WEBVTT - Going, going, Ghosn - with Joe Nocera 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:03.400 Thank you so much for downloading making a killing. I'm 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.960 Bethany McClain, and I'm cutting through the noise to reframe 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:10.240 the stories you know and uncover the ones you don't know. 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.640 Truth is stranger than fiction. I think about that saying 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.040 a lot, because it has the great virtue of being 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.520 well true, and it's particularly true when it comes to 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.600 the world of business. I mean, from the financial crisis 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:27.240 to Bernie Madoff, you could not make the stuff up 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:30.680 even with that high bar. The story of Carlos Gone 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:34.000 stands out. Gone, of course, is the former head of 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:38.760 Nissan Motor and Renault. He is was a revered figure 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.120 in the automotive world. In the fall of twenty eighteen, 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.920 he was jailed in Japan on charges of financial misconduct. 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.880 While he was out on bail, he hatched an escape 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.839 plan that involved being smuggled out of the country, escaping 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.280 security by hiding in a large black box, which, thank goodness, 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.200 apparently did have breathing holes cut in it. He's now 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.040 living in a pink mansion in Lebanon, a pink mansion 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:06.000 that Nissan had bought and renovated for his use. I mean, right, 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.360 talk about truth being stranger than fiction. So there are 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:12.080 at least two sides to this story. The official version, 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.000 the Japanese version, is that Gone stole from Nissan, partly 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:20.000 by paying himself more than anyone, including investors new Here's 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:24.160 a surprise. Going denies those charges. In his telling, Nissan's 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.280 Japanese executives wanted to be rid of him and found 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.640 a horrible way to do it. I have not fled justice, 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.280 I have escaped injustice and political persecution, Go and said 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:39.440 in a statement after his escape. For sure, Japan treat's 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:43.000 white color criminals very differently than the US does. Among 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:47.200 other things, Gone was held in solitary confinement and interrogated 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.120 for eight hours a day. The conviction rate is close 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:53.840 to one. My longtime friend Jonah Sarah wrote in a 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.320 recent Bloomberg piece that Gone thought to himself, you are 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.800 going to die in Japan if you don't get out, 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.800 So Gone took matters into his own hands. Is this 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.840 justifiable or is this a sign of the entitlement of 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.480 the global elite? And who is Carlos Going an innocent 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:15.680 man wrongly accused or a common thief. I began this 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.440 season of making a killing with Joan Oh Sarah talking 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.440 about Jewel, So it seemed fitting to end it with Joe, 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.000 who wrote this about Carlos going. When you get right 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:29.000 down to it, Nissan and the Japanese prosecutors put a rich, 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.320 powerful man, a man unaccustomed to being defied through hell. 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.640 Now that he has escaped, it's his turn to put 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.400 them through hell. I'm thrilled to have Joe here to 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.240 talk about what will surely go down in history is 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.959 one of the greatest business stories ever. Certainly one of 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.600 the greatest escapes ever, that's for sure. So how did 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:50.760 he do it? Let's start with that. Well, the best 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:55.040 part about that as nobody yet knows. There's only I mean, 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.000 for instance, you know, when you think about it, if 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.280 you make an escape like that, you have to plan 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:06.000 it for months, right months? How did he find the 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.840 guy who planned it? How did they how did they 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.320 communicate with each other? Well? Wait on that question, is 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:12.720 it even a guy who planned it or do we 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.399 think it might have been his wife? Oh? No, no, no, no, no, 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.040 well I'm pretty sure it wasn't his wife. No, there's 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.519 a there's a man who's a you know, a former 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.720 paramilitary type who does security these kind of high risk 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.959 security Michael Taylor. Right, Yes, that's right. His name is 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.800 Michael Taylor. Thank you. So how did Michael Taylor get 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.639 in touched with Carlos Gone? How did they plan it 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:36.680 so that Gone knew what to do and when to 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:41.080 do it? Um, it's obvious that they had They had 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:46.200 come to Japan and they were watching the people who 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:50.040 were watching Gone. So there was a there was a 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.040 camera that watched them all the time, and there were 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.800 people out Japanese you know, security guards outside. But they 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.320 realized that there was a certain week in the year 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.920 when the Japanese basically took the week off because it 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.120 was a you know, their high holidays, they're big vacation time, 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.880 and they weren't there, and they figured that out and 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.880 they realized that that was potentially the time to do it. 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:18.039 And so, you know, the first round of rumors, who 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.600 was I'm so sorry it wasn't true, was that he 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.320 had he had hidden in a in a in a 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:31.400 musical instrument case for like for a double base doesn't 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.880 but you know, it's kind of pretty amazing what he did. 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.239 He he walked out, he put one of those masks 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.479 around his face, as many Japanese people do when their outdoors. 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.039 You know, he walked about a mile, he walked into 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.440 a hotel and then he walked out to the other 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:50.000 side of the hotel um presumably not being followed, obviously 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:52.159 not being followed. And then he got on a train. Wow. 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.160 And he and he took like a three hour train 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.880 ride to Osaka. And once he got there, that's when 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:03.040 he was met. This team of people who put him 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:07.320 in this big black box, put him on that line alone, 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.000 this team of people who put him in a big 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.599 black box, righty, and they put him on an airplane, 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:15.080 a private airplane. They didn't want to fly directly to 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.359 Berute because they were afraid that that would send up 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.920 too many signals. So there was an istanbol right and 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.600 then he had to get past you know, customs, a 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.400 second round of customs. Having sneaked past the Japanese customs, 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.400 then he had to get past the Turkish customs. So 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.040 we went back in the black box. They took him 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.680 out of one airplane, put him in another airplane, and 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:40.920 he landed in Lebanon. And Lebanon presumably he can't be extradited. Well, 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.839 Lebanon does not have an extradition treaty with Japan. Also, 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:49.039 he is a Lebanese citizen among his other citizenships. He 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.599 is a highly revered figure in Lebanon. They even have 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.160 a postage stamp named after him. I mean, he's one 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.000 of their few kind of international businessman. They don't have 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.360 very many. And then his wife met him also in Lebanon, 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.240 so she obviously knew what was going on. So she 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.200 goes to Lebanon. And then the hilarious thing is he 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:10.920 you know that this is one of the houses that 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:17.440 he had refurbished, renovated Nissons die. Now the question is 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.640 whether Nissan knew that or not. But he's basically he's 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:25.120 squatting in it, and he's kind of daring Nissan to 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:26.560 try and kick him out. And is it true that 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.920 it's pink? I don't know why that details definitely think 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.200 it's definitely. I've seen it from the archide. But see, 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:33.000 this is why I asked the question about whether his 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.400 wife was involved, because his wife met him there, so 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.159 she had to have known. Yes, that's absolutely true. She 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.360 had to have known something for sure. But don't forget 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.800 that he had not been one of the things that 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.040 most upset him during his ordeal. And I'm sure, we'll 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.560 talk about that ordeal in a bit is that he is. 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:57.039 Part of his bail, he was not allowed to speak 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:02.240 to his wife at all, and his children really, at 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.279 least one of them couldn't come to Japan because she 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.839 was afraid she'd be arrested too, So he didn't have 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.360 a lot of contact with his family. He Wanda spoke 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.480 speaking to his wife twice with permission and with people 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:18.760 listening in. Once was around Thanksgiving and once was around Christmas. 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:20.560 We're going to come back to the conditions of his 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.000 bail and the conditions of his treatment because it's important 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.200 both in the micro and interesting in the macro. But 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.520 what's really interesting about this is we know the details 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.280 of the escape, but we have no clue how it 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.360 was planned. And listening to you talk about the monitoring 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.000 of his conversations with his wife, how did he manage 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.680 to have communication with the people who helped him escape 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.520 if everything he said was being monitored. When he was 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.320 in the home that he was using in Japan in Tokyo, 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.360 he was not allowed to have any electronics, no internet, 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.280 no television, no nothing. But when he but during the 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.040 day he was allowed to go to his lawyer's office 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.240 where he did to have access to a computer and 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.800 did meet with people, and he didn't meet people were 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.200 allowed to come and meet with him. So presumably that's 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:12.800 how it was done in person or possibly over the internet, 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.680 when he was at his lawyer's office. Although his lawyers 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.120 says he knows nothing, I'm not sure his lawyer didn't 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:22.320 know nothing. I'm sure his lawyer. Jampan is a country 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:26.600 where face matters so much, yep. And he humiliated his 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.400 lawyers by doing this. His lawyers had vouched for him, 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:34.280 and his lawyers were trying to show through his trial 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:40.280 that a Westerner could get a fair trial. That was 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.040 their goal. And you know, they one of the very 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.120 tiny handful of big time defense attorneys. I mean in 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:48.720 the US they're all over the place, but in Japan 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.720 they're very rare. And this was a moment for these 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:56.440 lawyers to try and make the case that Japan could 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.920 treat a Westerner fairly. I just wanted to pause on 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:00.800 this note, for it was from the Wall Street Journal 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.280 and they wrote that the planning involved a team of 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.800 between ten and fifteen people of different nationalities, and that 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:08.920 in all the team took more than twenty trips to 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.800 Japan and visited at least ten Japanese airports before selecting 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.600 the Osaka Airport as a week link. I mean, it's 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.839 a stunning degree of coordination. Right before we move on 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.680 from this, Michael Taylor, this operative who helped Going. He's 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.080 a story in his own right, isn't he? He is 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.280 He's done this a few times before. He's actually been 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:31.400 in prison for something, um, you know, and and yes 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.560 he when when the when the film gets made, Michael 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.760 Taylor will have a starring role forre. You can just 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.880 see that this is everything about this is cinematic, right right, 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.400 get right down to the black boxman. In fact, where's rumors? 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.200 Wall Street Journal pointed a rumor that, uh, Carlos Gone 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:51.600 was already in negotiations with Netflix, but he denied it. 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.800 He denied it, So tell tell me more about who 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.960 Carlos Gone is. For people who don't, who haven't followed 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.200 the craziness in the automotive industry, one way to think 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.720 about it, Carlos Gone is the Lee Iacocca of the 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:10.760 modern era, the larger than life auto exac who performs 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.439 miracles and does is that is that real? To some degree? 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:18.040 It is, yes, So he's hard, is what happened. Carlos 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:23.200 Gone was the CEO and chairman of Renault, a French company. Ye, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.280 Nissan is in terrible, terrible trouble, and so they go 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.720 to him and they ask him to what could he 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.800 do to help them? So what he does is he 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:39.320 sets up It's not a merger, it's an alliance. They 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:44.200 remain separate companies, but they do things like they buy 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.520 supplies together, and they do some back office things that 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:52.360 save money, and they coordinate in various ways. They actually 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.000 even for a long time split up territories. So like 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.440 Nissan was big in the US, Renault was big in Europe. 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.960 They both went to China and you know, I said 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.360 he was Lee a Coca. A better phrase might be 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.120 he was the Marshal Tito of the of the auto business. 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.080 Because what you had was you had this very French 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:18.959 culture Renault, this extremely Japanese culture Nissan, and you had 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:24.360 this one guy who somehow managed to ride herd over 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:28.760 all of it. So then Nissan didn't. He did turn 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:32.600 Nissan around. I mean it was really quite dramatic, to 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.680 the point where Nissan became the stronger of the two. 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.679 Companies and Renault became the weaker, but because of the 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:44.440 way the alliance was structured, Renault owned more of Nissan, 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.559 like fifteen percent. Then Nissan owned a Renault which was 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.160 five percent. So one of the things, one of them 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.719 that began to upset the Japanese not the only thing, 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.040 but one of the things was that Renault, which had 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:01.880 become the weaker company, still add the stronger position on 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.920 the board and in terms of stock ownership, and so 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.920 do you credit do most people credit Nissan's ability to 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.000 thrive to Carlos Scone and he is he that guy 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.000 who was able to pull these companies through an incredibly 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.160 troubled and difficult time in the automotive industry globally, Most 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:22.280 people do give him that credit. Yes, he's viewed as 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.199 as a as a as a true giant of the AutoWorld, 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.720 to the point where as he as he noted during 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.600 his flamboyant press conference, once he escaped. You know, Steve 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.520 Rattner approached him during the financial crisis when he was 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.600 the autos Are Obama's artos Are and asked him if 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.040 he would be willing to come in and take over 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:46.360 General Motors. Wow, Okay, so this guy, he doesn't lack 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.679 for ego either. So well, I do have to say, yes, 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:56.079 if you've if you've been around CEOs, there's a certain type, 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:01.280 you know, larger than life, totally convinced they're right about everything. 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:06.079 Sometimes they're all never in doubt, exactly exactly. Um but really, 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.480 um kind of aggressive he was? He is was all 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:14.320 of those things. Um uh. And yeah, you could sort 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.440 of see how he would drive the Japanese mad. And 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.280 before we come back to that, wasn't he trying to 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.480 do something with fat and Chrysler? He was trying to 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.600 pull off yet another coup, right, Yes he was. He 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:29.280 had already um brought me to Beish into the alliance. Okay, Um, 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.000 he was, you know, maneuvering to bring other people into 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.320 other companies into the alliance. But the big issue really 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:39.439 really for Nissan was they felt that he was going 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.400 to not just have an alliance, but he was going 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.160 to merge Nissan and Renault and they were dead set 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.760 against that. And why because they perceived Nissan is a 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.960 stronger company, or because of Japanese pride and Nissan not 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.360 wanting to see it submerged or subsumed into Renauld. Both 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.520 is the answer. Um, you know they're they're you know, 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:04.679 the Pese. There were xenophobic people, without question, and um uh, 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.880 there were a lot of tensions within the alliance even 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.880 you know, before this this came up, the idea of 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.080 a merger, and yes, Nissan felt like, we're the king 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.600 of the hill. Now, why should we stoop to help, 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.040 you know, struggling we're now. Yeah, I just saw this 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.520 note in here that six years after after after Gone 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.120 took the top job, Nissan had surpassed Honda to become 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:30.160 Japan's number two automaker. It's market capitalization had quintupled and 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:34.200 its operating margin had risen tenfold. So that I mean, 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.160 as I and in the modern world, that's how you 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.800 become a legend. Yeah, I guess that's true. So were 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.280 there any whispers about him up until the fall of 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:46.120 twenty eighteen? Was there any talk that this guy was 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.000 somehow overstepping some kind of bounds or was the fall 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.200 of twenty and eighteen, when it all exploded out of 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.920 seemingly nowhere, there was not so much as a whisper 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.200 in terms of, you know, whether people thought he was 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.320 doing things on the fly or on the side, or 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.680 or or playing tricks or playing games. It was one 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.320 of the things that were so shocking about this story 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.280 is it's it's it's as if Mary Barra flew to 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.800 Canada and was was was arrested for you know, uh, 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.120 stealing from General Motors. That's how kind of shocking this was. 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.560 And the way they did it, you know, um, the 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:31.000 Japanese Nissan executives who were plotting this with prosecutors and 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:36.480 that that is why. Oh yes, there's no question about that. Um, 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:42.120 you know. They they they tricked Goons former number two 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.840 into flying back to Japan, which he had not done 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.600 in three years and was awaiting back surgery. Wow, they 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.240 tricked him. An old friend of his from Nissan called 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.720 him and said, hey, we really need to hear for 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.000 this meeting. We really come on, We'll send the private 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.720 plane and they did, and he lands and he gets arrested, 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.520 and then gone has no idea this is coming. He 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.280 lands and he gets arrested, and that's where they find out, 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.640 and that's where the world finds out that there are 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.400 these allegations against him. Truth is stranger than fiction, indeed, right, 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.880 it's it's it's it's an astonishing story. One of the 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.040 problems with trying to grapple with the story is that 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:29.120 it's really hard to know even now who's telling the truth. 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.120 Why is it so hard to know? His compensation was public? Right? 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.120 These were public companies, and so what was disclosed is 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.440 knowable and what he took is knowable. Where does the 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.560 complexity come in? Okay? Maybe pause first on what the 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.520 charges against him. So there's a couple of things. The 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:53.520 first charge is that he hid compensation from Nissan and 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.720 the board. This seems frankly pretty unlikely, although he did 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:03.520 settle with the sec for small, by his terms, a 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:08.240 small amount of money, um without uh, you know, denying. 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.200 Was it affirming or denying the charges? Yes, but the 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.080 exact language was that they he settled charges that that 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:17.240 he and Nissan had failed to disclose more than one 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.800 hundred and forty million in compensation and benefits due to 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.080 be paid to him in retirement. Right, So that hundred 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.720 So that one hundred and forty million is a big 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.560 is a big sticking point. So he and his former 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.000 number two, his name is Greg Kelly, they say there 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.720 was they had not signed off on the deal yet, 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.080 that that they had they had sketched it out along 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.399 with some Nissan executives. They had all sketched it out together, 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:47.000 but there was no uh guarantee it was going to happen. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.440 It had not been um uh, it had not been certified, 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.960 had not been approved by the board, and so they 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:57.520 say there's no there there. Nissan says, you know, this 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.480 was that you were doing this behind our back, and 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.520 in so doing you were violating the Japanese law. Okay, 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:08.080 So that's number one. Number two the second set of 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:12.240 charges was that he was, you know, an effect laundering, 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.880 laundering Nissan's money to put it in his pocket. So 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.639 the big example of that that when they he uses 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:24.720 is um that there was a dealer in the Middle 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:29.520 East and Nissan paid this dealer millions of dollars and then, 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:34.040 according to Nissan, the dealer somehow funneled that back some 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:39.199 of that back to Carlos Gone. Gone says it was 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:42.040 all on the up and up, that the money that 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.680 was spent to this Midias dealer, who he acknowledges was 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.600 a friend, was not unlike any you know, up front 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:53.119 incentives to any dealer. So he says, you know, that 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:54.800 was on the up and up, and then the third 0:18:55.240 --> 0:19:00.119 sort of set of charges. Um, it's really more like 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:05.760 Dennis Kozlowski's uh six thousand dollars curtain shower curtain. Yes, 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.360 that's right, it's more like that, which was not illegal, right, 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:13.520 but it was a waste of corporate assets. And so 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.719 he had these houses, you know, literally like five houses 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.400 that were all renovated for him on Nissan's dime, all 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:25.000 supposedly owned by Nissan. His kids all went to Stanford 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.000 on Nissan's dime. His kids cut and went to Stanford 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:29.879 on Nissan's dime. Well, but I want to figure out 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:32.000 how to work that one that that you really I 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.800 mean he had that in his contract, okay, but they 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.560 would pay for it. And then the famous, most famous 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:41.200 of all, the birthday party for his wife and Versailles 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.480 Marie Antoinette teamed right yes, and then he goes at 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.080 the press conference he gave, he really went off on that. 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.960 It's like, we've spent so much money helping Versailles, making 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.400 Rascaille great, Versaids the place everybody wants to go. Rasaide's 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.080 good for our customers, it's good for our you know, 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.439 ad agencies. Da da da da da da dada so 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.640 he somehow argue, we're defensive about at Versailles. I think 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.320 that every any single other thing that he spoke about. 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:10.560 So he somehow argues that hosting a Marie Antoinette themed 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.800 birthday party for his wife at Versailles was beneficial to 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.480 Nissan's brand pretty much. But I don't I don't know 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.640 that it was Marie Antoinette. Okay, I've read that somewhere 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:21.639 that might that might that might be like that, like 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.040 the musical instrument case right, too good to be true? 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.080 Um So, so what does Renault say about all of this, 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:29.679 because they you would think they would have a view too. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.080 Are they on Nissan's site or are they going no 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:37.800 is uh Arna doesn't know what to do, to be honest. 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:45.600 Um Nau's main concern, especially at the beginning, was to 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.879 shore up the alliance and not let the alliance fall apart. 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:52.800 For the most part, that is a losing battle because 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.919 without going at the top, the culture classes have gotten 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.719 worse and worse. The board disagreements have gotten worse and worse. 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:02.600 And I do have to wonder whether whether the alliance 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:04.760 can survive or not, which it will be really bad 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.679 for a no UM in terms of in terms of 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:13.000 Carlos Gone, they have sort of been tiptoeing towards the 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:18.480 idea that maybe there was some wrongdoing, but they haven't. 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:23.080 They haven't really come out and laid out a set 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.719 of allegations the way Nissan did. Okay, so it's still unclear. 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:31.639 I mean, it's really complicated for the French because France 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.800 is in a very anti elitist mood right now. Makran, 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.760 the president is viewed as an elitist, Carlos Gone is 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:43.480 viewed as an elitist. In a different era, it's quite 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:47.560 possible the French would have gone, you know, to great 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.560 Lance to spring him from prison, but not today. But 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:54.160 not today, they just kind of kept their mouth shut 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.119 and really didn't hasn't done much of anything, great Kelly, 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:00.440 what's happened to him? Um? Nothing so far are which 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:02.440 he's still in jail and no, no, no, no, no. 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.080 He was. He was out on bail just as Carlos 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:10.719 Gohne was awaiting his trial, just as Carlos Gone was. Um. 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:12.840 There was some fear that he would be thrown back 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:15.560 in jail as as kind of punishment or revenge for 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.640 gons escape. But that does not appear to have happened, 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:24.639 and um, you know, on the one hand, this is 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.200 kind of rough for him because obviously he's not gonna 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:29.560 he's not gonna get out of Japan anytime soon. But 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:35.520 on the other hand, this doubles the The Japanese are 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:37.600 going to have a really hard time saying this guy 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:40.160 should go to jail for twenty years when the ring 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:44.000 leader quote unquote has escaped Lebanon, So that actually may 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.160 work out for him. So back to this point about 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:49.800 how Carlos Gone was treated in prison. Tell us about 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:52.600 the conditions first of all. Okay, so let me begin 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:56.800 by saying that there's a there's a phrase for how 0:22:56.880 --> 0:23:00.440 the Japanese deal with people are accusing of crimes. It's 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:05.400 called hostage justice. And the idea is that the Japanese 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:10.119 are not looking for evidence, They're looking for confessions. And 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:14.000 that's the way the system works. And so and that's 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:16.960 why they have a ninety nine conviction rate because most 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:20.080 of the time when they go to court, the persons confessed. 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:23.439 And the way they get do you confess is you know, 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:29.280 um eleven and twelve hours of interrogation a day, uh 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:34.760 no lawyer present um lights on twenty four seven. Um, 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.680