the South, 883 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,560 Speaker 1: white people had always been the one in charge of hunting, 884 01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,920 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, hunting became this place where 885 01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:23,960 Speaker 1: they no longer had racial superiority or control. And so 886 01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:30,240 Speaker 1: that's where they began to like systemically tried to push 887 01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:33,880 Speaker 1: back hunting with African American But there was this long 888 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:39,360 Speaker 1: period of time, or at least until when game laws 889 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:46,120 Speaker 1: were enacted, where African Americans were were fishermen and hunters, 890 01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,400 Speaker 1: and there's all kinds of terrible quotes in this book, 891 01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:53,800 Speaker 1: but fascinating quotes of what great hunters there were and 892 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:58,760 Speaker 1: how at different times they were. You know, they basically 893 01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:04,040 Speaker 1: there were some of these white guys were you know, 894 01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,480 Speaker 1: trying to preserve game and kind of had this European 895 01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:12,800 Speaker 1: philosophy of hunting. And then the African Americans were market 896 01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,640 Speaker 1: hunting in some situations, and so that's where this conflict came. 897 01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,919 Speaker 1: And uh, and that's what ultimately led to the lad 898 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:28,320 Speaker 1: to African Americans essentially being pushed out of hunting because 899 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:32,240 Speaker 1: the people in power. First of all, it well, number two, 900 01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,440 Speaker 1: market hunting was and I'm not saying they were the 901 01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,800 Speaker 1: only ones market hunting. Lots of people were market hunting, 902 01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:44,400 Speaker 1: but they were in the lot of market hunters. Number two, 903 01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:48,760 Speaker 1: it was an issue of labor. So basically, all these 904 01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:53,680 Speaker 1: white guys didn't have any workers anymore, and hunting was 905 01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:58,760 Speaker 1: away for them for African Americans to be independent, and 906 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,720 Speaker 1: so they saw unting black people hunting as a threat 907 01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:07,200 Speaker 1: to their economic interests. And so there's all kinds of 908 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,600 Speaker 1: terrible quotes in that book that are you know, it's 909 01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:14,120 Speaker 1: just there's your Cooper's hawk. I just saw your Cooper's 910 01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,960 Speaker 1: hawk chasing the bird over there. We're sitting out here 911 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,200 Speaker 1: on the front porch. You can watch him nail. He'll 912 01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,520 Speaker 1: nail frogs and little voles and stuff all the time. 913 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:25,200 Speaker 1: He was after a little songbird over there. Um. But 914 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,080 Speaker 1: so Ito's two parts. It was these guys didn't like 915 01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:32,160 Speaker 1: that they were catching and killing all the game. Number two, 916 01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:37,960 Speaker 1: they didn't like the they couldn't find labor. And uh, well, 917 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:42,160 Speaker 1: and it wasn't direct. You gotta remember too, that you've 918 01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:47,600 Speaker 1: got a system that's built up on the on the 919 01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:52,520 Speaker 1: alleged you know, superiority of white people over black people, 920 01:02:53,080 --> 01:03:02,600 Speaker 1: and so so African Americans ability to fend for themselves 921 01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,919 Speaker 1: was in direct contrast with that idea of superiority, because 922 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:12,800 Speaker 1: that's that superiority only works if you've got a population 923 01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:18,840 Speaker 1: that's dependent, you know what I mean? Uh And man, 924 01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 1: you know what really struck me when I was reading 925 01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:27,000 Speaker 1: that book is how I mean you're talking about what 926 01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,440 Speaker 1: what you just described, you're talking about, you know, a 927 01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,600 Speaker 1: population of people who go to the woods, who go 928 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,320 Speaker 1: to the wild to find a way for themselves to 929 01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:40,520 Speaker 1: feed and clothe and provide sustenance for themselves in their family. 930 01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:46,880 Speaker 1: It's as American and ideal as exists. You know what 931 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:52,560 Speaker 1: I mean, Um, you talk about the idea of self determination, 932 01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:59,000 Speaker 1: the idea of doing for yourself, the idea of you know, 933 01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:01,720 Speaker 1: wrestling in what you can out of the world and 934 01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,960 Speaker 1: bringing it home to you, to you and yours. I mean, 935 01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:09,360 Speaker 1: that's exactly what was happening. And so it I think 936 01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,920 Speaker 1: that it wasn't just a yeah. I think you do 937 01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:17,160 Speaker 1: did have this kind of like you know, Southern aristocratic 938 01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:22,280 Speaker 1: oligarchy and their ideas about you know, uh, you know 939 01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:25,960 Speaker 1: what a sportsman quote unquote were you have some of that, 940 01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:30,160 Speaker 1: you have the you have this influx of economic concerns 941 01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,640 Speaker 1: with it as well. But I also think that in 942 01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,960 Speaker 1: large part it was it was just in a front 943 01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:42,720 Speaker 1: yes to the idea that this very fraught idea that 944 01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,880 Speaker 1: so many folks had built their life around. Here's a 945 01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,600 Speaker 1: perfect quote. This is from the book. It says there's 946 01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:55,480 Speaker 1: little doubt that Southern sportsmen, many of them agriculture employers 947 01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:59,439 Speaker 1: or landowners, believe former slaves, hunting and fishing activities were 948 01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:04,720 Speaker 1: threats on several fronts. They merge their grievances over labor 949 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:11,080 Speaker 1: with calls for proper sporting behavior. So basically those are 950 01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:13,320 Speaker 1: the two things that they call them on. Was labor. 951 01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,600 Speaker 1: We don't have labor because these guys are hunting. They 952 01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,520 Speaker 1: don't have to work for us. And then number two, 953 01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:24,120 Speaker 1: sporting behavior like they they they said, you know, their 954 01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:28,240 Speaker 1: market hunters, their pot hunters. There's a there's a chapter 955 01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,440 Speaker 1: in this book called meet Hunting, Son of a Ham. Yeah, 956 01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:34,600 Speaker 1: that's the that's the title of the book or the 957 01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,240 Speaker 1: title of the chapter. And Uh, I think that what 958 01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:40,480 Speaker 1: you just said can be reduced to two things that 959 01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:45,440 Speaker 1: everyone can understand. Money and power. You know, Uh that 960 01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:48,480 Speaker 1: all these systems that we're talking about the wake of 961 01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:53,480 Speaker 1: which we're continuing today, it's not it really is based 962 01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:58,440 Speaker 1: on money and power. Uh. And it's uh and this 963 01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:00,240 Speaker 1: is kind of this is kind of an aside that's 964 01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:02,720 Speaker 1: important to realize, you know a lot. You know, they 965 01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,800 Speaker 1: used to call the mixing of races. You know, quote 966 01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,680 Speaker 1: unquote is they called it missgyn nation. Right, there were 967 01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:12,919 Speaker 1: these anti miscegenation laws. The history of anti missagen nation 968 01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,960 Speaker 1: laws go back to this late seventeen hundreds. Because you 969 01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:22,080 Speaker 1: had communities, you had you had uh, black people enslaved 970 01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,880 Speaker 1: and free, you had Native Americans, you had in white 971 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,400 Speaker 1: people who were in in densured servitude and poor, and 972 01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:32,680 Speaker 1: they all lived together, intermarried, and that was a direct 973 01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:37,160 Speaker 1: threat to the aristocracy, the ruling class, because there's a 974 01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:39,760 Speaker 1: whole lot more of the have nots than there are 975 01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:42,840 Speaker 1: the halves. There always have been. I mean, think about it. 976 01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:48,040 Speaker 1: In the South during slavery, for a big chunk of 977 01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:49,840 Speaker 1: the time, there were more black people than there were 978 01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:58,080 Speaker 1: white people. So to keep to keep these folks from realizing, Yo, 979 01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,320 Speaker 1: we're all in this, We're all being kept down by 980 01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:06,800 Speaker 1: this small rich minority. Let's do something about that. They 981 01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:10,640 Speaker 1: find ways to cause insurrection and strife and trouble within 982 01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,880 Speaker 1: that population to keep them from realizing who's really got 983 01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:19,040 Speaker 1: their Uh, you know where the control really lies. And 984 01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,240 Speaker 1: I think that you can talk about the wake stuff 985 01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,200 Speaker 1: something that's right now. I mean you could see that 986 01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,640 Speaker 1: in any society all over the country, and you that 987 01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,440 Speaker 1: have a lot have a vested interest in keeping it 988 01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:35,680 Speaker 1: that way. And you know, what you just described is 989 01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,560 Speaker 1: not unique to America. It is it is unique to 990 01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:43,320 Speaker 1: mankind for our history. Yeah, I mean, like you know, 991 01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:47,240 Speaker 1: we were talking about American slavery and and all this 992 01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,200 Speaker 1: because that's where we live. But I mean everything you 993 01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:56,240 Speaker 1: just said is this stuff that has happened for generations 994 01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:00,640 Speaker 1: in in all these different places. I like this. I 995 01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,440 Speaker 1: like this quote right here. It's said a text let's 996 01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:08,560 Speaker 1: see a contributing writer under the name of n. A. 997 01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:15,800 Speaker 1: T of Palestine, Texas. Um, he said when they and 998 01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:17,799 Speaker 1: when he was saying they, he was talking about African 999 01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,719 Speaker 1: Americans when they were turned loose quote unquote, they became 1000 01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:25,320 Speaker 1: at once a race of sportsman. That's what he said. 1001 01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:30,400 Speaker 1: They became a race of sportsman. And I think that's 1002 01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:37,800 Speaker 1: so wild because, um, since I've read this book and 1003 01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:42,880 Speaker 1: I have talked to a few people, um, just random people. 1004 01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:45,280 Speaker 1: When I get excited about something, I talked about it, 1005 01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:51,439 Speaker 1: people have essentially been like, wait a minute, Black people 1006 01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:56,400 Speaker 1: don't hunt. And I'm even talking about my black friends 1007 01:08:57,040 --> 01:09:00,880 Speaker 1: that I have sent this too. They have said that, 1008 01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:06,160 Speaker 1: like they's you know, So it's not just you know, 1009 01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:08,720 Speaker 1: I just think it's I think it's fascinating. It's in 1010 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:11,320 Speaker 1: the man. Look, it's in the collective zeitgeist, you know. 1011 01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:13,680 Speaker 1: And I've I've made this point many times, but it 1012 01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:17,800 Speaker 1: you took a population with people that were almost entirely rule, 1013 01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:23,800 Speaker 1: and you within twenty years you made them almost entirely urban. 1014 01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:27,519 Speaker 1: You had all these structures in place that prevented and 1015 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:31,280 Speaker 1: limited them from being able to access the wild. And 1016 01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:35,120 Speaker 1: that's not just from uh, you know, pricing game licenses 1017 01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:39,000 Speaker 1: out of uh you know, many poor rule black people's 1018 01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,519 Speaker 1: ability to purchase. But also you know there are for 1019 01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:43,759 Speaker 1: a long time there were laws against black people owning 1020 01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:47,280 Speaker 1: guns or weapons of any kind, uh, the tools they 1021 01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:51,120 Speaker 1: would need to hunt. So you do that, and then 1022 01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:55,080 Speaker 1: you get to three generations away from that, and suddenly 1023 01:09:56,439 --> 01:10:00,920 Speaker 1: everyone believes that's the case black people just inherently don't 1024 01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:05,719 Speaker 1: do these things when uh, really, nothing could be further 1025 01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,640 Speaker 1: from the truth. Uh. And to go back to that 1026 01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:13,600 Speaker 1: idea of that revival, that resurgence, Uh, man, I'm telling you, 1027 01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:17,879 Speaker 1: when I'm in the Bayous, when I'm in the woods, 1028 01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:23,160 Speaker 1: I feel a a a spiritual connection to these places, 1029 01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:27,400 Speaker 1: you know, And I'm not saying that it's necessarily because 1030 01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:31,160 Speaker 1: of you know, my ancestors or whatever, but I feel 1031 01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:34,400 Speaker 1: a human connection to those places that it has nothing 1032 01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:36,960 Speaker 1: It has to do with me being a person and 1033 01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:39,880 Speaker 1: me interacting with those worlds. Like my wife feels that 1034 01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,559 Speaker 1: way in the desert I feel that way, and swamps 1035 01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:47,280 Speaker 1: and bayous you know. Uh, I'm a I'm a terrestrial creature. 1036 01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:48,599 Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to be on the ocean. 1037 01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:50,439 Speaker 1: But there's people that feel that way in the ocean. 1038 01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:54,639 Speaker 1: They're pulled, They're tied to it, where we as human beings, 1039 01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:59,120 Speaker 1: we cannot be separated from that connection. And then you 1040 01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:02,519 Speaker 1: look at all look at the host of mental health 1041 01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:05,960 Speaker 1: problems that come with folks not being able to make 1042 01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,439 Speaker 1: that connection. I mean this, it's part of who we 1043 01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:12,040 Speaker 1: are as human beings. You're supposed to be in touch 1044 01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:16,280 Speaker 1: and in tune with that. And and I I can 1045 01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:20,800 Speaker 1: personally speak to the fact that when I am I'm 1046 01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:25,519 Speaker 1: a better person. I'm more calm, I'm I can listen 1047 01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:29,400 Speaker 1: to people more, i can be more empathetic to people. 1048 01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:33,760 Speaker 1: I can be a better version of myself because I'm 1049 01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:37,720 Speaker 1: involved in something that again is reaffirming and kind of 1050 01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:41,880 Speaker 1: reigniting my humanity. As I'm not in conflict with the 1051 01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:46,720 Speaker 1: natural world. I'm a part of it, you know. Man, 1052 01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:49,519 Speaker 1: As as you're talking, I'm just flipping through my book, Jonathan, 1053 01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:52,679 Speaker 1: looking at things that I underlined. I'm gonna just read 1054 01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:57,600 Speaker 1: a couple of kind of like disconnected quotes hereah, okay, um, 1055 01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:03,479 Speaker 1: let's see with Varian's drawn from centuries of servitude, no 1056 01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:07,639 Speaker 1: one knew better than former slaves on hunting and fishing. 1057 01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:13,160 Speaker 1: African Americans sold meat and hunting dogs, and by reputation, 1058 01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:17,559 Speaker 1: they were the best in the South if raised by 1059 01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:24,320 Speaker 1: former slaves dogs dog hun Um. I think that's cool. 1060 01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:31,280 Speaker 1: Best dogs in the South raised by former slaves. Um. 1061 01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:37,479 Speaker 1: Let's see. Texas slave j Vance Lewis on liberation was 1062 01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:42,280 Speaker 1: dissolving his upon liberation was dissolving his long standing hunting 1063 01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:46,960 Speaker 1: relationship with his master's son, Cage Duncan. Okay, so here's this. 1064 01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:53,240 Speaker 1: Here's a slave Vance Johnson Vance Lewis and the is 1065 01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:58,320 Speaker 1: master's son, Cage Duncan, and they had a long standing 1066 01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:03,760 Speaker 1: hunting relationship. Lewis recalled. There was also a very difficult 1067 01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:07,160 Speaker 1: problem for us to solve. We had three coon dogs 1068 01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:10,400 Speaker 1: which we jointly owned, and I did not see how 1069 01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:14,599 Speaker 1: to divide the dogs without hurting his feelings. My feelings 1070 01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:18,479 Speaker 1: are the dogs feelings without relinquishing my claims, which I 1071 01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:22,960 Speaker 1: loath to do. Basically, after emancipation, they had to decide 1072 01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:26,120 Speaker 1: who kept these dogs, and I just thought that was 1073 01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:31,040 Speaker 1: what a crazy problem to have. What are unique like 1074 01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:37,800 Speaker 1: moment in history and that that you know, you would 1075 01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,559 Speaker 1: have to think if they hunted together and raised dogs together, 1076 01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:44,160 Speaker 1: there were times when they were out at night and 1077 01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:48,080 Speaker 1: there were no lights on and they couldn't see that 1078 01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:52,280 Speaker 1: they would have had just a human connection with one 1079 01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:57,400 Speaker 1: one another, you know, they were they maybe just for 1080 01:13:57,439 --> 01:14:00,639 Speaker 1: a split second, you know. Yeah, you know that's uh. 1081 01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,960 Speaker 1: That brings to mind a quote I heard just the 1082 01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,160 Speaker 1: other day, and man, it really resonated with me. And 1083 01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:13,040 Speaker 1: it talks about the difference in in these systems, uh, 1084 01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:16,240 Speaker 1: in the North and in the South. And the quote 1085 01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:19,000 Speaker 1: went like this, it said, you know, speaking about African 1086 01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:22,160 Speaker 1: Americans and the white power structure, it said, in the North, 1087 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:24,720 Speaker 1: they didn't care how big you got, as long as 1088 01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:27,679 Speaker 1: you didn't get too close. You know. So there's idea, 1089 01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,160 Speaker 1: you know, this idea that like, you know, in the forties, 1090 01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:33,040 Speaker 1: the twenties, thirties and forties, I mean, you know, there 1091 01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:37,000 Speaker 1: were black owned businesses, neighborhoods. You know, like my dad 1092 01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:38,960 Speaker 1: grew up in the neighborhood in St. Louis called the Ville, 1093 01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:42,360 Speaker 1: and it was black doctors and black black lawyers and 1094 01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,000 Speaker 1: the teachers were black, and the storekeepers were black and 1095 01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:49,800 Speaker 1: all of that right in the South. They didn't care 1096 01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:51,760 Speaker 1: how close you got, as long as you didn't get 1097 01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:54,080 Speaker 1: too big. And if you think about all the violence 1098 01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:56,920 Speaker 1: that was done to black people in the South during 1099 01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:03,479 Speaker 1: that time, it was because ultimately a supposed infraction and 1100 01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:08,519 Speaker 1: you know, stepping out of turn. But what's so interesting 1101 01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:10,120 Speaker 1: about that, Like you said, if you go to the delta, 1102 01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,599 Speaker 1: you know, black and white people are used to being 1103 01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:15,760 Speaker 1: in close contact with each other. You know the thing 1104 01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:19,200 Speaker 1: about the wet nurses during slavery, you know you're talking 1105 01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:23,799 Speaker 1: about slave are the owner the children of slave owners 1106 01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:29,440 Speaker 1: were We're fed, you know, milk from slaves. An incredibly 1107 01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:35,479 Speaker 1: uh intimate connection. Uh. But there was still there was 1108 01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:38,000 Speaker 1: this line that could not be crossed, and if there 1109 01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:40,760 Speaker 1: was even the perception of that intrusion, it had to 1110 01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:45,719 Speaker 1: be crushed with extreme viciousness to make an example. Uh. 1111 01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:47,640 Speaker 1: You know, so what I remember that quote, and I 1112 01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:51,280 Speaker 1: always remember thinking that like I mean emancipated or not, 1113 01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:54,679 Speaker 1: Like if that one guy said I'm gonna keep the dogs, 1114 01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:58,280 Speaker 1: he's keeping the dogs, you know what I mean. Well, 1115 01:15:58,439 --> 01:16:04,599 Speaker 1: it never gave resolution and man. You know, there's it's 1116 01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:10,599 Speaker 1: easy to you would hope that somebody. I think throughout 1117 01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,120 Speaker 1: history there have been people that had character that was 1118 01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:18,639 Speaker 1: beyond their time. Oh absolutely, And we don't know anything 1119 01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:21,799 Speaker 1: about Cage Junkan Duncan. Maybe he was a jerk, maybe 1120 01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:26,240 Speaker 1: he was just typical. Well he well, okay, I'm gonna 1121 01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:28,519 Speaker 1: this is a perspective that I come from on that 1122 01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:35,559 Speaker 1: he owned other human beings. So whether he was less 1123 01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:39,240 Speaker 1: brutal than someone else who did that, or whether he 1124 01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, buddied around with one of his slaves or 1125 01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:50,599 Speaker 1: whatever like, he he still is guilty of barbarity. So 1126 01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:58,000 Speaker 1: and the only way to exist in that system, because 1127 01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:00,679 Speaker 1: human beings are capable of being off to one another. 1128 01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:07,320 Speaker 1: But to maintain that sort of extended dull plotting day 1129 01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:15,640 Speaker 1: in day out barbarity, uh, you know, he would have 1130 01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:20,120 Speaker 1: been diminished as well. His potential for reaching or his 1131 01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:22,759 Speaker 1: his ability to reach his potential as a human being 1132 01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:26,680 Speaker 1: was stunted as well as the people that he was 1133 01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:33,519 Speaker 1: you know, lowerd ing over. It's a I think that 1134 01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:38,360 Speaker 1: while some of the you know, base or points of 1135 01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:43,639 Speaker 1: our our ability to be human sometimes seems like it's 1136 01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:49,120 Speaker 1: a commonality. I think that that that always when when 1137 01:17:49,160 --> 01:17:54,799 Speaker 1: we go to those lower levels dismissing other people, whatever 1138 01:17:54,880 --> 01:18:00,000 Speaker 1: way we do it, we're limiting our ability to realize 1139 01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:03,439 Speaker 1: the fullness of our humanity. I think that the ultimate 1140 01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:05,960 Speaker 1: condition of humanity is supposed to be one of growth 1141 01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:11,479 Speaker 1: and empathy and an exploration and not necessarily easy stuff. 1142 01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:15,080 Speaker 1: But but those things so And I know that kind 1143 01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:17,280 Speaker 1: of seems a bit disjointed, but I do. Uh, I 1144 01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:18,920 Speaker 1: see what you're saying, and see that's the kind of 1145 01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:22,120 Speaker 1: stuff like I was. I was, I was looking at 1146 01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:25,120 Speaker 1: it from like this micro scale of like these two 1147 01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:29,400 Speaker 1: guys had dogs together, and but you saw it from 1148 01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:32,160 Speaker 1: this bigger thing, which I didn't. I would just wouldn't 1149 01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:34,680 Speaker 1: have thought that. But it's it's such a I mean, 1150 01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:37,400 Speaker 1: it's a no brainer. And it's also and that's why 1151 01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:39,640 Speaker 1: I like. That's why, I mean, I like to have 1152 01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:42,200 Speaker 1: this conversation with you. It's an out. It's an out 1153 01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:45,280 Speaker 1: that we give ourselves too much. I've heard this my 1154 01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:49,120 Speaker 1: entire life. Well, you know, they didn't know any better. 1155 01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:53,519 Speaker 1: They were a product of their times. Absolutely, I mean, 1156 01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:57,320 Speaker 1: that's that's totally true. But it was it wasn't less 1157 01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:02,879 Speaker 1: wrong to murder and rape and hurt and oppressed somebody 1158 01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:05,439 Speaker 1: two d years ago or a thousand years ago than 1159 01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:07,720 Speaker 1: it is now. Hey, I've got it. I've got it. 1160 01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:10,439 Speaker 1: That's a great point here. I heard this said the 1161 01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:13,400 Speaker 1: other day, and when he said it, I had a 1162 01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:16,360 Speaker 1: hard time not like being like, I agree with that, 1163 01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:19,640 Speaker 1: and I really want to hear what you think about this. 1164 01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:22,640 Speaker 1: The guy was, you know, with everybody with some of 1165 01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:24,759 Speaker 1: the stuff that's going on right now where we're looking 1166 01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:28,799 Speaker 1: back in history and saying, hey, that guy was actually 1167 01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:33,240 Speaker 1: a bad dude. I've heard it said of Abraham Lincoln. 1168 01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:38,760 Speaker 1: I've heard it said of Theodore Roosevelt, and the the 1169 01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:41,960 Speaker 1: guy said, and maybe I'll tell you who said that. 1170 01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:46,000 Speaker 1: Maybe I won't. Uh well, i'll tell you later. Um, 1171 01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:51,920 Speaker 1: he said, he has a hard time pointing finger like 1172 01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:57,280 Speaker 1: applying current mentalities to people who lived that long ago, 1173 01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:03,360 Speaker 1: who were actually poking whole into the thing that was coming, 1174 01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:06,160 Speaker 1: like Abraham Lincoln. Like and I don't I don't know 1175 01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:07,920 Speaker 1: all the dirt on Abe Lincoln, but I've heard his 1176 01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:11,519 Speaker 1: name come up several times. Um Roosevelt, you know, like 1177 01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:15,760 Speaker 1: he tipped his hat pretty heavily, and by tip his 1178 01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:18,080 Speaker 1: hat and I don't know all the details of Roosevelt. 1179 01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:20,240 Speaker 1: I've heard people say he was a racist and a 1180 01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:22,960 Speaker 1: bad guy, but I also know that he gave our 1181 01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:27,040 Speaker 1: buddy Hoyt Collier a forty seventy and respected the guy. 1182 01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:31,160 Speaker 1: Uh Hoyt Collier was his uh African American guide in 1183 01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:35,760 Speaker 1: Mississippi and so in in in Roosevelt also tipped his 1184 01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:39,599 Speaker 1: hat to the Native Americans more than anybody. Like I'm 1185 01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:41,719 Speaker 1: not gonna say anybody of his time, but you get 1186 01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:44,320 Speaker 1: my point. Like, so, now if we've applied to day's 1187 01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:47,960 Speaker 1: standards on him, ah, he's a racist. He he you know, 1188 01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:51,080 Speaker 1: did this or did that or said this. So like 1189 01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:55,719 Speaker 1: applying today's standards to someone back then who who had 1190 01:20:55,840 --> 01:20:59,240 Speaker 1: some inkling And this is the key point, Jonathan would 1191 01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:04,880 Speaker 1: have some inkling of foresight and poking holes into this 1192 01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:07,479 Speaker 1: thing that we now say, oh that was crazy. Do 1193 01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:09,800 Speaker 1: you see? What? Does that make sense? Yeah? Man? And 1194 01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:14,679 Speaker 1: you know, it's actually something I've thought about, and it's uh, 1195 01:21:15,080 --> 01:21:16,599 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you, I don't know that I've 1196 01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:19,840 Speaker 1: I've got a succinct answer for you because it's something 1197 01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:25,120 Speaker 1: that I'm still thinking about. I would say this, I 1198 01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:29,200 Speaker 1: think it's worth thinking about. And I think that when 1199 01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:33,920 Speaker 1: we become dogmatic, I think that's that's dangerous because it 1200 01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,200 Speaker 1: prevents you from listening. It prevents you, you know, from 1201 01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:40,840 Speaker 1: listening with a charitable spirit, it prevents you from being 1202 01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:47,720 Speaker 1: fully empathetic. Um, And I think that I think you 1203 01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:49,960 Speaker 1: don't have to go back in time. I think that 1204 01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:56,000 Speaker 1: you can acknowledge, you know, someone could do great evil 1205 01:21:56,240 --> 01:22:00,679 Speaker 1: and still do great good. And I think that's more. 1206 01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:05,800 Speaker 1: I think that I think that as human beings we 1207 01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:09,559 Speaker 1: want easy answers, and the truth is that human beings 1208 01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:14,320 Speaker 1: are not easy, and there's not easy answers too, especially 1209 01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:16,360 Speaker 1: when you look at a person in the entirety of 1210 01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:23,439 Speaker 1: their life. So I think that I'll say, personally, for me, 1211 01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:31,200 Speaker 1: I try not to to make a determination on someone 1212 01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:35,920 Speaker 1: only on what they've done in the past. Someone can 1213 01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:38,639 Speaker 1: do something that I really disagree with, but if there 1214 01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:42,360 Speaker 1: is a progression away from that thing that I think 1215 01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:44,759 Speaker 1: is wrong, and I can see them trying to grow 1216 01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:46,920 Speaker 1: and to wrestle with it and struggle with it and 1217 01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:49,880 Speaker 1: then end up away from that, that's a person that 1218 01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:52,720 Speaker 1: I can continue to speak to and interact with. And 1219 01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:55,840 Speaker 1: even if I don't always disagree or even rather even 1220 01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:58,479 Speaker 1: if I don't always agree with them, I've got I'm 1221 01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:01,240 Speaker 1: thinking about someone in particular in my life that is 1222 01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:04,520 Speaker 1: like that, someone I care about a lot. I disagree 1223 01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:07,880 Speaker 1: with them with them on some pretty you know, kind 1224 01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:14,400 Speaker 1: of touchstone, uh kind of ideas, but we've maintained the 1225 01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:18,320 Speaker 1: respect level with each other that we're able to empathize 1226 01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:22,000 Speaker 1: and and talk with each other and we we each 1227 01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:24,160 Speaker 1: get something out of it. So yeah, man, I don't 1228 01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:26,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, and I kind of don't. Like I said, 1229 01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:29,479 Speaker 1: I don't have a succinct enough answer for me. Don't 1230 01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:33,760 Speaker 1: wanna die on any of these mountaintops specifically around that 1231 01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:36,880 Speaker 1: right now. But yeah, it's man, it's complicated, and I 1232 01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:39,880 Speaker 1: think that it's worth thinking. I think I think the 1233 01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:43,599 Speaker 1: way to look at it, too, is what are we 1234 01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:49,040 Speaker 1: doing today that if society continues to progress, that will 1235 01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:52,240 Speaker 1: look back on and we'll be the barbarians. Oh, I 1236 01:23:52,280 --> 01:23:54,200 Speaker 1: think about that all the time. Man. Well, and that's 1237 01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:56,880 Speaker 1: the same place that they were in. I mean, like, 1238 01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:02,479 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's examples, Like I listened to a 1239 01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:07,080 Speaker 1: podcast the other day about Thomas Jefferson, and so he's 1240 01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:09,640 Speaker 1: one of these guys that it was like this influential 1241 01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:15,000 Speaker 1: founding father, big time slave owner, had like six children 1242 01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:20,400 Speaker 1: with uh Sally Hemans. Okay, you you know probably more 1243 01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:25,320 Speaker 1: than I do about him, But he was so at 1244 01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:28,160 Speaker 1: first glance, you're like, godly, this guy was a dirt ball. 1245 01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:30,680 Speaker 1: But it was actually a black woman that wrote a 1246 01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:33,559 Speaker 1: book about this that this was what the podcast was about. 1247 01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:36,880 Speaker 1: This black lady wrote a book about Jefferson and she 1248 01:24:37,120 --> 01:24:39,120 Speaker 1: I felt like she had a pretty good perspective on 1249 01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:43,360 Speaker 1: it because she she said that she wasn't the one 1250 01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:46,080 Speaker 1: that said what I just told you, but she was like, man, 1251 01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:47,880 Speaker 1: he did a whole bunch of stuff that at for 1252 01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:53,599 Speaker 1: the time was way way ahead of the norm for 1253 01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:57,200 Speaker 1: slave owners. And again it's like lower in the bar, 1254 01:24:57,280 --> 01:25:01,920 Speaker 1: pretty low, I I see that, but you know, and 1255 01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:05,639 Speaker 1: she gave all these examples of like real nuanced things 1256 01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:11,360 Speaker 1: that he did that to her, she was like, you know, 1257 01:25:11,360 --> 01:25:13,400 Speaker 1: because I mean pretty much the interviewer it was like, 1258 01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:16,760 Speaker 1: it was is he a monster for what he did? 1259 01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:19,920 Speaker 1: And she was like, yeah, he was a slave owner, buddy. Also, 1260 01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, she didn't just nail him down to monster 1261 01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:29,000 Speaker 1: or saint. She was like, he's both, well, man, probably 1262 01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:31,679 Speaker 1: most people are. I mean I could point you specifically 1263 01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:33,960 Speaker 1: with Jefferson, I could I could point you to some 1264 01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:37,040 Speaker 1: of his writings where he talked, you know, like Monicello 1265 01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:40,479 Speaker 1: was like this. I mean it was it wasn't just 1266 01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:43,599 Speaker 1: a farm. I mean they had industrial production there and stuff. 1267 01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:45,599 Speaker 1: One of the things they had there was a small 1268 01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:50,200 Speaker 1: nail factory and one of the preferred age groups of 1269 01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:52,240 Speaker 1: people slaves to work in the nail factory was a 1270 01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:55,040 Speaker 1: ten year old boy. And you can look at his 1271 01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:58,759 Speaker 1: writings describing how he had those ten year old children 1272 01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:02,200 Speaker 1: whipped and beat and how it upped his production numbers 1273 01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:06,840 Speaker 1: on nails. So uh or I mean, you know, think 1274 01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:11,040 Speaker 1: about the idea of think about the person you like 1275 01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:14,920 Speaker 1: and respect the most out of anyone you know, and 1276 01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:20,080 Speaker 1: then think about the idea that they would own their children, 1277 01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:24,519 Speaker 1: which is what he did. So I'm not discounting the 1278 01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:29,559 Speaker 1: great the greatness and the brilliance that he was capable of, 1279 01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:33,200 Speaker 1: but I think you could you could point to these 1280 01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:37,200 Speaker 1: other things and talk about barbarity and horrific nous, and 1281 01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:39,479 Speaker 1: you know, you can talk about how he loves Sally Hemings. 1282 01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:41,920 Speaker 1: But to me, the crux of it is, did Sally 1283 01:26:41,960 --> 01:26:45,400 Speaker 1: Hemmings have a choice because she had said, no, I 1284 01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:48,759 Speaker 1: don't want to bear six of your children. No she couldn't. 1285 01:26:49,040 --> 01:26:54,320 Speaker 1: And so it's the problem is is that or that not? 1286 01:26:54,360 --> 01:26:56,920 Speaker 1: The problem? The issue is this. I mean, that's a complicated, 1287 01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:03,720 Speaker 1: difficult thing to look at into, inter rationalized and to 1288 01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:06,720 Speaker 1: wrestle with. And it's a lot easier to say that 1289 01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:10,800 Speaker 1: everyone that signed the Declaration of Independence was above reproach. 1290 01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:13,320 Speaker 1: And the truth is is that none of us are. 1291 01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:16,599 Speaker 1: And there will never be a person who was born 1292 01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:20,759 Speaker 1: that will that is beyond reproach. Uh, We're all gonna 1293 01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:25,160 Speaker 1: be flawed, We're all going to be capable, capable, born 1294 01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:29,719 Speaker 1: with the capacity for you know, great magnanimity and great evil. 1295 01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:33,320 Speaker 1: And and I think in the end, it's not just 1296 01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:39,040 Speaker 1: what we've done, but it's how we've allowed the maturation 1297 01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:41,360 Speaker 1: process we go through. You know. I look, I don't 1298 01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:45,439 Speaker 1: want to be I don't want to be judged as 1299 01:27:45,479 --> 01:27:48,960 Speaker 1: a thirty seven year old man for every sorry thing 1300 01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:51,120 Speaker 1: I did when I was nineteen and twenty years old. 1301 01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:53,920 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Now, if I was still 1302 01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:57,160 Speaker 1: doing those sorry things when someone told me I was 1303 01:27:57,200 --> 01:28:00,080 Speaker 1: a scumbag, I think I'd have to honestly say yeah, 1304 01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:03,679 Speaker 1: I am. But if I can look at those things 1305 01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:06,000 Speaker 1: that I'm not proud of or I'm regretful of, or 1306 01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:08,679 Speaker 1: things I said, or ideas I had or whatever from 1307 01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:12,200 Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and say, here's the process I went through. 1308 01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:15,719 Speaker 1: And sometimes it was painful, and sometimes I made a jump. 1309 01:28:16,240 --> 01:28:18,839 Speaker 1: They weren't all little stair steps. Sometimes they were jumps 1310 01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:22,320 Speaker 1: because uh of a painful incident in my life, or 1311 01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:25,799 Speaker 1: because you know, I did something and was humiliated because 1312 01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:27,800 Speaker 1: of it, or I was shamed because of it or 1313 01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:32,360 Speaker 1: or whatever. But you know, I feel like a human 1314 01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:34,840 Speaker 1: beings life is kind of supposed to look like, you know, 1315 01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:37,080 Speaker 1: the way they would want a mutual fund to look. 1316 01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:39,320 Speaker 1: If you look at it over the course of the 1317 01:28:39,360 --> 01:28:42,640 Speaker 1: whole thing, you have an upwards trajectory. But if you 1318 01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:45,040 Speaker 1: zone in on year to year, you might have had 1319 01:28:45,080 --> 01:28:48,040 Speaker 1: a really bad year. But if you try to stay 1320 01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:52,160 Speaker 1: the course and you worked with that value system of 1321 01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:54,920 Speaker 1: of trying to learn more, trying to be more empathetic, 1322 01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:59,320 Speaker 1: trying to to put value in other people's experiences, you 1323 01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:03,080 Speaker 1: will end up better. And again, this is all so 1324 01:29:03,360 --> 01:29:07,640 Speaker 1: transferable because every the way we're talking about analyzing this information, 1325 01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:11,840 Speaker 1: I think it's fantastic. You know, specifically this discussion we're having, 1326 01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:14,960 Speaker 1: you know, based around race. But man, if take every 1327 01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:17,040 Speaker 1: one of these ideas we're talking about and put that 1328 01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:20,080 Speaker 1: into how you pursue black bears this fall, you know 1329 01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:22,160 Speaker 1: what I mean, You'll get more out of it. It'll 1330 01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:25,240 Speaker 1: be a richer experience. You'll grow as a hunter, you'll 1331 01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:27,679 Speaker 1: grow as a human being. Take those same ideas, those 1332 01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:32,800 Speaker 1: same value structures, empathy, hard work, listening, and put that 1333 01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:36,400 Speaker 1: into work with your children. You're gonna mess up, you 1334 01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:38,840 Speaker 1: know what I mean, But you're hoping to stay on 1335 01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:43,120 Speaker 1: that upwards trajectory. And and I think you also have 1336 01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:46,920 Speaker 1: to do what I think it's really important to say 1337 01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:49,200 Speaker 1: I don't know when you don't know, and just say 1338 01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:51,760 Speaker 1: you know what, I don't know. I need to think 1339 01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:54,200 Speaker 1: about it some more. I need to have some more 1340 01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:56,720 Speaker 1: time with it. I need to absorb more information. You know, 1341 01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:01,200 Speaker 1: we we've got to become intimate, be aware that we 1342 01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:06,120 Speaker 1: have biases in a worldview that we are unaware of, 1343 01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:10,880 Speaker 1: and in step back. I mean, and that's kind of 1344 01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:14,400 Speaker 1: my position today, Jonathan. I mean, I really thought long 1345 01:30:14,439 --> 01:30:18,160 Speaker 1: and hard about about this. And part of the reason 1346 01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:21,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to have this conversation. Is exactly what has happened. 1347 01:30:21,200 --> 01:30:25,479 Speaker 1: Is I wanted to see the world through through your 1348 01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:31,840 Speaker 1: your lens on some of this. And uh So being 1349 01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:35,439 Speaker 1: aware that you don't know is the key factor for 1350 01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:42,080 Speaker 1: really success in anything. I mean absolutely is that No, 1351 01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:45,400 Speaker 1: you don't you don't know, you don't know the best way, 1352 01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:48,400 Speaker 1: You don't know everything there is to know about it. 1353 01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:53,360 Speaker 1: And uh I really like what you just said. Um 1354 01:30:53,840 --> 01:30:56,720 Speaker 1: I really do. Man I could, uh I could, I 1355 01:30:56,760 --> 01:30:59,880 Speaker 1: could go on and on with these quotes, but heye. 1356 01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:03,519 Speaker 1: Book is called Hunting and Fishing the New South, Black 1357 01:31:03,600 --> 01:31:06,519 Speaker 1: Labor and White Leisure after the Civil War. It's an 1358 01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:09,760 Speaker 1: academic book. So it's when I say academic book, I 1359 01:31:09,800 --> 01:31:14,480 Speaker 1: mean it's not like a It's not like this guy's opinion. 1360 01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:18,200 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly there's some he's drawing conclusions from evidence 1361 01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:20,920 Speaker 1: that he sees, but it's not like just this guy's 1362 01:31:21,000 --> 01:31:24,800 Speaker 1: opinion on what happened. Literally, the book is page after 1363 01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:30,880 Speaker 1: page after page of documentation of quotes, of statistics of 1364 01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:34,560 Speaker 1: things that happened that really is pretty hard to refute, 1365 01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:38,640 Speaker 1: you know. I mean it's a storiographical examination. Like I 1366 01:31:38,680 --> 01:31:43,400 Speaker 1: told you, that started as that guy's dissertation for his doctor. Uh. 1367 01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:45,519 Speaker 1: But you know something too I wanted to speak to 1368 01:31:45,560 --> 01:31:50,800 Speaker 1: on that book real quickly is that, you know, it's 1369 01:31:51,680 --> 01:31:54,800 Speaker 1: it's also interesting to me, you know, man, you know 1370 01:31:55,200 --> 01:31:57,879 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, eighteen years ago, when I moved to Arkansas, 1371 01:31:58,080 --> 01:32:03,880 Speaker 1: I moved to Arkansas eighteen years ago, Like I never 1372 01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:06,120 Speaker 1: would have guessed that my life would be what it 1373 01:32:06,240 --> 01:32:09,840 Speaker 1: is now, you know, and that you'd have a spinner 1374 01:32:09,840 --> 01:32:16,400 Speaker 1: bait tattoo on your wrist, your fat that's a blue fox. Um. 1375 01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:20,920 Speaker 1: You guys gotta see this. Check out Jonathan's Instagram. But uh, 1376 01:32:22,760 --> 01:32:26,519 Speaker 1: hold up, man, I just I just lost like I 1377 01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:29,760 Speaker 1: had a point. Uh oh no, that's what I was 1378 01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:34,200 Speaker 1: talking about. I also think that it's a super interesting 1379 01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:36,720 Speaker 1: text too. And what I was saying is, you know, 1380 01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:41,040 Speaker 1: I came down here from St. Louis with preconceived notions 1381 01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:42,720 Speaker 1: and a different idea of what I wanted to do 1382 01:32:42,760 --> 01:32:45,200 Speaker 1: with my life. And now I look at myself right now, 1383 01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:48,760 Speaker 1: and I am a Southern hunter, you know what I mean. 1384 01:32:49,200 --> 01:32:52,479 Speaker 1: I've never I've fished in Alaska, but I've everything I've 1385 01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:55,200 Speaker 1: ever hunted, you know, killed and harvested, and eaton has 1386 01:32:55,240 --> 01:33:02,080 Speaker 1: been right here in Arkansas. And it's cool to to 1387 01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:07,040 Speaker 1: read histories that are applicable to where we live and 1388 01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:09,080 Speaker 1: what we're doing, you know, and and it because it 1389 01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:11,519 Speaker 1: does place you on that continuum. And that's what I 1390 01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:14,240 Speaker 1: was talking about when we were back in March, when 1391 01:33:14,240 --> 01:33:19,000 Speaker 1: we were running those coon dogs, you know, and I 1392 01:33:19,400 --> 01:33:21,880 Speaker 1: was doing that after I read this book, and I 1393 01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:24,640 Speaker 1: was I felt like I was part of that continuum, 1394 01:33:24,720 --> 01:33:27,960 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And uh, that's the best 1395 01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:30,720 Speaker 1: aspects of what people think about when they talk about heritage. 1396 01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:34,599 Speaker 1: You know, it's something that can be inspiring, and it's 1397 01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:40,280 Speaker 1: something that can be uh validating, and it gives you 1398 01:33:40,360 --> 01:33:45,559 Speaker 1: a sense of belonging in place, and it's man, it's 1399 01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:50,600 Speaker 1: it's really a powerful thing. And I think that you know, 1400 01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:53,720 Speaker 1: especially you know, folks that we might hunt around a lot, right, 1401 01:33:54,080 --> 01:33:57,000 Speaker 1: folks that have Southern accents, Folks that have spent their 1402 01:33:57,040 --> 01:33:59,679 Speaker 1: whole life hunting here in the South, and that love 1403 01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:02,000 Speaker 1: it and want to live here, and this is where 1404 01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:04,120 Speaker 1: they raise their families, and this is you know, the 1405 01:34:04,200 --> 01:34:08,800 Speaker 1: little country church or whatever it might be. This lets 1406 01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:12,920 Speaker 1: you know more about where you're from and part of 1407 01:34:12,920 --> 01:34:20,040 Speaker 1: that heritage, and it there's painful blemishes on the history 1408 01:34:20,080 --> 01:34:21,880 Speaker 1: of this country, on the history of the region that 1409 01:34:21,920 --> 01:34:26,320 Speaker 1: we live in. But there's beauty and wonder and resilience 1410 01:34:26,439 --> 01:34:30,639 Speaker 1: and redemption and and and love and all that stuff 1411 01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:33,840 Speaker 1: in it too. And I think that you're able to 1412 01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:39,080 Speaker 1: actually more fully appreciate those wondrous things about it when 1413 01:34:39,120 --> 01:34:42,360 Speaker 1: you face some of the discomfort of the ugliness of it, 1414 01:34:42,800 --> 01:34:46,760 Speaker 1: you know. And uh and yeah, man, I want to 1415 01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:50,120 Speaker 1: remind people of that because I get this as difficult 1416 01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:53,559 Speaker 1: and it's it's off putting. And I bet there's people 1417 01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:55,720 Speaker 1: that heard the first ten minutes and tuned out to 1418 01:34:55,720 --> 01:34:59,160 Speaker 1: this podcast, but if you listened all the way through. 1419 01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:03,160 Speaker 1: I don't want folks to feel attacked. I want them 1420 01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:06,080 Speaker 1: to feel like I want them to feel like this 1421 01:35:06,160 --> 01:35:09,360 Speaker 1: is you know, there's there's I want to use the 1422 01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:15,479 Speaker 1: word like effortvescence like it. Knowledge and understanding fills you up. 1423 01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:18,599 Speaker 1: It makes you like more alive, it makes you more 1424 01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:24,240 Speaker 1: able to experience life. Uh. And that it can't always 1425 01:35:24,280 --> 01:35:28,519 Speaker 1: be it can't always be laudatory, you know what I mean. 1426 01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:31,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what that word means. You know a lot. Uh, 1427 01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, you can't be patting yourself on the back 1428 01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:37,880 Speaker 1: all the time, you know, uh, praising the someone's laurels. Yeah, 1429 01:35:37,920 --> 01:35:42,360 Speaker 1: I think laurels and laudatory might have the same route. Uh. 1430 01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:46,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, man, I don't feel reading that book didn't 1431 01:35:46,240 --> 01:35:48,840 Speaker 1: make me ashamed of the South and ashamed of where 1432 01:35:48,920 --> 01:35:52,880 Speaker 1: I live. It let me understand the place that I've 1433 01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:57,240 Speaker 1: chosen to live and raise my family better. Uh, the 1434 01:35:57,360 --> 01:36:00,800 Speaker 1: whole reason, you know what I mean, we have we 1435 01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:05,880 Speaker 1: have talked about some of the ugly stuff, but man, 1436 01:36:06,600 --> 01:36:10,320 Speaker 1: do you know what is powerful? The one thing that 1437 01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:13,240 Speaker 1: we have been given as humans that have a heartbeat 1438 01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:16,839 Speaker 1: and that are alive on the earth as we speak, 1439 01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:21,599 Speaker 1: is that we have the power to craft our future. 1440 01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:29,080 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have to be defined by the 1441 01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:34,200 Speaker 1: atrocities of our past in every way. I mean that 1442 01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:38,200 Speaker 1: to me is the is the power of my human 1443 01:36:38,240 --> 01:36:41,479 Speaker 1: experience that goes back into my faith, Jonathan, is that 1444 01:36:41,560 --> 01:36:45,920 Speaker 1: I am not defined by my past. I am I 1445 01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:51,760 Speaker 1: am being defined by a future that is intentional. I mean, 1446 01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:55,240 Speaker 1: that's part of what this is. I mean, to a 1447 01:36:55,600 --> 01:36:57,679 Speaker 1: white guy and a black guy sitting on a porch 1448 01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:01,400 Speaker 1: joined together, not from hunting, even though that's part of it, 1449 01:37:01,439 --> 01:37:06,320 Speaker 1: but we respect each other. I mean I I trust you, 1450 01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:11,240 Speaker 1: I value you. And I'm not just saying that we 1451 01:37:11,400 --> 01:37:15,160 Speaker 1: get to script where this thing goes from here. I 1452 01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:18,120 Speaker 1: mean just because we started off with something wrecked, and 1453 01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:21,400 Speaker 1: it was wrecked, I mean slavery and all the stuff, 1454 01:37:21,439 --> 01:37:23,519 Speaker 1: and and you know, I mean, and I knew that, 1455 01:37:23,600 --> 01:37:27,439 Speaker 1: but after reading this book, I knew it even more. Um, 1456 01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:30,360 Speaker 1: we started out with something that was wrecked. But the 1457 01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:33,600 Speaker 1: beauty of what we have the power to do is 1458 01:37:33,640 --> 01:37:37,000 Speaker 1: to script our future. And I think what's awesome. You know, 1459 01:37:37,160 --> 01:37:40,479 Speaker 1: the planet is like in total chaos, and I think 1460 01:37:40,520 --> 01:37:43,519 Speaker 1: it would be awesome if the hunting community was a 1461 01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:47,720 Speaker 1: point of light inside of all this, Like what if 1462 01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:50,759 Speaker 1: the hunters? You know, part of what we're all saying 1463 01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:55,040 Speaker 1: is we're trying to reform the idea of the American hunter. 1464 01:37:55,720 --> 01:37:58,680 Speaker 1: I mean essentially saying, hey, we're the good guys that 1465 01:37:58,760 --> 01:38:03,760 Speaker 1: love wildlife. What if we added to that and said, hey, 1466 01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:07,640 Speaker 1: we're the good guys that embrace our brother from a 1467 01:38:07,680 --> 01:38:10,960 Speaker 1: different from a from a different strain of life, from 1468 01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:14,840 Speaker 1: a different culture. What if we weren't the rhyme brother 1469 01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:17,840 Speaker 1: from another mother. I couldn't do. I couldn't do. I 1470 01:38:17,880 --> 01:38:21,640 Speaker 1: couldn't now I do want to end this on a 1471 01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:25,000 Speaker 1: powerful note of redemption, is that the way forward descripted 1472 01:38:25,040 --> 01:38:27,240 Speaker 1: by the individual choices that we make and how we 1473 01:38:27,360 --> 01:38:32,760 Speaker 1: respond to our own site of our own brokenness. And 1474 01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:35,920 Speaker 1: you know, it's okay to say that you're broken, Uh, 1475 01:38:35,960 --> 01:38:39,519 Speaker 1: you know. And and it's okay to say that you 1476 01:38:39,560 --> 01:38:44,400 Speaker 1: don't know. It's okay too, you know, man. And and 1477 01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:49,200 Speaker 1: I think being silent as being complicit. That was something 1478 01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:50,880 Speaker 1: that I thought a lot of this podcast was going 1479 01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:52,600 Speaker 1: to be about, and I'll just mention it here at 1480 01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:56,479 Speaker 1: the end. I mean, the way that we that leaders, 1481 01:38:56,560 --> 01:39:00,559 Speaker 1: people with true courage lead is a they make a 1482 01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:03,360 Speaker 1: difference in the sphere that they have. I mean the 1483 01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:06,679 Speaker 1: sphere that I have. I want to make a positive difference. 1484 01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:10,000 Speaker 1: I want to I want to be a leader that 1485 01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:14,760 Speaker 1: exemplifies uh, personal change. First of all, the finger has 1486 01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:18,080 Speaker 1: to go back to me. It's not pointing at everybody else. 1487 01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:24,280 Speaker 1: That's human transformation starts in individual human hearts. And uh, 1488 01:39:24,479 --> 01:39:27,519 Speaker 1: I think we've got an opportunity inside the hunting community 1489 01:39:27,680 --> 01:39:31,800 Speaker 1: to be to be a point of light in the 1490 01:39:31,840 --> 01:39:34,439 Speaker 1: midst of chaos and the earth with racial tensions and 1491 01:39:34,439 --> 01:39:38,120 Speaker 1: all this stuff. Because I mean part of what The 1492 01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:40,960 Speaker 1: reason I wanted to talk about that book is there's 1493 01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:43,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people that I think that would that 1494 01:39:43,240 --> 01:39:45,799 Speaker 1: would come back into I mean, like, as the world 1495 01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:51,240 Speaker 1: becomes increasingly urban urbanized and urban sprawl and civilization and technology, 1496 01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:55,920 Speaker 1: people are crawling and striving to find something like me 1497 01:39:55,960 --> 01:40:03,120 Speaker 1: and you have in the in wild places. Uh. Anyway, 1498 01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:08,040 Speaker 1: I mean all we can do is is acknowledge that 1499 01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:11,559 Speaker 1: there is a problem. I think that's number one, and 1500 01:40:11,600 --> 01:40:18,160 Speaker 1: then not be silent about it. Don't let something that 1501 01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:25,680 Speaker 1: you could speak out about just go un unsaid, you know. Uh. 1502 01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:28,880 Speaker 1: And I'm talking to I'm talking to people like me 1503 01:40:29,240 --> 01:40:33,920 Speaker 1: that have heard racist stuff, seen racist stuff. Man. And 1504 01:40:34,160 --> 01:40:37,160 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. In my latter years of 1505 01:40:37,200 --> 01:40:41,160 Speaker 1: my life, I have been quite vocal with people that 1506 01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:45,080 Speaker 1: I I could go into details of stories of people 1507 01:40:45,160 --> 01:40:49,559 Speaker 1: that I have had direct conversations with that's like, hey, 1508 01:40:50,439 --> 01:40:54,559 Speaker 1: don't talk that way around me or my children. Yeah, 1509 01:40:54,880 --> 01:41:00,439 Speaker 1: and that takes yeah, heck makes me very uncomfortable, I imagine. So, yeah, 1510 01:41:00,760 --> 01:41:03,559 Speaker 1: but that's the kind of that's just what we gotta 1511 01:41:04,040 --> 01:41:06,120 Speaker 1: that's part of it. It's partly, it's a small part, 1512 01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:09,800 Speaker 1: but it is a part. But now man, I think 1513 01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:13,439 Speaker 1: it's been a good conversation. And again, man, I probably 1514 01:41:13,479 --> 01:41:17,200 Speaker 1: didn't say everything right. I mean, I like and that's 1515 01:41:17,240 --> 01:41:19,160 Speaker 1: where I ask people to listen from a position of 1516 01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:23,559 Speaker 1: charity and and just see our heart intent, you know, 1517 01:41:23,840 --> 01:41:28,759 Speaker 1: my heart inside of this is I think is is 1518 01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:33,360 Speaker 1: is good and uh, you're hard. Inside of this is good. 1519 01:41:34,600 --> 01:41:37,599 Speaker 1: And you know, it's easy for people to be offended 1520 01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:40,040 Speaker 1: at stuff, and people will be offended and that's okay. 1521 01:41:40,479 --> 01:41:42,960 Speaker 1: But aside of maturity is not being offended at every 1522 01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:47,679 Speaker 1: little thing that pecks on your worldview, you know what? No, man, 1523 01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:53,960 Speaker 1: And I think that's all well said, and it's something 1524 01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:56,880 Speaker 1: I've really been thinking about a lot, probably the last 1525 01:41:56,960 --> 01:42:02,599 Speaker 1: year too. Kind of my summation would be that there 1526 01:42:02,720 --> 01:42:07,000 Speaker 1: is no strength without vulnerability, you know. I mean, like 1527 01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:09,040 Speaker 1: like I said, Man, my dad's seventies six years old. 1528 01:42:09,920 --> 01:42:13,120 Speaker 1: You know, he raised me, you know, with kind of 1529 01:42:13,160 --> 01:42:17,080 Speaker 1: old school intentions, you know, like probably stuff that would 1530 01:42:17,120 --> 01:42:20,200 Speaker 1: not fly these days now. He I mean, he's a 1531 01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:23,000 Speaker 1: loving man and he's proud of me, and he taught 1532 01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:28,639 Speaker 1: me a million things. But I say that to say 1533 01:42:28,680 --> 01:42:32,400 Speaker 1: that you know I've got you know, I've got John 1534 01:42:32,439 --> 01:42:35,320 Speaker 1: Wayne ideals within me too, you know what I mean, Like, 1535 01:42:35,800 --> 01:42:38,559 Speaker 1: I pretend that I'm not physically hurt if I am, 1536 01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, in front of my wife or whatever these 1537 01:42:40,840 --> 01:42:46,559 Speaker 1: trappings might be. But true strength comes from vulnerability, and 1538 01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:50,000 Speaker 1: and yes, that works on these these more existential topics. 1539 01:42:50,240 --> 01:42:54,240 Speaker 1: But I mean, think about this. In a war, someone's 1540 01:42:54,360 --> 01:42:57,880 Speaker 1: your buddies laying out there in no man's land. You're 1541 01:42:57,880 --> 01:43:04,000 Speaker 1: gonna go get him right. The only way your hero 1542 01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:08,120 Speaker 1: your heroism, is dependent on you making yourself vulnerable. Now, 1543 01:43:08,120 --> 01:43:12,720 Speaker 1: in that's sense, it's physically vulnerable. But the only way 1544 01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:16,200 Speaker 1: that you can be what you want to do and 1545 01:43:16,200 --> 01:43:17,720 Speaker 1: and put what you want to in the world is 1546 01:43:17,760 --> 01:43:20,720 Speaker 1: to make yourself vulnerable. And I think that's exactly transferable 1547 01:43:21,000 --> 01:43:24,479 Speaker 1: to everything else. You're vulnerable when you push yourself out 1548 01:43:24,479 --> 01:43:27,800 Speaker 1: in the woods past your comfort level. You're vulnerable when 1549 01:43:27,800 --> 01:43:31,000 Speaker 1: you put yourself in a situation that you have to 1550 01:43:31,040 --> 01:43:35,200 Speaker 1: find a way to adapt and grow to exist in 1551 01:43:35,240 --> 01:43:39,120 Speaker 1: that space. And that's can be within conversations, that can 1552 01:43:39,160 --> 01:43:43,519 Speaker 1: be within physical ordeals. Uh. But you know, to me, 1553 01:43:43,800 --> 01:43:48,720 Speaker 1: my ideal of a hunter is a person who is 1554 01:43:50,560 --> 01:43:53,360 Speaker 1: striving to be in balance with their mind and their 1555 01:43:53,360 --> 01:43:59,360 Speaker 1: heart and their body. And that that necessitates being able 1556 01:43:59,360 --> 01:44:03,040 Speaker 1: to be vulnerable. And now I'm talking about balancing that vulnerability. 1557 01:44:03,080 --> 01:44:07,200 Speaker 1: But uh yeah, I think if we can allow ourselves, 1558 01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:11,720 Speaker 1: you know, to show our soft underbelly a little bit, 1559 01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:15,280 Speaker 1: sometimes you're gonna get burned on it. You know, you 1560 01:44:15,320 --> 01:44:18,280 Speaker 1: really will be. And sometimes you're gonna be burned to 1561 01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:21,400 Speaker 1: the point that it's hard to make yourself vulnerable again. 1562 01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:27,080 Speaker 1: But but every wonderful thing comes from vulnerability. Your marriage, 1563 01:44:27,439 --> 01:44:30,760 Speaker 1: the love you have for your children, your family, you know, 1564 01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:34,479 Speaker 1: whatever it is, it all stems from that place and 1565 01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:37,360 Speaker 1: that and to me, it's that idea that strength comes 1566 01:44:37,880 --> 01:44:40,960 Speaker 1: from allowing yourself to not be strong and then you 1567 01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:45,160 Speaker 1: learn how to be. So uh that might be a 1568 01:44:45,200 --> 01:44:47,040 Speaker 1: little bit of a departure, but I really want to 1569 01:44:47,040 --> 01:44:49,120 Speaker 1: bring it back to the to the to the human 1570 01:44:49,200 --> 01:44:52,080 Speaker 1: element and all of this, and uh, well, yeah, I 1571 01:44:52,120 --> 01:44:59,519 Speaker 1: appreciate you, man. Yeah. Well the yeah, that's good man, 1572 01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:06,240 Speaker 1: super good. Well I've only got one thing left to say, 1573 01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:09,160 Speaker 1: do it keep the wild places wild, because that's where 1574 01:45:09,160 --> 01:45:12,200 Speaker 1: the bears live. Jonathan's gonna kill Big BlackBerry this fall. 1575 01:45:12,640 --> 01:45:32,320 Speaker 1: I'll take a little one to play, uh,