1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Minky. 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised. 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 3: Without further ado, really bring the house down, make some 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 3: noise for the Haunted Road podcast host Amy Brunie. 6 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: Holy moly, thank you, guys. I appreciate. I'm just making 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: sure everything's working. So, as I stated before, I don't 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: know that all of you are in here when I 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: said this, but there is definitely a content warning today. 10 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: This is a really heavy episode of Haunted Road. I 11 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: have Kleenex in my pocket. It will be a miracle 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: if I make it through this without crying, So just 13 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: be ready. Okay, So, if you haven't heard Haunted Road before, 14 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: the first half, we delve deep into the history of 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: a haunted location, and then the second half I interview 16 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: someone who has knowledge of the hauntings there and so 17 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: we talk about the paranormal experiences. So, without further ADO, 18 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: let's get started, Okay. In some ways, Penhurst Asylum was 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: a paragon of progressive thinking about how to treat people 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: with cognitive disabilities, giving them social support and a safe 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: place to live where they could be protected from the 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: dangers of a judgmental society presented to their health and safety. 23 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: To many who had nowhere else to go, it promised 24 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: to be a dream scenario, but the dream was well 25 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: a dream. Penhurst may have opened with the best of intentions, 26 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: but it didn't end up that way. And it's seventy 27 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: nine years of operation, the asylum was characterized by the 28 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: harshest of patient mistreatment. It's more than ten thousand residents 29 00:01:53,280 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: were subjected to what the Philadelphia Inquirer described as medical experimentation, punishments, 30 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: and constant threats to physical and psychological well being. Residents 31 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: were trapped, forced into labor against their will, unable to leave, 32 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: out of control of the most basic elements of their 33 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: own lives, and that was the adults. Children under five 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: years old were kept in cages, lying in their own 35 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: filth for days on end. As one newspaper put it 36 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, Penhurst Asylum was the shame of Pennsylvania. 37 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: Many inmates stayed there as long as thirty five years, 38 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: and some never left. I'm Amy Bruney, and this is 39 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: haunted road. Penhurst Asylum originally opened in nineteen oh eight 40 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: as the Eastern Pennsylvania Institution for the feeble minded and epileptic. 41 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: According to the Penhurst Memorial and Preservation Alliance, it was 42 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: once seen as a model institution. At the time the 43 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: asylum opened, people with mental illness and cognitive disabilities were 44 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: called defectives and were dealt with in horrific ways like 45 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: forced segregation from society and even sterilization. As the Alliance 46 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: described in the eighteen hundreds, defectives and other dependent deviant 47 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: groups such as aged paupers and the sick poor were 48 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: grouped together and sold to the lowest bidder. Built in 49 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: Spring City, Pennsylvania, Penhurst promised to be the antidote to 50 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: that kind of treatment. Before the asylum opened, the state 51 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: legislature organized a commission in nineteen o three to get 52 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: a sense of the needs of that underserved population. They 53 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: found nearly four thousand residents who were either incarcerated or 54 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: were in poorhouses or hospitals for the insane, who were 55 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: all in desperate need of actual care for their conditions. 56 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: Penhurst was designed to hold five hundred people, with room 57 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: for expansion, but the need far outweighed the space. The 58 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: asylum was overcrowded almost from the day it opened. Within 59 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: five years of admitting its first patients. Penhurst was under 60 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: pressure from the legislature to admit immigrants, orphans, and criminals 61 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: the state did not know how to handle. Pennsylvania created 62 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: a Commission for the Care of the Feeble Minded, who 63 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: pushed those with cognitive impairments into Penhurst to prevent them 64 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: from cro creating and passing down their genes, calling them 65 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: a menace to the peace. Immigrants designated as feeble minded 66 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: immigrants were deemed unfit for American citizenship, and the state 67 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: demanded they be to admit it into custody. In report 68 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: to the state, Penhurst's chief physician quoted Henry H. Goddard, 69 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: a leading eugenicist, by saying, every feeble minded person is 70 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: a potential criminal. The general public, although more convinced today 71 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: than ever before that it is a good thing to 72 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: segregate the idiot or the distinct imbecile, they have not 73 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: as yet been convinced as to proper treatment of the 74 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: defective delinquent, which is the brighter and more dangerous individual. 75 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: As the Philadelphia Inquirer reported, by nineteen fifty seven, the 76 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: institution had more than thirty five hundred residents with just 77 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: six hundred staff from grounds keepers to aids. That number 78 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: rose to forty one hundred patients by the early nineteen sixties. 79 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: The newspaper further reported that by the nineteen sixties, the 80 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: Commonwealth of Pennsylvania was appropriating more than two million dollars 81 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: a year for Penhurst operations, and the facility's residents were 82 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: impressed into a forced labor system the Supreme Court would 83 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: rebuke as peonage or involuntary servile labor. Residents had lost 84 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: their fundamental freedoms, including the right to leave or to 85 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: exercise the most basic of life choices. A local news 86 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 1: station aired a documentary in nineteen sixty eight called Suffer 87 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: the Little Children that laid bare the horrible mistreatment at Penhurst. 88 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: Among the many horrifying revelations in the documentary was reporter 89 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:12,119 Speaker 1: Bill Baldini's discovery that large American zoos were spending more 90 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: per day to feed their animals than the States spent 91 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: on the people in the asylum. As the Philadelphia Inquirer 92 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: described it, the documentary shattered Philadelphians and other Americans' easy 93 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: complacency and blind indifference to what had been occurring for 94 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: decades behind institutional walls. Far removed from public scrutiny. Baldini 95 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: later said that he had trouble keeping his camera crew 96 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: on the documentary shoot because they were literally getting sick 97 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: from what they saw. Matt Lake, Rusty Tagliarini, and Mark 98 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: Moran wrote about Penhurst for Weird New Jerseys, saying on 99 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: the flickering monochrome televisions of the time came images of 100 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: full grown hands and feet bound by straps to adult 101 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: sized crib beds. Inmates of the institution were shown rocking, pacing, 102 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: and twitching. Many were severely disabled, either mentally or physically, 103 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: but others were quite lucid and coherent, but withdrawn into 104 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: themselves because of overstimulation of the senses in the loud 105 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: and sometimes frightening place. When one patient was asked by 106 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: the interviewer what he would like most in the world 107 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: if he could have anything he wanted, the sad and 108 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: withdrawn reply was simply to get out of Penhurst. The 109 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: documentary caused public outcry and spurred widespread calls for changes 110 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: to the treatment of and constitutional rights for the mentally disabled. 111 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: Baldini later told NPR about the horrors he saw in 112 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: the asylum. Think of a ward of infants and children 113 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: from the ages of six months to five years old. 114 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: He said, there are eighty of them in metal cages. 115 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: These people were literally lying in their own feces for days. 116 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: According to Weird New Jersey, probably the most chilling scene 117 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: showed one of the hospital's physicians describing how he dealt 118 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: with a particularly vicious bully who had brutalized one of 119 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: his other inmates. He described how he had asked one 120 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: of his colleagues which injection he could use to cause 121 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: the most discomfort to a patient without permanently injuring him. 122 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: Then he proceeded to administer that injection to the bully. 123 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: That was a common punishment in Penhurst. Doctors would use 124 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: what they called harmless but painful injections as recourse for 125 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: bad behavior, even on children. In nineteen seventy, medical sociologist 126 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: Jim Conroy arrived at Penhurst to research the developmental disabilities. 127 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: As he told NPR, I saw a place with thirty 128 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: seven hundred people in it that was built for far 129 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: far fewer, and I saw things that I will never forget. 130 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy two, local newspaper The Mercury called Penhurst 131 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: the shame of Pennsylvania, describing seventeen hundred human beings stored 132 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: away in crumbling warehouses. The urine's stench of decades soaked 133 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: so deeply into the walls and floors that it can 134 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: never be washed out. About half of the more than 135 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: ten thousand inmates housed in Penhurst died there, largely due 136 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: to patient mistreatment and neglect. In nineteen seventy four, patient 137 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: Terry Lee Halderman filed a complaint with the state on 138 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: behalf of all other Penhurst residents about their treatment. The 139 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: complaint alleged that the residents live in inhumane and dangerous conditions, 140 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: are subjected to unnecessary physical restraints, are given unnecessary and 141 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: dangerous medication, are consigned to lives of idleness and because 142 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: of lack of habilitative programs, and are subject to numerous 143 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: physical injuries resulted from a lack of adequate supervision. The 144 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: complaint further alleged that this treatment caused Halderman and her 145 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: class to deteriorate and regret emotionally, intellectually, and physically, and 146 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: that they were being denied due process and equal protection 147 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: of the law and inflicted on them cruel and unusual 148 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: punishment unimaginably bad treatment came to light as a result 149 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: of this case. Patients who were in crisis could go 150 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: days without seeing a psychologist for treatment. When they were 151 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: in a crisis situation, they would most likely be restrained 152 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: through either physical or chemical measures. People could be bound 153 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: to a bed or a chair, or sedated with unusually 154 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: high doses of psychoactive drugs. According to the Penhurst Memorial 155 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: and Preservation Alliance, psychotropic drugs at Penhurst are often used 156 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: for control and not for treatment, and the rate of 157 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: drug use on some of the units is extraordinarily high. 158 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy eight, the court ordered that Penhurst be 159 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: closed and that its remaining twelve hundred residents be provided 160 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: living arrangements and support services. To accomplish this, special Master 161 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: was appointed to supervise the arrangements. The asylum was to 162 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: stay open until that work was finished. In nineteen eighty one, 163 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: Time described the place as having a history of being understaffed, dirty, 164 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: and violent. The hospital was on its way to closing, 165 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: but for the patients it must have seemed like the 166 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: hell was never coming to an end. By nineteen eighty three, 167 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: Penhurst had six hundred forty patients, who had been there 168 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: an average of thirty five years at that time. The 169 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: Department of Justice indicted nine present and former aids for 170 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: assaulting and abusing patients, including beating patients, some of whom 171 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: were confined to wheelchairs, and forcing patients to assault each other. 172 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: A study following patients released from Penhurst was ordered by 173 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: the court as part of the hospital's closure. Its results 174 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: were released in nineteen eighty five. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, 175 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: the researchers followed one thy one hundred and fifty four 176 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: people who lived at Penhurst and found that none became 177 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: became homeless or incarcerated. They tended to live at least 178 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: six years longer, and fourteen percent became more independent. Almost 179 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: all said that they were better off outside of Penhurst. 180 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: Despite a reported nineteen percent increase in services, the cost 181 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: of taxpayers went down by fifteen percent compared to funding Penhurst. 182 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty seven, the last patient left Penhurst, and 183 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: the asylum was finally closed in the nineteen nineties. Part 184 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: of the building briefly served as a veteran's home, but 185 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: was sold to a private developer in the early two thousands. 186 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: Under the Penhurst Memorial and Preservation Alliance. It was added 187 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: to the international Coalition of Sites of Conscience, a worldwide 188 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: network of historic sites specifically dedicated to remembering struggles for justice. 189 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: In twenty ten, part of the campus was reopened as 190 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: a seasonal Haunted attraction, which immediately started pulling in as 191 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: much just two million dollars annually from people eager to 192 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: experience the place. But given the Asylum's dark history, many 193 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: locals in those previously affiliated with Penhurst objected to that use, 194 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: especially since the attraction misrepresented much of what happened there 195 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: in the past. Reporter Bill Baldini, whose documentary brought the 196 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: asylum's atrocities to light, and Jim Conroy, the medical sociologist 197 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 1: who spoke publicly about his experiences there, said they believed 198 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: the site shouldn't be trivialized as a haunted house, but 199 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: rather be a memorial to the past. As Diana M. 200 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: Kadovich wrote for the National Council on Public History, the 201 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: first version of the Haunted Asylum was as bad as anticipated. 202 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: A fictional doctor and his minions were shown experimenting on 203 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: asylum inmates in a minor nod to the history of 204 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: Penhurst's patrons. Were able to view artifacts retrieved from the property, 205 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: notably a dentist's chair an electroshock therapy machine. Yet historical 206 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: fact and shock fiction were poorly separated, and visitors were 207 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: left to wonder which was which. The council quoted disability 208 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: studies historian Sarah Hanley Cousins is saying, I like a 209 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: ghost story as much as anyone, but the patients who 210 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: lived at Penhurst weren't spooky spirits. They were human beings 211 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: with complex lives. In twenty seventeen, ownership changed and the 212 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: new owner and general manager created an environment intended to 213 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: be more respectful to the disabled community, As Diana Kadovich wrote, 214 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: aware of the unintended consequences of a conflated story, they 215 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: changed features of the attraction and empowered a group of 216 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: disabled performers with creative control. More than half of the performers, 217 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: called the Haunters, identify as disabled, a few even half 218 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: personal histories of institutionalization. This new Haunted Asylum turns the 219 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: original plot on its head. The Haunters each assume a 220 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: fictional identity, and the inmates conspire to take over the 221 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: asylum from the professionals. The fictional doctors nurses and the 222 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: visitors become the new inmates. Today, Penhurst offers daytime history 223 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: tours and overnight paranormal investigations. While many buildings on the 224 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: campus were deemed unsafe and have been torn down, others 225 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: are maintained through proceeds of those tours. Jim Ansbach, founder 226 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: of the Shore Paranormal Research Society, which regularly investigates Penhurst, 227 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: says the asylum is rife with paranormal activity. Weird New 228 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: Jersey wrote that the group has conducted several large scale 229 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: investigations of the old asylums many buildings, and documented a 230 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,119 Speaker 1: variety of evidence of paranormal activity, including photos, videos, recordings 231 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: of voice phenomena, and personal encounters with spirits. Among the 232 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: recordings are the sounds of disembodied voices uttering things like 233 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: go away, I'll kill you, were upset, and why did 234 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: you come here? An unknown male states I'm scared, while 235 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: an invisible female asks why won't you leave? In the 236 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: Administration building, investigators have said they've picked up disembodied voices 237 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: and the sounds of toilets flushing though there's no running 238 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: water or the building. And other buildings, people claim to 239 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: hear children's voices and EVPs of distressed adults. According to Shore, 240 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: a firefighter police officer Anna Marine All saw a woman 241 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: in an old style nurse's uniform in the Limerick Building. 242 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: Investigators claim to have been touched in the Mayflower Building 243 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: and the Tinycum Building, and to have seen shadow figures 244 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: manifest and dissipate in the Quaker Building. These shadows include 245 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: what appeared to be a girl with long black hair, 246 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: a hunched over presence with long dangling arms, and figures 247 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: poking out from behind obstacles. Doors and a rocking chair 248 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: have moves on their own, and objects like pride bars 249 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: and brass pixtures have been observed being thrown by unseen forces. 250 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: And investigators have also been physically harmed. According to Shore, 251 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: one was shoved from behind hard enough on a stairway 252 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: to leave a deep red mark, and another was scratched 253 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: on the arm. Now I have investigated Penhurst a number 254 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: of times, including once on live television where I proceeded 255 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: to drop an F bomb while millions of people were watching. 256 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: So here to talk more about that experience, as well 257 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: as many others, are two of my dear friends who 258 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: have also both spent quite some time investigating the asylum. 259 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: Mister Aaron Sagers and mister Adam Berry. Welcome my friends. 260 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: Oh no, I didn't turn your microphones on it and 261 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: want them to actually hear you. 262 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us. This is Haunted Row. I'm Amy Brune. 263 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: May the fourth be with you? 264 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: Okay, So real talk. We have investigated Penhurst quite a 265 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: few times. Strangely, we're actually going back there next weekend 266 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 1: or ericon. I'm just gonna be cool. It is one 267 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: of those places I feel like you have to be 268 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: very cognizant of the history, and I think that we've 269 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: gotten so much better at that in recent years. I'm 270 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: sure the first time I investigated there, I was completely 271 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: guilty of just kind of being like, oh, terrible things 272 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: happen here. It's super haunted. How cool. And then I 273 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: actually took the time to watch that documentary it's on 274 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: YouTube and you see what happened there and it is appalling. 275 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: So but so, just talk a little bit more, like Arin, 276 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: you've investigated there many times over the years. What first 277 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: brought you to Penhurst? 278 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 3: I think it was actually for an event the very 279 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 3: first time I went there, but actually many years ago, 280 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 3: I was working as a reporter at some newspapers in 281 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 3: the Philadelphia area. So maybe I went there first for 282 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 3: one of their Haunted House attractions, and even then, honestly, 283 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 3: it didn't sit right with me because this is one 284 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 3: of those locations that, look, it just has it's a 285 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 3: city of shame. It really is a city, and it 286 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 3: has such a dark legacy that it makes you angry 287 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 3: when you go there and you're aware of what took 288 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 3: place there, and the fact that it also was taking 289 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 3: place in my lifetime. I was ten years old when 290 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 3: it closed, so it's this recent history and it's disgusting. 291 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 3: But yeah, the very first time I think I went 292 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 3: there was for the Haunted House, and the first time 293 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 3: I invested get it was part of an event. 294 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: Okay, mister Barry, I went with someone named Amy Bruney. 295 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure if it was one of your Ghost 296 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: Hunters Academy locations. 297 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: I never know, No, Waverley, Actually we're going to Oh yeah, 298 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 2: it was the very first place I ever investigated on television. 299 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: I mean, you and I investigated that on Ghost Hunters, 300 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: and and I remember, you're right, we were in a 301 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: different mindset in a way. We were excited to get 302 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 2: to this incredibly historic haunted location. We were It was 303 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: multiple nights, which is a big deal for when we 304 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 2: investigated something like that. But I think for us, we 305 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 2: were we didn't know what to expect, right, and you 306 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: and I we had we were in Philadelphia, so we 307 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: had just started investigation. This is probably a month into 308 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: us working together, that's true, So we were still sort 309 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: of getting our feet wet on you know, how we 310 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: interact with each other and what experiences we will have. 311 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: But I know that the activity that we had there 312 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 2: flipped our brains in side out because it was it 313 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: was really incredible activity. But at that point, I think 314 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 2: we didn't know what to do with that information. 315 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: I guess, right, I mean I think that I actually 316 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: I think I wrote about one of the experiences we 317 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: had there in the book, which was and this happened 318 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: not on the lot. Was this on the live show? 319 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: When we heard that thing in the closet? 320 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: I don't know that was it? Yeah? That was, yeah, 321 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 2: on the live show. 322 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: So we'll talk about that experience. 323 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 2: Yes, So Amy and I were in the I guess 324 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: it would be the children's section wherever they said the 325 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: heart of hearing would be. And I think when we 326 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 2: started hearing those kind of thoughts where oh the kids were, 327 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: you know, just they had a physical disability where they 328 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 2: couldn't hear or they couldn't see, they were put in 329 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: here to us. I mean that was already like what 330 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: are you talking about? Like there are schools for the 331 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 2: blind and death, Like what are you doing? But we 332 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 2: were in that section, and I remember being on the 333 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 2: third or fourth floor and she and I you know, 334 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 2: were slowly walking through to get our bearings, and we 335 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: started asking questions and then to the left of us, 336 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: down the hallway, you could hear what sounded like a 337 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: footstep and a drag, so it was like step step, 338 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 2: like step dry and she and I looked at each 339 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: other like what the actual is that? And we were 340 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 2: looking down this hallway nothing was there. And then almost 341 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 2: instantaneously after that, we heard what sounded like clawing, like 342 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 2: scratching and clawing on wood. And at this point, I 343 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: think they it's on television, but you can go back 344 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 2: and watch. But she and I are like on top 345 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: of each other, were and like back to back, and 346 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: we're sort of trying to like figure out where the 347 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 2: sound's coming from, what's happening, And we knew that the scratching. 348 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: It was like a scratch, clawing, scratching, like trying something, 349 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 2: trying to get out of something. 350 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: It was so incredibly loud, terrifying. It was so loud. 351 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: I can't over state howbut it was. 352 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: And also your mind starts playing tricks on you because 353 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 2: you hear this step dragon. I picture horror movie. I 354 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: picture like the you know, some person walking down the 355 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 2: thing trying to get us. So we had to make 356 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 2: our way toward the sound, like any good horror movie, 357 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 2: and we pinpointed to this room. We walk into the room. 358 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,239 Speaker 2: The scratching is still going on. It's louder. We know 359 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: it's coming from in front of us, where a closet 360 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,239 Speaker 2: door is closed. 361 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: And we we thought animal. We were like, there's an 362 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: animal there. We were about to have our faces torn 363 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: off by whatever this is. 364 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: But and she was like, you open it. 365 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: That's true. You were new. 366 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: I was new. 367 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: You were new. 368 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 2: And so she is standing maybe five feet away from 369 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: the door, and I'm like creeping up on the handle 370 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 2: like it's gonna pop out, And I take the handle 371 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: and I went and I opened it really quick and 372 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: jump back because I was a know something rabbit is 373 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 2: coming out of there, and that did not happen. There 374 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: was nothing in the closet. There was no signs of rodents, 375 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 2: there was no animal droppings. There did not smell of urine. 376 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 2: It was just a normal closet. There were no holes 377 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 2: in the ceiling. And I think we even used the 378 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 2: thermal imaging. 379 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say we double checked. We brought 380 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: the thermal. The one time I enjoyed the thermal, I 381 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: was like, oh, we can see there's an animal in here. 382 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 2: There was no animal, no traces of animal, no signs 383 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: and animals trying to claw out in any section. And 384 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 2: we never heard it again ever and anywhere else in 385 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: that building. I mean, yes, of course it was stabited. 386 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: It could have been an animal, but we we checked 387 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 2: our boxes for that and it was wild. 388 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that was That was terrifying. And what's so 389 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: funny is that we were like, oh, a few, it's 390 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: a ghost. 391 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, We're like, oh right, oh great. I mean, you know, 392 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: thinking about that experience now, I sort of wonder what 393 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: that was though. Like you talk about, you know, the 394 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: young children in cages and people being trapped and tied up. 395 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 2: It's like, now, when I think about that a sound. 396 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 2: It's no longer spooky, it's sad. 397 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 3: It's heartbreaking. Yeah, someone was confined and that was their reality, 398 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 3: So what would they do? 399 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: It would well, that's just it. It's like if that 400 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: I imagine at some point someone was probably locked in 401 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 1: that closet, like I almost think it had to have happened, 402 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: and so is I pray that that is not like 403 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: their actual consciousness still there trying to leave and instead 404 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: is just kind of like that imprint there, you know 405 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: what I mean. I would prefer it's just the actual 406 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: turmoil or emotion left behind, because I would hate to 407 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: think there's someone just perpetually stuck in this closet. You know. 408 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 3: I don't like to think as I don't like to 409 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 3: think in terms of children or people being stuck in places. 410 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 3: And yet I do wonder in facilities like that where 411 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 3: people were so physically and emotionally broken, like where they 412 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: were broken by other people, if there's something about that 413 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 3: where they are just lingering there in some form or fashion. 414 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: Well, the sad thing to think about is that, you know, 415 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: they were probably told their entire lives that they weren't 416 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: meant for anywhere else, you know, and so there, it's 417 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: so ingrained in them that they were not meant to 418 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: be in society. This is where you are because of 419 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: how you are. And so when given the choice and death, like, 420 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: does that mean they carry that like I'm not meant 421 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: to go anywhere but here. It's kind of like sometimes 422 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: when we investigate jails, I feel like sometimes the inmates 423 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: are like, it's this kind of you know, self imposed sentence, 424 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: like I'm supposed to be here and I can't leave, 425 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: And I would not be surprised if that's what's happening there. 426 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 3: And it's some extent it was official policy too, like 427 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 3: as early when it opened in nineteen oh was it 428 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 3: by nineteen thirteen? There was already official policy about eugenics 429 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 3: on the books in Pinnhurst, and that not only are 430 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 3: you not worth anything, you're not even worth like getting 431 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 3: out and having a family. You need to be separated. 432 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 3: You are dehumanized, oh completely, And when it reaches that 433 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 3: point where you're no longer considered human, it makes it 434 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 3: all the easier to abuse and hurt and break these people. 435 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: Down when you watch that documentary, and so this is 436 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: what I think of when I investigate there. I see 437 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: these spaces and I mean, I haven't watched it in years, 438 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: but is permanently ingrained in my brain. I see the 439 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: faces of these people and I think of them as 440 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: I investigate there. You know, are these the people? Are 441 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: people like this who are talking to me? But it's 442 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: they were so coherent. They were not they were like 443 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: talking to anyone in here. They weren't like it wasn't 444 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: like they couldn't speak. It wasn't like they were emotionless, 445 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: like they were completely able to have a conversation. They 446 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: were calm. It's the weirdest thing. And you're like, why 447 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: are you there? Like it just didn't make a lot 448 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: of sense. 449 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 2: No, And I think the first time I saw the 450 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: documentary was when we went back, maybe even the following 451 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: It was the following year for the live show, and 452 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: we knew we were going back there, and you know, 453 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: we had talked about the documentary and I watched it, 454 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 2: and I think that changed the way we investigated that 455 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,959 Speaker 2: space on live television. Yeah, for sure, because we were 456 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: thinking about it. And if you notice we went back 457 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: to that same spot if you watched that live show, 458 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: and we were using the flashlights for communication, and we 459 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: had set three flashlights on the mantle, which was in 460 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: the room just past where we heard the scratching down 461 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: the hall from where we heard the foot dragging, and 462 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: we would set them up right like straight up, and 463 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 2: you know, live television, anything can happen, and we like 464 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: to do the hardest techniques on live televis because we're like, 465 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: you know, we don't We're going to use it. We 466 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: believe in it. We're going to see what happens and 467 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 2: if it works great on live television. We started having 468 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 2: a conversation with someone in the space who knew we 469 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 2: were there, who was answering our questions yes, no, I 470 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: don't know, on command, on live television in front of 471 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: millions of people watching. And it was because we had 472 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: humanized what was there and we genuinely wanted to have 473 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: a conversation. I actually forgot the cameras in that moment. 474 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 2: I forgot that we were on live television because we 475 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: were making such a connection, right. 476 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: And it's bizarre investigating on live television because first of all, 477 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: you're investigating the entire time, so you're just kind of 478 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: going about your business and then suddenly the camera operators 479 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: like they're coming to you, and there's this twinge where 480 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, okay, now that'd be great, yeah, but 481 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: in that moment like I don't know. So the for 482 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: people who are not familiar, we to quite often use 483 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: this technique with flashlights, where we would line up three 484 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: flashlights in a row. The only reason we've stopped using 485 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: this technique is since Maglight introduced their new like led lights, 486 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: it just doesn't work the same anymore, and slowly but surely, 487 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: every single one of our old maglights has burned out. 488 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: If you want to help us with that maglight if 489 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: you're listening. 490 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: But this episode is sponsored by Backlight bag Light. 491 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: But so what we did is we used this flashlight 492 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: technique where we would set the flashlights to where they were. 493 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: It was very easy to turn them on and off 494 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: because you twist it so uh and people would use 495 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: one flashlight a lot, but we didn't really feel like 496 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: that was a very controlled situation. So we would use 497 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: three flashlights and we would first establish they actually wanted 498 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: to interact using the flashlights, and then when we were 499 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: it was clear that they could answer us, we would 500 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: have them pick which flashlight wanted to be yes, which 501 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: wanted to be no, which was like I don't know, 502 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: and this is happening on live television, and it was 503 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: like clockwork, like we were having this entire conversation through 504 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: these lights. I think we were on screen for like 505 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: a solid twenty to thirty minutes doing this, which is 506 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: like unheard of in these live shows. But it just 507 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't stop. And whoever was there was able to talk 508 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: through the lights, recognize the lights. Who like, that's a 509 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: universal signal, right, everybody can speak through lights, and they 510 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: wanted to talk. They were eager to talk. 511 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember when it was done. I think the 512 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: camera operator was not only was his shoulder killing him 513 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: at that point, but he also did not understand what 514 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 2: was happening. He was like, what was that? Because I 515 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 2: think the crew for the live show wasn't our normal crew. 516 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 2: It was because they were all Union. 517 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were all like they were used to shooting 518 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: like football games I have TV, and they did not 519 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: know what they had signed up for. 520 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: This guy's the eyes were big than in his head 521 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: and he was just like, what was that? How did 522 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: you guys do that? And we were like, we didn't 523 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: do anything. All we did was ask questions. Yeah, girl, 524 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: we did some crazy stuff on that day, Yeah, we did. 525 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: Like I said earlier, that was my first F bomb 526 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: on live television. Can you say an F bomb on 527 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: live TV? You hear the IFBs of every camera operator, 528 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: So we screaming in the control booths and yeah, yeah. 529 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: There was another time. I can't remember if we were 530 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 2: investigating in a different section, but we had walked through 531 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 2: and they kept saying that the windows had giant like 532 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 2: screens on them, heavy screens, and so sometimes they would 533 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 2: you'd hear them like knock or bang, and we were 534 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: just walking through, investigating and calling out just to see 535 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 2: if it was there, and it was like show, like 536 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: the loudest sound I had ever heard, and we tried 537 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 2: to figure out what it was, couldn't figure it out. 538 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: Not an animal. It was like somebody had taken it 539 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: and slammed it, and we knew we weren't welcome in 540 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 2: that moment. We were like, we're not welcome. 541 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 3: It's a location that I think every time I've been there, 542 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 3: it's again a sad and terrible location, but it from 543 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 3: a paranormal activity perspective, it seems like it always delivers 544 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 3: in different ways. There was one time actually I was 545 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 3: there with a paranormal event, and it was a group 546 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 3: of people in one area. I forget all of the 547 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 3: building names. I think they call it dietary. It's like 548 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 3: in the back of the grounds and the session was 549 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 3: coming to a close and people are doing an investigation 550 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 3: and somebody walked by me, and then standing next to 551 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 3: me was two of the volunteers that assist with the investigation. 552 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 3: Someone walks by me and they walk into another room, 553 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 3: and this is sort of the free time of the investigation. 554 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 3: Time winds down, It's like, okay, time to wrap it up, 555 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 3: move everybody to the next location. And I'm like, oh, 556 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 3: let me go grab the person that moved into that 557 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 3: next room over there, and the volunteers like, yes, someone 558 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 3: walked in there. Walk into this room, no one's in there, 559 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 3: walk into this adjacent room and there is no other exit, 560 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 3: and myself and the volunteer, like I know, we both 561 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 3: physically saw someone walk in here. And instead against this 562 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 3: pack wall was a very like distinct shadow, kind of 563 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 3: like hunched against the wall, and it reminded me in 564 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 3: that moment of the final scene of the Blair Witch Projects, 565 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 3: which I want to tell you all that I'm mister 566 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 3: Brave at every moment but that was a moment where 567 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 3: I was Nope, the f out of there. 568 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 2: I was like, no, yep, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. 569 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 2: Isn't that? Isn't that where when we were doing somebody 570 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 2: was doing the walkthrough before wherever we got there for 571 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: the live show, and they saw a gentleman that looked 572 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 2: like a worker. 573 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: Oh that's right, was it Chris Williams? Did she see it? 574 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: It might be because she. 575 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 2: Was like, I saw there's a man standing there, like 576 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 2: getting ready. It was like a worker. And they were like, 577 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: nobody else is back there, And she came over talking 578 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: about like, oh, yeah, there's a guy back there or 579 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 2: something and there, and the guy was like, no, there's 580 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 2: nobody back there. 581 00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it does not surprise me. 582 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 3: There was another time I was actually filming. It was 583 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 3: right before all the COVID lockdown and I was filming this. 584 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 3: It was a about haunted houses, but it wasn't a 585 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 3: paranormal show. It was about haunted house attractions. And after 586 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 3: a very long night of filming, everybody is very tired, 587 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 3: winding down, waiting to get cut for the night. Because 588 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 3: it's removed from any nearby hotels, it's definitely. 589 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 2: Like a cab ride. 590 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 3: And I'm standing outside facing the admin building. No one 591 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 3: is in this building, and I'm standing next to the 592 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 3: like a sound guy or whatever, and we're just chatting like, yeah, 593 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 3: long night, like where you're gonna go. You're gonna grab 594 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 3: some dinner at the local pub or whatever afterwards. And 595 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 3: we're facing the admin building and you see this lone 596 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 3: wheelchair just cross past the threshold. Nope, And I'm like, 597 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,439 Speaker 3: like you you you saw this, right, Yep, yep, yep. 598 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 2: Should we go in? 599 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: No? 600 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, And for that reason, I'm out. So that is 601 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 2: a wild, well, something that a lot of people just 602 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 2: don't know. So you and I got to explore Penhurst 603 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 2: during the day. 604 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: That's right. Oh, that's right. We did a photo shoot there. 605 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: We dressed in really fancy clothes and took pictures in Penhurst. Yeah, 606 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: so as one does. Yes, you know, were a magazine. 607 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Actually it's on the back of one of 608 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,879 Speaker 2: our magazines. It's the double duo image where it looks 609 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 2: like we're kind of floating. That's Penhurst. And I remember 610 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 2: being there during the day and of course things in 611 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 2: the daytime when light, when sunlight hits it, you know, 612 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 2: you see it in a different way. And I remember 613 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 2: we got to actually take the time and really stand 614 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 2: in a spot without cameras and like look, and at 615 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 2: times it felt really creepy and intense, and then at 616 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 2: times there was this weird, like destroyed, destructed beauty about it. 617 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 2: But then you could see what kind of life it had, 618 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 2: Like the beds were there, all lined up still, like 619 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 2: people had been in these little sections and cobby holes, 620 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 2: and you just knew what kind of like you know, 621 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 2: little town or life this place had exactly. 622 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: And I think that's important, and that's kind of I 623 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: think one of the greatest byproducts of what we do 624 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: and what you all do, is that we are kind 625 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: of realizing that history. You know, we're not pushing it aside, 626 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: we're not forgetting it existed. I love the new kind 627 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: of outlook as we investigate these places that were uber 628 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: respectful of what happened there. You know, we're not going in, 629 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, antagonizing. We go in with deep respect and sympathy. 630 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: And I think that really not only helps us as 631 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: far as kind of gaining interaction, but I think it 632 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: helps them. They You know, you walk in as a 633 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: living person and you're showing them respect they might not 634 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 1: have ever had in life to begin with. So I 635 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: think it's important that these places are explored. I think 636 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: it's important that we learned the history that happened there 637 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: before we ever got there. And I think that you know, 638 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: regardless of how anyone feels about the paranormal field, there 639 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,720 Speaker 1: are places like this that are being remembered because of us, 640 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: and so we have great responsibility. And that includes where 641 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,240 Speaker 1: we're going tonight as well, since we're going to Waverly Hills. 642 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: So I want to thank my friends here for joining 643 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: me today, and I want to thank all of you 644 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,959 Speaker 1: for this, and I hope you enjoyed it very much. 645 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: I'm Amy Bruney and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road 646 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: is hosted and written by me Amy brune with additional 647 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 1: research by Taylor Hagerdorn and Cassandra day All. This show 648 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: is edited and produced by Rima El Kali, with supervising 649 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: producer Josh Thain and executive producers Aaron Menke, Alex Williams, 650 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick. Haunted Road is a production of iHeartRadio 651 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaronmanke. Learn more about this 652 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: show over at grimanmild dot com, and for more podcasts 653 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 654 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.