WEBVTT - Realigning Our Expectations 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.960 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKF Daily with Me 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:19.079 your Girl, Danielle Moody, recording from the Long Island Bunker 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:24.520 as we get ready to celebrate the holiday this week, folks, 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:27.960 I'm very excited because we decided that this week on 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.600 WOKAF was really largely going to be about the labor movement, 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:37.199 to be about workers fighting for their rights and fighting 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:41.760 for not just a decent wage, but a thriving one. 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.440 As I said in my interview earlier in the week 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:50.879 with Francesca Ramsey, it's really important that we are thoughtful 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.520 about the language that we use and the conversations and 0:00:54.560 --> 0:01:01.120 the narrative that we have because outside of the one percent, folks, sure, 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:06.560 there are gradiations of workers and labor. We understood that 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:13.280 very plainly during the COVID nineteen pandemic, when the privilege 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:17.240 were able to stay inside and stay safe while the 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:22.240 essential workers, the ones that oftentimes make the least were 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:27.440 forced to be outside right with no protections, and recognizing 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.199 that a lot of what we are seeing now spawned 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.560 out of that time, a time when we were told 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:37.440 that in order to work, you need to be inside 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.160 of a cubicle eight ten hours a day, five days 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.440 a week. Well, lo and behold when that work had 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:48.120 to turn to remote work. Guess what didn't happen? The 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:53.200 folding of a bunch of companies, right, Guess what didn't happen, right, 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.680 the shareholders and CEOs not being able to make money? 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.400 They did doubly time over. You know, So what we 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:04.040 got the ability to have control over our own lives, 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.840 the ability to do both and right, take care of 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.320 our families, take care of ourselves. Why in fact holding 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:16.120 down a job? And so during this time, I think 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:19.040 that we are recognizing and in my conversation coming up 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:24.240 next with our friend labor rights advocate and author Kim Kelly, 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.680 you know, we talk about whether or not this moment 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.400 that we have been in for the last year plus 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.160 is a moment or is it a movement? Right? Are 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:39.760 we going to see more industries striking to get the benefits, 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.800 to get the resources that they deserve? 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:43.880 Right? 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:48.520 We know that capitalism is a fucking lie and a scam. 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.720 It is the pyramid scheme to end all pyramid schemes. 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:54.799 But we know until it's done, we have to find 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.720 a way to operate inside of it that is healthy 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:02.400 for us. Right, that actual gives us the resources that 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:06.160 we need to live not just a decent life, but 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.440 to live a good life, one that allows us to 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.600 be able to not just survive, but to be able 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:16.720 to thrive. And so what does that look like. In 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.760 this conversation with our friend Kim Kelly, we look at 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.200 the scope of this year, the strikes that we've seen, 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.200 from healthcare workers to actors, to writers, to auto workers 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:31.320 and more, and discuss what we think about what we 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.560 have seen and whether this is truly the beginning of 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:41.160 a reorientation and a reimagining about how we see labor 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:50.560 moving forward. Coming up next, my conversation with Kim Kelly Folks. 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.320 I am always excited. I want to get the opportunity 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:57.040 to welcome back to the show Kim Kelly, who is 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:03.960 a freelance journalist, person who is the go to person 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.280 about labor, about workers, the author of Fight Like Hell, 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:12.440 The Untold History of American Labor. Whenever we talk, Caim, 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.720 I'll tell you, I get off the get off the call, 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.720 and I always feel like, Okay, we're like we're in this, 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.480 like we're doing this, like you know, like we can 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:27.960 do this. We can change how this society functions and 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.520 it is going to be a bit by bit, bite 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.760 by bite, you know, strike by strike type of situation. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.240 But I want to get like your sense, now that 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:42.279 we're closing out the year where it has been historic 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.200 in a lot of ways for workers across industries, how 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:50.320 you are feeling and what of the strikes has has 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.560 kind of resonated with you the most. 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.719 It's been really exciting. I mean, I think everyone is 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:01.159 pretty stoked about the UAW strike, the ensuing contract that 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.159 I think the workers are voting on right now. It 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.240 seems like it'll probably be a slam dunk, but you 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.560 never know. It's up to them. But I just think 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.400 so much of the dialogue and the enthusiasm that we've 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:14.840 seen kick up thanks to that strike, and of course 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:19.479 the ongoing seg after strike and the Pittsburgh Post Gazette strike, 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.920 and all of these strikes are happening, the walk out 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.799 of pharmacy technicians, the work that the Union of Southern 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.839 Service Workers continues to do in the South. There's so 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:32.400 much going on, and it really seems like they're like 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.080 people have realized that there are ways to get involved 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.359 even if they don't currently work at a unionized workplace, 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.200 or they're not in an industry or a job title 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:45.159 that's able to unionize your traditional means. Yet, like people 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:49.080 are getting involved, and I think younger people especially, I 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.240 think there's a impulsive especially like older generations to kind 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.719 of wave away social media as something that met It's like, 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.520 you know, oh, the TikTok, like whatever those kids are doing, 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:05.840 the kids are educating and radicalizeding on TikTok and on Instagram, 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.000 on Twitter, well, you know. 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.240 It was yeah right, uh boom. 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.120 And one thing that has given me a lot of 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:19.480 hope too is seeing the way that rank and file 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.680 union members and some straight up and some unions and 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.520 some union councils have been rallying around the cause of 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:31.919 the Palestinian people Palestinian workers in a way that's caused 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:33.880 a lot of friction in the movement that I think 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.000 is it needs to be there. There's some tension there 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.040 that needs to kind of be pushed because I think 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:44.839 it's becoming clear that, you know, our elected union leadership 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.920 isn't always on the same page as the people they're 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:50.960 supposed to represent, So what do we do with that? 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.600 It's kind of you know, we were talking about the 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.760 upcoming elections. That's kind of that question at large, what 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.279 do you do when the will of the members or 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.320 the people does reflect the actions of their statements of 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.880 the yes in charge. Well, like you could do what 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.280 you know, and you know obviously not this current moment. 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.080 It took a few years to get here. But the 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.520 whole reason we have Sean Fain and this new energized 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:22.680 militant UAW is because rank and file workers with the 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:27.160 UAW united for I can't remember the acronym, but they 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.720 wont there. There's a group basically a group of reform 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.560 minded rank and file workers in the UAW pushed to 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:39.160 get this reform slet going. He's the first democratically elected 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:44.080 president of the uaw's history. Wow. Right, Like like as 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.040 what we saw at the Teamsters with Sean O'Brien, that 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.160 was because of a reform movement. The team sits for 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.760 a democratic union. Like we've seen that it is possible 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:58.960 to change leadership, to change priorities, to change political alignments. 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:01.360 And I really think this might be one of the 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.720 tipping points, Like we're going to see like a lot 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.240 of rank and file union members I see in and 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.840 spoken to are really pissed at the statements we're seeing 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.160 from the afl COO or from their union presidents or 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:18.200 and or are being you know, compelled to use their 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:23.040 labor to perpetuate this slaughter. And I think there's going 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.280 to be a reckoning in the next few years when 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.720 it comes to who's in charge of these unions, because 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.400 union leader terms don't last forever. 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.400 Let me let me ask you this too, because I 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.240 think that what has happened with kind of, like you said, 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.120 the the re education or the education in the first 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.440 place for people happening via social media, whether that is 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:48.000 TikTok or Instagram or the like about unions. Talk to 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:53.600 us about why unions kind of broke down in terms 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:58.240 of favor right, public favor public, the public being supportive 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.480 of unions. Unions had a big surge. We had the 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.920 Industrial Revolution, we had all of these factories, we have 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.600 all of these deaths and horrible things that are happening. 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:12.200 People begin to you know, to unionize right to get 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.840 things like a five day work week, to get things 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.839 like rid of things like child labor, to get you know, 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.959 benefits and safety measures put in place so that frankly, 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.760 they're able to do their jobs and not risk life 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:31.600 and limb literally, and so this happens, and then it's 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:37.000 as if the workers themselves turned on the very support 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.719 system that was put in place in order to make 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:42.440 sure that they would be okay. So I just want 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:46.600 you to be able to help us understand the why 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.880 that happened. And then yeah, and then the up and 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.920 the up and down because now we're back in an 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:55.920 up place where we're talking about unions in a way 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.560 that frankly, I don't think that we've talked about unions 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.480 and I've been in politics and policy for a while, 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:02.439 in like fifteen twenty years. 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.679 Yeah, there's been a big shift, like we are so back, 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.280 but I think a lot of it goes back to 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.839 what all went down in the eighties under the Reagan administration. 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:19.559 Like you can't pin everything terrible and a world on 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:21.560 that guy, but you can pin a lot, a lot 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.000 a lot of our current society and political problems go 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:29.600 right back to that motherfucker. So him breaking the pack 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:33.960 code strike and really encouraging this greed is good anti labor, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:39.120 anti workers sentiment and showing corporations and bosses that, oh, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.439 we can get away with not working with unians. We 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:44.480 can get away with busting strikes, we can get away 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.280 with hiring sabs. It was kind of this big shift, 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.120 and you add in all of the things that have 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:55.160 happened since then, whether it's de industrialization or offshoring, and 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.640 the rise of right to work laws, so called right 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.400 to work laws that Republicans have pushed all over the place, 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:05.680 the weakening of existing labor laws, the rise of corporate 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:10.320 media that is either explicitly anti labor or kind of 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:15.240 like you could tell they're just not interested in corporate labor. 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.120 I mean, people who have studied this and are much 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:19.880 smarter than may have really broken it down in a 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.720 lot of ways. But I feel like that's the vibe 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.280 that we're dealing with us, the tide we've been swimming 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.640 against because the labor would never went anywhere, just lost 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.280 a lot of power. But or at this moment where 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.880 I think the biggest change has been the availability of information, 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.920 because this is something even back in twenty fifteen when 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.280 I was organizing at my last workplace, our biggest hurdle 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.000 wasn't that people were anti union or that they had 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.840 ingested like a lot of anti union talking points, is 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.360 that they didn't know what a union was, what it 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.720 could do for them, or that they were even eligible 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.000 to join when and once we got past that hurdle, 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.439 we organized like five hundred people. Like that's how we 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.199 ended up here, Like I was, was I kind of 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:03.720 ended up here by accident? 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.079 Yeah, But I think that's something that. 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.719 Is really fueling this change is the fact that there 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.920 is so much more access to information pro union or 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.600 even just fair coverage of unions and what they do 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.800 and of what workers' rights could and should look like 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.400 the fact that we have labor reporters and publicate like 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.360 progressive publications like in These Times and Labor Notes and 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.160 even the Nation the Baffler places like that that are 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:38.040 really pouring resources energy into covering these movements. Even main 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.600 like mainstream mass corporate media has been covering the UAW 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:45.280 strikes like they were covering Strike Tober when it was happening, 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:49.000 like they're covering the variety of the actions that have happening. 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.400 It's there's been a shift. I think it's really just 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.520 people realizing, oh, we can do that, right, if we 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.559 do that, things might actually happen. 0:12:58.600 --> 0:12:59.120 It happen. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.800 I think it's been this kind of realignment of people's 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:08.800 expectations of thinking, Oh, okay, I don't have to go 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.120 full you know, Johnny paycheck, take this job and shove it. 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:20.960 I can stick around and make my job better. Huh. 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.079 You know, in all honesty, that's what all of this 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.160 is about, right, you know? It kind of flies in 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:33.800 the face of the sentiment that Republicans always try and 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.280 put out, which is that, honestly, the American people are lazy. 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.400 They don't want to work, they just want to hand out. Right. 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.760 The idea around unions is like, no, I do want 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.080 to work, but I want dignity and respect and a 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.680 wage where I can support myself and my family, right 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:56.160 like like, so it's this and and look at any 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:02.960 other I would say, industrialize greedy ask country Americans take 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.800 die with vacation days. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.880 Americans literally go to their grave and could afford I 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:15.520 could have could could have afforded a month months off, 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.320 but didn't take their but didn't take their time off 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:22.920 because somehow we have been we have been forced into 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.800 this belief, this perverse idea that the more that we produce, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.520 the better of a human that we are right and 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.160 so if you and so it's just like this, I 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:35.880 feel like unions fly in the face of that where 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.440 it's just like, no, I want to work. I just 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.160 I want to be able to like not just be 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.520 working to survive, like I'd actually like a life. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:47.840 I think that's such a huge part of it. Like 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:51.880 we've we've been hoodwinked, we've been what that. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.000 the harder you work, the better person you are, like that, 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.720 like vintage Puritan Protestant work ethic. We've been. We've been 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:03.640 we've internalized or been forced to internalize. And that that 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:09.960 like very American individualistic sort of character, sort of quality 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.480 that is so celebrated, you know, the Horatio Algurs, the 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.840 Great Man there, all of the bullshit that makes us 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:22.040 more isolated and more like islands into ourselves. And that 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.320 is not how human beings are meant to operate. We're 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:31.880 a collective species, communal species, like we do best when 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:38.760 we're in groups like gudea things, you know, And that's 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:40.920 I think that's a big crireless shift too, Like this 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.120 shift from people thinking how am I going to get 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.640 mine and take care of my family? To oh, how 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.720 are we going to take care of everyone? At this workplace. 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:51.320 How are we going to take care of everyone in 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.480 our union? How are we going to take care of 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.800 the whole working class? And I do even though he's 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.440 not you know, he's not covering himself with glory right now, 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.160 I do have to kind of point back to the 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.600 Bernie Sanders campaigns for president with that ninety nine percent idea, 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:10.440 that post occupy the ninety nine percent, like it's us 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.360 against them idea. I think for a lot of folks, 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.240 especially in like I think our generation and maybe even 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.560 a little younger, that was kind of one of the 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.720 first political awakenings we had of like, oh, like us, 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.320 we're in this protest, We're in this occupation, We're in 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:29.680 this group versus the bad guys. Yeah. Yeah, we're not 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:34.680 wanting what they have, We're wanting what we deserve. And 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.360 I think that shift is still being felt. You know, 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.120 it's a lot of different factors. You know. 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.920 It's so interesting too because I honestly, and you may 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.560 laugh at this, I believe that the advent of reality 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:51.200 TV has a lot to do with that. I think that, Yeah, 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:57.400 I think that this obsession with wealth and with consumption 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:03.560 and materialism had people believe that they were just one experience, 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:08.280 one check, one lottery ticket away from living this life. 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:13.440 So they coveted right in this very jealous minded space. 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:18.000 But then all of a sudden, the chasm right between 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.600 my super sweet sixteen and now a Kim Kardashian being 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.879 a billionaire and having her own jet, being part of 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.480 being part of the machinery that built that, with our viewership, 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.760 with our you know, with our desire to like peek 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:37.960 inside of that world. And I think that a lot 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.639 of we've watched this and we've seen like, wait a minute, 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.679 how did they get even more money than what we 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.880 started out watching ten fifteen years ago? Like I'm still 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.960 in the same apartment watching this show, but they but 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:55.760 there are they own an eyelid? 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:56.080 Now? 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:58.520 How do fuck that happen? You know what I'm saying. 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.960 So I feel I do, I feel like that kind 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:06.199 of voyeurism into well, I mean, you've seen some of 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.760 these real house spilee people get caught up with tax 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.359 evation and all of these things, grifting off of this 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:16.199 idea that they have more, you know, than they actually have. 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.359 And so I just I'm just curious, like how you 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:24.120 think that pop culture and our American obsession with wealth 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.840 has also played a part into this big awakening where 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.760 we're realizing that the ninety nine percent of us are 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.560 still in the same place and this one percent has 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.800 gotten like went from millionaires to billionaires in that same time. 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.399 That's so interesting to think about. Like, so if you 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.600 feel like before the advent of mass media, nobody really 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.720 knew what the really rich people were up to or 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.800 what they had, Yeah, no, it could kind of like, oh, 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.320 I I wish I had a carriage or a big 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.879 house or my own car, but they didn't have like 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:01.720 shoved in their face, like look at all the nice, 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.040 shiny things we have that you never will or maybe 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:05.960 you could if you end up on the right TV show. 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:10.480 It's very Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Like yes, yes, 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.119 and then everything changes. But even in that allegory, like 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.480 a bunch of people have to die for that kid 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.480 to win the chocolate Factory, there's probably something to that. 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:26.359 But right this idea of wealth being like the end all, 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.720 be all goal of everyone, that's, yeah, you work hard, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.200 you make money, you go to college, you marry someone 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.359 with a decent job, you get a house, like this 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.320 whole American dream that we're supposed to strive for who 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:44.040 has never been available to everybody anyway, most of us really, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.120 that was just a way to keep us in line 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.760 and keep us work right, and just seeing the ostentatious 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:56.919 just sort of gilded garbage that like the Jeff Bezosis 0:19:57.600 --> 0:19:58.240 of the world and. 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.680 All the other right, Like I'm I'm on it, Like 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:05.520 Jeff Bezos started a company that was about books right 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:12.640 then turned into just goods. And he's sitting literally on 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:16.320 a rocket ship platform talking about thanks to the people 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:20.480 who work at Amazon and consume Amazon products, And you're like, 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:25.120 what what happened here? Do you know what I'm saying? 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.200 So there are money anymore? 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.879 Right, And so there is this thing where there have 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:35.159 always been wealthy people. There have always been, right the 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.000 quote unquote captains of industries, the Rockefellers in this, that 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:41.760 and the other thing. But you were not brought. It 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.480 was not shoved in your face. It was not made 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.639 to be entertainment in the way that it is. And 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.480 I think that we're kind of in a period where 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:55.359 I wonder if it will be entertaining five if it'll 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.960 be still be entertaining ten years from now, because I 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.560 tell you that. I look in the comment section now 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:04.680 of some of these some of these very ostentatious celebrities, 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.880 and I see what people write and I'm like, oh, 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.480 you were not writing that three years ago, right, like 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:13.480 you were not coming for so and so in that 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.520 way about being greedy and what are you giving back? 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:19.960 And you know, it's extract extra like you weren't saying that. 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:29.719 I think that we're at a very interesting period. And 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:31.960 I'll give you this last last question because I think 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.760 that we're at a very interesting period. The last time 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:37.240 we spoke, I said, you know, is this a moment 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.720 or is it a movement? And this kind of I 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.200 guess toss up space that we're in is going to 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:48.879 coincide with this next presidential election, and I'm kind of wondering, 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:53.080 you know, do you think that after these deals are 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:57.600 made and these strike subside, will there still be the 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.199 momentum of trying to create a better life and a 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:05.760 better society for you know, for all people, the majority 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:06.440 of us. 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.040 Honestly, I depending on what goes on with the next election, 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:11.560 I don't think anything is going to get that much 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:13.159 better for any of us, right, It's just going to 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:16.080 get different degrees of worse in terms of what the 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:19.280 government has to offer. So I think and I hope 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:20.920 that people are going to continue to look to the 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.639 labor movement and their unions and their you know, the 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.240 ways that they're able to organize to try and make 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:30.560 the best of a bad situation. Because we've it's become 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:33.600 very clear on many many levels, even to people who 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.640 might have been true believers four years ago, that they 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:40.400 don't really care about us and they're not looking out 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:44.400 for us. If they were, what have canceled student debt, 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.359 would have you know, actually put a little effort into 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.280 doing something about COVID, which is still killing people out here. 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.159 You know, like there's a million things that they could have, 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:57.560 should have would have done, but they didn't. And now 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.439 people are saying, oh, well, the uaw they just one 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:06.280 they're members like uh, like these huge raises like Kaiser Permanente, 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:08.959 when those works, like they got a bunch of protections, 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:13.119 Like I think even still are kind of the only 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:17.760 shot we have in terms of like immediate collective action 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:23.520 yielding immediate results. I mean, obviously, like the broader struggles 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:25.520 for liberation, We're gonna take a little bit, you know, 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:29.040 it's it's not gonna be instantaneous. But one thing about 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:32.400 unions I appreciate. I think that does appeal to focus, 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:34.720 that you can you get to see the fruits of 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:39.760 your labor like pretty quick, like once you get that contract, 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:42.120 once you sign on the dotted line, like your next 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:45.760 paycheck looks a little different. And that is something that yeah, 0:23:45.960 --> 0:23:50.639 only material that's really fires people up. And honestly, you 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:55.040 know it, we the these these uh strikes, we've been seeing, 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:56.680 the layright tap we've been seeing. I don't think it's 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:01.040 gonna stop, because there's always more union contra tracks that 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:05.320 are expiring. Yeah, I mean, Sean Fain came out here 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:07.960 and said, you know, they said their next contract to expire, 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:11.240 gave everyone a deadline, Like, I mean, what if we 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:15.840 did a general strike. You know, that's a whole other conversation, right, 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:17.840 but even just setting that just shows like, oh, we're 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:21.879 not We're not done. We're not. This is hopefully just 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:25.520 the beginning. And what happens with the election. I'm sure 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:28.280 that's gonna be a whole it's gonna give us all adjuta. 0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:31.879 It's gonna be a whole fucking thing. Nothing good, nothing 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:36.359 good is gonna happen. And I'm sure that the more 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:39.440