WEBVTT - Suffer the Little Children 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:05.040 Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:06.560 and Mild from Aaron Minky. 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:09.360 Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:15.440 Without further ado, really bring the house down, make some 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:20.960 noise for the Haunted Road podcast host Amy Brunie. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.560 Holy moly, thank you, guys. I appreciate. I'm just making 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.400 sure everything's working. So, as I stated before, I don't 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:34.280 know that all of you are in here when I 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.680 said this, but there is definitely a content warning today. 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:42.199 This is a really heavy episode of Haunted Road. I 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.120 have Kleenex in my pocket. It will be a miracle 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:47.839 if I make it through this without crying, So just 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:50.640 be ready. Okay, So, if you haven't heard Haunted Road before, 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:55.480 the first half, we delve deep into the history of 0:00:55.520 --> 0:01:00.000 a haunted location, and then the second half I interview 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.280 someone who has knowledge of the hauntings there and so 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.400 we talk about the paranormal experiences. So, without further ADO, 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:13.600 let's get started, Okay. In some ways, Penhurst Asylum was 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.520 a paragon of progressive thinking about how to treat people 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.800 with cognitive disabilities, giving them social support and a safe 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.400 place to live where they could be protected from the 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.600 dangers of a judgmental society presented to their health and safety. 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:31.920 To many who had nowhere else to go, it promised 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:36.160 to be a dream scenario, but the dream was well 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:41.039 a dream. Penhurst may have opened with the best of intentions, 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.240 but it didn't end up that way. And it's seventy 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:48.160 nine years of operation, the asylum was characterized by the 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:53.200 harshest of patient mistreatment. It's more than ten thousand residents 0:01:53.280 --> 0:02:01.040 were subjected to what the Philadelphia Inquirer described as medical experimentation, punishments, 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:05.800 and constant threats to physical and psychological well being. Residents 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:10.160 were trapped, forced into labor against their will, unable to leave, 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.200 out of control of the most basic elements of their 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:17.880 own lives, and that was the adults. Children under five 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.400 years old were kept in cages, lying in their own 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:25.520 filth for days on end. As one newspaper put it 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:30.920 in nineteen seventy two, Penhurst Asylum was the shame of Pennsylvania. 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:35.080 Many inmates stayed there as long as thirty five years, 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:41.640 and some never left. I'm Amy Bruney, and this is 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:47.880 haunted road. Penhurst Asylum originally opened in nineteen oh eight 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:52.600 as the Eastern Pennsylvania Institution for the feeble minded and epileptic. 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.960 According to the Penhurst Memorial and Preservation Alliance, it was 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.880 once seen as a model institution. At the time the 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.360 asylum opened, people with mental illness and cognitive disabilities were 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:09.600 called defectives and were dealt with in horrific ways like 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:15.079 forced segregation from society and even sterilization. As the Alliance 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:20.080 described in the eighteen hundreds, defectives and other dependent deviant 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.680 groups such as aged paupers and the sick poor were 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.280 grouped together and sold to the lowest bidder. Built in 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:31.240 Spring City, Pennsylvania, Penhurst promised to be the antidote to 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.480 that kind of treatment. Before the asylum opened, the state 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.080 legislature organized a commission in nineteen o three to get 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:41.560 a sense of the needs of that underserved population. They 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:46.000 found nearly four thousand residents who were either incarcerated or 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.720 were in poorhouses or hospitals for the insane, who were 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.400 all in desperate need of actual care for their conditions. 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.880 Penhurst was designed to hold five hundred people, with room 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.760 for expansion, but the need far outweighed the space. The 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.680 asylum was overcrowded almost from the day it opened. Within 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.480 five years of admitting its first patients. Penhurst was under 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:14.960 pressure from the legislature to admit immigrants, orphans, and criminals 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.560 the state did not know how to handle. Pennsylvania created 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.680 a Commission for the Care of the Feeble Minded, who 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.520 pushed those with cognitive impairments into Penhurst to prevent them 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:30.279 from cro creating and passing down their genes, calling them 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:34.599 a menace to the peace. Immigrants designated as feeble minded 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:39.240 immigrants were deemed unfit for American citizenship, and the state 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.200 demanded they be to admit it into custody. In report 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.600 to the state, Penhurst's chief physician quoted Henry H. Goddard, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:51.120 a leading eugenicist, by saying, every feeble minded person is 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:55.279 a potential criminal. The general public, although more convinced today 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.599 than ever before that it is a good thing to 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.920 segregate the idiot or the distinct imbecile, they have not 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.560 as yet been convinced as to proper treatment of the 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.719 defective delinquent, which is the brighter and more dangerous individual. 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.720 As the Philadelphia Inquirer reported, by nineteen fifty seven, the 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.479 institution had more than thirty five hundred residents with just 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.960 six hundred staff from grounds keepers to aids. That number 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:25.080 rose to forty one hundred patients by the early nineteen sixties. 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.320 The newspaper further reported that by the nineteen sixties, the 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:33.360 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania was appropriating more than two million dollars 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:37.320 a year for Penhurst operations, and the facility's residents were 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:41.360 impressed into a forced labor system the Supreme Court would 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:46.800 rebuke as peonage or involuntary servile labor. Residents had lost 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.840 their fundamental freedoms, including the right to leave or to 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.839 exercise the most basic of life choices. A local news 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.799 station aired a documentary in nineteen sixty eight called Suffer 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:02.800 the Little Children that laid bare the horrible mistreatment at Penhurst. 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.080 Among the many horrifying revelations in the documentary was reporter 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:12.119 Bill Baldini's discovery that large American zoos were spending more 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.479 per day to feed their animals than the States spent 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:20.120 on the people in the asylum. As the Philadelphia Inquirer 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:24.960 described it, the documentary shattered Philadelphians and other Americans' easy 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.760 complacency and blind indifference to what had been occurring for 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:34.240 decades behind institutional walls. Far removed from public scrutiny. Baldini 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.320 later said that he had trouble keeping his camera crew 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:41.000 on the documentary shoot because they were literally getting sick 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:46.120 from what they saw. Matt Lake, Rusty Tagliarini, and Mark 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.560 Moran wrote about Penhurst for Weird New Jerseys, saying on 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:53.200 the flickering monochrome televisions of the time came images of 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.360 full grown hands and feet bound by straps to adult 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:01.440 sized crib beds. Inmates of the institution were shown rocking, pacing, 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.599 and twitching. Many were severely disabled, either mentally or physically, 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.840 but others were quite lucid and coherent, but withdrawn into 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.440 themselves because of overstimulation of the senses in the loud 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:18.400 and sometimes frightening place. When one patient was asked by 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.040 the interviewer what he would like most in the world 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.520 if he could have anything he wanted, the sad and 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:29.840 withdrawn reply was simply to get out of Penhurst. The 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:34.320 documentary caused public outcry and spurred widespread calls for changes 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.160 to the treatment of and constitutional rights for the mentally disabled. 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:43.200 Baldini later told NPR about the horrors he saw in 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.120 the asylum. Think of a ward of infants and children 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.560 from the ages of six months to five years old. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:53.480 He said, there are eighty of them in metal cages. 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:58.120 These people were literally lying in their own feces for days. 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.960 According to Weird New Jersey, probably the most chilling scene 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:06.480 showed one of the hospital's physicians describing how he dealt 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.280 with a particularly vicious bully who had brutalized one of 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.040 his other inmates. He described how he had asked one 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:18.040 of his colleagues which injection he could use to cause 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.800 the most discomfort to a patient without permanently injuring him. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.920 Then he proceeded to administer that injection to the bully. 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.960 That was a common punishment in Penhurst. Doctors would use 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:35.040 what they called harmless but painful injections as recourse for 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:41.120 bad behavior, even on children. In nineteen seventy, medical sociologist 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:45.520 Jim Conroy arrived at Penhurst to research the developmental disabilities. 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.240 As he told NPR, I saw a place with thirty 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.000 seven hundred people in it that was built for far 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:56.200 far fewer, and I saw things that I will never forget. 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:01.079 In nineteen seventy two, local newspaper The Mercury called Penhurst 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:06.360 the shame of Pennsylvania, describing seventeen hundred human beings stored 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.600 away in crumbling warehouses. The urine's stench of decades soaked 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.040 so deeply into the walls and floors that it can 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.520 never be washed out. About half of the more than 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.680 ten thousand inmates housed in Penhurst died there, largely due 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:25.319 to patient mistreatment and neglect. In nineteen seventy four, patient 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.400 Terry Lee Halderman filed a complaint with the state on 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:32.120 behalf of all other Penhurst residents about their treatment. The 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:36.800 complaint alleged that the residents live in inhumane and dangerous conditions, 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:41.200 are subjected to unnecessary physical restraints, are given unnecessary and 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.880 dangerous medication, are consigned to lives of idleness and because 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.640 of lack of habilitative programs, and are subject to numerous 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.960 physical injuries resulted from a lack of adequate supervision. The 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:58.120 complaint further alleged that this treatment caused Halderman and her 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:03.880 class to deteriorate and regret emotionally, intellectually, and physically, and 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.319 that they were being denied due process and equal protection 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.600 of the law and inflicted on them cruel and unusual 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:16.199 punishment unimaginably bad treatment came to light as a result 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.560 of this case. Patients who were in crisis could go 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.760 days without seeing a psychologist for treatment. When they were 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.920 in a crisis situation, they would most likely be restrained 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.800 through either physical or chemical measures. People could be bound 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.760 to a bed or a chair, or sedated with unusually 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:37.560 high doses of psychoactive drugs. According to the Penhurst Memorial 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.960 and Preservation Alliance, psychotropic drugs at Penhurst are often used 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.720 for control and not for treatment, and the rate of 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.040 drug use on some of the units is extraordinarily high. 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.160 In nineteen seventy eight, the court ordered that Penhurst be 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.160 closed and that its remaining twelve hundred residents be provided 0:10:56.160 --> 0:11:00.880 living arrangements and support services. To accomplish this, special Master 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.520 was appointed to supervise the arrangements. The asylum was to 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:08.160 stay open until that work was finished. In nineteen eighty one, 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:13.080 Time described the place as having a history of being understaffed, dirty, 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.520 and violent. The hospital was on its way to closing, 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:18.800 but for the patients it must have seemed like the 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.920 hell was never coming to an end. By nineteen eighty three, 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.760 Penhurst had six hundred forty patients, who had been there 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.520 an average of thirty five years at that time. The 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:32.160 Department of Justice indicted nine present and former aids for 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:36.760 assaulting and abusing patients, including beating patients, some of whom 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:41.160 were confined to wheelchairs, and forcing patients to assault each other. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.839 A study following patients released from Penhurst was ordered by 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:49.040 the court as part of the hospital's closure. Its results 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:53.760 were released in nineteen eighty five. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.120 the researchers followed one thy one hundred and fifty four 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.000 people who lived at Penhurst and found that none became 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.920 became homeless or incarcerated. They tended to live at least 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:08.600 six years longer, and fourteen percent became more independent. Almost 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.400 all said that they were better off outside of Penhurst. 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:16.199 Despite a reported nineteen percent increase in services, the cost 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.600 of taxpayers went down by fifteen percent compared to funding Penhurst. 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:25.400 In nineteen eighty seven, the last patient left Penhurst, and 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:31.440 the asylum was finally closed in the nineteen nineties. Part 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.880 of the building briefly served as a veteran's home, but 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.920 was sold to a private developer in the early two thousands. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:41.320 Under the Penhurst Memorial and Preservation Alliance. It was added 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:45.640 to the international Coalition of Sites of Conscience, a worldwide 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:51.400 network of historic sites specifically dedicated to remembering struggles for justice. 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.760 In twenty ten, part of the campus was reopened as 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:59.760 a seasonal Haunted attraction, which immediately started pulling in as 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.240 much just two million dollars annually from people eager to 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.920 experience the place. But given the Asylum's dark history, many 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:12.400 locals in those previously affiliated with Penhurst objected to that use, 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:17.280 especially since the attraction misrepresented much of what happened there 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:22.440 in the past. Reporter Bill Baldini, whose documentary brought the 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:27.199 asylum's atrocities to light, and Jim Conroy, the medical sociologist 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.559 who spoke publicly about his experiences there, said they believed 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:35.120 the site shouldn't be trivialized as a haunted house, but 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.440 rather be a memorial to the past. As Diana M. 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.960 Kadovich wrote for the National Council on Public History, the 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.439 first version of the Haunted Asylum was as bad as anticipated. 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.720 A fictional doctor and his minions were shown experimenting on 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.080 asylum inmates in a minor nod to the history of 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.960 Penhurst's patrons. Were able to view artifacts retrieved from the property, 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:03.800 notably a dentist's chair an electroshock therapy machine. Yet historical 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.880 fact and shock fiction were poorly separated, and visitors were 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:11.400 left to wonder which was which. The council quoted disability 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.600 studies historian Sarah Hanley Cousins is saying, I like a 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.679 ghost story as much as anyone, but the patients who 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.920 lived at Penhurst weren't spooky spirits. They were human beings 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:27.480 with complex lives. In twenty seventeen, ownership changed and the 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.960 new owner and general manager created an environment intended to 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:35.640 be more respectful to the disabled community, As Diana Kadovich wrote, 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.880 aware of the unintended consequences of a conflated story, they 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.880 changed features of the attraction and empowered a group of 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:47.760 disabled performers with creative control. More than half of the performers, 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:51.960 called the Haunters, identify as disabled, a few even half 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:57.120 personal histories of institutionalization. This new Haunted Asylum turns the 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.480 original plot on its head. The Haunters each assume a 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.160 fictional identity, and the inmates conspire to take over the 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.240 asylum from the professionals. The fictional doctors nurses and the 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:14.480 visitors become the new inmates. Today, Penhurst offers daytime history 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.920 tours and overnight paranormal investigations. While many buildings on the 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.280 campus were deemed unsafe and have been torn down, others 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:27.400 are maintained through proceeds of those tours. Jim Ansbach, founder 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:31.360 of the Shore Paranormal Research Society, which regularly investigates Penhurst, 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.640 says the asylum is rife with paranormal activity. Weird New 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.000 Jersey wrote that the group has conducted several large scale 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:43.040 investigations of the old asylums many buildings, and documented a 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:48.119 variety of evidence of paranormal activity, including photos, videos, recordings 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:52.640 of voice phenomena, and personal encounters with spirits. Among the 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.680 recordings are the sounds of disembodied voices uttering things like 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:02.320 go away, I'll kill you, were upset, and why did 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:07.360 you come here? An unknown male states I'm scared, while 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.880 an invisible female asks why won't you leave? In the 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:16.360 Administration building, investigators have said they've picked up disembodied voices 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.120 and the sounds of toilets flushing though there's no running 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.000 water or the building. And other buildings, people claim to 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:27.760 hear children's voices and EVPs of distressed adults. According to Shore, 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.640 a firefighter police officer Anna Marine All saw a woman 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.720 in an old style nurse's uniform in the Limerick Building. 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.080 Investigators claim to have been touched in the Mayflower Building 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.480 and the Tinycum Building, and to have seen shadow figures 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.600 manifest and dissipate in the Quaker Building. These shadows include 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:48.680 what appeared to be a girl with long black hair, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.880 a hunched over presence with long dangling arms, and figures 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.880 poking out from behind obstacles. Doors and a rocking chair 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.880 have moves on their own, and objects like pride bars 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:04.520 and brass pixtures have been observed being thrown by unseen forces. 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.840 And investigators have also been physically harmed. According to Shore, 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:13.119 one was shoved from behind hard enough on a stairway 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.280 to leave a deep red mark, and another was scratched 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:30.879 on the arm. Now I have investigated Penhurst a number 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:35.000 of times, including once on live television where I proceeded 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.679 to drop an F bomb while millions of people were watching. 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.960 So here to talk more about that experience, as well 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:44.840 as many others, are two of my dear friends who 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.320 have also both spent quite some time investigating the asylum. 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:57.800 Mister Aaron Sagers and mister Adam Berry. Welcome my friends. 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.639 Oh no, I didn't turn your microphones on it and 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:04.760 want them to actually hear you. 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:11.880 Thanks for having us. This is Haunted Row. I'm Amy Brune. 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:15.480 May the fourth be with you? 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.359 Okay, So real talk. We have investigated Penhurst quite a 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:25.320 few times. Strangely, we're actually going back there next weekend 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.479 or ericon. I'm just gonna be cool. It is one 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:31.879 of those places I feel like you have to be 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:36.120 very cognizant of the history, and I think that we've 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.040 gotten so much better at that in recent years. I'm 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.240 sure the first time I investigated there, I was completely 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.840 guilty of just kind of being like, oh, terrible things 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.520 happen here. It's super haunted. How cool. And then I 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.639 actually took the time to watch that documentary it's on 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.919 YouTube and you see what happened there and it is appalling. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.640 So but so, just talk a little bit more, like Arin, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.639 you've investigated there many times over the years. What first 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.280 brought you to Penhurst? 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.720 I think it was actually for an event the very 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.520 first time I went there, but actually many years ago, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.360 I was working as a reporter at some newspapers in 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.240 the Philadelphia area. So maybe I went there first for 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:25.880 one of their Haunted House attractions, and even then, honestly, 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.640 it didn't sit right with me because this is one 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:34.080 of those locations that, look, it just has it's a 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:36.240 city of shame. It really is a city, and it 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.800 has such a dark legacy that it makes you angry 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:43.640 when you go there and you're aware of what took 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.159 place there, and the fact that it also was taking 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:50.280 place in my lifetime. I was ten years old when 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:55.679 it closed, so it's this recent history and it's disgusting. 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:57.720 But yeah, the very first time I think I went 0:19:57.720 --> 0:19:59.560 there was for the Haunted House, and the first time 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:01.040 I invested get it was part of an event. 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.920 Okay, mister Barry, I went with someone named Amy Bruney. 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:08.399 I wasn't sure if it was one of your Ghost 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.159 Hunters Academy locations. 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.200 I never know, No, Waverley, Actually we're going to Oh yeah, 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.840 it was the very first place I ever investigated on television. 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.240 I mean, you and I investigated that on Ghost Hunters, 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:23.520 and and I remember, you're right, we were in a 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.359 different mindset in a way. We were excited to get 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:31.600 to this incredibly historic haunted location. We were It was 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.000 multiple nights, which is a big deal for when we 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.680 investigated something like that. But I think for us, we 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.119 were we didn't know what to expect, right, and you 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.840 and I we had we were in Philadelphia, so we 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.000 had just started investigation. This is probably a month into 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.480 us working together, that's true, So we were still sort 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:51.240 of getting our feet wet on you know, how we 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.600 interact with each other and what experiences we will have. 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.800 But I know that the activity that we had there 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:01.400 flipped our brains in side out because it was it 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:06.280 was really incredible activity. But at that point, I think 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:08.640 we didn't know what to do with that information. 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.520 I guess, right, I mean I think that I actually 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:14.679 I think I wrote about one of the experiences we 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:19.080 had there in the book, which was and this happened 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:20.840 not on the lot. Was this on the live show? 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:22.480 When we heard that thing in the closet? 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:24.520 I don't know that was it? Yeah? That was, yeah, 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:25.160 on the live show. 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:26.840 So we'll talk about that experience. 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.320 Yes, So Amy and I were in the I guess 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.960 it would be the children's section wherever they said the 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.760 heart of hearing would be. And I think when we 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:39.920 started hearing those kind of thoughts where oh the kids were, 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:42.560 you know, just they had a physical disability where they 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:44.840 couldn't hear or they couldn't see, they were put in 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:47.840 here to us. I mean that was already like what 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.280 are you talking about? Like there are schools for the 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.080 blind and death, Like what are you doing? But we 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:55.880 were in that section, and I remember being on the 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:59.600 third or fourth floor and she and I you know, 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.439 were slowly walking through to get our bearings, and we 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.800 started asking questions and then to the left of us, 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:12.000 down the hallway, you could hear what sounded like a 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:17.600 footstep and a drag, so it was like step step, 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.920 like step dry and she and I looked at each 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.720 other like what the actual is that? And we were 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.880 looking down this hallway nothing was there. And then almost 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:33.040 instantaneously after that, we heard what sounded like clawing, like 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:38.439 scratching and clawing on wood. And at this point, I 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:40.560 think they it's on television, but you can go back 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:42.680 and watch. But she and I are like on top 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:45.280 of each other, were and like back to back, and 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:47.080 we're sort of trying to like figure out where the 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.840 sound's coming from, what's happening, And we knew that the scratching. 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:54.040 It was like a scratch, clawing, scratching, like trying something, 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:55.119 trying to get out of something. 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:59.240 It was so incredibly loud, terrifying. It was so loud. 0:22:59.280 --> 0:23:01.199 I can't over state howbut it was. 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:03.720 And also your mind starts playing tricks on you because 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:07.119 you hear this step dragon. I picture horror movie. I 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:11.520 picture like the you know, some person walking down the 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:13.920 thing trying to get us. So we had to make 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:16.720 our way toward the sound, like any good horror movie, 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:21.120 and we pinpointed to this room. We walk into the room. 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:25.239 The scratching is still going on. It's louder. We know 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:28.480 it's coming from in front of us, where a closet 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:30.239 door is closed. 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:35.919 And we we thought animal. We were like, there's an 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.160 animal there. We were about to have our faces torn 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:40.600 off by whatever this is. 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:42.600 But and she was like, you open it. 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:43.640 That's true. You were new. 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:44.960 I was new. 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:45.840 You were new. 0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:50.080 And so she is standing maybe five feet away from 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:52.560 the door, and I'm like creeping up on the handle 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:55.959 like it's gonna pop out, And I take the handle 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:58.560 and I went and I opened it really quick and 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.560 jump back because I was a know something rabbit is 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:05.960 coming out of there, and that did not happen. There 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:10.720 was nothing in the closet. There was no signs of rodents, 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:14.160 there was no animal droppings. There did not smell of urine. 0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:17.280 It was just a normal closet. There were no holes 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:19.399 in the ceiling. And I think we even used the 0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:20.000 thermal imaging. 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:22.160 I was just gonna say we double checked. We brought 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:24.359 the thermal. The one time I enjoyed the thermal, I 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:26.200 was like, oh, we can see there's an animal in here. 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:28.960 There was no animal, no traces of animal, no signs 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:31.560 and animals trying to claw out in any section. And 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.320 we never heard it again ever and anywhere else in 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:37.560 that building. I mean, yes, of course it was stabited. 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:40.000 It could have been an animal, but we we checked 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:41.879 our boxes for that and it was wild. 0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:45.000 Yeah, No, that was That was terrifying. And what's so 0:24:45.040 --> 0:24:46.760 funny is that we were like, oh, a few, it's 0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:47.159 a ghost. 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:51.720 Yeah, We're like, oh right, oh great. I mean, you know, 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:55.800 thinking about that experience now, I sort of wonder what 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:58.280 that was though. Like you talk about, you know, the 0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:01.520 young children in cages and people being trapped and tied up. 0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:05.240 It's like, now, when I think about that a sound. 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:07.240 It's no longer spooky, it's sad. 0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:14.119 It's heartbreaking. Yeah, someone was confined and that was their reality, 0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:15.600 So what would they do? 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:18.359 It would well, that's just it. It's like if that 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:22.240 I imagine at some point someone was probably locked in 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:26.120