WEBVTT - Bouncing Back with Laurie Santos 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.840 I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question, you know, 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:11.440 having a podcast on happiness, teaching a whole classed Ivy 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.160 League students, generation after generation. Yeah, I mean, I think 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:18.320 that we get happiness wrong. Happiness, that feeling of joy 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:22.000 or contentment that we all seem to crave can also 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:26.400 seem totally unattainable in this day and age. In fact, 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:31.040 maybe we need to replace the word happiness altogether. True 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:35.800 flourishing is taking on challenges, embracing failure, you know, navigating 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:38.840 these negative emotions that might be normative. And so I think, 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:40.920 you know, it would be better to have a different word, 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:43.800 But in some ways we're stuck with happiness. Doctor Laurie 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:48.040 Santos is a cognitive scientist who's been studying happiness in 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.760 the lab as well as through the class she teaches 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:54.440 at Yale. But she's the first to admit even she 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.440 isn't happy all the time. Some of us are kind 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:59.360 of genetically lucky to have a little bit of a 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.360 predisposition and happiness. I'm probably the opposite. I think I 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:06.199 was born on a rainy like loudry mixed kind of day. 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.839 So what do we need to understand about happiness, Why 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.280 is it so difficult to come by? And why is 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:21.640 true happiness such freaking hard work. By the way, if 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.080 you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.360 of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.560 and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.600 Up Call by going to Katiecurrek dot com. Are you 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.440 or a loved one battling cancer? I'm passionate about raising 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.319 awareness about the importance of early detection and for patients 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:47.440 and their caregivers to fully understand all available treatment options, 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:51.800 especially those that have meaningful impact to extending survival and 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.440 improving quality of life. You know, too often the length 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.560 of treatment, recovery period, and debilitating side effects can be 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.960 difficult to cope with. 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Ditto, Ditto. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:56.320 Let's start with the basics. What exactly is happiness? We 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.359 do a very long time answering that, kat So. Social 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:01.840 scientists tend to think of happiness as being happy in 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.400 your life and being happy with your life. So being 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:06.399 happy in your life is like you've just got lots 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.360 of positive emotions. There's like joy and smiling and laughter 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.680 as opposed to kind of negative emotions like sadness, anger 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:14.960 and saying. It's not saying you have no negative emotions, 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.959 it's just that the ratio is pretty good. That's being 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.280 happy in your life. But being happy with your life 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:22.480 is how you think about your life. Is the answer 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.560 to your question, like all things considered, how satisfied are 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:27.880 you with your life? And if you say yes, then 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.680 that's pretty good. And I love this definition because you know, 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:32.520 we all know that there are times that those two 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.760 things dissociate, right that you know you're doing something that's 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.000 making you incredibly satisfied with your life. You know, maybe 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:39.960 you have a new baby or a new job, but 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:41.680 it's hard, you know, in your life there's a lot 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:43.839 of stress and things like that. And I think we've 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:45.840 all met people, you especially being you know, with the 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.680 rich and famous folks where no no in their life, 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.520 like you know, you're flying first class and great food, 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:55.640 but with your life there's a real sense of emptiness 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.800 and a lack of meaning. And so we have these 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.400 misconceptions when it comes to the things that make guess happy. 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.960 Are we using the wrong word? Should it be contentment? 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.720 Should it be fulfillment? I think the Greeks, you know, 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:07.560 and the ancients as usual, had it right. You know, 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.320 they talked about you diamondia flourishing, and that I think 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.680 would be a better word, because to have true flourishing, 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.159 it's not like you're happy all the time. Like true 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:19.520 flourishing isn't toxic positivity where you're like smiling like some 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:21.600 terrible yellow emojing where you're like, oh my gosh, I'm 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:23.240 happy all the time. And so what I try to 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.560 do is to explain to folks that true happiness allows 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.080 for the normal kinds of spots where you're not going 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.000 to feel great, like, that's typical, that's normal, that's what 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.320 you need for a good, ultimately happy life. But people 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:41.040 probably should think about the word flourishing or fulfillment, contentment. 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:45.320 It just seems much more stable. Happiness seems like at 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:50.440 the high end of the emotional scale, right, and that's 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.359 unattainable because nobody's happy all the time. Yeah. My colleague 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:56.680 Dan Gilbert, professor at Harvard, who comes a lot on 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.200 my podcast, Dan's vond of saying that you know, happily 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.719 ever after only exists if you have like three minutes 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.280 left to live, like, it's just not a destination. And 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.400 I think that's another thing we get wrong. We think 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:08.919 I'm going to do something and get there. You know, 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:10.880 I'll get married and I will be happy. Or I'll 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:12.960 get this new raise and I will be happy. Or 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:15.120 you know, my college students, I'll get into the perfect 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:17.440 medical school or get the perfect rates and I will 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.320 be happy. And that's just not how it works. My 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:22.359 late husband used to say that I was born on 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.400 a sunny day, which I thought was such a nice compliment, 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.200 and it made me wonder if some people are hardwired 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:34.400 for happiness. Is there a happiness set point that varies 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:39.200 from person to person, from biology to biology. Yeah, there's 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.240 some evidence that that might be at least partly the case. 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.760 And the evidence comes from these studies on what's called heritability. Right, 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:51.640 what is it called heritability? It's just not irritability irritability. Heritability, 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.200 which is this like big word of saying, you know, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.920 how much of the variance that we see in the population. 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.000 You know, some people are happy, not so happy. How 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.000 much of that is do to your biology? How much 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:04.080 of that is due to kind of how you grow up? Right? 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.200 And the way we test heritability is to look at twins. Right, 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:10.560 Some twins are identical. That means they're genetically exactly the same, 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.159 the same way, raise the same way. Right. Some are fraternal, 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.360 which means they're genetically different, Like they're just as similar 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:21.000 as regular brothers and sisters. And so if happiness is 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:24.040 really built in, then identical twins should be much more 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.240 similar in their happiness level than regular brothers and sisters. 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:29.240 Tons of studies have looked at this, and what you 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.760 find is that's true, but a little bit. Heritability estimates 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.479 are at about thirty percent, and that's like, you know, 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.599 it's there, but scientifically speaking, it's kind of small. What 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.200 does that mean? It means there's something to be said for, 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.240 you know, being born on a sunny day. Some of 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.320 us are kind of genetically lucky to have a little 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.800 bit of a predisposition to happiness, but it's not as 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.640 much as we, I think assume. So it sounds like 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.720 nurture is more important than nature when it comes to happiness. 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.400 That's exactly right, and I think it's important not to 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.479 discount nature, right. There are some people who have a 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.280 harder than others because they've got to put more work in, 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.200 but everybody can put the right work in to change things. Well, 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.880 I wanted to ask you what sets you up for happiness? 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:13.600 I mean, is it a secure home, life, loving parents, 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:21.200 financial security, positive affirmation, success, and however you define it. 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:26.320 I feel like I'm really lucky, honestly, Laurie, in all 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.880 those categories. I think of people who have parents who 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:35.600 didn't give them unconditional love and how that really kind 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.920 of reverberates throughout their lives. Yeah, I mean, obviously those 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.880 things have an impact, right. You know, trauma, which is 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.000 the kind of thing you're talking about right where parents, 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.800 you know, your abusive parents or with whole scene or 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.760 exactly or you know, they could even be affluent, you know, 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.160 successful parents, just very distant or really harsh, right, I 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.000 mean we all kind of grow up with different levels 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.800 of that, and you can look at levels are pretty extreme, 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:02.640 and scientists do that, right. This is a lot of 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.000 the work on trauma and what's often called post traumatic 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.880 stress disorder. You many of us have heard about that, right, 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:09.960 And it comes from the fact that when you experience 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.800 trauma sometimes that can have a longstanding effect. But even 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.920 though you know post traumatic stress disorder PTSD gets a 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.720 lot of airtime, scientists have also looked at what you 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.120 might consider the opposite, which is called post traumatic growth. Right, 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.960 you go through an awful, terrible incident that you never 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.960 would have wished on yourself or anyone else, and some 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.720 good comes from that. You feel like you come out stronger, 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.000 you feel like you come out more resilient, you feel 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.439 like you come out more socially connected to the people 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.000 you really care about. And this is what's called post 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.320 traumatic growth. And I'm kind of curious. I mean, you know, 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.120 you and I are talking after you've been so helpfully 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.880 public about your breast cancer diagnosis. That could be a 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.880 trauma that leads to PTSD. You know, individuals who experience 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.240 cancer diagnosis and have to go through the process, you know, 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.440 terrible and awfully traumatic, but you kind of resonate with that, 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.200 this idea of the post traumatic growth a bit. I mean, 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.760 I think because I've had so much experience witnessing cancer 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.720 much more severely in both my late husband and my 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:14.040 sister who also passed away, and I became so knowledgeable 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:19.079 about cancer. I have a very really healthy and solid 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:25.040 understanding about my particular situation, and instead of being traumatized, 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:30.719 it actually increased my gratitude because I know, unlike them, 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:35.040 both my husband and sister were diagnosed with stage four cancer. 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:40.480 Mine was discovered early, when it's not only treatable but curable, 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:46.680 and so if anything, it wasn't traumatic. It was actually 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:52.440 weirdly life affirming. It was a death sentence for my 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.520 husband and my sister when they were diagnosed, and the 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.240 fact that it was twenty twenty two, the fact that 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:05.679 science has really progressed, I felt grateful. And so this 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:07.920 is what we hear a lot, both with kind of 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.920 diagnoses like yours, but even cases where individuals find out 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.440 they have a terminal situation or things that you couldn't 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:15.960 even imagine. You're There are accounts of parents who've lost 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.600 young children who obviously, you know, the most traumatic thing 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.160 any parent could imagine. You know, obviously they're not happy 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:24.000 about it, they wouldn't wish it again, but they'll say 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:28.720 on mass more good things came of it than I expected, right, 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.240 And that is a profound thing about human psychology and 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.480 human nature. The worst thing possible that we could ever 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.280 imagine happens, and we say there are parts of this 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.760 at least that I'm grateful for, or there's parts of 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.199 this that I wouldn't change. I've grown from this. This 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.800 is one of the biggest mistakes that we make about happiness. 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.480 We think it's only our circumstances. If things go well, 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:50.920 I'll be great, and God forbid things go badly. But 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.160 in practice, when these things actually happen to people were 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.360 much more resilient, and we often take much more meaning 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.160 and purpose from those events than we often expect. I 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:05.240 think my resilience you mentioned going public, just as I 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.400 try to spread awareness and educate people about calling cancer 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.679 prevention and encourage them to get colonoscopies, and got one 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:18.000 on television myself, I knew that by being a public 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.080 figure and talking about it, I have the potential to 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:26.120 actually save lives. And so for me translating it into 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.720 I don't mean to sound cheesy, but some form of service, 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:36.360 it actually is very grounding and satisfying and fulfilling for me. 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.679 And that's what I think. Sometimes we get wrong about happiness. 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.640 I think resilious it's finding strength with them. So sometimes 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.720 we are in a situation that we're unprepared for and 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.360 you find yourself digging deeper into something that you didn't 0:11:54.360 --> 0:12:05.640 even know you possessed more after the break. I'm an 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.839 artist in New York City, so when I'm creating or discovering, 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:11.720 that's where I find my happiness usually most of the time. 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:14.959 So happiness, you can try and find it, you can 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.280 try to inspire it. I also think you got to 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.360 give energy to get energy, So do that you can 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:24.280 find a lot of happiness. We're back with Lorie Santos. 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:31.120 All this focus on quote unquote self care, which I 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.160 think to a certain extent, we need to focus and 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.760 take care of ourselves. And the oxygen mask and all 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.480 that jazz. On the other hand, it seems like we 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.160 have become so self focused that we're missing the point 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:49.320 about serving others, being kind to others. Those things are 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.760 proven to increase your happiness, right, Lorie. Yeah, I mean 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.000 one of the biggest cross cultural universals in happiness science 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.320 right now is that doing nice things for other people 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:02.040 makes you happier. If you look at people who are 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.440 controlled for the level of income they have, people who 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.720 donate more of their money to charity are happier. People 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.160 who just tend to just be more self focused are 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.160 less happy than the people who are out there doing 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.679 stuff for other people. And even if you force people 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.240 to do nice stuff for others, they wind up feeling happier. 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.640 And do you think this whole emphasis on self care 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:25.520 and wellness has had the adverse effect in some ways? 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.599 Have you looked at that? Yeah? Definitely. It's a relatively 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.400 new phenomenon, isn't it. I mean I feel like sort 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:36.000 of the self care wellness industry has really blossomed and 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:38.960 just the last five years. Yeah, I think it's problematic 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.560 in two ways. Again, One is this focus on the self, right, 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:43.720 you know, me, me me, when again, all the data 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.360 suggest that doing for others would be better. I think 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:48.680 another problem is it like reflects this notion that we 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.000 have that like our circumstances matter for happiness. Right, if 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:53.760 I could just like have it be you know, bubble 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.319 bats and rainbows and first class flights, then my life 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:58.680 would be great. And it's really missing out on the 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.800 things that can actually matter for our happiness. Were in 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.079 some ways even just a simple act of spending our money, 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.719 We're doing it wrong. Spending on things that we think 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:08.400 are going to make us feel good, I think aren't 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.240 going to bring us joy, and they might not bring 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.560 us the joy we think. We're in New York City, 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:18.160 the epicenter of type A strivers, right, and I think 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:22.440 if there's one thing that has hurt my happiness quotient, 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:28.360 if you will, is always striving, because once you get something, 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:30.680 it's like, Okay, what am I going to do next? 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:32.600 Where am I going to go? How am I going 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:37.560 to achieve something? More? Talk about how these type A 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:42.720 kind of super driven people, because I'm transitioning to you 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.360 your Yale class where you at them in droves, how 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.920 that impacts your happiness. I mean, it's sometimes funny to 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:52.320 people when they hear I teach this class unhappiness to 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:56.000 Yale students, because the lay person's assumption is like Yale 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.520 students haven't made they're nineteen, you know, many of them 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.400 are wealthy or at least well connect. Did yet you 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.840 know one fourth of them decided to take a class 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.840 on happiness. What year did you start teaching it? First? 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.520 In twenty eighteen, and it was It became the largest 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.200 class ever in Yale's history, and one quarter of the 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.400 students enrolled, right, And I ken that tells you that 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:17.440 these you know type A, you know, very driven Yale 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.200 students are voting with their feet. They've especially at Yale, 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:22.640 they've gotten everything they've wanted. You know, probably since these 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.760 kids were twelve years old, they dreamed of getting into 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.440 an Ivy League school, and now they're there and it's 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.960 still not doing what they expect, which only proves like 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:34.360 all these things that we talked about are not necessarily 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:38.160 the key. What's missing for them? Yeah, I mean it's 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.800 often the things that they are having an opportunity cost 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.800 on because they're so driven at their academics. It's simple 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.320 things like sleep and taking care of their physical health. 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:48.880 It's often social connection. Right. These are students who are 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:50.960 working on homework into the night. They're not getting the 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.320 same social connection that you expect, And honestly, it's just 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.520 having this kind of mistaken idea that more and more 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.880 and more is going to be good. Right. It's not 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.920 stopic to kind of you smell the roses and reflect 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.400 on the accomplishments you've gotten, because they're thinking about what 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:06.800 grades are going to make, and how are they going 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:08.520 to get into a good law school, and how are 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.400 they going to get that job at Goldman Sachs or 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:16.000 you know, all those things that I would imagine detract 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.640 from just being present and enjoying the moment exactly. There's 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.000 work on what's known as journey mindset, right, which is 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:24.920 this idea that you're not kind of going for the 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.080 next thing, you're not looking at what you're arriving towards. 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:28.960 The goal is not then it's not law school or 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.600 Goldman Sacks, we're even getting into Yale. It's kind of 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.240 what you're going to learn and get along the way. 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.720 It's really being present across that, and I think that 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.880 we've raised, honestly, not just my Yale students, but a 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:41.240 generation of young people that have dropped the journey mindset right. 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.760 They are careerists from as early as we can detect, 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.040 and that means that they're just going to jump to 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:52.200 the next accolade. How can we tamp down this tremendous 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.880 pressure that's really detracting from being a happy, whole person. 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.240 You imagine if Yale and Harvard and Stafford, all big 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.240 schools got together, like a nuclear d escalation, and we 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.960 all said, you know what, here the minimum standards you 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:07.960 need to be a good Yale student. Once you meet 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.400 this minimum standard, you go into a lottery and you'll 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.320 might get in or you might not. I think this 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.240 would be first of all, I think you'd be accurate, 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.880 But I think it would also allow students to see that, like, 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.320 you know, you don't have to keep hustling, and I 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.199 think the hustle starts earlier and earlier. I think you 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.480 know what you said is correct. I think parents really 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:26.960 have a role to kind of scale this back. And 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:28.960 I think you know, it can sometimes be really tough 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.520 for parents because they obviously want what's best for their kids. 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.320 You know, if there's a kind of accolade out there 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.320 that your child doesn't have, it so easy to kind 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:37.600 of want them to strive for it. I think working 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:39.680 with your kids to kind of back them up, talk 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:41.920 to them about what they're learning along the journey, make 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:43.960 it clear that you're going to love them no matter what, 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.080 and don't push them just because you want that Yale 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.240 sticker on the back of your car. You can buy 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.920 one even if your kid doesn't go to Yale. Dirty. So, 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.560 I'm curious what you heard from your students. You talked 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.760 to so many of these kids. I mean, you had 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:02.920 a whole case study every semester. What did they talk 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.359 about and why were they taking your class? There's lots 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:08.879 of evidence that this generation, and this is true at 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.480 Yell too, is just facing the biggest mental health crisis 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:13.480 that we've seen in the history of the human species. Like, 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.119 right now, there's race of depression nationally at colleges are 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.760 at levels like forty percent of students report being too 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.360 depressed to function most days. Over sixty percent say they're 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:25.359 overwhelmingly anxious. More than one in ten has seriously considered suicide. 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:27.800 So if you're looking at a group of ten college students, 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.399 one of them might be contemplating taking their own life, right, Like, 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.240 that's really how bad the mental health situation has gone 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.120 on campus. But that doesn't even tell you what you're 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.639 just seeing in the low grade kind of stress and 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.280 disappointment these students are facing. You know, I'll run into 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:42.840 a student in the courtyard and be like, hey, how's 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:44.440 it going, And they'd be like, oh, if I could 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.360 only get to mid terms or if I could only 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.040 fast forward to the summer to get out of this. 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.159 And I would have kind of two reactions to that 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.359 of like what college is so precious since so short, 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.680 Like how can you be fast forwarding this? But then 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:57.680 my other reactions like oh, yeah, we could only get 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.920 to mid terms, you know. So I was like realizing like, wow, 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.840 you know, these are misconceptions that I was having too. 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:04.879 You know, even though it was so acute in my 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.560 students that kind of overwhelm and stress they were facing, 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:09.920 I kind of saw it in myself too. You know. 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.440 I'm worried that we weren't being good mentors for them 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:14.480 to help them out of this. You know. I guess 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.720 maybe because I'm I'm a big fan of self flagellation, 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:23.120 but I do wonder if people of my generation parents 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:30.080 fucked up well it's hay, you know, yeah, yeah, blah blah, 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:34.520 And I wonder I wonder if my generation style of 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:40.040 parenting has contributed to this, because you know that everybody 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:45.160 gets a trophy. You have to fix things for your kids. 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:49.520 You can't have them suffer because it's too painful for you. 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:53.640 You can't have them be disappointed. And are the chickens 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.480 coming home to roost? I think so, although I think 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:00.119 there's also lots of evidence that, you know, society, a 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.480 lot of these structures changed, right. You know, the last 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:04.800 twenty years were also the time when the news was 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.560 talking a lot about stranger danger. You know, you wouldn't 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.320 be seen as a good parent unless you were trying 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.440 to protect your children. Again, I think institutions like mine, 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:16.000 you know, like focused on meritocracy in a way that's great. 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.399 You know, anyone can get into Yale now, anyone can 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.320 get into you. Oh why aren't you giving your child 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.719 the resources they need to do that? And I think 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.200 that that focus on higher education in these next steps 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:29.240 made it so that failure seemed scary. But I think 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.600 that that did mean that the kids today are growing 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.600 up with different kinds of norms when it comes to failures, 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.320 different kinds of norms when it comes to parental involvement. 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:39.760 Different kinds of norms when it comes to what they're 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.240 expected to know, just at different ages. We have college 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.280 students who have never used an alarm clock. Their parents 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.520 are their alarm clock. They call, you know, to make 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.320 sure their child gets up in the morning, you know, 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:55.480 at nineteen twenty one years old. Lily from New York. 0:20:55.600 --> 0:21:00.640 I'm a teacher. I think the pandemic really affected kids negatively, 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.240 and they're having a really hard time figuring out how 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.359 to socialize in the way that we did when we 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:10.119 were kids, when life was quote unquote normal. So I 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:14.440 think the socializing, the lack of social skills is we're 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:19.320 finding kids like really inverting and struggling to reach out 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:28.320 to people. We'll be right back. There's things within your 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.160 control and there's things outside, and focus on those things 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.960 that are within your control and you'll do better and 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:40.800