1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's give a shout out to our 4 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: super producer, mister Max one Hand Williams. Who Ah, who Rah, 5 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: who is Hurrah Otowski? I'm Ben Bullen, You're Old Brown. 6 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: And this is a very very special special episode maybe 7 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: series for us, because Noel, you'll recall back in December 8 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, we had a good friend of 9 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: ours on the show and there was an episode that 10 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: we really wanted to do. 11 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 2: I was already in the bag man, you just didn't 12 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 2: have the time. 13 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: We are making the time, of course, because we have 14 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: a luminary, a returning guest, a member, as you said 15 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: off air, of the Ridiculous History Pantheon, the legendary author, 16 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: the thought Leader, I would say, of all things, ladies, constitution. Yeah, 17 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: this is this is the return of our good friend, 18 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: none other than the puzzler himself, Aj Bahamas Jacobs, Aj. 19 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. 20 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: It's great to be That's the best intro I've ever got. 21 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 3: I'm going to leave beside yourself, illuminary thought Leader, my 22 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 3: ego is huge. I'm going to my trailer, you know, 23 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: I gotta say aj before we get into today's episode. 24 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 4: I thought of you recently. I was in Boston walking 25 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 4: the Freedom Trail, which is like a very constitutionally minded 26 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 4: is he walking tour that takes you through some of 27 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 4: the cool little back old English he kind of you know, 28 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 4: parts of Boston. And the craziest part that happened was 29 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 4: as my friend and I were walking along, having just 30 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 4: seen Ben Franklin's family plot, we see off in the 31 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 4: distance that's very familiar sight and it's a star of 32 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 4: internet meme fame. 33 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: The cop slide. Do you know about the cops Slide? 34 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 3: I don't know about it? 35 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 4: Is so, there was this video that made the rounds 36 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 4: last year sometime where there was this unfortunate cop who 37 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 4: went down this slide for children that's really really tall 38 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 4: and he shoots out of. 39 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: It like a rocket. 40 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 4: The internet went nuts, and there's some guys that I 41 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 4: follow on YouTube the Internet Today Show who conjecture they 42 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 4: have this whole theory thing about how it was because 43 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 4: of his police belt, his utility belts and all the 44 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 4: metal on it that would like totally eliminate friction down 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 4: this metal slide that caused him just to rocket out 46 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 4: of that thing like a bullet. And so me and 47 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 4: my friend were just beside ourselves. It was like seeing 48 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 4: a celebrit And I've made a video of him sliding 49 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 4: down it very gently. 50 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: There was no issue with me, did you slide? 51 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:07,679 Speaker 4: No? 52 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 2: I was not getting stuck in there like Pooh Bear 53 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: in the tree. 54 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 4: No. But I made the video and I asked him 55 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 4: how what was the experience like for you? It's apparently 56 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 4: also a sign at the top that says don't go 57 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 4: down head first. 58 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: The cop also went down head first. Well, so you. 59 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: Get in situations. We also, uh, just for a recap 60 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: everyone previously, AJ, we had you on because very excited 61 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: about your show, The Puzzler Monday through Friday show wherein 62 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: you present all sorts of people with a number of 63 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: spoiler alert, increasingly arcane puzzles over the course of a week. 64 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: Are is there a number? How many are we talking here? 65 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: Is it just your discretion? AJ? 66 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 3: You mean the number of puzzles? 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: The number of puzzles? Is it codified it? 68 00:03:58,400 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 5: Yeah? 69 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 3: Well, it's guesses on for the week, so we have 70 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: we usually give him four or five puzzles one a 71 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 3: day and uh, and Ben Noel is going to be 72 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: on in a couple of weeks. Ben was just recently 73 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: on and he was fantastic. And I told him off 74 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: air that my wife said to me after he was on, 75 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 3: she said, I like that Ben Bolan a lot, and 76 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 3: it was the emphasis was like a little alarming, and yeah. 77 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: Show your wife Ben Bolan's in the house. Thanks guys. 78 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: Well, we also we also want to say that we 79 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: just had such a fantastic time learning about the history 80 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: of crosswords, uh, learning about where Waldo actually is and was. 81 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 4: From Nudity right right children's book uh huh, and my 82 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 4: takeaway at. 83 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: A famous cue by guys. Some of our fellow ridiculous 84 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: historians might be familiar with rubric and all the iterations thereof. 85 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: But one thing we did not get to in our 86 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: previous explorations together was the idea of the ultimate puzzling games, 87 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: the ultimate concept of discerning truth in hidden messages. 88 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 4: And things in plain sight, you know, like important things 89 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 4: dare we say, classified government secrets, you know. And by 90 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 4: the way, I was still excited about doing this one. 91 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 4: I think I accidentally teased it first before the episode. 92 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 4: We actually did and had to take it back. Yeah, 93 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 4: so I've been I've been rare to go for this 94 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 4: one since since December. 95 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, aj, the first one is good. Also, we got 96 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: to keep the Bahamas nickname going and never explain it. 97 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: So the uh I don't know what it means? 98 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: Sure me neither neither, uh so the uh so, the 99 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: h This is our long awaited episode about something called 100 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: read craft spycraft to the uninitiated ag what How would 101 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: you set this up for us? What really drew you 102 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: to this concept as a guy who's an expert on puzzles. 103 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: Well, I yeah, I wrote a book about puzzles and 104 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: puzzles and trade craft. Thank you for teaching me that 105 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 3: that phrase I was, I was saying spycraft like a loser. 106 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: No, No, they're inchangeable. You're fine. 107 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 3: Okay, Well they are kissing cousins. As you said, they 108 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 3: have been a ramp because they both involve deciphering codes. 109 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 3: These you send a secret message and the enemy is 110 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 3: trying to solve the puzzle basically, so this has been 111 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 3: true since the start of spying, So I thought we 112 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 3: could talk a little about that. And then there's some 113 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: that are even more direct crossovers between spying and puzzles, 114 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,799 Speaker 3: like actual crossword puzzles that are involved with spy scandals. 115 00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 4: Oh, I can't wait to get to that one. That 116 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 4: one I was not aware of at all, And I'm 117 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 4: very much aware of the surrounding material, but just not 118 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 4: that particular detail. 119 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: Vague, I know. But we'll get to it, we promise. 120 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 4: But maybe yeah, to start off, I mean, you know, 121 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 4: the term decipher obviously comes from the term cipher, which 122 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 4: I think is also awesome that it's set to stand 123 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 4: in for like hip hop lyrics, like really good flow 124 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 4: because you know, if you're a good MC, you can 125 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 4: hide coded messages in the cadences and in the you know, 126 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 4: not like morse code. But I mean, you know, listening 127 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 4: to good rap is like listening to a story where 128 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 4: not everything is what it seems because there's so many 129 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 4: little things buried. You have to know references, you have 130 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 4: to know certain details about the person's life. There's all 131 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 4: these hidden little things. I just think that's so fascinating 132 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 4: about puzzles in general, but specifically these kind of word 133 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 4: based puzzles. 134 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: Right And by the. 135 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 3: Way, I did recently for some reason search morse code 136 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 3: in pop songs, and there's a list of about some 137 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 3: of them, including Rush. Rush is very famous for their. 138 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 4: Into that numerology stuff. For Rush, those guys are another ancients. Yeah, 139 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 4: and Tool as. 140 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: Well their drummer. Oh and the Journey and Tool both 141 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: have such phenomenally talented drummers that work in such innovative 142 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: ways for their time that I wouldn't be surprised if 143 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: they accidentally wrote entire paragraphs in morse code just doing 144 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: triplets and breakdowns and stuff. 145 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 2: I think you mean Rush and Tool, but I like 146 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: Journey too. 147 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I meant Rush, but I also like Journey, all. 148 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: Right, all three Journey in the same echelon. 149 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: No, no, wait, Nola, you did you stop believing? 150 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: I never stopped believing, and I won't stop believing. 151 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 4: And that song is forever intrinsically linked to the Sopranos 152 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 4: season finale in my mind and the minds of anyone. 153 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: That saw that. Love it all right. 154 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 3: Well, moving from Rush and Toul and Journey to back 155 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 3: to the ancient Roman, they had some of the first ciphers, 156 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: the famous Caesar cipher, which you might have heard of. 157 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 3: This is where you shift one letter three or four 158 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 3: or two spaces on the alphabet. It's probably the most basic. 159 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 3: It's the one you see like if you go to 160 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 3: a chain restaurant and they have the kids' menus, they'll 161 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: have a Caesar cipher for the kids. 162 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 4: So that's also really interesting kind of primer for these 163 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 4: get so much more complex the keys to these things. 164 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 4: So that's actually really helpful for me because I usually 165 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 4: come in hot on like mega complex ones and this 166 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 4: is so above my pay grade. But to understand, this 167 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 4: is sort of the building block for what could then 168 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 4: be tweaked and mangled all kinds of crazy ways. 169 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: Right, this is the one of the most basic, and 170 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 3: you probably know, but if it's a Caesar one, you 171 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 3: move at one space, so A would be b ben 172 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 3: would be CFO, which is interesting, and NOEL would be OPFM. 173 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 3: But you can shift at eight or fourteen, And like 174 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 3: you said, Noel, it's kind of a building block because 175 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 3: then the next level is called a visionnaire cipher, and 176 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 3: that is and you have a bunch of different Caesar 177 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 3: ciphers in the same message and you keep switching between them, 178 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 3: and uh, but there are hundreds of these ciphers. There's uh, 179 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: there's the zig zag cipher. I love that one. 180 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: There's the. 181 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: The Arnold cipher, which gets us back to spying because 182 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 3: that was named after not me. My first name actually 183 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: is Arnold, but it's named after Learning. 184 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 2: I don't mean it's shocked. It's a fine first name. 185 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 3: I don't know, it is not as I mean it 186 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 3: is in the and when we looked at baby books, 187 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 3: it was the list of names that will never come 188 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 3: back in stay. 189 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 4: It's an old person's name. At this point, it's kind 190 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 4: of up there with Ruby, you know. I put it 191 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 4: over a Harold, you know, thank you. Yeah, it was 192 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 4: like Harold and Maudge so much. 193 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: I'll always oh, that's a good one. 194 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 2: That's a good one. 195 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: But Moud's the breakout of that one. 196 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 197 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: But so okay, so this these building blocks. The thing 198 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: that we have to remember as we're hearing this in 199 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four is that, with the benefit of retrosp fact, 200 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: this may sound very easily discernible. This may sound very 201 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: like easy to figure out. You know, you'd say, CFO, 202 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: let me just shift the letters or what. 203 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 2: Have you, because that's because yeah, but that's the hindsight 204 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: talking right. 205 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: So for centuries, for centuries, these kinds of ciphers were deployed. 206 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say, uh with with great success, 207 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: the the Arnold cipher, which I I don't think correct 208 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: me here a j. I don't think Benedict Arnold referred 209 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: to it as the Arnold cipher because that would blow 210 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: up his spot. 211 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 3: I wasn't boasting at the tavern, right, I got this 212 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 3: new cipher called but but. 213 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: So it's already illustrative here the power of the puzzles 214 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: in this way, like the the idea of, as you said, 215 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: the zigs cipher, the basic move a letter, a couple 216 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: spaces kind of thing that baffled people, and it worked 217 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: quite well for many, many centuries. It's just nuts and bananas. 218 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm siting breakfast references too. 219 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing you. 220 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 4: Say, Ben, that's one of your back pocket phrases. I'm 221 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 4: just gonna be a nerd for like five seconds. I've 222 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 4: been getting more into math lately because I've Aju and 223 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 4: I had a lovely breakfast at Barney Greengrass in New York, 224 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 4: and I told you about my modular synth craze, and 225 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 4: within modular synthesis and just synthesis in general, there's a 226 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 4: lot of math, and there's a lot of In order 227 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 4: to make what's called generative music, you use things that 228 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 4: resemble these kind of ciphers, and these shifting things are 229 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 4: something called euclidian sequencing, where you basically set a number 230 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 4: of squares it could be thirty two. Think of the 231 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 4: squares as a step of musical information music that you 232 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 4: have Euclidean triggers, and they're offset from the number of steps, 233 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 4: and as the thing triggers when it triggers, if it's 234 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 4: less and the number of steps, it'll start to make 235 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 4: these weird permutations as it cycles back on it. So 236 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 4: and just there's so much math and all kinds of 237 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 4: stuff in sense, But that really came to mind when 238 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 4: you're talking about shifting those characters. Think of those letters 239 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 4: being placed on a grid and then like shifting everything 240 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 4: around as you have more and more complex permutations. That's 241 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 4: when things really get like incredibly difficult and complex, right. 242 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and absolutely, like you say, it can be visual, 243 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 3: it can be. The zigzag cipher is one where you 244 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 3: have to arrange them in a certain way. And by 245 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 3: the way, they are not even the basic ones. Okay, 246 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 3: the caesar cipher's not bad, but the Visionaire cipher is 247 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 3: pretty hard to crack, and the way you attack them 248 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: is they still use the same method now, which is 249 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 3: frequency analysis, because some letters in the English language are 250 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 3: common and some are not, right, like E, like e exactly. 251 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 1: My mother for a very long time was an educator 252 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: and one of her favorite little riddles to give children 253 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: was what is the most common word in the English language? 254 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: I love it? 255 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 3: Right, So I'm guessing it's the Oh you nailed it? 256 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: Wait, who show is this? 257 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 3: So I'm a puzzle expert, y, you are a puzzle expert. 258 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 4: And frequency analysis that's something I mean you wouldn't have 259 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 4: to have computers necessarily to do that, right, This is 260 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 4: something that could be done by hand. 261 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 3: Right, I mean it is much better with computers because 262 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 3: then you get to the second level of frequency analysis, 263 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 3: Like certain letters are often next to each other, so 264 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 3: you know, you might see a lot of g h's, 265 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 3: but you don't see a lot of gzs or qus, right, all. 266 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 2: Of these things that would help you out very much. 267 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: And wordle when. 268 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 4: You're trying to like figure out what the word is, 269 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 4: You've got a number of squares, what are the ch 270 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 4: you know which ones are you going to cross off 271 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 4: your list first, you know, those are first go to attempts, 272 00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 4: kind of those sorts of things. 273 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, to get the vowels at least in the English language. 274 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: And and of course the problems or the not the problem. 275 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: The question changes depending upon the language, especially if it's 276 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: a non Latin language. Can you imagine a cipher a 277 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: Caesar cipher in Mandarin that boggles different. 278 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 2: Rules though, right, And I think you can have that 279 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: as well. 280 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, that you could have something. 281 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: Like that, but it would be very hinetic version that 282 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: It's fascinating. 283 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 3: I remember I once I once visited Iceland, and I 284 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: remember playing scrabble in Iceland and it was hilarious because 285 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 3: the j's and the z's were like worth two points 286 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 3: or one point. And so yeah, it definitely depends on 287 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: what alphabet you're using. 288 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: So sore buddy Benedict Arnold has has this cipher that 289 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: he is using to communicate with British forces or their 290 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: proxies U during what turns out to be like one 291 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: of the biggest judas Ariot like moves in American history. 292 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: Could you could you tell us a little bit about 293 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: how one of the few bad bends of history Uh 294 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: was able to was able to do this, Like why 295 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: did he do it, how did it work, and what 296 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: was the end result. Obviously the other bad bend is 297 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: Benito Mussolini. 298 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 2: Other than his friends. 299 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 3: I don't know if we had, but yeah, yes, so 300 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: Benedict Arnold of course, uh became a spy for the British. 301 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 3: And I actually listened to one. I don't think it 302 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: was your podcast, but some podcasts was trying to sort 303 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 3: of do a little revisionist history and rehabilitate him a little. 304 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: I don't know if I buy that, but anyway, he 305 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 3: he was talked about him recently and I think we 306 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 3: were trump I was, at least to a point trying 307 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 3: to see both sides. 308 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: It gets to a point in his his Uh, he. 309 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: Got he got passed over from promote. 310 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: He didn't get a promotion, which he does ad he 311 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 3: probably deserved it. 312 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 2: So then he turned fully to the dark side, you know, right, 313 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: so pretty uh irredeemable. 314 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 3: And there's well, there's also the Yoko Ono conspiracy like 315 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 3: that it was sort of his wife, who was very loyalist, 316 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 3: who was the one who turned him. 317 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 2: So it was. 318 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: Agree she was the same Yoko Ono from the Beatles, 319 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: by the way, Benedict Arnold was her first project, and 320 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: then the Beatles and then hook performance. 321 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 3: No one's the things you learn the things you learn. 322 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 3: Well anyway, the Arnold ceipher is is done when both 323 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 3: the spy and the person he's communicating with have the 324 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 3: same exact book. So it could be the Bible could 325 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 3: be pride and prejudiced. And each word in the secret 326 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 3: code is clued with a three number code. So say 327 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 3: the code you get the first part of the code 328 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 3: is twelve nine seven. That means the first word is 329 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 3: on the twelfth page of the ninth line, of the 330 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 3: seventh word on that line. 331 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 4: So the words in the books are just kind of 332 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 4: your like literal magazine cut out, like kidnapping letters right right. 333 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 3: Like refrigerator magnets. You're creating a little a little poem. 334 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: A predecessor of the one time Pad, which I'm sure 335 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: we'll get to, right. 336 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I actually don't know the one time pad. 337 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm very fun at parties, so we'll get there. 338 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: We'll get there. 339 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: But so, okay, so he's got so we've got a 340 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: shared like to Nole's point about hiding a puzzle on 341 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: plane sight. We've got a shared common publication that people 342 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: can read like the same the same version of Bible 343 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: or something. And then you've got we've got essentially a 344 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: code directing you where to pull certain letters or certain 345 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: certain words, or just letter by letters. 346 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 3: It could be either. I actually used this what I 347 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 3: wrote a book about puzzles, and I figured book. 348 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: About what are dude, are you into puzzles? 349 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 3: I'm just trying to in case you're just tuning in. 350 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 3: But I wanted to include a secret code in the 351 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 3: in the book, and I decided I should do the 352 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 3: Arnold cipher. So my book does have an Arnold cipher. 353 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 4: Goofed about doing that in our book, but you know 354 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 4: how books go. You got to write them and then 355 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 4: they tell you you got to turn it in yesterday, 356 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 4: and then you don't have time anymore to do clever 357 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 4: little tricks like that, or maybe you do because you 358 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 4: had a better relationship with your publisher. But we did 359 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 4: talk about that, Ben doing some little easter eggs hidden 360 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 4: with page numbers or whatever in the footnotes and just 361 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 4: didn't quite happen. 362 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: But glad that you got it across the sad I 363 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 2: did well. 364 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 3: I was so nervous, like what if I messed the 365 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 3: code up? And I will say this, if you're listening 366 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 3: out there by, please buy the paperback version of The Puzzler, 367 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 3: not or because the hard Fact does contain an error. 368 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: And I just feel horrible about out it because it's 369 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 3: I print a bunch of puzzles and one is called 370 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 3: the World's Hardest KenKen Puzzle, and somehow there was a 371 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 3: printing error and the world's Hardest KenKen Puddle is actually 372 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 3: impossible to solve the way it's printed. So I just 373 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 3: feel horrible, and I've sent out about four long apology notes. 374 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 3: You know, I'll give you your money back. 375 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: I really appreciate that. 376 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 4: I think it's a little overkill personally. But you have 377 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 4: a reference for puzzles, man, you know, like, nope, we're 378 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 4: recalling all of them. 379 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 3: No, I should have. 380 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: Publisher that book. By the way, folks, for anyone playing 381 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: along at home, it is a must read. It is 382 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: called The Puzzler, One Man's Quest to Solve the most 383 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: baffling Puzzles Ever. There is a hilarious jigsaw competition anecdote 384 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: you can check out in our previous episodes. 385 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I got a jigsaw like coaster kind of situation, 386 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 4: like a mini Yeah, and we use it all the time. 387 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: It was a big hidden in the Brown households. 388 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 3: Oh I love it. Yes, this is a one piece 389 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 3: jigsaw puzzle which you can buy online. 390 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: But AJ did did nascent Us authorities ever bust the 391 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: Arnold cipher? 392 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: Did they solve it? 393 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: Like? 394 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 3: While he was question I should listen to previous Ridiculous 395 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: History episodes to figure out how he was busted because 396 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 3: I cannot remember. Do you remember anyone how he was busted? 397 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 4: He was? 398 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: Uh, let's see. So I don't think it was necessarily 399 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: the cipher itself. 400 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: It was some intercepted something. 401 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: Something was intercept Maybe it's also it was in general 402 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: his sketchy, resentful activity that gave him away. 403 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 3: Well, it is an interesting point when you are at 404 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 3: war and you decode, you crack the code of the 405 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 3: other person, how much you have to be careful about 406 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 3: letting on that you've cracked the code. And that was 407 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 3: huge in World War Two, which we'll get to in 408 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 3: a moment, but with the when we cracked the Nazi code, 409 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 3: we had to sacrifice certain uh ships or battles because 410 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 3: we didn't want to let on too much so. 411 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 4: There're a thing where we even like had a cadaver 412 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 4: with certain information in this pocket that was like the 413 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 4: wrong information that they There was a film about that 414 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 4: and with Benedict Cumber Badge meat. 415 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: I can't remember, but okay, operation Min's meat. 416 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 4: Max tells us yes in the operation meh no to 417 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 4: your point of the levels that you have to go 418 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 4: to the depths to cover your tracks to make sure 419 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 4: the enemy doesn't know that you know what they know? Right? 420 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? 421 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 4: Uh what? 422 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: It's also what what do we call it? Sometimes collection 423 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: methods like you don't want people to know to Knowle's point, 424 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: how you know a thing right and you want to 425 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: feed some false information. Uh, funny side stories with that 426 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: in addition to in addition to framing cadavers, basically they 427 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: also they also had a thing where like the reason 428 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people in the West believe that carrots 429 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: are great for your eyesight is because it was a 430 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: myth spread to access forces to sort of downplay advances 431 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: in aviation and surveillance. 432 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 3: I love that story, and I actually that was one 433 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 3: that I did know, and it is great because it 434 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 3: is Yeah, they invented radar or sonar. I can't remember 435 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: which one the British did, and yeah, they said, well, no, 436 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 3: it's all because we eat carrots and that's why we 437 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 3: have night vision and it's the best thing for the 438 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 3: carrot industry. Ever, so I'm for your other show on conspiracies. 439 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 3: I'm wondering if the carrot industry is sort of lobbied 440 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 3: to make this happen. 441 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: Big carrot is by far the number one sponsor of 442 00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. 443 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 4: It is known. It is literally just a big carrot 444 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 4: with like an anthropomorphic carrot with eyes and a mouth 445 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 4: like from an old Fleisher cartoon, you know, menacingly rubbing 446 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 4: his green hands together. 447 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: There is there is, there's our garret. And so so 448 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: we know that we know that Benedict Arnold is is 449 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: a common touch point, right, It's something that most Americans 450 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: will go about. Indeed, I would say most people in 451 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: the Western world are on some level aware of the 452 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: skull duggery that Arnold engaged in. But you set up 453 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: something quite beautifully at the beginning of our conversation today, 454 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: AJ where you said crosswords might also be part of 455 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: trade craft. And I know this is a shout out 456 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: for any of our fellow ridiculous historians who have been 457 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: playing a crossword and maybe like your bait or mainhoff 458 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: comes out and you're thinking, is this crossword tried to 459 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: tell me something like this? Why is this getting increasingly specific? Right? 460 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: Well, like you said, I mean, we've been talking more 461 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 3: generally about how puzzles and tradecraft are kissing cousins, but 462 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 3: there are several times when they are more than kissing cousins, 463 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 3: when the overlap is completely direct. So one of my 464 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 3: favorite puzzles of all time is the crossword puzzle that 465 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 3: saved the Free World. Maybe a little overstated, it helped 466 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: save the free world. Let's just throw it say it 467 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 3: that way. And this happened in nineteen forty two. The 468 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: British newspaper The Daily Telegraph printed a particularly tricky crossword 469 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: and it said that the people who solved the crossword 470 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 3: in twelve minutes or less would should contact the number. 471 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 3: And that number turned out to be Bletchley Park, which 472 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 3: is the hood breaking operation in World War two that 473 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 3: famously broke the Nazi enigma code and helped us win 474 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 3: the war. A huge key and and of course you've 475 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 3: covered him before. I loved your episode on Alan Turing thanks. 476 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 3: So yeah, this this was a recruiting a secret recruiting 477 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 3: tool for Bletchley Park. Were these crossword puzzles? And I 478 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 3: will say they were not your average This was not 479 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 3: your average cross This was a super tricky crossword puzzle. 480 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: Did you did you play it yourself? 481 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 3: I did, and I did not solve it in twelve 482 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 3: minutes or I could not solve it in. 483 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: Call yourself a puzzle expert? Were calling park right now? 484 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 485 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 4: By the way, when we did talk about this episode, 486 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 4: I just I think I commented that Bletchley Park is 487 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 4: the most British sounding name for a place ever of 488 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 4: all time. And I swear that I've already said that 489 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 4: I wouldn't do it again. But modular sent people love 490 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 4: Alan Turing. There's a module that's very popular called the 491 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 4: Turing Machine, and it is a random voltage generator. It 492 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 4: basically is like a way of generating random pulses of 493 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 4: information that can be interpreted by different Since you know, 494 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 4: it's all in honor of Alan Turing, who is a 495 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 4: huge person in mathematics and AI and attack of all kinds. 496 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 3: Hero hero and now instance I didn't even know. 497 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: And also, by the way, just the way British culture 498 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,719 Speaker 1: tends to struggle with good names for food and dishes. 499 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: Bletchley Park might as well be like some kind of 500 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: bread that they made. 501 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 3: Really does sound something you'd have at high t a 502 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 3: little ually and Marmalade. 503 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: Park. 504 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 4: Wait, so this, this crossword puzzle was like a secret 505 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 4: Jeopardy audition kind. 506 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 3: Of exactly it was, and I, as we said, I 507 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 3: did not solve it. We are very happy that World 508 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 3: War two did not rest on my shoulders. But but 509 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 3: let me just I want to give you and the listeners, 510 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 3: let me just give you one example if I could, 511 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 3: just to show you how tricky these things are, because 512 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 3: British crosswords were and still are famous for their wordplay, 513 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 3: their anagrams, palindromes, puns. 514 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: Clever Brits, they are so clever the language or something. 515 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: And everything, but again naming food right exactly. 516 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 3: So here, let me give you seventeen across and and 517 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 3: well I'll walk you through it because there's no way 518 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 3: I would have gotten this without hints. All right, So 519 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 3: the clue is it's a six letter word, and the 520 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 3: clue is is this town ready for a flood? Is 521 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 3: this town ready for a flood? Six letter. Oh you 522 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 3: got it. 523 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: No, I'm just appreciating the the artistry. 524 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean I'm assuming that it's not going 525 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: to be the name of a town. 526 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 3: Well, let me walk you through it. What do you 527 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 3: think of when you think of a flood? I think 528 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 3: of like, yeah, most famous flood are sure? 529 00:28:58,920 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? All right? 530 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 3: So yeah, noah, And as you said, what did he 531 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 3: do to get ready for the flood? He had an arc? 532 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 3: But if you're ready, you don't want an old arc, 533 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 3: you want well exactly, I think it was Newark, England, but. 534 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: Whatever, whatever I prefer. 535 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 3: But yes, so that that's the kind of level of British. 536 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: Let me give you this. 537 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 3: Let me give you two more of these. 538 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 4: We had the the ammunition, Ben and I. And to 539 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 4: get there though I know you again, hindsight is a thing, 540 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 4: but almost you know, if we it's one of those things. 541 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 4: It's also to be appreciated that it kind of requires 542 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 4: you to follow your intuition and to trust yourself and 543 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 4: not to like second guess things. 544 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 3: And yeah, you did say it was a town, you 545 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 3: did say at the beginning. Well, next time I'll just 546 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 3: let there be dead air and give no clues and 547 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 3: we'll just wait. 548 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 4: For I actually said, I bet it's no out of town. 549 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 4: But now there are certain things in the parlance of 550 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 4: crossword where you know a certain thing when it's said 551 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 4: in a certain way, and a clue is a true thing, 552 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 4: sure what the solution is going to be like otherwise 553 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 4: the rules would be it'd be impossible right to kind of. 554 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 3: Like we talked, there are definitely rules. 555 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: We talked about the evolution of crossword nomenclature, little things 556 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: that are now universal, Like if there is an abbreviation 557 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: as a clue, then there is an abbreviation in the 558 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: answer right. 559 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 3: Action, so you have two more Well these are not 560 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 3: from that puzzle, but they're the same kind of British puzzle. 561 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 3: So for instance, this is a very famous clue. It's 562 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 3: just the whole clue is gigs g E G S. 563 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 3: That's the whole clue, and the answer is going to 564 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 3: be a two word phrase nine letters, four letters, so gigs. 565 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 3: You know, when I first saw this, I was like, 566 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 3: what is a gig? I don't know what a gain? 567 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 3: It sounds like something in the. 568 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: Sine cockney rhyming slang kind of situation or something. 569 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 3: Well, now that's interesting, you say, rhyming, but think of 570 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 3: they like rhyming, but they also like anagrams a lot. 571 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 3: So if you rearrange something eggs, but what kind of 572 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 3: eggs are they? Grambled eggs, crambled eggs. Nice, Yeah, exactly, 573 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 3: really good at this. 574 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: You're definitely helping us out. 575 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 3: A little bit, a little bit, a little bit of 576 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 3: saved the world. 577 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 2: But you know, but but I only mentioned Cockney rhyming slang. 578 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 4: Is that, in and of itself, is a puzzle where 579 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 4: you'll say, like, we're in I think I got this 580 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 4: one from one of the Ocean's movies Oly Love and 581 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 4: where the character says we're in Barney and he goes 582 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 4: rubble trouble, Barney's trouble. But that's a example a puzzle, 583 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 4: kind of rock, kind of Cockney ryming. 584 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: As a as a as an actual MC person, the 585 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: thing that bugs me about Cockney rhyming slang is they 586 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: have no respect for meter or syllable count. They'll just 587 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: go with the thing that rhymes. 588 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 2: Ben is the breaking rap. Pretty good, thanks. 589 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: Man, but definitely Nola and I need your help on 590 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: these pretty fascinating and pretty storied crossword clues. For anybody 591 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: who listened to our previous episodes with AJ. I think 592 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: it was before we moved to your third British Crossword AJ. 593 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: Can you remind the good people here of the crossword 594 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: clue that was called like the most famous or best 595 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: of all time and you said it was kind of mids. 596 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 3: Well, I think maybe it was Will Schwartz's favorite of 597 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 3: all time. That's the which is pretty good. I'm certainly 598 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 3: better than anything I've written, but it was I believe 599 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 3: this turns into another story. This turns into another story. 600 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 3: Was the clue and the answer was a two word 601 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 3: phrase and I guess I'll say it. You can paunt spires, yes, 602 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 3: viral staircase, spial staircase. 603 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: Which I still that wouldn't stuck in my head. 604 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 4: Sometimes well, your mind immediately goes to like a page 605 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 4: in a book or something right, and that's where the 606 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 4: twist is, you know, because if you're focusing on that 607 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 4: wrong thing, which is where they get you, then you're 608 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 4: going to just spin yourself out right, and like you 609 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 4: can really get my opic and lose objectivity with these things. 610 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 4: So it really is a great exercise to kind of 611 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 4: elasticize your mind, you know, and think in different directions. 612 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: For stuff you know. 613 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 3: Exactly, well exactly, you have to look at it in 614 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 3: a different way, whether it's a different meaning or a 615 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 3: different arrangement. So, for instance, the other very famous British 616 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 3: crypto crossword clue is this. It's the whole clue is 617 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 3: h I, J K l M And oh, just all 618 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 3: those words in a line, all those letters in the line, 619 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 3: H I, J K l M N. 620 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 2: It's the alphabet. 621 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 3: But I don't know, right, but where does it start? 622 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 3: Where does it start? It starts at G No, no, h, 623 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 3: I said, sorry, eh. 624 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: Oh, so we're doing numbers here, we're doing nothing. 625 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 3: No, no, Just what letters at the beginning and what 626 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 3: letters at the end? Right, So it goes from H 627 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 3: to water water exactly water. 628 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 2: I'm being an adult. It's eight was the last one, 629 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 2: and that is yes. 630 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 3: The clue translated to H two O and then the 631 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,919 Speaker 3: answer is a five letter word. 632 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:29,959 Speaker 2: It's water. Very clear. 633 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: So there you go. 634 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 2: So this requires several permutations, right to get that. 635 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 1: Yes, So this really was a This actual nineteen forty 636 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 1: two crossword in the Daily Telegraph was an actual ad 637 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: for intelligence or cryptography operators. 638 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 3: Yes, a secret recruiting tool and and who knows how 639 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 3: many of them were recruited that way, but it was 640 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 3: a four for good. On the other hand, there's another 641 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 3: crossword puzzle in World War Two that I want to 642 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 3: talk about that was the exact opposite. It was an 643 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 3: agent of chaos. So are you ready for the second 644 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 3: big crossword scandal. Well, this was also in the same newspaper, 645 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 3: the Telegraph. Three years later, in nineteen forty five. They 646 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 3: printed a series of puzzles in the days leading up 647 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 3: to D Day, and these puzzles caused a national security crisis. 648 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 3: They caused a frenzy because the problem was the answers 649 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 3: to Several of the answers in those crossword puzzles were 650 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 3: top secret code words related to D Day, like a 651 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 3: crazy number like beyond. 652 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: So no possible coincidence. There's somebody knew something or well, it's. 653 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 3: Still debated whether it was. 654 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: Let me. 655 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 3: But listen to some of these words that appeared. You ta, 656 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 3: which was a beach in the invasion Omaha. Another beach 657 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 3: Neptune was Mulberry where the floating harbors. And this one 658 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 3: weirdest of all was overlord. 659 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 2: That's a weird one. 660 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not an regular word, you see, And. 661 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,439 Speaker 1: Unless you're really into che yeah, or less or unless 662 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: you make jokes about corporate overlords. But that's the one 663 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: that really scratches behind the ears of my stuff. They 664 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: don't want you to know overlord. With the rest of 665 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: the very. 666 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 4: Specific choice, it feels like the use of that one 667 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 4: is become more of like a shorthand, like for nefarious evil. Now, 668 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 4: but I wonder how it would have been used in 669 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 4: conversation back in those days. 670 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was clued as big wig and but it was. 671 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 3: But overlord is is the actual code name for the 672 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 3: whole D day. It's like the number one. So the 673 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 3: British Secret Service notice this or someone alerted them to it. 674 00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 2: And round up these nerds. 675 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly what they did. 676 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, they and everybody everybody at this point is I 677 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: don't know, crosswords a very mainstream in British society at 678 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 1: this point, right, So it would have it would have 679 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: immediately been public knowledge, right, a worrisome thing. It's not 680 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: like it's not like this showed up on a niche 681 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: reddit forum and got two up votes. It's now, uh 682 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: something the entirety of the Kingdom is putting together. So 683 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: now everybody knows on some level, these like five words 684 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: in relation to each other. But another thing about puzzles 685 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 1: and codes is like knowing the words doesn't really matter 686 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: if you don't know the context. 687 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 2: They're like what they're referring to. So I can understand 688 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 2: them freaking out a little bit, but it's not like 689 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 2: the jig was up all of a sudden. 690 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, but they had to find whomever made this and 691 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: figure out if they were German. 692 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 2: Well they did, okay, so they. 693 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 3: Did actually round up the nerds, or one nerd in particular, 694 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 3: the headmaster of. 695 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 2: A school that is nerdy right here in the outlet. 696 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 3: Listen, I am a nerd, so I feel I can 697 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,399 Speaker 3: throw it around recognized nerd. 698 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 2: That's right. 699 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 4: So he was. 700 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 3: He was arrested and he was brought to London and 701 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 3: they interrogated him extensively. 702 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 5: And sorry, I'm laughing because I pictured like a picturing 703 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 5: the old school, like old school heart boiled true crime 704 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 5: procedurals where there's a chair in a harsh white way 705 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 5: mirror and some guy in a powdered wig walks out 706 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 5: and goes, what's the oting. 707 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:45,879 Speaker 4: I guess I'm also a picture. I mean, I don't 708 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 4: know not to be morbid about it. But do you 709 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 4: think they would have roughed him up a little bit? 710 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 2: Perhaps? 711 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 3: I'm guessing this guy he's a headmaster of like, uh, 712 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 3: he's gonna still, he's gonna, he's gonna tury over and 713 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 3: as well. Right, the Leonard Daw that's his name, and 714 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,839 Speaker 3: poor Leonard was interrogated, but he eventually they let him 715 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 3: go because they decided it really was a weird coincidence. 716 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: It is. 717 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 4: Uh. 718 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 3: Yet the twist is, and this may be this better 719 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 3: for your other show that there is still speculation that 720 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 3: it was not a coincidence, so it's still debated. One 721 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 3: theory is that DAWs students he uh used them to 722 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 3: help him construct the crosswords that is that is known. Yeah, 723 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 3: he did a little outsourcing, okay, But the school happened 724 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 3: to be nearby a base and so the theory is 725 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 3: maybe they were uves dropping and overheard the soldiers chatting. 726 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 2: And it is an elaborate fu or what what are 727 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 2: we like? Why do that? Though? 728 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 3: Even in that circumstance, that's a point, Yeah, let's try 729 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 3: to screw our country and also a goods. 730 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,399 Speaker 1: Also, we do know, Agadden, with the benefit of retrospect, 731 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: that the war Old of British academia was would end 732 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: up being pretty heavily compromised. 733 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 3: I really know that. 734 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is that part you know, when you go 735 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: when you go look at like the Cambridge Ring and 736 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Again, nothing occurs in a vacuum. I 737 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: do like this theory, AJ, because it does sound like 738 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: a cool teacher who's saying, hey guys today. Is it 739 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 1: like his version of the substitute teacher who plays a 740 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: movie and says, hey guys today, instead of worrying about 741 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: you know, math or whatever, we're going to work on 742 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,439 Speaker 1: a crossword together. And then these these students are going 743 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: My favorite words are omaha, utah, neptune, mulberry and wait for. 744 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,879 Speaker 2: It, overlord, overlord. How about that one? Right every one? 745 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 2: What was it a big wig? 746 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:52,479 Speaker 4: Yeah? 747 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's Barry bart Simpson. But luckily it did not 748 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 3: cause the D Day to fail because that wouldn't have 749 00:40:59,200 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 3: been as funny. 750 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 2: I know that was that one was kind of important. 751 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 2: They made some movies about that. 752 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: They should take a couple Yeah, no, AJ, I think 753 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: it's fair for us to ask at this point your 754 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: your personal take. Now, with great respect, you've all obviously 755 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: been very careful not to make any kind of like 756 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: hyperbolic claim. You're proposing one common theory with this, But 757 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 1: if we could, if we could get inside your mind 758 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: a little bit, my friend, do you think it is? 759 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 3: Uh? 760 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: What's the line between like coincidence and conspiracy? 761 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 3: Right, it is a great question. I would guess my 762 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 3: I would say seventy percent chance it's a coincidence, thirty 763 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 3: percent chance they there was something. Maybe it's funny, maybe, 764 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 3: but it is. I mean, one thing you notice when 765 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 3: you work with puzzles or and or history is just 766 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 3: how much noise there is and how good we are 767 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 3: as humans at finding the signal in. 768 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 2: The patterns, pattern recognizing beings. 769 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 3: Exactly after Fenia. That's one of my favorite words I learned. 770 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 2: You know about that. 771 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 3: They yeah, the it's the ability to find patterns that 772 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 3: do not exist, and we are very good. 773 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 2: So it's being cuckoo bananas basically exactly. 774 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: And with that we are going to pause. We're going 775 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: to call this part one of the Puzzler teaches the 776 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: gang trade craft because we got some unpleasant messages from then. Essay, Uh, 777 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: that just asked us to pump our brakes a little bit. 778 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: So so We're gonna We're going to take a brief pause. 779 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: We are going to continue this story later this week. 780 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: In the meantime, aj Bahamas Jacobs, thank you so much 781 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 1: for coming back onto the show. Where can people learn 782 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:55,359 Speaker 1: more about your work? 783 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 3: Ah well, I love being on the show. It is 784 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 3: a joy. I love listening, so now get to listen 785 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 3: to myself. Please tune into The Puzzler, the Daily podcast 786 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 3: featuring Ben Bollen and soon Noel Brown. I'm scared, No, 787 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 3: don't be scared. 788 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 4: You you are. 789 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,280 Speaker 3: I'm very easy with the hints, sokod time, I'm very gentle, 790 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 3: lead me by the nose. Yes, there you go, so please, yes, 791 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 3: tune into that. 792 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 4: And in the meantime, huge thanks and wishing well are 793 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 4: our nemesis Jonathan Strickland, the quister, who is on the 794 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,359 Speaker 4: mend after not feeling super well lately, so we hope 795 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 4: to see him back very very soon. 796 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: Yes he is, as I'm sure everybody's first question will be, 797 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,359 Speaker 1: is he still doing those obnoxious puns? The answer is yes, 798 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: and you'll hear them on air. Thanks thanks also to 799 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 1: our super producer mister Max Williams, his biological brother and 800 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,879 Speaker 1: the composer of this Bop and soundtrack. Mister Alex Williams nol. 801 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,399 Speaker 1: We got a cavalcade of people to thank real quick. 802 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 4: Oh, of course always thanks to Chris frosciotis here in spirit, 803 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 4: along with Eve's Jeff Codes and boy, I don't know. 804 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 4: I don't know about a laundry list, but you count 805 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,839 Speaker 4: for at least five humans in the weight that your 806 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 4: thank you kats at the end of this program. 807 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,240 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, we're doing credits like the Electoral College. 808 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 1: Well well, five, thanks you, five, thank yous to you 809 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:24,720 Speaker 1: as well, mister Brown. We're extremely excited to explore trade 810 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:30,760 Speaker 1: craft with you Aja in an upcoming episode. Oh my gosh, 811 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: can we do spoilers? There's a puzzle the CIA cancel. 812 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. 813 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 814 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.