1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: Welcome back. We're talking about Roy Cone. I don't know 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: owl's to lead it to this. I'm Robert Evans Podcast, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: Bad People talk about Him. This is part two, Roy Cone, 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: He suck. My guest today is Joel Monique. Joel Hi. Yes, 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm eager to more learn more about Roy 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: Cone and the terribleness that he inflicted on our country. Yeah, 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: he is. He He inflicted nothing but pain. Um, and 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: that's good for him, I guess. So when we last 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: left our dear friend Roy he had promised to wreck 10 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: the army. Now, I don't know if you're aware of this, 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: but Americans today are broadly fond of the army, and 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: since the President of the United States was in the 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, a retired general declaring a desire to destroy 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: the branch he served with was not a great long 15 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: term career move. Like, broadly speaking, Americans are positively inclined 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: towards the army. UH. In the nineteen fifties, it was 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: like a universal thing, right, like pretty pretty close to it. UM. 18 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, McCarthy and Cohn had made a tactical error 19 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 1: in deciding that they were going to destroy the army. 20 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: UM because the Army was for the Bridges. They were like, 21 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: we could do anything. Yeah, it's like the Beatles declaring 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: they're bigger than Jesus, except for the Beatles. Actually, we're 23 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: bigger than Jesus. Um statistical thing, yeah, statistical facts. Yeah. 24 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: So Americans had actually been pretty mixed on McCarthy and 25 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: his tactics In the years leading up to the Army trial. 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: Journalists and intellectuals had sharply criticized what seemed to be 27 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: and was a thoroughly undemocratic thing. Eisenhower himself had called 28 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: McCarthy ms predecessor the House Unamerican Activities Community, the most 29 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: Unamerican thing in the country. Many in the nation were 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: thus baffled when Ike let Senator McCarthy go on for 31 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: years without serious opposition, even by the low standards of 32 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: US presidents, Eisenhower is proba probably in like like the 33 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: upper quarter or so of of of our presidents. And 34 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: again he did a lot of horrible things, because presidents 35 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: are a bad thing to have. UM. One of the 36 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: number of great black marks against his name, maybe even 37 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: the greatest, although you know we also have Korea. UM, 38 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: is that through his silence he allowed McCarthyism to fester 39 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: and continue. Some scholars claim his neglect was intentional and 40 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: indirect approach. He used to subtly stymy the Senator ike, 41 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: they claim secretly leveraged his influence to modestly obstruct the 42 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: Red and Lavender scare. C. D. Jackson, and Eisenhower's speechwriter, 43 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: tried to convince his boss to take action. He later 44 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: claimed the President read my text with great irritation, slammed 45 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: it back at me, and said he would not refer 46 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: to McCarthy personally. I will not get into the gutter 47 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: with that guy, And I think the defenses of Eisenhower 48 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: here are bullshit. The only way to defeat a cancer 49 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: like McCarthy ism, which is based on bigotry and fear, 50 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: would have been for the most admired man in the 51 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: country to stand up and call it what it was. 52 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: The reality of the situation is that Senator McCarthy he 53 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: was a Republican, and so was Dwight D. Eisenhower. Crushing 54 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: McCarthy's witch hunt would have cost political capital, and he 55 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 1: needed party unity to accomplish things that meant more to 56 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: him than the suffering of tens of thousands of citizens 57 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: in short, the presidents not such a good thing to 58 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: have kill the two party system. It's killing us mhm h, 59 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: literally destroying us. Yeah, it's such a problem. Not to 60 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: be too selacious, but do you think they also had 61 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: blackmail on him on Eisenhower? I doubt it. I honestly 62 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: think this is perfectly explicable from Eisenhower just not wanting 63 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: to deal with something that would have been nasty like 64 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: he had politically, like he had ship he wanted to 65 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: do UM, and he didn't really care if gay people 66 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: and leftists were being harassed UM and if some innocent 67 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: like not innocent, because the gays and the leftist were innocent, 68 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: but if some people who were neither of those things 69 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: got mistakenly drawn into two he just didn't care because 70 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: it was more important for him to do the things 71 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: that he wanted to do with the political capital that 72 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: he had. UM. So he just didn't do anything. He 73 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: didn't He knew it was the wrong thing what I 74 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: McCarthy was doing, and he clearly disliked McCarthy, but he 75 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: didn't care to stop it because that would have meant 76 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: sacrificing something else he wanted, you know, because again, good 77 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: people don't become the president, and Eisenhower is in this 78 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: period of time about the best person we get as president. 79 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: Still not a very good man. Let's look at the lineage. 80 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: Not much changed. Not much has changed. We had one 81 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: moderately good person be president and he was not a 82 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: good president. Sorry carter Um. So the whole hellish circus 83 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: finally met its end in the spring of nineteen fifty four. 84 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: Is the Army Trial drew to a close with a 85 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: cross examination of a young lawyer for the Army. Now, 86 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: this man was a fresh faced, earnest young person serving 87 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: in uniform. He was the kind of person Americans love. Right, 88 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: You've got this like young educated army man, like sitting 89 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: like handsome, sitting on in like the center of the trial, 90 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: being cross exam and by Roy Code, who is a monster. 91 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: Now the trial was televised and it was one of 92 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: the first mass TV events in world history. Twenty million 93 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: Americans got to watch this kid, who is basically like 94 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: the avatar of their beloved military and of white innocence, 95 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: get torn apart by Roy Cone and Joe McCarthy. It 96 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: was nothing that Roy and Joe hadn't done to hundreds 97 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: of people before, but because the victim was a friendly, 98 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: young white man. The cruelty suddenly mattered to Americans, like, 99 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: that is exactly what happens, is they pick on a 100 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: nice white boy on television and that destroys their careers. 101 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's how we got all of our gay 102 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: legal legislation in the early offs. And uh now it's like, oh, 103 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: our white family members are gay. Well, changes that white 104 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: people are gay? Well, I guess we'll have to deal 105 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, I guess there are people. Yeah. So 106 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: it it also mattered that a man with some sort 107 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: of moral character happened to be taking part in the hearings, 108 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: and that man was Joseph Welch, the Army special counsel 109 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: he had hired, the young lawyer that McCarthy and Cone 110 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: were badgering, and eventually he got fed up enough to 111 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: tell them. Until this moment, Senator, I think I never 112 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: really gauged your cruelty or recklessness. Now, Cone was savvy 113 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: enough to see the room's response to this, and to 114 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: realize that he was on television and realize how bad 115 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: this looked, and he desperately You can watch again, this 116 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: is all on video. You can watch him try to 117 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: get McCarthy to back down. You can watch him being like, no, no, 118 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: we gotta like, we gotta like, this isn't gonna go 119 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: well for us to get pushing this ship. Um but 120 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: tail gunner Joe would not have any of that bullshit. 121 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: He continued pressing the young lawyer until Welch told him, 122 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: let us not assassinate this lad further. Senator, You've done enough. 123 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: Have you no decency sir? At long last? Have you 124 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: no sense of decency? Uh? Listen, the fifties love decency, 125 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: They love decent people. Oh yeah, up. Now this was 126 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: the death knell for McCarthy, is um yeah. The Army 127 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: put together a dossier and Roy Cone which listed all 128 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: of the ways he had threatened and intimidated witnesses in 129 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: order to get his boyfriend light duty and better assignments. 130 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: The White House leaked this to the press into Congress, 131 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: and suddenly McCarthy and Cone were being cinsured for abuse 132 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: of power. I'm gonna quote now from a write up 133 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: by the Miller Center in May nineteen fifty four. I 134 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: simply said that administration officials and all executive branch employees 135 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: would ignore any call from McCarthy to testify Eisenhower explained 136 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: his action, declaring that it is essential to efficient and 137 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: effective administration that employees of the executive branch be in 138 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: a position to be completely candid and advising with each 139 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: other on official matters without those conversations being subject to 140 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: congressional scrutiny. Now this was a a bold and daring move, 141 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: and it worked. McCarthy his credibility in tatters and now 142 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: starved witnesses hit a brick wall, and his fellow senators 143 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: turned against him. In early December nineteen fifty four, the 144 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: Senate passed emotion of condemnation in a vote of sixty 145 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: seven to twenty two. McCarthy was ruined, and within three 146 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: years he was dead from alcohol abuse. The era of 147 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: McCarthyism was over. I could help to bring it to 148 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: a better end. And again I only gets involved and 149 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: puts his personal credibility on the line to take out McCarthy. 150 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: When McCarthy makes a mistake that that pushes people against him. 151 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, no, it makes sense. Oh he's already dead. 152 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: I kill him, kill him now, crazy, I know, I yeah. 153 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: Cowardice is the best way to describe it. And the 154 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: fact and even that one senator who had to really, 155 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: he had the piercing line of have you no decency? Sir? 156 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: Look in a mirror. If of America's work population had 157 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: to be interrogated, and it took one white dude for 158 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: you to be like, oh maybe I should pay attention. 159 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: Uh you, I don't know how much decency there Isn't 160 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: that either? Yeah? Yeah, it's great. So Con left the 161 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 1: government in nineteen fifty five, never to return. Stymied from 162 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: continuing to assault and abuse his political letemies, he decided 163 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: to go after the next best thing, acquiring the wealth 164 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: necessary to keep fucking with people now. The best way 165 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: he could think to do this was with what was 166 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: effectively one of the family businesses, the Lionel Corporation. By 167 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, it was the largest toy manufacturer on 168 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: the planet. So there there's a big old company. When 169 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: Roy returned to New York in nineteen fifty five, he 170 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: decided to take it over. Now, he worked at a 171 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: law firm by day, which was a job that his 172 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: dad got for him, and he organized like, basically put 173 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: while he's working in during his days at the law firm, 174 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: he's putting together cash from himself and his other investors 175 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: in his family money to buy up two hundred thousand 176 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 1: shares of Lionel bit by bit, and he does it 177 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: like kind of in secret. By nineteen fifty nine, he 178 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: had enough to make up a controlling interest in the company. 179 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: Roy took charge of the Lionel Corporation, and of course 180 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: he proved to be absolutely terrible at the job of 181 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: managing a toy company. Roy Cone somehow does not get 182 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 1: what children want. Um, yeah, I know he would have. 183 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: Who would have thought roy Cone would not have known 184 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: what kids wanted in a toy Yeah. So basically, after 185 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: under several years of roy Cone's management, Loyal collapses, leading 186 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: to Roy's ouster and paving the way for the company 187 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: to be bought by Neil Young. Um. Yeah, the musician 188 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: Neil Young buys it. He's apparently huge into toy trains. Yeah, 189 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: never went a guest. Mhm. That part of it, like 190 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: Neil Young taking over, is actually a very suite and 191 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: a very happy story. So obviously we're not going to 192 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: talk about it at all because this is my podcast, 193 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: but Neil Young is great. Throughout the nineteen sixties, Roy 194 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: developed his career as a lawyer for the powerful and 195 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: incredibly fucking shady. He had a particular fondness for working 196 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: for the mob. Among his clients was a guy named 197 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: fat Tony Salerno, who, by the way, the Simpsons fat 198 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: Tony is based off of the real mobster fat Tony Salerno. Yeah, 199 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: that's why they that's why his name is that. Like 200 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: nobody watching the today knows about this mobster from like 201 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, But yeah, fat Tony Salerno ran 202 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: the biggest numbers racket in New York City, alongside prostitution 203 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: and loan sharking and all of the normal mob ship 204 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: you'd expect. Through a confused, using set of schemes, he 205 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: actually came to co own a huge number of New 206 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: York City parking lots with the mob. Roy Kone did so, 207 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: like Roy is the Mob's lawyer, and he winds up basically, 208 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: there's all these parking lots that are supposed to be 209 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: owned by the City of New York, but like one 210 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: of the city employees basically allows Roy and the Mob 211 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: to control them, and so Roy co owns a bunch 212 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: of like paid parking spaces with the Mafia in New 213 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: York City. It's a weird gag lot or is it 214 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: just the parking spots. Yeah, he owns lots. Yeah, he 215 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: owns parking lots that that are supposed to be city property. 216 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: But Roy and the Mob are profiting off of them 217 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: and memory serves in the seventies, they use those to 218 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 1: slowly start building new developments. Although, yeah, yeah, you got 219 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: I think Roy was probably involved in some of that. 220 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: Although it's the kind of thing where like nobody's writing 221 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: down Roy's exact involvement, and this is a cash business, 222 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 1: so like he's not paying taxes on any of Yeah, 223 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: it's super illegal, is the core of this. Yeah. If 224 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: there was one thing that Roy hated more than communists, 225 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: it was the concept of paying taxes. Many of his 226 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: friends later reported that his Many of his friends later 227 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: reported that his greatest ambition in life was to die 228 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: owing the I R S millions and millions of dollars um. 229 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: He simply did not pay taxes. As he grew more 230 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 1: successful as a mob lawyer and became partner at his 231 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: Manhattan law firm, Cone wrangled the business into paying for 232 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: his two roles, Royces, paying for his food, his suits, 233 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: his vacations, his homes. Cone would loudly explain to anyone 234 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: who listened that he avoided making any more money than 235 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: absolutely necessary. Business expenses were tax deductible for the company 236 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: and not income for him, even if they went to 237 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: buying him whatever he wanted to happen to one. So 238 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: Cone had no money basically, but the company had a 239 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: lot of money, and the company paid for everything that 240 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: Cone had and then wrote off those payments his tax deductible, 241 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: and so Cone didn't pay taxes. Listen, I don't have 242 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: all the numbers before me, but I know a lot 243 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: of millionaires and billionaires were like living off of that 244 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: model of lifestyle. Now, yeah, god, yeah, it's pretty cool 245 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: that he that he that he works this out and 246 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: very telling of like the kind of guy that he is. 247 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: Because again, Roy doesn't think he has any responsibility to 248 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: like society or to like the country, to making like 249 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, Rhodes and ship like Roy Roy Cone does 250 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: not give a funk about any of that. So Cone 251 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: broadened his practice from the mafia to other wealthy and 252 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: powerful men who you know, wanted to get out of 253 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: the law one way or the other. A big part 254 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: of his clientele were wealthy men who wanted to divorce 255 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: their wives without losing any of their money. He also 256 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: started representing the Archdiocese of New York, a KA the 257 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. So in New York, the mafia and the 258 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: Catholic Church had the same lawyer, and it was roy Coe. 259 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: You gotta love New York. Yeah, it's pretty great. Wow. Well, 260 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: I mean in the Catholic Church, bunch of Italian men 261 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: with a lot of money who commit crimes. The Mob 262 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of Italian men with a lot of money 263 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: who commit crimes. I guess the only difference is that 264 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: the Mob includes more Sicilians. It's good stuff. Yeah. As 265 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: the sixties turned to the seventies, Royce started defending wealthy 266 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: people charged with cocaine possession. He was an expert wielder 267 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: of the legal cudgel. Roy was known to brag, my 268 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: tough front is my biggest asset. I don't write polite letters. 269 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: I don't like to plea bargain. I like to fight. 270 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: And he was also famous for saying that all he 271 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: cared about in a case it didn't matter, Like he 272 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: didn't care about the evidence, he didn't care about the charges. 273 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: He just cared about who the judge was. Because his 274 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: job in any court case was to was to manipulate 275 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: the judge. Nothing else mattered. Yeah, I think so if 276 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: we go back to episode one where we were talking 277 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: about his childhood and growing up with all of those, 278 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: he would know, you know, this is an a typical 279 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: type of judge or this one's Yeah, and he's familiar 280 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: with all the cases. It makes sense lean into your strengths, 281 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: Roy Cone. Why not? Yeah, Yeah, it's I mean, it's 282 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: totally like he's he's very consistently the man he is 283 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: his entire life. He's like twenty something at that point, 284 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: he's twenty seven when he and McCarthy are like like 285 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: finally when their crusade ends, so like he never changes. 286 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: Like That's the kind of the thing about Roy Cone 287 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: is he is exactly the same person his entire life, 288 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: which is remarkable. There's no arc like he at no 289 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: point does Roy grow as a human being. Well, when 290 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: your mom, you know, is taking care of you into 291 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: your forties, you have no need to grow. Yeah, you 292 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: do think that might have had something to do with it. 293 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three, Roy Cone met the man who 294 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: would become his moral protege and almost a son to him, 295 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: Donald J. Trump. They first met. Yeah, they first met 296 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: at a nightclub when Trump was in his mid pointies, 297 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: the same rough age Roy Cone and his boyfriend Shine 298 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: were when they started working for McCarthy. And a number 299 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: of people have pointed out that Donald Trump and David 300 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: Shine both look a lot alike. Shine was like a tall, 301 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: on Nordic looking young man. If you look at pictures 302 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: of like Donald Trump when he's in his twenties, like 303 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: he's a tall, blonde, Nordic looking man. They're kind of 304 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: similar looking dudes. Umu as. I mean, that's not how 305 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: Roy Cone felt about it. Like a lot of people 306 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: basically will insinuate Cone had a crush on Donald Trump. 307 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: Um and that may have been the case. Uh. Now, 308 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: when they met, Donald's dad was still alive. Shockingly, Donald 309 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: Trump's dad didn't dine to nine. I think it was 310 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: like he was alive way longer than he should have been. Yeah, 311 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: so it wouldn't be at the end, Yeah, it was. 312 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: It was bad now. Yeah, so Donald is the heir 313 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: of a massive fortune when they meet, and he's already 314 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: in trouble in the law too, because he's his dad 315 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: and he owned a real estate company that had just 316 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: gotten exposed for refusing to rent homes to black people. UM. 317 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: So that's like the first conversation Roy Cone and Donald 318 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: Trump has. It's like Donald Trump's like, yeah, the law 319 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: is up my ask because we won't rent to black people. 320 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: And Roy Cone's like, oh, I can help with that. Um. 321 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: And that's how their relationship starts. I'm gonna quote from 322 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: The Atlantic Beautiful start it is. It's gorgeous. Trump recognized 323 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: a man after his own self image, a ruthless player 324 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: who knew how to win. In the film, Cone remembers 325 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: Trump saying, I've spent two days with these establishment law 326 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: firms and they're all telling us give up, do this 327 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,479 Speaker 1: sign a decree or and all that. I followed your 328 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: career and you seem you're a little bit crazy like 329 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: I am, and you stand up to the establishment. Can 330 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: I come see you. Donald asked for Roy's advice, and 331 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: Roy told him very simply tell them to go to 332 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: hell and fight the thing in court. They did exactly that. 333 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: Trump and Cone held a press conference announcing a hundred 334 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: million dollar countersuit against the government. It was almost immediately dismissed, 335 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: but that was not the point. Con understood the media 336 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: from his childhood writing a gossip column and his time 337 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: leaking stories to the press on behalf of the FBI. 338 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: Roy knew that Americans never read below the headline when 339 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: they're looking at a newspaper, so nobody would find out 340 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: that the suit got dismissed. All they remember was the 341 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: headline that Trump had countersued the government for a hundred 342 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: million dollars, which must mean that Trump had some reasonable 343 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: reason to be angry at the government, that they wronged 344 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: him too. And then suddenly you've complicated something that's actually 345 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: very simple. Trump and his dad are racist to ship. Um. 346 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: You see the same tactic at play in Trump today. 347 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: Here's where he learns it. Roy Cone teaches him this ship. 348 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: So the legal battle with Cone and Trump versus the 349 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: government went on for almost two years, and it did 350 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: not end in a victory for roy Cone or Donald 351 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: Trump in the traditional legal sense of the word, but 352 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: both still considered it a win from the Atlantic. They 353 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: won the case by not losing, by counter attacking, raising 354 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: phony charges, admitting no wrong Trump paid careful attention. Roger 355 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: Stone was another one of roy Cone's friends and protegees, 356 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: and he was interviewed for the documentary Where's My Roy Cone? 357 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: His comments in that film can be assumed to double 358 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: as Donald Trump's comments on the same matter. Roy would 359 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: always be for an offensive strategy. These were the rules 360 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: of war. You don't fight on the other guy's ground. 361 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: You define what the debate is going to be about. 362 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: I think Trump would learn that from Roy. I learned 363 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: that from Roy. It's very upset that it works. It's 364 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: it's disastrously successful. Now The Atlantic would go on to 365 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: some up Roy's style this way Conan Trump embody the 366 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: mafia style and American politics. I don't mean the sopranos. 367 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: I mean the cold will to power that carries a 368 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: threat of murder without shame. And it's worth noting that 369 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: the two people interviewed and Where's My Roy Cone described 370 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: Cone with the word evil, so like again that that's 371 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: just the guy he is. Everyone knew it, Trump knew it, 372 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: and Trump loved it. And when we talk about evil 373 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: on this show on Behind the Bastards, were usually talking 374 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: about someone with a significant body count. And if we're 375 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: talking about kills that Roy ordered, he's he's stuck it 376 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: maybe too Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. But like most mob lawyers, 377 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: Roy had a funny way of having enemies or former 378 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: friends wind up dying under mysterious circumstance. This one example 379 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: would be the guy who sold Roy and the Mob 380 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: those parking lots, because again he was doing he was 381 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: giving them those lots illegally, and there was an investigation 382 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: into him, and then he turned up dead in the 383 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: trunk of a car, um Like. I don't know if 384 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: Roy had anything to do with that, but I don't 385 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: know that he didn't. Then there was a signature Mob 386 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: style of at the time was just shoot him in 387 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: the back of their trunk and then close it walk away, yep, yep. 388 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: And yeah. Then there was the case of Roy's yacht. 389 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 1: I say Roy's yacht, but it was really owned by 390 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: Cones law firm least from Michelle company called Pied Piper 391 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: Yacht Charters, which I think Roy also had some sort 392 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: of interest in. Everyone hid Piper, Yeah, Pie Piper Yacht Charters. Sure. 393 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: I feel like Epstein is really just right about to 394 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: just be like hello. A lot of people were taking 395 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: notes on Roy, so everyone knew the yacht as Roy's 396 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: yacht until June twenty, nineteen seventy three. On that night, 397 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: the ninett yacht, which was officially named Defiance, sunk off 398 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: the floor to coast. It was insured and Roy made 399 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: two thousand dollars. It shure was Defiance of the I 400 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: R S. I bet yeah you can't. You can't see it, listeners, 401 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: but all of us just made a face like, Now, 402 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: it was handy that the yachts sunk, because by nineteen 403 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: seventy three the Defiance was well past its best days. 404 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: Her original captain had refused to take the helm on 405 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: the journey up to New York because the boat was 406 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: in such bad shape and they were actually going to 407 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,239 Speaker 1: scuttle the boat and sell it for scrap. But the 408 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: fact that it's sank meant that Cone got a hell 409 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: of a lot more money for it because it was 410 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: insured for the full value of a functional yacht. Um 411 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: and yeah, so this the the guy who had been 412 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: the captain of the boat refuses to pilot it because 413 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: it's in such bad shape, so Cone fire, He resigns, 414 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: and then Cone hires another captain to replace him, and 415 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: the captain he picks as a convicted felon in three states. Um, yeah, 416 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: not maybe the best guy to pilot your boat. Now, 417 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: before the journey started, twenty one year old sailor Charles 418 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: Martinson told his father that he had a bad feeling 419 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: about the vessel and he wasn't sure it would make 420 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: the journey. Sure Enough, a fire broke out and the 421 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: boat sank with Martinson aboard it, and Martinson died. His father. Lt. 422 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: Martinson was also a sailor and something about the story 423 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: that the captain told him about how his son had 424 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: died didn't sit right. In July, he succeeded in sitting 425 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: down with a crew member and secretly taping their conversation. 426 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: The crew member admitted to suspecting that the boat had 427 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: been deliberately sabotaged, and furthermore revealed that the FBI had 428 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: reached out to him about the sinking. Now, the FBI 429 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: never found anything conclusive, and they decided not to dredge 430 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: up the boat to do a proper investigation because it 431 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: would have been expensive, so they left it at the 432 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: bottom of the sea with Charles's body. Lt. Martinson went 433 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 1: to his grave believing that Roy Cone had deliberately scuttled 434 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: the boat, killing his son to make two thousand dollars. 435 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: When an interviewer asked roy about this, His response was 436 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: interesting and completely characteristic of him. This is Roy. He 437 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: thinks I murdered his son. Let's look at it this way. Hey, 438 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: I didn't own the boat. B I didn't get the insurance. See, 439 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: the statement is an outrageous falsehood. For how am I 440 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: going to get angry in a man who lost his son. 441 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: You've got to feel terrible about it. I'm certainly not 442 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: going to get into a name calling contest or a 443 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: criminal lawsuit against a father who lost his son. All 444 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: I can tell you is that I understand his bitter feelings. 445 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: And if he read someplace that I gave a party 446 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: on the boat, it was my boat. Even though I 447 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: never met a son, never heard of his son, never 448 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: hired his son, never saw his son in my entire life, 449 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: and never had any insurance come to me directly or indirectly. 450 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: I'm still not a bit angry at a man who 451 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: reacts emotionally. Wow, when you lose a son, I couldn't 452 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: be sorrier for him for what happened. Now that's Roy's response. Uh, 453 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: And it's impossible to prove what happened here one way 454 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: or the other, but it's fair to say that whether 455 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: or not Roy intended to murder that young man. He 456 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: absolutely orchestrated something shady in regards to the sinking of 457 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: that boat. All you have to do is follow the 458 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: money which Esquire did. What of the two thoundred thousand 459 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: dollar insurance policy? It was paid to a dummy corporation 460 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: set up by Pied Piper Yacht Charters, owners of the boat, 461 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: the same company whose escrow account Roy manipulated. According to 462 00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: court papers, part of the insurance money was to spur 463 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: Us to pay off the yachts mortgage. Another fifteen thousand, 464 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: seventy five went to Cohn's law firm for legal fees. 465 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: Another's seven thousand and one hundred dollars went to the 466 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: law firm his reimbursement for personal property lost on the boat, 467 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 1: and seven thousand fifty dollars was paid to Cone directly 468 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: for lost property. Confronted with this information, which contradicted his 469 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: earlier claims, Roy said, simply, this is possible. I'm not 470 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: sure whether we were paid by the insurance company or 471 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: Pipe Piper. I didn't get any money from the boat sinking. Well, yeah, 472 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: I mean I got that money from the boat sinking. 473 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: Seven thousand dollars and a half or made some several thousands, 474 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: and my law firm got thousands of My law firm 475 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: pays for me. Yes, if you have power, you can 476 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: just shrug and people will be like, Okay, then I 477 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: guess we don't know, and they'll walk away. It's incredible 478 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: that the FBI would not want to investigate this guy 479 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: who's been a part of jillion shady things like this 480 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: could have been the whole Yeah, it's so good. Yeah. 481 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: And that poor dad, Oh yeah, no, he's I mean, 482 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: his life is ruined because his son has killed, possibly murdered. 483 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: Because some people will say that like the kid realized 484 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: there was a scheme going on and Roy had him killed. 485 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, Like, I don't know if Roy was 486 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 1: I kind of out Roy intended for someone to die, 487 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: But I think Roy had a malicious disregard for whether 488 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: or not someone died. I will say that's probably true. Yeah. 489 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: So this gets me to another important fact about Roy Khone. 490 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: We are never going to have a full accounting of 491 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: the extent of this man's crimes. It's impossible because he 492 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: knew the law, he had powerful friends, and most of 493 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: the crimes he committed tended to be the kind of 494 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: shady rich guy crimes that involved secretly buying businesses and 495 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: manipulating escrow accounts and other things no right minded person understands, 496 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: which is why wrong minded people like Roy get away 497 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: with the ship they get away with. So let's move 498 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: back to the mob. Roy's mafia connections came in super 499 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: handy when his new buddy, Donald Trump needed a favor. 500 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: In the late nineteen seventies, Trump was in the process 501 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: of constructing a building that is still today the most 502 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: famous cornerstone of his real estate empire, Fifth Avenue's Trump Tower. 503 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: It was to be a huge building, as grand as 504 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: the narcissistic ambitions of its namesake, and while most skyscrapers 505 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: of similar size were made from steel, Trump for some 506 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: reason wanted to build it entirely out of concrete. It 507 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: was the largest concrete structure in the country for a 508 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: while now. The problem with making a building of this 509 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: size out of concrete is that the entire concrete industry 510 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: in New York, including its labor union, was controlled by 511 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: the mafia during this period of time. According to another 512 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: write up from Esquire, quote ready mixed concrete drives quickly, 513 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: which can leave developers vulnerable to expensive workers slowdowns, a 514 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: common tactic from mob controlled construction sites. Will Other developers 515 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: were urging the FBI to take down the mafia. Trump 516 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: bought its concrete and artificially high prices. According to Pulitzer 517 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: Prize winning journalist David K. Johnston, who's known and covered 518 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: Trump for thirty years, Trump received in exchange a smoothly 519 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: operating work site from the construction union. So Trump, through 520 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: Cone orchestrates a plan where like Number one, the unions 521 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: on strike. At this point, people can't really get concrete, 522 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: and when they do, people like the workers will pour 523 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: the concrete and then go on strike in order to 524 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: get more money, a lot of which goes to the 525 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,239 Speaker 1: mafia's coppers. And because the concrete will be wasted if 526 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: it's not like worked on while it's still setting like, 527 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: it's a great racket. And Trump, basically, because of Cones connection, 528 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: is able to set up an arrangement with the mob 529 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: by by which he's the only guy who gets to 530 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: use concrete effectively in constructing a building during this period 531 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: of time. You know who doesn't control the entire concrete 532 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: industry in New York City? Is it your advertisers? Yeah, yep, 533 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: they don't. They absolutely do not. We are we are back. 534 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: We we have returned. So, according to a former Cone employee, 535 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: Trump and Fat Tony Salerno actually met face to face 536 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: at Cones town house. Now Trump has denied the meeting 537 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: ever occurred, but Salerno was later indicted on racketeering charges 538 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: for an eight million dollar concrete deal made for a 539 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: Trump development. So you tell me now. The successful construction 540 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: of Trump Tower is what first made Trump. The project, 541 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 1: which involved tearing down an old hotel that had been 542 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: at the location and building up something better, had been 543 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: seen as impossible when Donald announced his plans, in part 544 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: because the concrete working union was on strike and there 545 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: were a bunch of logistical hurdles and it was Roy 546 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: Cone who managed all these hurdles for Trump. Like this 547 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: was seen as the reason Trump got famous. Is like 548 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: everyone was like because of how corrupt the construction industry is, 549 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: because of the mob, There's no way Donald Trump is 550 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: going to be able to actually like complete this project. 551 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: And he does and it impresses everybody. And the reason 552 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: he does is because Roy Cone fucking knows everybody. And 553 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: Roy Cone fixes this for Donald. Now, Cones Law firm part. 554 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: There's a number of reasons why it's not just his 555 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: connections to the mob. One of them is that Cohn's 556 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: partner in his law firm was the Deputy mayor of 557 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: New York City who fast tracked approval. Yeah, who fast 558 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: tracked approval for Trump's construction plans. When the was finished, 559 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: Cone engineered positive coverage for Trump in The New York Post, 560 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: which was owned by one of Cohen's clients, a guy 561 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: you might have heard of named Rupert Murdoch. Together, so 562 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: Trump Cone introduces Trump to Rupert Murdoch. That's where that 563 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: relationship starts. Is roy Kone? What of people? Yeah, human filth. Yeah. 564 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: So Donald Trump got the credit for the feet of construction, 565 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: of course, or at least he took the credit, and 566 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: his fame only grew from there. And for his part, 567 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: Roy kne didn't want credit. What he really wanted was 568 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: to be needed by powerful people. One of his acquaintances 569 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: at the time noted that the first thing he Cone 570 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: said to me was Donald Trump cannot live without me. 571 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: We speak on the phone sometimes thirty forty times a day. 572 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: Wow wow wow. Yeah. It's got to be nice to 573 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: be needed, you know, especially when you trade in gossip, lies, 574 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: and destroying other lives. You know, you need people to 575 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: need you, or people are going to be angry at you. Yep, 576 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: it's like a wall of humans. He surrounded himself with 577 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: maddening So the nineteen seventies were probably Roy Cone's golden era. 578 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: He was an infamous regular at Studio fifty four, the 579 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: cocaine drenched nightclub that defined New York culture in the 580 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: late seventies, or at least the parts of it that 581 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: involved drugged up rich people. Cone partied with Andy Warhol 582 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: and an assortment of other famous people who weren't Andy Warhol. 583 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: He was constantly seen with Barbara Walters, who he was 584 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: fake engaged to for years in order to have a measure. 585 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: Yeah Barbara, Yeah, Barbara. She was one of his closest friends. 586 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: They basically like they were in a faux relationship for 587 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: years so that he could have plausible to I idility 588 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: as to being gay. Yeah, Barbara Walters, I mean girl icon. 589 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: Everybody loved ry Code, that's the thing. People. Well, also, 590 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: like he's friends with a bunch of people who he 591 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 1: should have hated him because they were like left wing 592 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: or like they were, you know, progressive or they were 593 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: gay themselves. Cone is just one thing people point out 594 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: is he was really charming. He's a people person, that's 595 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: but it's Barbara. She's a rich person, and rich people, 596 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: I know, part of the same class unless things go 597 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: bad from our lives. Robert. Yeah. But again, this just 598 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: continues to outline the psychopathy that clearly was Roy Cone. Like, yeah, 599 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: the idea that you could convince all of these people 600 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: to like you despite the fact you were so clearly 601 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: a horrible person in bed with them. Monster. Yeah. I 602 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: found a story and yet another Esquire article about Roy 603 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: Cone that illustrates the kind of socialite that he was 604 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: and how he exercised his influence. It's a petty tale, 605 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: but it's a fun one about a restaurant SPA called 606 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: twenty one that yeah, quote the restaurant's ba of the 607 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: rich and powerful used to seat Roy Cone in Siberia 608 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: upstairs in a corner with the tourists. One day, Roy 609 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: called and made a reservation for four at eight pm, 610 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: purposefully arriving ten minutes early. He was brusquely led to 611 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: his usual far nook promptly at eight pm. The Duke 612 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: and Duchess of Windsor entered the room. Tin captain stood up, 613 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: as Roy remembers it, and tried to steer the Duke 614 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: and Duchess to a choice table. From the corner of 615 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: the room, Roy waved to his dinner guests. They waved back, 616 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: pulling away from the captains to join their friend. Please, 617 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 1: Mr Khne, the Captain's beseeched him, allow us to give 618 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: you a more comfortable table. He wouldn't hear of it. 619 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: Roy loved it, recalls his boyhood friend William Fugazi. He 620 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: fixed them. That was his way of showing them. Now 621 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: he gets the good tables, so they don't. They think 622 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: Roy's gross and they give him the bad table. So 623 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: he invites the Duke and Duchess of winds Are over 624 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: and they have to sit in the shitty table with him. 625 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: And then after that he always gets the good table 626 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: because you never know who Roy's gonna bring. Wow, because 627 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: the tourists. I mean, that's a fucking power move though, 628 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: Like you want to impress, I'll just get just have 629 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: the Duke and fucking Duchess of Windsor come in and 630 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: like fuck you. I'm Roy Knea. Yeah, the man knew 631 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: had a wheeld Power. Yeah. Now, Roy the man who 632 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: Knew how to live Wheeld Power lived with his mother 633 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: in her home until her death in nineteen sixty seven. 634 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: The door to his bedroom held a nameplate that spelled 635 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: out Roy in the Disney font. He collected hundreds of 636 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: stuffed frogs and had weird exotic pets, including at least 637 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: one lama. He was a strange dude lama a llama, Yeah, 638 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: and a llama at one point, has too much money 639 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: and and a huge stuffed frog collection. A huge stuffed 640 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: frog collection. Yeah, like like like stuffed frog collection, like 641 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: plush like like like like plush frogs like um, like 642 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: stuffed animals, but from emotionally stunted human beings their childhood. 643 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: He also used his connections with Studio fifty four, which 644 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: gave him an unlimited access to drugs, to ensure a 645 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: constant supply of young men showed up at his door 646 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: ready to so basically he pays a lot of these 647 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: young boys and drugs. He is said to have slept 648 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: with a new boy each day, and that's probably not 649 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: an exaggeration. Now. In fairness, Roy was renowned for being 650 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: one of the very best friends you could have. Unlike 651 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: his protegee Donald Trump, roy was capable of deep and 652 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: abiding loyalty, and when he chose to take someone on 653 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,959 Speaker 1: as a client, he would go to absurd and often 654 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: the legal lengths to win their cases. In nineteen sixty four, 655 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: he was indicted for obstructing justice to get his client 656 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: off for stock fraud. On one occasion, he helped a 657 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: friend of his out by talking a judge into administering 658 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,959 Speaker 1: the oath of citizenship to another friend, completely shortcutting the length. Yeah, 659 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: so a friend of his is trying to get citizenship 660 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: for this um. I think he might have been Cuban 661 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: for this filmmaker that he wanted to have work on 662 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: a project with him, and he needed to get the 663 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: guy's citizenship. And he asks Roy, and Roy just tells 664 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: him show up at this courtroom in Los Angeles at 665 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: this time. And like, the guy shows up with the 666 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: dude who needs citizenship in the back of this courtroom. 667 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: The judge sees them at the particular time and a 668 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: journs the court proceedings, calls them up and administers the 669 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 1: oath of citizenship. That's the kind of ship that Roy 670 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: Cone can fix, right, Like when I say he was 671 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: the best fixer. He was like an absolute genius at 672 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: his evil craft. It is yes that the system can 673 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: be so easily moved. Is still I don't know why 674 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: we live like this? Yeah? No, because if you, if 675 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: you are a guy like Roy kone, none of the 676 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: none of the bureaucracy exists, because you just call a 677 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: person and you make it happen, which is why he 678 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: has the friends he has now. Kne shenanigans did land 679 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: him in constant legal trouble. In nineteen sixty nine, he 680 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: was arrested for bribing a city appraiser. During his court case, 681 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: his lawyer suffered a likely faked heart attack, and Cone 682 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: was forced to mount his own defense. He spoke with 683 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: no notes for seven straight hours, ending on a long 684 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: monologue about his love for the United States of America. 685 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: The jury was moved to tears and he was acquitted. 686 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: Oh come on, play the heart like an instrument. He's amazing, 687 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: Like he's one of those he's a monster. There is 688 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: a degree to which you have to respect him because 689 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: he was fucking good at what he did. He was 690 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: the best at being Roy Cone Um, one of his 691 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: friends later said of Roy, I was surprised at how 692 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: absolutely shameless he was about who he was. He had 693 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 1: almost a kind of delight in being Roy Cone. Underneath 694 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: the social persona of needing to be liked, there was 695 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: an absolute menace. And for an example of that kind 696 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: of menace, there was one year where he rented a 697 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: vacation house at a Florida beach town fame for being 698 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: a haven for gay men. Roy partied and fucked and 699 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: he wound up at a number of the same gatherings 700 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: as John Waters, who despised him. And this is one 701 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: of the things about this John Waters. So all of 702 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: these people like Andy Warhol, Barbara Walters are happy to 703 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: be friends with Roy Cone as much of a monster 704 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: as he was. Walter's never John Waters never falls for it. 705 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,439 Speaker 1: He because John Waters is a real one. And when 706 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: people when when Waters his friends would out with Roy 707 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: would be like, do not fucking know who this guy is? Like, 708 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: fuck you, you cannot be friends with this guy. Look 709 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: at good human work. Yeah, no, John Waters, fucking rules 710 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: Waters is as good as you would hope he would be, um, 711 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: yeah and yeah, So Water, John Waters, who despised him 712 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: and he was heart was horrified that a lot of 713 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 1: the younger men didn't know who Roy was and would 714 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: you know have sex with him in exchange for drugs 715 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: and money? Um and Roy knes landlady at the time, 716 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: the woman who rins him this house, gives a fascinating 717 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: interview for the documentary Bully Coward Victim, and she notes 718 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: that Cone was always surrounded by people, at least two 719 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,720 Speaker 1: or three, but often more than that, and she she 720 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: found it particularly striking that the only time she ever 721 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,919 Speaker 1: saw him alone is on the occasions that he would 722 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: go out for a swim. Every other moment of his 723 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: life he was surrounded by people. This is a man 724 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: who almost could not be alone with himself, which I 725 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: think is important. Um. I mean, listen, you do a 726 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: lot of bad things. They're gonna hunt you now. His 727 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: landlady also note that the at the end of his 728 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: year there, he offered to buy the house from her, 729 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: and she told him it wasn't for sale, and in 730 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: her recollection when she said that, his eyes grew very cold, 731 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: and he told her things that aren't for sale have 732 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 1: a nasty way of getting sold. Oh, threat just switched 733 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: to threats. That's how it works. Yeah, all right. So 734 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six, Roy's oldest client, the eighty four 735 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: year old Lewis Rosen Steel net worth seventy five million dollars, 736 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: was on his deathbed in a Florida hospital. Being a 737 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: good and decent man, Roy arrived to help him sign 738 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: his last will and testament. Of course, Lewis already had 739 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 1: a will. Elderly and ill, Roy was able to convince 740 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: him that the document he was signing would save one 741 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: of his ex wives from prison. Instead, it was a 742 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: revised will that would have made Cone a trustee and 743 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: the executor of Rosenstein's will. The amended word, Yeah, baby, Yeah, 744 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: it's great. Now. The amended will was avoided in court, 745 00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: but it gives you an idea of the kind of 746 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: things that Roy got up to. Oh my word, yeah, 747 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: stealing from a dying man. Yeah, of course he's going 748 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: to steal from a dying man. That guy doesn't need 749 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: it anymore. That's the bottom of the barrel, Ship Roight. 750 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: He spent his life at the bottom of that barrel. Now, 751 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: by the close of the nineteen seventies, Roy was at 752 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: the absolute height of his power, the single most feared 753 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 1: lawyer probably in the world. This Esquire profile from nineteen 754 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: seventy eight gives you both a rundown of why he 755 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: was so terrifying and how he was seen by his 756 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: contemporaries at the apex of his power. I can get attention, 757 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 1: no question about it, says Cone. They know my name. 758 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: The usual responses what did I do? His standard technique 759 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: is to dispatch a threatening letter on behalf of a client. Hey, Mr, 760 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: this is now the eleventh hour before the monster strikes. 761 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: Is how Roy puts it. Roy symbolizes viciousness and protecting 762 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: a client or going after someone who needs viciousness to 763 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: write a wrong says Bill Fugazy. He fights his cases 764 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: as if they were his own. It is war. If 765 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: he feels his adversary has been unfair, it is war 766 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: to the death. No white eggs, no Mr. Nice guy. 767 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: Prospective clients who went to kill their husband, torture a 768 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: business partner, break the government's legs, higher Roy Cone. He 769 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: is a legal executioner, the toughest, meanest, loyalist, violist, and 770 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: one of the most brilliant lawyers in America. He is 771 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: not a very nice man. Once, when a husband tried 772 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: to pull a fast one and ordered two moving trucks 773 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: to sneak up to collect furniture at seven am. His 774 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: hysterical wife called Roy. What should I do? She screamed, 775 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: Sit tight. He calmed her, I'll call the cops. He 776 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: had the husband thrown in jail. I must have had 777 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: fifty men call me over the years and asked, we 778 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: hear Roy Cone is going to represent my wife. Would 779 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: you make sure he doesn't rough us up? Says Fugaze. 780 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: The mere sending of a letter from Roy Cone has 781 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: saved us a lot of money, says builder Donald Trump. 782 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: When people know that Roy is involved, they'd rather not 783 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: get involved in the lawsuits and everything else that's involved. Publishers, 784 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: TV networks, editors are accomplished to receiving peremptory phone calls, 785 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,359 Speaker 1: are threatening letters from Cone, and cringe at the court 786 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: costs of taking him on. What's really incredible is that 787 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: he sort of has created the modern wealthy douche. Like 788 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: if you if you think about all the stuff that 789 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: happened early on with me too and the director who 790 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: I will not name, but you know who he is. Producer. Sorry, Um, 791 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: he pulled all those same tactics. I'll just I'll just 792 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: call the paper and threaten them because who's gonna want 793 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: to deal with me? And this idea that just if 794 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: I can exhaust you legally, not just with my words 795 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: but also with my financial capital, you just have to 796 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: bow out. That is so insidious. And I'm not going 797 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: to say he's the first person to do it, but 798 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: he was the best and maybe the first person to 799 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: get that good at it. Like he's so frightening that 800 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: after a while he doesn't even really have to argue cases. 801 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: You just are told that roy Cone is involved, and 802 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: you settle because you do not want to fucking step 803 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: into the ring with roy Cone. Right, ships and people, 804 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: like some other lawyers who were contemporaries of his will 805 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: argue like he wasn't actually a good lawyer, He was 806 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: just good at being frightening, Like that's that was roy 807 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: Cone's like skill was scaring the ship out of people. 808 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: Timidation is legit, man, absolutely, especially when you're going up 809 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: against the law, which a lot of people don't have, 810 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,479 Speaker 1: you know, an intrinsic knowledge of. Yeah. So in nineteen eighty, 811 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: Roy Cone got involved in national politics in a way 812 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: he really hadn't before. Cone had, of course considered running 813 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: for office, but his more level headed friends had told 814 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: him that that would be a terrible idea because he 815 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: his his closet was nothing but skeletons. It was like 816 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: one of those monasteries built out of the bones of monks. 817 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 1: That's Roy Cone's closet, like just just pure skeletons. So 818 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: obviously he can't run for office, but he can't help 819 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: his friends get into office. And one of his friends 820 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: was another fellow you might have heard of, Ronald Wilson Reagan. Now, 821 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 1: when Ronald started his run for the White House, roy 822 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: knew that he had a chance to seat a president 823 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: who was also a personal friend. Cone knew the Reagan's well, 824 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: and the Reagan's knew Cone as well as anyone ever 825 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: knew roy Cone. Despite being a registered Democrat, Cone and 826 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: his partners at the law firm campaigned and raised money 827 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: for Reagan's campaign. He also engaged in his traditional rat fuccory, 828 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: using his young friend Roger Stone, come and bribe the 829 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,879 Speaker 1: Liberal Party, which was a third party at the time, 830 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: to endorse John B. Anderson as a third party candidate 831 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: in the election. The thinking here was that he would 832 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,879 Speaker 1: take votes away from Jimmy Carter. Now, when Reagan won 833 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: the election, the new York Times noted, like lawyer campaigners 834 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: of all parties before them, the two now have a 835 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: voice in the appointment of the judges that members of 836 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: their law firm appear before, and of the United States 837 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: attorneys who prosecute their clients, which is obviously a dream 838 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: for Roykone because again, if you if you got the 839 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,720 Speaker 1: judge his job or the prosecutor, you're going up against 840 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,959 Speaker 1: their job. You got a little bit of average, don't 841 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: you just so just a little bit there are Okay, 842 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,400 Speaker 1: if you were a person who plays by the rules, 843 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: aren't you supposed to recuse yourself? No? Funk that ship? 844 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: No know when no one does that bullshit? Like why 845 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: would you do that? Ship? But you know who does 846 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: play by the rules? Joel, who's the products and services 847 00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: that support this podcast? I'm so glad. Yeah, we're back. 848 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: So President Reagan certainly had no issues being seen with 849 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,439 Speaker 1: infamous Cold warrior Roy Cone. The President's men actually threw 850 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,840 Speaker 1: a party for Cone and his partners after the election, 851 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,720 Speaker 1: and Roy himself through one of the best attended parties 852 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: on inauguration Day in nineteen eighty three, talking about a 853 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: little quid pro quo here we were just talking about 854 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,720 Speaker 1: how Cone gets a voice and who gets made a judge. 855 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: In nineteen eight three, Ronald Reagan appointed Mary Anne Trump Barry, 856 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's sister to the U. S. District Court. Okay, cool, 857 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: that's good. Some good ship. By the early nineteen eighties, 858 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 1: some of Roy's lifestyle choices were beginning to catch up 859 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: with him, namely his choice to never pay taxes. He 860 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 1: bragged to one interviewer that, without question, I hold the 861 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,879 Speaker 1: world's record for having been audited by the I R S. 862 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: He was in fact under audit for more than twenty 863 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: years and eventually charged with Yeah. They eventually charged him 864 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: to for going more than three million dollars in back taxes. Now, 865 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,279 Speaker 1: none of this stopped Cone from living the high life. 866 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: Between his firm and his rich friends, every need was 867 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: taken care of. Cone even joked readily that he didn't 868 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,399 Speaker 1: have a bank account because the I R S would 869 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: immediately seize it. And as Esquire reports, Cones refusal to 870 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: pay didn't just extend to the I R S. From 871 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: January nineteen seventy to December nineteen seventy seven, no less 872 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: than twenty eight judgments were filed against Roy in Manhattan 873 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: State Supreme Court. In fourteen separate cases, judges ordered him 874 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: to pay the State of New York a total of 875 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: seventy one thousand, three d two dollars and sixty one cents. 876 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: In three separate judgments, he was ordered to pay the 877 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,759 Speaker 1: city nine thousand, three hundred twenty eight dollars and ten 878 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: cents Dunhill Taylor's Oil, credit card companies, a locksmith, a mechanic, 879 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: a photo off set company, a stationary store and office 880 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: supply company, temporary office workers, travel agencies, and storage companies 881 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: have all filed claims against Cone and seeking payment. These 882 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: smaller creditors must retain attorneys or bill collectors. It gets 883 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: pretty expensive, particularly since roy relish is a fight for 884 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 1: a relatively small bill, it's often not worth the trouble. 885 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: Rather than pursue Roy, a Manhattan Button Stores swallowed a 886 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,399 Speaker 1: sixty dollar bill. Asked about these unpaid bills, Roy says 887 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,359 Speaker 1: that during his nine year legal battle in New York, 888 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: money's and energy were devoted to survival, and there was 889 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: a total lack of attention to other things, so he 890 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,399 Speaker 1: just didn't pay for anything. And he would be like, yeah, 891 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: you're gonna assume me, But like it's gonna cost you 892 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: more money to assume me than to just accept that 893 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,879 Speaker 1: I'm getting some stuff for free. At what point does 894 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: it go from being civil too criminal though, Like yeah, 895 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 1: theft just he just stot ship when he wanted it. Yes, absolutely, 896 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,479 Speaker 1: that's Roy Cone. He was a tremendous piece of ship. Now, 897 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,280 Speaker 1: Roy was also infamous among his friends for never ordering dinner, 898 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: even when he would take people out to dinner. Instead, 899 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: he would eat the food from the plates of his guests, 900 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 1: grabbing he wanted and taking and again, people, including very 901 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: powerful people Royalty, were just accepted this, like, this is 902 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,359 Speaker 1: what happens when you eat with Roy. He's just going 903 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: to take food off of your plate. And I think 904 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: that was kind of Roy's point. He's a power moves guy. 905 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: He's all about power moves and just like sitting down 906 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: and taking food from someone's plate is that is absolutely 907 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: a power move. Is disgusting. I don't know where you go. 908 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: Then you're sleeping with half of New York weirdo. So power, 909 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: the kind of power that lets you say, take food 910 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,240 Speaker 1: off the table of the Duke of windsor like power 911 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: is what elevated Roy above the other gay men who 912 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: lived in the United States at the time, including the 913 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,839 Speaker 1: ones he's slept with. It's a big part of why 914 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: he didn't consider himself homosexual because homosexuals in this period, 915 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: in Roy's eyes, homosexuals are weak, They're downtrodden, They're an 916 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,360 Speaker 1: oppressed class. And Roy was a powerful man, with a 917 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: thousand men of influence and wealth at his beck and 918 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,359 Speaker 1: call whenever he needed them. For years, this separated Roy 919 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: from the other game, and both in his own head 920 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,399 Speaker 1: and in the heads of his wealthy and powerful conservative friends. Right, 921 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,320 Speaker 1: this is what elevates him. I have elevated myself above 922 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,280 Speaker 1: the you know, I'm I'm not gay because gay people 923 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: are weak and oppressed and I am powerful. That's what 924 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: separates him from them. And because he felt so separated 925 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,319 Speaker 1: from them, Roy took public positions against gay rights even 926 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,839 Speaker 1: after the Lavender Scare. When the City of New York 927 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,040 Speaker 1: proposed legislation that would have provided gay people with protections 928 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: under the law, Roy fought against it on behalf of 929 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 1: his client, the Catholic Church. He argued that the legislation 930 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,880 Speaker 1: would dangerously influence young Americans, possibly turning them gay. At 931 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,160 Speaker 1: one point, Roy was asked by yeah, so sorry. The 932 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,320 Speaker 1: idea that you could just fucking live like a normal life, 933 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,839 Speaker 1: which earn you gay. Fuck you Roy homebuck you so hard. Oh, 934 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: I hope you're writing in hell. At one point, Roy 935 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: was asked by gay rights activists to represent a teacher 936 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,160 Speaker 1: who had been fired for his sexual orientation. He refused, 937 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: and he told them, I believe homosexuals are a grave 938 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: threat to our children and have no business polluting the 939 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: schools of America. Well that's you, you're thinking about yourself. 940 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,520 Speaker 1: But in the end, Roy's power could not save him 941 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 1: from the AIDS epidemic that his good old body Ronald 942 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,560 Speaker 1: Reagan failed completely to control, le or contain. As we 943 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: covered in our episode on the Reagans and AIDS, the 944 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: disease was initially referred to as the gay plague, and 945 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 1: since it only affected homosexuals, it didn't only affect homosexuals, 946 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: but that's what it was seen as. Right Initially, people 947 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,279 Speaker 1: thought this is just something that gay people deal with. 948 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: No one in power really cared about it, with a 949 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 1: notable exception of see Everett Coope, the Surgeon General who 950 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 1: gets some credit. Roy Cone contracted HIV and nineteen eighties six, 951 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 1: most probably from one of the young men he had 952 00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,360 Speaker 1: brought to him every single day. When it became obvious 953 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: that Roy was not just sick, but sick with the 954 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: gay plague, an illness that would irrevocably brand him as 955 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,840 Speaker 1: a gay man in polite society, Roy turned to his 956 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,320 Speaker 1: usual tricks. He lied. He claimed he had liver cancer, 957 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,799 Speaker 1: but the world did not believe him, and the rich 958 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,200 Speaker 1: and powerful men he'd courted and collected all of his 959 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: life abandoned him one by one. Donald Trump stopped taking 960 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: his calls. When Trump was invited to speak at an 961 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: event hosted by the White House, he thanked Ronald Reagan 962 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,440 Speaker 1: for appointing his sister to a judge ship, but didn't 963 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 1: mention Roy Cone at all. Roy was devastated by this. 964 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:07,359 Speaker 1: Donald pisses ice water. He said, oh, oh, for not 965 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:12,720 Speaker 1: mentioning you, Okay, there's so many and for ignoring him. Yeah, 966 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,439 Speaker 1: there's so many great things about Like so often people 967 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,799 Speaker 1: don't get their come up in in their lifetime, you know, 968 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,359 Speaker 1: So for the last years of his life to be 969 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,640 Speaker 1: painful alone, which we already know he didn't like, so 970 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 1: so wonderful. What's what's really appropriate is that he has 971 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,680 Speaker 1: spent his life persecuting gay people as a gay man 972 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,279 Speaker 1: and denying that he is elevating himself above it because 973 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,280 Speaker 1: of his power. And finally, this is like what happens 974 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 1: to Roy at the end of his life, is proof that, 975 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 1: like you know this, you were always a part of 976 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,000 Speaker 1: this community, even though you hated it and persecuted it, 977 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,600 Speaker 1: and you you like the fact that, like, finally, something 978 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,600 Speaker 1: bad was done to them that you couldn't elevate yourself from. 979 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,120 Speaker 1: You could elevate yourself from the persecution, legally, you could 980 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,280 Speaker 1: elevate yourself from that, but you aunt elevate yourself away 981 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,000 Speaker 1: from from a fucking virus. You know, your money could 982 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,640 Speaker 1: not save you here, although it might have if you 983 00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: have thrown some of it into research and help protect 984 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,719 Speaker 1: your brothers and sisters in a very scary time. I 985 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: will also say that it brings me a lot of 986 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,640 Speaker 1: joy that Tony Kushner got to explore this in a 987 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: place because literally, yeah, it's define never to end. It's 988 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,160 Speaker 1: called Angels in America. If you haven't seen Hbos in 989 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,760 Speaker 1: a pretty good rendition of it. Nathan Lane recently played 990 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: him on Broadway, and it's just wonderful. I think that 991 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,080 Speaker 1: the gay community gets an opportunity to constantly be like, no, 992 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,920 Speaker 1: funk that guy, and also to future generations, don't be 993 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 1: that fucking guy. Don't be that fucking guy, because you can't. 994 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,200 Speaker 1: You can't actually funck over your as you said, your 995 00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters and get away with it like you 996 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,319 Speaker 1: will eventually. It's the same thing that happened to It's 997 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:48,960 Speaker 1: kind of in a in some ways, it's the same 998 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,480 Speaker 1: thing that happened to Roy's uncle, like your wealth and 999 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:56,000 Speaker 1: power will only temporarily like elevate you to the ruling class. 1000 00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 1: And as soon as something happens like this, like you 1001 00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,240 Speaker 1: are ut another gay man to them. Are you listening, 1002 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:07,680 Speaker 1: Candice Owens? Do you hear what we're saying. Yeah. As 1003 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,319 Speaker 1: Cone grew sicker and sicker, the law finally caught up 1004 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,760 Speaker 1: with him. He was disbarred by the New York appoll 1005 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,839 Speaker 1: At Court after being convicted on four different counts of facory. 1006 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:17,720 Speaker 1: In one case, he failed to pay back a hundred 1007 00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 1: thousand dollar loan from a client. Losing his license to 1008 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,640 Speaker 1: practice the law was one thing that hurt Roy more 1009 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,160 Speaker 1: than any other blow ever. Could He learned about the 1010 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,879 Speaker 1: judgment watching the nightly news Oddly enough, the only one 1011 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,279 Speaker 1: of Roy's old friends who didn't totally abandon him in 1012 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,280 Speaker 1: his hour of need was Ronald Reagan. UM. Now, Reagan 1013 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: did completely cut social ties with him, but he showed 1014 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: some mercy and approved Roy to be added to the 1015 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 1: testing pool for an experimental AIDS drug. It didn't work, though. 1016 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,120 Speaker 1: On August second, nineteen eight six, Roy mcne died at 1017 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,840 Speaker 1: age fifty nine. The I r S confiscated everything he owned, 1018 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,719 Speaker 1: as he'd wished. Roy died penniless and deeply in debt 1019 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,200 Speaker 1: to the federal government. Roy is not missed by anyone 1020 00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:00,880 Speaker 1: but Donald Trump, but he is remembered. There is a 1021 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,760 Speaker 1: single square in the AIDS Quilt dedicated to Roy m cone. 1022 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:14,479 Speaker 1: His epitaph is three words bully, coward, victim, God, damn it. Yes, yes, yes, 1023 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,799 Speaker 1: well god, I love my community. What a way to 1024 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,560 Speaker 1: just stick it to somebody like, not only did you die, 1025 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,480 Speaker 1: not only do we understand who you were, but we 1026 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:28,919 Speaker 1: still included you in our quilt statements. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1027 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:30,840 Speaker 1: you can't escape that one thing you try to do 1028 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,319 Speaker 1: your whole life. We're going to make sure death you 1029 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,280 Speaker 1: cannot get out of it. Oh funk. That is awesome. 1030 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,759 Speaker 1: That is so awesome. I do not expect a happy 1031 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,279 Speaker 1: ending when we started, but you know, every once in 1032 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: a while, Robert is like, you know what, here's some 1033 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 1: like sprinkle of joy. Friends. This was happy, rewarding. Yeah. 1034 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: The happy part of the ending is that Roy, unlike 1035 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,720 Speaker 1: what I suspect Roger Stone and to some extent, Donald 1036 00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,520 Speaker 1: Trump are going to get away with their crimes. Roy didn't, 1037 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:01,960 Speaker 1: you know, he's the one who's responsible for them, and 1038 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,719 Speaker 1: he did. He died not able to It's not that 1039 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,600 Speaker 1: he died, it's that he died unable to pretend that 1040 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,840 Speaker 1: he wasn't what he was and unable to separate himself 1041 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: from the people that he had attacked and harmed his 1042 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:22,239 Speaker 1: entire life. Well, Rod and hell Roy again, you gigantic 1043 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 1: piece of ship, really bad person, just a just a monster, 1044 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,279 Speaker 1: A class a monster though as monsters go, a very 1045 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:37,040 Speaker 1: fascinating one. Yeah. We were fascinated by the Hitlers and 1046 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,279 Speaker 1: the hannibal Lecters of the world because we don't know 1047 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,799 Speaker 1: how you how did this happen? What quite wrong? And 1048 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:47,279 Speaker 1: uh yeah, I'm just I'm so so so happy that 1049 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,719 Speaker 1: he got what he deserved in the end. And it's 1050 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,359 Speaker 1: It's fascinating to me because we talked about how you know, 1051 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:54,680 Speaker 1: the Red Scare and the Lavender Scare were allowed to 1052 00:54:54,680 --> 00:55:00,239 Speaker 1: continue until Roy and McCarthy picked on a young white 1053 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,440 Speaker 1: man right like like and then it fell apart for them. 1054 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:05,759 Speaker 1: And it's kind of the case that the AIDS epidemic 1055 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,360 Speaker 1: was allowed to completely rage out of control and no 1056 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,560 Speaker 1: one in power cared until like young white boys who 1057 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,080 Speaker 1: had hemophili started getting AIDS and then people had to 1058 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,000 Speaker 1: deal with it. Um. It's just I mean that through 1059 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,400 Speaker 1: line is so consistent in American history that like, we 1060 00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,720 Speaker 1: will ignore this problem until it affects like fresh faced 1061 00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,040 Speaker 1: white boys, and then then we'll start to deal with 1062 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:29,840 Speaker 1: it because reason exactly the reason we have to constantly 1063 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,480 Speaker 1: be in their face about it because know it's impacting 1064 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:38,440 Speaker 1: my life. Now, Yes, deal with it. Stuff, good stuff, 1065 00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:43,040 Speaker 1: Roy Cone, fun story. Yeah. I really do recommend both 1066 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,400 Speaker 1: Bully Coward Victim, the documentary about Roy and uh, Where's 1067 00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:51,040 Speaker 1: My Roy Cone? The other documentary. Now they're they're actually 1068 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,719 Speaker 1: both very good. And Roy is you just look at 1069 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,600 Speaker 1: the man's face, you can like it's not like you 1070 00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,400 Speaker 1: could if you met him on the streaming like that 1071 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,040 Speaker 1: is a person, and I need to stay the funk 1072 00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,880 Speaker 1: away from No. Clearly, I was looking when we were 1073 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,040 Speaker 1: talking about Donald Trump in his twenties and then we 1074 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:10,080 Speaker 1: were talking about David and like all of that. I 1075 00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:11,800 Speaker 1: was like, well, what did Roy look like in his twenties? 1076 00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,759 Speaker 1: He looked like an old man. Yeah, he looks like 1077 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,040 Speaker 1: he looks like a ghoul. He's a gollum, he's a monster. 1078 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,839 Speaker 1: You've been through too much, Roy, because you clearly there's 1079 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,839 Speaker 1: no youthfulness in you. There's no none of that, like, oh, 1080 00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,560 Speaker 1: young Spryan Guide's twenty here. You know you were just 1081 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,680 Speaker 1: born an old, crotchety man with hate in your heart. 1082 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:40,600 Speaker 1: And that's sad. Yeah, he's he's just a bad person anyway, Joel, Yes, 1083 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:46,799 Speaker 1: how do you feel about Roy Cone? No, not at all. 1084 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,319 Speaker 1: But I do feel enriched by his story. I do 1085 00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:54,120 Speaker 1: feel able to better target some of the assholes that 1086 00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,520 Speaker 1: are currently running ship and be like, oh, I'm seeing 1087 00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,799 Speaker 1: the direct line, I'm seeing the ship's kind of pool. 1088 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:05,200 Speaker 1: Did that? The extent to which Roy Cone taught Donald 1089 00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:11,280 Speaker 1: Trump everything he knows and Roger Stone is really remarkable 1090 00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,360 Speaker 1: to me because it is and it's an effective strategy. 1091 00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,120 Speaker 1: It's one of those things. There's this um if you 1092 00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 1: talk about um like military strait and not like grand 1093 00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,680 Speaker 1: strategy but like actual like like tactical level combat. Here's 1094 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:29,120 Speaker 1: this thing called the ODA loop, which is observed, orient, decide, act, 1095 00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,080 Speaker 1: and it's it's a it's an acronym for the series 1096 00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,400 Speaker 1: of decisions you go through in like a dangerous situation. 1097 00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,600 Speaker 1: In order to like, like you're being shot at, you 1098 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:39,800 Speaker 1: have to like see who's shooting at you, orient yourself, 1099 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:41,840 Speaker 1: figure out like where they are where you are, decide 1100 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:43,880 Speaker 1: what to do in response, and then do it. And 1101 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,240 Speaker 1: that's how you respect. Like going through that ODA loop 1102 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,320 Speaker 1: is how you respond effectively to violence. And part of 1103 00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:53,000 Speaker 1: successfully winning combat in that sort of sense is to 1104 00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,160 Speaker 1: disrupt the opponent's ODA loop, stop them from either seeing 1105 00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,280 Speaker 1: what's happening, which is why you have we use like 1106 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,120 Speaker 1: a smoke grenade, stop them from oriented themselves, stop them 1107 00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,720 Speaker 1: from deciding what to do, or stop them from acting. 1108 00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:05,760 Speaker 1: You have to disrupt that ODOR loop. And it's the 1109 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:09,240 Speaker 1: same thing in any sort of confrontation. And Roy's strategy 1110 00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,240 Speaker 1: and the strategy that Donald Trump picked up from him, 1111 00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,960 Speaker 1: is to be constantly disrupting that loop in his opponents 1112 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,560 Speaker 1: that's what You're always on the attack. That's why you 1113 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,480 Speaker 1: never respond to anything they say. That's why you never 1114 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,000 Speaker 1: answer any of the questions they raised about you. You 1115 00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,480 Speaker 1: just keep making more attacks because if they attack you back, 1116 00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,960 Speaker 1: they're wanting you to respond, and if you ignore that 1117 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,840 Speaker 1: and just throw another hit out at them, you can 1118 00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,360 Speaker 1: disrupt them, get them off balance, and that's how you win. Um, 1119 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,560 Speaker 1: it's very effective. It's effective in the moment, but I 1120 00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,520 Speaker 1: think as we're seeing with Donald Trump long term, unless 1121 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,280 Speaker 1: you happen to have like work one level genius, you 1122 00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,760 Speaker 1: just can't. It doesn't stand up like it doesn't eventually 1123 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:51,560 Speaker 1: people are like, okay, but we do need to solve Yeah, 1124 00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,600 Speaker 1: like the reason we came here. You you eventually run 1125 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:57,280 Speaker 1: into a problem that you can't defeat that way. And 1126 00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,520 Speaker 1: actually for both Roy Cohne and for Donald Trump, it 1127 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,800 Speaker 1: was a virus us right, like the AIDS virus, Like 1128 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,360 Speaker 1: you can't you can't attack the AIDS virus like you 1129 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,120 Speaker 1: can't yell at it into submission, you can't scare it. 1130 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:10,920 Speaker 1: And there's the same thing with the with the coronavirus, 1131 00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,840 Speaker 1: you can't. There's only so far lying can get you. 1132 00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:18,720 Speaker 1: With a virus um, and now I'm thinking about just 1133 00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:23,520 Speaker 1: the role of fear and how just a combination of 1134 00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:29,200 Speaker 1: ignorance and fear has totally warped our country multiple times, 1135 00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:35,400 Speaker 1: like almost systemically throughout its existence. Has been fundamentally changed 1136 00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,680 Speaker 1: by the fact that people didn't know enough, and then 1137 00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,840 Speaker 1: we're horrified to try to do anything to stop it. 1138 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,320 Speaker 1: I mean, the only reason Trump got in the first 1139 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:47,240 Speaker 1: time is information and fear and greed on behalf of 1140 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:53,200 Speaker 1: the media because he was good for business. Yeah yeah, yeah, stuff, 1141 00:59:55,760 --> 01:00:02,800 Speaker 1: take a nap now that awful. Okay, thanks for being 1142 01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:09,720 Speaker 1: on um. This has been behind the bastards. I don't know, go, 1143 01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, like something on fire whatever, be you 1144 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:19,439 Speaker 1: live your truth, so let your roy Cone don't do that. Yeah, 1145 01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:23,120 Speaker 1: all right, we're done.