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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece, a city gripped in fear

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Speaker 1: as the body count grows one, two, eight, twelve, seventeen, eighteen,

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Speaker 1: twenty one, twenty eight thirty. Many of the dead young boys.

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Speaker 1: All I can think about right now are my children

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Speaker 1: and my son John David. What was going through the

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Speaker 1: minds of all of these parents when on that day

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Speaker 1: their son didn't come home. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 1: Fox Nation and Serious XM one eleven. A period of

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Speaker 1: months drag on and on no answers as to who

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Speaker 1: was kidnapping and murdering little boys and young men across

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Speaker 1: the city of Atlanta. With me an all star panel

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Speaker 1: to make sense of what we know right now. But

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Speaker 1: first of all, take a listen to this. It was

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Speaker 1: a phrase uttered by a local television anchor that haunted

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Speaker 1: parents in Atlanta's neighborhoods. It's ten o'clock. Do you know

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Speaker 1: where your children are? Twenty nine children and young adults

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Speaker 1: were killed. The carnage became known as the Atlanta Child murders.

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Speaker 1: More than two dozen were killed or missing, most of

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Speaker 1: them children and mail between the ages of nine. And

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Speaker 1: twenty eight years old. One child vanished after another never

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Speaker 1: seen alive again. Their bodies found across Metro Atlanta strangled suffocated.

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Speaker 1: The first two discovered on August seventh, nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: By August the following year, the bodies of seven more

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Speaker 1: victims were found. Two teen boys were the first victims.

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Speaker 1: Fourteen year old Edward Hope Smith was missing for seven days.

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Speaker 1: He was last seen at the Greenbriar skating rink. Alfred Evans, thirteen,

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Speaker 1: had just graduated seventh grade. He was missing for three

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Speaker 1: days after disappearing from Eastlake Meadows Housing Project. Their bodies

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Speaker 1: were found in a wooded area off Nisky Lake Road,

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Speaker 1: southwest of downtown Atlanta. The location was just two miles

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Speaker 1: from where Smith was last seen. How did it all start?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to what went down in July July

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Speaker 1: twenty eighth to be exact. You were just sharing our

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Speaker 1: friends at crime online dot com and XIA. Now listen

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Speaker 1: to our friends at CBS. On July twenty eighth, a

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Speaker 1: woman was walking along this wooded road looking for aluminum

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Speaker 1: cans to turn in for money. When she approached this embankment.

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Speaker 1: People often dump things from passing cars. Here at the

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Speaker 1: bottom she saw a body which had also presumably been

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Speaker 1: dumped from a car the previous night. It was fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old Edward Smith. He had left home eight days

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Speaker 1: earlier to go to a skating rink. He had been

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Speaker 1: shot to death nearby laid the body of his friend,

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old Alfred Evans, He had disappeared on his

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Speaker 1: way to the movie three days earlier. Police were unable

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Speaker 1: to say how he was killed. With me and Alstar

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Speaker 1: pound to make sense of what we know right now

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Speaker 1: with the body count rising, people living in fear, not

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Speaker 1: letting their children go outside for fear the children, especially

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Speaker 1: the boys, would be snatched off the street. The district

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Speaker 1: attorney's office was in a tumult with me, high profile

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Speaker 1: lawyer joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Joseph J.

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Speaker 1: Drouet a author of the Pursuit of the Atlanta Child Killer, Facts,

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Speaker 1: Fibers and Forensics on Amazon. Now, now that's the title,

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Speaker 1: Joseph drol The Pursuit of the Atlanta Child Killer, Facts,

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Speaker 1: Fibers and Forensics. Before I go to the rest of

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Speaker 1: our All Star panel, I want to go to Joseph

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Speaker 1: Drole first. Drole. Do you remember the first time you

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Speaker 1: ever saw a dead body? Yes, I do. When was it?

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Speaker 1: It was when I was with the District Attorney's office

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Speaker 1: when I first started, and we went and watched an autopsy.

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Speaker 1: Oh the good old days at the more watching autopsies,

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Speaker 1: the good old days watching out auntapsy and seeing Saniel

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Speaker 1: good may get through. It's one thing for you or

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Speaker 1: I to see a dead body, because we're used to

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Speaker 1: it now. I remember the first time I saw a

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Speaker 1: dead body in my official capacity as an assistant DA

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Speaker 1: along with you, and I will never forget it as

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Speaker 1: long as I live. But for people in Atlanta to

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Speaker 1: just look over and see a little boy that goes

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Speaker 1: missing from a skating rink and there you look down

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Speaker 1: and you see a dead body. That's a shock to

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Speaker 1: a civilian. It was a shock, I think, Nancy, to

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Speaker 1: everyone that continued unabated for a long time, to the

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Speaker 1: point that it became a frightening and terrifying I think

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Speaker 1: for everybody in the Atlanta metropolitan area. And then somehow,

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Speaker 1: Joseph J. Drole, you ended up as one of the

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Speaker 1: five very brave lawyers to take this on, joining me

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Speaker 1: a longtime friend and colleague, former Deputy Chief of Police

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Speaker 1: in the APD, Lou Archangely, Lou, it's great to hear

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Speaker 1: your voice again. I know you recall the fear and

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Speaker 1: the terror under which everybody was living in Atlanta. Describe

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Speaker 1: it for our listeners that were not there when it

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Speaker 1: all started. Oh, it was. It was horrible because of

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Speaker 1: the uncertainty. At one point there were five In November

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Speaker 1: of that year, there were five children missing at the

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Speaker 1: same time, all of them between ten and fourteen years old,

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Speaker 1: you know, And of course the real tragedy is one

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Speaker 1: of these children, Darren Glass, has never been found. His

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Speaker 1: body is still missing. You know, I can't even imagine that,

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Speaker 1: Lou Archangelo. Every day, every night on the news, you

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Speaker 1: see another child missing. You said five were between did

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Speaker 1: you say nine and fourteen? That was at one point

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Speaker 1: there were five children missing at the same time. But

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Speaker 1: for months there was four missing, three missing, and then

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Speaker 1: ultimately the last wanted to be found was Nathaniel Kat

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Speaker 1: was an adult. He was jumped in the river because

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator evolved evolved. Yeah, and that's very unusual, you know,

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Speaker 1: to doctor Todd m Bar pathologists joining us. He testified

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Speaker 1: in the Shawn great serial killer case. Doctor Barr, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. People believe that serial killers

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Speaker 1: never change their m O, their modus operandi, their method

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Speaker 1: of operation. So when you see some little boys strangle

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Speaker 1: Dad and then another victim ends up in the water

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Speaker 1: the Chattahoochee, to be exact, many people go, oh, that's

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Speaker 1: not the same killer because there's a different m That's

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Speaker 1: not true, doctor Barr. Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely not true.

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Speaker 1: I've worked on a couple of serial killer cases, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I think the term evolution is an appropriate term.

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Speaker 1: I've seen them go from you know, strangulation and they

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Speaker 1: keep the same modus operandi to uh, you know, uh

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Speaker 1: strangulation with with the evolution to burning them in a car,

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Speaker 1: that type of thing. So, uh yeah, you can't just

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Speaker 1: jump to conclusions if it's not the exact same motive operation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: perfect example, Joseph J. Drala. We had a then lawyer

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Speaker 1: in our office, Henry Newkirk, that had been a cop

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Speaker 1: in Florida during the Kyo killings. Remember Ted Bundy. Ted

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Speaker 1: BUNDY'SMO changed drastically. He went from picking people up at

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Speaker 1: the beach or in his Volkswagen to clubbing them dead

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Speaker 1: in their sorority house. So that's a perfect example of

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Speaker 1: how m's method of operation can change for serial killers, right, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a Joseph gla. I think also the

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Speaker 1: profile is that the FBI said that the serial killers

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Speaker 1: do they change based on the circumstances. And then this case,

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Speaker 1: of course, the changes including dropping bodies in the river,

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Speaker 1: were because evidence was being found the fibers that could

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Speaker 1: identify the killer, and suddenly bodies started showing up in

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Speaker 1: the river without the clothes on. Wow, Joseph, when you

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Speaker 1: say that again one more time about how the MO

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Speaker 1: change after it got out about the fibers. Right, The

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Speaker 1: fibers started being noticed, and by the early spring of

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Speaker 1: the second year, the Georgia Barreau of investigation knew what

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Speaker 1: they were looking for. They were looking for a location

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Speaker 1: that had a green carpet that had some sort of

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Speaker 1: violet acetate fiber on some item, and it had a dog,

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Speaker 1: probably a German shepherd that got out into the newspapers.

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Speaker 1: This was in February and from then forward most of

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Speaker 1: the victims ended up in the river. Jimmy ray Payne

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Speaker 1: was wearing only his shorts red cotton shorts. Nathaniel Cat

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Speaker 1: was naked. Guys the body count rises take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our friends at crime Online and CBS. Two more

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Speaker 1: victims would be found that same year. Nine year old

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Speaker 1: use Of Bell's body is discovered in an abandoned elementary school.

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Speaker 1: His body had been stuffed in a crawl space. Bell

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Speaker 1: was last seen getting into a car on October twenty first.

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Speaker 1: Not quite a month later, the body of fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old Milton Harvey was found discarded on a road in

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Speaker 1: Fulton County. Harvey had actually gone missing before Bell. He

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Speaker 1: was last seen on his bike September fourth, but his

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Speaker 1: body wasn't discovered until November. In November, two more bodies

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Speaker 1: were found. Fourteen year old Milton Harvey was found on

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Speaker 1: the fifth Well. He's unable to say how he died,

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Speaker 1: and three days later, nine year old Yusef Bell. He

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Speaker 1: had been strangled. Nineteen eighty came and children continue to

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Speaker 1: disappear and die. All were poor. All disappeared from shopping

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Speaker 1: centers which they frequented in hopes of picking up some

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Speaker 1: change by helping people with their bags. Not all, but

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Speaker 1: most were street kids from single parents are broken homes.

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Speaker 1: All but two were boys. Ages range from seven to sixteen.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. I want to go to

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Speaker 1: Verne Smith, a special guest joining us, formerly Newsweek Atlanta

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Speaker 1: bureau chief and national correspondent, author of The Jones Men. Verne,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. My pleasure the fact

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Speaker 1: that the children were taken in various ways. Some were

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Speaker 1: riding their bikes, others were on the street, and that

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Speaker 1: they were found in so many different places. One stuffed

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Speaker 1: in a crawl space in a band and in elementary school,

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Speaker 1: others in the water and the Chattahoochee. Others are tossed

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Speaker 1: off by a road. That makes it even more difficult.

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Speaker 1: What do you recall? You know, the thing that lingers

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Speaker 1: for me. You know, something that's been mentioned earlier is

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Speaker 1: the what it felt like to be in a situation

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Speaker 1: where there is an unknown terror of literally stalking the community,

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Speaker 1: and so that the sense of just panic and regular

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Speaker 1: citizens not trusting people that previously they had not thought

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Speaker 1: anything negative about it, just kind of had this kind

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Speaker 1: of paralyzing fear of the unknown, which which I think

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Speaker 1: is just something that you have to kind of experience

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Speaker 1: to understand what that was like. You know, Joseph's drew away.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even let my children out the door with

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Speaker 1: this going on, That's true, and most people kept their

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Speaker 1: children home. And that's why I think the ages of

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Speaker 1: the victims started going up because it was more and

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Speaker 1: more difficult that and a curview that was imposed made

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Speaker 1: it very, very difficult to find the younger children. So

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Speaker 1: the ages of the victims started climbing as the cases

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Speaker 1: went on and they increased in frequency. What do you

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Speaker 1: recall about it, Former Deputy Chief Police APD. Lou Archangel, Well,

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Speaker 1: the terror extended far beyond Atlanta. I mean, people that

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Speaker 1: I knew in Alabama were concerned and we're bringing their

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Speaker 1: children in. But even though there was never any evidence

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Speaker 1: that the killings spread beyond metro Atlanta, but even I

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Speaker 1: mean Paris, France had things in the newspaper, had articles

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Speaker 1: in the newspaper about missing children. Children have a special

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Speaker 1: place in our heart, and when they're victimized anywhere, it

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Speaker 1: strikes fear everywhere. I'm just thinking back, Lou, about the

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Speaker 1: witness that looks over and sees a dead little boy. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I actually saw one of those victims in the morgue,

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Speaker 1: and what struck me was. It was so little and

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Speaker 1: so skinny. I mean it it was hard to watch.

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Speaker 1: Even as a homicide detective. It was hard to see

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Speaker 1: the body of a young child. What was going on

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Speaker 1: amongst it Atlanta homicide during all of this, well, at

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Speaker 1: first they didn't recognize the pattern because everything was changing.

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Speaker 1: We had victims that were shot, stabbed, undetermined, asphyxiated, and

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Speaker 1: so there was confusion at the start of the case.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately they figured out the pattern that was similar

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Speaker 1: was the age of the victims and it was all

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Speaker 1: children up for the first year of this all children

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Speaker 1: take Listen to our friends at CBS. They have died

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Speaker 1: in many ways, shot, staff, ludgeon, but most all of

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Speaker 1: the recent ones have been strangled or asphyxiated. In some

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Speaker 1: cases the bodies were laid out in full view on

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Speaker 1: their backs with arms and legs extended. Others have been

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Speaker 1: thrown down an embankment, into a river under a building.

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Speaker 1: There are things that suggest drugs, sexual deviation, or cult ritual.

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Speaker 1: There are many theories, but nobody is in jail. The

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Speaker 1: tension and the terror mounting throughout the city of Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: and beyond what you were hearing in the background, there

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Speaker 1: was funeral footage of one of these little boys, and

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Speaker 1: I keep thinking about what former Deputy Chief lou archangel

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Speaker 1: I just said seeing the little boy's body, how tiny

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Speaker 1: and skinny he was. To doctor Jorry Krasen, joining US

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Speaker 1: psychologist faculty Saint Leo University, an author of operations, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Jory Crawsen, thank you for being with us. Who in

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Speaker 1: the world would stab a little boy or shoot a

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Speaker 1: seven eight nine year old little boy? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I always look at behavior, and we heard the term evolved.

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Speaker 1: What I really see in research shows it's a maturation. Okay.

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Speaker 1: It starts out like you look at where the children

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Speaker 1: were taken from, and that's kind of a predatory hunting style. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's no force, you know, it's not like it's a

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Speaker 1: blitz attack. There's got to be some means of an

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Speaker 1: interaction and maybe even get the victim to willingly come

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Speaker 1: with you to a certain point before you initiate the

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Speaker 1: process of killing them. To Joseph J. Droli, former prosecutor

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Speaker 1: and author of a brand new book, The Pursuit of

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta Child Killer, Facts, Fibers and Forensics. It's an

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Speaker 1: incredible work. Joseph Drole it's on Amazon right now, Joseph.

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Speaker 1: Were the boys sex assaulted before they were murdered? No,

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Speaker 1: there is no evidence of that. Of the research certainly

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Speaker 1: a sexual component. Take Lost Our Friends at NBC. Aaron

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Speaker 1: Jackson Junior was among the youngest, only nine years old.

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Speaker 1: Luby Jeter was fourteen, Timothy Hill thirteen, Patrick Valtazar eleven.

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Speaker 1: For almost two years, the bodies have kept coming out

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Speaker 1: of Atlanta's rivers and woods, and week after week police

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Speaker 1: speak of sorrow but not a solution. At Police Task

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Speaker 1: Force headquarters, there are twenty seven faces on the wall,

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Speaker 1: twenty six murdered, one missing the killer. There was a

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Speaker 1: handful of sketches. No one the same wasn't certain to

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Speaker 1: be the person police want. Almost a year after the

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Speaker 1: task force was set up, police can't answer food before why.

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Speaker 1: They don't know how or where, or even how many

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Speaker 1: of the victims may have been killed by the same person.

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Speaker 1: One investigator says, even if the killer walked in the

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Speaker 1: door and confessed, there is not enough evidence now to

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Speaker 1: convict him. Lou Arc Angeuly, former Deputy Chief of Police APD,

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Speaker 1: what at that time of the killer walked in and confessed,

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Speaker 1: You guys didn't have enough to convict him. Oh, that's

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Speaker 1: not true at all. That was a perception in the

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Speaker 1: public and that was certainly reported. But Larry Peterson at

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Speaker 1: the crime lab and the Fulton County Medical examiners and

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Speaker 1: others had found significant evidence evidence like what they had

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Speaker 1: dog hair, They had fibers. They had the unique whelming

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Speaker 1: Trilobal carpet fiber that was very unique that was shown

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Speaker 1: up on it eventually showed up on twenty of the victims.

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Speaker 1: Carpet fiber. Yes, hold on, I'm going to circle back

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Speaker 1: to Joseph Droul on that speaking of fiber, listen to NBC.

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Speaker 1: The killer seems to taunt police and read press clippings

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Speaker 1: I feel well publicized but feudal search along the road

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Speaker 1: in an outlying county. The next child strangled with a

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Speaker 1: rope was dumped there, and when a suburban police official

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Speaker 1: criticized Atlanta's investigation, a child choked to death was left

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Speaker 1: just inside that official's county line. After a press report

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Speaker 1: that police had found fibers on some of the bodies,

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Speaker 1: Six of the last seven victims have been dropped into rivers,

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Speaker 1: all stripped to their undershorts or less, possibly to wash

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Speaker 1: away evidence. Okay, Joseph Droule, the fiber is what linking

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Speaker 1: all of these boy victims together. Nancy. It is significant

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Speaker 1: that the Larry Peterson went to a number of the victims'

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Speaker 1: homes and paint fibers and did exclusionary evidence. You can't.

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Speaker 1: They never ooomed anything. They wanted to know the source

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Speaker 1: of the fibers, and they had to make sure that

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Speaker 1: these fibers weren't in a common part of the victims environment,

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Speaker 1: that these fibers all came from the same environment as

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator. You know, lou archangel He just says something

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Speaker 1: so important because, as you will remember, Joseph Drola, when

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Speaker 1: I tried cases, I would not only try to put

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Speaker 1: together my case, but to anticipate what the other side

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Speaker 1: was going to say and destroy it before they could

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Speaker 1: even say it. And that's exactly what you're saying, Archangelly

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Speaker 1: that once this fiber connection, these very unique fibers were

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Speaker 1: found on multiple victims, not all, but many of them.

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Speaker 1: How many, Joseph had the same fibers on them, Well,

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Speaker 1: fifteen had the Wellman fiber, twenty one had the vialid ascetate,

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Speaker 1: and eighteen had the dog hairs. But the beauty of

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Speaker 1: this is grow outlines so well in the book. It's

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Speaker 1: crystal clear how the fibers are tied together, how the

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Speaker 1: crime lab collected them. How do you do that, doctor,

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Speaker 1: bar How do you get fibers off a body? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that you can't see them. They're visible to

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Speaker 1: the naked eye, right, And we have these stereotactical microscopes

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Speaker 1: that we look at the bodies with if we're looking

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Speaker 1: for certain types of trace evidence that you can actually

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Speaker 1: zoom in and take a very close up look with

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Speaker 1: these these high powerful microscopes, and you can detect these

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Speaker 1: fibers and then collect them and preserve them. The fibers

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Speaker 1: in this case, Nancy, were obvious enough that Larry Peterson,

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Speaker 1: as he went to scenes, he would see them in

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Speaker 1: the hair and on the clothing of the victims and

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Speaker 1: pull them off and place them on slides to take

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Speaker 1: back to the lab. So they and many of them,

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Speaker 1: number of fibers you know, that were it was obvious

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Speaker 1: that wherever they were immediately prior to death, you know,

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Speaker 1: this was the source of the fibers on them, their

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Speaker 1: carpet fibers. You said, the violent fibers and the dog

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Speaker 1: here showing up one on twenty one victims one on

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Speaker 1: eighteen victims can't be ignored it. As lou Archangel points out,

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Speaker 1: investigators would then go to the victims family home, take

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Speaker 1: fibers from their carpet, around their home, bedspreads, and so

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Speaker 1: forth to make sure these fibers weren't from the home

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Speaker 1: to rule that out. Verne Smith joining US former Newsweek

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Speaker 1: Atlanta bureau chief and national correspondent, When did you first

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Speaker 1: find out? Do you remember finding out the coincidence and

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Speaker 1: of course there is no coincidence in criminal law that

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Speaker 1: these same fibers were on multiple victims. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: the local newspaper for the the Ajac, the Land Journal Constitution,

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Speaker 1: first broke that story. But UM, some of the forensic

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Speaker 1: um investigators privately we were saying that they were finding

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Speaker 1: links in the later Barty body. So UM for much

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Speaker 1: of of of seventy nine and eighty, uh, the official

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Speaker 1: police word was that, UM, they didn't know whether they

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Speaker 1: were all, whether we were, whether we were looking for

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Speaker 1: multiple killers or single killer. UM. And so for for

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Speaker 1: a while we were under that assumption that they weren't connected.

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Speaker 1: But that was really a stunning moment when you know

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Speaker 1: it was revealed that there was in fact an and

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Speaker 1: you know another thing about the fibers based on what

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Speaker 1: Verne Smith just says, doctor Jory, we hear that as

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Speaker 1: soon as it comes out, as it's led out, which

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Speaker 1: I wish it hattened men that fibers were involved, suddenly

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Speaker 1: the body start turning up naked. So this is a

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Speaker 1: very cunning killer. Yeah, that's part of that maturation and

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Speaker 1: changing of operation. You know, he's learning as he's I

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Speaker 1: guess progressing is the word that I would use, But

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Speaker 1: that's the maturation process and serial killers. Take listen now,

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Speaker 1: a big break in the case. Take us in our

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Speaker 1: friends at truth. The surveillance of Atlanta's bridges pays off

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Speaker 1: a policeman. Here is what could be a body hitting

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Speaker 1: the water. According to the record in the case, three

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Speaker 1: o'clock am in the morning, Robert Campbell, who was a

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Speaker 1: young police recruit under the bridge, her displash and then

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Speaker 1: so lights come on on a vehicle, and so the

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Speaker 1: vehicle slowly began to move in a southerly direction across

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Speaker 1: the bridge. Wayne Williams admits he was on the bridge

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Speaker 1: that night, but he says he did not stop and

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Speaker 1: did not throw anything into the river. When the police

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Speaker 1: followed and stop him near the bridge, Williams cooperates fully.

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Speaker 1: They questioned him some more, searched the car, and then

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Speaker 1: they let him go. Three days later, on May twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: the body of Nathaniel Cater was found less than a

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Speaker 1: mile down stream from the Jackson Parplay Bridge. The oldest

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Speaker 1: victim yet twenty seventh was found in the Chattahoochee River.

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Speaker 1: With this discovery, the authorities decide that Wayne Williams is

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Speaker 1: the prime suspect. You know, help me out here, Joseph

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Speaker 1: Drew Lay. He has just come out with a book

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Speaker 1: who actually worked this case? A landmark case when the

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Speaker 1: first times fiber evidence of this magnitude had been used

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Speaker 1: in court. Fiber evidence of this ilk Joseph. So you've

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Speaker 1: got Wayne Williams and meetings on the bridge the night

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Speaker 1: a victim is thrown over the side of the bridge,

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Speaker 1: a dead victim. Luckily, somebody, either you guys at the

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Speaker 1: DA's office or you guys lew Archangel at APD, had

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Speaker 1: the brilliant idea to start surveiling bridges. It paid off.

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Speaker 1: This cop actually hears the splash he's sitting there in

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Speaker 1: the dark. He hears a splash and then lights turn

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Speaker 1: on and there he goes a car and the cop

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Speaker 1: sees it's Wayne Williams. I mean he sees the car,

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Speaker 1: doesn't he. Joseph and he didn't see the car. He

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Speaker 1: saw the lights and her radio. Freddy Jacobs, who was

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Speaker 1: at the end of the bridge and the bushes. Freddy

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Speaker 1: leaned out and said, there's a car. It's coming from

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Speaker 1: a stop position right up against the rail and has

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Speaker 1: coming toward me. He watched that car then come toward

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Speaker 1: him and make a U turn in a gravel parking

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Speaker 1: lot at the end of the bridge, where he was

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Speaker 1: seen there by Officer Holden, who was in a catch

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Speaker 1: car and holding pulls in behind him as he heads

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Speaker 1: back north over the bridge, so he backtracked. He dropped

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Speaker 1: the body, goes to the end of the bridge, turns

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Speaker 1: around and heads back the other way. Nancy, What's significant

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Speaker 1: about the bridge was we all thought it was a mistake.

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Speaker 1: When doctor Howard mentioned that he had fibers linking several

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Speaker 1: of the victims. We thought, oh my god, why would

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Speaker 1: he release that. Well, as it turned out, it was

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Speaker 1: that release that compelled Wayne Williams to dump Aaron Jackson

398
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Speaker 1: under a bridge. Patrick Baltazar dumped under a bridge, but

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Speaker 1: those two didn't even hit the water, they just landed

400
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Speaker 1: on ground. Well, then he of course matured. As the

401
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: doctor said, Curtis Walker was found in South River Jojo

402
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Speaker 1: Bell in the South River. Doctor Howard, by leasing that

403
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: fiber link compelled the perpetrator, Wayne Williams to start using bridges.

404
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: And then the FBI came up with the idea of

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Speaker 1: investing a huge amount of manpower to put four cups

406
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Speaker 1: on every bridge along the Chattahoochee and South rivers. And

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00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: on the very last day of the surveillance is when

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Speaker 1: Wayne Williams, because he was now using bridges, he was

409
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Speaker 1: more concentrated. We could stake it out and that's what

410
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Speaker 1: led to his arrest, to his contact with police on

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Speaker 1: the bridge. For those of you that worked intimately on

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Speaker 1: the case, lou Archangel, Joseph dro La Verne Smith who

413
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: covered it, what was being done to the little boys,

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Speaker 1: if they were not being sex assaulted, what was happening,

415
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Speaker 1: Joseph Drola, They were being mostly strangled, and I think

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Speaker 1: you know there was one one victim that got away

417
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Speaker 1: a young man who was up by Wayne Williams in

418
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: the middle of the night breaking into newspaper boxes to

419
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: steal the change. And Williams took this young man, drove

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00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: him around, asked him various questions, then asked him if

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00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: he wanted to make some money, asked him if he

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00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: had money, where he still rent touched his penis, and

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00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: then william said, I need to get something out of

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Speaker 1: the back of the car, and he went got out

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Speaker 1: of the car, and this young man got the heck

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00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: out of there and ran and was able to testify

427
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: a trial about that. Williams targeted these people. They were

428
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: all vulnerable young people out on the street, many of them,

429
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: and he told many many people that these people shouldn't

430
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: be on the streets. So I guess he thought he

431
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: was doing the police a favor by getting kids off

432
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: the street by killing them. That he expressed sentiments something

433
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: along those lines. There were four or five I have

434
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: witnesses at trials have testified about that that he said

435
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: exactly that kind of thing that he would then, you know,

436
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: would then mostly strangle these young men and then disposed

437
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: of their bodies. They never were found where where they

438
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: were killed. They were placed different places along roadsides in

439
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: certain positions. Uh. Some laid out very very carefully. Some

440
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: had ritualistic little stab wounds on them. A number of them,

441
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: in addition to dying of asphyxia, had been struck in

442
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: the head, so he may have subdued them at some

443
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: point prior to, uh to killing them by by asphyxia.

444
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: Fun stories with Nancy Grace. I want to talk about

445
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: Lane Williams and I want to talk about this fiber evidence.

446
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: Joseph Drewe. It's all laid out in your brand new book,

447
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: A Blockbuster Hit, The Pursuit of the Atlanta Child Killer Facts,

448
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: Fibers and Forensics. It's on Amazon right now. Joseph, question,

449
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: after all the fibers that were detected on the bodies

450
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: and on their clothing when there was clothing on them,

451
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: to where did the fibers relate? I mean, where did

452
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: they connect, Where did they from? Where did they come? Well,

453
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: the Carbet fiber was wald wall carbet in the William's home.

454
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: When the police and Larry Peterson, the prime lad of

455
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: people went with the surge warrant on June third, they

456
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: go to the home and they find a home that

457
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: is wall to wall in this green fiber. English olive

458
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: was the color of green English? What English olive? So

459
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: you still remember English? Yes, absolutely, And it's this unusual

460
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: trilobal fiber with the short one short leg and two

461
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: long legs. They go in way William's bedroom and there

462
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: is a violet ascetate bedspread which is interwoven with green

463
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: cotton fiber, and of course that's being found on the victims.

464
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: They look in the backyard and there's a German shepherd dog.

465
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: So they have found the source of the fibers that

466
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: they are finding on so many of the victims. Joseph,

467
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: how do you believe the fibers got onto the victims?

468
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: Did he actually bring them to his home? I don't

469
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: think so. He could have, but it is more likely that,

470
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: like the witnesses that we had, that he lured them

471
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: into his car and the car as he would track

472
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: things from the house into the car, and his family,

473
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: his mother and father would track everything in the house,

474
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: would track into the car. So what the crime lab

475
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: people discovered was on the floors of the car. It

476
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: was if you swept up what was in there, you

477
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 1: would find fibers from all the different things in the

478
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: house that would yield fibers, so bathmats and rugs and

479
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: carpets and blankets, all of that would be found in

480
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: the cars, so they didn't have to actually be in

481
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: the house and most probably they weren't, Nathew. This is

482
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: this is the theory of transfer that your doctor guests

483
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: can refer to. Every time there's an interaction physical interaction,

484
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: something's left and something's taken. And in this case, when

485
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams was smothering these children, and there were over

486
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: six hundred fibers introduced to trial, nine different types, and

487
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: ultimately they even found human hairs on the body of

488
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: Patrick Baltazar that were linked by BNA to Wayne Williams.

489
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: But yet people still insist, there are people that insist

490
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams is in a set. Take a less into

491
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: our cut. Four WXIA prosecutors ultimately tied Williams to the

492
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: depths of twenty two victims through carpet fiber evidence and witnesses.

493
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: Not everyone believed his guilt. There were doubters. I don't

494
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: believe why william did it. I really don't believe that

495
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: he did it. In two thousand and five to cab

496
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: County Police Chief Lewis Graham reopened by cases in his jurisdiction,

497
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: but nothing to exonerate Williams came from it. To this day,

498
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 1: Joseph J. Drole, people insist Wayne Williams is innocent. Now,

499
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: there were thirty murders. We believe Williams was convicted on

500
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: a handful of those. There's a movement afoot to have

501
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: evidence reexamined from the other victims. But my question to

502
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: you now, Joseph, is what other evidence links Wayne william

503
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: to many of the boys murners. Well, there were a

504
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: variety of things as linked. I mean, you had eyewitnesses

505
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: of various kinds, and of course we presented ten other

506
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: murders at the trial, so there were twelve murders actually

507
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: proven at the trial. So you had that there were

508
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: victims who had fibers from different cars that Lame Williams drove.

509
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: And this is in addition to the constant fibers from

510
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: the home, which were probably in the car. There were

511
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: also the fibers from the car, and there were fibers

512
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: from thirteen different cars. Thirteen different victims should I say,

513
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: had fibers from the cars, and as Williams would change cars,

514
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: the fibers would change as that were found on the victims. Interesting,

515
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 1: So all of this was leading back to Wayne William's

516
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: home and his cars and a very very unique carpet

517
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: analysis and carpet fibers. Isn't it true, Joseph Droua, that

518
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams injected himself in the media business TV radio

519
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: and he would somehow be the first stringer on the

520
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: scene of a crime, getting video before any other TV

521
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: crew would get there, right, and he had scanning equipment

522
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: in this car. A lot of people thought he was

523
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: a police officer, and the first car that we linked

524
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: to him was a Plymouth car that he had decked

525
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: out as a police car with a blue light, with

526
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: police radio, scanner, the whole works. So he knew what

527
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: was going on, and many people thought he was a

528
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: police officer, that he had a police jacket that was

529
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: discovered after the trial. And then he moved on to

530
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: being a TV person, a cameraman, a stringer, as he said,

531
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: and that put him at the scenes of things. Lou Archangel,

532
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: did any of the cops notice that this guy Wayne Williams,

533
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: who sometimes dressed up like a cop, kept showing up

534
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: the first one on every crime scene obviously because he

535
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: knew about the crime scene before anybody else. But did

536
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 1: anyone put that together? No, they didn't. He actually showed

537
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 1: up on one of my crime scenes. But he worked

538
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: for WSB. He would sell footage of fires and wrecks

539
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: and homicide crime scenes to WSPTV. But he was a

540
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: frequent He was frequently present at crime scenes and he

541
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 1: had a police scanner. Who is this guy, Joseph Droleet.

542
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: I know, he's an only child. Both parents were teachers,

543
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,479
Speaker 1: and they doated on him. I mean they even set

544
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: up his own radio station in the home. That's correct,

545
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: And so he was very much a child who his

546
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: parents would do anything for. And he was in many

547
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: ways controlling of his parents, and a lot of evidence

548
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: of that came out during the case that he ordered

549
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: them around and what why why? What? How would he

550
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: order the parents around? There are testimony at trial even

551
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: yelled at them once and said, you know, you'd better

552
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: not come home and things like that because they wouldn't

553
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 1: rent another car for him. Uh. There were evidence of

554
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: him assaulting his father. So there are a lot of

555
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: things where they created, you know, this child who who

556
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: dominated them? Did they help cover up evidence? Do you think, Joseph, oh,

557
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: I certainly think they knew a great deal more than

558
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: they let and his mother, I think he would say

559
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: live for him at different times, including a trial. His

560
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: father had to know a great deal more than he

561
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: ever said. And they covered for Wayne completely, you know.

562
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: They they tried to back up his story about this

563
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: Cheryl Johnson, this phantom woman that was never found that

564
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: he planned he was out looking for when he was

565
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: when he was stopped on the bridge or near the bridge,

566
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: I should say, was there a circumstance where the father

567
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: was destroying evidence in the backyard. Yes, and we don't

568
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: know exactly what it was. They were photographs that were

569
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: burned in the barbecue pit, black and white photographs. All

570
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: that was left. It was the remnants of them. And

571
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: he couldn't tell actually what was in there. But they

572
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: hadn't done that apparently after Wayne Williams was stopped on

573
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: the bridge and he went home, and I think some

574
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: of the neighbors had had even said that there was

575
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: something something burning out in the barbecue pit in the backyard. Joseph,

576
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 1: what was a lot sitting in that courtroom with our

577
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: boss Lewis Layton and a team a brain Trust trying

578
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: this case. Well, it was. It was something that was

579
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: completely engrossing and I could think of nothing else from

580
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: the time I got involved in the case until the

581
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: flial was over. And of course it has continued to

582
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: be something that has come up repeatedly over the last

583
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: forty years as evidences looked into. It was reopened in

584
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: two thousand and five. It was DNA testing. There's been

585
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: movies about it, and more recently, former Mayor Kesel Lance

586
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 1: Bottoms had asked the police department in the DA's office

587
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: to look into it again. They've been doing that for

588
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: three years. Nothing has changed. There's nothing that would indicate

589
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams is not guilty. What about some client that

590
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: the clan? I hadn't even say the word it's involved. Yeah,

591
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: that was another interesting development. Two years after the trial,

592
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: the director of the GBI came to the office and said,

593
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: there's something I got to tell you. During this investigation,

594
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: we also investigated the clan and we did a separate

595
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: investigation in March and April before Wayne Wims was ever

596
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: even a suspect, and we had them under surveillance and

597
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: we took samples of things and we watched them and

598
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: we couldn't find anything. There was no evidence the clan

599
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 1: was involved. You know what, Joseph, I guess you said,

600
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: thanks for telling me. Now anyway, right showed nothing that

601
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: became a big, big story, you know that, Oh the clan.

602
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: There was a clan investigation and it was secret. It

603
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 1: ended up it was begun and concluded with no evidence

604
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: of plan involvement before or Wayne Williams ever became a

605
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: suspector was stopped on them on or near the bridge. Okay,

606
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: I've got a question, Joseph, that I want to clear up.

607
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: Are there victims that were never officially proven connected to

608
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: Williams and do you support reanalyzing the evidence in those cases. Sure,

609
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: and that's what that's what a group has been doing.

610
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 1: You know, folks from the DA's office and the police

611
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: department are looking at it, and we may find out

612
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: Williams kill them too, or we may find out he didn't.

613
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: I'm all for the retesting of that evidence to find

614
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: out if we can now who murdered those children and

615
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: young men. When you look back on it, Joseph J. Drouet,

616
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: what's your takeaway? I mean, obviously it's haunted you to

617
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: the point you wrote a book, The Pursuit of the

618
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: Atlanta Child Kill Our Facts, Fibers and Forensics, right, you know,

619
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: it is something that has continued to continue to be

620
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: people who are doubters and so forth. Over the years.

621
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: I've seen so many productions that have been done that

622
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: for the purpose of entertainment. They don't talk about the evidence.

623
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: They talk about, you know, the mystery of the case,

624
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: what mystery he did it? Well, if you don't know

625
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: about the evidence, you don't know that. And I've had

626
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: so many people and I think even in the Daily

627
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: Mail article that was done two years ago, they interviewed

628
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: various people, a number of people who said I don't

629
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 1: think he did it, said I'm not aware of what

630
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: the evidence was. I've never seen all the evidence. And

631
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: I found this with many of the mothers, even that

632
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 1: they don't know what the evidence was. If they did,

633
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: they would probably think differently. What is it, lou Archangel

634
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: about Wayne Williams that everyone wants to think he's innocent.

635
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: He's not. Oh, Wayne Williams was as child molesting pedophile,

636
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,479
Speaker 1: He abused his parents. I mean, he's a despicable human being.

637
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: And yet many people have rallied to his side because

638
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: they don't know the facts, but they're so clearly laid

639
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,919
Speaker 1: out in Joe's book that after you've read basically how

640
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: a prosecutor works, how the criminal justice system works, you

641
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: will understand the complexities of the case. It'll all come together.

642
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams is guilty. I think of killing twenty eight people.

643
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: That is exactly what I think, Lou, that is exactly

644
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: what I think. Joseph drew way, this has become a

645
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: mission of yours. Why well, after the trial, of course,

646
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: I handled the appeal and other folks involved in the

647
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 1: prosecution went elsewhere. So I ended up being the person

648
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: who has been defending the case, those in the Georgias

649
00:44:55,200 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: frame cort and the assisting in regard cathederal Corey's eight

650
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 1: habeas corpus. And every time something happens about the case,

651
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: I get calls about it. So I've been, uh, you know,

652
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: talking about this case and acting as sort of the

653
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: spokesman for what happened for forty years. Joe, this is arned.

654
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: One question, one question that I've wondered about over the

655
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: years is despite the imposing forensic evidence, do you believe

656
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: that there might have been a different outcome had Wayne

657
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: Williams not taken the stand. No, I don't think. I

658
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: don't think him taking the stand did anything, because the

659
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: evidence was all there when he took the stand. What

660
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 1: it did was dispelled the fact that he could deny

661
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 1: this with a straight pace, because he ended up being

662
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: unable to stick to the story that he had in

663
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: regard to, for example, what he was doing on the bridge,

664
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: and that's he sort of melted down on the witness stand. Oh,

665
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: you got to tell me about that, Joseph who put

666
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: their client on the stand. Well, you know, the defendant,

667
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: I think, wanted to testify. Yeah, what can you do

668
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: with that? When the defendant insists he's smarter than everybody

669
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 1: else and insists he wants to take the stand exactly,

670
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: you can't stop him under the law. You've got to

671
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: let him testify. What did he do, understand, Joseph, Well,

672
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: he did real real well for the first part when

673
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: he was being examined by al Bider, he did real

674
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: real well. Oh, dear Lord in Heaven. But he then

675
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: we brought him back the next day because we weren't finished.

676
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: And then what the FBI founders had suggested was, if

677
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: you keep confronting him with his eyes, he will probably

678
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: at some point blow up, and he did. And what

679
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: made him blow up was he could not answer the

680
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: question if he crossed the bridge going south towards his house,

681
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,439
Speaker 1: and he said, a trial, I crossed the base because

682
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 1: I wanted to go home. Well, then he turns around

683
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: at the end of the bridge and goes north up

684
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: to Interstate two eighty five. Well then he tries to

685
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: explain that by saying, oh, it's quicker to go home

686
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: by two eighty five. And of course the question then is, well,

687
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: then why did you go down across the bridge? And

688
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 1: that one thing made him blow up, Yes, because he couldn't.

689
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: He had come up with different versions and painted himself

690
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: into a corner. Do you have any doubt, Joseph, that

691
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: why and Williams is guilty? No, I don't. I don't

692
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: based on the evidence. I think you know very clearly

693
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: he killed you know, eighteen or so of them, probably

694
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: twenty four others. You know, we just didn't have evidence.

695
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,919
Speaker 1: Some of the earlier cases there was nothing but skeletal remains,

696
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: and evidence had been dispersed over a period of months

697
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: and even up to a year. He may have killed

698
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: some of those people you may have go there in

699
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: Glass who is still missing? Well, your book The Pursuit

700
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: of the Atlanta Child Killer Facts Fibers in Forensics on

701
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 1: Amazon Now is incredible. Gentlemen, Thank you Nancy Grace Crime

702
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: Stories signing off good bye friend,