Speaker 1: Native Land Pod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership
Speaker 1: with Resent Choice Medium.
Speaker 2: Welcome Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 3: Welcome home, y'all. It is another Native Lamppod Mini Pod.
Speaker 3: I'm Angela Raie. There's Tivity Cross and Andrew Gillim and
Speaker 3: today we are going to ask an age old question,
Speaker 3: can black people be racist? I'm gonna start with Andrew.
Speaker 2: No, you don't.
Speaker 3: He never wants to answer new question comet.
Speaker 2: Only because you know how like I feel like social scientists,
Speaker 2: black social scientists have like this construct of black people
Speaker 2: cannot be racist against themselves because we are not in
Speaker 2: a position of power, and racism is part of a
Speaker 2: structure that is intended to produce a certain outcome, largely
Speaker 2: one that does not include us as a part of
Speaker 2: the beneficiary of Whatever the outcomes are, it should be positive.
Speaker 2: So social scientists tell us one way. But I guess
Speaker 2: if I were thinking about it in Layman's terms, and
Speaker 2: I was just thinking, are there attitudes that black folks
Speaker 2: can have that are negative toward one another based off
Speaker 2: of some things the way they dress, where they're from,
Speaker 2: what's side of the tracks they grew up on, what
Speaker 2: schools they went to or didn't go to. If that
Speaker 2: were the framing, I would say, yes, we can, we
Speaker 2: can demonstrate classes and bigoted opinions. But I just I
Speaker 2: feel like I feel like I'm wrong for even saying
Speaker 2: we could be racist, because I've read so many social
Speaker 2: scientists who say it's impossible what you think? Can we
Speaker 2: be racist? In the traditional construct? Or in the one
Speaker 2: I just made up, which was basically the solitudes about.
Speaker 1: So it's a complicated answer, right, I don't think it's
Speaker 1: yes or no. In the traditional construct, No, because there
Speaker 1: is no construct in which black people went over to Europe,
Speaker 1: kidnapped a bunch of people, raped them, beat the humanity
Speaker 1: out of them, and created this global infrastructure to produce
Speaker 1: their wealth and create a power structure where we would
Speaker 1: have that kind of reach. So in the traditional sense, no,
Speaker 1: I do, however, think yes, there are instances in which
Speaker 1: black people can be racist in which they exercise are
Speaker 1: we I should say, we exercise our power or authority
Speaker 1: over other groups I And I've seen people say things
Speaker 1: can have racist attitudes, prejudiced attitudes about other groups of people,
Speaker 1: the Latino community, API community, indigenous community.
Speaker 4: So the even the Arab community.
Speaker 1: So yes, I don't know if it's racism, but I've
Speaker 1: certainly seen and heard black people in engage in hateful language.
Speaker 1: Not all, of course, you know, but pockets of Black
Speaker 1: people have said and done certain things.
Speaker 4: I don't know. Is that racism or is that prejudice.
Speaker 4: I don't think it's racism, Okay.
Speaker 3: I think that's there's the difference between bigotry and discrimination. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that that is the point. So I want
Speaker 3: to read some definitions, if that's okay.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So Mariam Webster says, the meaning of racism is a
Speaker 3: belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits
Speaker 3: and capacities, and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority
Speaker 3: of a particular race. I fundamentally disagree with that definition.
Speaker 2: But that's what says.
Speaker 3: I believe that race is a fundamental determinant of human
Speaker 3: traits and capacities, and that racial differences produce an inherent
Speaker 3: superiority of a particular race. That feels more supremacy than racism.
Speaker 3: About Okay, This is what I want to go to
Speaker 3: because I think that it is helpful for us sometimes
Speaker 3: to step out of an American construct. This is from
Speaker 3: the Australian Human Rights Commission. Racism is the process by
Speaker 3: which systems and policies, actions and attitudes create inequitable opportunities
Speaker 3: and outcomes for people based on race. To me, that
Speaker 3: is racism. It is structural, it is systemic, and that
Speaker 3: means Black people cannot be racist. I think that black
Speaker 3: people can discriminate. I think that black people can be biggots.
Speaker 3: I think that black people can engage, can even like facilitating,
Speaker 3: engage in a hate crime. I don't believe that black
Speaker 3: people can be racist. I'm rolling with Australian. Maybe that's
Speaker 3: where I get my second citizenship. If this keeps going
Speaker 3: away that I think is going to.
Speaker 2: Average go aheadage, No, I agree, but that's why we
Speaker 2: had to deconstruct it. I think all three of us
Speaker 2: agree that in the traditional construct of racism, which is
Speaker 2: to do with structures, powers, systems, in individual attitudes that
Speaker 2: influence all of it, then no, because we're not at
Speaker 2: the end where we can manipulate and shift those things.
Speaker 3: Okay, So you know, given the fact that I think
Speaker 3: that we're basically agreeing by the definition from the Australian
Speaker 3: who got their nerve to I understand tip, I saw
Speaker 3: you telling me no not to go to Australia. But
Speaker 3: at least they have come to terms with the term right,
Speaker 3: which is better than what we can say over here.
Speaker 3: I think we regularly get in our social media feed
Speaker 3: you racist, you race baiter when we hear those kinds
Speaker 3: of terms, like what does it mean to be a
Speaker 3: race baiter? How would you all respond to, you know,
Speaker 3: either any one of us being called a race bator?
Speaker 4: What does it mean?
Speaker 3: And then what do you hear when when that's dropped
Speaker 3: into your social media comments?
Speaker 1: I get that so often. I gotta be honest. I
Speaker 1: pay no attention. I have zero interests in white folks
Speaker 1: telling me anything about my attitude on race, race relations anything.
Speaker 4: It's just not what does it mean? Tif, I don't
Speaker 4: even know what it means.
Speaker 3: I'm being serious.
Speaker 4: This is a genuine what does it mean to be
Speaker 4: a ras?
Speaker 2: I think what it means is they are hearing you
Speaker 2: say something us say something largely about a inequality that
Speaker 2: exists in the system that makes them uncomfortable, and they're
Speaker 2: basically saying, I've had my trials and tribulations. True too,
Speaker 2: and I don't blame it on race. I blame it
Speaker 2: on you know, a whole other thing before I get
Speaker 2: to race. But you all just seem to when you
Speaker 2: run up against your struggle, your hardship, your lack of
Speaker 2: a promotion, that it happened because you're black.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then here's so here's my question. Now, so
Speaker 4: how does that square was?
Speaker 3: Like you guys have seen the Department of Justice Office
Speaker 3: Civil Rights has said that their new approach is going
Speaker 3: to be focused on defending white Christian men. So if
Speaker 3: race is not a factor, why would they need to
Speaker 3: defend and protect white Christian men? I mean it is
Speaker 3: that to me feels like if there was a race baiting.
Speaker 3: That to me feels like the race bait because you're.
Speaker 2: Trying to toddler crib actually to me, Yeah, why they
Speaker 2: want to put they want to put They want to
Speaker 2: put pads on their children from the earliest possible point
Speaker 2: and a force field around them, so that anything that
Speaker 2: could cause them to think more critically about the role
Speaker 2: that their ancestors may have played and the world that
Speaker 2: we get to live in today, if it offends them,
Speaker 2: if it disrupts their sensibilities or makes them to reflect
Speaker 2: poorly on themselves, or the choices of their ancestors. Then
Speaker 2: that is not something that we want talk to them.
Speaker 2: That is not something we want talk to anybody, because
Speaker 2: why should they have to carry a burden for something
Speaker 2: that they didn't do?
Speaker 4: Yeah, hm, okay.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not a whisperer for white folks. I
Speaker 2: just think a lot of times when I.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it depends on the episode.
Speaker 2: I'm not a whisperer, but I will tell you having
Speaker 2: run for governor and a state, folks are eleven percent
Speaker 2: of the population, and you've got to talk to a
Speaker 2: lot of different people. They're what they really mean. The
Speaker 2: direct speak can come out and often does in these
Speaker 2: comfortable settings where it's just like, but why does everything
Speaker 2: have to be about race? That's a good question. I
Speaker 2: have the same same goddamn question.
Speaker 4: That is a good question, Bran.
Speaker 3: Do don't we feel based on even when TIF articulated
Speaker 3: at the top of this around, like, we didn't go
Speaker 3: to Europe and say, Okay, well you're gonna We're gonna
Speaker 3: come and enslave you and take you over here because
Speaker 3: we feel like, based on whatever bootleg ass research we've done,
Speaker 3: that you would be better conditioned and more suitable to
Speaker 3: be enslaved. We didn't do that, but they did. And
Speaker 3: so from its very foundation, which we of course argue
Speaker 3: sixteen and we should also talk about that sixteen nineteen
Speaker 3: versus seven teen seventy six. The since sixteen nineteen, right,
Speaker 3: that has been the posture that was absolutely about race
Speaker 3: killing the quote unquote savages which are indigenous people people
Speaker 3: from Indian country. That is absolutely based on race. So
Speaker 3: how could they argue anything different or is it just
Speaker 3: like now we're going to gaslight you in a racist history.
Speaker 1: It's even beyond gas lighting. They have penetrated within our community.
Speaker 1: I remember watching Stephen Jackson, a former NBA player at
Speaker 1: the time that Maria Taylor, the whole ESPN debacle with
Speaker 1: Maria Taylor over. I think her name is Rachel Lindsay
Speaker 1: and Steven Jackson.
Speaker 4: No, not Rachel Lindsay, Nichols.
Speaker 1: Is it Rachel Nichols, Rachel Rachel's whoever?
Speaker 3: Rachel was Rachel Nichols, Rachel and sports expert just got.
Speaker 2: Still keep you going, I'm learning.
Speaker 4: I got so much sports knowledge in here. Given all states,
Speaker 4: it was crowding up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, yes, President, Right.
Speaker 1: Stephen Jackson came out and was capin for this white woman.
Speaker 4: And he was like, y'all know, we don't like it
Speaker 4: when it happens to us. And you know, Rachel basically
Speaker 4: should have got this job.
Speaker 1: And I watched with such a disgust because he was equate,
Speaker 1: like these two women were the same. He was equating
Speaker 1: it like something happened to her. And number one, why
Speaker 1: do you feel like your black face and your black
Speaker 1: voice needs to be the one to come out here
Speaker 1: and defend this woman against a black woman?
Speaker 4: The power structure was all wrong, so you up here
Speaker 4: capin to protect white.
Speaker 1: Women because black women were privileged in this situation, Like
Speaker 1: not at all. I thought Steven Jackson looked like a clown.
Speaker 1: And so when I hear things like that, that does
Speaker 1: make me want to scream, like black people can't be racist.
Speaker 1: But when I say black, when I started the conversation
Speaker 1: was like, well, maybe black people can be racist. I'll
Speaker 1: tell y'all, I was thinking about that episode of Insecure.
Speaker 1: I don't know if y'all watch Insecure when Lisa Ray
Speaker 1: do you okay? So Angela, you remember when Lisa was
Speaker 1: volunteering at the or doing her program after school program
Speaker 1: with the white girl and the principal was funneling only
Speaker 1: black students to get all the extra help, and she
Speaker 1: was basically like, Okay, well it's a win. But her
Speaker 1: white colleague was like, yeah, but he's intentionally leaving out
Speaker 1: the Latino students. And she's like, yeah, I get that,
Speaker 1: but we need these numbers, we need a win. And
Speaker 1: she was saying that's racist, and she was like, black
Speaker 1: people can't be racist, and the white girl said, but
Speaker 1: you're using a position of power to deny these Latino
Speaker 1: students access to.
Speaker 4: This, and I ain't gonna lie to me that was right.
Speaker 4: It wasn't.
Speaker 1: The principal was in a position of power in this
Speaker 1: particular situation, as was Lisa, because she controlled the budget
Speaker 1: for the program, and she was kind She wasn't promoting it,
Speaker 1: but she was kind of okay with it the end
Speaker 1: of the episode. I mean, I can give y'all spoilers
Speaker 1: because it's been off air for a while, but the
Speaker 1: end of the episode, she realized like, you know what, No,
Speaker 1: I need to be more inclusive and I do need
Speaker 1: to include Latino students. We had a whole different conversation
Speaker 1: going on right now because right now people are like,
Speaker 1: don't talk to me about nobody else but black people
Speaker 1: because of what happened is past election. And I have
Speaker 1: to say I struggle with that because I have always
Speaker 1: had the Fred Hampton approach, bring along everybody, and we
Speaker 1: are barely fourteen percent of the population. We can't make
Speaker 1: it without allies. So I my harm reduction is how
Speaker 1: can we protect our people black people? But also at
Speaker 1: what point are we right? Because we could take a minute,
Speaker 1: It's fine we pissed off in see election, But at
Speaker 1: what point do we say, okay, now we need to
Speaker 1: identify allies and lock arms and work together. And I
Speaker 1: think we in the throes of figuring that out right now.
Speaker 2: So your cape and comment, Tiffany, and it could be
Speaker 2: applied to so many other examples, but it could it
Speaker 2: be argued that his position was arguing more about from
Speaker 2: a perspective of power than one you know, Steve Jackson
Speaker 2: from the Steve Jackson or give you so I have heard,
Speaker 2: and this is my belief. I think racism runs the
Speaker 2: day up until it runs up against power. And oftentimes
Speaker 2: they are and extrictly be connected anyway, at least here
Speaker 2: in these Americas. But I feel like people see power
Speaker 2: people who they see in power, they analyze what they
Speaker 2: think the type of graph of that person is, and
Speaker 2: when they are on their climb, they emulate that saying
Speaker 2: practice and behavior. You've ever been with a black law
Speaker 2: enforcement officer with a badge, boys in the hood. You
Speaker 2: can go to Maryland, the Maryland Moseby and the prosecution. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Freddy Gray. Absolutely. So. All I'm saying is is that
Speaker 2: these are people. You can't say they don't like black people.
Speaker 2: They may not like black people, but but but essentially
Speaker 2: what is being carried out Wait, I am now in
Speaker 2: a position of power. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Wait, Maryland didn't prosecute Freddy Gray.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, I'm talking about I'm talking about the
Speaker 2: officers who were prosecuted by by yes, the majority of them.
Speaker 2: I think we're black, yes, correct, of those law enforcement officers.
Speaker 2: And what I'm saying is is I think that our
Speaker 2: attitudes behaviors are much more symptomatic of an illustration of
Speaker 2: power and what happens when people ascend to levels of
Speaker 2: power than it has to do with the race construct,
Speaker 2: necessarily when the offender is largely US. I think there
Speaker 2: are models of power that the closer you get to it,
Speaker 2: and God knows if you get it, you start to
Speaker 2: replicate what you believe were the conditions that had the
Speaker 2: last guy in power. And it's through a Eurocentric model
Speaker 2: which all of us have been taught to to talk
Speaker 2: through and to to your point around you can hate
Speaker 2: yourself like a black person can hate on other black
Speaker 2: There's no doubt about that. In fact, Cartigie Woodson talks
Speaker 2: about it in The Miseducation of the Negro. He says,
Speaker 2: and you let him to the back door, you don't
Speaker 2: have to send him. He will go because his education
Speaker 2: makes it necessary. And that's the lasting that's the lasting
Speaker 2: effect of racism is that it's been so successful that
Speaker 2: you get the people themselves to believe what you have
Speaker 2: to say about them.
Speaker 4: It is absolutely the truth.
Speaker 3: I would encourage people to read the Pedagogy of the
Speaker 3: Old Press to hear more about this power structure and
Speaker 3: what happens when we get into it or when we
Speaker 3: reclaim it ourselves. Of course, the biggest fear of white
Speaker 3: folks in power is that one day, when we do
Speaker 3: have the power, that we would do to them what
Speaker 3: they've done to us. So with on that note, the
Speaker 3: resounding answer is no, we cannot be racist. Yes, we
Speaker 3: can be hateful, and let us work very hard to
Speaker 3: overcome hate, because we know that we can't drive sessful
Speaker 3: policy and hate. We can only do that with love.
Speaker 4: So on that we.
Speaker 3: Welcome you all home into our family. Comment on this,
Speaker 3: let us know if you agree with us where we
Speaker 3: got it wrong. Most of it was Andrew today, But
Speaker 3: we love y'all. God bless you.
Speaker 2: Y'all will get to hear it. I'm sorry it's in
Speaker 2: the cut.
Speaker 3: That's not true.
Speaker 2: That's not true.
Speaker 4: We don't do that.
Speaker 2: We don't do that. You're welcome home, y'all.
Speaker 1: Native Land Pod is the production of iHeart Radio and
Speaker 1: partnership with Resent Choice Media. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
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