WEBVTT - Changes at the Top 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.400 Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:14.000 stuff What's dot Com? Hello everybody, and welcome to tech Stuff. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:15.840 My name is Chris Polettin. I'm an editor at how 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:18.560 Stuff works dot com. Sitting across from me as usual 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.320 as senior writer Jonathan Strickland. Hey there, so, um so, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.080 there's been some interesting news in technology towards the end 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.840 of two thousand twelve. We're seeing some some big changes 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.839 coming along at the executive level with a couple of 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:37.520 notable companies. Those notable companies being Apple and Microsoft. Of course, 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:39.600 we're seeing changes at other companies as well, but we 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:42.960 wanted to specifically talk about those two companies and uh 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.720 two of the executives that have been playing a very 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.400 large role in products at those companies and and what 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.720 their departure might mean. Yeah, that that's correct. As a 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:57.880 matter of fact, there are more than just on the surface. 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:02.480 It appears that there are surf this m I walked 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:07.039 into that one. Uh yeah, yeah, there are some quite 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.560 a few similarities between the two the two main people 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.840 were going to talk about um today and uh in 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.440 in kind of striking ways because the proximity or the 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.440 the time, the closeness and time between the two departure 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:28.200 has led a lot of UH analysts to look at 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.360 the similarities and differences between them and it's and it's 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.440 really kind of amazing. Yeah. The two people were speaking 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:38.640 of specifically are Scott Forstall, formerly of Apple and Steven 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.280 Snowski formerly of Microsoft. Actually, I should say Forestall currently 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.319 is still with Apple, but in an advisory capacity, not 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.600 an executive capacity. But at any rate, both of these 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:54.040 these gentlemen were high level executives with their respective companies. 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:59.760 Both of them had had not long before the announced 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.920 parture of the of each of them had been on 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:09.480 stage revealing products, big, big products for their respective companies. 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:14.680 Both men had been with their respective companies for many years. Uh. 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.560 In the case, well, well let's start with Scott Forestall. 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.040 Then he was the one who was announced that he'd 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:23.320 be leaving Apple earlier. I mean that was in the 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.239 end of October two thousand twelve when that announcement came out. 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.680 That's right, he and John Browitt both at the same 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:34.160 time Apple announced that the two would be leaving the company. Now, 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.800 Mr Browitt is or uh you know, known for the 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.520 Apple retail presence, right, and he had not been in 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.760 that position for very long. Tim Cook apparently felt that 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:46.440 it was just a bad fit. That it was, it 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.680 was a bad higher and for that particular role. And 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.120 so that was Browitt leaving. But whereas Brown had not 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.720 been with a company for very long, Forrestall had been 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.480 with the company. Actually had been. Steve Jobs is on. 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:03.639 Steve was his team way back in the Next Incorporated days, 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.200 and his role at Apple. I don't think I actually 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.799 mentioned it was senior vice president of iOS software. So 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:16.600 we're talking about the big big stuff mobile iPhone, iPad, 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.120 that kind of thing that I bod touch and is 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:23.720 the operating system and and those mobile devices account for 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:28.880 about seventy percent of Apple's revenue. So that's that's like, yeah, 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.720 it is hard to exaggerate that that how important that is, 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.000 especially when you start looking at those sales figures. Well, 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:42.160 Forrestall had been with Apple since Apple acquired Next Incorporated. 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:44.400 And I guess we can do just a real quick 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:46.600 summary of that for those who have not listened to 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.600 our episodes about Steve Jobs. Um. So, Steve Jobs had 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:54.800 left Apple after having some friction with the top level 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.200 executives at that time, and went on to found a 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:02.080 different company called Next in Core Rated, mainly trying to 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:07.120 develop computers for educational purposes. Uh. And then Apple once 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:12.240 it started to really suffer financially. I mean Apple was 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.960 in dire straits and not the band. Yeah, they were. 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.479 They were frequently mentioned with the word beleaguered in front 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.479 of their name. They suggested that they were on a 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:26.000 sinking ship. Yes, they certainly did not have money for nothing, 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:31.360 but they ended up acquiring They purchased the company Next Incorporated, 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:33.599 and a lot of people said at the time that 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.039 they were really buying Steve Jobs back. They weren't buying 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:38.560 the company so much as they were trying to get 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:42.240 Steve Jobs back into the fold at Apple, and Steve 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.160 Jobs ended up taking over as a an inter rom 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.479 CEO and then eventually became this the full time CEO 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.400 of Apple and on his team at Next Incorporated with 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.680 Scott Forstall, who had worked for Next Incorporated straight out 0:04:55.720 --> 0:05:00.279 of college. So Uh Forrestall joined Next Incorporate and he 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:04.479 came over with Apple UH to Apple when Apple purchased 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:08.799 Next Incorporated and began to work at various departments and 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:15.839 was was known for being a passionate member of the 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:21.720 executive team. UM. He was the youngest executive over at 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.520 Apple at the time that he was asked to leave, 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:29.880 and um, yeah, it was an interesting he was an 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.960 interesting personality over an Apple. One of the things that 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.800 I read, one of the reasons I read that he 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:39.400 had been asked to leave, uh, had more to do 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.960 with personality issues than anything else. Um. Now we can 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.000 say that this year two thousand twelve, when they did 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.280 announce a lot of the changes to iOS as well 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:55.360 as the new iPhone, there were some some hiccups in that, 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.520 the main one being I have no idea where I 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.160 am right now because my Maps app tells me that 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.679 the bridge I'm looking at is actually two miles away. Yeah. 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:12.680 The nice um. Yeah. The the the maps application for 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:17.760 the iOS devices has been uh, to to put it, bluntly, 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.320 picked on for its inaccuracies. There there are many problems 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:25.520 with it. Um. And Apple has um you know, and 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:30.120 its typical fashion sort of at first pretended that that 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.360 wasn't the case and then basically saying, well, we goofed 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.640 it like your first it was you're traveling wrong, yeah, 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.599 And then it was okay, maybe this isn't as fully 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.120 baked as we had hoped. And in fact I mean, 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.560 this was This was big news when it happened. Happened 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:50.760 Tim Cook. When it happened, Uh, yeah, someone needs some coffee. 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.400 CEO Tim Cook issued an apology for the Maps app 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.600 for for how it was not performing up to their standards. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:05.240 This was a big deal because Apple never apologizes, Um, 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.159 very rarely apologizes. Yeah, it's when I say never. It 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:12.360 is an exaggeration, but it lightly yeah only yeah, just barely. 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:17.680 Well anyway, One of the things I read, which may 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:21.160 or may not be true, was from the Wall Street Journal, 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:26.239 which suggested that Tim Cook wanted for Stall to sign 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.440 the apology letter because Forrestall was the guy who was 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.800 in charge of iOS, and Forstall said nothing doing ain't 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.600 gonna do it. That's not how Steve Jobs do it. 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.240 That's not how I'm going to do it. And um, 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:43.120 and that might have been one of the flags raised 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.400 at the executive level with Forstall was that, you know, 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.840 he he was unwilling to sign his name to an apology, 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:51.880 and Tim Cook ended up signing his own name to 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.320 the apology and issuing it out. Now whether or not 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.400 that's true is impossible for us to say, because this 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:01.480 is all based on what various Apple employees have said 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:05.960 to the press, but there's never been an official statement, 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:08.840 and you wouldn't expect one to come out like you 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.200 wouldn't expect Tim Cook to say, well, I wanted him 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.080 to sign us and he didn't, so I fired him. 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.880 That that probably would never, in any sane world ever 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.040 be said. Yeah, although the New York Times did UH 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:25.560 did also make that argument. Yes, um yeah, And in 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:29.760 an article on the bits blog, Nick Wingfield and Nick 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:34.320 Bilton UH said that that had also been told to 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.600 them as well. Um, and I haven't heard, for that matter, 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:45.800 I haven't heard an Apple executive deny it formally. Um. So, 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:47.920 so yeah, there may be there may be some fire 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.040 with that smoke. Well, and and it's possible to that 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.120 that it could be a combination of all of these factors. Yeah. 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:59.360 I don't mean to suggest that one flubbed app was 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.400 enough to you to oust an executive who had been 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.439 with the company for so long. In fact, there were 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.400 other issues. There was one that apparently there was a 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:17.200 philosophical debate that centers around the idea of design at Apple, 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.560 and there were two sides, two main sides to this battle. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.680 On one side, you had people like Scott Forstall, who 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:30.920 were advocating the use of a design philosophy called skew morphism, Yes, 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:36.640 which is basically making digital stuff look like uh, real 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:41.600 world things. He wondered why and eyebooks the the covers 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.880 of the books appear on a set of wooden shelves, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.400 or or the calendar appears to be made out of 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.840 stitched leather. If you swipe a page and the page 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:53.880 turns like that, skew morphism. Or if you were to 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.800 ever use any kind of it's not just Apple that 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.360 does this, all sorts of companies, but if you were 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:03.800 to use say digital music service, and it presented it 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.600 as if they were vinyl albums kids ask your parents 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.080 on turntables, well, that would be an example of skew 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:15.000 morphism there. There there's some part of that aesthetic philosophy 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.720 that says people are familiar with certain form factors and 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:23.000 they find that reassuring or they find it satisfying when 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:26.720 it's involved. Um. There was an example where they showed 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.640 off a uh An app where they were deleting a 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.480 file and the deleting portion ended up looking like a 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.320 piece of paper going through a paper shredder, and the 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.400 critic I read said, how many people in that audience 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.720 have never seen a paper shredder? And I'm thinking, aren't 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:50.080 those still things? I mean, I never mind anyway, but 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.520 that that's that's skew morphism. And that was that was 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.760 kind of four stalls, uh philosophy. He's he liked including 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.439 that kind of stuff in design. Well, we have a 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.880 trash cans or recycled bins on our desktops or or 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.440 the desktop period to think of it as the top 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.440 of your desk with a stack of documents on it 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.240 or documents on it. Um. So yeah, I mean this 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.000 is but but the skei morphism that that we're talking 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.400 about sort of it it has a range and on 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.880 on one hand it's sort of a you know, just 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.559 an idea, and at the other end, it's actually going 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.800 so far as to add the stitching or you know, 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:33.040 the grain of the leather or something like that. And um, 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:36.600 some people that really rubs the wrong way. For example, 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:41.360 Sir Jonathan I've yes, Sir Jonathan, I've is a designer 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.720 at Apple, famous, famous designer obviously, and he's got a knighthood, 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.840 so clearly he's got some fame going on. Um. But anyway, 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.800 it's because you know, hey, if you're a night, you're 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:57.920 pretty famous. That's true, at least in certain circles. Look, 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.280 I am just saying I haven't reached the hall of 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.720 fame where I've been knighted yet, But your majesty, I'm 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.720 here and I'm waiting. You know, I'm just as an aside. 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:10.160 I've never figured out how he designs stuff with the 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.600 visor on his helmet down because it little flips. You know, 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:16.559 it's hard to see the screen. All of Apple's stuff 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:20.239 looks like it's meant for jousters. Um no, he he. 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.000 He's famous for designing a lot of the form factors 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.920 that make Apple what it is today. Like when you 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.960 look at a lot of Apple's products, the reason they 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:34.040 look the way they do is in part due to 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.480 Jonathan I've. And that's that's why a lot of them look. 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.560 They have a similarity to one another. Yeah, it's got 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.800 got sort of a cohesion along their product line. So 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:49.640 Jonathan I've does not so well, let me not put 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:55.520 words into his mouth from what from Yeah, well, you 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.200 know me, it's probably you know, I just pick up 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.560 dictionaries lying anywhere. Know. According to a lot of the 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:07.080 news reports, I read I've is not a fan of 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:11.040 this design philosophy. He prefers to leave those elements out 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.520 and to not have that clutter up his design, and 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.640 he doesn't necessarily think that it's relevant or that it 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.400 adds anything to the experience. And so you have these 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:25.560 fundamental differences in philosophy, and uh, something's got to give. 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.120 And eventually it turned out that it was going to 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.240 be for Stall. For for stalls position that would give 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.559 um he was essentially there was an announcement that was 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.319 said that he was going to leave his role move 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.640 into an advisory capacity, and then sometime in the year 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:48.800 he would actually leave Apple entirely. Now um I've is 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.840 taking over the human Interface team, which is part of 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.079 what for Stall was seeing. So that pretty much answers 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.560 that question about that whole design philosophy argument. Yeah, well, 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.920 they're our sources that have been quoted, um indirectly again 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.640 because they don't want to be uh, you know, have 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.080 their names attached to these things. But there are there 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.120 are sources who have told different news outlets and I've 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.720 because I've seen it in more than one place that uh, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:21.440 I've and forced all had stopped getting along so well. Um, 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.880 I get the sense that they were they were pretty 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.760 compatible at one point, but that it had they had 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.920 been growing apart in philosophy to the point where I've 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.080 seen more than one news article that suggested that they 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.920 wouldn't even attend each other's meetings anymore because they had 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:42.200 become so distant. Um, at least in the workplace. I 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.880 don't know. Yeah, and and yeah, I've I've read similar things. 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.520 And there's also been quite a few reports saying that 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:55.520 Forrestall was a pretty demanding and sometimes abrasive person to 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.720 work with, and that that also may have played a 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.320 part in it. Um, So I read I read one 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:06.000 very exhaustive profile on for Stall. It actually was written 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:13.000 before for Stall was leaving, and in that report it 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:17.960 was essentially said that he was um kind of kind 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:19.880 of the person who would say that's not how Steve 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.560 would have wanted it done, and that and that some 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.560 people that Apple feel like that ends up holding the 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.840 company back if you just keep parroting out you know, 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.880 Steve would not have done it this way, And you know, 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:37.560 there's their arguments be made, is Apple, should Apple remain 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.880 the Steve Jobs company should strike out and to have 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.120 its own identity where it was obviously evolved from what 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.880 Steve Jobs wanted. There are arguments to be made on 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.480 both sides. I've seen the same sort of arguments applied 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.640 to the Walt Disney company, where you would have certain 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.880 executives say, you can't just say Walt wouldn't have done 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:58.720 it that way, because if you keep doing that, then 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.520 nothing new happened, whereas other people say, that's you're twisting 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.120 our words. What we're saying is well, would would have 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.760 focused on this sort of thing as opposed to the 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.640 thing you are focused on. And so these kind of 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.200 arguments happen in lots of different companies, particularly you have 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:19.560 a very centralized, iconic kind of founder or leader and 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.000 that person leaves the company, then we see this happen 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:26.360 over and over. Oh sure, sure, And of course, um, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.280 it's difficult to know what somebody like Walt Disney or 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:35.160 Steve Jobs would do in a given situation, because especially 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.560 the longer that goes on, because um, you know, for example, 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.160 with with Disney, you don't know what he would have 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.520 wanted to do with some of the technologies that are 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.960 available now that weren't during his lifetime, and so there 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:52.640 might those factors would obviously change. Of course, Um, Mr 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:57.160 Jobs has not been gone for as long, so it's 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:01.440 it's a little easier to hew closer to his his visions. Um. 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.680 People of course, have pointed to the iPad many as 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.639 an example of something that Steve was quoted as saying 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.400 he didn't want, and hey, look there it is saying 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.240 that he would never ever do that, and then it happened. 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.960 So um, you know, I I think it's uh trying 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.120 to hit that middle ground. I mean, that's my personal 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:20.840 feeling on it is you know you kind of look 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.800 at that and say, Okay, well maybe he wouldn't necessarily, 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:27.239 but taking these things into an account, maybe I don't know. 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.160 So Um. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I've seen 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:35.200 um Forstall's name suggested as the quote unquote closest thing 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:39.119 to Steve Jobs that Apple still had. Um. Actually the 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.880 same has been said for Mr Sonofsky for Microsoft, which 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.920 is one of the similarities. But yeah, apparently he was. Uh. 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.280 People on the outside the media have been saying, you know, 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.320 this is not good. He was, you know for Stall 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.160 as a leader. Uh, he has somebody that that has 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.600 a lot to do with the Apple d NA and 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:04.640 a lot of people ding dong the witch is dead right, Well, 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.480 he was. He was a guy who was very passionate 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:12.520 about arguing to adapt the mac os so that that 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.199 would serve as the foundation for iOS as opposed to 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:21.520 creating an embedded uh OS just for mobile devices. He 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.600 wanted to he wanted to have a more robust operating 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.760 system that was related to the desktop system. He did 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.400 not want it to go the iPod route, not iPod Touch, 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.560 but the other iPods which have you know, an embedded 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.480 specific operating system just for those devices that doesn't really 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:43.560 have much of a relationship with the desktop version. Yeah, 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.280 there's there's no shared look and feel yea. So he 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.159 he was one of those people who really argued for 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.600 that uh and his his responsibilities will go to more 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.320 than just Jonathan. I've Eddie Q will take on some 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.560 of the responsibility. He's going to be heading up departments 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:02.880 that are overseeing things like Siri and Maps, which those 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:08.960 are two of the products that had some criticisms directed 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.560 at them. Siri when it first came out, everyone I thought, 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:16.880 everyone I knew who played with Siri was initially very 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.879 much impressed, and it became less so the more they 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:24.160 used it until about a few months ago in twelve, 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.720 like sometime around September October twelve, when siries started to 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.880 seem to improve. Uh. And then of course maps had 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:35.080 that same sort of initial problem. UH. And then you've 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:40.119 also got Craig fed Federighi, which I could be totally 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.240 mispronouncing his name in case I do apologize, But he 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.639 will be leading both the iOS and O S X 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:50.600 side of the R S ten I know, I if 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.920 they don't use Roman numerals, people call I X I, 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.560 I call I x I. Um they yeah, so OS 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:03.480 ten um. But yeah, he'll be overseeing both of those departments. Um. 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:08.280 So that's where four stalls responsibilities are going to go 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:13.160 to while he is what are you just doing the math? 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.680 I was just wondering. I was wondering where that came from. 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:21.959 What I X I I hercules anyway, disneys hercules? Um. 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.840 So so yeah, that wasn't That wasn't just I wish 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:26.840 I were witty enough to have come up with that 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:31.640 on the fly. So anyway, Yeah, there are people who 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.560 have a lot of experience at Apple who will be 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:40.080 picking up his duties. Now, the question is how smooth 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.399 the transition is it going to be. You know, it 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.320 may very well be that we won't see a huge change, 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.320 But it is kind of interesting that this happened shortly 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:53.800 after Apple had had its big event unveiling things like 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.640 the iPhone five and the iPad, the new the new 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.919 iPad and also the iPad Mini. For all of that 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.600 to happen, and then for the guy who's essentially in 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:08.120 charge of all that stuff get kind of pushed off, 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.439 that was a big story, which then brings us to 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:15.119 our second person we're chatting about today, Steven Snowsky. Yeah, 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.640 and I wanted to make one point, but we can 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.600 still use this as a transition because both this is 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.600 another way in which these two guys are similar. UM. Now, 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.520 of course, uh Mr Sinofsky has his UM has had 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:29.920 the same kinds of things. He's the the Steve, the 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:34.160 closest thing they have to Steve jobs, etcetera, etcetera. And 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:38.200 and they had similar personalities and that there are conflicts 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.639 between different groups. But UM, one of the things the 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.359 media has said again about both of these guys is that, 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:48.800 uh they had UM, they had a devoted group of 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:53.520 followers within their company. UM. And UH, I think that 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:56.800 in in the case of again both of these guys, 0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:00.840 this could prove to be a problem because while there 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.880 are people who are saying, holy cow, this is great. 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:05.879 I am so glad that he's not going to be 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.879 here anymore, there are a lot of people are saying, dude, 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.080 this guy, are you gotta be kidding me? He was 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.359 a visionary and in both cases, In both cases I 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:22.400 read about how the people working directly for these two 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.000 men were often the ones who felt like they were 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:29.359 working the hardest of the whole company. But some people 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:33.080 thrive on that. So there are folks, well, we don't 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:36.080 mean to suggest that both of these guys or either 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:39.800 of them were you reviled within their own companies. There 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:43.760 were people who were very much supporters of of what 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.960 they did, and there's their work style, saying, look, these 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:49.919 guys get results. So and in fact, you know, you 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.960 can if you look at the revenues for Apple and 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.959 you look at how well those mobile devices did, you 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:58.600 can't argue that. I mean, for Stall clearly had a 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:00.800 big you know, he had a lot to do with that, 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.520 and so uh, it's clear that he had a very 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:07.480 important role at the company. Sonofsky, same thing he was 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:10.240 he was the president of the Windows Division at Microsoft 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:15.120 until mid November two thousand and twelve. Now he uh, 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:19.720 he came in before I guess, in between Vista and 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.119 Windows seven, so as the president of Windows. Yes, right, 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.080 so he had a lot to do with the Windows 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:28.800 seven yes improvements. Yeah, yeah, he came in. Uh, he 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:31.880 came in as the leader of the Windows division right 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:35.400 when Microsoft was really struggling. Because if you don't remember 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.800 when Windows Vista came out, it initially had a lot 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:46.120 of problems and mostly things like driver compatibility, device driver compatibility, 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:50.120 software compatibility. Uh. There were also some just some user 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.640 interface stuff that was rubbing people the wrong way. Plus uh, 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:57.040 some of the Windows user interface stuff. The new stuff 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.760 was a real processor suck. It was using a lot 0:24:00.800 --> 0:24:03.040 of computing power and people were complaining about that, right, 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:04.840 people saying like, well, why do I need all these 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:07.480 bells and whistles. I just want an operating system that 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:10.800 gives me access to the applications I actually want to run. 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:13.080 I don't want my operating system to be taking up 0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:17.160 all the computer assets so that my processes don't run anymore. 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:22.080 That's very irritating. The ironic thing for me is that, 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:25.000 you know, that the design was one of one of 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:27.159 the things that they were trying to make it look nicer, 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:30.600 and people were complaining about the design. It's like, who 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:34.000 are they trying to be Apple? Yeah, yeah, we see 0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:36.280 that kind of stuff all the time. Well, Snowski came 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:39.000 in to head the Windows division. He had actually been 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:44.560 working for Microsoft since he started as a software design engineer. 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.600