1 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKF Daily with Me 2 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: your Girl, Danielle Moody, recording from the Long Island Bunker 3 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: as we get ready to celebrate the holiday this week, folks, 4 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: I'm very excited because we decided that this week on 5 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: WOKAF was really largely going to be about the labor movement, 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: to be about workers fighting for their rights and fighting 7 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: for not just a decent wage, but a thriving one. 8 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: As I said in my interview earlier in the week 9 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: with Francesca Ramsey, it's really important that we are thoughtful 10 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: about the language that we use and the conversations and 11 00:00:54,560 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: the narrative that we have because outside of the one percent, folks, sure, 12 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: there are gradiations of workers and labor. We understood that 13 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: very plainly during the COVID nineteen pandemic, when the privilege 14 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: were able to stay inside and stay safe while the 15 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: essential workers, the ones that oftentimes make the least were 16 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: forced to be outside right with no protections, and recognizing 17 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 1: that a lot of what we are seeing now spawned 18 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: out of that time, a time when we were told 19 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: that in order to work, you need to be inside 20 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: of a cubicle eight ten hours a day, five days 21 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: a week. Well, lo and behold when that work had 22 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: to turn to remote work. Guess what didn't happen? The 23 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: folding of a bunch of companies, right, Guess what didn't happen, right, 24 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: the shareholders and CEOs not being able to make money? 25 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: They did doubly time over. You know, So what we 26 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: got the ability to have control over our own lives, 27 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: the ability to do both and right, take care of 28 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: our families, take care of ourselves. Why in fact holding 29 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: down a job? And so during this time, I think 30 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: that we are recognizing and in my conversation coming up 31 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: next with our friend labor rights advocate and author Kim Kelly, 32 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, we talk about whether or not this moment 33 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: that we have been in for the last year plus 34 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: is a moment or is it a movement? Right? Are 35 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: we going to see more industries striking to get the benefits, 36 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: to get the resources that they deserve? 37 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: Right? 38 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: We know that capitalism is a fucking lie and a scam. 39 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: It is the pyramid scheme to end all pyramid schemes. 40 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: But we know until it's done, we have to find 41 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: a way to operate inside of it that is healthy 42 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: for us. Right, that actual gives us the resources that 43 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: we need to live not just a decent life, but 44 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: to live a good life, one that allows us to 45 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: be able to not just survive, but to be able 46 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: to thrive. And so what does that look like. In 47 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: this conversation with our friend Kim Kelly, we look at 48 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: the scope of this year, the strikes that we've seen, 49 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: from healthcare workers to actors, to writers, to auto workers 50 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: and more, and discuss what we think about what we 51 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: have seen and whether this is truly the beginning of 52 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: a reorientation and a reimagining about how we see labor 53 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: moving forward. Coming up next, my conversation with Kim Kelly Folks. 54 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: I am always excited. I want to get the opportunity 55 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: to welcome back to the show Kim Kelly, who is 56 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: a freelance journalist, person who is the go to person 57 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: about labor, about workers, the author of Fight Like Hell, 58 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: The Untold History of American Labor. Whenever we talk, Caim, 59 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: I'll tell you, I get off the get off the call, 60 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: and I always feel like, Okay, we're like we're in this, 61 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: like we're doing this, like you know, like we can 62 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: do this. We can change how this society functions and 63 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: it is going to be a bit by bit, bite 64 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: by bite, you know, strike by strike type of situation. 65 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: But I want to get like your sense, now that 66 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: we're closing out the year where it has been historic 67 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways for workers across industries, how 68 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: you are feeling and what of the strikes has has 69 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: kind of resonated with you the most. 70 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: It's been really exciting. I mean, I think everyone is 71 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 2: pretty stoked about the UAW strike, the ensuing contract that 72 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 2: I think the workers are voting on right now. It 73 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: seems like it'll probably be a slam dunk, but you 74 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: never know. It's up to them. But I just think 75 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: so much of the dialogue and the enthusiasm that we've 76 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 2: seen kick up thanks to that strike, and of course 77 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: the ongoing seg after strike and the Pittsburgh Post Gazette strike, 78 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: and all of these strikes are happening, the walk out 79 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,799 Speaker 2: of pharmacy technicians, the work that the Union of Southern 80 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: Service Workers continues to do in the South. There's so 81 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: much going on, and it really seems like they're like 82 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: people have realized that there are ways to get involved 83 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 2: even if they don't currently work at a unionized workplace, 84 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: or they're not in an industry or a job title 85 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: that's able to unionize your traditional means. Yet, like people 86 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: are getting involved, and I think younger people especially, I 87 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: think there's a impulsive especially like older generations to kind 88 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: of wave away social media as something that met It's like, 89 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: you know, oh, the TikTok, like whatever those kids are doing, 90 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 2: the kids are educating and radicalizeding on TikTok and on Instagram, 91 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: on Twitter, well, you know. 92 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: It was yeah right, uh boom. 93 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: And one thing that has given me a lot of 94 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 2: hope too is seeing the way that rank and file 95 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: union members and some straight up and some unions and 96 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: some union councils have been rallying around the cause of 97 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 2: the Palestinian people Palestinian workers in a way that's caused 98 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: a lot of friction in the movement that I think 99 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: is it needs to be there. There's some tension there 100 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: that needs to kind of be pushed because I think 101 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: it's becoming clear that, you know, our elected union leadership 102 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: isn't always on the same page as the people they're 103 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: supposed to represent, So what do we do with that? 104 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 2: It's kind of you know, we were talking about the 105 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: upcoming elections. That's kind of that question at large, what 106 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: do you do when the will of the members or 107 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: the people does reflect the actions of their statements of 108 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: the yes in charge. Well, like you could do what 109 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: you know, and you know obviously not this current moment. 110 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: It took a few years to get here. But the 111 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: whole reason we have Sean Fain and this new energized 112 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 2: militant UAW is because rank and file workers with the 113 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: UAW united for I can't remember the acronym, but they 114 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: wont there. There's a group basically a group of reform 115 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 2: minded rank and file workers in the UAW pushed to 116 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: get this reform slet going. He's the first democratically elected 117 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 2: president of the uaw's history. Wow. Right, Like like as 118 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: what we saw at the Teamsters with Sean O'Brien, that 119 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: was because of a reform movement. The team sits for 120 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: a democratic union. Like we've seen that it is possible 121 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: to change leadership, to change priorities, to change political alignments. 122 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: And I really think this might be one of the 123 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: tipping points, Like we're going to see like a lot 124 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: of rank and file union members I see in and 125 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: spoken to are really pissed at the statements we're seeing 126 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: from the afl COO or from their union presidents or 127 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: and or are being you know, compelled to use their 128 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: labor to perpetuate this slaughter. And I think there's going 129 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: to be a reckoning in the next few years when 130 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: it comes to who's in charge of these unions, because 131 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: union leader terms don't last forever. 132 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: Let me let me ask you this too, because I 133 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: think that what has happened with kind of, like you said, 134 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: the the re education or the education in the first 135 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: place for people happening via social media, whether that is 136 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: TikTok or Instagram or the like about unions. Talk to 137 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: us about why unions kind of broke down in terms 138 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: of favor right, public favor public, the public being supportive 139 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: of unions. Unions had a big surge. We had the 140 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution, we had all of these factories, we have 141 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: all of these deaths and horrible things that are happening. 142 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: People begin to you know, to unionize right to get 143 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: things like a five day work week, to get things 144 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: like rid of things like child labor, to get you know, 145 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: benefits and safety measures put in place so that frankly, 146 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: they're able to do their jobs and not risk life 147 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: and limb literally, and so this happens, and then it's 148 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: as if the workers themselves turned on the very support 149 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 1: system that was put in place in order to make 150 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: sure that they would be okay. So I just want 151 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: you to be able to help us understand the why 152 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: that happened. And then yeah, and then the up and 153 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: the up and down because now we're back in an 154 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: up place where we're talking about unions in a way 155 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: that frankly, I don't think that we've talked about unions 156 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: and I've been in politics and policy for a while, 157 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 1: in like fifteen twenty years. 158 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been a big shift, like we are so back, 159 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: but I think a lot of it goes back to 160 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 2: what all went down in the eighties under the Reagan administration. 161 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 2: Like you can't pin everything terrible and a world on 162 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 2: that guy, but you can pin a lot, a lot 163 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: a lot of our current society and political problems go 164 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 2: right back to that motherfucker. So him breaking the pack 165 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 2: code strike and really encouraging this greed is good anti labor, 166 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: anti workers sentiment and showing corporations and bosses that, oh, 167 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 2: we can get away with not working with unians. We 168 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: can get away with busting strikes, we can get away 169 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: with hiring sabs. It was kind of this big shift, 170 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: and you add in all of the things that have 171 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: happened since then, whether it's de industrialization or offshoring, and 172 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: the rise of right to work laws, so called right 173 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: to work laws that Republicans have pushed all over the place, 174 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: the weakening of existing labor laws, the rise of corporate 175 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 2: media that is either explicitly anti labor or kind of 176 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: like you could tell they're just not interested in corporate labor. 177 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: I mean, people who have studied this and are much 178 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: smarter than may have really broken it down in a 179 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: lot of ways. But I feel like that's the vibe 180 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: that we're dealing with us, the tide we've been swimming 181 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: against because the labor would never went anywhere, just lost 182 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: a lot of power. But or at this moment where 183 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 2: I think the biggest change has been the availability of information, 184 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: because this is something even back in twenty fifteen when 185 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: I was organizing at my last workplace, our biggest hurdle 186 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: wasn't that people were anti union or that they had 187 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: ingested like a lot of anti union talking points, is 188 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: that they didn't know what a union was, what it 189 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 2: could do for them, or that they were even eligible 190 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: to join when and once we got past that hurdle, 191 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 2: we organized like five hundred people. Like that's how we 192 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 2: ended up here, Like I was, was I kind of 193 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: ended up here by accident? 194 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think that's something that. 195 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 2: Is really fueling this change is the fact that there 196 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: is so much more access to information pro union or 197 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: even just fair coverage of unions and what they do 198 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: and of what workers' rights could and should look like 199 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: the fact that we have labor reporters and publicate like 200 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: progressive publications like in These Times and Labor Notes and 201 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 2: even the Nation the Baffler places like that that are 202 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: really pouring resources energy into covering these movements. Even main 203 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 2: like mainstream mass corporate media has been covering the UAW 204 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: strikes like they were covering Strike Tober when it was happening, 205 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: like they're covering the variety of the actions that have happening. 206 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: It's there's been a shift. I think it's really just 207 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: people realizing, oh, we can do that, right, if we 208 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 2: do that, things might actually happen. 209 00:12:58,600 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: It happen. 210 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: I think it's been this kind of realignment of people's 211 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 2: expectations of thinking, Oh, okay, I don't have to go 212 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: full you know, Johnny paycheck, take this job and shove it. 213 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: I can stick around and make my job better. Huh. 214 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: You know, in all honesty, that's what all of this 215 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: is about, right, you know? It kind of flies in 216 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: the face of the sentiment that Republicans always try and 217 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: put out, which is that, honestly, the American people are lazy. 218 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: They don't want to work, they just want to hand out. Right. 219 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: The idea around unions is like, no, I do want 220 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: to work, but I want dignity and respect and a 221 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: wage where I can support myself and my family, right 222 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: like like, so it's this and and look at any 223 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: other I would say, industrialize greedy ask country Americans take 224 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: die with vacation days. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, 225 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: Americans literally go to their grave and could afford I 226 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: could have could could have afforded a month months off, 227 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: but didn't take their but didn't take their time off 228 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: because somehow we have been we have been forced into 229 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: this belief, this perverse idea that the more that we produce, 230 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: the better of a human that we are right and 231 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: so if you and so it's just like this, I 232 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: feel like unions fly in the face of that where 233 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: it's just like, no, I want to work. I just 234 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: I want to be able to like not just be 235 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: working to survive, like I'd actually like a life. 236 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 2: I think that's such a huge part of it. Like 237 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: we've we've been hoodwinked, we've been what that. Yeah, yeah, 238 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: the harder you work, the better person you are, like that, 239 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: like vintage Puritan Protestant work ethic. We've been. We've been 240 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: we've internalized or been forced to internalize. And that that 241 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: like very American individualistic sort of character, sort of quality 242 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: that is so celebrated, you know, the Horatio Algurs, the 243 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 2: Great Man there, all of the bullshit that makes us 244 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: more isolated and more like islands into ourselves. And that 245 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: is not how human beings are meant to operate. We're 246 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: a collective species, communal species, like we do best when 247 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 2: we're in groups like gudea things, you know, And that's 248 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 2: I think that's a big crireless shift too, Like this 249 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: shift from people thinking how am I going to get 250 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: mine and take care of my family? To oh, how 251 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: are we going to take care of everyone? At this workplace. 252 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: How are we going to take care of everyone in 253 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: our union? How are we going to take care of 254 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: the whole working class? And I do even though he's 255 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: not you know, he's not covering himself with glory right now, 256 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: I do have to kind of point back to the 257 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders campaigns for president with that ninety nine percent idea, 258 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: that post occupy the ninety nine percent, like it's us 259 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: against them idea. I think for a lot of folks, 260 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: especially in like I think our generation and maybe even 261 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: a little younger, that was kind of one of the 262 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: first political awakenings we had of like, oh, like us, 263 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: we're in this protest, We're in this occupation, We're in 264 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: this group versus the bad guys. Yeah. Yeah, we're not 265 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: wanting what they have, We're wanting what we deserve. And 266 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: I think that shift is still being felt. You know, 267 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: it's a lot of different factors. You know. 268 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: It's so interesting too because I honestly, and you may 269 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: laugh at this, I believe that the advent of reality 270 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: TV has a lot to do with that. I think that, Yeah, 271 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: I think that this obsession with wealth and with consumption 272 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: and materialism had people believe that they were just one experience, 273 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: one check, one lottery ticket away from living this life. 274 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: So they coveted right in this very jealous minded space. 275 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: But then all of a sudden, the chasm right between 276 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: my super sweet sixteen and now a Kim Kardashian being 277 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: a billionaire and having her own jet, being part of 278 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: being part of the machinery that built that, with our viewership, 279 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: with our you know, with our desire to like peek 280 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: inside of that world. And I think that a lot 281 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: of we've watched this and we've seen like, wait a minute, 282 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: how did they get even more money than what we 283 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: started out watching ten fifteen years ago? Like I'm still 284 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: in the same apartment watching this show, but they but 285 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: there are they own an eyelid? 286 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: Now? 287 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: How do fuck that happen? You know what I'm saying. 288 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: So I feel I do, I feel like that kind 289 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: of voyeurism into well, I mean, you've seen some of 290 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: these real house spilee people get caught up with tax 291 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: evation and all of these things, grifting off of this 292 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: idea that they have more, you know, than they actually have. 293 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: And so I just I'm just curious, like how you 294 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: think that pop culture and our American obsession with wealth 295 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: has also played a part into this big awakening where 296 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: we're realizing that the ninety nine percent of us are 297 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: still in the same place and this one percent has 298 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: gotten like went from millionaires to billionaires in that same time. 299 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 2: That's so interesting to think about. Like, so if you 300 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 2: feel like before the advent of mass media, nobody really 301 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 2: knew what the really rich people were up to or 302 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: what they had, Yeah, no, it could kind of like, oh, 303 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: I I wish I had a carriage or a big 304 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 2: house or my own car, but they didn't have like 305 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: shoved in their face, like look at all the nice, 306 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: shiny things we have that you never will or maybe 307 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 2: you could if you end up on the right TV show. 308 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 2: It's very Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Like yes, yes, 309 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 2: and then everything changes. But even in that allegory, like 310 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 2: a bunch of people have to die for that kid 311 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 2: to win the chocolate Factory, there's probably something to that. 312 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 2: But right this idea of wealth being like the end all, 313 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 2: be all goal of everyone, that's, yeah, you work hard, 314 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: you make money, you go to college, you marry someone 315 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 2: with a decent job, you get a house, like this 316 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: whole American dream that we're supposed to strive for who 317 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: has never been available to everybody anyway, most of us really, 318 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 2: that was just a way to keep us in line 319 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: and keep us work right, and just seeing the ostentatious 320 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 2: just sort of gilded garbage that like the Jeff Bezosis 321 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: of the world and. 322 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: All the other right, Like I'm I'm on it, Like 323 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos started a company that was about books right 324 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: then turned into just goods. And he's sitting literally on 325 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: a rocket ship platform talking about thanks to the people 326 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: who work at Amazon and consume Amazon products, And you're like, 327 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: what what happened here? Do you know what I'm saying? 328 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: So there are money anymore? 329 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: Right, And so there is this thing where there have 330 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: always been wealthy people. There have always been, right the 331 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: quote unquote captains of industries, the Rockefellers in this, that 332 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: and the other thing. But you were not brought. It 333 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: was not shoved in your face. It was not made 334 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: to be entertainment in the way that it is. And 335 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: I think that we're kind of in a period where 336 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: I wonder if it will be entertaining five if it'll 337 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: be still be entertaining ten years from now, because I 338 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: tell you that. I look in the comment section now 339 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: of some of these some of these very ostentatious celebrities, 340 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: and I see what people write and I'm like, oh, 341 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: you were not writing that three years ago, right, like 342 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: you were not coming for so and so in that 343 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: way about being greedy and what are you giving back? 344 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: And you know, it's extract extra like you weren't saying that. 345 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,719 Speaker 1: I think that we're at a very interesting period. And 346 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: I'll give you this last last question because I think 347 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: that we're at a very interesting period. The last time 348 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: we spoke, I said, you know, is this a moment 349 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: or is it a movement? And this kind of I 350 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: guess toss up space that we're in is going to 351 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: coincide with this next presidential election, and I'm kind of wondering, 352 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, do you think that after these deals are 353 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: made and these strike subside, will there still be the 354 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: momentum of trying to create a better life and a 355 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: better society for you know, for all people, the majority 356 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: of us. 357 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: Honestly, I depending on what goes on with the next election, 358 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: I don't think anything is going to get that much 359 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 2: better for any of us, right, It's just going to 360 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: get different degrees of worse in terms of what the 361 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 2: government has to offer. So I think and I hope 362 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 2: that people are going to continue to look to the 363 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: labor movement and their unions and their you know, the 364 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: ways that they're able to organize to try and make 365 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: the best of a bad situation. Because we've it's become 366 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 2: very clear on many many levels, even to people who 367 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 2: might have been true believers four years ago, that they 368 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 2: don't really care about us and they're not looking out 369 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 2: for us. If they were, what have canceled student debt, 370 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 2: would have you know, actually put a little effort into 371 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: doing something about COVID, which is still killing people out here. 372 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 2: You know, like there's a million things that they could have, 373 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: should have would have done, but they didn't. And now 374 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 2: people are saying, oh, well, the uaw they just one 375 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: they're members like uh, like these huge raises like Kaiser Permanente, 376 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,959 Speaker 2: when those works, like they got a bunch of protections, 377 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: Like I think even still are kind of the only 378 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 2: shot we have in terms of like immediate collective action 379 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: yielding immediate results. I mean, obviously, like the broader struggles 380 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 2: for liberation, We're gonna take a little bit, you know, 381 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 2: it's it's not gonna be instantaneous. But one thing about 382 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 2: unions I appreciate. I think that does appeal to focus, 383 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: that you can you get to see the fruits of 384 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: your labor like pretty quick, like once you get that contract, 385 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 2: once you sign on the dotted line, like your next 386 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 2: paycheck looks a little different. And that is something that yeah, 387 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 2: only material that's really fires people up. And honestly, you 388 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: know it, we the these these uh strikes, we've been seeing, 389 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 2: the layright tap we've been seeing. I don't think it's 390 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: gonna stop, because there's always more union contra tracks that 391 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: are expiring. Yeah, I mean, Sean Fain came out here 392 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: and said, you know, they said their next contract to expire, 393 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 2: gave everyone a deadline, Like, I mean, what if we 394 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: did a general strike. You know, that's a whole other conversation, right, 395 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: but even just setting that just shows like, oh, we're 396 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 2: not We're not done. We're not. This is hopefully just 397 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: the beginning. And what happens with the election. I'm sure 398 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 2: that's gonna be a whole it's gonna give us all adjuta. 399 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 2: It's gonna be a whole fucking thing. Nothing good, nothing 400 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 2: good is gonna happen. And I'm sure that the more 401 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: corporatized wing of the organized labor movement is going to 402 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 2: be all riding with Biden and all of that and 403 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: try and get all their members to vote, just do 404 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: all the same shit that they waste our membership money 405 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 2: on every four years. But really, I think, I really 406 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 2: hope people hold on to this idea that the only 407 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 2: people we could really depend on ourselves and our neighbors, 408 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: our co workers, people weren't communi with and that's how 409 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 2: it's always been, you know. All the rest of it 410 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 2: is just noise. 411 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred per Kim Kelly, every time that you 412 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: joined wok F, I'm just I'm I'm always so pleased 413 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: and grateful for your insights and I can't wait to 414 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: just continue the conversation. 415 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me and let me 416 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: go and let me swear a little. 417 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: Bit because all the time these motherfuckers appreciate you. That 418 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: is it for me today, dear friends on wok F. 419 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: As always, power to the people and to all the people. Power, 420 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.