1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Holly here, listen. I have to apologize upfront 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: for an error in today's show that happens multiple times, 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: and it is all my fault. We in the first 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: segment of this show talk about a tortoise who lives 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: on Saint Helena Island. I very authoritatively said it's Saint 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: Helena throughout the show, and Tracy followed suit because it 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: was the one I researched. So instead of making our 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: poor editor, Casey edit in a whole new version of it, 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: since we did not catch this until the show was 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: edited together, I'm just gonna make this humble apology and 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: hope that you will forgive me. Every time you hear it, 12 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: you can chuckle to yourself and note that I'm the 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: reason it's wrong. Thanks. Welcome to Stuff you missed in 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: History Class, A production of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Holly from and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Tracy, 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: it's finally the lighter episode I've been meaning to do. 17 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: I'm so happy for you. This one was actually really fun. 18 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: There's some consternation that happens in the middle act that 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: I find humorous because it's just in my opinion silly. 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: I don't want to denigrate anyone who doesn't find it silly, 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: but I have reasons we can discuss them in the 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. We're going to talk about very old 23 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: animals today. Yeah, because a lot of these animals, and 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 1: we say very old, we mean very old, very very old, 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: all of them more than a hundred so much more. 26 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: And I thought they would be interesting to talk about 27 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: because they've been, you know, marking time, more or less 28 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: unaware of all of the ups and downs and intrigues 29 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: that humanity has been going through. And there's the stories 30 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: that come out of this I found as I was researching, 31 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: are really about the way we as humans perceive these 32 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: animals and their importance or their iconic status. I just 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: want to note that we have this sort of I 34 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: don't know if I would call it bad luck. We 35 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: have an uncanny repetition of events where we record a 36 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: thing about something, and then within a week the circumstances 37 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: of that thing change. Right, two of the animals we're 38 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: talking about are still alive. So please, please, Universe, do 39 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: not do anything to these animals because we have recorded 40 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: this episode. I'm not that superstitious, but we really do 41 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: have an uncanny number of those instances. One of them 42 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: is already deceased, and it's death made people real mad. 43 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: So that's what we're talking about today, very old animals 44 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: and the way we think about them. So we're going 45 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: to start with Jonathan the tortoise, who is one of 46 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: the most famous animals on this list because he is, 47 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: as of when we're recording this, still alive. He offers 48 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: a link back through time, so a lot of events 49 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: we have talked about on the show over the years. 50 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: He's the oldest living land animal that we know of, 51 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: and as of January twenty twenty two, also considered the 52 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: oldest tortoise in history, again that we know of. Yeah, 53 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: it's not like they're submitting their birth certificates or records 54 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: to anyone, so there could be an older one out 55 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: there that just hasn't been like, Hello, I too saw 56 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: the war. Jonathan's hatch date is reported as somewhere around 57 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty two, although veterinarian Joe Hollins, who is his caretaker, 58 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: has told news outlets that he thinks Jonathan could be 59 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: even older, and the head of tourism for the island 60 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: of Saint Helena just where he lives. That man is 61 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: Matt Joshua, and he told CNN in twenty twenty two 62 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: quote Jonathan could actually be two hundred because the information 63 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: regarding his arrival on the island is not exact, and 64 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: because there's no real record of his birth, So that 65 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: hatch date of eighteen thirty two is a calculated guess 66 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: based on when Jonathan first appears in the historical record, 67 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: at which point he was already an adult, which would 68 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: mean that he was at least fifty years old already. 69 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: That appearance in the historical record is the moment that Jonathan, 70 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: who had been captured in the Seychelles Island, which is 71 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: where his species, the Seychelles giant tortoise is native to 72 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 1: that moment he was captured and brought to the home 73 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: of Sir William Gray Wilson as a gift. That happened 74 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty two, So that eighteen thirty two date 75 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: is just the result of subtracting fifty years from the 76 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: date that the tortoise showed up as a gift. The 77 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: record that denotes Jonathan's arrival is not any kind of 78 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: official paperwork. It's just a letter that mentions him. There's 79 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: also a photograph that shows Jonathan alongside several humans that 80 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: was taken sometime between eighteen eighty two and eighteen eighty six, 81 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: and it's clear in that photograph that the tortoise is 82 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: full grown. So there's some additional supporting evidence here, not 83 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: just the letter. Yeah, we didn't say so, but William 84 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: Gray Wilson was the governor of Saint Helena at the time, 85 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: and there's been some confusion and debate over the years 86 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: over Jonathan's exact age. Throughout the mid twentieth century, there 87 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: were a number of press mentions of a historic tortoise 88 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: on Saint Helena that made an interesting boast. So one 89 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: of these I found in the Jersey Journal, which was 90 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: tagged as a dispatch from Saint Helena Island, and it 91 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: read quote, A giant land tortoise in the gardens of 92 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: Government House here is said to be the only creature 93 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: alive that set eyes on Napoleon the Great General, paced 94 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: the path of the gardens when in exile. Napoleon Bonaparte 95 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,119 Speaker 1: was exiled on Saint Helena. It is the second place 96 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: he was exiled, and it was where he died in 97 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: eighteen twenty one, so that is more than a decade 98 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: before Jonathan is believed to have even been born, and 99 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: it's more than sixty years before Jonathan arrived on Saint Helena. 100 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: So it appears this is a case of a giant 101 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: tortoise who was there. Jonathan is not the only one 102 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,239 Speaker 1: that's been a gift over the years. For a while 103 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: it was kind of trendy to give giant tortoises his gifts. 104 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: But it appears that there was one that was there 105 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: when Napoleon was that is getting conflated or was at 106 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: the time with Jonathan's story. A lot of newspapers reported 107 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: this error as fact, although some of them seemed kind 108 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: of tongue in cheek about it, like the Daily Times 109 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: of Davenport, Iowa, which reported on the tortoise in a 110 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: small blurb under the headline unique distinction in nineteen forty 111 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: seven reads quote, according to a newspaper item, there is 112 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: a tortoise at Saint Helena who probably saw Napoleon, and 113 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: I might surmise is the only one who hasn't written 114 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: a book about it. Saint Helena is part of the 115 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: larger British Overseas territory known as Saint Helena Ascension and 116 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: Tristan d'acuna. It's a tropical island in the South Atlantic 117 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: that sits twenty five hundred miles east of Rio di 118 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: Janio and twelve hundred miles west of Angola. It's remote 119 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: and it's recorded as having been uninhabited when it was 120 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: discovered on the feast day of Saint Helena May twenty first, 121 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: in fifteen oh two by Spanish explorer Juau de Nova. 122 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: That exact date is also contested, because it's likely that 123 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: it was actually discovered several weeks earlier. There's some supporting 124 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: documentation that hints at an earlier May date and that 125 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: the reported date was selected to align with the name 126 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: that they chose. But because of its isolated position in 127 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: the Southern Atlantic, it stayed the exclusive knowledge of Portugal, 128 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: for whom De Nova had been working when he found it, 129 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: for a while. It took more than eighty years for 130 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: English navigator Thomas Cavendish to land there after that once 131 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: England knew about Saint Helena, all of Europe kind of did, 132 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: and it became essentially a port island. Its position made 133 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: it a really good stopping point for ships on long voyages. 134 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: The occupation of the island was claimed alternately by British 135 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: and Dutch interests, but by the end of the seventeenth 136 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: century it was property of the British East India Company. 137 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: For roughly one hundred and fifty years. After that, its 138 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: population was split almost evenly between administrators of the British 139 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: East India Company and their families and their enslaved workforce. 140 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: Slavery was phased out on the island during the eighteen 141 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: twenties and thirties and the two hundred years since then. 142 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: The island has continued to be a British territory, but 143 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: it has gained some degree of self governance relateationship that 144 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: has continued to evolve into the twenty first century. The 145 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: island has retained a small community. Only about forty four 146 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: hundred people live there, but despite the fact that it 147 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: is pretty hard to get there, even with a relatively 148 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,119 Speaker 1: new airport that opened in twenty sixteen, it's a tourism destination. 149 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: It's beautiful and it has Jonathan. You can visit him. 150 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: He's on my list. Jonathan is a Chelonian, meaning that 151 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: he is in the order that includes tortoises, turtles, and terrapins. 152 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: He is a Seychell's giant tortoise. As we said earlier, 153 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: that's an animal that was actually used as a food 154 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: source for a lot of years. Their own physiology was 155 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: what made them so sought after for that reason. Not 156 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: only have people found the meat from giant tortoises tasty, 157 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: but their shells have made them easy to stack and store, 158 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: particularly on sea voyages. And because they were so commonly 159 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: eaten for so long, Jonathan is one of very few left. 160 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: But he may be a specific subspecies of Seychelle's tortoise. 161 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: There are several such subspecies, some of which were thought 162 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: to be extinct and now were like maybe not, And 163 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: as of a year ago, there had not been a 164 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: conclusive determination regarding Jonathan and where he fits into the 165 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: Chelonian order. Jonathan today lives what sounds like a pretty 166 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: great life. He eats cabbage, carrots, apples, and bananas, as 167 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: well as other plants and produce. Apparently, though he does 168 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: not like kale. His sense of smell is gone and 169 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: he's blind. He can still hear, though, and he's pretty sociable. 170 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: He's very well cared for and seems to be still 171 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: full of life. His weight is uncertain. There's not really 172 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: an easy way to weigh him on the island. According 173 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: to his keeper, Jonathan is still very interested in mating, 174 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: and he has frequent rendezvous with two of the other 175 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: tortoises on the island. Those are Emma and Fred. Fred 176 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: incidentally was originally called Frederica and believed to be female 177 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: when the two were first introduced in the nineteen nineties. 178 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: It wasn't until twenty seventeen, when Fred had a veterinary procedure, 179 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: that they realized that he was male. Jonathan gets regular 180 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: baths from Joe Hollins and his hand fed, although Hollins 181 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: has to wear welding gloves to do this because Jonathan's 182 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: beak is very sharp. Could not be comfortable. He could 183 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: do a lot of damage if he clamped down on 184 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: someone's finger. Yeah, and uh again, he's blind, so there's 185 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: not necessarily he sayesn't have vision to help him go 186 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: after food, so the odds of a clamp on a 187 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: finger are high. I think Hollins has mentioned he's lost 188 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: a couple fingernails over the years. Jonathan is part of 189 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: a diverse group of animals that are kept on the island. 190 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: Of Saint Helena, and he's been a tourist attraction for 191 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: a long time. In recent years, though, more rules have 192 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: been instated to optimize Jonathan's health and ensure that he 193 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: is not unduly stressed by all of his visitors and fans. 194 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: For example, it was once allowed quite a number of 195 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: years back for kids to sit on his back for photos. 196 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: They don't allow that anymore, and now there is apparently 197 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: pretty careful management of his interactions when tour groups come through, 198 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: because they can get a little bit raucous. In the 199 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: decades that Jonathan has wandered within the grounds of the 200 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: Saint Helena Governor's House, he has not always thrived. In 201 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: the late nineteen sixties, he was reportedly having some behavioral issues. 202 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: An article that circulated in various papers read quote, A 203 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: protester has been disrupting the easy going routine of civilized 204 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: colonial life on the island of Saint Helena, the British 205 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: possession in the South Atlantic. Jonathan is the name, and 206 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: Jonathan likes to upend benches beside the British Governor's tennis 207 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: courts and halt croquet games by sitting on the ball. Ordinarily, 208 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: the Governor of the island not be expected to tolerate 209 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: such boorish behavior. But Jonathan is special. I just the 210 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: language of civilized life. I don't I don't love that. 211 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: I initially included an insert that just said grown in 212 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: this copy. So this article continues by telling Jonathan's story 213 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: and that he's one hundred and forty and that quote. 214 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: The governor decided the turtle was simply trying to let 215 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: people know that he had had enough of the lonely life. 216 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: Jonathan's mate met with an untimely death one hundred years 217 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: ago when she sauntered off a cliff. To remedy this problem, 218 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: the governor ordered additional tortoises to keep Jonathan company. We're 219 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: gonna pause for a quick sponsor break, and then we'll 220 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: talk about some modern efforts to improve Jonathan's health and 221 00:13:49,679 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: well being. When Hollins was initially hired to be Jonathan's 222 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: veterinarian and caretaker, the elderly tortoise had a number of 223 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: health issues, which were all traced back to nutrition deficiencies. 224 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: With a change in diet to include more fresh fruits 225 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: and vegetables, he bounced back and regained his health. You 226 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: can read stories about how his beak was kind of crumbly, 227 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: the nature of it was not very strong, and that 228 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: it has really regrown and come back quite well. He 229 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: does sometimes give visitors a scare that he has passed 230 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: because apparently Jonathan likes to sunbathe sprawling with his limbs 231 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: and neck outstretched. Hollins also conducted a thorough review of 232 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: the environment and protocols related to the care of the 233 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: island's tortoises to make changes that would maximize the quality 234 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: of life for Jonathan and his tortoise friends. Hollins told 235 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: The Washington Post in twenty twenty two quote, Jonathan is 236 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: symbolic of persistence, endurance, and survival and has achieved iconic 237 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: status on the island. Got a lot of news coverage 238 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two because Saint Helena had a huge 239 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: one hundred and ninetieth birthday for him. They asked fans 240 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: of Jonathan to send in video greetings wishing him happy 241 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: birthday and any photos that tourists may have taken with him. 242 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: This was all to be included in a celebration package 243 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: for the event. He also got a cake made of 244 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: salad as part of this three day long party. As 245 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: part of the promotion for Jonathan's Big Day, the island's 246 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: tourism pamphlet about the festivities noted just how much the 247 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: world has changed while Jonathan has been living out his 248 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,239 Speaker 1: days there. Quote, he has watched more than thirty governors 249 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: come and go from plantation house, watch the island introduce radios, telephones, TVs, internet, cars, 250 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: and an airport. He has lived through two World wars. 251 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: NPR's coverage of the Big birthdaytion dig also contextualized Jonathan's 252 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: life on the historical timeline with some additional data points. 253 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: They noted, quote, He's lived through two World Wars, eight 254 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: British monarchs, and forty US presidents. His lifetime has seen 255 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: the first phone call eighteen seventy six, the first skyscraper 256 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty five, the first power driven flight nineteen oh three, 257 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: the first people to walk on the moon nineteen sixty nine. 258 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: He was alive when the first photograph of a person 259 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: was taken eighteen thirty eight. Now he poses for selfies 260 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: with adoring tourists. He was born before the creation of 261 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: the postage stamp eighteen forty and now appears on them. 262 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: He's had the distinction of having met Queen Elizabeth the 263 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: second back when she was Princess Elizabeth. Yeah, that was 264 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties. So that is Jonathan. Happy belated birthday, Jonathan. 265 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: We hope you have many more. The second oldest Chillonian 266 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: on record, just incidentally, was a Madagascar radiated tortoise named 267 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: tul Malila, who died at the ripled age of one 268 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: hundred eighty eight in nineteen sixty five. Like Jonathan, he 269 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: had been a gift, this time from Captain James Cook 270 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: to the Royal family of Tonga in the late seventeen hundreds. 271 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: Moving on, in two thousand and six, a team of 272 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: researchers from Bangor University of Wales collected a number of 273 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: Arctica islandica, also known as ocean cohogs more casually just 274 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: called clams, that was off the northern coast of Iceland. 275 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: These cohogs come from a seabed that was two hundred 276 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: and sixty two feet or eighty meters deep. The research 277 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: project that the clams were part of was mounted to 278 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: study the history of the oceans in relation to climate 279 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: and the science of aging, because these clams are known 280 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: to live for a really long time. As part of 281 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: the collection process, the clams were frozen and opened, which 282 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: kills them, and then the shells were removed for study. 283 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: So here is a very quick and non thorough rundown 284 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: of clam anatomy and why the shell is important. Clams 285 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: are bivalve molluscs. Their shells protect the soft muscles and 286 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: the organs inside, and those insides are actually pretty simple, 287 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: but they're also very efficient. There's a hinge ligament that 288 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: keeps the two shell pieces together and able to open, 289 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: but there's also an adductor muscle that keeps the shell 290 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: closed unless they need a little gap. There are gills 291 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: for filter feeding and gas exchange. There's a heart, and 292 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: there's also a muscular foot that extends out from between 293 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: the shells to burrow into the sea bed. And those 294 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: shells are made of calcium carbonate. The mantle, or outermost 295 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: layer of the muscle secretes proteins and minerals that create 296 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: a framework for the shell, which the calcium carbonate binds 297 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: too as it is released. Anytime the animal grows, the 298 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: outermost edge of the shell extends, and as each growth 299 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: cycle completes, a ring is formed. So counting those rings 300 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: enables scientists to gauge the age of the cohog. Because 301 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: some rings may be only subtly different from those adjacent 302 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: to them, it's really necessary to look at these rings 303 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: quite close, thus the removal of the shells. So why 304 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 1: are we walking through all of this? Well, when the 305 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: Banger team started studying the shell samples they collected back 306 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: in the lab, they discovered that one of the coohog 307 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: they had found was four hundred and five years old. 308 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: So the headlines that followed this called this the world's 309 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: longest lived animal. Researchers named this ko hoog Ming because 310 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: it had been born when the Ming dynasty ruled China. 311 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: This was a record breaking age. The oldest animal title 312 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: had officially been held for two dozen years by another 313 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: clam listed in the Guinness Book of World Records is 314 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: two hundred and twenty years old. But there was also 315 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: another that wasn't in the Guinness Book, and that was 316 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: one that was part of a collection of a German 317 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: museum whose age was claimed to have been three hundred 318 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: and seventy four when it was harvested. When The Times 319 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: of London wrote about this discovery, it opened with quote, 320 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: a clam dredged alive from the bottom of the North 321 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: Atlantic has been identified by scientists as the longest living 322 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: animal ever known. Unfortunately, by the time its true age 323 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: had been established, the three point four inch clam was 324 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: already dead, but the British scientists who discovered it believed 325 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: it could yield valuable information to help research into aging. 326 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: The Times went on to explain that the team had 327 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: received a forty thousand pound grant to use their finding 328 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: and aging related work by the charity group helped the aged. 329 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: In an interview with the BBC that published on October 330 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: twenty eight, two thousand seven, Chris Richardson, a professor from 331 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: Bangor University, explained, quote what's intriguing the Bangor group as 332 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: how these animals have actually managed an effect to escape 333 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: senescence that's growing old. One of the reasons we think 334 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: is that the animals have got some difference in cell 335 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: turnover rates we would associate with much shorter lived animals. 336 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: He also explained how their work might map out the 337 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: history of climate as it occurred during Ming's lifetime, saying, 338 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 1: quote the growth increments themselves provide a record of how 339 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: the animal has varied in its growth rate from year 340 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: to year, and that varies according to climate, seawater temperature, 341 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: and food supply, and so by looking at these mollusks, 342 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: we can reconstruct the environment that animals grew in. They 343 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: are like tiny tape recorders, in effect, sitting on the 344 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: seabed and integrating signals about water, temperature and food over time. 345 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: Almost as soon as the news went public of this 346 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: record breaking cohog, there was public outcry. People were angry 347 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: that Ming had been killed as part of the research. 348 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: The research team had explained in interviews and press releases 349 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: that studying these clams could help humans understand the process 350 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: of aging much more deeply in a way that could 351 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: benefit humans. They had also stated that another goal of 352 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: their ongoing work was to look at the last century 353 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: of climate as it was reflected in these samples, and 354 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: then see if there was a significant difference to patterns 355 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: of climate in the centuries that preceded it. But some 356 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: people seem to think that the scientists had killed Ming 357 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: knowing it was more than four hundred because they wanted 358 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: to study it further. That was completely incorrect. They had 359 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: not been able to determine the cohog's age until after 360 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: it was killed. The research group had no reason to 361 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: think any of the collected clams were extraordinary. The Daily 362 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: Telegraph of London ran an obituary for Ming, noting that 363 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 1: it had grown from a larva when Queen Elizabeth I 364 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: was still on the throne. This oh bit noted the 365 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: various historical events that the clam had lived through, including 366 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: the Gunpowder Plot, the Glorious Revolution. Also noted that by 367 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: being an ocean floor dweller, Ming had been spared more 368 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: unpleasant events like the Potato famine, the plague, and World 369 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: War two. On a completely different note of Curtis's some 370 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: questions arose about whether Ming could really be considered the 371 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: oldest animal ever discovered, because there are coral that are older, 372 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: but coral is made up of multiple individual corals that 373 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: grow together to form the larger hole. So to sidestep 374 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: any confusion and to clarify the claim, researchers started qualifying 375 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: the superlative by saying that Ming was the oldest non 376 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: colonial animal, not having anything to do with any colonialism, 377 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: just colonies of animals. In twenty thirteen, there was a recount. 378 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: Really this was an additional examination of Ming's shell, but 379 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: researchers did once again count the bivalves rings, this time 380 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: using more advanced methods than had been available previously. This 381 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: time they discovered that Ming was a lot older than 382 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: they previously calculated five hundred and seven. That would make 383 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: Ming thirty four when Queen Elizabeth the First was born. Also, 384 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: a contemporary of figures like Christopher Columbus Leonardo da Vinci 385 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: would have been painting the Mona Lisa at the time. 386 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: The team published their findings from this seven year project 387 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: in the periodical paleo Geography, Paleoclimatology paleo Ecology in March 388 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. That was in a paper titled variability of 389 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: marine climate on the North Atlantic Shelf in a thirteen 390 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: fifty seven year proxy archive based on growth increments in 391 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 1: the bivalve Arctica Islandica. This paper details the historical ocean 392 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: record that has been established through this study and notes 393 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: that shells offer a unique opportunity to create such a record, 394 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: and it describes their sample collection from seven years earlier 395 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: quote live specimens, dead articulated shells and dead single shell 396 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: valves of a Islandica were collected from the seabed during 397 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: a cruise of the research vessel Bjarnie Simonson in June 398 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: two thousand. The collection site of the shells used in 399 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: this study was west of the island of Grimsey in 400 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: a water depth of eighty one to eighty three meters. 401 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: Live specimens were frozen on board and thought and processed 402 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: after return to the laboratory. So despite having explained the 403 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: methods used to cross all the specimens in the study, 404 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: people were ready to be angry over this mollusk's death. 405 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: We'll talk about the second wave of outrage after we 406 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: hear from the sponsors that keep stuffiness in history class going. 407 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: Almost immediately after the team published their paper, news stories 408 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: once again came out suggesting wrongdoing on the part of 409 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: the research team, and it ignored the established information that 410 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: they had not known they had such an old living 411 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: specimen on board at the time that they collected and 412 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: froze them. The Metro UK tabloid ran a story on 413 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: November thirteenth of twenty thirteen under the headline Bungling scientists 414 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: kill world's oldest creature, a clam after five hundred seven 415 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: years in c Oddly, this otherwise misleading article includes an 416 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: actual quote from one of the researchers regarding the usefulness 417 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: of the work that the study was doing regarding the 418 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: science of aging. The Christian Science Monitor covered the story 419 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: two days later with the headline Scientists discover world's oldest clam, 420 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: killing it in the process, and this particular article also 421 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: emphasized the clam's death, stating, but that is as old 422 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: as ming will ever get. CBS News wrote of the 423 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,479 Speaker 1: work the team was doing, quote either way ming an 424 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: arctica ilandica, bivalve mollusc or ocean cohog is still dead 425 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: and he could have been saved if they just counted 426 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: the outside growth rings instead of the rings along the 427 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: interior hingeley ligament. An interview given to Science Nordic before 428 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: this article ran, which that CBS News story references, had 429 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: explained why the interior was the best bet. At the 430 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: time of that first count, the hinge ligaments offered the 431 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: best and most accurate information. They're not getting dinged around 432 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: by other stuff in the ocean. Marine biologist Rob Whitbard 433 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: told Science Nordic, quote the age has been confirmed with 434 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: a variety of methods, including geochemical methods such as the 435 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: carbon fourteen method, so I am very confident that they 436 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: have now determined the right age. If there is any error, 437 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: it can be only one or two years. Just a 438 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: day after this tabloid story, the BBC ran one titled Clamgate, 439 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: The Epic Saga of Ming, which walked readers through the 440 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: initial discovery, the revision of the known age of the clam, 441 00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: and the level to which this entire story was misunderstood. 442 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: Research or mention that the team had gotten emails calling 443 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: them clam murderers. But in that interview with the BBC 444 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: that ran in November twenty thirteen, the research team pointed 445 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: out that there was a double standard that their work 446 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: faced amid the negative reactions, noting that quote, the same 447 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: species of clam are caught commercially and eaten daily. Anyone 448 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: who has eaten clam chowder in New England has probably 449 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: eaten flesh from this species, many of which are likely 450 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: several hundred years old. Additionally, the chances are that there 451 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: is an even older mollusk out there somewhere. Once these 452 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: clams reach a certain age, they don't grow all that 453 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: much each year, so a five hundred year old clam 454 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: is not that different in size from a two hundred 455 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: year old one, So it would be very easy to 456 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: pick up one that is much much older, not know 457 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: it and put it in chowder. You can now see 458 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: ming for yourself if you wish, at the National Museum, Cardiff, 459 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: where its story and the science associated with it are 460 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: integrated into the museum's Insight Gallery. Our last entry in 461 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: this episode is short, but Holly was very tickled by it. 462 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: This features a very old bird who is, as of 463 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: when we are recording, still alive, a blue and gold 464 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: macaw named Charlie. Charlie is believed to have hatched in 465 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety nine, so she's one hundred and twenty three 466 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: or one hundred and twenty four, and she's known as 467 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: Charlie the Cursor, sometimes also described as Winston Churchill's parrot, 468 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: but that is contested. In January two thousand and four, 469 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: the Daily Mirror, so Yes, another tabloid, ran a very 470 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: colorful story about Charlie catapulting her onto the international stage. 471 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: I could not get my hands on that original article, 472 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: but in it all of the information was repeated in 473 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: many other places. The claim was made that Charlie routinely 474 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: uttered the phrases blank Hitler and blank Nazis, and she 475 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: had been taught those phrases with the word blank being 476 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: replaced to an expletive by none other than her former owner, 477 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: Sir Winston Churchill, and that when she said these things, 478 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: she sounded exactly like Churchill and Charlie's owner, a man 479 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: named Peter Orum, stood by this claim and told news 480 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: outlets repeatedly that his father in law, Percy Dabner, was 481 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: a well known dealer in birds and sold Charlie to 482 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister in nineteen thirty seven, and that then, 483 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: when Churchill died in nineteen sixty five, Charlie was returned 484 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: to the Croydon pet shop she had come from. Today 485 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: she's part of Heathfield Nurseries, which is owned by Orum, 486 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: and employees of the nursery have also gone on record 487 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: repeating that same story. Here is the problem. Churchill's country estate, 488 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: known as Chartwell, is now part of the National Trust, 489 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: and as such it has a staff that retains the 490 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: historical records of the property and the Prime Minister's time there, 491 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: and they have found no evidence. Despite a lot of digging, 492 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: it sounds like that Charlie was ever Winston Churchill's bird. 493 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: The New York Times did some digging into the matter 494 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,719 Speaker 1: and spoke with Judith Seaward, who worked at Chartwell and 495 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: was its marketing manager and head of visitor services at 496 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: the time. Her statement to the press was this quote, 497 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: Sir Winston had a variety of livestock and once owned 498 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,959 Speaker 1: a budgeregard that's a budgy if any of you have 499 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: like pet birds. I didn't recognize it as a budge 500 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: by the word. He also had a completely different kind 501 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: of parrot some years previously. But Lady Solmes is absolutely 502 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: certain that this macaw was not her father's Seaward also 503 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: of the possibility it seemed kind of like a peacemaking 504 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: move that the macaw might have belonged to someone on 505 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: staff at Chartwell rather than Churchill the Lady Solmes. The 506 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: reference to there was, as the quote indicated, Churchill's daughter, 507 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: the author, Mary Solmes. She told the BBC in two 508 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: thousand and four quote, for the war, we did have 509 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: an African gray for about three years, but that's quite 510 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: quite different from a macaw. It's smaller or more compact, 511 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: with a sort of red face. It never came to London. 512 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: It may well have gone back for all I know, 513 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: to the person my father got it from. But it 514 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: was the end of the parrot's relationship with my father. 515 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: So by her account, there was not a bird in 516 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: the Churchill household while her father was Prime Minister, definitely 517 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: none that he kept until his death. She also gave 518 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: her opinion on the claim that her father might have 519 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: taught a bird to curse Nazis, saying it was quote 520 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: too tiresome for words. And although the Mirror claimed that 521 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: Charlie was famed for cursing in front of visitors, there's 522 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: no actual evidence of the bird cursing at all, other 523 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: than people's words. Charlie has been visited by various journalists 524 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: over the years, hoping to catch a recording of her 525 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: famously inappropriate language. I think the most recent when I 526 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: found was from twenty fourteen. But she seems to mostly 527 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: just give a croaky squawk. She is a very mature lady, 528 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: and say just a few benign words, including hello and goodbye. Uh. 529 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: We accidentally have a theme in what we're recording this week, 530 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: because the next thing we're going to record also has 531 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: a lot of things that it's like different people are 532 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: different publications reporting the same in accurate thing. Yeah, ooof 533 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: the old animals. Okay, my first listener email is from 534 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: our listener Holly Frye, who has a correction. It's a 535 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: minor correction and it's actually kind of a like, Ah, 536 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I think it was in the behind 537 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,719 Speaker 1: the scenes that I mentioned that Thomas Hicks, who was 538 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: the winner of the nineteen oh four Olympic Marathon despite 539 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: having been poisoned, didn't run again to the best of 540 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: my knowledge, Like I had seen a mention of him 541 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: where it was like he did not do any more 542 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: running after that. But then I was just reviewing stuff 543 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: recently that I had had in relation to that episode 544 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: to make sure I hadn't missed any in the sources list, 545 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: and I saw a thing from Runners World, and that 546 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: suggested that he did keep running for a while and 547 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: then moved to Canada. But I didn't find backup on 548 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: that either, So just FYI, I may have made a 549 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: false statement about his running career. And then I have 550 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: a listener mail from our listener Anna, but she mentioned 551 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: something that I believe we have talked about on the show. 552 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: It's also related to the marathon. Anna writes, thank you 553 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: for so many wonderful episodes, the excellent nineteen oh four 554 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: marathon one inspired me to mention the delightful coverage of 555 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen twelve Stockholm Olympics in the Jim Thorpe bio 556 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: path Lit by Lightning. I think you mentioned that when 557 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: we talked about Jim Thorpe, or you used it, but 558 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: I'm not positive. I don't immediately recall author author David 559 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: Moranis includes the exagger and poor performance of rich kid 560 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,240 Speaker 1: Georges Payton to modern pentathlon, such a weird event, including 561 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: being dosed with opium before the four thousand meter run. 562 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: Have a great day. I don't have any cats, so 563 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: I'm including a photo of the kittens my friend Area 564 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: is currently fostering. Kitten pictures are like weapons grade cute 565 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: to me. I'm powerless in front of them. Thank you 566 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: so much. Anna. It is really really interesting when you 567 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: start looking back at Olympic sports and I know it's 568 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: still an issue where you know, doping is still something 569 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: that's constantly a concern and investigated, But like I just 570 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, uh, you know, the idea that opium 571 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: and strych nine would be performance and answers continues to 572 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: blow my mind. So I just every time I think 573 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 1: about it, it's like my brain has like this clicking 574 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: thing where it can't quite reset because it just seems 575 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: so wrong. I know, well, poison people. That'll make them 576 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: run faster some excuse. Yes, if you would like to 577 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: write to us, especially if you have foster kit pictures, 578 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: but you don't have to, you could do that at 579 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 1: History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. You can also find 580 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: us on the internet on all of the social media's 581 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: as Missed in History And if you have not subscribed 582 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: to the podcast but you think that might be a 583 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: fun thing to do, you can do that on the 584 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app or anywhere you listen to your favorite shows. 585 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 586 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 587 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.