1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: stuff What's dot Com? Hello everybody, and welcome to tech Stuff. 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: My name is Chris Polettin. I'm an editor at how 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: Stuff works dot com. Sitting across from me as usual 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: as senior writer Jonathan Strickland. Hey there, so, um so, 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: there's been some interesting news in technology towards the end 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: of two thousand twelve. We're seeing some some big changes 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: coming along at the executive level with a couple of 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: notable companies. Those notable companies being Apple and Microsoft. Of course, 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: we're seeing changes at other companies as well, but we 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: wanted to specifically talk about those two companies and uh 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: two of the executives that have been playing a very 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: large role in products at those companies and and what 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: their departure might mean. Yeah, that that's correct. As a 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: matter of fact, there are more than just on the surface. 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: It appears that there are surf this m I walked 17 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: into that one. Uh yeah, yeah, there are some quite 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: a few similarities between the two the two main people 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: were going to talk about um today and uh in 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: in kind of striking ways because the proximity or the 21 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: the time, the closeness and time between the two departure 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: has led a lot of UH analysts to look at 23 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: the similarities and differences between them and it's and it's 24 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: really kind of amazing. Yeah. The two people were speaking 25 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: of specifically are Scott Forstall, formerly of Apple and Steven 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: Snowski formerly of Microsoft. Actually, I should say Forestall currently 27 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: is still with Apple, but in an advisory capacity, not 28 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: an executive capacity. But at any rate, both of these 29 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: these gentlemen were high level executives with their respective companies. 30 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: Both of them had had not long before the announced 31 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: parture of the of each of them had been on 32 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: stage revealing products, big, big products for their respective companies. 33 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: Both men had been with their respective companies for many years. Uh. 34 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: In the case, well, well let's start with Scott Forestall. 35 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: Then he was the one who was announced that he'd 36 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: be leaving Apple earlier. I mean that was in the 37 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: end of October two thousand twelve when that announcement came out. 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: That's right, he and John Browitt both at the same 39 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: time Apple announced that the two would be leaving the company. Now, 40 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: Mr Browitt is or uh you know, known for the 41 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: Apple retail presence, right, and he had not been in 42 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: that position for very long. Tim Cook apparently felt that 43 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: it was just a bad fit. That it was, it 44 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: was a bad higher and for that particular role. And 45 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: so that was Browitt leaving. But whereas Brown had not 46 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: been with a company for very long, Forrestall had been 47 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: with the company. Actually had been. Steve Jobs is on. 48 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: Steve was his team way back in the Next Incorporated days, 49 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: and his role at Apple. I don't think I actually 50 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: mentioned it was senior vice president of iOS software. So 51 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about the big big stuff mobile iPhone, iPad, 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: that kind of thing that I bod touch and is 53 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: the operating system and and those mobile devices account for 54 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: about seventy percent of Apple's revenue. So that's that's like, yeah, 55 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: it is hard to exaggerate that that how important that is, 56 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: especially when you start looking at those sales figures. Well, 57 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: Forrestall had been with Apple since Apple acquired Next Incorporated. 58 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: And I guess we can do just a real quick 59 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: summary of that for those who have not listened to 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: our episodes about Steve Jobs. Um. So, Steve Jobs had 61 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: left Apple after having some friction with the top level 62 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: executives at that time, and went on to found a 63 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: different company called Next in Core Rated, mainly trying to 64 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: develop computers for educational purposes. Uh. And then Apple once 65 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: it started to really suffer financially. I mean Apple was 66 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: in dire straits and not the band. Yeah, they were. 67 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: They were frequently mentioned with the word beleaguered in front 68 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: of their name. They suggested that they were on a 69 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: sinking ship. Yes, they certainly did not have money for nothing, 70 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: but they ended up acquiring They purchased the company Next Incorporated, 71 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: and a lot of people said at the time that 72 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: they were really buying Steve Jobs back. They weren't buying 73 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: the company so much as they were trying to get 74 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs back into the fold at Apple, and Steve 75 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: Jobs ended up taking over as a an inter rom 76 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: CEO and then eventually became this the full time CEO 77 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: of Apple and on his team at Next Incorporated with 78 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: Scott Forstall, who had worked for Next Incorporated straight out 79 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: of college. So Uh Forrestall joined Next Incorporate and he 80 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: came over with Apple UH to Apple when Apple purchased 81 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 1: Next Incorporated and began to work at various departments and 82 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: was was known for being a passionate member of the 83 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: executive team. UM. He was the youngest executive over at 84 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: Apple at the time that he was asked to leave, 85 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: and um, yeah, it was an interesting he was an 86 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: interesting personality over an Apple. One of the things that 87 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: I read, one of the reasons I read that he 88 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: had been asked to leave, uh, had more to do 89 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: with personality issues than anything else. Um. Now we can 90 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: say that this year two thousand twelve, when they did 91 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: announce a lot of the changes to iOS as well 92 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: as the new iPhone, there were some some hiccups in that, 93 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: the main one being I have no idea where I 94 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: am right now because my Maps app tells me that 95 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,679 Speaker 1: the bridge I'm looking at is actually two miles away. Yeah. 96 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: The nice um. Yeah. The the the maps application for 97 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: the iOS devices has been uh, to to put it, bluntly, 98 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: picked on for its inaccuracies. There there are many problems 99 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: with it. Um. And Apple has um you know, and 100 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: its typical fashion sort of at first pretended that that 101 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: wasn't the case and then basically saying, well, we goofed 102 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: it like your first it was you're traveling wrong, yeah, 103 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: And then it was okay, maybe this isn't as fully 104 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: baked as we had hoped. And in fact I mean, 105 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: this was This was big news when it happened. Happened 106 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: Tim Cook. When it happened, Uh, yeah, someone needs some coffee. 107 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: CEO Tim Cook issued an apology for the Maps app 108 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: for for how it was not performing up to their standards. 109 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: This was a big deal because Apple never apologizes, Um, 110 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: very rarely apologizes. Yeah, it's when I say never. It 111 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: is an exaggeration, but it lightly yeah only yeah, just barely. 112 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: Well anyway, One of the things I read, which may 113 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: or may not be true, was from the Wall Street Journal, 114 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 1: which suggested that Tim Cook wanted for Stall to sign 115 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: the apology letter because Forrestall was the guy who was 116 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: in charge of iOS, and Forstall said nothing doing ain't 117 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: gonna do it. That's not how Steve Jobs do it. 118 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: That's not how I'm going to do it. And um, 119 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: and that might have been one of the flags raised 120 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: at the executive level with Forstall was that, you know, 121 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: he he was unwilling to sign his name to an apology, 122 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: and Tim Cook ended up signing his own name to 123 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: the apology and issuing it out. Now whether or not 124 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: that's true is impossible for us to say, because this 125 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: is all based on what various Apple employees have said 126 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: to the press, but there's never been an official statement, 127 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: and you wouldn't expect one to come out like you 128 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't expect Tim Cook to say, well, I wanted him 129 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: to sign us and he didn't, so I fired him. 130 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: That that probably would never, in any sane world ever 131 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: be said. Yeah, although the New York Times did UH 132 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: did also make that argument. Yes, um yeah, And in 133 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: an article on the bits blog, Nick Wingfield and Nick 134 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: Bilton UH said that that had also been told to 135 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: them as well. Um, and I haven't heard, for that matter, 136 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: I haven't heard an Apple executive deny it formally. Um. So, 137 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: so yeah, there may be there may be some fire 138 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: with that smoke. Well, and and it's possible to that 139 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: that it could be a combination of all of these factors. Yeah. 140 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: I don't mean to suggest that one flubbed app was 141 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: enough to you to oust an executive who had been 142 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: with the company for so long. In fact, there were 143 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: other issues. There was one that apparently there was a 144 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: philosophical debate that centers around the idea of design at Apple, 145 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: and there were two sides, two main sides to this battle. 146 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: On one side, you had people like Scott Forstall, who 147 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: were advocating the use of a design philosophy called skew morphism, Yes, 148 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: which is basically making digital stuff look like uh, real 149 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: world things. He wondered why and eyebooks the the covers 150 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: of the books appear on a set of wooden shelves, 151 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: or or the calendar appears to be made out of 152 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: stitched leather. If you swipe a page and the page 153 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: turns like that, skew morphism. Or if you were to 154 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: ever use any kind of it's not just Apple that 155 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: does this, all sorts of companies, but if you were 156 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: to use say digital music service, and it presented it 157 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: as if they were vinyl albums kids ask your parents 158 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: on turntables, well, that would be an example of skew 159 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: morphism there. There there's some part of that aesthetic philosophy 160 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: that says people are familiar with certain form factors and 161 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: they find that reassuring or they find it satisfying when 162 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: it's involved. Um. There was an example where they showed 163 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: off a uh An app where they were deleting a 164 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: file and the deleting portion ended up looking like a 165 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: piece of paper going through a paper shredder, and the 166 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: critic I read said, how many people in that audience 167 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: have never seen a paper shredder? And I'm thinking, aren't 168 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: those still things? I mean, I never mind anyway, but 169 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: that that's that's skew morphism. And that was that was 170 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: kind of four stalls, uh philosophy. He's he liked including 171 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff in design. Well, we have a 172 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: trash cans or recycled bins on our desktops or or 173 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: the desktop period to think of it as the top 174 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: of your desk with a stack of documents on it 175 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: or documents on it. Um. So yeah, I mean this 176 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: is but but the skei morphism that that we're talking 177 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: about sort of it it has a range and on 178 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: on one hand it's sort of a you know, just 179 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: an idea, and at the other end, it's actually going 180 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: so far as to add the stitching or you know, 181 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: the grain of the leather or something like that. And um, 182 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: some people that really rubs the wrong way. For example, 183 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: Sir Jonathan I've yes, Sir Jonathan, I've is a designer 184 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: at Apple, famous, famous designer obviously, and he's got a knighthood, 185 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: so clearly he's got some fame going on. Um. But anyway, 186 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: it's because you know, hey, if you're a night, you're 187 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: pretty famous. That's true, at least in certain circles. Look, 188 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: I am just saying I haven't reached the hall of 189 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: fame where I've been knighted yet, But your majesty, I'm 190 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: here and I'm waiting. You know, I'm just as an aside. 191 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: I've never figured out how he designs stuff with the 192 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: visor on his helmet down because it little flips. You know, 193 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: it's hard to see the screen. All of Apple's stuff 194 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,239 Speaker 1: looks like it's meant for jousters. Um no, he he. 195 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: He's famous for designing a lot of the form factors 196 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: that make Apple what it is today. Like when you 197 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: look at a lot of Apple's products, the reason they 198 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: look the way they do is in part due to 199 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: Jonathan I've. And that's that's why a lot of them look. 200 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: They have a similarity to one another. Yeah, it's got 201 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: got sort of a cohesion along their product line. So 202 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: Jonathan I've does not so well, let me not put 203 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: words into his mouth from what from Yeah, well, you 204 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: know me, it's probably you know, I just pick up 205 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: dictionaries lying anywhere. Know. According to a lot of the 206 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: news reports, I read I've is not a fan of 207 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: this design philosophy. He prefers to leave those elements out 208 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: and to not have that clutter up his design, and 209 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: he doesn't necessarily think that it's relevant or that it 210 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: adds anything to the experience. And so you have these 211 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: fundamental differences in philosophy, and uh, something's got to give. 212 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: And eventually it turned out that it was going to 213 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: be for Stall. For for stalls position that would give 214 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: um he was essentially there was an announcement that was 215 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: said that he was going to leave his role move 216 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: into an advisory capacity, and then sometime in the year 217 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: he would actually leave Apple entirely. Now um I've is 218 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: taking over the human Interface team, which is part of 219 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: what for Stall was seeing. So that pretty much answers 220 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: that question about that whole design philosophy argument. Yeah, well, 221 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: they're our sources that have been quoted, um indirectly again 222 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: because they don't want to be uh, you know, have 223 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: their names attached to these things. But there are there 224 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: are sources who have told different news outlets and I've 225 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: because I've seen it in more than one place that uh, 226 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: I've and forced all had stopped getting along so well. Um, 227 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: I get the sense that they were they were pretty 228 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: compatible at one point, but that it had they had 229 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: been growing apart in philosophy to the point where I've 230 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: seen more than one news article that suggested that they 231 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't even attend each other's meetings anymore because they had 232 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: become so distant. Um, at least in the workplace. I 233 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, and and yeah, I've I've read similar things. 234 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: And there's also been quite a few reports saying that 235 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: Forrestall was a pretty demanding and sometimes abrasive person to 236 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: work with, and that that also may have played a 237 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: part in it. Um, So I read I read one 238 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: very exhaustive profile on for Stall. It actually was written 239 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: before for Stall was leaving, and in that report it 240 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: was essentially said that he was um kind of kind 241 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: of the person who would say that's not how Steve 242 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: would have wanted it done, and that and that some 243 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: people that Apple feel like that ends up holding the 244 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: company back if you just keep parroting out you know, 245 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: Steve would not have done it this way, And you know, 246 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: there's their arguments be made, is Apple, should Apple remain 247 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: the Steve Jobs company should strike out and to have 248 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: its own identity where it was obviously evolved from what 249 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs wanted. There are arguments to be made on 250 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: both sides. I've seen the same sort of arguments applied 251 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: to the Walt Disney company, where you would have certain 252 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: executives say, you can't just say Walt wouldn't have done 253 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: it that way, because if you keep doing that, then 254 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: nothing new happened, whereas other people say, that's you're twisting 255 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: our words. What we're saying is well, would would have 256 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: focused on this sort of thing as opposed to the 257 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: thing you are focused on. And so these kind of 258 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: arguments happen in lots of different companies, particularly you have 259 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: a very centralized, iconic kind of founder or leader and 260 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: that person leaves the company, then we see this happen 261 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: over and over. Oh sure, sure, And of course, um, 262 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: it's difficult to know what somebody like Walt Disney or 263 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs would do in a given situation, because especially 264 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: the longer that goes on, because um, you know, for example, 265 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: with with Disney, you don't know what he would have 266 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: wanted to do with some of the technologies that are 267 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: available now that weren't during his lifetime, and so there 268 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: might those factors would obviously change. Of course, Um, Mr 269 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: Jobs has not been gone for as long, so it's 270 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: it's a little easier to hew closer to his his visions. Um. 271 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: People of course, have pointed to the iPad many as 272 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: an example of something that Steve was quoted as saying 273 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: he didn't want, and hey, look there it is saying 274 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: that he would never ever do that, and then it happened. 275 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: So um, you know, I I think it's uh trying 276 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 1: to hit that middle ground. I mean, that's my personal 277 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: feeling on it is you know you kind of look 278 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: at that and say, Okay, well maybe he wouldn't necessarily, 279 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,239 Speaker 1: but taking these things into an account, maybe I don't know. 280 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: So Um. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I've seen 281 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: um Forstall's name suggested as the quote unquote closest thing 282 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: to Steve Jobs that Apple still had. Um. Actually the 283 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: same has been said for Mr Sonofsky for Microsoft, which 284 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: is one of the similarities. But yeah, apparently he was. Uh. 285 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: People on the outside the media have been saying, you know, 286 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: this is not good. He was, you know for Stall 287 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: as a leader. Uh, he has somebody that that has 288 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: a lot to do with the Apple d NA and 289 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people ding dong the witch is dead right, Well, 290 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: he was. He was a guy who was very passionate 291 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: about arguing to adapt the mac os so that that 292 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: would serve as the foundation for iOS as opposed to 293 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: creating an embedded uh OS just for mobile devices. He 294 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: wanted to he wanted to have a more robust operating 295 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: system that was related to the desktop system. He did 296 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: not want it to go the iPod route, not iPod Touch, 297 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: but the other iPods which have you know, an embedded 298 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: specific operating system just for those devices that doesn't really 299 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: have much of a relationship with the desktop version. Yeah, 300 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: there's there's no shared look and feel yea. So he 301 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: he was one of those people who really argued for 302 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: that uh and his his responsibilities will go to more 303 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: than just Jonathan. I've Eddie Q will take on some 304 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: of the responsibility. He's going to be heading up departments 305 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: that are overseeing things like Siri and Maps, which those 306 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: are two of the products that had some criticisms directed 307 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: at them. Siri when it first came out, everyone I thought, 308 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: everyone I knew who played with Siri was initially very 309 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: much impressed, and it became less so the more they 310 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: used it until about a few months ago in twelve, 311 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: like sometime around September October twelve, when siries started to 312 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: seem to improve. Uh. And then of course maps had 313 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: that same sort of initial problem. UH. And then you've 314 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: also got Craig fed Federighi, which I could be totally 315 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: mispronouncing his name in case I do apologize, But he 316 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: will be leading both the iOS and O S X 317 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: side of the R S ten I know, I if 318 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: they don't use Roman numerals, people call I X I, 319 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: I call I x I. Um they yeah, so OS 320 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: ten um. But yeah, he'll be overseeing both of those departments. Um. 321 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: So that's where four stalls responsibilities are going to go 322 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: to while he is what are you just doing the math? 323 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: I was just wondering. I was wondering where that came from. 324 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 1: What I X I I hercules anyway, disneys hercules? Um. 325 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: So so yeah, that wasn't That wasn't just I wish 326 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: I were witty enough to have come up with that 327 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: on the fly. So anyway, Yeah, there are people who 328 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: have a lot of experience at Apple who will be 329 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: picking up his duties. Now, the question is how smooth 330 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: the transition is it going to be. You know, it 331 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: may very well be that we won't see a huge change, 332 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: But it is kind of interesting that this happened shortly 333 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: after Apple had had its big event unveiling things like 334 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: the iPhone five and the iPad, the new the new 335 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: iPad and also the iPad Mini. For all of that 336 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: to happen, and then for the guy who's essentially in 337 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: charge of all that stuff get kind of pushed off, 338 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: that was a big story, which then brings us to 339 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: our second person we're chatting about today, Steven Snowsky. Yeah, 340 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: and I wanted to make one point, but we can 341 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: still use this as a transition because both this is 342 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: another way in which these two guys are similar. UM. Now, 343 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: of course, uh Mr Sinofsky has his UM has had 344 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: the same kinds of things. He's the the Steve, the 345 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: closest thing they have to Steve jobs, etcetera, etcetera. And 346 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: and they had similar personalities and that there are conflicts 347 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: between different groups. But UM, one of the things the 348 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: media has said again about both of these guys is that, 349 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: uh they had UM, they had a devoted group of 350 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: followers within their company. UM. And UH, I think that 351 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: in in the case of again both of these guys, 352 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: this could prove to be a problem because while there 353 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: are people who are saying, holy cow, this is great. 354 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: I am so glad that he's not going to be 355 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: here anymore, there are a lot of people are saying, dude, 356 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: this guy, are you gotta be kidding me? He was 357 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: a visionary and in both cases, In both cases I 358 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: read about how the people working directly for these two 359 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: men were often the ones who felt like they were 360 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: working the hardest of the whole company. But some people 361 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: thrive on that. So there are folks, well, we don't 362 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: mean to suggest that both of these guys or either 363 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: of them were you reviled within their own companies. There 364 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: were people who were very much supporters of of what 365 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: they did, and there's their work style, saying, look, these 366 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: guys get results. So and in fact, you know, you 367 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: can if you look at the revenues for Apple and 368 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,959 Speaker 1: you look at how well those mobile devices did, you 369 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: can't argue that. I mean, for Stall clearly had a 370 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: big you know, he had a lot to do with that, 371 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: and so uh, it's clear that he had a very 372 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: important role at the company. Sonofsky, same thing he was 373 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: he was the president of the Windows Division at Microsoft 374 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: until mid November two thousand and twelve. Now he uh, 375 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: he came in before I guess, in between Vista and 376 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: Windows seven, so as the president of Windows. Yes, right, 377 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: so he had a lot to do with the Windows 378 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: seven yes improvements. Yeah, yeah, he came in. Uh, he 379 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: came in as the leader of the Windows division right 380 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: when Microsoft was really struggling. Because if you don't remember 381 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: when Windows Vista came out, it initially had a lot 382 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: of problems and mostly things like driver compatibility, device driver compatibility, 383 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: software compatibility. Uh. There were also some just some user 384 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: interface stuff that was rubbing people the wrong way. Plus uh, 385 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: some of the Windows user interface stuff. The new stuff 386 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: was a real processor suck. It was using a lot 387 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: of computing power and people were complaining about that, right, 388 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: people saying like, well, why do I need all these 389 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: bells and whistles. I just want an operating system that 390 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: gives me access to the applications I actually want to run. 391 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: I don't want my operating system to be taking up 392 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: all the computer assets so that my processes don't run anymore. 393 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: That's very irritating. The ironic thing for me is that, 394 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, that the design was one of one of 395 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: the things that they were trying to make it look nicer, 396 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: and people were complaining about the design. It's like, who 397 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: are they trying to be Apple? Yeah, yeah, we see 398 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff all the time. Well, Snowski came 399 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: in to head the Windows division. He had actually been 400 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: working for Microsoft since he started as a software design engineer. 401 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: Uh he came he had a master's degree in computer 402 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: science from the University of Massachusetts and uh then he 403 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: went from being a software design engineer to becoming the 404 00:24:55,280 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: technical assistant for Bill Gates. You may have heard of him. 405 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: Name sounds familiar. So that's ten years after he joined. 406 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: He became the senior vice president of the Office division. 407 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: Not the Microsoft office as in the physical place where 408 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: they work, but rather the software suite office like word, 409 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: power point, that kind of stuff. I figured. He was 410 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: in charge of making sure that you could watch reruns 411 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: of the office the Office. So he became a head 412 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: of dunder Mifflin in nineteen No. In two thousand and 413 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: six he became the senior vice president of Windows and 414 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: the Windows Life Group, And in two thousand nine that's 415 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 1: when became the president of the Windows Division. Well, he 416 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: helped turn around this perception problem that Microsoft had with 417 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: Windows Vista. Now we should also say Microsoft did a 418 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: lot of work trying to patch and fix Windows Vista, 419 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: and by the end of that cycle of patches, Windows 420 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: Vista was actually not a bad operating system. But the 421 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: the early word, all of those criticisms that were directed 422 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: towards Microsoft really hurt the adoption rate for Vista. Yeah, 423 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: anybody who follows tech, and that's probably just about everybody 424 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: listening to us right now, we all know that there's 425 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: this thing about getting whatever it is, a gadget, an 426 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: operating system, whatever, right after it comes out, because hey, 427 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: you know it's cool, we want a new we want 428 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: the newest, we want the best stuff. It's just a thing. 429 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: Um And uh yeah, I mean all the people who 430 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: rushed out to buy Vista, it wasn't quite baked enough. 431 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: It was kind of soft and squishy in the middle. 432 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: And even Microsoft has said pretty much the same thing. 433 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: They said that, you know, they the part of the 434 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: problems were the fact that it was rushed through development 435 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: and it was rushed into production, and that it probably 436 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: could have waited a while longer before launching. But I mean, 437 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: they had a lot of pressures on them at the 438 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: same time. I mean, XP was really starting to show 439 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: its age. Yeah, and then the early adopters too, are 440 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: the ones who a lot of the other people listened to. 441 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: Oh hey, Bill, I know you buy stuff right after 442 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: it comes out. How is it? It's no, it's not good, Ted, 443 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: It's it's really not that great. So I know, I 444 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: just did I just did that in my head. Um, 445 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: but yeah, he said, you know dude, Um whoa. But yeah, 446 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: I mean that word of mouth spread and UH and 447 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: and damaged the relief of Vista, and they had a 448 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: real problem. They they found themselves going, well, how are 449 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: we going to generate the right word of mouth? And 450 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: they said, well, let's let's do this with the next release. 451 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: So Sunofski, you know, he's the head of Windows at 452 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: this point, and he starts to spearhead the development for 453 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: Windows seven and really pushes for UH to to address 454 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: all the problems that Vista had and to kind of 455 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: head those off and Windows seven. Some people say that 456 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: Windows seven is the upbringting system that Vista was supposed 457 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: to be. Um, that's probably an oversimplification, I think so. 458 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: I think so because there were a lot of things 459 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 1: that changed between Vista and seven. We had a lot 460 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: more developments going on, even just on the Internet side 461 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: of things. But uh so Windows seven comes out and 462 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: it has it receives much more positive reviews on its 463 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: initial release and has a far faster rate of adoption 464 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: than Invested did UM. In fact, as of the recording 465 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: of this podcast, it hasn't been that long since Windows 466 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: seven surpassed Windows XP out in the market share, which 467 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: was a big deal because XP was something that a 468 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: lot of companies were depending upon for you know, a decade, yes, 469 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: and so to make that switch is a big that's 470 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: a that's a big commitment now and um upon the 471 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: announcement that Sinofsky made and and here's one of the differences. 472 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: While Apple itself said that that Forstall would be leaving 473 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: the company, uh, Mr Sinofsky actually said, Hey, I'm leaving 474 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: the company. And uh the uh you know, Steve Balmer, 475 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: the CEO of Microsoft, has said very positive things about 476 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: Mr Sinoff Geeson. You know, hey, he's he's the man, 477 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: he knows what he's doing. This is this is he's 478 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 1: had such a great uh series of accomplishments with the company. 479 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: Were very sorry to see him go. Yeah, there's uh. 480 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: But there's more going on under the surface here, folks. 481 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: For one thing, the timing of his announcement one thing, 482 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: Uh sorry, did I steal that? No? No, No, that's 483 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: a great that's a great way of going into this. 484 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: Microsoft unveils Windows eight and the Surface, so the Surface tablet. 485 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: Both of these are big, big products for Microsoft. The 486 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: Surface tablet, Microsoft might say, is not as important a 487 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: in the grand scheme of things, because they've been positioning 488 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: that as an example of hardware that could run Windows 489 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: eighty and that other manufacturers could build tablets that could 490 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: equal or or exceed the Surface. Yes, it was. It 491 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: was more about a proof of concept. This is a 492 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: scratching the surface. Yes, it's the company line. That's the 493 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: company line. Now. Whether or not that's oh, the genuine 494 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: feeling Microsoft has behind the service tablet, I don't know. 495 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: It could be that they're hoping that this will become 496 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: their version of the iPad um. I can't say, because 497 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: I'm not in those meetings. They won't let me in. 498 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: There was that, and there was the actual unveiling of 499 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: Windows eight and the launch of Windows eight, and then 500 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: Sonofsky and Microsoft cut ties shortly thereafter, and that raised 501 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: a lot of questions. Again, just like Forestall leaving shortly 502 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: after the iPad miny and and iPhone five announcements and 503 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: all that, the timing question comes into play now. Snofsky 504 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: says that during any lull in a product development cycle, 505 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: you tend to stop and take measure of where you 506 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: are and try and decide what you want to do next, 507 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: so that it's a natural thing when a product launches 508 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: and you're at that lull to really think about what 509 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: you're doing. Other people are saying, well, this kind of 510 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: seems weird, because you would think that you would need 511 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: to really nurture and support wind Os eight because it's 512 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: such a huge change for Microsoft. I mean, the the 513 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: user interface of this operating system is an enormous change 514 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: from previous versions of Windows. Yes that you know, even 515 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: even if someone is absolutely loves the Windows eight interface 516 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: as soon as they pick it up, it's communicating that 517 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: to your potential audience and and teaching them about the 518 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: user interface and explaining how it can be used across 519 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: various platforms. That becomes an important role of getting that 520 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: Windows version of Windows adopted wide spread. Right yep, yep, um. So, 521 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: while we talked about Scott Forestall's devotion to Skew morphic design. 522 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: Um the probably the big change in Windows eight from 523 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: previous versions of Windows that Zinowski is uh uh, I 524 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: don't know credited with, but he's associated with the disappearance 525 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: of the start menu option in Windows eight. And I've 526 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: actually seen, Hey, if he's gone, does that mean we 527 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: can have the start menu button back there? There have 528 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: been against I've read some reporters who have you know, 529 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: their work, and I've seen that according to the reporters, 530 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: it seems like Sonofsky's philosophy was if this wasn't a 531 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: feature that I introduced, I don't want it in Windows 532 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: all the way down to perhaps even the structure of 533 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: their file management system, which is huge. That's that's a 534 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: key part of an operating system is how does it 535 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: manage and organize files? And so whether that's true or not, 536 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: I can't say. Again, this is stuff that I've read 537 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: and and you know it's on the internet, so it 538 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: must be true, right, But anyway, the that that's again 539 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: like for Stall Sinofsky, a lot of the reports about 540 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: him have said that he was kind of he was 541 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: kind of difficult to work with at times, that he 542 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: was very demanding, that he could be abrasive. Also, one 543 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: report I read in Bloomberg said that, uh, you know, 544 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: Microsoft was trying to get to this point where they 545 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: wanted to have a a kind of an aligned approach 546 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: with their products so that you would get a similar 547 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: experience going from one thing to another, so Windows Phone 548 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: to Xbox to Windows eight device or whatever. This way, 549 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: he would have a lot of the same features that 550 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: were supported across these platforms, and that you could you 551 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: could support your experience from one platform to the next 552 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: as seamlessly as possible. But that Snofsky was not as 553 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: keen on working with other departments, and that he was 554 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: very focused on his department, but he didn't want to 555 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: necessarily work with anyone else. And in fact, Bloomberg went 556 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: so far as to say that, uh, the environment and 557 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: Microsoft's executive suite resembled something out of Game of Thrones, 558 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: with division heads poaching talent from one another and thwarting 559 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: attempts from other groups to collaborate on products. As an aside, 560 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: I hope it's considerably less bloody than Game of Thrones, 561 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: I hope. So, you know, in the literal sense here, 562 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: what's the iron price for Windows eight? Um? Yeah, it's 563 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,399 Speaker 1: a but, but it made it sound pretty grim that 564 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: the idea that these different divisions were actively trying to 565 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: get talent from other departments for their own benefit and 566 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: at the detriment of the other departments within Microsoft. So 567 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: it's like each division is acting as a competing company 568 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 1: with the other divisions, which is not a great message 569 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: to give when you are talking about an entire company. 570 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: H Q four is coming nice, nice, Uh, it's stark contrast. 571 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: I would say, Uh, I gotta work a Tyrian Lanister 572 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: joke in there somewhere. It'll be a short joke, I promise. 573 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 1: So anyway, Um, yeah, hey I did it, didn't I? So? 574 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: So yeah. Sinofski again very much an important player at Microsoft, 575 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: and and it's it'll be interesting to see where Microsoft 576 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: goes from this point forward, because you know, Windows eight 577 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: is a baby out there in the upgrading system world, 578 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: and uh, it'll be it'll be interesting to see how 579 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: how the company continues to develop and uh and present 580 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: the Windows eight to the market with Sinofsky gone. And 581 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: whether or not that I've seen some questions from people 582 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: asking like, well, does this mean that Microsoft is going 583 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: to do a one eight and move away from the 584 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: Windows eight tiled interface and uh and go back to 585 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: something more traditional with the next release of Windows. And personally, 586 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: I think that that might not be the right message 587 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,399 Speaker 1: to say, wow, you know, because I think Windows eight 588 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: is truly an innovative product. I think I think, I 589 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: think there are a lot of great ideas there, and 590 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: I do think that there is a need to create 591 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: an operating system that can work across multiple platforms because 592 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: more and more of us are using mobile devices for 593 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: our computing, and yet we'll still need to use desktops 594 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: and laptops on occasion. And the more we can meld 595 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: those worlds together so that we could easily work on 596 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: the same stuff no matter which form factor we happen 597 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: to have at our access right then and there, I think, 598 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: the better wealth we are. Yeah, well, there are definitely 599 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: some some similarities in strategy there. The way that Windows 600 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: and the Apple operating systems have been converging, you know, 601 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: between the the computer world and the mobile device world. 602 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: Similarities in the operating systems um that's been increasing over 603 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: the last few years. I think it's a testament to 604 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: the design philosophies of both of these men. Um and 605 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: and Yeah, I mean it's it's going to have an 606 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: impact both on the comp any UH strategies and on 607 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: the company the relations within the departments, whether or not 608 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: there's going to be turf wars and things like that. Um. 609 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: I think it's a little too early to tell that, 610 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: but it could have very you know, very well effected 611 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: the UH corporate culture as well. Definitely, it'll be uh 612 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: probably a little while before we know for sure. But 613 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: and And these are big companies. This is not the 614 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: first time that either company has lost a an executive 615 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: that people thought was you know what was an iconic 616 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: person at that company. Or Jobs and Gates right right, 617 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,280 Speaker 1: Because Gates and Jobs of course are no longer really 618 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: the influence on these companies. I mean there they still 619 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: have influence even though they're no longer directly involved in them, 620 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: because everyone says, well, these companies were founded upon the 621 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: philosophies of their founders, so we want to stay true 622 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: to that to a point, but not to the detriment 623 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: of the success of the company, right right. Well, they proved, 624 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: both of them proved so integral to the success at 625 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 1: the company. UM that you know it. They're legend has 626 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: a lot to do with you know, the way people think, 627 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 1: what am I gonna you know, how would this work 628 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: if he were going to be telling me what to do? 629 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, so it'll be interesting to see the the 630 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: next few months how they unfold for both Apple and Microsoft. 631 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: I would imagine both companies will will you know, have 632 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: a couple of bumps, but they'll get back on track. Uh. 633 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: It'll really be interesting to see a year from now, 634 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 1: or in the case of Microsoft, maybe a few years 635 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: from now when we see the next generation of products 636 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: that would the likely still have quite a few uh 637 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: fingerprints from these guys on them, because you know, they're 638 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: not only phobic from ye. By the development cycles do 639 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: tend to extend well, like by the time a product 640 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: is released, then the succeeding product is already well in 641 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: to develop of it. So you like, when you get 642 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: Windows eight, you can be sure that Microsoft has been 643 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: working on Windows nine for some time. So yeah, same 644 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: thing with iOS and get iOS you get the launch 645 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: of iOS six. You know io S seven has been 646 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: in development for a while as well. It's just the 647 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: way that it works, because if they waited then it 648 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: would take even longer between generations, and that tends to 649 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: not be great for sales. Yeah, and of course, like 650 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: I said, all of us are waiting for the next 651 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,359 Speaker 1: big thing. Yeah, we've kind of, we've kind of It's 652 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: a it's a feedback loop, right, because the companies come 653 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: out with a new thing, we get all excited, We 654 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: go out and we buy the new thing, which then 655 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: pushes the companies to develop the next new things that 656 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: will come out. We'll buy the next new thing, and 657 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: as a cyclogue, it's integral to the company's bottom line. Yep. 658 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: So yeah, we'll see what happens. Guys, if you have 659 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: any suggestions for future topics for tech Stuff podcasts, you 660 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: should let us know. Send us an email all addresses 661 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: tech stuffs at Discovery dot com, or send us a 662 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: message via Twitter or Facebook. You can find us at 663 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: those locations with the handled tech Stuff H S. W 664 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: and Chris and I will talk to you again releasing. 665 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 666 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: how staff works dot com.