1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, 4 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 5 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: name is Noel. They call me Ben. You or you 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: or at least a close approximation there of This is 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. You've heard of 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: spell books before, probably right. If this is a surprise 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: to you, then buckle your seatbelt because this is going 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: to be probably one of your favorite episodes of our show. 11 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: So several of us are fans of horror movies. If 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: you are a fan of this show, you probably have 13 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: a higher statistical likelihood of enjoying horror movies. I'm a 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: big fan of them. Uh. And if you enjoy horror movies, 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: then you're also familiar with that old trope, the cursed book. Right, 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 1: what's the most famous example of the cursed book? Well, 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: the one that comes to mind for me is HP 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: loves Crafts Necronomicon, which is that ancient cursed book, which 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: is Yeah, it's a tone. It's clearly a work of 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: fiction because it is written by HP Lovecraft, but numerous 21 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: people have attempted to create a real necronomicon. Right, this 22 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: this tome of dark Eldridge magic. According to Lovecraft and 23 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: the Cadulu Mythos, it was composed by a and I'm 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: quoting here a half crazed Arab named Abdul al Hazred. 25 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: We should note at this point that, amongst many other things, 26 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: Lovecraft was cartoonishly racist. We've covered this, people, right, We've 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: We've covered this. And what's interesting is Lovecraft himself maintained 28 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: the book was entirely fictitious. And what we found this 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: will tie into some stuff later in the show, is 30 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: that despite the fact that whenever he was asked about 31 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: it by friends, family, or journalists, right, and despite the 32 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: fact that you would always say this is fictional, not 33 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: only did I make it up, but I didn't make 34 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: up all of it. I just made up some excerpts 35 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: for my short stories. Despite that, it got to a 36 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: point of popularity where more and more people became fans 37 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: of his cosmic horror genre and then started writing their 38 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: own necronomicons. As Matt said, and this takes a path 39 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: from fiction to fandom to reality take place in more 40 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: recent things like slender Man started out as pure fiction, 41 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: purely knowledge fiction that gained such notoriety that ultimately it 42 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: had real world consequence. Well, the Necronomicon has that same 43 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: effect where it's like introduced and then reused and sort 44 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: of like adjusted and adapted to different times, different personalities, 45 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: and it almost takes on a life of its own, 46 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: like slender Man, where even though the origin creator was like, yeah, 47 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: this is definitely fake, the more you start to see 48 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: it in different incarnations, the more than mine tends to 49 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: go to well, maybe it's not fake, you know, right, Yeah, 50 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: And that's the moral of the Necronomicon story in a way, 51 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: is just because something isn't real to take your air 52 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: quote move, doesn't mean that it is not dangerous. On 53 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: a lighter note, there are many other spell books in fiction, 54 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: of course, will will all recall, since we all have 55 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: impeccable taste. In films, Disney's focus focus don come to money. Yes, 56 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: and let's not forget the more malevolent yet equally hilarious 57 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: Necronomicon ex Mortis from the Evil Dead films, Everything's Full 58 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: or even that that creepy book with the face from 59 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: the care Bears movie. Yeah, anyone too late, too late, 60 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: alas spell is task No really no, I I can't 61 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: even handle that one. Well that yeah, all I was 62 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: about to say, you have thought you were saying you 63 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: were not familiar, because that is the stuff of nightmares, 64 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: my friends. Its possesses this little kid who's like the 65 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: magician's assistant, makes him do things, and the care bears 66 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: have to come down and do their stare, care bears, stare. 67 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: I get too far off, but that it is an 68 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: economicon of sorts, a grimoire of sorts, because if in 69 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: the way it's depicted in the film, it is a big, 70 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: thick tone that he finds in a long forgotten, dusty 71 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: magician's chest, and it's got all of these kind of 72 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: esoteric scrawls and different symbols all through it, and it, 73 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: you know, spawns this weird, green, bald, kind of androgynous 74 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: face that you know makes him do things straight up. 75 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: So a demon and what that you know? That reminds me. 76 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: This is a separate talk about censorship, which ties in 77 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: later to the car tubes of Yesteryear. I think we're 78 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: a little better because they were less sanitized, you know 79 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: what I mean. A demonic possession film marketed towards children, 80 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: where the main heroes are fuzzy teddy bears with different 81 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: on the tommies that can shoot out rainbow magic energy, 82 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: completely completely new. What did it even do? By the way, 83 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: what did the stair do? Did it just fill you 84 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: with goodness? It was like it was like The Heart 85 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: Ring and Captain Planet except bears. Yeah, it was. It 86 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: was overwhelming love and compassion. Yeah, it was a very 87 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: It was a very aggressive form of non violence because 88 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: they were shooting people technically. Now, just not to say 89 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: that a grimoire is inherently evil. Yeah. You know. Additionally, 90 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: when we talk about just the fictional stuff, we also 91 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: have another side, which would be that there are a 92 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: lot of out and out hoaxes and someone wrote something 93 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: and pretended they discovered some ancient source of knowledge hidden 94 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: or occulted from the public eye. Sorry, it would not 95 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: say that in such a dumb voice. Regular occulted? Was 96 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: that an editor? Was that? You know? That was just 97 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: me not wanting to sound so mpr about it. Enough. 98 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: Now I've got a question for you. Would you consider 99 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: we've talked about the Voytage manuscript, and I know that's 100 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: gonna come up later in the episode. But since we 101 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: don't really know, does something to be considered a hoax 102 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: have to have a hoaxer, do you have to know 103 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: who did it in order for it to be considered 104 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: a hoax? No, for something that's an excellent question. For 105 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: something to be considered a hoax, there must be something 106 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: about it that is marketed or propagated that is untrue. 107 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: So if you and timously wrote something and three hundred 108 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: years later Matt's descendants find it and they just don't 109 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: know you wrote it, it doesn't make it a hoax. 110 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: Like well, with the Voneage manuscript, they can't read it. 111 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: But if you wrote something that actually happened, like three 112 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: years ago, this happened, we don't know who you are, 113 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't make it a hoax. If Matt wrote something 114 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: and then waited in some master plan to give it 115 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: to us and say, hey, I found this in a 116 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: grave and it's four hundred years old, that would definitely 117 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: be a hoax. But we're also sort of in the 118 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: realm of like you know, if I write a spell 119 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: and tell you this is a legit spell and you 120 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: can't do it, you can't recreate what I'm telling you, 121 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 1: it should be able to do. Is that a hoax 122 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: or you just done any good at doing magic? That's 123 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: a great question. We raised that in one of our 124 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: earlier episodes on the Occult too, because there's a there's 125 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: a fuzzy line here with a hoax for people who 126 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: don't believe in magic. Any book of magic written is 127 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: essentially disingenuous, right, But there are quite a few people, 128 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,679 Speaker 1: maybe not as often now, but in in the span 129 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: of human history who believed that they were simply the 130 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: instrument from so for some supernatural or otherworldly being that 131 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: was writing through them. Is it a hoax when the 132 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: creators absolutely believe in it? You know, that's that's almost 133 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: a matter of perspective. But even let's go on further, 134 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: are there any real grim wise, meaning, are there any 135 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: books of magic created by people who genuinely believed they 136 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: were creating how to manual on, you know, the so 137 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: called occulted arts. Shall we have some facts then? Yes, 138 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: there are numerous examples of historical spell books. Today. These 139 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: are popularly known as what this episode is about grim 140 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: wars in the West. But you know, what we're gonna 141 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: explore here is primarily stuff that's occurring in the Western world. Um, 142 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: it's it's crucial to note though that these things exist 143 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: throughout the globe, throughout the planet. Uh in the east 144 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: and the north and the south, all of the cardinal directions. 145 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: You will find these. However, we would have to make 146 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: up our whole like a whole different show to cover 147 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: all of them, right, It wouldn't be just one episode 148 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: to cover all the cultures across the globe that have 149 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: their own very traditions and rituals and incantations that other 150 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: people might call magic. And these people might just call, 151 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: you know, their day to day life a Tuesday A Tuesday. Yeah, perfect. 152 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, like you said, now we're sticking with Western 153 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: spell books. Grimmis first question, what's what's with the name? 154 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: That's not a name you hear every day. Scholars are 155 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: not completely sure about the etymology of this word, but 156 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: the most popular belief is that the term grim wi 157 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: comes from Latin via Old French grammaire, which originally just 158 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: described this This is kind of funny. It originally just 159 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: described any book written in Latin. There you go. Do 160 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: you think is there any connection to the word grammar, 161 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: perhaps like a collect language. There must be, Yeah, there 162 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: must be with the root and back in the day 163 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: something as mundane as a how to manual on you know, 164 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: avoiding the Play by Lord Noel Brown, or uh well, 165 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: Digging for Dummies by Duke Matt van Frederick trademark trademark, 166 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: it would also be a grim wis back then. And 167 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: then eventually in France people started just using the term 168 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: grimoire to mean pretty much any book that was difficult 169 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: to understand, anything there was a pain in the key 170 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: star to read. And then the big shift to where 171 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: this goes from just being a word for difficult book too. 172 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: This book has magic powers came in the nineteenth century 173 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: in uh in Britain. In England the publication of a 174 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: book called The Major's in eighteen o one. The British 175 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: had a old profound interest in all occult matters at 176 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: the time. You know, this is the age when people 177 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: are getting into the concept of using scientific principles to 178 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: investigate things that have once been thought to be purely 179 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: the realm of spirituality and magic. So they're interested in this, 180 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: and through this book the term grim wab became firmly 181 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: cemented in English as a word that meant specifically books 182 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: of magic in general. And since that point, of course, 183 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: we talked about the hoaxes and emerged, and a lot 184 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: of them ballooned after this book came out. Typically stories 185 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: take the same strokes, uh, contemporary writer. Uh, Let's say, 186 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: let's see, since this is an example of a of 187 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: a bad person and I kind of picked on you 188 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: guys by giving you cool books earlier. Uh, let's say 189 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: some uh slightly disingenuous person will we'll we'll call him 190 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: uh at Admiral Boland or whatever. Uh makes up a 191 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: pseudonym like Antonio Ventiana de la Rabina, who is the 192 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: supposed author of the Grand Grimoire, also known as the 193 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: Red Dragon. So this, this charlatan of an admiral, then 194 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: implies that this text is ancient and it's handed down 195 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: in secret for centuries millennia, or if we want to 196 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: get super weird with it, a secret pre existing civilization 197 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: that rose and fell before the biblical flood. And then 198 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: there's a bullet point here on the on our notes. 199 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: That's just four question marks. So that's where we're at. Yeah, 200 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: and the next step after that is profit, notoriety at cetera. Oh. Also, 201 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: by the way, I never get to use this word 202 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: the word for things that existed before the Biblical flood, 203 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: pre lapsarian. I know it's not the sexiest word, but 204 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, it never comes up. So obviously, this proliferation 205 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: of these fraudulent texts has given the whole enterprise of 206 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: occult books a bad rap. But we also have to 207 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: remember there's a context in which so many of these 208 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: texts were made. Yeah, not only were books in general 209 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: much much rarer and more expensive, they were a commodity. 210 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you had to be, you know, a bit 211 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: of a fancy pants to afford to have books, and 212 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: to have access to good quality books and books of 213 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: high academic rigor heck to read. Of course, of course 214 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: I'm putting the cart before the horse there. But yeah, 215 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: but I mean, but research as we understand it today 216 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: was in its infancy or pretty much did not exist. 217 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: You did not have the resources to research in the 218 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: way that we just have an embarrassment of riches via 219 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: the internet. You know, there's that in Carta Encyclopedia crom 220 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: You know those are great, um kidding, but it were 221 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: great a change. It was a game changer. But when 222 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: you look at it now, it feels the way you 223 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: know it must have felt to go from having a 224 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: book to having a library. You know, that's a that's 225 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: a good point. There was also this implicit degree of 226 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: trust between authors and readers, right like, after all, if 227 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: we're living in the thirteen hundreds and we're some of 228 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: the people who see a book that happens not to 229 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: be religious texts like the Bible, then holy smokes, of 230 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: course it's got to be true. Why would somebody spend 231 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: years handwriting this thing if it was just for fun? 232 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: Why would somebody do an elaborate troll like that? Well, 233 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: and I guess that's a big part of why. When 234 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: like things like pamphlets and tracts became widely distributed, that 235 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: was a great way to misinform the populace because you 236 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: could those were cheap to make. You could very easily 237 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: kind of fit some propaganda in there and have it 238 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: circulate and have that same mentality of oh, it's printed 239 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: on paper, therefore it must be the truth. Can you 240 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: imagine how those guys would have felt, those ladies and 241 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: gentlemen if they saw Facebook post let's tabletize a million. 242 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: So this means that, of course, while Grandmoise get a 243 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: hard time, books of magic were not the only inaccurate 244 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: things out there by any means um. But we do 245 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: know that before the British called spell books grim wise, 246 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: before the French read Latin, before even the age of 247 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire, magic in some form existed around the 248 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: world or magical practices. Earliest precursors the books of magic 249 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: are these incantations found on clay tablets and Mesopotamia. And 250 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: that's the earliest we found so far. What would you 251 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: guys mind if we paused for a quick break before 252 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: we got into the details of that. Sounds good, cool, 253 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: and we're back. We're back in sixteen, but we're talking 254 00:15:51,240 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: about ancient Mesopotamia. Let's what it is. Yeah, where is 255 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: your flying car? To a suitcase? But the suitcase also flies? 256 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: We should have thought about all right, I got the 257 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: year wrong. It is, but back before it was even sixteen, 258 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: like way before the Greeks believed. The first people to 259 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: compile books of magic were in the Persian culture, where 260 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: a Persian tribe known as wait for it, the Magi. Yeah, 261 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: it's basically like magic without the sea. Hey, that is 262 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: a cool That is a cool word in term. I 263 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: don't for some reason, I love that I've actually heard 264 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: it pronounced magi and quite like there's a story of 265 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: the Gift of the Magi. I've I've heard that, I've 266 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: heard it pronounced that way. Oh, I thought, well, I know, 267 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: I think it's I think both are acceptable. Listeners, call 268 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: me out tell me. And there was some translation stuff too, 269 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: because in earlier text it used to be spelled m 270 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: A j I you know. So yeah, uh, folks, we're 271 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: talking about the same ones, the famous Wise Men of 272 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: the East, perhaps best known today in our neck of 273 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: the woods for their cameo during Christ's birth and the 274 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: Christian Bible. UM. I grew up in u classical music family, 275 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: and UM one of the sort of operas, kind of 276 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: an operetta I suppose that my mother was quite fond of. Was. 277 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: It's called a Mall and the Night Visitors, and it's 278 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: about you know what. My dad played them all for 279 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: a long term. It's it's a thing churches do it 280 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: all the time. But the Wise Men are really central 281 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: characters in it because they hang out a lot, and 282 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: they all have their own personalities, and one of them 283 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: has this box that he carries around that's full of 284 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: all these amazing little trinkets and and like one of 285 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: them are like a bunch of them, are these precious 286 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: stones that he considers magical and he describes them and 287 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: it's like moonstone will make you sleep, and like lapus 288 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: s lazuli and like all these different ones that have 289 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: these different properties that are all clearly charms. Yeah, but he, 290 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: you know, ascribed very specific effects to these stones just 291 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: by placing them near you and them all. The main 292 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: character is a boy who can't walk and has to 293 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: use a crutch, and the wise Man is trying, you know, 294 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: attempts to even cure him or implies that he could 295 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: cure him using some of these these trinkets as just 296 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: saying it's charms. Yeah, And that's that is because originally, 297 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: before we see the rise of the book, we're still 298 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 1: like talking about before the age of the book, these 299 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: spells would be inscribed on amulets and things like that. 300 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: So the Greeks believed that the first magician magi to 301 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: compile the cult works into a single large text or 302 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: collection was a Persian associate of King Xerxes, remember from 303 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: three hundred Okay, yeah, I think that's not entirely in 304 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: accurate film, Uh, but there was a magician the story goes, 305 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: named Austen's, and during xerxes failed war with Greece around 306 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: Fo b c E. This magician allegedly scattered the seeds 307 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: of what would become much of the world's modern in 308 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: the time of the Greek's understanding magical thinking. Also, the 309 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: in this story the magi learned their arts. They are 310 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:31,959 Speaker 1: called arts from Zaraster, So this is a tie in 311 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: with the earlier religion of Zarastrianism. I was gonna say, yeah, 312 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: so I've heard that mentioned in several places on the net, 313 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: that those guys were on the net. On the net, 314 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: you're on the net. That's nothing but a bunch of pamphlets. 315 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: That's my favorite Sandra Bullock film. You know, I rewatched 316 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: Speed and it doesn't hold up. Uh So today, as 317 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 1: we said, they're they're thought to be. Grimoire is like 318 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: an umbrella term for different types of magical knowledge, and 319 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: it can include everything from you know, how to create 320 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 1: charms allah the magi, how to perform spells, practice divination, 321 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: which is a big one, summon supernatural entities, angels, spirits, demons, domino. 322 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: We actually have a grimoire that we have to use 323 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: every single time we podcast with Ben because he does 324 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, we have to you know, summon him. He 325 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: has to materialize from his interdimensional what do you call it? 326 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: Lairg uh. Just so you guys know, in three separate 327 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: grimoire I found spells to ward against cattle witching and 328 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: uh diabolical mischief, and cattle had a word against it. 329 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: It's pretty it was a big problem. He's a big problem. Oh, 330 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: we want to thank everybody who wrote listener mail to 331 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: us about that. What occurred to me, like, how come 332 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: supernatural entities and extraterrestrial entities alike can't quit messing with 333 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: the damn cattle. Well, that's a great question. Snatching babies, 334 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: stealing cattle. And there's there's a there's a troubling and 335 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: compelling argument about how closely older descriptions of the fay 336 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: or fairy folk can jibe like almost a one on 337 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: one correlation with stories about UFOs. But you know what, man, 338 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: maybe it's maybe it's like you know, how you follow 339 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: the money and in politics, maybe we follow the cattle 340 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: and do uf ufo. I'm just really fast. I want 341 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: to say how how important the cattle were. Two people's 342 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: of the times when a lot of this were absolutely 343 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: and so if anything is going wrong, if you're not 344 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: getting milk correctly, or if there's blood in the milk, 345 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: or you know, whatever small ailment the cow has, that's 346 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: going to be the biggest problem that your whole you 347 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: know group is experiencing at that time. Sure, yeah, I 348 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: mean it's easy for some people who don't who have 349 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: not lived in an agricultural environment to you know, we 350 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: can we can poke fun at this, and it's all 351 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: it's all a good nature. But it's sort of the 352 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: idea of let's say, if your family owns cattle, right, 353 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: they're probably pretty well to do in many ways, but 354 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: think of it like your your father or your mother 355 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: would then be the same thing as like they own 356 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: a small car lot. Every single one of those is 357 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: super important. And if something goes wrong, then it's food 358 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: out of your mouth. Yeah exactly, except in this case 359 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: instead of cars, you're literally drinking and like consuming yeah, 360 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: the byproduct. So yeah, I gotta live. And and so 361 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: these books were like compendiums, almanacs, reference works of all 362 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: this other stuff that existed oral traditions. Sometimes the books 363 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: themselves were believed to be imbued with magic powers, not 364 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: just the stuff you would read or do from the 365 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: manuals or the grim but the physical object. And there's 366 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 1: a special note here that I think is important. We're 367 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: lucky to have listeners of all spiritual stripes or no 368 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: spiritual stripes on this show. And like that Preacher character 369 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: and Poultergeist said, all they're welcome, All they're welcome place 370 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: your heart, Yes, your heart exactly. And then he said, oh, 371 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: oh that's a good film. But so you might be 372 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: hearing this talk of magical books, either on this episode 373 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: or another episode, and wonder, you know, hey, how do 374 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: spiritual reference works fit into you know, holy text and stuff? 375 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: Why I was wondering that Ben great, Well, no time, 376 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: like the president, technically these would not be considered grimoise. 377 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: In fact, many people would consider the correlation to be offensive. 378 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: Right Uh, in the current day, they're definitely not consider that. 379 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: But many do contain either x flurations of the occult 380 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 1: or mentions of the occult. You know, there are characters 381 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: that are fortune tellers, soothsayers, uh practices of witchcraft, and 382 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 1: some of some of these books were often believed to 383 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: have physical magical properties themselves. Just the text on the 384 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: page imbued it with some sort of power, and this 385 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: belief exists in a more subdued form today. This is why, 386 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: for example, you can hear religious excerpts being read during 387 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: exorcisms in Catholicism, and and that's just one example. You 388 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: can check out our exorcism episode from more Info. And 389 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: despite all of these hoaxes that we've talked about, we 390 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: do know that there are a couple let's call them 391 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: true with quotes Grimoires. In his book Grimoires History of 392 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: Magical Books, author Owen Davies names several. So we're gonna 393 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: go through a couple of these. Yeah, that's from all 394 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: across this sectrum of religions as well, Jewish, Christian, Islamic traditions, 395 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: all of them. Yeah, well yes, and all of these 396 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: were they were influenced by this Babylonian myth that is ancient, 397 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: super ancient, and the origin of these magic books were 398 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: dated to the age before the Great Flood. Has been 399 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: said lapse arian. Okay, it's not that bad of a word, 400 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: as long as you think of pro lapse. I was 401 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: gonna say, as so long as it's not prolapse, Oh man, 402 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm a pro lapse arian. I just lost this word. Now, 403 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: I guess it's better that I get. It just explains 404 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: why everybody it pro laps is a scientific word that 405 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: want to say it? I did. It's yes, well, my 406 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: misunderstanding of before the flood, which is pre lapse arian 407 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: is still a great word, you guys. Uh. The idea 408 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: here is that the ancient roots of what would become 409 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: magic in the West, which would be Babylonian, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, 410 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: interacting with Grecian mythology, this stuff becomes sort of a 411 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: primordial ooze, you know, a soil from which these other 412 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: things grow. And while some Hebrew and Smaritan text described 413 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: writings to the first man Adam in late Antiquity, in 414 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: the medieval period Enoch, who in Arabic was known as Idris, 415 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: was more generally believed to be the inventor of books overall. Yeah, 416 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: so we're so far back in time now that we're 417 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: looking at uh spiritual and religious traditions as well as 418 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: stuff histories tells us. But this right now is purely 419 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: the stories from these belief system So in the tradition, 420 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: Enoch is the is the creator essentially the first book. 421 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: But also the first magic, the first book is essentially magic. 422 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: Another tradition relates there's another worldly author, how the angel 423 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: Raziel communicated to Noah a secret book containing the art 424 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: of astrology, which was then written on a sapphire like 425 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: we were talking like writing on emeralds and precious jewels 426 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: that Noah kept in a golden chest they brought with 427 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: him on the arc. Subsequently, this was inherited by his 428 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: son Shim and a surviving there's a surviving tract on 429 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: astrology called the Treatise of Shim that dates back to 430 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: the late first century BC. This means that these are 431 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: two early contenders for what could be considered a kind 432 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: of grim wis. The purported Books of Enoch contained astronomical, 433 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: astrological and angelic lore, and we know that versions of 434 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: these were circulating during the time of Jesus Christ, so 435 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: in another medieval account. And again these are all medieval accounts, 436 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: so this is still that that period of time where 437 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: people were just believing almost anything they read as long 438 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: as it did not directly contradict their religious beliefs. So, 439 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: without getting too deep into biblical chronology, the argument here 440 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: would be the earliest works on the occult sciences where 441 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: those studied by Enoch. But the first Book of Conjuration 442 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: and Magic is associated with Noah and his son's shim 443 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: and Ham, and in many ways this views into conjecture. 444 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: Of course, often that's sadly par for the course. In 445 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: some degree weren't dealing with ancient history. But there's another 446 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: one that's a little bit further, a little bit closer 447 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: to us in time, whatever year we're in. I can't 448 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: believe I forgot that it was someone should at least 449 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: I was really close. That's one of my New Years 450 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: relations is to call people out more this year. Oh 451 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: that's so sweet, like like the fascinating m yep. I 452 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: remember that. I certainly remember. I invite the same gentlemen 453 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: and listeners. I am no gentleman, though Ohn Davy cites 454 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: the I didn't mean that to come up so ominous. 455 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: Uh Oh, And Davies cites another one, the Key of Solomon, 456 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,479 Speaker 1: which you may have heard of if you have an 457 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: interest in grim Wa pops up in fiction all the 458 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: time too. I think it even pops up in video 459 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: games now. And I can't recall which one. Uh, you 460 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: guys probably know better than I would. Uh. Clavicula Solomon 461 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: as is the is the official name Keith Solomon, sort 462 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: of the anglified street name. It was the earliest known 463 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: written versions. There are multiple versions of a lot of 464 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: these kind of books dates back to the fifteenth century, 465 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: somewhere in the fourteen hundreds, written in Greek. Davies has 466 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: a great quote for us about this. There is no 467 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: definitive version of the Clavicule, but along with conjurations to 468 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: command and control the angels of darkness, manuscripts usually contained 469 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: rituals and symbols for personal rather than spiritual well being, 470 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: such as to provoke love, punish enemies, become invisible, and 471 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: deal with thieves, and also unlock any door. I found 472 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: that to be interesting. That's pretty cool, And I like 473 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: that deal with thieves. You find these all to be 474 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: really practical, timely kind of things. You know, they're like 475 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: life pro tips exactly. Yeah, there's there's nothing. There's nothing 476 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: there in that list that's super super abstract. You know, 477 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: abstraction would be more like the great work of alchemy. 478 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: So there's nothing about summoning the eld Rich horrors that 479 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: will then turn your mind to jelly. You know, that's 480 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: that should be a thing. There are remedies for gout 481 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: that I'm looking at right here exactly. It's a big 482 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: problem I have. I have one that I actually found 483 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: in a work that we'll talk about in a little bit. 484 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: But would you like to hear a spell, gentleman? Let Okay, 485 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: So this one is as described in the passage we 486 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: read a second ago. It's got these little symbols um 487 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: that I'm not it's not quite clear what their origins are, 488 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: but they kind of look almost like Hebrew a little bit. 489 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: They're kind of like, what do you think, Ben, what 490 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: do these? Did those jump out as some older Arabic 491 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: older Arabic? That's yeah, they're definitely. They're kind of a 492 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: cursive e very fluid um stroke where the characters are 493 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: connected together. They're not like very definitive individual characters. They're 494 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: sort of like a big flowy central line and then 495 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: different um sort of filigreed little bits along the path. 496 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: But here's one to know of treasure hidden in the earth. 497 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: And this comes from a book called The Discovery of Witchcraft, 498 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: which was written by a man named Reginald Scott who 499 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: was from Kent in England and was was a gentleman, 500 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: and it was published in four We'll go into this 501 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: work a little bit more, but it's a perfect place 502 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: to hear a spell. This one to know of treasure 503 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: hidden in the earth on a piece of paper, right 504 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: the following characters on a Saturday in the hour of 505 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: the rising moon, and lay it where you think treasure 506 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: might be hidden. If there's treasure on that spot, the 507 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: paper will burn and then it gives the characters. And 508 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: just to give proper credit, this comes from a blog 509 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: post by a gentleman named Jason Mankie who has a 510 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: book called The Witches Book of Shadows that you can 511 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: seek out um which sort of talks about different historical 512 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: grim wars, including the Key of Solomon and some others 513 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: that will discuss, including this one. But yeah, all very 514 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: seemingly practical, like I I want some treasure, I want 515 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: to know, you know, it's sort of a pre a 516 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: pre metal detector, you know. Yeah, that's a great point. 517 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: And so these were practical things. And this means that 518 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: the first collection of spells probably dates back into antiquity, 519 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: probably just didn't happen to be in a book form 520 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: yet before the Rise of the book. But the spell 521 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: like Noel just read very very practical instructions and in 522 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: that age, right, and so of course you want to 523 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: accumulate all of those and happen in one place. And 524 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: the concept of magic itself predates writing because it goes 525 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: back to oral tradition and stuff. So another big question 526 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: is if these sorts of things have been around since 527 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: the dawn of recorded history, why aren't there more examples. 528 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: One of the answers to that question is also surprisingly 529 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: pragmatic and practical and grounded in the real world censorship. Yet, 530 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: by the early years of Christianity, magic scrolls and books 531 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: were in wide circulation. But to the Church, magic fundamentally 532 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: smacked of paganism, a competitor every no matter whether someone 533 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: professed to be a Christian, if they were still engaging 534 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: in pagan practices, you know, like, uh, some sort of 535 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: divination using the entrails of animals or something that was 536 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: still paganism to them. Is the Bible of grimoire. The 537 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: Bible is not a grim wire. The Bible is uh. 538 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: The Bible contains stuff about occult information in the cult 539 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: characters practice of magic show up, but it doesn't tell 540 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 1: people how to do it. And it's interesting because there 541 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: is a there is an evolution in the early days 542 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: of Christianity where we see the the line between what 543 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: was perceived that as magic was received as holy practices 544 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: or whatever became blurred depend on who you ask. And 545 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: I wonder if the use of the word occult as 546 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: a term of abuse, you know, a cult meaning hi, 547 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 1: is part of that or was proliferated by Christianity and Catholicism, 548 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: because if the Bible doesn't tell you how to do 549 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: the tricks, it just kind of tells you should follow 550 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: and leave that to the people that know how, that 551 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: know what's up. In terms of like who can commune 552 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: with the spirit? I mean, obviously in certain beyond Catholicism, 553 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: you could do it yourself. That was a big part 554 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: of you know, Reformation and all that. But I like 555 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: the idea of Christianity being anti occultism because they already 556 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: have their own book, and they already have their own 557 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: experts in their own practitioners of that are higher level 558 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: and they don't want the plebs getting their fingers and 559 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 1: that stuff. Right, Thou shalt not intercede, right, But there's 560 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 1: a that's I just made that up and used thou shalt, 561 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,879 Speaker 1: but the argument is absolutely sound. What you're saying, Noll, 562 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: is that that that is an interesting juxtaposition. There a 563 00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: position for them to take. And it reminds me before 564 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: go on, did you guys ever hear that Prince Philip 565 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 1: quote about religion? It drove the more conspiratorial minded people 566 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 1: quite quite mad. And it was a was a quote 567 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:21,359 Speaker 1: where he talks about the revealed religions and a lot 568 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: of people thought that, to me, there was a hidden 569 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: mystery or a cult religion of which he and some 570 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: other elite cabal was was part or we're a part. 571 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: But the word, apparently the way that the word is 572 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: being used, a revealed religion is something that has its beliefs, 573 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: since value systems set down in a book or a text, 574 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: according to the official story, but to the Church at 575 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: the time, early days of the Church, they saw magical 576 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: works as impediments to the socio political dominance of their 577 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: belief system, which meant they saw it to actively destroy 578 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: works that ran counter to its purpose, which at that 579 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: time was to convert people right as many as possible, 580 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: to protect adherents of their belief system from the prejudice 581 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: and discrimination of other groups and you know other like 582 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: this is basically what religions were having to do to survive, 583 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: especially if there was a state sponsored religion that had 584 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: a lot of power. You've got to get that tithe 585 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: money in. I mean, how can you build you know, 586 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: entire complexes, churches, cities without that tithe money. So they 587 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: would be destroying books, and books were very powerful. Books 588 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: are still powerful today. The book is not going away 589 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 1: for a long time. And of course, just a bit 590 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: of foreshadowing here, there were apparently a few exceptions to 591 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: their rules of burning and destroying unholy books, and you 592 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: will read ad nauseum so many stories about certain unspeakably 593 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: vile works hidden in the bowels of the Vatican point 594 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: of order. Though, although Christianity gets picked on for book 595 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: burning pretty often nowadays, and although there were a lot 596 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: of books burned and a lot of religions names, the 597 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: early Church was not the originator early Christian churches should 598 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: say it was not the originator of this idea way 599 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: before they got started. Pagan Roman authorities were also suppressing 600 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: any literature that threatened state control of religion, especially like 601 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: we've named all these powers right, how to how to 602 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: sneak into places, how to find treasure, how to summon 603 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: angels and demons. But the thing that civilizations were most 604 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: frightened by and these magical workings. It wasn't cattle witching, 605 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't necromancy. It was divination. It was the idea 606 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 1: that if, even if it was a totally fictional prophecy, 607 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: if enough people believed in it, it would destabilize the state. 608 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: It would destabilize the military. It would, you know, topple 609 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: the house. The cards are the column of cards, the 610 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: Parthenonic cards. Yeah, this is something I wanted to bring 611 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: up really fast. And I was watching all of these 612 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: YouTube videos with this gentleman named Tarl Warwick. That's at 613 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: least what he calls himself. The YouTube channel is sticks 614 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: Hex and Hamma six six six, and he I don't 615 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: know exactly what he is besides an editor of books 616 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: and translator and also a thinker and an occultist. I 617 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: guess his name is Tor Tarl T A R. L. 618 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: And believe that's at least what he calls himself. But 619 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: one of one of his main arguments when discussing the 620 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: occult he has a whole video series on the occult, 621 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,760 Speaker 1: is that if a belief is held by enough people 622 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: and strongly enough, then it is what separates that from 623 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: um reality and fiction. Right if the if the belief 624 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,919 Speaker 1: is strong enough, so one of these tones that would 625 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: be considered a grimoire. If enough people believe that it's real, 626 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: is it real in some way? If there are enough 627 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,839 Speaker 1: people actually chanting out the words that are inside of it, 628 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: or you know, believing that it's true. And so I 629 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,479 Speaker 1: can imagine that the Rumans were terrified that if one 630 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: person gave this divine prophecy, then enough people believed it, 631 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: then perhaps they're gonna try and fulfill it no matter what. Yeah, 632 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: there's a themetic or viral quality to belief. So if 633 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: Noel receives a prophecy and enough people believe in follow them. 634 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: Depend on what the prophecy is, it could just be 635 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: self fulfilling. And I got prophecies for days. Yeah, ask 636 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: me about all right? Yeah? Uh a, Noal, What's what's 637 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 1: gonna be? You know how? Like the guitar is often 638 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: considered the main instrument of a lot of modern music today, 639 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: what's gonna Is it gonna have a replacement? And if so, 640 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: what would that be? The key tar, m it's like 641 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: a guitar, but it's also a keyboard. That's pretty good. 642 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: I mean, that's just it's going to make a comeback 643 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: that just checks out. Yeah, okay, I have one really fastest. 644 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: When will twenty one Savage retire and become whatever his 645 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: next thing is? I don't know who that is? All right, 646 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: it's good enough for me. I think sometimes we see 647 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: we see only partially, you know, through a glass darkly. 648 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: There we go. See he read my mind in b C. 649 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: I do have a prophecy, you do. We need to 650 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: take a break, and so it shall be fulfilled. And 651 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: so if it was fulfilled, that's crazy. Right when you 652 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: said that, that happened and I didn't even say those things. 653 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: It just came out like I saw your eyes roll back. 654 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: Are you cool? You're meeting a little out of your ear. 655 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 1: We'll be right, all right. Well, there's a cute tip 656 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: while you're while you're queuing up, which is our new 657 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,760 Speaker 1: slang for key tips while you're queueing up. Let's let's 658 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: further this with some examples of times that non Christians 659 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: or non Monotheistic religions were like burning books or non 660 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: Abramaic religions. We should say you hundreight. Six b C, 661 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: for example, the Senate rounded up and burned books only 662 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,399 Speaker 1: books on sooth, saying the medicinal stuff was fine. Over 663 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: a century and a half later, two thousand books also 664 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: on divination were burned on the orders of Emperor Augustus. 665 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just for magical books either. It was 666 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: just books that people disagreed with. Like religious and philosophical 667 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: works didn't do much better. In one BC, somebody found 668 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: a buried chest of books that were supposedly the work 669 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: of Pythagoras, and then the Senate said, oh wow, what treasure. 670 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: Burn it. I mean, these guys were burning looks left 671 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: and right religious works. Of course, we're also burned by 672 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: opponents on all sides. If we were living back then, 673 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: and Matt and Nol and I each had different religions, 674 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 1: like one of our main missions would be to destroy 675 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,919 Speaker 1: the other people's stuff unfortunately, uh and and then try 676 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: to convert each other, which reminds me of that story. 677 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, have you ever heard it. It's real quick, 678 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,720 Speaker 1: and listeners please fill this in if you're more familiar 679 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: with this story than I am. There were three patients 680 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: at a an asylum, a mental health facility, who were 681 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,800 Speaker 1: each convinced they were Jesus Christ. And one of the 682 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: staff members, one of the doctors there, said, you know what, 683 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: let's just let's put these guys in the room and 684 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 1: see what happens. And then they thought they would come 685 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: to blows or go crazy, you know, have some sort 686 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: of break, But instead they came back to find them 687 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: apparently like pleasantly chatting just about everyday stuff, and then 688 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: one on one interviews apparently revealed that they had they 689 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: had each come to the conclusion that the other two 690 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: guys were crazy. This is, um, I've heard of this. 691 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: It's got a weird name. It's like the Three Christs 692 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: of and then you insert the name and it's like 693 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: it starts with a why. The three Crists of Ipsilante. 694 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: Is that is that it? It's a silent y Yeah, 695 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it's definitely starts with a why. There's a 696 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: book and a film. According to the Google the thank 697 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: you Good saving also do check that off because it 698 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,919 Speaker 1: shows just some of the intricacies of the human mind 699 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,399 Speaker 1: and perspective. But all this burning, all this censorship led 700 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: to an unfortunate situation wherein modern experts may know that 701 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: a certain text existed, we may find multiple references to 702 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: it in other documents and other historical works, but all 703 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: copies of it were either lost the history are consigned 704 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: to the tragic ashes of a fire somewhere. And this 705 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: means that many grimoires are fakes or half truths, or destroyed. 706 00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 1: In the thousands of years since humanity invented books found 707 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,359 Speaker 1: we enjoyed burning them, and the very beginning of what 708 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: we happen to call the year seventeen. And I don't 709 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: know about you, guys, but I'm thankful that for now 710 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,280 Speaker 1: people have not found a way to burn podcast. Yeah, 711 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: we we should have been making books out of something 712 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,959 Speaker 1: less flammable early on. I think it's easy to say 713 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: that now. So the sum it all up. The t LDR. 714 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: Davies writes that the magic of the first millennium as 715 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: we know it from surviving written text, which is a 716 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: heck of a caveat now as we know, was primarily 717 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,720 Speaker 1: a mix of Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, and Jewish influences. Medieval 718 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: grimoise reflect this, but new traditions developed as scholars uh theologians, 719 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: and I would also insert Charlatan's reconceptualized and reconstructed, sometimes falsely, 720 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 1: the cultures, philosophies, and beliefs of the ancient world. And 721 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: at this point, at this point, we have to we 722 00:45:52,560 --> 00:46:00,160 Speaker 1: have to give the bummer disclaimer, bummer announcement I. At 723 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 1: this point, as we were recording this and we looked 724 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: absolutely no one ever has provided accepted reproducible proof that 725 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:13,839 Speaker 1: any spell or incantation in any true grimoire works, at 726 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: least so far as we could find. And most of 727 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: the claims regarding a successful ritual are either very old 728 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: and anecdotal, or they're backed up by the same single 729 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 1: group of spiritual adherents. So like, there's not anybody saying 730 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 1: that group did it successfully over there, that one right, 731 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,240 Speaker 1: and there's not someone saying, well, let's ship the book 732 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 1: off to you know, Dunwich and try it there and 733 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: get the same results. That anecdotal thing is something we've 734 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: found in a couple of different podcasts and episodes where 735 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 1: we really wanted to find evidence that It reminds me 736 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: of the Ghosts episodes where we are looking so hard 737 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 1: to find something that we could say this is proof 738 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 1: that that this exists. But everything that you read, is 739 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,319 Speaker 1: the story from one person or two people, you know, 740 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: a small group that performed a ritual and it was successful, 741 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: And it's one of these things, where should it be 742 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,760 Speaker 1: that hard to find the evidence of a single person 743 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 1: with all of these different books, all of these different accounts, 744 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: if it was a thing, shouldn't shouldn't it be a 745 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 1: little easier to find a video, a YouTube video of 746 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,319 Speaker 1: someone successfully performing us about or a ritual? And there 747 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: there are questions because there are also people who will say, well, 748 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: I've successfully performed a ritual and it had results that 749 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: are either not easily comprehended or depicted or measurable. Yeah, exactly. 750 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: And so one of the things that came up a 751 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: lot in the Alchemy episode, Yes right, is it weaponized psychology? 752 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: I believe was the phrase. And it's true that some 753 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,719 Speaker 1: of the things that you can do to yourself and 754 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:56,480 Speaker 1: others simply through psychological manipulation come very close to what 755 00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: we would think of as acts of magic, you know, 756 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:04,360 Speaker 1: eight hundred years ago over some we do know that 757 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: while there might not be any proof so far as 758 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,719 Speaker 1: we know, and we would love to see proof. If 759 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,600 Speaker 1: if you feel you have some, please send it to us. Uh, 760 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: this is not We're not going to blow up the 761 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: spot if you ask us not to tell anybody. We 762 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 1: just want to know. While there isn't any proof so 763 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,319 Speaker 1: far that we know of people actually successfully reproducible, that's 764 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,719 Speaker 1: the important part casting spells from a book. There are 765 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: mysterious books in the world, many many more than you 766 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,360 Speaker 1: might think. And we have some examples of grim noise 767 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 1: that are still either unsolved or have numerous questions, or 768 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: that we're convinced if they were convinced that there's stuff 769 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,319 Speaker 1: about them we have yet to fully understand. And we 770 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,080 Speaker 1: have a bunch of examples here in no particular order. 771 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: The Book of Siga, which was allegedly given to John 772 00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: d on March ten of fifteen fifty two, Queen's favorite alchemist, 773 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:07,359 Speaker 1: by an angel. Yes, it was then lost for five 774 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,879 Speaker 1: hundred years following the death of Mr D. And then 775 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,800 Speaker 1: apparently two copies remain in England, that is where they exist, 776 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: and they're written in this code that has yet to 777 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: be solved. That's pretty cool. It's pretty strange, especially to 778 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 1: sing a book was lost for five hundred years. Another 779 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: is the Prodigiorum Ostentorum Chronicle, or chronicle, apportance and prophecies. 780 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,440 Speaker 1: This is interesting because it was written in fififty seven 781 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: thereabouts by guy named Conrad Lycosthenies. This book is a 782 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,759 Speaker 1: reference work of sorts, and it contains here's the thing. 783 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,760 Speaker 1: It contains documented events like we know historically these happened, 784 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: stuff that you can't fake, like Hayley's comment at the 785 00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:00,520 Speaker 1: correct time, like floods, disasters. But in between these different 786 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,040 Speaker 1: world events that are accurate, it also contains descriptions of 787 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 1: sea monsters and UFOs and things that today are more 788 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:16,480 Speaker 1: relegated to the realm of fringe theories. Next we have 789 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,640 Speaker 1: the one I mentioned earlier, which, upon further discussion and 790 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: and and you know observation I don't know necessarily be 791 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,000 Speaker 1: classified as a grimoire no, but I think it's worth 792 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,040 Speaker 1: mentioning because of what it contains. Um. It is the 793 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:33,480 Speaker 1: Discovery of Witchcraft written by a Sir Reginald Scott. Uh. 794 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,799 Speaker 1: He's not officially assert to my knowledge, but I think 795 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 1: it's got a nice ring to it. Who was a 796 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:42,719 Speaker 1: Kentish gentleman, a gentleman from Kent in England. Um. And 797 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: he was attempting to debunk witchcraft and place the blame 798 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,880 Speaker 1: uh for the execution of which is on you know, 799 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,719 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. A lot of these which scares and 800 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,280 Speaker 1: which trials, and would one to kind of paint these 801 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,840 Speaker 1: many of these women who were killed as as complete 802 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 1: and total victims. And you know meant this, not this 803 00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,399 Speaker 1: book to be a very damning portrayal of the way 804 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,080 Speaker 1: the church, the Catholic Church behaved, but it ended up 805 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:22,839 Speaker 1: becoming I think, possibly counter to Scott's intended purpose. Uh. 806 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,680 Speaker 1: This collection of various bits of lore, and even if 807 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,720 Speaker 1: it's spells, one of which we read earlier about finding 808 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:32,319 Speaker 1: the treasure, became widely read and considered a resource on 809 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,120 Speaker 1: the subject. So I'm wondering. Then he said that resource 810 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:41,200 Speaker 1: books and historical collections of this kind of esoterica, this 811 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,200 Speaker 1: kind of witchcraft, um spells and such, would necessarily be 812 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: get considered a grim wire. But isn't it also in 813 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,360 Speaker 1: how you choose to use it? Is it all about 814 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: the intent? Because I don't know, I'm asking, um, I 815 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,120 Speaker 1: think this is worth a mention, but it sets up 816 00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:58,800 Speaker 1: for debate the jury still allow as to whether or 817 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,400 Speaker 1: not this would actually be considered a gridmo listeners, if 818 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,080 Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on that please let us know. 819 00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:04,920 Speaker 1: I think it would if it has a collection of 820 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:09,680 Speaker 1: lord spells, even if he didn't intend it to. There's this, uh, 821 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: this conversation that we've been having off off air for 822 00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,000 Speaker 1: a long time about you know, who owns a piece 823 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,880 Speaker 1: of art after it's created, whether it's a sculpture, a song, 824 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,439 Speaker 1: or you know, a story or a book. It did 825 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: have a spin to it, like I said, Jeff, markedly 826 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,480 Speaker 1: anti Catholic spin and ultimately anti witchcraft. I think it 827 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,160 Speaker 1: was a little bit sympathetic in a way, but kind 828 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,839 Speaker 1: of like thought it was frivolous, not dangerous at all, 829 00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,000 Speaker 1: just sort of like a passing fancy sort of if 830 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,680 Speaker 1: you will, and meant to sort of neuter it. Well 831 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,560 Speaker 1: that I mean, and that would be effective because the 832 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:50,680 Speaker 1: ideas about the the ideas about witchcraft in Europe at 833 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,839 Speaker 1: the time, we're largely held and propagated by people who 834 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: saw themselves as opponents of the practice, and a lot 835 00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: of innocent people died. So if this book through to someone, 836 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,800 Speaker 1: If if Reginald Scott's book did prevent someone from being 837 00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:10,759 Speaker 1: executed in some incredibly torturous way, then I think it 838 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,759 Speaker 1: was a good It was a good deed. However, I 839 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,319 Speaker 1: could easily see the unfortunate path that appears to have 840 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,120 Speaker 1: happened where someone said, here I found a grimoire too. 841 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,359 Speaker 1: I don't care what he says about these spells. I'm 842 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,319 Speaker 1: going to find some treasure, you know. And and I 843 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: think you make a beautiful point about the use of 844 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 1: these things, right, Like is a can of gas and 845 00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:43,040 Speaker 1: a lighter a ticket to a warm fire at night? 846 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,240 Speaker 1: Or is it a ticket to burn down a building? 847 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,280 Speaker 1: You know? It is all things. And if if these 848 00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,480 Speaker 1: if the belief here is that this magic actually works, 849 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,560 Speaker 1: then in a way people would see these books as weapons, 850 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:02,800 Speaker 1: even if somebody made one that said clearly, I'm showing 851 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,560 Speaker 1: you that this is all malarkey and you should stop 852 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:11,080 Speaker 1: hurting people for silly reasons. But then also there's some stuff, 853 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,799 Speaker 1: probably one of the some of the biggest legends we've 854 00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 1: talked about, something like there's the Book of Shadows that 855 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,920 Speaker 1: we touch upon in our video stuff. There's one that 856 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,399 Speaker 1: got me um that I'd really like to hear from 857 00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:26,279 Speaker 1: the listeners about. It's called the Grand Grim wis the 858 00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:30,480 Speaker 1: Red Dragon and this is sort of um. This is 859 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,719 Speaker 1: one of the white whales of the of the Grimoire 860 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:39,040 Speaker 1: World was allegedly written in fift twenty, and it was 861 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,200 Speaker 1: penned by a guy named Honorius of Thebes during a 862 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:49,120 Speaker 1: particularly nasty bout of demonic possession. And so yeah, and 863 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,880 Speaker 1: so you have, and so apparently the spells within it work. 864 00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,440 Speaker 1: It was owned, the legend goes it's owned by the 865 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:03,040 Speaker 1: Roman Catholic Church, and it's unavailable to the public. It 866 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:09,200 Speaker 1: contains the only working rituals to summon uh Satan or 867 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,879 Speaker 1: other demonic forces such as Pezzus think like Pezuzu from 868 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:22,680 Speaker 1: The Exorcists, and all and right and uh and then 869 00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,239 Speaker 1: also ways to corrupt the pope over time. So if 870 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,960 Speaker 1: all that's true, why didn't anyone destroy it, especially with 871 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,399 Speaker 1: this predilection for burning books off the Suddenly a little 872 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,040 Speaker 1: bit you guys stoked about the Young Pope because I'm 873 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,800 Speaker 1: really excited about it. I haven't. I've seen the trailer. 874 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,320 Speaker 1: I watched the first twenty minutes of the first episode 875 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,800 Speaker 1: last night. I love it, but Diana was falling asleep, 876 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: so I said, we're gonna table it till tonight. Put 877 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,480 Speaker 1: a pen in it. Yeah, well, listeners, let us know 878 00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,799 Speaker 1: what you're thinking about the Young Pope. I'm excited about it. 879 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,759 Speaker 1: The first shot. Yeah, from the entire thing. Have you 880 00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,359 Speaker 1: seen it? You haven't seen it all. The first thing, 881 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,360 Speaker 1: you see, I'm trying to figure it out, trying to 882 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,239 Speaker 1: see where they're taking me. But again, I've only seen 883 00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,360 Speaker 1: the first twenty four minutes or so. But the first shot. 884 00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 1: You know, I know they can be controversial throughout history, 885 00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,760 Speaker 1: but I've never had an unpleasant conversation with the pope 886 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:22,200 Speaker 1: on my end, at least, have you divined so conversations 887 00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,400 Speaker 1: with popes? Here's the kicker, Why they can't destroy the 888 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,879 Speaker 1: book because apparently it can't burn. Is there any way 889 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,880 Speaker 1: we can have that happen? And then talking about the 890 00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,000 Speaker 1: young Pope because it was building it up so well. 891 00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,360 Speaker 1: I was waiting for Ben to say it can't burn 892 00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,280 Speaker 1: and then go to the young Pope. Is that possible? 893 00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:49,040 Speaker 1: That's okay, okay, okay, because we're clearly like having fun 894 00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:54,719 Speaker 1: with you. Okay. Now, I know that's a lot to 895 00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,720 Speaker 1: take in, folks. Uh, And I want to let people 896 00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:04,880 Speaker 1: know I looked I recently also, and I've been sending 897 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:10,080 Speaker 1: some correspondence to the to the Vatican to see, you know, 898 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,359 Speaker 1: if there's any sand to this story because I at 899 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:18,000 Speaker 1: this point couldn't find UH an official yes or no 900 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,000 Speaker 1: over whether they own a book like this. UH. There 901 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: are copies or purported copies that you can buy, because 902 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:30,520 Speaker 1: apparently it's popular in some other circles, especially in voud 903 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,680 Speaker 1: unrelated circles. But those aren't the only mysterious books. There's 904 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,800 Speaker 1: also some that I would consider the the we don't 905 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,320 Speaker 1: know books, like the Rohan Seed Codex UH, donated to 906 00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,280 Speaker 1: the Hungarian Academy of Sciences in the early nineteenth century. 907 00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,160 Speaker 1: Not only do we not know what it's about because 908 00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,480 Speaker 1: it's written in like the Oiga, like the Oiga Chronicles 909 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,200 Speaker 1: and uncracked code, we also don't know where it comes from. 910 00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,919 Speaker 1: It just short of showed up with an alphabet all 911 00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,640 Speaker 1: its own. Some people believe it is a hoax, but 912 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,160 Speaker 1: so far, at the time of the recording, no one 913 00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,920 Speaker 1: has proven that to be the case. And then, of 914 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,160 Speaker 1: course there's the Voyantage manuscript we've talked about. This is 915 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,600 Speaker 1: an older video. This has come up in numerous episodes 916 00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:16,920 Speaker 1: just as a creepy cool UH. I don't one of 917 00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,000 Speaker 1: those topics that you can bring up at any dinner 918 00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,760 Speaker 1: conversation and you'll you will be the talk the toast 919 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,600 Speaker 1: of the dinner of the table, because it's just it's 920 00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,800 Speaker 1: really cool. It doesn't have any inherently like occult ish, 921 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't have spells. It's it's it's it's all these amazing, gorgeous, 922 00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:38,280 Speaker 1: frankly illustrations of things that just frankly don't exist. Wow, 923 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,440 Speaker 1: but they might, like plants that aren't real, you know, 924 00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:45,680 Speaker 1: in in a very naturalistic as though it were a 925 00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,000 Speaker 1: medical illustration of some sort or like like like you said, 926 00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:52,919 Speaker 1: a uh something from Darwin's Journalist perhaps like very much 927 00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,720 Speaker 1: looks to be observational illustrations, which is what makes it 928 00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,920 Speaker 1: so darn cool. It's named after the book dealer Vinefited 929 00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:05,640 Speaker 1: Wantach Wantach, who acquired the book in nine and it's 930 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,040 Speaker 1: been dated to sometime around the fourteen hundreds, maybe as 931 00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:11,760 Speaker 1: recently as fourteen thirty eight. And it appears to be, 932 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:17,200 Speaker 1: as you're saying, part pharmacopeia illustrations of plants and herbs, 933 00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:22,360 Speaker 1: but also part alchemy, part just treatise on the cosmos, 934 00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,840 Speaker 1: part of a encyclopedia for a world that doesn't exist. 935 00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,640 Speaker 1: And it appears that this is just scratching the surface 936 00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:35,240 Speaker 1: of one part of the world's evolution with magic, and 937 00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,280 Speaker 1: just just a few of those books. There's so many more. 938 00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:40,880 Speaker 1: But it appears that whether or not you believe in 939 00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:43,720 Speaker 1: magic yourself, there really is stuff they don't want you 940 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,800 Speaker 1: to know about. Grim Wise will never know exactly how 941 00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 1: many magical texts were lost to purges of ancient empires, 942 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:54,960 Speaker 1: religious zealots, looters, and plunderers, and it's it's tantalizing to 943 00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,240 Speaker 1: know that some of these are mentioned in other texts 944 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:02,680 Speaker 1: and we will never encounter them because the people who 945 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:06,320 Speaker 1: didn't want you to know this numbered in the hundreds 946 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:11,720 Speaker 1: of thousands, perhaps the millions, and they had executed this 947 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:18,880 Speaker 1: conspiracy a thousands of years before we were twinkles and 948 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,840 Speaker 1: our grandparents eyes. You know what I mean. Do you 949 01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:28,240 Speaker 1: think there's real magical knowledge that's hidden out there that's gone, 950 01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:32,240 Speaker 1: It's just lost because these texts are gone. I feel 951 01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,080 Speaker 1: like there's got to be some kind of knowledge, even 952 01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:39,040 Speaker 1: if it's just herbal some herbalism stuff, what certain plants 953 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:44,120 Speaker 1: can cure, you know, just trial and error over time. 954 01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,480 Speaker 1: I mean that I'm sure that happens now. Pharmaceutical companies 955 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,920 Speaker 1: have sent people into you know, into very rural areas 956 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,560 Speaker 1: of the Amazon to research plants, uh, the efficacy of 957 01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:59,400 Speaker 1: plants treein disease. If we're just spitballing, I guess it's 958 01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:05,600 Speaker 1: also possible that an ancient civilization could have documented the 959 01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:09,960 Speaker 1: orbit of a comment or something that is so far 960 01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:14,120 Speaker 1: out and comes so rarely we wouldn't be aware of it. 961 01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:19,040 Speaker 1: Possibly we saw last, not this previous Monday, but last 962 01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:25,520 Speaker 1: or was it this previous Monday. Notice, Yes, there's a 963 01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,440 Speaker 1: fire Earth giant asteroid that we've are just seeing for 964 01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:33,200 Speaker 1: the first time. And then, you know, I think it's 965 01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,760 Speaker 1: completely possible that there are books that are hidden and 966 01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,960 Speaker 1: they were written by people who believed very much and 967 01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,320 Speaker 1: what they were writing. And I'm sure that there are 968 01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:46,959 Speaker 1: suppressed works, Uh, whether those are waiting to be found, 969 01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,160 Speaker 1: or whether they destroyed they were destroyed, or whether they 970 01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:55,320 Speaker 1: actually can do something. Whether it's possible for us to 971 01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:05,400 Speaker 1: summon something. I don't know. I think we should try. 972 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:07,960 Speaker 1: Do you think we should dry? I kind of want 973 01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,520 Speaker 1: to try. We should. We should get woven in here 974 01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:18,280 Speaker 1: again and Damien, Damien Kim, let's do it. Damian the 975 01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:23,040 Speaker 1: creepy kid from the Omen. Yes, he and then our 976 01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,920 Speaker 1: friend Damien, We'll get him to come into be a 977 01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:29,360 Speaker 1: powerhouse duo? Can you go double Damien? Is that like 978 01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,600 Speaker 1: it's not gonna be like when two people in the 979 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:37,280 Speaker 1: same crew where hat wear the same hat. Two Damian's 980 01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:45,080 Speaker 1: don't make a Shamie Shamian Damian. Right, Okay, all right, well, 981 01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,080 Speaker 1: we do hope that we do hope that you enjoyed 982 01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,640 Speaker 1: this episode. We're interested to hear what you think because 983 01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:55,480 Speaker 1: there's so much information about Grimoise and there's such a 984 01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,360 Speaker 1: i'll say it, fascinating evolution here that we're going to 985 01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:03,040 Speaker 1: continue exploring this off the air and may have some 986 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,320 Speaker 1: updates for you, or may have some updates from you 987 01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,760 Speaker 1: for your fellow listeners. If you would like to read 988 01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:12,360 Speaker 1: more about the evolution of grim Wise boy, have we 989 01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,720 Speaker 1: got a book for you. Check out Grimoise a History 990 01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:20,120 Speaker 1: of Magical Books by Owen Davies And if you like 991 01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,760 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, go to grimois dot org. There 992 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,560 Speaker 1: it's just a place where you can look up different grimoires, 993 01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,320 Speaker 1: uh and they're they're listed out through a timeline as 994 01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:35,560 Speaker 1: well with the purported written dates and throughout the centuries. 995 01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,480 Speaker 1: That's good stuff. Do we have time for a little 996 01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:46,000 Speaker 1: lust shot at corners. Excellent, Yes, thank you know, our 997 01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:52,120 Speaker 1: first shout out corner and goes to Devon w with it, 998 01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:55,640 Speaker 1: gets his own entire corner. Oh yeah, he gets a part. 999 01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,960 Speaker 1: He gets a part of the corner. Scoot and scoot over, Devin. Sorry, 1000 01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,480 Speaker 1: nobody puts Devon in a corner. Actually, I really like this. 1001 01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,280 Speaker 1: We're in one corner because there are four corners obviously, 1002 01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:07,240 Speaker 1: and then there are three shoutouts, and each one is 1003 01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,080 Speaker 1: in a different corner, so it's more of a shout out. 1004 01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:15,280 Speaker 1: It's room. Yeah, all right, Well while we are working out, okay, 1005 01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,280 Speaker 1: we're gonna get some We're gonna get some pen and 1006 01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,400 Speaker 1: paper and figure this out, or just some blood and pavirus. 1007 01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,480 Speaker 1: Devin w rights it and says I love your podcast. However, 1008 01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,919 Speaker 1: I was listening guys recent show on the Hemp Car 1009 01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,600 Speaker 1: when guys were going through listener mail. You seem to 1010 01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,280 Speaker 1: be under the impression that Vladimir Putin was the head 1011 01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,000 Speaker 1: of the KGB at some point, and think that'd be true. 1012 01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:37,720 Speaker 1: I did a little looking up and found, in fact, 1013 01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,560 Speaker 1: it was not. He left this service as lieutenant colonel. 1014 01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,040 Speaker 1: It makes sense since there's a narrative driven by the 1015 01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,840 Speaker 1: media lately anyways, just wanted to correct the record. Thanks 1016 01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,040 Speaker 1: for the thanks for a great podcasts, Devin. Thank you 1017 01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:52,400 Speaker 1: even more for a great correction. These are very important 1018 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:57,240 Speaker 1: to us. Uh this, Devin, you are correct. This was 1019 01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,200 Speaker 1: on me because the truth of the matter is. On 1020 01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:04,960 Speaker 1: July Yeltson appointed Putin as the director of the f 1021 01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,920 Speaker 1: s B, the Federal Security Service, which is the successor 1022 01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:13,200 Speaker 1: to the Cold War a KGB. Devin, thank you even 1023 01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:17,480 Speaker 1: more for writing this one was on me. Folks is correct. 1024 01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:21,880 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin was never the head of the KGB. He 1025 01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:25,760 Speaker 1: was appointed the director of the f s B, the 1026 01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:31,560 Speaker 1: successor to the KGB, on July by Yelson, so he 1027 01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:36,320 Speaker 1: was in charge of the of the successor today it 1028 01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:39,760 Speaker 1: was in charge of the FSB intelligence service and was 1029 01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:43,600 Speaker 1: a high ranking official in the KGP. Yes, this one 1030 01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,760 Speaker 1: comes from josh At Shivers smash on Twitter act conspiracy 1031 01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,920 Speaker 1: stuff nol. There are reports that the Smashing Pumpkins are 1032 01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:55,040 Speaker 1: legitimately getting back together for a tour. You are a wizard, no, sir, 1033 01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:59,880 Speaker 1: not a wizard, a seer, a prophet, a sayer of south, 1034 01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:07,120 Speaker 1: a sooth sayer slayer. Yeah no, um, that's cool. I hope. 1035 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,240 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe it'll keep Billy Corgan from saying dumb stuff 1036 01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:13,600 Speaker 1: in the press and kids suit over wrestling and going 1037 01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:16,880 Speaker 1: on Alex Jones. That'd be cool. Play some music, Billy Corgan. 1038 01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:21,080 Speaker 1: I'd beat down with that. What why are you guys 1039 01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,320 Speaker 1: the eyeball on me? I gotta have issues. I've got 1040 01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,880 Speaker 1: beat the guy sort of you know, ruined my childhood 1041 01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:31,080 Speaker 1: by like being such a blowhard. And that's not the 1042 01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:34,120 Speaker 1: only tweet we got regarding Smashing buff I have feelings 1043 01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,280 Speaker 1: about Billy Corgan. I'm sorry, Okay. I was just a 1044 01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:39,360 Speaker 1: huge fan when I was a kid. I thought he 1045 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,640 Speaker 1: was such a sensitive lad. I felt like he really 1046 01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:46,000 Speaker 1: summed up by teenage angst, like melanchol in the infinite sadness. Yeah, 1047 01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:48,160 Speaker 1: I mean those you know, doing the ten albums that 1048 01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,360 Speaker 1: affected your teenage years that's been making the rounds lately. 1049 01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,680 Speaker 1: Three of them were Pumpkins albums for me, So you 1050 01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:58,720 Speaker 1: know why you gotta do that to a kid, Billy Corgan? Anyway, 1051 01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:04,760 Speaker 1: another one, um, we had Philo Cult tweet at us. 1052 01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,280 Speaker 1: You guys asked the Smashing Pumpkins to get back together, 1053 01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:10,040 Speaker 1: and they did. You know, it was just an inkling 1054 01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:14,360 Speaker 1: it was an inkling. Well, maybe maybe there's something redemptive 1055 01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:16,560 Speaker 1: about it. Maybe the story of Noel Brown and the 1056 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:24,280 Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins has a better ended. Maybe so uh, I 1057 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,120 Speaker 1: feel like Organ, I still love you, man, It's cool. 1058 01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:31,240 Speaker 1: I have opinions too. And the last shout out goes 1059 01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:35,880 Speaker 1: to the Ben randall At in the Weeds w b R, 1060 01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:38,720 Speaker 1: who says, Yo, I don't even smoke weed, but I 1061 01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:44,360 Speaker 1: would totally smoke some sweet kitten whisper. I think that 1062 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,480 Speaker 1: is hilarious. I think anyone would really, Well, you can 1063 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:50,880 Speaker 1: always you can always count on bens. They're good people's right. 1064 01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:53,760 Speaker 1: If I'm being honest, kitten whisper sounds like the name 1065 01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,680 Speaker 1: for a much harder drug than weed. I'm just putting 1066 01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,240 Speaker 1: that out there. That's true. That's true. It's like if 1067 01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,760 Speaker 1: you see a really mean looking rough person and they 1068 01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,960 Speaker 1: have a very strangely uh soft nickname, you need to 1069 01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,680 Speaker 1: be frightened of them. It's dear clear. Yeah, if you 1070 01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:13,000 Speaker 1: see a seven ft two guy with visible face scars 1071 01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:17,760 Speaker 1: named sprinkles run. Oh yeah, here's the other thing. What 1072 01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:27,519 Speaker 1: does a sweet kitten whisper like sound like? Mhmm? Are 1073 01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:29,720 Speaker 1: you gonna put something in there. I got I got nothing. Man, No, 1074 01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:31,280 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna put anything in there that's not a 1075 01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:34,000 Speaker 1: sound that the human voice can make. Okay, that is 1076 01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:36,880 Speaker 1: that is beyond our powers in this room. Right, it's 1077 01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:39,519 Speaker 1: gonna be unfair to gain whispers. I'm gonna do it. 1078 01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:45,840 Speaker 1: This is what a sweet kitten whisper sounds. I don't 1079 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:48,960 Speaker 1: know why that makes me uncomfortable. Gives me the a 1080 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:52,439 Speaker 1: s mr tingles. Yeah, that's what I hear. Man. It's like, um, 1081 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:54,640 Speaker 1: it's a meal. It's a sweet little kitten meal. But 1082 01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:59,680 Speaker 1: it's also should we pop a sweet kitten meousy the 1083 01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:02,679 Speaker 1: old dusty trail? Yeah, I think it's that resipe me out, 1084 01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:09,679 Speaker 1: uh yep. And with that, and if you have any 1085 01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,040 Speaker 1: suggestions or comments or you want to shout out any 1086 01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,200 Speaker 1: of that stuff, you can find us on Facebook, where 1087 01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:16,679 Speaker 1: we're conspiracy stuff. You want to put me in my place, 1088 01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, give me what for? If you want to 1089 01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:21,920 Speaker 1: give NOL what for? Hit us up on Twitter, we 1090 01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:26,519 Speaker 1: are also conspiracy stuff there if you want to, I 1091 01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,200 Speaker 1: don't know, what. What do you do? On Instagram? If 1092 01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:32,679 Speaker 1: you look at pictures, if you want to look at pictures, 1093 01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,040 Speaker 1: if you if you want to see some behind the 1094 01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:37,559 Speaker 1: scenes stuff that we do here that may not make 1095 01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:39,240 Speaker 1: it to the air for one reason or another. You 1096 01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:42,240 Speaker 1: can follow us on Instagram. We are Conspiracy Stuff Show. 1097 01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:45,280 Speaker 1: If you want to check out our exorcism podcasts some 1098 01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:49,600 Speaker 1: of our earlier works. While you're on the internet, you 1099 01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:53,360 Speaker 1: can find every single podcast we've ever done at our website. 1100 01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:55,320 Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you know dot Com. And hey, 1101 01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:57,040 Speaker 1: if you haven't heard of that care bear movie and 1102 01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,400 Speaker 1: you're already online, I bet you could find it on YouTube. 1103 01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:01,719 Speaker 1: It's true. And hey, if none of that whispers you're kitten, 1104 01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,480 Speaker 1: give us an email. Drop it to us at Conspiracy 1105 01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:06,400 Speaker 1: and How Stuff Works. Stuck