1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: Next week, we're going to start our new season, The 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:07,159 Speaker 1: Real Free Speech Threat, covering the growing criminalization of environmental 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: protest around the world. It's our first big cross border series, 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: and it will include dozens of stories both in the 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: podcast and online. One thing we'll be looking at in 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: that series is the media's role in enabling this trend. 7 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: Before you can criminalize protest, you have to vilify the protesters, 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: and to do that effectively, you need the media's help. 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: Ivlando Cooper at Media Matters reviewed media coverage of climate 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: protest in the US from May thirtieth, twenty twenty two 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: to July thirty first, twenty twenty three for a new study. 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: He documented a trend that we've been seeing too. Not 13 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: only has the US media perpetuated the idea that climate 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: protesters are uniquely disruptive and radical, but their general failure 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: to cover anything about climate protest other than the disruption 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: that they call further perpetuates this thinking. Ivlando's research found 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: that while multiple national outlets have run stories about climate 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: protesters being annoying and destructive, not a single broadcaster has 19 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: run even one story on the fact that nearly half 20 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: of the states in the US have now passed laws 21 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: criminalizing protest. That fact is both shocking and worrisome. We're 22 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: going to get into all of that and more with 23 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: Avlando after this quick break. I am Westervelt and this 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: is drilled. So I wanted to start by just asking 25 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: you what prompted you to start looking at how media 26 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: was covering climate activism. 27 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I had been seeing these infrastructure laws, the 28 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: Steady March, and state of the state of the criminalization 29 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: of protest climate protests specifically, and so I wanted to 30 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: see how the media was covering it. The problem was, 31 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: we knew that the media wasn't covering specifically the criminalization 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: of climate protests, and so seeing this kind of global 33 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: surge and climate activism specifically around kind of provocative climate 34 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: actions and civil disobedience, we thought that was a way 35 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 2: that we could kind of get at understanding how media 36 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: was covering climate protests generally and to see if they 37 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: were adding some context to these protests. 38 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: So, yeah, I know that just purely anecdotally. Whenever I 39 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: pitch a story that's related to protest, it's kind of 40 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: a hard sell, you know, It's like, what's really happening? 41 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: Is it new? Nobody wants to cover a particular action, 42 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: because then it feels like you're just doing pr for 43 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: the environmental organizations. What do you outlets when they do 44 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: cover protests at all, What are the sorts of stories 45 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: that you're seeing. 46 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: So the vast majority of the stories were kind of 47 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: dry recitals of what happened, you know, first, there still 48 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: wasn't even that much coverage of I guess these more 49 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 2: controversial climate actions, right, So we had to put that 50 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 2: in context that I think a lot of these actions 51 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: are designed for kind of social media of ability. But 52 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: it's important for me to understand that, you know, social 53 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 2: media is its own kind of activism. But I think 54 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: there are also a lot of persuadables, older people, older 55 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: voters who were trying to get on board with understanding 56 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: the need for urgent climate action, who still get most 57 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: of their news from mainstream sources. So that's why we 58 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: wanted to kind of focus on the kind of traditional 59 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: corporate news media environment. And but all you would see 60 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: really is just a dry recital of, you know, a 61 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: specific action. You didn't get any context about the urgency 62 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: behind the action, why the people were protesting, And to me, 63 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: it called to mind there have been a lot of 64 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: really great justice movements that have employed controversial tactics, and 65 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: their good faith disagreements within those movements themselves about which 66 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: tactics to deploy. But I think a lot of those 67 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: would have been much less successful if people didn't really 68 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 2: understand why they were protesting in the first place. And 69 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: so the media presenting these climate activists is disruptors, as nuisances, 70 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 2: as knucklehead kids who don't really know what they're doing 71 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 2: or why they're doing it. Paved the way for me 72 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: which I think is a more dangerous trend, which is 73 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: where you have an organization like Fox News, which covered 74 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 2: the protests with way more than other mainstream news outlets, 75 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 2: and their coverage was full of derision, climate denial, and 76 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: mocking and even calls for violence against the protesters. So 77 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: I think you have a mainstream news environment that when 78 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: they cover these protests, they cover them is just the 79 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: most basic kind of headline news rundowns these activists did 80 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: this at this gallery, or they protested this sports event. 81 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: There's no climate context, there's no context about the escalating 82 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 2: criminalization of their protests, there's no context about the violence 83 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: being directed at them. And then you have a network 84 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 2: swooping in and filling that gap with These are bad 85 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: people who are protesting a fake thing, and they deserve 86 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:35,799 Speaker 2: whatever they have coming to them. 87 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: That's so interesting just how much the vacuum creates the 88 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 3: ability to kind of do the Fox News style coverage 89 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: and have it land too. But yeah, it's been very 90 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: interesting to me to see how much the coverage focuses on, 91 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 3: you know, how disruptive these kids are, and like, like 92 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 3: even so, the example that is top of mind me 93 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 3: right now is the recent New York Times piece where they. 94 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: Talked about the Arn't protests and how they're costing museums money, right, 95 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: and I like completely coincidentally, I happened to be interviewing 96 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: Joanna Altman Smith the same day that that story came out, Right, 97 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: so like, this is she's one of the people who 98 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: protested at the National Gallery. They put water soluble kid's 99 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: fingerpaint on the display case of a dagd statue in 100 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: the National Gallery, so like, not an incredible amount of damage, 101 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: very easy to clean up. You know, they read a 102 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: manifesto and talked actually a lot about why they were 103 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: doing this and whatnot. And she she told me she's 104 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: like I spent hours, hours and hours talking to the 105 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,799 Speaker 1: reporter who wrote that piece about all of the reasons why, 106 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: like it was worth the risk for us. And and 107 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: by the way, this is someone who's facing a charge 108 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: as a person who is conspiring against the United States. Yes, 109 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: it's which is insane. She's facing ten years in jail 110 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: and half a million dollars in fines for this action. 111 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: She has had her passport taken, and none of that 112 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: was in the story, Like it's there was nothing about 113 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: the reason for the protest. There's nothing about the overwhelming 114 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: weight of the charges compared to what the action itself 115 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: actually cost. So anyway, it's just it's really interesting because 116 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: I feel like that kind of framing really helps the 117 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: criminalization of protests because it makes all of these protesters 118 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: seem like annoying mosquitos, right, It's very dehumanizing. Was there 119 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: anyone that you saw doing a good job of covering this, 120 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: and like, did it tend to break down across sort 121 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: of expected lines in terms of mainstream media versus smaller 122 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: or more independent outlets. 123 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, okay, so on on the broadcast side. Note, 124 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: I mean they didn't they didn't cour it enough for 125 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 2: it to even be meaningful on cable not really either. 126 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: I mean. 127 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 2: It was with sparse coverage, and what it was was 128 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 2: kind of, like you said, just a kind of dry recitation, 129 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 2: no context. The newspapers provided a more nuanced picture. Washington 130 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: Post published the most stories. And this is just looking 131 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: at print, because I know there were some on like 132 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: online specific articles that were really harsh against the client protesters, 133 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: and there were someone that were that were really kind 134 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: of wonderfully defensive of their actions. And you saw that 135 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: kind of coexisting on the print side too, which to 136 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: me is problematic because you're sending mixed messages to your 137 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 2: to your readers. You know, I know you're trying to 138 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: present a kind of broad outlook on this, but like 139 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 2: you said, any any article that doesn't include the context 140 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: about the scale of the protests versus the scale of 141 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: the response, to me is not doing its job. So 142 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: but you did have a more nuanced picture among the 143 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: print outlets. The New York Times published one or two 144 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: decent pieces, so I think the overall, I can't say though, 145 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: that there were very many standouts because among print, any 146 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: standouts were kind of negated by harsh, chastising or decontextualized 147 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 2: articles that didn't present the whole picture. And I think 148 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 2: part of what what angers me about this is that 149 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: a lot of these papers, and especially on CAB when 150 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: you see ANEMBC, present themselves as democracy defenders, right, But 151 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 2: when it comes down to it, the people who are 152 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: actually practicing democracy in the best tradition civil disobedience on 153 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: behalf of a righteous cause, there these draconying responses to them, 154 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: whether it's legally or through the police. You had a 155 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 2: forest defender murdered in Atlanta for protesting police facility, and 156 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: this doesn't get covered, it doesn't get contextualized. And so 157 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: instead of being democracy defenders, while they're good on you know, 158 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: the kind of right wing Trump stuff, they are completely 159 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: falling down to me on the people who pose the 160 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 2: biggest threat to with the system, which are climate activists, 161 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 2: leftist protesters who are being demonized and humanized as you mentioned, 162 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: and being criminalized, and this gets no attention in this 163 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: corporate media sphere. 164 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, did you look at all at whether there was 165 00:10:54,760 --> 00:11:00,599 Speaker 1: any difference in how publications covered different types of activism, 166 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: whether there's any difference in how they cover a climate 167 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: protest versus something that's more like general interest democracy kind 168 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: of thing. I feel like I see a lot more 169 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: annoyance with the climate protesters that I've seen with other 170 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: types of protesters, and it's really interesting to me. I'm like, 171 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: where is this coming from. 172 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: So we don't have a data point for this, but 173 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: I can definitely say that there is no small measure 174 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 2: of respectability politics at play with regards to these specific protests, 175 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 2: right because you know, they they cover Earth Day, right, 176 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: you know, it's not well, it's not particularly great coverage, 177 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 2: but Earth Day receives generally positive coverage, at least amongst 178 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: the mainstream news. The youth climate protests for a few 179 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 2: years ago, right, we're generally well received. You know, they're 180 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 2: deemed to be you know, proper way of protesting, you know, 181 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: marching in the streets, holding signs. When it comes to 182 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 2: any anything slightly more subversive or direct, you do see 183 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 2: a lot of this handing, specifically with regardless of climate. 184 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 2: You know, you can argue that the BLM protests were disruptive, 185 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: they were allowed, they were aggressive, and you know, they 186 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: got their point across, but the media didn't cover them 187 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: like they cover climate activists, right because rightfully so, criminal 188 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: justice demand for criminal justice and racial justice are deemed 189 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: to be worthy causes and their protests given more leeway 190 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: and how they agitate for those causes. But something about 191 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: climate or if it's not done, and it's a very 192 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: specific way, it's very kind of old school style protests. 193 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 2: Anything slightly provocative is really integrated, and it's viewed as illegitimate. 194 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, we did this episode Mary and I 195 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 3: when we were doing hot Take. We did this episode 196 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 3: maybe like two or three years ago talking to Reverwood 197 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 3: about how like, in the early days of the environmental movement, 198 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 3: a lot of the environmental organizations were very specifically not 199 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: wanting to engage. 200 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: In either class struggle or racial equity, and part of 201 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: why they had created this whole separate environmental thing was 202 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: to be like, we're not engaging with that, you know. 203 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: And now I feel like climate has become a broader 204 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: movement and it has become more of a challenge to 205 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: certain class and racial problems as well. And I wonder if, like, 206 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's just as simple as like, hey, 207 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: it's a threat to capital. 208 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: I mean, let's get to the core of it, right, 209 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: I mean, the core of the of the problem is 210 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 2: that the media, you know, despite you know, certain instances 211 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 2: we're talking about broadcasts and cave of news right now, 212 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: they're they're kind of they don't really do a great 213 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: job on climate already. Right climate is not a top priority. 214 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 2: It's not covered like it needs to be. It's not 215 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: providing the context and substances it needs to be right 216 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: outside of a few moments in a few instances. So 217 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: already climate isn't taken seriously enough by these corporate news outlets. 218 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 2: Then on top of it, you add climate driven protests, 219 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 2: and then you add a climate during protest that are 220 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: deemed disrespectful or illegitimate because of the form of protest. 221 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: You know, you have this ready made recipe to either 222 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: ignore or distort what the protests are. And then you 223 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: add on the threat that they posed to vested interests 224 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: like the FALSS fuel industry, because all of the demands 225 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 2: are you know, immediately transition away from a false fuel 226 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: economy in order to thwart climate change. You got to 227 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: add that messaging in as well. I mean, it's just 228 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: it's a perfect recipe for poor coverage. 229 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, have you gotten any sense in looking at all 230 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 3: of the coverage that may be part of it too. 231 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: Is the way that controversy sells. Having a bad guy 232 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: always kind of you know, brings people into a story. 233 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: There's just that kind of framing happening too, to make 234 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: the story more interesting. 235 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: I mean, definitely on a I mean, that's that's the 236 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: thing right on the Fox side, definitely. You know, however 237 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: you feel about these protests, they are designing to get 238 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: media attention, and they do get a lot of social 239 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 2: media attention. I thought they would be getting a lot 240 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 2: more attention on broadcasting cable news, but they didn't, which 241 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: is why Fox saw a ready made villain for their 242 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: audience and they seized it. You know, they seized that 243 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: narrative and they hammered it home time and again what 244 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 2: you got from the from mainstream corporate news was basically indifference. Yeah, 245 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: which to me, you know, yeah, so it's weird. You 246 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 2: have protests designed to write media attention and it got 247 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: mostly indifference from the from the main from the mainstream 248 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: media sources. But Fox definitely saw that narrative that you point, 249 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: know of already made villain. I think you know you 250 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: were talking about the weird tenor of the coverage mounted protests. Yeah, 251 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: another weird thing for me, which I would have at 252 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: least captured in some of the methodology, right, is, Yeah, 253 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: the media is complete lack of concern for the surveillance 254 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: capitalism state that is literally being built around us in 255 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: the shadows, and you don't hear about it at all, 256 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: and to me, more so to even protests, it's a 257 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: direct threat to how journalists can do their job. 258 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: Totally. 259 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 3: Yes, it's really interesting, and I wanted to ask you 260 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 3: too about the I know I've seen several stories in 261 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 3: this vein and I'm curious if you saw this emerging 262 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 3: as sort of a thread, But I do see coverage 263 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 3: of like who's. 264 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: Funding these activists, and not not just in the Fox 265 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: News you know, Sorrows Checks kind of way, but like 266 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: you know, the Near again, the New York Times, sorry 267 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: New York Times, but they read they ran a story 268 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe two years ago where the focal 269 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: point was that like a lot of the organizations that 270 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: are funding activism, their money comes. 271 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 3: From oil airs basically. But it was very much in 272 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 3: this like Soros checks kind of framing, and again there 273 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 3: wasn't much in there about why the individual people showing 274 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 3: up to these actions felt compelled to be doing this work. 275 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: And the idea that someone would be engaging in activism 276 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 3: as their job is like really vilified in the media 277 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: like that automatically means you're not credible, you're biased or whatever, 278 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 3: like you're a paid actor, that kind of thing. And 279 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know, I'm like, people have to 280 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 3: eat and pay rent. I don't think it's terrible for 281 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 3: someone to devote their life to something that they actually 282 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 3: feel strongly about. You know, that's usually applauded in many 283 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: areas of society. So yeah, I'm just I'm curious what 284 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 3: you've seen on the coverage of the money side of things. 285 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember reading that article, and they seem more 286 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: upset that she was a class trader than you know, 287 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 2: than anything, right. I mean, you know, I think transparency 288 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 2: and funding of journalists can dig into that stuff and 289 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: highlight it. I think an informous public discourse. But you know, 290 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 2: it's very one sided because ALEC is pushing a lot 291 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: of these infrastructure laws, and the false few industry is 292 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: behind them. It's funding them to push these criminalization of protests, 293 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: domestic terrorism, all this kind of draconian stuff. But you 294 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: never hear about this industry who's being greenwashed in the 295 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: mainstream media on the backhand pushing laws that would that 296 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 2: literally undermine democratically protected protest. So yeah, yeah, if you 297 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 2: want to cover the money trail, cover it for both sides, 298 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 2: and I think you'll find much deeper pockets on a 299 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: fossil fuel and then you will on a few rich 300 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 2: progressives funding some climate activist groups. 301 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I can't think of a single mainstream outlet that 302 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: I've seen even cover the critical Infrastructure laws, which like 303 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: seems like a pretty big deal. Post has covered it, 304 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: The Intercept, Unicorn Riot, you know, these kinds of outlets. 305 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: The Guardian has covered it. That seems like it would 306 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: make for really good TV. That story. 307 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: You know, I always think, like the generalists print and 308 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 2: online during has worked so hard. These stories are already prepackaged, right, 309 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 2: so building a news segment around it, to me doesn't 310 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: seem like that big of a stretch because most of 311 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 2: the work's been done, but you still don't see it. 312 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: It's been very well documented that the fossil fuel industry 313 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: funded that work. American fuel and petrol chemicals helped to 314 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: write the legislation. I mean, it's literally it's all there 315 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: in some. 316 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: Ways, you know, like we're doing this series and some 317 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,479 Speaker 3: of the stories I'm kind of like, isn't that old news? 318 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: But I'm like, well, it hasn't actually really broken through 319 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: somehow to people that this is happening. And I also 320 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: feel like, actually it has bipartisan appeal when I talk 321 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: to people who are otherwise fairly right wing about and 322 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: I don't even tell them that it's related to climate 323 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: protest in particular. I just criminalization of protest. They're like, 324 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: that's not right, you know what es should be happening, 325 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: you know, So I don't. I don't know. It's very strange. 326 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 2: I mean, there are people in my life who, you know, 327 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 2: who I love, but who get their news primarily from 328 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 2: kind of the main corporate They don't get much of 329 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: their news from online news sources, independent news sources, and 330 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: yeah they don't you know, every time I publish something 331 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 2: or share something with them, they have no idea that 332 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 2: this stuff is going on. Yeah, I mean, no idea. 333 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 2: And to me that's a complete dereliction of duty. 334 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: Yes, especially when you're talking about laws that criminalize sort 335 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: of a key part of democracy in this way. I 336 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: just it's really shocking that it's not everywhere. In general, 337 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: I feel like the we just are so far away 338 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,719 Speaker 1: from the media kind of taking any responsibility for this stuff. 339 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it wouldn't matter as much if 340 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: so many voting age people still didn't primarily get their 341 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: news from one of these mainstream news sources. And I 342 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 2: think these are these are people that we need to 343 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: reach in order to actually drive climate action, to put 344 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: profession on politicians and policy makers, and you know, I 345 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: think that's why it's so important. If they're not hearing 346 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 2: about any of this stuff, Yeah, it's it's just only 347 00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 2: going to get worse. 348 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Is there anything that you've found in the study 349 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: that we didn't talk about already that you want to 350 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: make sure people know about. 351 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 2: I think the media they think that if they mentioned 352 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: climate change or connected to an extreme whether you're in 353 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: you know, that is an improvement. But this is what 354 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: should have been happening ten twenty years ago. What they 355 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: don't understand is that they have to rapidly improve their 356 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: coverage to catch up to where we are now. We're 357 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: way past just mentioning climate change. I mean, like you 358 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: mentioned climate I mean, thank you for doing it again. 359 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 2: Keep doing it, Yes, but you have to like rapidly 360 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 2: scale up the quality of your courage and I just don't. 361 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: I think they're still caught up in well, we were 362 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: mentioned in climate, we're saying extreme weather. But we're way 363 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: past that and they need to really and the more people, 364 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: more groups can agitate for that kind of rapid improvement, yes, 365 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 2: shame shame them, I think the better